Why Are Evangelicals Becoming Eastern Orthodox?

Summary

White Horse Inn — "Why Are Evangelicals Becoming Eastern Orthodox?"

Hosts: Rod Rosenbladt, Kim Riddlebarger (with contributions from Gary DeMar, William Pinel, Richard C. Halvorson, and callers)
Date: May 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This classic White Horse Inn episode, originally broadcast in the early 1990s, revisits the enduring theme of Christian nationalism and explores why evangelicals historically—and today—are attracted to forms of Christianity outside mainstream evangelicalism, such as Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Using satire, historical examples, listener calls, and lively debate, the discussion focuses on the dangers of conflating patriotism and faith, warns of the idolatry of nation-worship, and examines how American evangelical churches have often substituted civil religion for biblical Christianity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Perspectives on Nationalism in the Church

• Idolatry of Nationalism:
  • Rod opens by comparing moments in biblical, Reformation, and 20th-century history where faith and nation became dangerously intertwined, from Amos and Amaziah (750 B.C.), to Hugh Latimer in Reformation England, through Germany's churches in the 1930s.
  • Quote: “I can't remember when I've ever seen a group of Christians worshiping so profoundly. The only problem, of course, was that they were worshiping America.” — Rod Rosenbladt (06:40)

2. Patriotism vs. Nationalism in Worship

• Defining the Difference:

  • Kim Riddlebarger: Patriotism is appropriate outside the context of worship, but nationalism within a worship service borders on idolatry (07:17).
  • Quote: “The idea of the kingdom of God being associated with a particular geopolitical entity with a nation is really foreign to the scriptures.” — Kim Riddlebarger (07:35)

• Personal Stories:

  • Rod and callers share experiences of overt nationalism in church: flags draped over altars, patriotic songs during offerings, and church services themed for military events (08:04–10:10).

3. The Seduction of Civil Religion

• Christ and Culture Collapsed:

  • Discussion about US evangelicals seeing salvation as achievable through political processes or national victories (10:32–12:26).
  • William Pinel references Eric Hoffer’s "True Believer," observing that mass religious movements turn either socialist or nationalistic, with US evangelicalism tending toward the latter (11:41).
  • Quote: “Nationalism really is an idolatry, chiefly because it’s a rival to the cross.” — William Pinel & Rod Rosenbladt (12:29)

• Civil Religion Lacks Scandal:

  • Gary DeMar and Kim Riddlebarger point out that civil religion offers belonging without commitment and rarely includes the "scandal" of the cross (32:53–33:12).

4. Theological Critiques

• Two Kingdoms Doctrine:

  • Luther’s "Kingdom of the Right" (church) vs. "Kingdom of the Left" (state) is discussed, emphasizing that mixing these spheres is unbiblical (15:21–15:58).
  • Benjamin Franklin & Eisenhower are cited to show the preference for a harmless, generic religion underpinning the state (15:58–16:25).

• Regulative Principle:

  • Caller Dave asks how the regulative principle of worship (only do in worship what is expressly commanded in Scripture) rules out nationalistic displays like flags, but many evangelical churches ignore this (22:37–23:57).

5. Sociological & Cultural Consequences

• Crowd-Building and Popularity:

  • Nationalistic themes can be crowd-pleasers, creating excitement and belonging, but at the expense of gospel proclamation (29:06–30:19).
  • Quote: “We get them in with the wrong reasons and keep them for the wrong reasons. … That really is idolatry. It is gospel denying. It is heretical.” — Rod Rosenbladt (29:55)

• Civil Religion vs. Biblical Christianity:

  • Citing Herbert Schlossberg: “Civil religion prescribes aspirin for cancer and biblical religion insists on the knife.” (26:41)
  • The church's mission ("preaching the gospel and administering the sacraments") is obscured by national identity (30:20–31:43).

6. Unity, Division, and the Universal Church

• Nationalism as a Source of Division:

  • Listeners and hosts note the damage done to the witness and unity of the church when patriotism replaces a focus on Christ (25:41–26:39, 34:22–35:25).

• Dual Citizenship of Christians:

  • Christians have citizenship both in their nations and in God’s kingdom; roles must be kept distinct, especially during worship (35:48–36:10).
  • Quote: “God is not on the side of any one particular nation.” — Kim Riddlebarger (36:28)

• Whose Side Is God On?

