← What Your Therapist Thinks
What Your Therapist Thinks
How Can We Get The Spark Back? Strategies for Long-Term Relationship Intimacy
00:57:23
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Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans.
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I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.
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We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.
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You can have opinions, you can have
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like a strong statement dance.
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And then there's your body having its own program.
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Listen to A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts. A really good working relationship that has spark gets boring, but this is actually what you want.
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Nurturing a spark, I think, requires a willingness to experiment and to try different things out.
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A
You have to have that underlying safety to then be able to explore. Explore the sexy.
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I think with the spark thing, the deepest fear is they are not attracted to me anymore or I'm not attracted to them anymore.
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The only thing that you need to have is a desire to change it. So I would say the thing that I usually am not saying at the beginning is
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if you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, a licensed somatic therapist and clinical advisor at Best Therapists.
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And I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapist and Therapy Connoisseur.
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This is what your therapist thinks. A mental health show where actual therapists open up about real world stories and the questions people wish they could ask them.
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And by real world, we mean Reddit posts, incognito, Google searches, and the things you want to bring up in therapy, but maybe you don't.
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You'll hear conversations on everything from the best dating advice to adhd, even EMDR
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therapy, body dysmorphia, and more. Sometimes it will make you feel seen
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and sometimes it'll make you laugh out loud.
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We're so glad you're here.
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Now let's get into the episode.
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Welcome back to what yout Therapist Thinks. I'm your host, Christy Plantinga, and I've been in a lot of therapy.
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And I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, licensed somatic therapist in California.
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Today we are joined by Dr. Lindsay Cavanaugh. Dr. Lindsay Kavanaugh is a psychologist and marriage expert who helps parents have the strongest marriage possible after having kids. This includes navigating the mental load, connecting in simple yet effective ways, and communicating effectively to be able to talk about any problem that gets in the way of feeling good together. We are talking about getting the spark back in your relationship. This is obviously very common after a couple has kids. It is such a big life disruptor, but this can happen really, at any point in a long term relationship. So to kick us off, I want to ask, can you save a relationship if the spark is gone?
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A
I always say that, yes, absolutely, yes. The long answer is, I feel like the only thing that you need to have is a desire to change it. That's it. I can teach you everything else. I can teach you all the skills you need to know. The one thing that I cannot do is make you want to do it. So if people are coming to me and they're saying, like, well, I'm here because we're going to get divorced, but I don't really want to, then, no, it probably won't change. But if you have even the littlest desire to want to make it work and to put that effort in, absolutely.
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C
And we talked about this in another episode with Kenny Levine on Contempt in relationships, where it feels like if something is present in a relationship, it's just kind of doomed. And I think a lot of people think that if that spark is gone, this is a sign that this relationship has kind of run its course. I think that's a very common way to think about the spark. So why is that not the case then?
- [03:57]
A
I like to think of the spark as something that is completely within your control. And I think that most of the time, people think about it as something that's outside of your control. It's just the air. We just have have it. And in early relationships, when we have all of that new relationship energy hormones going on in our brain, the spark just exists. It does feel like it's outside of us. We don't have to work to have it. We don't have to put any effort in. But throughout the course of a relationship, and this is any relationship, whether you have kids or not, once, you know, between six months and two years, when all those lovely hormones die down, to keep that spark alive, it has to be something that's intentional. It has to be something that you put effort towards. And there are certain things that you have to do in order to keep that going. So I think the reason that people think it's doomed is because there is this perception that it's outside of me. And so if it's not there, if I don't feel it, I can't do anything about it. And so then the relationship must be over versus, oh, this is something that I need to do. If I start to feel like the spark is going down in my marriage, like I literally have these, okay, are we connecting every single day? Are we creating this culture of appreciation that we know, right? Like, I am literally going through my Rolodex of are these things working? And if they're not, like, that's exactly where I start.
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B
It makes me think just how relationships are presented in media, movies, television, where most rom coms end when they, like, finally get together. So we never get to see the parts of the relationship where they're just used to each other. And I think you put it so perfectly, Lindsay. Like, yeah, at first when you're in a relationship, the spark is just there and you don't really have to work for it. It feels so natural. And I think we often interpret that as like, oh, this means this is the right person for me. Because it feels like this. And so then if that changes, then I think it's really natural for people to go, oh, well, maybe this means this isn't the right person for me or this isn't the right relationship for me. But you're saying that that's not really true. It doesn't necessarily indicate that this isn't the right relationship for you. And now is the time to kind of roll up your sleeves and pull out your Rolodex and, like, do the part of the relationship that maybe feels a little bit more, I don't know, boring. Do you ever find that people kind of like, oh, I shouldn't have to do this.
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A
Yes, all the time, I shouldn't have to do this. That is a sentence I hear every single day. Because again, you're not seeing it anywhere. The reason that heated rivalry or any rom com does well is because you have that build up. Right? They really talk about that when it comes to desire and the buildup. And is this right? But I think that in reality, again, a really good working relationship that has, quote, unquote, spirit, spark, like, it's boring. It's really boring. No one wants to watch it. It's not going to make any reality TV show. But this is actually what you want. What we're all looking for in relationships is that safety. Is that stability? Am I cared for? Am I accepted? And so I think it is hard because we don't really have any models or pictures of what that actually looks like. And so because of that, we don't really know what the work is.
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B
So then how do we cultivate relationships that do have that safety? But there is also a spark.
