How Can I Enjoy Dating? Dating Advice From Therapy Jeff

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How Can I Enjoy Dating? Dating Advice From Therapy Jeff

Podcast: What Your Therapist Thinks
Hosts: Felicia Keller Boyle (C) & Kristie Plantinga (B)
Guest: Jeff Guenther (“Therapy Jeff,” A)
Date: March 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid, playful episode, somatic therapist Felicia Keller Boyle and Best Therapists founder Kristie Plantinga welcome Therapy Jeff (Jeff Guenther)—licensed therapist, social media personality, and author of Big Dating Energy—for a deep dive into all things modern dating. The trio get real about first dates, why dating (especially via apps) feels so draining, and what therapists actually think about common dating dilemmas. Jeff shares both reassuring and unconventional wisdom, Reddit-inspired scenarios, and honest thoughts he sometimes holds back in the therapy room.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Modern Dating: Then Versus Now

• Dating advice in past generations: The hosts and Jeff reminisce about the pre-Internet days of dating, referencing Dear Abby columns and Dr. Drew’s “Loveline” radio show (03:29–05:03).
  • Jeff’s origin story: "So I started like listening to like relationship and sex advice when I was nine years old, sort of like secretly in my bunk bed when I was going to sleep at night." (04:05, A)

The Rise of Internet Experts

• More access to dating advice exists now than ever before, but not all voices are worth trusting.
• Jeff acknowledges influencer Dan Savage as an inspiration—and relates a story about being invited to submit a video to Hump Fest, emphasizing the value of sex-positive spaces (06:44–09:02).

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Why Is Dating So Hard?

• Dating app burnout:
  • The endless scroll on apps produces “micro-rejections,” leading to exhaustion and self-doubt (11:12).
  • Quote: “There’s so many, like, opportunities to feel rejected, and you don’t even know where they’re fucking rejecting you... So there’s so much mystery.” (11:15, A)
• Tech companies profit from keeping users single; the system isn’t set up for real success (10:00–11:00).
• Advice: Only use apps when you feel positive energy—take regular breaks if it’s becoming a chore (11:47).

Finding Joy in Dating

• Keep it playful and authentic:
  • “How can we make it not that hard?... Just sort of like let it be whatever it needs to be… If you can take the pressure off of it, it’s not so incredibly emotionally draining, you know what I mean?” (09:15, A)
• Shift the focus:
  • Instead of worrying if someone likes you, consider if you like them (20:44).
  • Felicia: “When you are talking with other people, don’t worry about whether or not they like you. Be focused on whether or not you like them… That advice has been worth its weight in gold.” (20:44, C)

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First Dates: Tips & Trends

• Low-stakes dates win:
  • Ongoing debate about whether coffee dates are “good enough” for a first date.
  • Jeff’s take: "If you’re spending a lot of money on it, now all of a sudden there’s like, maybe weird expectations or there’s like a power imbalance… So I like to have a very chill first date." (23:21, A)
  • Timestamps: Coffee Date Debate (22:13–24:29)
• Let yourself be yourself:
  • Don’t treat dates like job interviews. Aim for congruence, not performance.
  • If nervous, try to ground yourself—hold a drink with ice, excuse yourself to cool down, or name your anxiety out loud (18:21, A).
• Second date philosophy:
  • Jeff often pre-commits to a second date to take pressure off and get a more accurate impression of his date (21:18, A).

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Where to Meet People (If Not Apps)

• Meeting people in real life—through interests, communities, or friends—is underappreciated.
• “Ask friends to set you up. Let my friends do all the work.” (14:44, A)
• Felicia encourages directness: “I also wasn’t too shy just to ask men out. Like, I would literally just walk up to a stranger and be like, hey, I think you’re cute. Do you want to go out?” (13:36, C)

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Red Flags & Boundaries: What to Watch For

• Major turn-offs/No-go’s:
  • Feeling emotionally unsafe or repeatedly invalidated (25:38, A)
  • Love bombing/future casting (“future thing”), or trauma dumping on a first date
  • How someone treats service staff (27:32, A)
  • Mistaking "performative vulnerability" for genuine connection

Notable Quote

"If you go on the date and there’s something that makes me feel unsafe... if I feel like emotionally unsafe, if I feel like incredibly invalidated, if I’m not feeling seen or understood at all... that’s a pretty big turn off for me.” (25:38, A)

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The “Numbers Game” (Controversial Wisdom)

• Secret therapist thought: Dating is a numbers game. Many people burn out on apps because they're going on too few dates.
  • "If you’re just going on one date every three weeks or every month, that is not enough. Like, go on two or three dates a week if you can, like, mentally, energetically handle it... I have not said that in many years now... but for me, that works." (56:51, A)
• Both hosts agree that depersonalizing dating failures, seeing them as part of the process, helps preserve confidence (58:44–59:21).

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Reddit Q&A: Real-Life Scenarios

1. Drunken Date Disaster [(32:13–38:47)]

• A woman recounts getting drunk, ranting about men in front of her date and his friends, and being abandoned by him after. Hosts and Jeff stress:
  • Her safety was risked; his reaction was a red flag.
  • Self-compassion is needed.
  • “You learned a lesson. You learned about yourself as well. And you can, you know, use this information to grow.” (36:25, A)
  • “If it’s for you, you can’t fuck it up.” (37:18, C)

2. The Flat Earther Boyfriend [(39:13–44:05)]

• Woman discovers her boyfriend of 2 years might be a flat earther.
  • Jeff finds conspiracies fun—until they reflect deep worldview divides: "If it seems like it’s opening a door to who this person really is, that’s when it gets really concerning. And so is it a deal breaker? I would imagine so." (41:23, A)
  • Caution about fringe beliefs being a "gateway" to larger incompatibilities.

3. Beauty & Worth in Dating [(44:18–53:57)]

• 24-year-old woman feels her looks have cost her any chance at love.
  • Both hosts stress empathy and the danger of easy reassurance.
  • Jeff: “If you don’t think you’re super attractive, it doesn’t mean that everybody else is going to think that way as well.” (47:54, A)
  • Felicia: “Attractiveness is really not just like how you look. There are plenty of people who are not conventionally attractive, but they’ve got something.” (50:01, C)
  • Both advise centering friendship, interests, experiences, and grieving unattainable desires if needed, while recognizing confidence can itself be attractive.

Notable Listener Comment

“I’m ugly, but have never had a problem attracting male attention. I’m like a pug. Hideous and gross, but the people who are into me are really into me.” (54:27, Reddit top comment)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On “blind leading the blind”: “I was just out in the world. Can I say freeballing on this podcast?” (02:48, C)
• On social app fatigue: "The tech companies that built the apps are just, like, trying to make money off of your desperate heart or, like, your horny genitals, right? Like, they don’t actually want you to succeed." (10:22, A)
• On self-judgment/compassion: “Like, if this was your guy, if this was the person you were going to make it happen with, there would have been a way to, like, overcome this… If you can’t make it through this, you’re not going to make it.” (37:23, C)
• On dating confidence: “I love a first date. I think I perform very well on first dates. I’m super fun and sweet and comforting and silly.” (05:27, A)
• On online dating advice: “There’s so many, like, opportunities to feel rejected… There’s so much mystery when it comes to why you’re getting rejected. And, like, how often can you, like, get rejected and still feel okay about yourself?” (11:15, A)
• On deep compatibility: “It’s about connecting right now and creating the relationship we want right now… I want the relationship that’s good right now, not the shitty relationship right now with the possibility of an amazing relationship later.” (29:13, C)

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Key Timestamps

• Dating advice in past generations / Loveline: 03:29–05:03
• Coffee date debate & low-stakes first dates: 22:13–24:29
• Regulating nerves on a date / being authentic: 17:08–21:18
• Red flags on dates / performative vulnerability: 25:38–29:42
• Reddit: Drunken date regret: 32:13–38:47
• Reddit: The Flat Earther revelation: 39:13–44:05
• Reddit: Self-worth & attractiveness: 44:18–53:57
• Numbers game / Therapist’s “secret” advice: 56:34–59:21

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In Summary

This episode of What Your Therapist Thinks blends sharp humor, vulnerability, and seasoned clinical insight on navigating today’s dating world. Hosts and guest deconstruct dating anxieties, emphasize authenticity, and normalize setbacks, all while encouraging listeners to hold self-worth apart from outcomes. Therapy Jeff delivers both actionable tips (be chill, be brave, keep going) and the kind of raw, real talk rarely voiced in the therapy room but deeply needed by anyone struggling to find love—or fun—in the modern dating minefield.

