How Do I Get Over Someone? The Science of Heartbreak with Colette J. Fehr

Summary

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What Your Therapist Thinks

Episode Summary: "How Do I Get Over Someone? The Science of Heartbreak" with Colette J. Fehr

Hosts: Felicia Keller Boyle & Kristie Plantinga
Guest: Colette J. Fehr, Licensed Psychotherapist, Relationship Expert, Author
Release Date: March 18, 2026
Episode Theme:
A candid exploration of heartbreak, breakups, and the science-backed path to getting over someone you love. The hosts and their expert guest dig into burning questions about emotional recovery post-breakup, why it hurts so much, and how to actually begin to feel better—with an emphasis on real-world, sometimes messy, psychological truths.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Universality and Science of Heartbreak:
  Breakups, from fleeting flings to divorces, are a nearly-universal emotional experience. The episode explores why heartbreak is so painful, why it’s so hard to move on (especially when you still love someone), and how long healing realistically takes according to science—not self-help cliches.
• Therapist Real Talk:
  Colette J. Fehr, with both clinical and personal experience, dispels myths around heartbreak, details evidence-based approaches to recovery, and directly addresses listener anxieties sourced from Reddit and social media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pain and Science of Heartbreak

• Heartbreak takes time—sometimes years.
  • “It can really take four to eight years to completely get over somebody.” (Colette, 00:00; 21:44)
  • The acute phase of heartbreak is typically a year to a year and a half.
• Breakups Are Not Just Emotional—They’re Physical:
  • Brain scans show heartbreak activates pain centers, comparable to physical injury.
  • “The pain of it is comparable on PET scans of the brain to physical pain, to a knife being stuck in your body and twisted.” (Colette, 09:02)
• Attachments are Biological:
  • We are “wired for connection” (Colette, 09:02). Losing a romantic bond can trigger an existential “death” response.

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2. Why No Contact is (Usually) Critical

• Firm Stand on No Contact:
  • “In my professional opinion, no matter what the circumstances [you should go no contact].” (Colette, 08:23)
  • It’s necessary to let attachment bonds extinguish, much like overcoming addiction.
• Physics of “Relapsing”:
  • Staying in touch resets healing.
  • “Every time I talked to him... initial relief... then I would feel sad again and reset the whole withdrawal process. It’s just like addiction.” (Colette, 12:33)
• Caveats:
  • With co-parenting, only “business professional, talking about the kids only.” (09:12-)
• Online Debate:
  • Some say it’s harsh, but “You have to take care of yourself.” (Colette, 12:33)
• Aftermath:
  • Often, if you reconnect later, "a lot of the time you don’t even care about being friends with the person anyway." (Colette, 17:04)

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3. The Myths and The Reality—How Long Does It Take?

• Not about relationship length:
  • “I don’t think it’s related to the length of the relationship at all. We have the desire to operationalize things so we feel more in control… Unfortunately, humans just don’t work that way.” (Colette, 23:33)
• Acute phase insight:
  • Six months is often the most intense, after which things start to get easier.
• Factors in Healing:
  • Attachment style, self-esteem, trauma or abandonment history, and the on/off dynamic can all impact recovery time. (24:38)
• Validating all grief:
  • “If you’ve been feeling bad because you dated someone for a few weeks, but you’re a wreck months later... it’s not outside the norm.” (Felicia, 24:38)

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4. Practical Tools for Healing

• The Big Three:
  1. No Contact: Sever bonds to allow nervous system reset.
  2. Invest in Yourself: Not about distractions, but real self-care and self-reconnection.
  3. Honest Inventory: Write out both the good and the bad of the relationship and revisit these lists to ground yourself in reality, not longing. (Colette, 03:56-08:09)
• Find Support and Community:
  • Reaching out to friends, relying on your village (“Can I just follow you around for the next few days?”), even sending texts you’d send to the ex to a friend instead (Felicia, 14:23), is a valid survival tactic.
• Limit Social Media Checking:
  • “Even keeping in touch... checking someone’s social media... can keep an attachment bond going. You’ve really got to extinguish it all...” (Colette, 28:27)

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5. Seeking/Needing Closure

• Closure usually doesn’t happen through a final conversation.
  • “You’re either gonna get bs… or you’re not gonna get a real answer.” (Colette, 36:50)
  • Occasionally, it happens—but it's rare and can't be forced.
  • “The reason it often feels so unsatisfying is that if someone’s ending something, they’re just not that into you… and it’s not a reflection of your worth.” (Colette, 36:50)

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6. Common (and Debated) “Advice” – What Really Works?

• The "Get under someone to get over someone" trope:
  • Not a fix-all. Often leads to more pain; may increase feelings of longing.
    • Redditor: “It was the least intimate experience I’ve ever had... I started crying almost automatically and burst into tears when I was sure he couldn’t hear me anymore.” (Reddit, 40:50)
    • Colette: “Most of them in therapy will say, you know, I slept with… 10 different people… and I’m still fucking miserable.” (41:59)
    • If you try, ask yourself: what experience am I really seeking?
• The "You'll find someone else" platitude:
  • Supportive in theory but often invalidating if forced by others.
    • “When you’re in the throes of a breakup… hearing ‘one day you’ll meet someone great’... makes you feel like shit.” (Colette, 45:38)
    • What helps most is simply having your pain witnessed: “Right now, I need a witness to the pain of what I’ve lost.” (Reddit reading, 44:40)

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7. The “One Who Got Away” and Chasing Regret

• Regret and Wanting to Reconnect:
  • “When we’re in the throes of this withdrawal…it’s easy to have this cognitive distortion... This person was meant to be.” (Colette, 32:52)
    • If you ended it and regret it, it’s reasonable to check back once. But often, the reality resurfaces quickly.
    • “Most of the time… that second try, all roads are going to lead back to whatever created the breakup in the first place.” (Colette, 32:52)
    • If they ended it, “that’s all the information you need.” (Colette, 32:52)

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8. Becoming Whole—With or Without a Partner