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A
So when we look at safety, I really think about, like, emotional safety in this context of like, can I go to my partner and can I talk about anything, whether I'm mad at him Whether I'm hurt, nervous, scared, whatever it is, can I go to him and can that be received well? So. So we're not talking defensiveness. We're not talking thrown back at me or switched around or, you know, any of the things that normally happen. Can we have these conversations and do they lead somewhere? So if I am upset about something, is this something that we're talking about and then ultimately fixing? Right. Is it getting better? And so I always say, if you have this established in your relationship now, like, anything can come up. It doesn't matter what the topic is. It doesn't matter what the issue is. If that is established and you know how to do that. And this is different for every individual person. This is different for every single couple. But once you have that, everything gets easier, because now you have that base. I know this person cares about me. I know they're going to make me feel good. I know that they're going to accept me as I am. And so now when we're talking about spark, now it's all this extra stuff. What kinds of stuff make me feel really loved? Like, give me those little butterfly happy feelings in my tummy. What's the kind of thing that makes me excited to want to see you every day? Because if I can't talk to you about stuff, I don't want to do any of that other stuff either.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I'm hearing what you just shared, Lindsay, that it really requires each person knowing themselves again, going back to those early days of the relationship where it feels like it's just flowing, but then as those chemicals start to subside and are replaced by a different chemical cocktail in your body, you kind of have to do the homework of actually asking yourself, what do I like? What makes me tick? What lights me up? And then to be able to communicate that and ask for that with another person is like a whole additional skill set. Right?
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A
I mean, you nailed it. That's what it is. More often than not, I will ask a client that I'm working with, what is it that you need? And it's like crickets. They know the things that is making them unhappy. They know the things that they don't like. But really sitting down and being like, what do I want instead? Like, what would make me feel good here? What would make me feel safe? What would make me feel validated? What would make me feel like you were listening to me? We don't think about that enough. Number one, we don't even know that we need to. We don't get specific enough because People will say that I just need you to validate me. And my spouse thought that validating was like, I understand you, but right, like that was his version at one point of like validating it. I'm like, no, no, no, try again, buddy.
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B
Not quite.
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A
That's not it. And so being able though to know like, how do I like that? I think is such a big deal. And you're right that it's two separate skills scales. One, being able to think about it. And it's a completely different thing to communicate that, to find the words to say it to the point that the other person can hear. And they're a human being, right? They're a human being that has their own triggers, that has their own perspectives, that has their own everything. And even so, just because I say that doesn't mean that they're going to be able to do it right away. So we also have to figure out what barriers might be in the way there. So. So it makes sense why so many people struggle. It makes sense why, you know, again, the spark is such a thing that we struggle with because we're not taught how to do this. Like, no one literally teaches this.
- [10:58]
B
And then we get to be adults, potentially years into a relationship, and then we're like, okay, so now I have to like be able to understand and intuit and have the wisdom to know what I want and then also say that to another person. Navigate the fact that sometimes they have a reaction to that. That is not like, yay, let me do that for you.
- [11:17]
A
That's like high level stuff.
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B
So unfair. We should be teaching this to children early on.
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A
I say in kindergarten we need to start this just like you start learning numbers, we start learning basic relationship stuff and then all the way up to like again, high school level. We're really doing us all a disservice because research has come out, it's a decades long study that Harvard put out about what is the top predictor of health and happiness. And they looked at everything. They looked at genetic markers, they looked at your diet, your exercise. The number one thing is the quality of your relationship. And study after study has shown this. If anyone who would come to me, because I also just work as a traditional psychologist as well. We're always talking about relationships. Like they could come to me with depression, but we're talking about their relationships. They could come to me with anxiety. We're talking about relationships because even it's this that really makes or breaks like how we feel and we aren't taught it at all. No One knows we're all running blind.
- [12:23]
B
Yeah, it's like we're so specialized and heady, but we're also animals. And I think it's so easy to go through our days in our lives like forgetting that we are human animals in animal bodies. And one of the things that's true about our species is that we are inherently social. Of course there are some humans that like, that's not really as important to them, but most of us have that inheritance of being like deeply social beings that need those connections. And I think, like, we get lost in all of the things that we're doing all day and forget just how important and crucial that is for our well being. It makes sense that someone would come in talking about something like depression and anxiety, but that the ways that that would really impact their lives is in their relationships. And the ways that we would also begin to mitigate some of those symptoms and some of those challenges is also through relationships.
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A
Exactly.
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C
Yeah. So other than really knowing what we want, I guess an even better question is like, where do you even start? Because I think we all can identify where it's like, I want to be alone or I am feeling stressed or I'm feeling overwhelmed. But how do you even begin to really go through that? I'd even make a little list of
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B
like, here's what I want, here's what
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I need to be able to cultivate a spark, like environment.
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A
Yeah. So I think about a healthy relationship, like a house. And house has four sides and all four sides have to be solid and standing for the house to exist. And so those sides are connection, which you can kind of tie the spark into. But I think the spark really is all of them. So connection, communication, conflict resolution, and the mental load, which this becomes the most important for people after they have kids, because this exists for everybody. I mean, kids have mental load. Like everyone has mental load. But it never becomes so impactful to connection or to the relationship like it does once you have kids. So I say all of those things have to be working. And where people start, I usually say, you pick one, right? How's our connection? How's our communication? How's our conflict resolution? How are we balancing kind of the mental load and tasks? And does it feel equitable to both of us? Do we feel good? And you kind of say, like, which is the one that feels the hardest right now? And then we start there. This is also the benefit of having a therapist or having a coach or somebody who, who can also say, I think this is the one that is probably going to be the most impactful for you to start with. But then it becomes like, now you're going again to the deeper levels. If we're starting with connection now, we're looking at all of the things. Are we connecting in the ways that we know matter? Because a lot of times when we get into life, for some reason, relationships go to the bottom of the priority list.