Transcript

[A]

There's like this trendy debate. Is it okay for a man to ask a woman on a first date that's a coffee date. There's nothing romantic about it. They're not investing enough. It's such a short date. But I like a coffee date. I like making it really low stakes.

[B]

I don't even know how to start this.

[C]

Sorry, I can't get through this attractiveness. It's not just how you look. There are plenty of people who are not conventionally attractive, but they've got something. And obviously that's hard to cultivate when you are feeling insecure.

[A]

Said this a few times as the therapist and I've always gotten really bad feedback, but it's still something, I secretly think.

[C]

If you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, a licensed somatic therapist and clinical advisor at Best Therapists.

[B]

And I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapist and Therapy Connoisseur.

[C]

This is what your therapist thinks. A mental health show where actual therapists open up about real world stories and the questions people wish they could ask them.

[B]

And by real world, we mean Reddit posts incognito, Google searches, and the things you want to bring up in therapy. But maybe you don't.

[C]

You'll hear conversations on everything from the best dating advice to adhd, EMDR therapy,

[B]

body dysmorphia, and more. Sometimes it will make you feel seen

[C]

and sometimes it'll make you laugh out loud.

[B]

We're so glad you're here.

[C]

Now let's get into the episode.

[B]

Today we are joined by Jeff Guenther. Jeff is a licensed professional Therapist with over 20 years of experience in private practice. He has helped thousands of couples and individuals overcome romantic obstacles and thrive in their relationships. Jeff is the creator of the Therapy. Jeff accounts on TikTok and Instagram with more than 4 million followers across all platforms. He hosts the podcast Problem Solved. His expertise has been featured on NPR Time, cnn, Rolling Stone, Business Insider, Morning Brew, and Slate, among others. His book Big Dating Energy is out now and we will link to it in the comments, which is welcome.

[A]

Jeff, Hello. It's good to see you too.

[B]

We are so happy to have you.

[C]

Really could have used this conversation several years ago, but like, you know, honestly still need it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I really wish.

[C]

Activating.

[B]

Yeah. And I really wish I had more of this advice. Dating is really hard. I think is is what it really comes down to. So I'm looking forward to getting some really, really sound advice today for our listeners from the Expert.

[A]

Sure, there must have been like some relationship people or experts that you were like listening to or following years ago when you were younger. Right. Do you remember? Now you're shaking your head. There's nobody that you're listening to.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

My also 20 something year old friends. That's a really great question. And maybe things would have been different had I been looking for resources, but I think I was just out in the world. Just. Can I say freeballing on this podcast?

[B]

I don't know. I was asking my other messy friends. I was like, what are you guys doing? Terrible advice. Right. We're all like, it's blind leading the blind situation. Not good.

[A]

Yeah. There's a lot of people giving advice now, which is probably like more than there ever used to be because of whatever social media we have access to it. But there must have been. Do you remember like, what was there, like Dear Abby columns?

[C]

Yeah, I was just thinking about that.

[A]

Right. That was the thing. I don't know if this was like broadcasted into your world, but do you remember the show Loveline?

[C]

Oh, wait, radio show. Right.

[A]

It was a radio show. I grew up in Los Angeles and it was based in Los angeles that had Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla.

[C]

That is so weird.

[A]

And I started listening to them. It was like a show that came on at 10pm at night. And I was in fourth grade, so I was like nine years old and I started getting relationships.

[C]

Is this your origin story?

[A]

It is.

[C]

This is amazing. No wonder you so good at this.

[A]

So I started like listening to like relationship and sex advice when I was nine years old, sort of like secretly in my bunk bed when I was going to sleep at night. So that's how I learned about a lot. And that's not. That wasn't the best place to learn about relationships and sex, like having this sort of like, I don't know. Do you know who Dr. Drew is?

[C]

Like, the name sounds familiar, but am I getting him mixed up with Drew Carey? That's like a Dr. Oz sounds like a Drew. That can't be.

[B]

You're kind of the Drew Carey that's the wrong.

[C]

This is where we all find out how old everyone is who is on this episode right now?

[A]

I think so. I'm a little older than both of you, I think.

[C]

Well, and I'm a little older than Christy. So we've got like our generations covered.

[A]

There were was relationship advice out there. It was problematic and not okay, but there was something. But I think, like, you, I just asked my friends, my like stupid friends that were Guys that were idiots.

[B]

Yep. Blind leading the blind in the dating world back then, sure. But you already seem more optimistic about it than I am, which is great, and I'm glad we have your voice in this room. But why is dating so hard? Mentally, emotionally. On the spirit.

[A]

I really think you might want to take this one because you're Jeff's.

[C]

Like, I'm having fun.

[A]

What are you talking about? That's the thing. I mean, I'm happy to talk about it, but personally, I love a first date. Like, I love going on first dates. I think I perform very well on first dates. I'm super fun and sweet and comforting and silly. I know how to, like, ask really interesting questions that aren't boring. I can, like, make the vibe really easy. I'm, like, flirty when it feels like you should be flirty. I can, like, read a room really well.

[C]

Teach us your ways. What the hell?

[B]

Yeah, that was one of my questions. How to have a great first date.

[A]

Well, I started listening to Loveline when I was nine years old.

[C]

Damn. Opportunity has passed.

[A]

Yeah. So if you're over 9 years old and you haven't listened to, like, dating, then you're like, you got to start really early is what I'm saying.

[C]

Christy, get Ramy on it now.

[B]

How does one listen to the radio anymore? Is my first question. It's got to sit in the car. A bunch of guys. I don't know.

[A]

I mean, that show has aged really poorly. And Adam, Carolla, and Dr. Drew are just kind of pieces of shit. Like, nobody should actually listen to them right now. However, there is Dan Savage. Do you know who Dan Savage is?

[C]

Amazing. I do know who he is.

[A]

Great.

[C]

Fantastic. Learned about him through Hump Fest.

[A]

Yeah. And he. Oh, my God, Dan Savage. He's also, like, an idol of mine, and he's been. Has had, like, a relationship and sex advice column for, like, 30 years or something. Something crazy. And he's part of the reason that I sort of, like, started my Therapy Jeff accounts. Cause I was like, ah, I just want to be him. I. I have, like, the same progressive views and values and type of advice. And then he. I don't know, he or he noticed me, and then he asked me to be on his podcast, and it was really exciting. And then he was like, I want you to submit a video to Humpfest.