  • A story is told of American and German soldiers celebrating Christmas together, asking hard questions about God’s favor in national conflicts (34:49–35:25).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rod Rosenbladt (on seeing patriotic fervor in church):
  “I looked around me and saw entranced brothers and sisters... I can’t remember when I’ve ever seen a group of Christians worshiping so profoundly. The only problem, of course, was that they were worshiping America.” (06:40)

• Kim Riddlebarger (on importing nationalism into worship):
  “The idea of the kingdom of God being associated with a particular geopolitical entity... is really foreign to the scriptures.” (07:35)

• William Pinel (paraphrasing Eric Hoffer):
  “For a religious movement to really be revolutionary, it has to turn socialistic... or it has to turn nationalistic. And to me, that’s where evangelicals are today.” (11:41)

• Caller Olive (on exclusive worship):
  “God is a jealous God. ... It’s not God and country at that particular place, it’s God.” (18:35–18:48)

• Gary DeMar:
  "Civil religion papers over the cracks of evil and biblical religion strips away the covering, exposing the nasty places. Civil religion prescribes aspirin for cancer and biblical religion insists on the knife." (26:41, quoting Herbert Schlossberg)

• Kim Riddlebarger:
  "To replace the proclamation of the word of God and the administration of the sacraments with a patriotic motif is idolatry." (31:43)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• Opening & Historical Review: [01:31–07:17
  Stories from Amos, Hugh Latimer, WWII Germany—tracing church/nation idolatry]
• Defining the Problem: [07:17–10:15
  Patriotism vs nationalism, American church anecdotes]
• Panel & Guest Expert Comments: [10:15–13:03
  Discussion with William Pinel and Richard C. Halvorson]
• Theology of Two Kingdoms: [15:21–15:58
  Proper separation of church and state powers]
• Callers on Nationalism & Worship: [17:03–26:41
  Personal experiences, regulative principle, the left and right using the pulpit]
• Sociological Analysis: [29:06–32:53
  Crowd attraction, substitutes for the Gospel]
• Unity and Global Church: [34:22–36:10
  Perspectives on whose side God is on, dual citizenship]
• Summary and Next Topics: [36:10–37:25
  Previewing future shows on prophecy, pop psychology, and prosperity teachers]

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Tone & Style

The tone is earnest, reflective, and sometimes satirical—with biting theological critique and pointed historical examples. Dialogue remains accessible and relatable, especially through vivid personal anecdotes and direct responses to listener questions.

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Takeaway for Listeners

This episode underscores how confusing national identity with faith is both dangerous and persistent. The hosts repeatedly return to biblical cautions against idolatry of every kind, whether left or right, insisting that the church must recover its identity as the body of Christ—set apart from every earthly agenda. In doing so, the episode foreshadows current conversations about why some evangelicals seek older, more rooted traditions (like Eastern Orthodoxy), hoping to escape the entanglements of Americanized religion for a more historic, Christ-centered faith.

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Transcript

[Sola Media Host]

Here at Sola, we just launched our newest project, the Sola newspaper, a quarterly print publication featuring articles on theology, the historic creeds and confessions, and reflections for the Christian life, delivered straight to your mailbox for free. To celebrate, we're turning back to the archive and revisiting classic episodes of White Horse inn from the 90s, episodes on nationalism and why some evangelicals are attracted to Catholicism in Eastern Orthodoxy. It's easy to think that the movements evangelicals find attractive today are new, driven by social media and the peculiar pressures of the present moment. But listen to these conversations from 1991 and 1996, and you'll realize that many of the topics Christians were wrestling with 30 years ago are being repeated today. We hope you enjoy these classic episodes. And if you'd like the next issue of the Solar newspaper sent to your door, head over to solamidia.org newspaper to subscribe for free.