• Wholeness does not require a relationship.
  • “I loved my life. And then, of course, I met someone, but I had no desire for a romantic relationship at that point.” (Colette, 50:19)
• Self-love first:
  • “Love yourself first. Find a hot nerd. Nothing can go wrong.” (Felicia, 54:31; group laughs)
• Single life is valid and fulfilling.
  • “Are you allowed to be a happy, fulfilled person who’s complete on your own, even when you’re single?” (Felicia, 49:37)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the timeline of heartbreak:
  • “It can really take four to eight years to completely get over somebody.”
    — Colette J. Fehr (00:00; repeated at 21:44)
• Why no contact matters:
  • “Our brain will be constantly trying to find a way to narrate why it makes sense to keep in touch with that person.”
    — Colette J. Fehr (00:15; see 12:33 for full science/analogy to addiction)
• On physical pain of heartbreak:
  • “The pain of it is comparable on PET scans of the brain to physical pain, to a knife being stuck in your body and twisted.”
    — Colette J. Fehr (09:02)
• On not shaming heartbreak:
  • “Don’t beat yourself up. I’ll leave it at that. Don’t beat yourself up.”
    — Felicia Keller Boyle (32:11)
• Truth about closure:
  • “You’re either gonna get bs that is totally not true, right? ‘It’s not you, it’s me.’ You’re not gonna get a real answer.”
    — Colette J. Fehr (36:50)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction and why heartbreak hurts — 00:00 – 05:00
• Colette’s clinical and personal heartbreak experience — 02:33 – 03:56
• The three pillars of getting over someone — 03:56 – 08:09
• Why no contact is essential — 08:09 – 16:29
• How long does it really take? Is it about relationship length? — 21:44 – 24:38
• Coping strategies: friends, self-care, social media — 28:27 – 30:49
• Seeking closure & Reddit heartbreak stories — 35:02 – 43:26
• Debunking “get under to get over” — 40:50 – 44:40
• Dealing with “you’ll find someone else” — 44:40 – 50:19
• Self-love, singlehood, and moving forward — 50:19 – 54:39
• Behind-the-scenes therapist thoughts — 54:39 – 57:30

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Memorable/Relatable Moments

• Felicia texting her friend breakup messages intended for her ex (14:23)
• Colette’s personal story of the “cool girl” who stayed friends with an ex, only to be devastated later (19:12)
• The shared therapist feeling of “agony and powerlessness” as clients repeat heartbreak stories—"I don't mind being that space for someone" (Colette, 56:53)
• Felicia’s shoebox of cards to her future partner during her single years (51:58)

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Actionable Takeaways

• Allow yourself to grieve; it’s normal, it’s biological, and there’s no set timeline.
• No contact is tough but vital for most people; this includes social media.
• Process your emotions in community—friends often help more than advice does.
• Resist platitudes; what most need is space to feel, not advice to move on.
• Self-love, healing, and being “enough” on your own are the foundation—romance is an addition, not a fix.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone navigating heartbreak, craving science-backed validation, or simply tired of the platitudes around love and loss. The message: Feeling devastated is deeply human, and healing is possible—often slower and messier than we wish, but always within reach.

Transcript

[Colette Jane Fair]

It can really take four to eight years to completely get over somebody.

[Christy Plantinga]

There is this internal battle where it's like, is this my instinct versus is this my intuition telling me I need to be with this person the rest of my life?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Our brain will be constantly trying to find a way to narrate why it makes sense to keep in touch with that person.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

You're not only losing that romantic relationship, but you fear that you're losing the relationship entirely.

[Colette Jane Fair]

I'm genuinely not thinking, God, what's wrong with you? What? I'm more thinking thinking that I'll say.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

If you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, a licensed somatic therapist and clinical advisor at Best Therapists.

[Christy Plantinga]

And I'm Kristy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapist and Therapy Connoisseur.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

This is what your therapist thinks. A mental health show where actual therapists open up about real world stories and the questions people wish they could ask them.

[Christy Plantinga]

And by real world, we mean Reddit posts, incognito, Google searches, and the things you want to bring up in therapy, but maybe you don't.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

You'll hear conversations on everything from the best dating advice to adhd, EMDR therapy,

[Christy Plantinga]

body dysmorphia, and more. Sometimes it will make you feel seen

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

and sometimes it'll make you laugh out loud.

[Christy Plantinga]

We're so glad you're here.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Now let's get into the episode.

[Christy Plantinga]

Colette Jane Fair is a licensed psychotherapist and nationally recognized relationship expert. She's the author of the Cost of How to have the Hard Conversations that Create Secure, Lasting Love. And we'll have a. A link to the book in the show notes. And she is also one of the co hosts of the hit podcast Insights from the Couch, Real Talk for Women at Midlife and Love Thy Neighbor, the relationship show. Her TEDx talk, Secrets of a Couples Therapist was selected as a TED editor's pick. Colette, welcome to the show.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.

[Christy Plantinga]

Yes, this is something really almost a universal experience. I think breakups, whether that's a divorce, a long term relationship, even something shorter, breakups can be really devastating. So today we want to talk about how do you get over someone? How long does it take normally? Is there a way to make getting over someone faster? How can I make this, you know, pass? Because it hurts. Right? So before we dive into all of that, do you mind sharing a little bit about your clinical experience with breakups, divorce, and also your personal experience?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Sure, yeah. So this is a topic I Have tons of professional experience in. I mean, I work with people. I specialize in couples therapy, but also in individual relationship therapy. So my entire practice, I've been in private practice for going on 14 years, has been working pretty much exclusively, exclusively with relationship issues. So either you're in it, you're trying to get out of it, or decide if you should get out of it or the recovery process. And of course, as a therapist, you get the privilege of being with people in their most painful moments and trying to help them and also understanding what's going on behind the scenes in people's minds. And you hear many of the same themes over and over again. And these are themes and that I, fortunately for my clients, but unfortunately for me, have also experienced. Not only in my first marriage and divorce, which was very painful and messy, but I've been remarried now for 10 years. In between marriages, there were 11 years of time that I was single and dating. So if anything, I should have a PhD in heartbreak and recovery because I've been through a bunch of different breakups. Not all of them were the same, but all of them were difficult and painful. So I have a lot to say on this topic.

[Christy Plantinga]

Yeah, well, I'm excited to get it out into the world because it's just searched so much, and I think everyone has different things that have worked for them. But truly the professional, you know, with the clinical experience and just your own time of getting over someone, multiple people, I think will be really helpful. So maybe it's too general to start, but how do you get over someone? And I think in particular, maybe someone that you still love, Because I think that's really the sentiment I was getting. And maybe not in all cases. Right. Like maybe divorce, it's like the love has been gone for a while, but how you get over someone that you still really, really care about.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Oh, it's so hard. And you're right. Sometimes with divorce, you've gotten to a point of indifference. You know, I even talk about in my book, relationships really die from emotional disconnection. It's not usually a crises or a difference in issues or any of those things people think. And same goes for breakups. So sometimes you have been emotionally checking out for a long time, and by the time the relationship ends, there might be some relief. It might be that the logistical issues, you've entwined your life with someone, certainly in a marriage, and there's a new identity. So there are so many pieces to grapple with in terms of starting over and recalibrating who you are. Outside of the relationship, but to speak to what you're bringing up, which is, I think, the hardest part. All those other pieces are hard, too, but is when you still feel like you love someone and either you end it or even harder, you've been broken up with. So I've had situations, and I also personally in my life, and I see this a lot in therapy, where intellectually, I know this relationship isn't going to work, but the mind and the heart are not on the same page. And some individuals really attach more strongly than others. And I don't personally believe that that's necessarily correlated to anxious attachment, but it. It can be. You know, for myself personally, that's sort of my default attachment style. Even though I believe these things are flexible and depend on the relationship you're in. Like, I'm securely attached to my relationship now. But particularly if you're more anxiously attached or you have an anxious default style, ending a relationship, even one you don't want, can be very difficult. So the first thing is really knowing it is good. Going to take a lot of time. Nobody loves that answer, but the truth is this is you cannot flip a switch no matter what you do. The old, like Bridget Jones format from 20 years ago of drinking yourself into oblivion, eating every bit of ice cream, playing music, you know, I think that's what most of us try to do, is that we try to distract ourselves because the pain is so acute. But it is going to take time. However, if you do it right, it can take less time and we can certainly dive into all of this. But there are a couple of things that are just really, really essential. And one of them is going no contact, in my professional opinion, no matter what the circumstances. Another is really investing in yourself, not anyone or anything else during this healing process. Right. Putting your own oxygen mask on first and doing the work of healing. And another is really taking an honest inventory of the relationship, writing down what was good and what was bad and continuing to revisit that. So the more we process and stay connected to ourselves and the more we don't have context so we can extinguish that attachment, the quicker we're going to feel better. And even with those things, it's still going to take a while. So I know this is a lot, but those are kind of like three. Three buckets that are super important to heartbreak recovery.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Thank you so much for sharing all of that. There's one thing you mentioned that I want to hear even more about, which is going no contact. I think that's really really interesting. And I'm curious.