[C]

And I was like, wait, you were in Hump Fest?

[A]

So I was like, this guy wants to see me naked so bad.

[B]

God, lay off. You're obsessed with me.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

And I was like, for Listeners.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

Because speaking for listeners, Hump Fest is something that started in Seattle. So Dan Savage is from Seattle, which means. And I'm in Portland, Oregon. So we get all. Seattle, Portland, you're cousins? Yeah, we love each other and hate each other. So he started this thing called Hump Fest, which was like a long time ago, 15 years ago or something where like normal regular people that aren't porn stars can submit a five minute like pornographic video.

[B]

Oh, to him. I have heard of this.

[A]

Yeah, to him. And then he picks like the 20 best videos. And then back in the day, like 15 years ago, he would like show the videos one time only, like at a theater in Seattle and in Portland. So you could all go to this theater and watch. And then he would take the tapes and he would burn them so that they like don't exist anymore. If you had this little kink of wanting to be seen and wanting to create a porn, I'm like, watch people watch you do it. It's like a really fun. And it's all very sex positive. So I love Humfest, even though some of the videos make me traumatized. But he was like, Dan Savage was like, you gotta submit it. And I was like, well, now it's like he shows it online. Anyone could just screen record it. And then it lives on the Internet forever. And I was like, that doesn't feel anonymous anymore. And everyone's gonna be like, I wanna see therapy. Jeff'. It's like, I want you to see it too, but I don't know if I want everybody.

[B]

4 million people.

[A]

Anyways. Why is dating so hard? Is that why you were asking?

[C]

Yeah, we can get back to that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Seems kind of boring now, but.

[A]

Yeah. Well, personally, I enjoy it and I don't think it's that hard. And that's kind of like what my book starts out is that like I have a lot of fun. I think it's really playful. How can we make it not that hard? And a lot of my book is about like, how do you show up and be like congruent with who, who you are and not be faking it and not be performative and not make it feel like an interview and actually just sort of like let it be whatever it needs to be or however it needs to turn out if you can take the pressure off of it. It's not so incredibly emotionally draining, you know what I mean?

[B]

So kind of take the emotion out of it and maybe just try to make room for more positive ones. Is that a good way to summarize

[A]

yeah, it's easier said than done because, like, sometimes we're going in with a lot of pressure that we're putting on ourselves. But like you mentioned, the thing that's making it really difficult as well is just, like, the apps, right? The apps have turned into what feels like these sort of, like, social media apps, or there's these dopamine hits. Like, if somebody likes you, you get a dopamine hit. If you get a message in response, you get a dopamine hit. In lots of cities, including my city, Portland, Oregon, it feels like you can scroll forever. It's an endless scroll. You'll see people new all the time, every day. So it feels like something that you sort of, like, mindlessly do. And then you go on a date, and if the date isn't great, you're like, well, it doesn't matter. Like, you can always go back on the apps and just keep on scrolling. But the tech companies that built the apps are just, like, trying to make money off of your desperate heart or, like, your horny genitals, right? Like, they don't actually want you to succeed because then they don't get money. So the apps are, like, making dating all fucked up because now we're addicted to continuing to swipe. You know what I mean?

[B]

How can someone try to stay regulated in that kind of environment? I guess it's true for all of these different apps, but I don't know. I think with the dating stuff, it's very much like, am I good enough

[C]

to be, you know, swiped right on?

[A]

It's hard because, like, with the apps, there's so many little and medium rejections. There's lots of little, like, micro rejections. So if you like somebody or send a, like, a cold message to somebody and you don't get a response, you feel a little rejected. If you're, like, messaging back and forth and all of a sudden they just stop and you're kind of ghosted. I guess then you feel rejected. If you go on a first date, you don't get a second date, you feel rejected. There's so many, like, opportunities to feel rejected, and you don't even know where they're fucking rejecting you. Like, they don't have to tell you why they stopped responding to you. Like, you don't have any sort of, like, real relationship where they owe you anything, right? So there's so much mystery when it comes to why you're getting rejected. And, like, how often can you, like, get rejected and still feel okay about yourself? So I would recommend really taking breaks a lot from the dating apps because they can feel just as addictive as any other app on your phone. I think that you should have like mostly positive feeling or energy with the dating apps. If you're like going on and you're just like, oh, this fucking thing again, you're pretty. Probably shouldn't go on, I don't know. How do you feel about that?

[C]

I mean, that's why I eventually stopped using them. So like my initial memory of dating apps was like probably in high school. With match.com it was only for grownups. And then when I moved to San Francisco when I was 25, it was like, okay, Cupid.

[A]

I loved OkCupid. All the questions that you got to

[C]

answer all the questions and you would get to see like how compatible you were. I like dated for so long before I ended up being in a long term relationship. And I hated dating apps the entire time. Like it was so not a good experience. So I was absolutely that person going on them being like, okay, like, I guess this is how we gotta do it. But then eventually I was just like, fuck it, I'm done. And I just was like, I'm just gonna meet people in person. And that had already been happening. Like when I got off the dating apps, luckily for me, I was like pretty active. Like, I had a lot of different interests and I also wasn't too shy just to ask men out. Like, I would literally just walk up to a stranger and be like, hey, I think you're cute. Do you want to go out bold?

[A]

I love that.

[C]

Very confident.

[B]

Which is great.

[C]

I mean, it wasn't always easy, but I, what I found actually because I wasn't creepy about it. That's, that's the thing. I wasn't like gross or creepy about it. I just was like very straightforward. And oftentimes even if people said no, they were like super flattered. Like a lot of men, like have never been asked out by a woman. So they were like, whoa, this is like, thank you. Oh my God. Like I'm, I have a partner. But this is so nice. Thank you.

[A]

I mean, yeah, the alternative is get off the fucking apps and, and meet people.

[B]

Go outside.

[A]

Go outside and do things that you enjoy. Join communities that are like minded or whatever. That's how you'll find people and then be a certain amount of brave and go up to people and flirt with them or ask them out. You can be like straight forward and direct about it. And I remember, I'm old enough to like remember the times where the Dating apps weren't really that popular, and actually they were, like, kind of cringy. Like, I remember Match and eharmony. Eharmony? Is that a fucking cult? What is going on with that site? It feels so weird.

[B]

It does feel that way, having not been a user of it, but I definitely get that. That energy from it.

[A]

I remember going out to, like, shows and bars, like, 20 years ago, having conversations with random people, and it's exhilarating and it's exciting. And most of the time I got rejected, but when I didn't, it was really exciting. So there's that. Like, if the apps feel like a necessary evil, they might not be as necessary as you actually think they are. I've also had a ton of success by asking my friends to set me up with someone they think is a good match. Let my friends do all the work. Ask them to set me up on a blind date. I had a wife for, like, nine years, and we were set up on a blind date with, like, by a mutual friend. And it was such a good match because, like, the friend knew us well and could tell that we'd be a good couple together. So it's. It's also not a bad idea to, like, ask people to do. To do the work for you.

[C]

That's great advice. I really tried to get my friends to do that, but they didn't have a big circle, so they're like, felicia, you are our friend.

[B]

Like, we don't have. Damn it.

[C]

They're friends to introduce you to.

[B]

So my question for both of you, these brave souls that just walk up to people and ask people out, are you extroverts?

[A]

What would you say?

[C]

I don't know. I don't know that I, like, 100% buy into that extrovert, introvert thing.

[B]

That's a hot take.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Go ahead, talk shit. Yeah. Why don't you buy into it?