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B
Sometimes our most important ones. Right. Because we feel like you're not going anywhere, so we don't really have to prioritize you anymore, because it's just a given at this point. Like, we're in it.
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A
Well, it's like a car, right? You don't put gas in it. It's gonna run for a while, depending on how much gas you have. It's gonna go for sometimes even hundreds of miles. But eventually it is going to run out of gas, and eventually it's going to stop. And I think that what really affected my marriage the most was that I was running without putting any gas in, and it totally fell to the bottom. I was not prioritizing my marriage at all. And then all of a sudden, we felt it. We felt it big. Like, all of our walls were down. The house did not exist, and we had to just, like, rebuild from scratch.
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B
Yeah. So at the time that that was happening in your marriage, did you know what to do about that? Like, did you go to your own therapy? Is that when you developed your approach to helping other couples solve this? Like, what happened when you encountered that problem in your marriage?
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A
Well, here's the hard thing, because I've been working with marriages for, I mean, almost 20 years now. And it was like, oh, my gosh, it's not working. This stuff isn't working. What is happening? And then you go into, like, now I'm failing, and I'm the, you know, marriage counselor that fails. And, you know, a lot of shame that came up. And so finally, I did kind of seek out some of my own therapy. And to be honest, even that wasn't effective enough. Like, obviously, it's always good to, like, have somebody else that can intervene for you and point out patterns. And so that certainly was helpful. But what I found, especially for parents, is there's this very specific systemic stress that impacts those couples. And I would say, again, you can have different systemic stress based on whatever kind of couple and situation and whatever, but specifically for me, because we weren't tackling the specific systemic stress associated with being parents now. We still were stuck. And so that was kind of why I then created my Own. Because once we figured it out, I was like, okay, I gotta help other people to be able to do this much easier and much simpler than what we just went through.
- [17:39]
B
You talked about the mental load earlier. That that is one of the things that can really affect couples. And so, like, the mental load of all of the tasks that you've got to complete, the events you've got to keep track of, and with kids. And you've got two kids, right?
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A
Yes, two young kids.
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B
And, Christie, you now have an infant. So it's like there's just endless amounts of stuff to do. And so when you realize that that was what was having the biggest impact on your relationship and whether or not you guys had a spark, it sounds like it was functioning really well beforehand. And, like, you didn't anticipate that this mental load would just have such a huge impact. And like you said, you just kind of kept on driving that car. It ran out of gas and. Yeah. So what changed when you realized that the mental load associated with having children was the, like, the biggest thing affecting your relationship? What did you start to do differently at that point?
- [18:31]
A
That's a great question. Because the mental load, let's be honest, it's only something that's very recently become mainstream. Like, really, we had no vocabulary to talk about it. We didn't really notice what it is. And so much of the mental load is invisible. Stereotypically, women end up taking a disproportionate amount of the mental load over men. And so that happened in our marriage where all of a sudden I felt like I was carrying everything, he was carrying nothing. But we never sat down and decided that it just sort of happened. And so I was asking for help, but he didn't understand what that meant. I didn't have the language to communicate what that meant. And it ended up really resulting in a lot of resentment for me. And because of that resentment, it just starts to get worse and worse. And we got into cycle, where he's now defensive. He's doing the whole, like, I can't do anything right for you, or your standards are too high or whatever the normal kind of defensive responses are. And we were just stuck. And it didn't seem like there was any movement there. And so the first step, really, for us was kind of recognizing that this was something that was going on. And again, it wasn't us. It wasn't him not wanting to help me. It wasn't him not caring about me. That's what my brain told me. That was my automatic thought, like, he just doesn't care. And he had to recognize again that my experience was so different from his and how much I was now holding. And so the start of it for us was, okay, it's not you, it's not me. It's this. We are battling this common enemy. And so now I call it marriage shutdown, because it's, you know, what happens. I put a name to it. So we are battling this marriage shutdown together, and we are actually on the same team. And that was really the first step for us, I think.
- [20:35]
C
Something that I keep coming back to. And I'm sure we've all read this book here. Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel is like, have you read that book, Lindsay?
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A
I have. It's been a while.
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C
So I think one thing that I always think about with. And maybe this comes to people's individual backgrounds with some of this stuff, but I always wonder, can safety and sexiness, like, coexist? Right. I don't know if there are any, like, romantic.
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B
Oh, my God. Please comment on this episode. If you are a romantasy person.
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C
If you're a romantasy fan, can your man be your shadow daddy and your baby daddy? Okay, that's like, the balance. Can sexiness and safety coexist in the same relationship in the same spaces as you develop as a person?
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A
I don't know.
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C
It's.
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A
I think it's a good question. I say that sexy cannot exist without safety. You have to have that underlying safety to then be able to explore the sexy, right? You have to have that foundation. If safety is the foundation, like, now you get to grow from there. One of the things that they say about fantasy romance, like, any of those, again, it's always the buildup. It's the desire, it's the tension. But us as humans, like, that doesn't actually feel good if you don't have the safety. And for women, this is stereotypical. Obviously, not everyone kind of fits into this category. But women need a lot of emotional safety in order to be able to even explore, like, physical intimacy or whatever kind of additional form of intimacies now that we're talking about. And so to me, it's like, one cannot exist without the other.