[Christy Plantinga]

It's debated online, by the way. Like, I know, but I am. No contact or not.

[Colette Jane Fair]

You're right. You're right. But I am so firm on this. But yeah, finish your question.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Well, I just want to hear more about your thoughts around that. Why you recommend that maybe you've seen the fallout of people doing that and you also shared that it's regardless of what happened in the relationship. So whether it's with a, you know, if you were in a relationship that was really maybe not so good for you versus one where it just wasn't compatible, but there wasn't some. You know, I really don't want to

[Christy Plantinga]

use this word but like toxic.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Yeah, I really try to stay away from that one. I said it just because I can't think of another word. But anyway, why do you recommend this

[Christy Plantinga]

in all cases and how does that work if they're like kids involved? Okay, you just have to talk to someone if logistically there's stuff you have to talk about.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Excellent point. And certainly with my ex husband, I mean we had little girls, so no contact, technically no contact was impossible. But the amended version in the case of a relationship where you have children with someone is going to business professional talking about the kids only. The other caveat I would include is if you're really, really ending a relationship and you have no romantic feelings for this person at all, then maybe it's not necessary. However, what can happen is that attachment is so strong, right? Like let me just say this, and I know you guys know this, but we are wired for connection. We're pro social herd animals. We're meant to pair bond. This is part of our drive. So that force in adulthood that is basically that force that draws you to someone can be as strong as a parent child relationship. So even though we're not dependent for our survival in that we won't technically die if a romantic partner leaves us, we feel like we will. And to our system it really does. It's an exception. Existential death. The pain of it is comparable on pet scans of the brain to physical pain to a knife being stuck in your body and twisted. So this is why you know, when people say get over it, it's not your fault. It doesn't matter what you know here about how toxic. I use that word very judiciously too. Once you're attached to someone like that, your nervous system is constantly trying to push you back toward them, whatever the given parameters are. Ideally, you would not speak to this person at all for at Least a couple of months so that you can reset your nervous system and that attachment can sever. It's really just science. And what will happen is that our brain will be constantly trying to find a way to narrate why it makes sense to keep in touch with that person. Because it feels so awful to sever an attachment bond. And I will say I learned this from experience and of course, working with many, many clients. I once stayed hooked on somebody for two years after a breakup because I continued to have that intermittent reinforcement of. I'd go a little while without talking, and then I'd have a moment, nostalgia or some excuse. Oh, I found this thing and I just have to tell them. And. Right. And inevitably there would be a rush of relief. When I'd first talked to this was this one guy in particular I dated for a couple years. And it was a very limerent, you know, that kind of addictive high, lots of chemistry relationship. And every time I talked to him, I'd feel initial relief. It's just like addiction. It's like the cycle of addiction. And then I would feel sad again and I'd get really, really low and I would reset the whole withdrawal process. So I know it's debated online. What I've seen too, is people saying things like, oh, it's so mean and harsh to cut someone off. It's not. And it doesn't have to be. You have to take care of yourself. And you can also say to somebody, and I've done this myself, like, look, I hope long term to remain friends. But we had to have that initial period of no contact in order to really reset, let the romantic feelings subside. And then down the road, in many cases, you're able to stay friends. But usually that I still wanna be friends is the desire to preserve the attachment. And you're. You're kidding yourself.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Well, we appreciate you giving it to us straight here and also just putting it in terms of science, like the science of how we connect to other humans, how we regulate our nervous systems, how we form bonds. And yeah, I completely relate to what you were saying. There were times when Christy and I were grinning, you know, because I know

[Christy Plantinga]

I was catching Felicia's fans and I

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

was like, this is.

[Christy Plantinga]

This is hidden.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Have you heard some of this too?

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Oh, never. Of course, of course. No. So so much, so much of this is relatable. And what you said about the similarities to addiction cycles, right, of that. That sort of craving that arises, you're feeling that discomfort, you kind of. You experience a trigger of some Kind you read something or listen to something that you think they might like. And you're like, you have that craving of I need to get in contact. And then you do, and it's almost always some disappointment. Right. And it's like, you never give yourself that time to fully, like, reset. I went through a breakup at one point where I did go no contact. I made an agreement with one of my friends that I could text him anything I wanted to text to this other person. So I was sending insane text messages to my friend. I love it so much.

[Christy Plantinga]

He's like, okay.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Because it was crazy because, like, in the breakup, I like, both really missed this person. And I was also very angry and hurt. Right. So, like, the text messages that I wanted to send were like, ranged. You know, they spanned that gamut. Right. So thankfully I got to have the release of writing it out, but not the follow up of actually sending it to the person and continuing to be on that cycle. And that was really useful.

[Colette Jane Fair]

I love that. Yeah. I mean, I've always encouraged people to like, write these things down and not send them, but I love the idea of a safe person you can message instead of your ex. Because really is it's exactly that. You play the tape forward and all roads to re engaging in contact lead to more heartache. I also often suggest people, if we could just get that little pause before we act to just ask yourself directly, is this a loving act? You know, And a lot of times when we communicate with ourselves inside directly that gentle. And we get an answer, your first intuitive answer, you know, you. Maybe you still do it and you fall off the wagon a few times, but usually you'll get that answer of no. I really think that if you are contacting an ex, there's like a part of you, the part that wants that cookie of connection in the short term is hijacking the whole system. And I've even said to an ex once where I was deluding myself into thinking I could keep talking to him, but it was all like, oh, I read this book that you would like. It's just trying to keep the bond. And finally I said, you know what? This is totally on me, but I need to take a break from talking to you. There's no ill will here, but I really need to, like, move on. And I'm having trouble. I just was really honest and vulnerable about it, and I'm still friends with that guy to this day.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

I think that's really helpful for folks to hear because obviously one of the big concerns when you break up and you go. No contact is like you're. You're not only losing that romantic relationship, but you fear that you're losing the relationship entirely. And you might. But what I'm really hearing is that potentially going no contact at the beginning can increase the chances that you could have a functional relationship with this person that you care a lot about, even sooner, as opposed to that whole rollercoaster that we can get on in relationships.