[C]

So I always thought I was an introvert. Okay. I think I'm largely an introvert. Fine. Like, I. Being with people definitely, like, takes. Takes energy. It usually doesn't, like, increase my energy. It takes energy. And so I do recharge by being by myself. But I think I also was such a shy person growing up. And so as I've gotten older and I've gotten less anxious and I've gotten more courageous. I've had feedback from people so many times that, like, I can talk to anybody, that I'm actually really good at meeting people. And I do enjoy people. And so I think there was a period of time Where I'm like, oh, maybe I am an extrovert, but I think it's just that I'm not super shy anymore. Like, I think I'm a brave introvert is probably what's going on.

[A]

If we want to believe I'm the introvert extrovert of it all, if we're

[C]

going to buy into that whole thing. Yeah. What about you, Jeff?

[A]

On the spectrum, I'm closer to being an extrovert just being out in the world. I love to instantly try to connect with people, so it's happening pretty naturally all the time. But it's something that was more of a skill that I had to hone. I mean, I guess probably all of us were pretty, like, awkward kids or teenagers or something. And because of that, I sort of, like, went into my college years feeling like I didn't really have, like, the ability to spark up a conversation really easily with people, but I wanted to be that person. So I practiced really hard at doing that. And then finally, in my mid-20s, that sort of started to come more naturally. So I'm more of an extrovert, but I had to work on, like, talking to random people.

[B]

And that's kind of what maybe your perspective towards dating sounds like. What I'm getting is you kind of have to be chill. You also have to be brave, because I agree. I think it's a skill. I don't think people are just born. Well, I guess some people are born being brave, but a lot of us have to work at those things or lord, being chill. Some of us have to work towards that. So with your clients, how do you help them develop those skills?

[A]

It's definitely try to be chill. But, like, the best way to be chill, I don't want people to be like, I'm going to be chill, which means I have no needs, or I'm not going to speak up if something's bothering me. That's not chill. That's just like, bad communication or that's like abandoning yourself or something. Right. That's like you not letting somebody in so that they can know or figure out who you are. I think it's more about, like, nervous system regulation. So being chill is trying to, like, not feel anxious and feel like you're overstimulated, you know, or not feel like you're about to have an anxiety attack. There was a time where I used to get lots of anxiety attacks and where it was a really difficult problem for me to, like, manage my nervous system. Like, all of the fears, the overstimulation, Would like, really hijack me. So also, in my early 20s, I had to really deliberately work on trying to feel grounded in my body. And so a lot of times on first dates back then, I knew that if I went on a first date, I would start to feel really nervous. And the first thing that would happen when I start to feel nervous is that my body would heat up. I'd get a little overheated. So I was like, okay, every time I go on a first date, I'm gonna get a drink with a bunch of ice in it and I'm gonna like, hold it close into my palm, which will then, like, cool my body down. Or I'm gonna allow myself to, like, excus and go to the bathroom and just, like, rinse my hands under cold water in order to cool myself down. Or if I was like, really nervous and I liked the person that was in front of me, I would tell them, like, oh, I'm anxious. You make me a little nervous or something. Like, if I can just like express a little bit of my anxiety or nervousness, then they would probably be like, oh, oh, don't worry. Or they'd say something calming, or they'd laugh and we'd be silly about it or something. Or they would admit that they're feeling nervous as well. So if I go into the dates with a grounded nervous system and feel like I'm in my body, that it also helps me sort of determine how much do I like this person instead of, am I likable? Because I think a lot of the time I would go into those dates early on and be like, oh, I hope they like me. Am I being funny? Am I being sweet? Am I being cute? And then I would leave the date and I had to be like, who was that? That person that I was with? I don't even know if I like them.

[B]

You know, who was I?

[C]

She's 100%. I'm so glad that you brought that up, Jeff, because that's actually some dating advice that I got. Or just like, interacting with other humans advice that I got, like, probably over a decade ago from a friend who, who told me exactly that, like, when you are talking with other people, don't worry about whether or not they like you. Be focused on whether or not you like them. Which is really great because then you're out of your head and actually focused on the other person instead of being super self conscious the entire time. And that advice has been worth its weight in gold. It's been so helpful.

[A]

Exactly. If you're trying to be, like, the best date ever, then you're probably not being very authentic. And there's a lot of performance anxiety that's running through your body. For me, personally, something that helps is that I've, like, decided already, even before the first date, that I'm gonna go on a second date with them. I'm gonna, like, go on the first date. It could be weird, it could be awkward. It could be fun. It could be silly. I'm just. As long as there's not any, like, flaming red flags, then I'll do a second date with them. Cause the second date is when things feel a little bit more calm, a little bit more regulated. You start to really kind of understand who that person is. And so there's. There's kind of, like, this pressure that I'm taking off of myself, being like, oh, should I see them again? Or not? Like, I'm gonna see them again, is what I've decided. That's not always the case. I don't always have a second date every single time. But if I'm not putting so much pressure on the first date, then things seem to flow a little bit better.

[B]

Like a dress rehearsal.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's like, we can just give it a go.

[A]

Oh, every year or so, there's, like, this, like, little trendy debate. And I think it just happened maybe a few months ago online. This is kind of gendered, but is it okay for a man to ask a woman to go on a first date? That's a coffee date. And would you ever be okay going on a coffee date? Have you heard about this debate?

[C]

I didn't know this was, like, not okay.

[A]

Oh, it's a thing.

[C]

Yeah, it's a thing.

[B]

It's a big thing for the eldest in the room. You are the most online, Jeff.

[C]

I will say, seriously, there's nothing I

[A]

can do about it. Yeah, I mean, there is something I can do about it, but I will not do anything about it.

[C]

Wait, can I guess first before you tell us?

[A]

Go for it.

[C]

Okay, so my guess is that ladies are like, if he's not going to take you out on a Friday night to get, like, dinner, that's disrespectful. He's already not invested. Just, like, move on. Like, that's my guess.

[A]

Okay, that is the correct guess. It's, like, too low stakes. Like, there's nothing. And there's nothing romantic about it. And they're just buying you.

[C]

I love coffee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're just buying you, like, sponsor us, please.

[B]

Please, fellow, Please sponsor us.

[A]

They're buying you a $6 coffee. They're not investing enough. And it's such a short date. And there's so like, you deserve more women, you know, like women you should be asking for more sort of thing. But I like a coffee date. I like a walking through the park date. I like how. I like making it really low stakes. Because if you're spending a lot of money on it, now all of a sudden there's like, maybe weird expectations or there's like a power imbalance. I have no idea. There's like stuff going on in like a big date. So I like to have a very chill first date. And then we can have like a nicer second date if we want.

[B]

That's way easier to leave. Like, get that coffee in a to go mode.

[A]

Yeah. And coffee in 25 minutes.

[B]

Yeah. Be like, oh, my God, I lost track of the time. I don't know. But yeah, you can just dip instead of being like, we're only three appetizers. Right.

[C]

Or if you're having a great time, then potentially there's time for the date to continue. I remember going on a date with somebody that like, maybe started out as a coffee date, and we ended up spending like the entire day together. And at the end of that, we were like, oh, my gosh, we really like each other. We should keep on hanging out. And it was actually super fun.

[A]

Yeah. So if you can go on those dates and just like, be the version of you that you can actually sustain if there was a long term relationship so that you're not just like trying to be somebody else, then you're probably good to go. And also keeping in mind that, like, the other person that's on a date with you, they're just as nervous and anxious as you. You're in this together.