- [22:25]
B
Something that's been coming up for me as we've been talking is just creating a spark. And nurturing a spark, especially years into a relationship, I think requires a willingness to experiment and to try different things out. Because I'm thinking about the homework of, like, okay, go think about what you want and then communicate that to your Partner. It's one thing to imagine what you want and say, yeah, I think I'd like this. It's another thing to actually do that thing and then see how it feels. And so I think what a lot of people get afraid of is that's like a whole fucking process. I don't actually know if I am going to like this. What if I say I want to do this thing but actually don't like it, and then I have to tell my partner actually didn't like that thing that I thought I was going to like? That sounds pretty awkward. And what if I hurt their feelings? And so I think that normalizing, experimenting together, I think can be really helpful. I also think earlier on in a relationship, in some ways there's less to lose. You know what I mean? It's like there's this spirit of experimentation. You're still kind of figuring it out. Like, oftentimes, in the early, early days, you're not being entirely yourself. You know, you can't be. It's like this person hasn't gotten to
- [23:30]
C
know you all that well.
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B
So in many ways, you are kind of playing and you're pretending and you're trying on different Personas with each other. By the time you're years in, it's like, I know you, I know who you are. And so it can kind of shut down some of that experimentation and play that can be more present in the earlier days of the relationship. And I think that's a hard thing to do intentionally, but I think it is a part of getting the spark back.
- [23:53]
A
Yeah. If you look at the top three things that men say helps them to feel connected versus women, they're totally different. And it makes sense, right? We're very different. But one of the top ones that women want is they want to feel pursued, want to feel desired. They want to feel like their spouse wants to know them and wants to be around them. You know, it very much is that early relationship energy. And if you look at men, again, this is stereotypically. They tend early in relationships to go sort of outside of their natural bounds when it comes to emotional expression. So they display their love more. They talk about things.
- [24:35]
B
They're pee talking. Right.
- [24:37]
A
They do all of these things. Exactly, exactly. But not even like knowing that they're peacocking. It's just that their. Their feathers are up and they're not even trying to do it right. And what we find is, again, the longer you're in the relationship, like you said, you're in. You're with me. Like, it's fine. We just sort of regress back to that, you know, where work becomes more of a priority. The emotional expression, like, backs off. And so you get a lot of women that are like, I know you can do it because you were so open. You said all of this stuff early on, but now you're not doing it anymore. The spark must be gone. When really it's this. And again, this is that intentionality that we've been talking about where now he has to figure out, how do I do that? How do I prioritize? I have a reminder in my phone every day at 12 o' clock that says, send my husband a nice message. That's what it says. Because I know that's so sweet. That's important.
- [25:34]
B
And that's what you do in the early days of dating too, right? Like, in the early days of dating,
- [25:39]
A
you're not just like, hey, we need to, like, get this thing done, so
- [25:42]
B
don't forget about this thing, or, hey, are you gonna fill up the gas in the car? Instead we're like, hey, I'm just thinking about you. What are you doing, hottie? Like, you're just thinking about the other person and telling them that you're thinking about them without a to do list item.
- [25:55]
A
Yes. And so I know that I will forget to do it if I don't. And so I have lots of little reminders in my phone for this, because if things aren't written down, like, it just doesn't happen. And so I think sometimes what I hear a lot from clients is they'll say things like, well, but that's not spontaneous, you know, like, do we lose that sexiness? And it was like, well, would you rather it not happen?
- [26:19]
B
Yes, this is intentional and planned. But, like, if you're already in a place where you don't have the spark, this isn't going to cause you to lose the spark more.
- [26:28]
A
And I think also people, when they think about spark, they do think about, like, the sparky. Like, I want to talk to you all the time. Like, we think about that. And for me, spark really looks like, again, having that safety with somebody, knowing that I can, like you said, explore things. I can go up to you and I can say, like, hey, I think that this is something that might make me feel really good. And they don't make me feel bad about it, and they don't, like, make me feel judged or that they care about that and are willing to try it and see. And they're also open to if it doesn't feel good for me if I don't actually like it as much as I thought I would. Right? Like to me, that is where the spark comes from. That's where the true like, oh, I am. I am really loved, you know.
- [27:12]
C
Cool.
- [27:14]
D
Felicia, what's your favorite place on earth?
- [27:16]
B
That's a tough one. It's a toss up between a fancy pants hotel or camping in the great outdoors.
- [27:21]
D
Well, my favorite place on earth is bed. That's why I'm thrilled to share more
- [27:24]
B
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- [27:28]
D
Oh my God yes. The morning after I put them on the bed, my husband turns me wide eyed and goes these are so soft.
- [27:34]
B
Like unreasonably soft.
- [27:35]
D
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- [27:41]
B
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- [27:53]
D
Believe it or not, this is actually our second pair of matching pajama sets. You're actually the one who introduced me.
- [27:58]
B
Aw, I love that for us.
- [28:00]
D
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- [28:03]
B
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- [28:07]
D
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- [28:11]
B
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- [28:17]
C
well I really want to get to some of this stuff on Reddit. It's an interesting spread I think from the stuff that we've talked about. So I'll dive in if that's okay with it.
- [28:29]
A
Yeah, I'm excited.