[Colette Jane Fair]

And you know what's so true also, is that in most cases, by the time you should resume having contact, a lot of the time you don't even care about being friends with the person anyway.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

That's the thing, right?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yes.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Did I really want to talk to this person, or did I just want to still feel wanted or still feel special or still feel connected? Was it really that this can connection between me and this person was so valuable, or was it something else? And is there a better place for

[Christy Plantinga]

me to go get this for their personality?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yeah, that was my experience exactly. And you know, it's funny, too. I don't look back on any of my former relationships and think, God, I wish that had worked out. Most things end for a reason. And most of the time, once we've healed, we may take valuable lessons. But we'll think, wow, you know, once those neurochemicals have subsided, all that oxytocin and dopamine and vasopressin that keeps us, like, feeling in love, once all that's gone, a lot of times we look at that person, we may think they're perfectly lovely, but wow, like, that was not working. Like, it is better that it's over. We've just got to get over that hump. You know that guy I mentioned to you that I kept. I held onto for two years. I deteriorated the whole time. Like the relationship was living rent free in my head. It was really sad. And it was exactly what you described missing that feeling of being wanted, that connection, feeling desired, feeling the way I felt about me in the relationship, which is so much of it.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

That's it.

[Colette Jane Fair]

And what it took for me to find finally walk away, which is so sad, is talk about things you don't want to hear when you stay in contact. Increasingly, he was falling in love with another woman. And like a mask, Felicia are like,

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

and you're over here. Like, you've probably been trying to be the cool girl. You're like, yeah, I'm cool. We're friends.

[Colette Jane Fair]

I was totally trying to be the cool girl and being supportive, but then there was some part of me that was like, they're going to break up and it's gonna work out. And then finally, what got me to walk away was, sadly, I called one time for some ridiculous excuse, and he was like, I'm getting engaged to this woman. I remember thinking to myself, this is why I should have gone no contact at the beginning. I would not be in this position now if I had done that. And now I'm even more devastated because we really don't need to hear all of the details of a former part or falling in love with another woman. And then I remember thinking, oh, I hope that, like, they get divorced. I mean, terrible thoughts, right? And then by the time.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

It's so understandable, though, right?

[Christy Plantinga]

Yeah, relatable.

[Colette Jane Fair]

It's human.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

But then the whole Internet is with you right now. Everyone is so on your side.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Well. And finally, we. We cut off content. I mean, first of all, it's, like, wasn't appropriate. I was in so much pain. I realized, I'm not over this guy. I'm not cool girl. Second of all, it's like, why are we still talking? He was like, my fiance, to be. Really doesn't want me to continue to have contact with you. I'm like, okay, I get it. I respect that. And this was actually, like, masochism. Like, I have just, like, tortured myself. So we didn't talk. They got married years later, maybe a decade later, I discovered by accident that they had gotten married and gotten divorced. I know, I know.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

How did you feel in that moment?

[Christy Plantinga]

Yeah.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Can you tell us?

[Christy Plantinga]

We don't tell anyone except for everyone.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Everyone on the Internet.

[Colette Jane Fair]

I think it is so important. That's why I do tell these, like, horrible thoughts, because I think it's so important to normalize them. And it did take me, like, a year after he was engaged to really fully recover. By the time that happened and I found out they were divorced, I remember thinking, gosh, intellectually, a part of me is like, wow, it really didn't work out. But emotionally, I just don't care at all. Right. Like, there was no. And at one point, I would have absolutely killed for that.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Enough time passed is what it sounded like. Like, you finally went, no contact. And what you said happens when you do that began to happen, which is your attachment to this person faded.

[Colette Jane Fair]

And, you know, the science is so interesting on this, too. Like, I did a news segment on this last year at Valentine's Day, that there was an empirically validated study that found that it can really take four to eight years to completely get over somebody now that was my next question.

[Christy Plantinga]

What are we in for when we go through a breakup?

[Colette Jane Fair]

I have to say I was even surprised by those numbers. But I think the acute phase that's most common that I see in my office and that I experience from when something really, really ends, it's definitely going to take about a year and a half. Now, that doesn't mean you're going to be in acute suffering, but there could still be an emotional connection where if you saw them and spent time with them, some feelings might bubble up. And that's not to say you can't date anyone else for a year and a half, but six months, I think is really like the absolute worst time. And then after that things start to get better, but it's going to be a hot minute. And I think what they mean by the four to eight years is really till there's absolutely nothing left toward that person. Now, if you're already. Some people have stayed in a relationship for years and the feelings have already subsided because they're so disconnected, then that might be a little bit different. But if you feel any in love

[Christy Plantinga]

feelings with someone, is it proportional to the relationship length? Because that's another thing I was looking up that was coming up a lot was like the 3, 3, 3 rule and all these other, you know, if you've been with them for this long, this is how many weeks it takes this and this. Like, is it really just the existence of that connection at all or is it related to the length of that relationship?

[Colette Jane Fair]

I don't think it's related to the length of the relationship at all. I think we have the desire to operationalize things so we feel more in control. It feels so good to feel like you process. And okay, if it was three months, then in three months I'll be over it. And unfortunately, human beings just don't work that way. I think it's your. You can be your trauma history, your abandonment wounds, your rejection wounds, how good you feel about yourself, how much of an attachment person. I'm very, very relational. I feel like I attached to someone. Not even a romantic partner. If I meet somebody on a vacation, we hang out on the vacation, a friend, I'll miss them when I go home. You know, some of us are just very relational and quick to attach. Some of us feel more intensely in relationships. And those relationships that are on and off, hot and cold, all that confusion and uncertainty that can heighten everything as well.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Well, damn. Okay, so there's not an equation is what I'm hearing. And I think that could be really validating for people too. You know, if you've been feeling bad because you dated someone for a few weeks, but you're a wreck months later. You know, some people might be telling you, like, hey, you should be over it by now, but that's not necessarily true. And it's not like outside of the norm either. But there are still things, like you said, that can be helpful to begin to ease it. One of the best bits of advice I got from a friend during a particularly rough breakup, because it. It felt like the first bit of it was just like so intense, so painful. And she said every day is going to feel just a little bit better. You probably won't even notice that it's feeling better, but it will feel just a little bit better every day. And within a few months, it's gonna feel really different than it feels right now and. Cause I feel like those first few days are when it's like really hard. Especially if you've got like past trauma. If you've got attachment wound, it might be especially heightened, especially if it was one of those relationships that was chaotic, was hot and cold. That can really mess with you. So those first few days is when things are going to be like, crazy intense and you're gonna want to scratch that itch, you're gonna want to call that person, you're gonna want to do all those different things. It's gonna be really hard to resist, potentially. But if you can resist the urge and do other things, go connect with other people, try to as much as possible, even though it's hard, focus on other things, you'll probably notice that just a little bit, day after day, it'll feel better. And within a few months, it will not be feeling like day one after the breakup.