[White Horse Inn Announcer]

Five centuries ago, in taverns and public houses across Europe, the masses would gather for discussion and debate over the latest ideas sweeping the land. From one such meeting place, a small Cambridge inn called the White Horse, the Reformation came to the English speaking world, carrying on the tradition. Welcome to the White Horse Inn.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

There are many ways to contrast biblical Christianity with pop religion, and satire is one of those ways. That'll be our approach this month as the White Horse in goes to the circus. Next week it's 91 reasons why the prophecy predictors will be wrong in 91. Then next week, the next week after that. That is the tower of psychobabble. And then finally a look at the faith Teachers with those little gods must be crazy. But tonight the circus is God and Uncle Sam is God an American or is America a God? Go back with me, if you will, to the year 750 B.C. to the center city of Jerusalem where the prophet Amos is confronting the high priest Amaziah. Because of Israel's idolatry and materialism, the high places of Isaac will be destroyed and the sanctuaries of Israel will be ruined. With my sword I will rise against the house of Jeroboam more than any other charge. Being unpatriotic was chief against Amos. You just don't prophesy against God's holy city. So Amaziah wrote a memo to the Amos is raising a conspiracy against you in the very heart of Israel. The land cannot bear all his words, for he says that Israel will go into exile away from their native land. Then we read Amaziah said to Moses, get out, you seer. Go back to your own land of Judah. Earn Your bread there and do your prophesying there. Don't prophesy anymore down here, because this is the king's sanctuary and the temple of the kingdom. Amos prophecies came true. Now let's go to the year 1548 AD in London, England, where Hugh Latimer, one of the leaders of the English Reformation, is addressing the royal court. In the royal chapel, the preachers, he charges, from the royal pulpit, treat the scriptures as strawberries, not meat. Now, what shall we say about these rich citizens of London? Shall I call them the proud men of London? Merciless men of London? No, no, I may not say so. For we must not offend the nobility of the kingdom. For advancement, ministers meddle in the affairs of state. But a bishop hath his office, a flock to teach, and therefore he mustn't meddle with another man's office. Let him mind his own business. Let the priest preach and the nobleman handle the temporal affairs. So today he says, I fear it's down with Christ's cross. Up with the money bag. Away with clothing the naked the poor. Up with expensive churches. Down with the old honor due to God, and up with the new God's honor. Seven years later, Latimer was burned at the stake by Queen Mary. Now let's take one more step into the time machine as we arrive in Berlin in the year 1933, as the masses welcomed their new chancellor, stabbing the air with a salute. Sieg Heil. While the institutional evangelical churches, by and large, both encouraged and rode this wave of nationalism, there were a few courageous leaders, both Lutheran and Reformed, who dared to face the idol of nation before it unleashed the reign of terror they knew it would. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and numerous other Christians shared the horror of death in a concentration camp next to their Jewish companions. Some years ago, I attended a major evangelical convention where the President of the United States was about to speak. We were all excited, myself included. A medley of patriotic songs were sung by everybody anticipating the President's arrival. In the middle of one of the hymns, a man walked to the podium with a wire leading to his ear and and placed the seal of the President on the podium. As he did this, the crowd erupted in applause, leading to the national anthem, at which time hands flew up in the air, waving back and forth. I looked around me and saw entranced brothers and sisters with eyes closed, tears streaming down their faces and even weeping. I can't remember when I've ever seen a group of Christians worshiping so profoundly. The only problem, of course, was that they were worshiping America. President Eisenhower once said, during the supposed revival of the 50s, America makes no sense unless it's founded in a deeply religious faith. And I don't care what it is. Our churches were perceived as being on the side of the establishment for the last, oh, 30 years, like Amaziah, never criticizing, only blessing. And now after Operation Desert Storm, there's a new wave of patriotism and nationalism. One Sunday morning when we had Alistair McGrath, an Oxford professor staying with us, I turned on the TV to find every single evangelist or pastor doing a nationalistic theme on one program. He turned to me and said, well, I suppose God comes every week. On one of the programs, Rod and Kim, that I saw over the Operation Desert Storm period. When I mentioned we had Alistair McGrath from Oxford with us, the vice president was speaking and flags, American, huge American flags, draped the sanctuary, even draping the front altar. And as the vice president gave a sermon with no text defending US action, the congregation raised to its feet in extended applause. And as this happened, Dr. McGrath turned to me and said, well, I suppose God comes every week that absolutely. Now we don't want to give the impression that we're unpatriotic. I know for myself, every time I hear the national anthem at a football game, I get teary eyed. I'm a very patriotic person, but when I hear it in a church service, I get angry. Why is that?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, I think that deals with the whole question of the relationship between patriotism and nationalism. And when that whole subject enters into the sanctuary of a worship service. Now we are talking about idolatry. Unfortunately, it is a tough subject.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Why would you call it idolatry?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, the idea of the kingdom of God being associated with a particular geopolitical entity with a nation is really foreign to the scriptures. And that's a tough one for Americans. I think that's why Dr. McGrath from England was so shocked by that. An Englishman would not think in those categories. But we as Americans have grown up with mom, the American flag and apple pie, and it's really easy for us to carry that into the church with us.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