- [28:31]
C
So this is in the subreddit Marriage Getting the spark back after a traumatic injury without overstressing my husband. Over a year ago I had a major bike accident. I was rushed to a hospital but a nurse waved me off as non critical. A paramedic and young doctor saved my life when they noticed something was seriously wrong. I ended up having a stroke in the ER and what would have been a two to three ordeal became 14 months. I had to learn to walk, fix my talking and I was totally unable to work. I'm currently living in Canada and due to the shortage of rehab beds, I was sent home much earlier than was probably safe. My husband became my primary caregiver, advocate and support worker. It meant my husband was doing working, taking care of kids, making Meals and tending to me, bathing, wiping my bottom, dressing me. Over the last seven months I've improved greatly. I can clean myself, I can cook, dress, and I'm getting pretty independent. I still can't drive, but I can get out. The stroke cooked our relationship. My husband was beyond a trooper and really lived up to the in sickness and health portion of our vows. It was awful being a mid-30s woman and need your husband's help to clean. I haven't worked out like I used to in months and my husband only carved out time for himself by getting up preposterously early for a Run or CrossFit. He has been going nonstop. I'm worried about him. His mom is, my mom is. He can begin to relax now and let me take things back over, but I'm really worried. We've only sporadically had sex in 14 months. We haven't been alone together in months. Our living room became a makeshift bedroom, dining room, entertainment hub. He took a teaching gig to augment his job to cover the cost of a lot of care that was publicly backlogged. But I needed speech therapy, PT, etc. I worry that when this is behind us and the proverbial music stops, he's going to collapse. I've regained strength and can better see things for what they are. I realized I lucked out with my husband. I want to take turns caring for him, but I do not want to burden him. I want to do something nice for him. I've been thinking about getting away. Both sets of grandparents would happily watch the kids for a long weekend to give us that time. I worry that he sees me only as his sickly wife and not someone who's still very romantically and sexually interested in him. I've been taking care of my appearance more and more. I've been trying to lift the burden off of him. I'm seeking advice on things I can do in the short term to let him know I'm still available and help him see me less as someone he needs to care for and protect and
- [30:57]
B
more like we used to be as
- [30:59]
C
two partners in crime.
- [31:02]
A
Oh, I love this. And it's such a good, I think, example of it. It doesn't even have to just be a traumatic accident, but I think any sort of big thing that changes the dynamic where it becomes kind of the caregiver and where it just doesn't feel as equal anymore. So my first thought is like, have you said any of this out loud to him? Even just the stuff of like, I see what you're doing I see the sacrifices. I appreciate that. And being able to kind of tip it into this other thing and also like to him, what would help you to see me less in the role of patient, which I've been for however long, and more like a romantic partner. And what do you need from me? What would we need to happen? And he may say, I have no idea. But like, at least now you're starting that. And again, the more that you can have this conversation and say it out loud, I think people think that if I say this it's going to scare them away or it's going to make them worse or whatever. But I think the person that can really answer that question is him. And the two of you together, what do we need to change sort of the dynamic? We needed that shift. He stepped in. What an amazing man. What amazing provider. And also like, how do we shift it now that we don't need that anymore? And if you notice, the thing that she had talked about was I want to plan some time away. And I think people, this is everyone's go to. We just need to get time together. I hear this with parents all the time. We just need more date nights. We just need to get a weekend away. And yes, if you can get that, take it, take every single moment that you have. But I would also focus on our everyday day to day life grind. How do we start to put this in again? Is it like just sending sexy texts? You know, is that kind of going to be the thing? Does he need to talk to somebody that's not her about some of his fears, but being able to know that the dynamic shifted for a very good reason and we just have to shift it back and where's the starting point to be able to do that?
- [33:10]
B
And I imagine that it's not entirely even a shifting it back, but probably shifting it into an entirely new place because like we can't like undo what has occurred. And I would imagine that after this, I mean they probably feel all sorts of different ways about each other. But it sounds like she wants to feel loved and a different way, different way than she's been loved lately. Right. And that becomes the challenge and the task at hand. And I love your initial response, Lindsay, about. Yeah, just. Have you said anything about this to him? I'm getting the sense that she probably does appreciate him a lot, like saying those things. But I'm curious about expressing her desire for him and that she's wanting that in the relationship and she's wanting that for him too. You know, like getting outside of that role of like patient and caregiver and trying to explore other dynamics that they can create.
- [34:00]
A
I feel like, you know, him kind of taking that on, it sort of created that level of safety that almost nothing else could. Right. Like, I know this person is going to be by my side no matter what. It's been proven to me. And so we've got the safety there. And really what she's saying is, let's add back in the sexy, like, we are ready for it. How do we do do that? I love what you said because I agree. I don't think we ever want to go back because you've gained so many beautiful things during that time. And sure, it was hard and he may be close to burning out and we want to support him too. But I also think that we're growing now into a newer, better version of ourselves. And if you can just again, ask the right questions. So we have the top level, surface level questions with this, like, thank you for being there for me. You know, what kinds of things do you want and need? And then we have to go sort of deeper than that. Like the deeper needs, the deeper fears. Because for him, I would imagine there probably is a lot of fear that, you know, what if this triggers another stroke? And I don't know, I mean, I can't speak for him, but I'm just guessing that there's probably some things there that also, like, let's get that out and let's be talking about those deeper rooted things. Or even for her, I'm fearful that I'm only going to be seen as the patient and I'm not going to become, you know, the woman again. And so can we talk about it from those deeper levels?
- [35:30]
C
I think with the spark thing, the deepest fear is they are not attracted to me anymore or I'm not attracted to them anymore. And I think with OP in particular. But you can also say this for anyone, just as like, bodies change, maybe you're worried that preferences change and OP didn't mention this, but yeah, how does someone address that fear that it's like, maybe I'm just not attracted to them anymore or maybe they're not attracted to me and how much that hurts. And obviously it could just like drill its way into your psyche. What do you say to that when you're working with your clients?