[Colette Jane Fair]

It's so true. It's so true. If you don't do these things, like relapsing continuously when you're in the throes of that pain, it does get incrementally better. You may still miss that person or have waves of grief, but three months after a breakup, you're gonna be in a very different place. You know, I have two daughters in their 20s, so I've also seen them go through a lot of breakups. My younger daughter just went through one, and there was crying every day. And she lives far away, so she'd call me and I just listened to the same thing over and over and her cry. And then a couple weeks in, she was like, okay, I'm sad, but like, I'm better. She was like, I only cried once today. You know, where the first couple of days, she's like, I was crying pretty much all day. Like, I had to go home from work.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

And you can't stop thinking about it. Oftentimes in those first few days, it feels like it's hijacked your brain. Christy, is any of this related, relatable for you?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yeah.

[Christy Plantinga]

You know, I am of the experience where none of my relationships prior to my husband, except for, like, maybe one, were like, that emotional. It was very much the, like, cotton heavy, you know, hot and cold kind of things. But I felt it. And I remember the first time I was in high school, and I had this boyfriend that I really, really cared about. And I remember it felt. Felt like, honestly, someone ripped my heart out of my chest. I was like, this hurts. I had no idea it could just be so physically painful because I think a lot of us think that our emotions and our bodies are separate. Right. But then to feel how much that affected you physically, which makes the neurological, scientific side of things make so much sense, because everything in your body is like, fix this relationship. Even though, again, head and heart, you know that they're separate, and you can't listen to your heart all the time. But I never wanted to break up. I was like, I know breakups suck, so I'm really hanging on to this guy.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

So your plan initially was to never experience a breakup?

[Christy Plantinga]

Yeah. I was like, I want to be in love once it worked out for me okay. I don't think that was, for me, trying, though. I think it just kind of happened, and the world was like, you're not ready for love. And I'm like, that's fair.

[Colette Jane Fair]

One of my best friends who's a therapist, she actually co hosts my podcast with me. She's been married to her boyfriend since she was 18. Now, my first husband, I met when I was 18, but I'm divorced, so she works with a lot of people going through breakups, too, but she hasn't experienced it. Of course, it's therapist. You don't have to go through what a client's going through to help. But it's just interesting. Often when we talk about this, she'll say. Or I'll say, you know, you have, like, gotten so lucky that you've essentially escaped heartbreak since high school. It is the worst. And I just want to normalize that. As awful as it is when we're young, if you're out there dating after divorce, dating with children, dating with a job, you have to go through. You have to function you have to be there for people. And I just want to add something to this because we live in this world of social media. We can't assume escape it. I'm on it too. Everybody's on it. And something I think people don't appreciate is that even keeping in touch, those things keep an attachment bond going. Checking someone's social media, looking at your story to see if they looked, even that can keep the thing going. So you've really got to extinguish it all in order for this recovery period to set in. And during the initial phase, when it's so hard, that is a good time to distract yourself. Maybe you don't get wasted every day just because that can be dangerous, but finding other friendships in particular that are supportive. Make plans with your friends, do whatever feels good, and self care until you ride out the initial phase.

[Sheila]

Welcome to Small Talk with Sheila. This is a podcast for anyone chasing joy, craving creativity, and learning to love their messy, magical life. Each episode is a bite sized blend of stories and misadventures rom combing your life even when things feel awkward. New episodes drop every week, so hit subscribe and never miss a juicy story. I promise it'll feel like an unhinged voice note from your most honest and hilarious friend. Listen to Small Talk with Sheila on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

One of my friends went through a breakup and she called me and was like, hey, can I just basically follow you around for the next few days? Like, I just don't want to be by myself. She had to like go through her girlfriend stuff. They were living together. She's like, I can't do this, I need help. I went over to her house and I was like, yours are Gabby's. Yours are Gabby's. Like, she was like, is mine. It's Gabby. I was like, hey, we're moving it. Like, moving on, let's do this. And she was like, that was so helpful to me just to like go be with somebody else. And so if you have a friend like that that you can kind of just like tag along with, and if you guys are close enough that you can be like, hey, I'm going to be a bummer. Like, and with my friend, I'm like, it's fine if you're sad. I don't need you to be happy. You can just go sit in my living room so that you're just not by yourself. I think as adults, we can put a lot of pressure on ourselves to not be a mess about this and to be like, you know, I'm an adult, so, like, I shouldn't be worri worried about this or it shouldn't affect me like this. But no, it's really, really hard on our systems because like you said, Colette, we're inherently social animals, and we forget that we have things like instincts. And when we form a bond with somebody and then that bond ends, it can feel, like you said Cristy, like your heart got ripped out of your chest. There is that physical component to it. So, yeah, don't beat yourself up. I'll leave it at that. Don't beat yourself up.

[Colette Jane Fair]

No, I think that's really important. The don't beat yourself up part. Yeah. Because it does feel like that I

[Christy Plantinga]

feel the need to voice something that is very much a sentiment online, which is like, maybe we're supposed to be together and there's this path of the regret. And, like, are there signs that someone maybe shouldn't have broken up? It's so interesting because there is this internal battle where it's like, is this my instinct of just. Yes, that animal instinct. I want to repair the bond. I should be this person versus is this my intuition telling me I need to be with this person the rest of my life? What are your thoughts on that?

[Colette Jane Fair]

So I think this is the power of that connection, Right? How immediately we can second guess ourselves. When we're in the throes of this withdrawal, it's easy to have this cognitive distortion, right? This distorted thinking that says, like, this, this person was meant to be. I do believe that what's meant for you won't miss you. And I don't know that. I believe there's one person we're destined for. If you have that, this is the one who got away. I'll never feel love like this again. I would tell you I felt that way, like, six times in my life, right? And every time, eventually there was someone else, you know? So I also think, okay, this is one of those strategies that your mind can do to try to trick you into reconnecting, reopening, revisiting. If you really feel like you are the one, let's just say, like, you broke up with the person, you're regretting it, or something happened and you didn't do your part to repair. All right, Give yourself a chance to go back and say, hey, I have this feeling that I might have made a mistake. Could we give this another try? Most of the time, not all the time, but that second try, all roads are going to lead back to whatever created the breakup in the first place. But maybe you need that one experience. However, if someone's broken up with you and your mind is telling you, oh, my God, this was wrong, just know those feelings are normal. But if someone ends something with you, like, that's all the information you need. Go to your friends with that feeling. Sort it out in time, you'll see that something else better that was meant for you will come into your life. But I would never suggest somebody go chasing someone who's ended a relation. I understand the instinct to. And I just think that, like, this is the one who got away. Feeling is just another symptom of what our nervous system's going through.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

This made me think of another thing that comes up in breakups is asking why.