[C]

I find that hard to believe. But I'll take your word for it

[A]

that they're just as nervous and anxious as you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I doubt it.

[B]

But you're very brut brave, Felicia.

[C]

I'm very brave. I'm a very brave, nervous person.

[B]

It's exhausting.

[C]

I'm so tired.

[A]

Okay, maybe you specifically are the most nervous person on the date. So everybody else can take that advice except for Felicia. Yeah.

[B]

Well, it sounds like you're just very open to the experience. You're open to just meeting lots of different people. But are there any red flags that you notice or maybe your clients mention those alarm bells are going off for you and you just are like, this is not a second date scenario.

[A]

Yeah, I think that for me and for a lot of people, I think like, if I go on the date and there's something that makes me feel unsafe, I mean, I'm not, I'm probably not feeling like physically unsafe, but if you're a woman, you might be feeling physically unsafe with another man. But if I feel like emotionally unsafe, if I feel like incredibly invalidated, if I'm not feeling seen or understood at all, like that's not easing up throughout the whole date, then that's a pretty big turn off for me. If there's some sort of love bombing sort of thing going on where they're doing lots of future casting or something. There's like this funny. When I've dated as a content creator, like as Therapy Jeff, during. I mean, I don't date as therapy, I date as Jeff.

[C]

That would be really interesting.

[A]

Not as Therapy Jeff.

[C]

I'm not saying Hunter, I am Therapy Jeff. What's your handle?

[A]

Dating while Therapy Jeff? There's like these funny things that happen where they're. They already maybe have a parasocial relationship with me. I have not gone on a second date before where I was just like, you're dating this character, this Therapy Jeff character, and I'm trying to get you to like connect with who I really am. And it's not happening. It doesn't feel like it's happening. And what's going to most likely happen, which I've experienced, is that like you think I am this perfect date and then I'm going to be like a perfect little partner for you. I'm going to fucking disappoint you so much. There's also like the classic one which I really enjoy, which is watching your date interact with like the server or somebody they think is like beneath them. Like seeing how they treat the staff or whatever at the restaurant or at the barista or something like that, that gives me a lot of clues. Then there's also kind of like, I'm not really into the trauma dumping of it all. I think that it's fun and interesting to get kind of vulnerable and honest, emotionally honest on a first date. But if you're gonna tell me all of the very difficult things that you've gone through in life, I wanna learn about that later on. I'm very interested in learning about that. But there's something for me personally that feels red flaggy about it. Cause I'm just like, oh, we haven't established a safe quite yet. And you're treating it like that. And it's not like Kind of going along the normal ebb and flow or, like, it's not unfolding in what feels like a natural way. It feels like you're forcing it. Those are a few red flags I have.

[C]

I agree with all of those. The future thing especially gets my hackles up because this is something that I feel like happened to me a lot when I was dating. And actually, the partner I have right now did not do that at all. I just don't think that's his style. Like, and for someone who, like that, like, ended up being really painful. And as somebody who really does like, to be able to predict behavior and predict the future, what would happen when people would say all these really wonderful sounding things, but then it wouldn't materialize? That would be really, really hard for me. And I'm, like, trying to figure it out. I'm like, wait, are they lying to me? It was, like, super confusing, and I would get my hopes up about different. So anyway, like, I think one of the reasons why, like, we're together, you know, six years in, is because, like, there's a certain level of honesty and a trust that he knows himself. Like, he's. He's not just talking to tell me things I want to hear. He knows himself well enough to be honest about what he's available for. And rather than thinking and projecting into the future about all the amazing things we will or won't do, it's. It's about connecting right now and creating the relationship we want right now. And ultimately, to me, I want that. I want the relationship that's good right now, not the shitty relationship right now with the possibility of an amazing relationship later.

[A]

Yeah. And it's easy to fall for the potential of somebody.

[C]

Don't date someone's potential. Don't do it.

[A]

Don't do it. But I love doing that personally.

[B]

Same. Don't do it. But give it a go.

[A]

But if you're just sort of like a dumpster fire, but you tell me that you're not gonna be. I'm in love with you. Like, I want to go on that journey with you.

[B]

I'm gonna fix you. Jeff's toxic type.

[C]

Maybe you'll change for me.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Because we like each other so much.

[B]

Did you see those memes when the first Joker came out with Joaquin Phoenix that all these girls online were like,

[C]

I can fix him. Yeah, Yeah, I get that.

[B]

It.

[A]

I get that.

[B]

Okay. I really want to get into some of this dating advice on Reddit. Okay. They give. This was fun. Okay. This was really fun to. To Find this stuff. Okay.

[C]

Great first date. We're having a wonderful time.

[B]

Yes. Great first date.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is in the subreddit advice. Embarrassed myself drunk in front of guy I was dating this weekend. I embarrassed myself and I'm feeling it all basically. I've been dating a guy for about a month now and he invited me to drinks with his friends last minute. I wanted to stay in, but I thought, whatever, just go. But I was anxious. This was only our fourth time seeing each other. I'd taken my anxiety medicine kind of late in the day for some extra context. Anyways, I ended up getting way too drunk and all the resentment I had towards this man came out in front of him and his friends. I talked about how men don't plan dates anymore and how men need to be trained by their exes. And I don't know why I said that, but I feel horrible and embarrassed about it. I think I was trying to say that hookup culture was ruining dating. I'm not sure. I basically went on a rant about how much men suck and a lot I'm having trouble remembering. I remember his friends saying, we like you and we want to see you again, but that's something you say to your girls. Brunch. And the vibe got weird. That being said, he was angry and embarrassed, especially because I told his friends he tried to get me to go over after the first time we met. Anyways, we argued in his car and he kicked me out of his car and drove off and I was wasted. So thank God I got home safe. I remember him saying he was turned off and didn't want to drive me home. Apparently I called my friend and she stayed on the phone with me until I got into my apartment, which I have no recollection of. I've been crying all weekend because of how ashamed I am and I didn't mean for it to end this way. A part of me feels like I self sabotage instead of communicating clearly how I felt. I hope I never see these people again. I just feel so sad because I really started to like this guy and let my guard down. I just need to vent and get some feedback. Thanks in advance.

[A]

Oh, poor baby.

[C]

Yeah, that is super rough. Also freaking scary. Yeah, at first when she said like, he kicked me out of his car, I was like, I was thinking of course at her home. But no, it was like some random place and she was blacked out like, we're happy she's safe. Yeah, really glad you made it home.

[A]

That was my first thought too. Is that. Wait, so He's. So she got really drunk. He wouldn't drive her home, and then she drove home, and thank God she got there safe. But, like, why. Why is he putting her in danger? Why is he just, like, letting her out on the street like that, drunk and seemingly maybe okay with her driving back home?

[C]

Right. What she said was, he said he was turned off, so he didn't wanna drive me home. It's like, okay, wait, hold on. So he's not driving you home not because he's upset with you, but because he doesn't plan to have sex with you once you arrive. So he's dropping you off in the middle of wherever the fuck. Like, not cool. Obviously. Walk away like you don't need to continue. But, like, I don't know, Jeff, what do you have to say about how she was behaving at this gathering?

[A]

Yeah, so, I mean, sometimes that happens where you, like, have a little too much to drink and you start saying shit that you start, like, ranting about men these days.