- [36:10]
A
The funny thing is, very, very rarely do I hear I'm not attracted to my spouse anymore. Like, I hear that assumption from the other person. But very rarely is that actually confirmed where somebody's coming and Saying, you're right, I'm really not attracted to them anymore at all. And usually if that attraction is gone, it's more of, like, the emotional safety, like, this person isn't safe for me, you know, emotionally. And so, like, I'm being repelled, if you will. I think that it ends up being more of like, do I believe that I'm attractive now that I've gone through that? Do I believe that I can be desire? Do I believe that I can be a woman who is multifaceted and not just a trauma victim? Right. I think a lot of that ends up being kind of individual work. And it can be work that maybe, like, I need things from my spouse to like, help, help me while I'm doing that work. Can you tell me, you know, how you actually feel about me? Can you tell me things that you love about me? Can you tell me things that make you attracted to me? But they can say that stuff all they want. If we don't truly believe that, it makes it really hard to have that spark too, when we have all of those doubts and insecurities especially. I see this a lot with moms because bodies change so much. And, you know, I. I have people who've had like four or five kids, and they're like, I'm not the same person in any way, shape, or form. I don't think the same things. I don't need the same things. I don't look the same. But I have their spouse over here saying, like, I think they're beautiful. I think it ends up being more about what's the work that I need to do to feel worthy of that kind of attraction. It's more like self image stuff.
- [38:05]
C
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I remember reading somewhere online that even Megan Fox has days where she feels insecure. Right. It's like no one is immune.
- [38:16]
A
Yeah.
- [38:16]
C
And then especially if your body was just rocked by something or whatever. But thank you. That's something that I've been thinking about as we've been discussing this next one. And this is when I want to do a little public service announcement for my parents.
- [38:31]
A
So excited.
- [38:32]
C
Fast forward, mom and dad, because this is some explicit stuff and I think it's best if you do. Okay. Love you so much. Thank you for all you've done for me. Okay, this is in the subreddit deadbedrooms. I'm the wife that says no. Me and my husband have had sex maybe once in the last year. Before that, our intimacy has been slowly dwindling when if he Tries to initiate. I say, no, I'm not in the mood, I'm tired. Or I just straight out ignore him. I go to bed earlier than him. We barely even cuddle. I rarely initiate, but my libido is higher than it's ever been. I'm not cheating. I would never dream of it. But sex is all I think about. I long for a man to take me in his arms, to savor every part of me, to slowly and sensually move hands and mouth all over my body, lingering in the nook of my neck, telling me he loves my scent. I love how she's just like. Is she an author sharing all of her fantasies?
- [39:28]
B
I hope she's writing those all down in a story for us.
- [39:32]
C
So I know, girl, do it for the rest of us, you know, to be strong and gentle and soft and powerful. I want a man to flip me around the bed, to be vocal and tell me everything he wants to be soft and give me everything I want. My husband is not this man man. He rushes sex. His idea of foreplay is pinching my nipples. I've told him a thousand times I hate this. It's not sexual. It's like a medallion radio. He won't whisper sweet nothings. Tell me he loves my smell and how warm my skin is now. Soft my hair feels bunched in his hands. Or how much he loves the soft noises I make. Or how our bodies feel next to each other. He'll tell me he wants to fuck
- [40:14]
B
me, call me his little slut.
- [40:16]
C
And after 30 seconds of rushed sex, he'll tell me to come for him. I want a man who smiles when I walk through the door after being at work, who sometimes buys the wine I like or makes dinner or does laundry, not begrudgingly, just out of mutual love and wants to share a home we're building together. I want a man who treasures me and what I do for our family, who flirts with me during the day, who wakes me up with neck kisses, who doesn't roll his eyes if I want my hair played with. I want sensual, candlelit back massages purely for the love and intimacy, not functional because I've got back pain. Not for the end goal of sex, just a sensual, intimate, caring moment. I want foreplay to be all the time. Not sexual foreplay. Intimacy, sensuality, love, caring, softness. I want a little head poke around the door asking if I'd like to help making dinner. I want. I've got this. When I'm struggling with the laundry basket, I don't want an eye roll And a grumpy fine when I remind him for the fifth time that I would love to make dinner but would like help with the dishes. I want to be loved. I don't know why I want this off my chest, but hopefully there's a man reading this that maybe understands his wife isn't saying no to him. She's saying no to the lackluster effort he's making.
- [41:27]
D
Maybe this will be.
- [41:28]
B
I love how the whole purpose of this is actually a PSA after all of that.
- [41:33]
C
She's amazing.
- [41:36]
B
This is for the ladies. Like, this actually isn't for me.
- [41:39]
C
This is for all women.
- [41:40]
B
Every listen up, take note.
- [41:44]
A
Wow. I feel like men read this because, you know, if you look at the research, like, we know that again, stereotypically most women need this emotional foreplay, if you will. Emotional safety. Emotional, like, build up to be able to get to a physical place. And what she described was so well done in terms of the specifics. It's like, I need you to do things, but this is so doing exactly
- [42:13]
B
what you were describing earlier, which is like, healthy person, like, things that you want. And she gave, like, I don't know, we should go through this and count how many examples.
- [42:23]
C
I just love the idea of her, like, showing this to her husband. Like, oh, my gosh, I saw this post online. But then he's like, wait, I pinch your nipples and call you a little slut. This is about me.
- [42:35]
A
I do want to know, has she shown this to him? I feel like that would be a really good start. And again, you get a lot of sex therapists and what we know is that men really need to hear this a lot in that you have to think about foreplay as all of the time. So it's not just the right before. It's all of the time. It's in the dishes. It's in the, like she said, not grunting when I ask you to do something or to ask you to help me. Right? It's all of those little moments that build up. They also show. Can you do that without the expectation for sex? Because if you're doing that stuff, women don't feel like you care about me. You don't care about individually who I am and connecting with me. Like, you're doing this because you want something and whether that's what you're trying to communicate or not, like, that's what it's communicating. And so again, it's just a really well done example of what that kind of foreplay, you know, air quotes here. Actually looks like she has to have enough space to, like, get herself to a physical place. She has to have enough connection to you to want to go there. These are things that you have to build. And it's not just within the 15 minutes before you want to have sex.