[Christy Plantinga]

Right?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Closure.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

I have been on both. Yep. I've been on both the, like, receiving and the giving end of that conversation. I've been asked by somebody, why are you doing this? And I've also had the impulse to ask and maybe have asked in the past. And I feel like it's never a satisfying conversation.

[Christy Plantinga]

Right.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

The one.

[Christy Plantinga]

Right.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

The one exception to this was, like, years after I had broken up with somebody who I had gone no contact with, he wanted to stay in touch even though we were broken up. And I was like, I don't want to do that. And it wasn't even to help get over the breakup. It was because I'm like, I don't want to be your friend because dating you was not a good experience. Therefore, I don't want to be your friend.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Right.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

It was, like, years and years and years later, out of nowhere, I got a text message from a number I didn't recognize because I had deleted his number. But it was, like, clearly from someone who knew me, and he was reaching out to a apologize to me for how he behaved in our relationship. And that was super unprompted, super validating, and really reparative. But what was really cool about that is that it came from him. Like, it wasn't me trying to get him to tell me what I wanted to hear or him trying to make me feel better in a moment because he felt uncomfortable or guilty. It was he. He'd gone through his own journey, came to his own conclusions, and felt the need to apologize. And that was amazing. That was actually satisfying. Any other time I've tried to go get answers to these questions from somebody else, it always sucks. It's terrible. It pulls open that wound again. But this was a great experience. But I couldn't have controlled that. That's the thing it's like, so my. I can't. I'm not giving this out as advice, like, wait five years for your ex to call you back, you know, But

[Colette Jane Fair]

I can see why that would be so helpful. Like, I think everyone in some way deserves that almost. It does remain this question mark, especially if you're just left with, you have no idea what had happened. But I think the reason it often feels so unsatisfying is that the truth is that if someone's ending something, they're just not that into you. And what we have to do is remind ourselves, as painful as that might be, especially if we still have feelings and we want to be with that person. It is not a reflection of your worth. It is not a reflection of your value. And that can be hard in the aftermath of a rejection or being broken up with. But it is the way of the world, right? Every pot has a lid. And you do want someone who can't imagine not being with you. They're willing to work on it with you. They want to learn how to get through life's ups and downs. Not somebody who's unsure, right? But really someone ending it is kind of the right. They're not into you enough to choose you for whatever reason. And we usually don't get closure. You're either gonna get bs. That is totally not true. Right? It's not you, it's me. You're not gonna get a real answer.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

You're not gonna get the answer. You're not gonna walk away from that conversation being like, ah, I feel better and resolved. No, you're gonna walk away from that conversation feeling probably a few different ways. One might be, oh my gosh, well, we should definitely get back together. Cause I can absolutely change that thing about myself or them or it's going to be like that. I can't believe they said that. I actually need to send them a follow up text to tell them what a piece of shit they are. Right? You're really not going to get closure. Just wait 5 years till he texts you and says he needs to apologize. That's my best advice.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Exactly. And you know, even though it was nice to hear, you don't need it at that point. We all feel like we want closure, but it's kind of a fault thing. Breakups are so hard that even when a relationship isn't working, a lot of times somebody has found somebody, even as a distraction or something, just to be able to end the relationship. And you certainly don't want that information if it's the case, it will only hurt your heart.

[Christy Plantinga]

This is a perfect transition to some content from Reddit that I would love. Both of your takes on this is from the very intense subreddit breakups. The best way to get over someone is to get under someone else. Okay, I just, like many people in this community, have been told this a handful of times after my breakup, I decided, hey, maybe it's true and I should give it a shot. It's been over two months. Maybe I should get myself out there. So I texted an old hookup. He was immediately game to come over and he did. And we slept here together. It was the least intimate experience I've ever had with someone. I felt almost nothing. I was completely void of feelings and it was not fun at all. There was a complete lack of attraction, care for each other and what how the other was feeling. It was just purely awful, terrible, gross sex that I regret. We didn't speak much, we both cleaned up and he left without saying anything but later or trying to kiss me. Which is good because almost immediately after he finished, I started crying almost automatically and burst into tears when I was sure he couldn't hear me anymore. Don't always listen to people who say to move on by sleeping around. It's not a fix all. You probably won't find the love and warm feelings you used to have and it might set you back. You may not find the intimacy you crave. Take your time. I wish I took mine. Listen to yourself and if this happens to you and you regret it almost immediately like me, give yourself some slack and a break. Sure, you may miss physical intimacy, but the intimacy you will most likely find isn't what you're missing. If you aren't ready, don't force yourself to be ready or feel ready.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

It doesn't work.

[Christy Plantinga]

There's no one size fits all when it comes to genuinely helpful advice. The only person who really knows when you're ready to get out there is you.

[Colette Jane Fair]

So good. I think this writer hit the nail on the head. There's no one size fits all. Again, back to how we're talking about the pain you're in and you'll do anything to just not feel so lonely, not feel so painful. Like not have the thoughts of the person constantly in your head. But sometimes it really backfires when you try to go hook up with somebody else. It actually makes it worse. You only miss the person you love that much more. Now, I do think men tend to, and I'm not saying it's right, but men tend to use physical intimacy with other people as, like, a way to not feel, to use that distractionary technique than women. I think we're more connected to our feelings. I mean, I'm speaking in broad generalization, so obviously this doesn't speak for everyone, but just what I've seen in my office. But I think it's not really good for men either. And most of them in therapy will say, you know, I slept with like, 10 different people thinking it would make me feel better, and I'm still fucking miserable, you know? So I think it sometimes can be a temporary distraction, but a lot of times it can bring more pain.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