[B]

I've definitely done that. That, to be clear, I'm not gonna come out and say it. I've definitely gone on a drunk rant where I'm like, you just fucking want it all. Yeah, it's.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know exactly what she said, but I. I would imagine that whatever she said is probably accurate, like, an accurate representation of, like, how shitty men are these days. So she gets a little drunk and is honest about how disappointed she is in men. That's kind of, like a good test for the group to see how they're going to react. Are they going to be defensive? Are they going to. Are they manosphere boys? Is something problematic? Is that. Can they understand and be compassionate? Are they more progressive in their thoughts? Can they take accountability for, like, things that they've done? So, yeah, maybe not, like, the best presentation, but understandable that she's really upset and that she and the rest of women have to, like, deal with these shitty men who just aren't growing up. Right. If I go out on a date, on a fourth date with somebody and they get, like, really sloppy drunk, look, I'm incredibly turned off. We're probably not gonna go on a fifth date. Like, I'm. I have some family trauma around addicts and alcoholics, where, like, there are addicts and alcoholics in my family. So, like, I just have very little to be clear. Yeah, just be clear. So I'm not gonna be very forgiving when it comes to, like, oh, this feels like a boundary was crossed. I want you to be able to, like, know how to handle your alcohol. Although. So I get it. Like, she's nervous. She took her anxiety meds later in the day. She wasn't planning on doing this. And then she did. She drank too much. So, you know, maybe, I don't know. How do you all feel? Is that like an automatic turn off for you, or are you gonna give him another. Give her another chance?

[C]

I, like, you have some people who struggle with substances in my family, so that would also be probably a hard pass for me. I'd probably feel like I notice when people are drinking a lot to the point where they get pretty out of control, I start to feel scared. Like, even if they're not being violent, it really makes I get afraid. And so for me, that would definitely be like a. Okay, we're done here. Even if what the person was saying was like, actually super valid, it just wouldn't work for me to move forward. It sounds like this probably isn't a

[B]

pattern for this person.

[C]

It sounds like it was kind of like the perfect storm of being really excited about this person, but also being kind of disappointed. Disappointed. You took your medication late. You were maybe a little nervous, you know, just kind of decided to go when you weren't planning on it. So, I mean, if any one of those factors had been a little different, like, this person might not have gotten really drunk. Right. But given that those things happened, yeah, I. I wouldn't be moving forward.

[A]

Yeah, I think a lot of valuable information was collected by everybody.

[B]

That's such a nice therapist thing to say something about it.

[A]

Yeah, you learned a lesson. You learned about yourself as well. And you can, you know, use this information to grow. But I get the tendency of wanting to blame yourself. It's all my fault that this all got fucked up. And like, we're sort of saying, like, you're not considering how he was reacting and the red flags in that guy as well. I've had a handful of dates where I was just like, ah, if I just wouldn't have said that thing, or if I wouldn't have been overconfident or overzealous, or if I would have, like, I don't know, gone left instead of right, then this would have all worked out. And sometimes I'm left with the, like, yeah, maybe it really was my fault and I just have to sit with that. I don't get to have a duty. I'm just gonna use this to be better in my next. In the next situation. You know what I mean?

[C]

Another bit of advice That I got that feels relevant here is if it's for you, you can't fuck it up.

[A]

Yeah, it goes. It's sort of like the, you can't say the wrong thing to the right person thing.

[C]

Exactly. Like, yeah, it's not like either person in this scenario seems like they were behaving really well. There were like not good things on both sides. But it's like if this was your guy, if this was the person you were going to make it happen with, like, there would have been a way to like overcome this. You would have had bigger challenges, certainly different ones, but you would have had bigger ones. And so if you can't make it through this, you're not going to make it. I feel like sometimes that has been super reassuring to me.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Because it's like, okay, if I'm over here thinking, oh my God, I really this up, I really lost out on this person. But then, okay, if this really was the person for me, I wouldn't have been able to fuck it up or they would have shown up differently. And yeah, so actually I do think it's pretty reassuring.

[A]

I do too.

[B]

Yeah, I hope self compassion for this person. I just, I hear a lot of shame and the anxiety. Oh, it just sucks. And yeah, I just hope that she's feeling better. And it sounds to me maybe she actually had some internal kind of red flags going off. Like maybe deep down she didn't feel safe with this person, but in her mind, maybe because it was exciting, maybe she's really attracted to him, she feels like there's all this chemistry, but maybe in the back of her mind, kind of deep down it's like, this isn't a safe person for me. And then combine alcohol and a mismatched, you know, medication schedule and I'll just kind of unravel it that way.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good point.

[B]

Oh my gosh. This is a really good one. Okay. I don't even need to read this whole thing. It's really just the title. This was only posted 13 days ago. Okay. Also in the subreddit advice, just realized my boyfriend I've been dating for two years might be a flat earther. I'm pretty shocked. The conversation I just had. My boyfriend has been sending me reels showing if. Sorry, I can't get through this.

[C]

Two years.

[B]

Two years.

[C]

Two years.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

I'm gonna finish this. I'm sorry. My boyfriend has been sending me reels showing a theory where the earth is encapsulated in an ice wall and is a tiny Part of a greater Earth and land we don't have access to. He also informed me that the Earth does not rotate and the sun is actually revolving around us. I've known him for two years, and he sometimes has brought up conspiracies, but not anything like this. I have a science degree and try to explain to him gravitational pull, but he said that's what they want us to believe. I feel like I'm being punked. How have I gone this long without ever knowing this crazy belief he has? This has to be a deal breaker, right?

[C]

Holy shit.

[A]

I love it. I love a good conspiracy theory. I wish I believed in that. There's, like, something so fun about thinking that it's all a lie. And it's also like, I feel like that that specific conspiracy theory of, like, the. The Earth is flat, if you go to the ocean, you look out, it seems that way.

[B]

Seems pretty fucking flat.

[A]

Yeah, that's what my eyes are telling me. I totally get why that would make sense. And then if you just sort of group it with, like, oh, I really don't believe in science, then voila, you. And also, like, was the moon landing really a thing? I could go on and on.

[B]

So not a deal breaker for Jeff is what I'm hearing.

[C]

Jeff is just like, ooh, you're fun.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is I believe that the world. That the world is round, that the Earth is round, and that we landed on the moon and all. Like, I don't actually believe in those conspiracy theories, but I do think it's endearing. The problem is that when you're like, your core belief systems and what you think of the world is shaped by them, like, if this is just like, a funny, little silly, like, you know what? I bet the earth is flat. I'd be like, that's so sweet. Tell me more. But then if it seems like it's opening a door to who this person really is, and that's when it gets really concerning. And so is it a deal breaker? I would imagine so. Because there's so much more behind that door. It sounds like, yeah, it's like the

[B]

fringe beliefs, like, this is kind of like a little inlet and then what else you got back there? Kind of thing.

[A]

What's the most believable conspiracy theory for you too? Cause for me, mine used to be maybe still could be the moon landing was faked. That's such a playful one that's not really harming anybody, whether it was real or not. And I get that it was a Space race and Hollywood maybe could have faked it. Sure.

[C]

They made a whole movie about it.

[A]

Yeah, that's a fun one to get behind. Cause there's sort of no stakes there. But sorry, the question that this person.

[B]

Is it a deal breaker?

[A]

Is it a deal breaker? I mean, that's not for us to decide, I guess. But personally, I don't want to be in a committed relationship with you long term, but I'd love to continue having sex with you. That's. That's what I would do.