- [43:59]
B
Yeah. And for men who are listening or anyone who is in this particular dynamic with their partner, regardless of your gender, I feel like that advice is a little bit confusing. I can imagine someone being in that position where you're like, okay, so like foreplay all the time, but not for the purpose of sex, but like, you're telling me that's how I'll get to have more sex? And it's like, yes, that is what we're telling you. I just want to say if you're like, what the fuck? This is so confusing. Like, it is confusing.
- [44:25]
A
What do you want?
- [44:26]
B
You don't want to take out the trash. There was this rom com with Jennifer Aniston and I think, and they're having this argument and she's like, take out the trash. And he's like. And then eventually she's like, it's not about the trash. I want you to want to take out the trash. And I feel like that's what this person is kind of saying. And that's the message we're giving. It's like, you actually need to give a fuck about your partner. You need to, like, care. And one other thing I want to say, because it's come up so many times as we've been talking, is the whole situation of men helping with things that are shared responsibilities. So, like helping women with their children who are also your children, or helping women with things around the house, which is also your house. Right. There's this whole way that we talk about how in hetero relationships, men engage with tasks in childcare as if the default is it's the woman's responsibility. Which you were actually speaking to earlier, Lindsay, in your own marriage, it's sort of like you were the project manager of the kids. Even if tasks got done by your spouse, you were the one who was project managing that. And you had to dole out the tasks to your partner if you weren't going to do them. Because we don't assume that the man in a hetero relationship is going to be monitoring that. And so as we talk about men helping their female partners, like, there's a whole structure underlying that concept.
- [45:53]
A
Well, and this is also going to add to the confusion that you pointed out with it, because women also don't want to have to, like, teach you everything. And I think that ends up being this weird thing where it's like, yes, you need to communicate your needs. You need to say if there are specific things that you want, you need to say them out loud. But there is a limit to that. I'll say them out loud, but if you need more now, you can go and research that online and look that up. There's a thousand different ways books that will give you examples. Heck, read this Reddit that. She gave you a lot of really good ideas for what you can do.
- [46:32]
B
Yeah, there's a concept called weaponized incompetence. There's this artist illustrator known as Vulgar Drawings, and she does these great comic strips about weaponized incompetence. And that's basically what you're talking about here, Lindsay. It's like when people don't know how to do something and they basically are unwilling to learn and figure it out. It's like, hey, honey, would you make dinner? And they're like, well, I don't know how to cook. It's like, well, fucking learn how to cook because I'm not gonna cook every meal. I do want to say that it's not like men in hetero relationships are the only ones that do. That's. I was weapon out my competition.
- [47:08]
A
Well, but you see this in same sex relationships, all people do.
- [47:12]
B
Exactly. And so I think being honest about that in your relationships and talking about that together, because it probably does go both ways. And I think there are all sorts of tropes about women doing this in their relationships as well.
- [47:23]
C
Okay, I would love a rapid response from both of you on this. This is also from the subreddit deadbedrooms. Why are there so many young people on here? I've been in my relationship for 12 years, married for 10. I have two kids. We have a mortgage together. Retirement counts. Loans intertwined life. I cannot believe how many people get here under one year, under the age of 25 and or two years not married, and slash or three years, have no children 98% of the time, this issue will never get better, especially if it's been an issue from the beginning. What are you doing? Get out. Life is too short. If you've been dating for a year, had the conversation, and nothing changes, go find a relationship where someone wants to have sex with you. You don't want to be the rest of us. 10, 20, 30, 40 years into this and just feeling desperately lonely every day of your life, everything is great except sex. If you've noticed it, you'll continue noticing it. And the pain only gets worse, eventually turning into resentment and anger if they don't care about it. Now, when there should be moderate nre. Do we know what NRE is?
- [48:32]
A
New relationship energy.
- [48:34]
C
Thank you. It will most likely never be important for them.
- [48:39]
A
I would say that it would be better to start figuring out how to do this early in the relationship. I would rather people start talking about it year one than year 20, 30, 40, because now you have a lot of habits that we're undoing. I would say that most individuals have different sexual desires. The number of times that they need to have sex is like, everything about this, like, it's different. And you have to figure out, and you have to know how to take two people's individual sexual interests, what they need, what their backgrounds say that complicate all of this stuff and be able to figure out how to put those things together into something that is healthy and it works. And so I think that it's not a matter of just always the wrong person, although sometimes it can be. But I think that it's a matter of like, do we know how to do this? And to me, the earlier the better to start having that conversation.
- [49:36]
B
So you would disagree with this poster. It's like for you, you're saying it's not an automatic no. If you're young and you're a year in and you're not having as much sex as you would like, that that means the relationship is not a good one. You should just get out. It might indicate that, but it also might just be an opportunity for you to start developing this skill set. And I think you made a great point that every person comes into a relationship as, like, a unique person. We're very rarely aligned with exactly the same set of preferences. And even if you're generally a really tidy person compared to someone else, you could very easily become the messy one if they happen to be even cleaner than you. And when it comes to sex, you might like to have a lot of sex, but maybe your partner likes to have it even more, right? And then you're in that dynamic. You'll be the person who wants to have sex less. And it's like, that's always something. We've got to figure out how to manage, like, different sets of preferences and needs.
- [50:31]
A
I think that so often we focus on, this is not the right person for us. And we don't always look at the dynamic, what am I contributing? Because like you said, I could get into another relationship. And if I'm acting out the same exact patterns, I Could have the exact same results, or it could even be worse because it triggers them in a certain way. And so I think being able to first make sure, do I even know what I want? Do I know what that looks like? Am I communicating it well? Because, again, it could be that we are just not compatible. Right. And again, I want to do that in the first year or so, ideally. Not to say that it hurts less, but it tends to be a little bit less complicated.