What really jumped out to me about this post was this person wanted to have a particular experience that they didn't have. I don't think the advice of, like, if you want to get over someone, get underneath someone, is necessarily wrong. I think it probably can be useful. But what I think people should do is ask themselves what they're looking for. Like, what experience are you trying to have through doing that? Is it just to, like, do something other than obsess over the person you've been thinking about for a little while? Like, okay, cool. But is it to feel really intimate and close with someone? Okay, so, like, probably not. The guy you just have random hookups with, like, that need probably isn't going to get met. And it may be the case that the need that you really want to get met will not be met through a hookup of any kind. Because maybe, like, you know, you don't have a person who you can do that with, in which case you just have to, like, forego getting that need met or, like, look for it maybe in different people in different ways. But, yeah, I'm personally not opposed to this advice, but I think anyone who's going to try it out should just ask themselves what they're really looking for and if this is the best way to go get it.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yeah, if it works for you, great. I just think to your point about what you're looking to get out of it. If you're in that early, acute phase of heartbreak, it's mo most likely going to make you miss that person more. And it may also distract you for a little bit of time, but then after, you may be feeling even sadder. So you got to weigh the pros and cons, you know, for you, but very individualistic. I think there are people who just don't know how to sit with pain at all. And then heartbreak is like the worst pain. So I think it comes from the desire to just avoid the pain but at some point, if you want to have another healthy relationship and a healthy relationship with yourself, and I think this is important to say, even though we're saying it implicitly, you're going to have to go through some pain to heal from a heartbreak. There's valuable lessons in every relationship that doesn't work out. Not just about relationships, but about who you are, what you want, what works for you, what's important to you. So, so working through and sitting with some discomfort is great. So if you are going to get under someone, don't do it all day every day so you have some time to process your feelings.

[Christy Plantinga]

I so curious about what you two think about this next one as well. So this is from the subreddit Divorce. Don't worry, you'll find someone annoys me. You'll find someone that treats you like the queen you are. First off, off, calm down, I'm a peasant like the rest of you. Second off, I don't know that I'll want a partner or when. If I've learned anything through all this, it's that I can't predict how future me will feel. It's like they're rushing me. That's the future. Right now I need a witness to the pain of what I've lost. I'd rather hear, is there anything you need? Let's get lunch and also bring me food. When I say I've been eating yogurt for dinner for months, my friends laugh and go OMG girl dinner. Like no bro, this is a cry for help. Feed me. My friends have honestly been great. I'm just poking fun. But really, people should stop jumping to the silver lining when someone is grieving. So what do we think about the don't worry, you'll find someone comfort?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Oh God. I 100% agree with this person too. You know, we as therapists know the importance of just holding space for people, giving people permission to feel. People who are not therapists, not all, but many, are just not trained to do that. And I think it's just hard to see someone you care about sad. So people tend to come up with all kinds of platitudes. It's well intentioned, but it really lands as invalidating. I think it really makes people feel not seen and that they don't have permission to feel how they feel with you. So I agree. If you have a friend going through a breakup and let's say you don't know what it feels like or it's been a while, don't try to fix it for Them, they may need to say the same thing over and over until they don't. You feel the way you feel until you don't, like, let somebody just be where they are. Because when you're in the throes of a breakup, one thing is for sure. Hearing one day you'll meet someone great. A, doesn't feel true, right? It just doesn't even feel true. And B, it makes you feel like shit.

[Christy Plantinga]

That I was kind of wondering, because I think that I've done this too. After a breakup with someone, me believing it kind of like that guy, like they just weren't good enough for me and I'm gonna find someone. I kind of have wondered, is that an okay thing to believe just to kind of, like, get through the moment? Or is it kind of like you're missing the work a little bit and it's just kind of like punting off your problems to like, I didn't do anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with me. It was that guy. Basically, you're not dealing with, like, your feelings. Is it just kind of like a balm thing? Like, it was all their fault? I'm fine. There's someone out there for me. I feel mixed about it because sometimes I think we need to believe. Like, yes, there is someone out there for me. Just because this doesn't work out doesn't mean I'm unlovable. Versus, Is that the only thing you cling to? And then you're just kind of like, missing the point.

[Colette Jane Fair]

If that's helping you, that's great. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Inner. It's very empowering. I wouldn't just try to force yourself to believe that. If it doesn't feel entirely true, that's normal too. But I think that idea of, you know what, it is accurate. Everyone deserves someone who treats them well. I think the problem is when somebody else is trying to force that narrative on you before you're ready. But I think for you to go, you know what? Fuck that guy. Fuck that girl. Like, I'm great. And I think that that can help a lot. Maybe that'll help you get over some of the initial phase, and then you can look back on the relationship when you're feeling a little more grounded and settled and not as emotional. We need a little bit of perspective anyway, usually to get the most valuable lessons from a relationship. So I think that's great. If you have that inner dialogue and it's resonating.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

I agree. I think there's no problem with Feeling that way, at least at some point. And my question, Christie, would be like. Like, was that the only thought and feeling you had? Or did you have a more nuanced view of that relationship at some point? Or was like, the party line, like, fuck this guy. I'm great. There's nothing I need to change or grow or shift about me.

[Christy Plantinga]

I definitely think it was the clarity. And a lot of times it was true that, you know, I deserved better. But the only thing that kind of frustrates me and very much frustrated me about that at the time was it's like a Dean Martin song. It's like, you're nobody until somebody loves you. It was kind of like that. It's like, it'll be worth it because someone's gonna love you. And it's like, well, what if that doesn't happen?

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Oh, my gosh, what then?

[Christy Plantinga]

You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of what it brought up for me a little bit when I was thinking it. So it's like, okay, so I'm only worthy then if somebody loves me in the future, as opposed to, like, maybe this just didn't work out and that's it, and it's fine, and maybe I'm not gonna have a partner. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was always badly. Those two things.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Well, it's like that whole question of whether being single is valid. Right? I think you're bringing up a really great point that could honestly be, like, its own episode on the show, which is just, like, how we treat being single in our culture, you know? And, like, are you allowed to be a happy, fulfilled person who's, like, complete on your own, even when you're single? So I think that belief of, like, like, I'm great, and, like, I'll find someone who cares about me is not a bad belief at all. And I think there's always room and breakups to look at. Like, how did I show up in this relationship? And where's there room for me to grow? So I hope that makes sense. I agree. Yeah. What do you think, Colette?

[Colette Jane Fair]

I just think that belief of, like, I'm great and I'm gonna meet someone can maybe get you through as long as you are doing that part at some point of saying, what can I learn from this? What can I own? Is there a pattern? I mean, I think it's always important to have an assessment whether you're breaking up, you're being broken up with, because, again, every relationship holds such valuable lessons. And even though it is our drive because we're so relational to want to think we want to be loved, we want to be chosen. And because multiple things are true at the same time, it is totally valid to be single. And we know we need connection. But it doesn't have to be romantic. I just think when you're in the throes of heartbreak and you feel rejected or abandoned, that idea that someone else will love you, that you are lovable, that this isn't the end, can be so, like, such a lifeline to get you through. And by the time you've recovered, if you're going no contact and doing all these things to nurture yourself and spend time with your friends, you know, by the time I met my now husband, I was genuinely, genuinely at a point where I loved my life. I was like, I don't know that I'll ever be in a romantic relationship again. I was like, maybe when my kids are grown up, but maybe not. I love my life. And then, of course, I met someone, but I had no desire for a romantic relationship at that point. I was really happy on my own.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

That's, I think, such an important place to aim for, like, if you're struggling to be there. I just really want to validate that. I was single for quite a long time and really, really wanted to be in a relationship I was dating, but like, not in anything serious for quite a few years. But one of the practices that I started doing during that time that brought a lot of comfort to me and I would, like, love for other people to get to do this too, is. Well, I would often go into, like, gift stores or whatever. Like, I'd go there to buy a birthday card for a and inevitably I'd see cards that people would get for their boyfriends and girlfriends and loved ones. It made me sad that I didn't have somebody to get that card for. But one day I bought a card and I wrote a message to my future person. And I have a shoebox filled with cards that I wrote over the years to the person I would be with. And I imagined them. I was like, oh, this person is alive right now. They're somewhere on the planet. Maybe they're happy right now. Maybe they're getting their heart broken right now. Maybe they're on some cool adventure that they're gonna tell me about one day. And actually just got engaged in him getting married soon.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Aww.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

And he doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to give him the shoebox full of cards.