[C]

I would agree with that. Yeah. I think. I think because this person has a science background, like, that is probably different than this Flat Earther dating somebody who doesn't have that background. But clearly the value system and the way they understand the nature of reality and arriving at what's true or not is probably pretty different. So that seems like it's going to become an issue, if I had to guess.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, we all live in a simulation. I think that's the one I believe right now, if I'm gonna believe any. It's the we all live in a simulation, like 100%.

[C]

That is what I believe. It's like the separation between individuals is basically just a matter of perspective and we're having a sort of shared hallucination that has some basis in reality, but maybe not completely. So anyway, not weird at all. No. Super, super chill and cool over here.

[A]

Here's the thing, though. It's fun to have a conversation like this on a date or with your partner or something, but.

[C]

Or on a podcast that like hundreds of thousands of people are going to listen to.

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[C]

Just super intimate.

[A]

Yeah, no worries. But there comes a point where, where even you could just go too far and be like, I don't want to do this anymore. This is fucking weird. And like, like, this is like such an interesting, like, fascinating conversation. But if you're so hijacked by it, or if it, like, leads to all the other conspiracy theories, or if, like, it makes it so that you can't trust reality and you're acting, like, kind of funny because of it or something, you can take all these conspiracy theories too far. And I think, like, the Flat Earthers already start out way too far. I don't know, like, how you could, like, playfully believe in that.

[B]

Okay, last one. This one is a bit more serious, but I think, think it's important to talk about and I'm very, very curious about both of your clinical experience in particular with this and how you would

[C]

work with this person.

[B]

This is in the subreddit advice as well. And this was only posted two days ago and it has 700 upvotes. 831 comments. So it's definitely gotten some attention dealing with being an ugly woman. Hello, hello, 24 year old woman here. And I feel like I've missed out many opportunities because of my looks. For my whole life, whenever I saw a cute guy I wanted to approach. I didn't because I knew I would be rejected. From the beginning. Whenever I was talking to a male friend, I never had high hopes. Sometimes I feel like I'm too scared to do anything because how can I act like a proper person when I'm below average looking? Why would anyone listen to me? Why would anyone ever see me? Why would I even try if I have no hopes of getting married and having a family of my own one day? Day? My parents love me, sure, but their love is instinctual. They wouldn't if they were strangers. And maybe deep down they despise me because of my looks. I wasn't always like that. Maybe. But as years passed, my hope just went down and down. I mean, 24 years old and never been in a relationship, never had the chance to feel loved. Being too afraid to love, knowing it will be platonic or end in heartbreak. I don't want to say appearance is everything, but life is 80% about the way we look. Pretty privilege is damn real. And if you are under average, sometimes people may not see you as human at all. You're just an obstacle, something unimportant. I felt that feeling for my whole life. Even when I was a little kid. People cared more for cute kids, not ones like me. There's no way to avoid this reality. I just have to accept it and live my life accordingly and be grateful for what I have. But I don't know where or how to begin. Any perspective would really help.

[A]

Help? No, we just ruined the vibe and hope you're happy.

[B]

I really brought it down. We're having so much fun.

[C]

This could have been like in the middle.

[B]

Okay, this is still a mental health podcast. It's gonna get real.

[C]

No, it's fine. Yeah. Jeff, gonna let you take this one first.

[A]

Oh, thanks.

[C]

Yeah, you're welcome.

[A]

So while I was listening to you read that, that sounded kind of heartbreaking and really sad. And the fir. My first instinct, which I'm sure doesn't work. And this isn't even like me being a therapist. It's just like me being a human. I like want to be like, no, you're being way too hard on yourself. Which Might be true. She could be, like, being way too critical and judging herself way too hard. But I don't know what she looks like. On my podcast, I, like, answer relationship questions, and sometimes I want to just sort of, like, disagree with their premise. I'm like, oh, you're telling this wrong, or you're being too hard on yourself or whatever it is. But you kind of have to, like, in order to answer the question, sometimes you just have to believe them 100%. So just be like, well, I guess so. Maybe it is true that she's not just being incredibly critical, although I think she probably is. But whatever. What if it's true that she's, like, feeling or she is really unattractive and she's viewed accordingly? Probably, yeah. Especially women, right? They're like, like, your value a lot of times is, is, or most of the time is based on your looks. So what she's experiencing is probably very real. If she was a client of mine, I'd probably spend a lot of time just, like, understanding, empathizing, trying to, like, get what her reality feels like and what her emotional experience is. So I want to be like, well, looks aren't everything. But she did. She sort of addressed that already with, like, her little comeback being like, yeah, looks are actually 80% of the package. I don't know.

[B]

80%. I don't want to say appearance is everything, but life is 80% about the way we look.

[A]

Yeah. But it is true that appearance isn't actually everything. I'm sure there's, like, dozens and dozens of other things that are very likable, charming, attractive, sweet. If you don't think that you're, like, super attractive, it doesn't mean that everybody else is going to think that way as well. That's just sort of of what's coming off the top of my head at first. What do you think?

[C]

Yeah, I feel really similarly. I had the exact same impulse that you had initially to be like, oh, no, of course not. But again, taking her at her word, if she really is as unattractive as she says she is, then, yeah, I think if I were her therapist, I would really try to just be in the pain of that. Right. Like, really acknowledge that without moving on too quickly. Because I definitely feel like. Like, when we sometimes have the impulse to, like, move past that and just reassure, like, people really don't feel seen. They really don't feel like you get it, you know? So I think as a therapist, like, first things first would just be to make sure that she's getting the sense that I really, really get what she's saying, that I, that I do believe her. Right. And so that really depends on like the clinical relationship, you know, how well you knew this person. Yeah. It sounds like she has friends and there are people in her life who enjoy her. So she clearly has qual beyond her appearance that people are drawn to. That's really important here. I think there are plenty of people in the world who are not stereotypically attractive, but like do have strong relationships. I mean there are famous people who are not stereotypically attractive. So there are a lot of things.

[B]

She should become famous, then everyone will love you.

[A]

Have you ever thought of that?

[C]

I don't think that's. That would be worst takeaway ever. Me client. Would you consider just speaking of being famous? Because then it really wouldn't matter. God no.

[A]

But I get the point that you're making though. You're right. You're right.

[C]

So I think like attractiveness is, is really not, it's not just like how you look. There are plenty of people who are not conventionally attractive, but they've got something.

[A]

It's the way they carry themselves.

[B]

It's the way they carry themselves. Dating energy, if you will.

[A]

Big wow.

[C]

Seem was. And obviously that's hard to cultivate when you are feeling insecure. Right. But you know, again with, with lots of consideration here, I would probably be wanting to help her connect to the aspects of her identity, her personality, herself that she does feel really good about and really begin to leverage that. And my sense is as time went on, she would start to feel differently about herself, maybe even start to feel differently about the way she looks. You know, I've definitely seen some videos of like people walking in a certain way where they're sort of embodying the sense of like embarrassment, insecurity, they're kind of like covered and then that same person walking confidently and it's like their whole image changes. And so there is probably some wiggle room with how you carry yourself that will make you appear to other people more attractive and feel more attractive in yourself.