- [51:15]
C
Lindsay's not a quitter, which I think that's a good message, though, to have, because I think the default is like, maybe this is done.
- [51:26]
A
Here's where I would quit abuse hard. No, there is no maybe. There's no effort. That's my hard stop.
- [51:34]
B
And I'd also want to add in, it's okay to leave a relationship if you're not happy for any reason. Right. And if listener, you were like, oh, I don't want to be a quitter. It's like, you can totally be a quitter. That's fine. You're allowed to move on with your life.
- [51:46]
C
Yeah. Quit if you need to. Life is short.
- [51:50]
A
You know, it's that thing about, do you want to. Do you want it to work with this person? That's kind of going back to what I said at the very beginning. It's the only thing that needs to be there. If you don't have that, then I tell people, like, I don't think even working together is a good idea. Like, I could help you with divorce counseling. I could help you with kind of the moving forward. So, absolutely, it's not a fix it all cost. But if you want it to work, I think that there are options. But you don't always have to take that.
- [52:17]
B
Absolutely. I love how we brought it full circle with that. So, Lindsay, when you're working with a couple or maybe even as an individual, and they're saying, like, hey, there's not a spark in my relationship. It's my partner. They're not doing this, they're not doing that. They're the problem. Or what are you really thinking when you're hearing this from a client?
- [52:38]
A
A lot of times when it comes to that, I really get down to, are you doing the things that you need to be doing to keep the spark alive? And again, I don't always say that right off the bat because a lot of people focus on my spouse. My spouse isn't the one doing these things. The ones that I work with. Right. Or, like, my partner isn't doing XYZ thing. And if they started doing XYZ thing, then I would feel better. I would have the spark. It would exist. And it's not necessarily what am I doing that's also contributing to the spark being gone. So I would say the thing that I've usually am not saying at the beginning is something related to that. What's your part in this? What's your issue? Right. Well, we're really talking about, like, what's the dynamic? Because I don't know what their part in it is yet either, but that's
- [53:29]
B
maybe like a session three or four thing that you would say where you'd be like, have you considered you're looking at yourself?
- [53:35]
A
Yeah, it's funny. I just had this reel go, like, mega viral. And in it, I said, I'm putting myself in therapist timeout because I told somebody that they needed to do the laundry, and they can't use the excuse that they don't know how to do it anymore. And it. I mean, we're talking like 3.4 million views or something. And it's that kind of thing where I do eventually say the stuff out loud.
- [54:02]
B
Nice. I love it. Lindsay, thank you so much for being here today. If folks want to learn more about you and your work, how can they find you? I mean, obviously, it seems like social media.
- [54:12]
A
With this post, you can find me on Instagram, married after kids. And the funny thing, this is an aside, but just I think you guys will think it's hilarious because somehow my manychat, those little robots that help you to send out links and stuff, it went rogue. And so on this post, somebody would say, like, this is the comment. Like, well, isn't it a therapist job to call out what they see and what would help a client? But my robot wrote, let's take this to the DMs and continue the conversation there. And so it might be a little viral because I'm this, like, mob boss therapist that's now. Now out there. So again, most of them are not this crazy, but I would love you to.
- [54:57]
B
I'm really excited. I'm gonna go look at that post right now.
- [55:01]
C
Lindsay is known for getting this spark back after having kids and also offending the entire Internet.
- [55:07]
A
I'll meet you out back and we'll have it out.
- [55:09]
B
That is so awesome. That is such a good story. I'm just imagining you having to send, like, sparks responses that are like, I'm so sorry. That's a great, great point.
- [55:19]
C
I love the idea of a bot just being like, ooh, big day.
- [55:23]
B
I'm imagining it like a human that's just overwhelmed and not sure what to do. And it's like, fuck. Like what would Lindsey want? She probably wants to talk to these people in her DMs. Like, I'm gonna tell them that.
- [55:32]
A
I'm gonna tell them in the most aggressive way possible. So yeah, I mean, maybe that's my new identity.
- [55:40]
C
I just love the idea of you being a mob boss because you have just like the sweetest image energy.
- [55:45]
B
She's just out there telling people to do laundry, do some laundry, do the laundry.
- [55:51]
A
Another option is I have a free training. It is called the three Secrets to a Happier Marriage and it is a great opportunity to just get some really good information for how to bring the spark back, get out of being stuck. And the three secrets that really shouldn't be secrets. They're only secrets because no one teaches and no one tells you about them. But the things that really make a difference when it comes to having a healthy relationship. And so I will make sure that you all have the link for people to be able to awesome.
- [56:24]
B
You can find that in the show notes.
- [56:26]
C
Cool.
- [56:26]
B
Thank you so much for listening to this episode.
- [56:28]
D
We're so glad you're here and we
- [56:30]
C
hope you got a lot out of it.
- [56:32]
B
If you're not already following, hit the follow button or subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll be the first to know when we drop another episode. If you have questions for us, topics you'd like us to talk about, or a comment about what you've heard in this episode, drop a review in your listening app or comment on YouTube.
- [56:48]
D
You can also find us on socials, yttpodcasts for show updates and behind the scenes content.
- [56:54]
B
Our DMs are open and now you
- [56:56]
D
can join our new Substack community for
- [56:58]
B
bonus content like what we really thought
- [57:01]
D
about an episode and monthly posts with the books, music, podcasts and products that Felicia and I are loving. Go to whatyourtherapistthinks.substack.com to subscribe.
- [57:12]
B
What your Therapist Thinks is hosted by me, Felicia Keller Boyle and me, Christy Plantinga. What your Therapist Thinks is produced by podvision.
- [57:20]
D
See you next time.