[Christy Plantinga]

That's what I was gonna ask is he getting the shoebox.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

He's gonna get the shoebox full of cards.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yeah. I remember sitting on my back porch with a best friend, having a glass of wine and saying, I just want to date a guy who is not on these apps, who is, like, into his kids. He's home. He's not out at bars. He's, like, a nerd. He's out there somewhere. He could be right around the corner. And only a few weeks later, I met my husband, and he lived right behind me. We were neighbors, and I had not met him in seven years of living in that house. I do believe if you really want love, you will find it. And having a relationship that's healthy and mutual, but sometimes we have to persevere for a while or we find love

[Christy Plantinga]

with ourselves first and can confirm the hot nerd strategy personally. And, Felicia, I believe that also worked.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Okay, three for three.

[Christy Plantinga]

A hug your hot nerd. You cannot fail with this. This strategy.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Hot nerds, you heard it here first. Go find a hot nerd, and all will be well.

[Christy Plantinga]

But love yourself first.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Love yourself first.

[Christy Plantinga]

I think I should say that.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yeah.

[Christy Plantinga]

Love yourself first. Find a hot nerd. Nothing can go wrong. Felicia, I believe it's that time of the.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

It's that time. Okay, so, Colette, when you've been working with clients around this topic, someone who's experienced a breakup, has there ever been a moment where you're like. Like, you know, you're thinking something, but you're not gonna say it because you're that person's therapist and not their buddy? You know, has there ever been, like, something that you're like, oh, like, if this is my friend, like, if we were on my back porch drinking wine, I'd say this, but they're my client, so I'm not gonna say it. Like, what are you really thinking when somebody is dealing with a breakup?

[Colette Jane Fair]

I mean, usually I say it. I try to say it gently, though, obviously, because it does help in this case that I really do know what it feels like. I would never say that. Like, come on, you know this. I know this feels bad, but there's someone out there for you. I think the more powerful thing is to validate that and say, you know, at some point, you're going to feel very differently. But that point is not today. So for the most part, I'm pretty transparent with people, but I'm also tapped, tactful about it. Right?

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Like, and I don't wait, though, because here's the question. The question is, is not, what do you say in Session. But what are you thinking? So what full permission here. Like, what is the. What is the non tactful thought that you're having? Yeah, probably, like, you wouldn't share.

[Colette Jane Fair]

The non tactful thought is, like, that the person doesn't deserve you. Or at times, I think as a therapist, you can feel you care about your clients. It's the same feeling I'll have with my daughter and when they go back to the same guy. But I've been there, too, so I don't think. I'm thinking. I'm genuinely not thinking, God, what's wrong with you? What I'm more thinking that I'll say in a tactful way is like, oh, there's a part of me that, like, just wishes we could find some way to, like, get you over this. And yet this is, like, where we are, and it's okay. We're gonna work through it together.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Amazing.

[Christy Plantinga]

Because I think, like, other therapists you've had on the show have kind of expressed this in, like, a very loving therapist way, but kind of this, like, get over it, you know, like, do you ever have that? Where it's like, oh, my God, we've been talking about this for so long. Do you ever have that?

[Colette Jane Fair]

Not really, because I've been there. Truly, I really don't feel that way. I feel like, how you feel when you care about somebody and you wish they could be over it. Agony. It's that powerlessness feeling. But I don't ever feel like, God, why are we still talking about this? And I'm not saying it's bad if you do think that, because I think it's human. Just, I have been that person that had the same exact heartbreak conversation 50 gazillion times. And I needed to say it again. I'm an external processor, so I really get it, and I don't mind being that space for someone.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

This has been such a wonderful conversation, and thank you for sharing all your insights with our listeners. And there's so much compassion and permission in this episode for people to be where they're at in the process that everywhere along that spectrum that what you're feeling is normal. And you gave us a lot of really helpful tips, too, so thank you so much, Colette.

[Colette Jane Fair]

You're so welcome. I thank you for having me. This was so much fun, and you guys are just a pleasure, so thank you. Yeah.

[Christy Plantinga]

And you can order Colette's book if any of this resonated with you. Obviously, like the book. Do you talk about breakups in your book? Or is this just.

[Colette Jane Fair]

No, but I give an approach to communication called self connected communication that is transferable to all relationships. So even though it's not focused on breakups, I think it's really valuable for your relationship to yourself and others, not just romantic.

[Christy Plantinga]

And we're all in a relationship of some sort.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Exactly. So. And if you want to avoid a breakup or make your relationships stronger, then it sounds like this would be a great resource. Or if you're currently single and dating and you want to not repeat some of the patterns you've had in the past, but you want to start your next relationship maybe with a new set of skills, it sounds like there are going to be some good tips in there.

[Colette Jane Fair]

Yeah, that's really what it's about. How to have the hard conversations that make our relationships healthy. So thank you. Thanks for plugging the book too. I appreciate it.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Yeah, yeah, of course. You got it.

[Christy Plantinga]

Do it.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

[Christy Plantinga]

We're so glad you're here and we hope you got a lot out of it.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

If you're not already following, hit the follow button or subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll be the first to know when we drop another episode. If you have questions for us, topics you'd like us to talk about, or a comment about what you've heard in this episode, drop a review in your listening app or comment on YouTube.

[Christy Plantinga]

You can also find us on socials, yttpodcasts for show updates and behind the scenes content.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Our DMs are open and now you

[Christy Plantinga]

can join our new Substack community for

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

bonus content like what we really thought

[Christy Plantinga]

about an episode and monthly posts with the books, music, podcasts and products that Felicia and I are loving. Go to whatyourtherapistthinks.substack.com to subscribe.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

What your THERAPIST Thinks is hosted by me, Felicia Keller Boyle and me, Christy Plantinga. What your Therapist Thinks is produced by podvision.

[Christy Plantinga]

See you next time.

[Felicia Keller Boyle]

Sam.