[A]

And one of the saddest parts of that question was something about like my parents wouldn't even love me or like me if they weren't my parents. Like oh no, there's some, there's some like real whatever self hatred or something that comes from somewhere that is just incredibly sad. Her self esteem and confidence and worth is just totally on the floor. So I want to explore that. But if you're convinced that like for whatever reason you're not attractive enough or you're not something enough to be in relationship. I guess you can decenter relationships. You know, you value it now, but maybe you, like, move it down on the, like, list of values, and you focus on your friendships, your creativity, your work, your family, traveling, getting, like, interesting, unique experiences. Like, you know, there's, like, other things, things in the world that you can experience outside of a relationship. And relationships don't have to be the whole thing. So there is, like, maybe an avenue of. Okay, fine. If I'm gonna, like, believe that you'll never get into a relationship because of how you look, then we're gonna actually have to grieve it. We're gonna have to grieve the fact that you're never gonna be in a relationship. And that's incredibly hard, and it's really difficult. There'll be, like, a certain level of grief for the rest of your life. Life, likely. But that doesn't mean you can't have, like, a very full life and be really happy and inspired and joyous a lot of the time. You know what I mean?

[C]

I think that's really great advice. And she said she's 24. There's so much pressure on people to be coupled to be in relationships. Like, I remember feeling that way when I was dating. Like, I felt bad about myself when I was single because there was so much societal pressure to. To be in a relationship. And, like, no one even really has to tell you that. You're just, like. You think of yourself as being, like, less than if you don't have a person who's, like, committed to you. And so I had to do a lot of work around that and be like, no, I still get to have a good life even if I'm single. It's not like, yeah, because I had this sense of being single. And, like, I was waiting for my life to start. You know, it's like, once I meet my person, then my life begins. And at a certain point, I was like, this is dumb. My life is happening right now, and I can enjoy it right now. And again, again, I think it is beginning to enjoy your life, beginning to love yourself in these different ways and not wait for a relationship to mean you get to start. That is what's going to help you feel more confident and ultimately become more attractive. And you, like you said, Jeff, like, still get to grieve the fact that right now this seems as if it's out of reach for you and that pain is real, but you still get to live your life. I'm really curious how people commented on this post. I'm thinking. I'm hoping people were very kind.

[B]

So, top comment. You're probably not as ugly as you think, but it doesn't really matter. Plenty of ugly women are happily married. Yeah. It is easier to be pretty. To a point though, from what I've seen, super hot women have a difficult time of it. It's easiest to be cute or somewhat, but not amazingly hot. But what you lack in looks, you can make up for in charm and style. Wild. I'm ugly, but have never had a problem attracting male attention. I'm like a pug. Hideous and gross, but the people who are into me are really into me.

[C]

Okay. I'm really glad this person said that because I was thinking that I was like, we love ugly dogs.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you can't tell me there's not such a thing as cute ugly.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not for all tastes for the niche market, you are as well. Find your niche market.

[A]

Oh, I like that. That's really cute.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

It.

[C]

Yeah. I can think of people I've dated who are not conventionally attractive. But the weird thing is that, like, I actually did become physically attracted to them.

[A]

Does that happen to you? You have like this sort of slow burn effect of, like, find yourself more attracted to somebody as you get to know them.

[C]

Yeah. It's like, I think all of my friends are really hot. And I think it's because I know them and love them. And then I think, like, other. I think, like, the general population is not as attractive as my friends.

[B]

Friends.

[C]

And then like, I was reflecting on that, I think maybe Jordy called me out on it and he was like, no, I think it's just because you know them and you care about them. And I was like, oh, shit.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Statistically, that doesn't make sense. That, like, all my friends are just, like, hotter than everyone else. I think I just like these people.

[B]

That's so cute.

[A]

I. I asked, like, a little question on my threads just this morning, and I said, on a scale of 1 to 10, if 10 is like, incredibly hot and 1 is not hot at all, what's the minimum amount of number that you would, like, go on a first date with somebody? And most of the people that answered were like, they have to be at least a 5, which was a little lower than I thought people were gonna say. And I also think that, like, most of the commenters that said five were women.

[B]

I didn't wanna generalize, but I was

[C]

kinda like, you can generalize your audience.

[B]

That's what happened.

[A]

Yeah, it's 92% women. Them.

[C]

So, okay. It skews millions of women. Agree. So, Jeff, have you ever been in a session with a client who's struggling with dating, and, like, maybe there's something you're thinking of that you wouldn't say because you're in your role as this person's therap therapist, but what are you really thinking? Like, if somebody's struggling with dating, what's the thing you've been thinking that you maybe wish if they were your friend, you would have said, but you're not going to say it because you're a therapist.

[A]

I actually have said that this maybe a few times as the therapist, and I've always gotten really bad feedback and I've stopped saying it, but it's still something I secretly think we want to know. I guess it's. It's not even that controversial. I mean, you can decide if you think it's controversial.

[B]

I'm offended.

[A]

No, it's. I think it comes off as invalidating. So if somebody's talking to me about their dating issues and it's just not fucking working out and what the hell is going on, and they're getting really burnt out and yada yada. A lot of times those folks are just sort of like. Like, because of their energy level, they're going on less and less dates. And I want to be like, it's a fucking numbers game, babe. Go on as many dates as you can. I mean, don't, like, go crazy here and get, like, too overwhelmed. But if you're just going on one date every three weeks or every month, that is not enough. Like, go on two or three dates a week if you can, like, mentally, energetically handle it. But whenever I've said that, there's like, ugh, like, that's. I don't. Like, that's. That's not helping me feel better about dating or whatever. I'm also thinking that because for me, that works. Like, I'm just gonna go on as many dates as I possibly can so I can get a good idea of, like, what I'm attracted to, who I'm vibing with. Like, I'm. It works well for me to be like, oh, I felt this way on that date and then another way on a different date. And I'm actually finding myself magnetized to this over here. Like, I want all the information and the data I can get so I can make a decision. But I have not said that in many years now of, like, Babe, it's a fucking numbers game. Go for it. Like, I don't know. Do you? How do you feel about that?

[C]

Once again, this is advice that I have gotten not from a therapist, but from a friend. And like, I am so that person who would be like, so exhausted from one date because as we've discussed, very, very uncomfortable and nervous. Right? So I'm so tired after that date. And so, yeah, if you're like, go on five more, I'm gonna be like you. So. Absolutely. I think that's fantastic advice. And like, I'm glad, since you're not saying that in session anymore, that you can stay here, say here on what your therapist thinks it's the perfect place to. To reveal.

[B]

So now I would have loved to get that advice because it takes away. I think the whole thing is just. And this has been just in my own therapy journey as well. So few things in life are personal, you know, and if we think about dating as just a numbers game, and it's not like, okay, my one date a month, it didn't work out, and it's because I'm clingy or I'm terrible or whatever, but it's just, hey, that was one of God knows how many dates you're gonna be on in your life. It just kind of depersonalizes it. And I think then your self esteem gets less wrapped up in an hour with another person, a stranger, you know,

[A]

so, yeah, and also thinking like, why don't you just cheer the up, calm

[C]

down, cheer up, you're fine. That's secretly what all therapists are thinking, right? At certain point. If you've ever been in therapy, at some point your therapist thought, come on, like, with love. Yes, with love.

[B]

With love.

[A]

Come on. Yeah.

[B]

Thank you so much for being here, Jeff. This was such a super fun conversation and I just love the lightheartedness you bring to all of this and just mental health in general, but I especially think dating. So great to hear about your experience. And please follow Therapy Jeff on whatever platform you like to consume content. Get his book Big Dating Energy, which we'll link to in the podcast.

[A]

Thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun.

[C]

Yeah, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

[B]

We're so glad you're here and we hope you got a lot out of it.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

What yout Therapist Thinks is hosted by me, Felicia Keller Boyle and me, Christy Plantinga. What yout Therapist Thinks is produced by Pod Fishing.

[B]

See you next time.