So America is not God's chosen nation. Yeah, I've had lots of these experiences. I remember nationalism was always a big part of church life growing up. I gave a message sometime back in a church outside of Washington D.C. a big evangelical church, during the offertory when the offering plate was brought up front. I had never seen this done in a church, but things like it, they held the American flag over the offering and sang God Bless America. Now I've seen Things like that. Rarely to that extreme, but things like that. And it absolutely turns my stomach.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, I think that would be okay if you did that at 2:00 clock in the afternoon and you were using the church as an auditorium. But when you're doing that for your morning worship service and you're draping the flag over the giving of tithes and offerings to support the work of the ministry, that sends a signal that really confuses nationalism with the gospel and that crosses the line into idolatry.

[Gary DeMar]

France did this back in its history and has never regained its position. The church sided with the. The powers that be and they lost both the intelligentsia and the working class and never regained them.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Happened in Germany, too. And I think, you know, the thing is, regardless of where you stand, for instance, on the Vietnam War, I mean, even represented among the three of us, we'd have probably three different views. Nevertheless, it was very interesting that during that period, the lone Christian voices that wanted to raise some moral questions, I mean, at least there were obvious moral questions to be discussed in the whole matter, were immediately silenced by those evangelical leaders closer to the White House. And isn't it perceived that many, by many people outside of the church, that really all religion does is sanctify the establishment? It never criticizes. It's a priest and never a prophet.

[Gary DeMar]

Yeah, it's hard to criticize the person who gets that impression.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

We're going to take now a slice of a terrific discussion that we had some time ago from Made in America, a videotape we did with U.S. senate Chaplain Richard C. Halvorson and William Pinel from Fuller Seminary.

[William Pinel]

I've lived in Washington 30 years and I hear it all the time. They never verbalize it quite this way, but what they're saying is if we just get the right man in the White House, and it's got to be a man in the White House and the right people in the Supreme Court, in Congress. We've got the kingdom of God now. That's what we have to do. And this concerns me a very great deal.

[Richard C. Halvorson]

Yes, I'm glad you brought up the question of salvation, because I think that's precisely where the world is. I think there is a consensus in the world today, as no other time in our history, that the human race needs to be saved. I think that's what communism is about and other isms, I assume that's what it's about. Which leads, of course, inevitably to contemporary idolatry, which is called nationalism. All rivals to the cross, to the degree the church capitulates to that series of ideologies often so very attractive options to the degree that the church is seduced, to that degree, the church loses confidence in the power of the gospel. And the cross is just something you wear around your neck.

[William Pinel]

Eric Hoffer, who was a longshoreman, philosopher, he didn't pass the eighth grade. I believe he finished the eighth grade, but they still wanted to teach at Stanford University. He wrote this book in 51, True Believer. And I just reread that book recently because it had such an impact on me in the 50s. But Eric Hoffer says for a religious movement to really be revolutionary, it has to turn one of two ways. It has to either turn socialistic, and I see in that the whole liberation theology movement, especially in Latin America, or it has to turn nationalistic. And to me, that's where evangelicals are today, pretty much.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

That's interesting.

[William Pinel]

Nationalistic.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Dr. Packer. I'm sorry. Dr. Pinel, in that discussion, made the point that the cross just becomes something you wear around your neck, that nationalism really is an idolatry, chiefly because it's a rival to the cross.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, sure it is. And it's a very seductive rival because who wants to speak out against the flag?

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Well, wasn't that the rival really to the cross, even in Jesus Day?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Oh, you bet it was. We don't want a messiah to save us from our sins. We want somebody to beat up the Romans.

[White Horse Inn Announcer]

That's right.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

And don't we run into the same difficulty when we impose that on Christianity in the late 20th century here in America?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

It's the same situation.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Another story I remember hearing very recently about an evangelical leader who was speaking in a big evangelical church, and just before he was to get up and preach, it was during the Operation Desert Storm thing again, and they sang the national anthem, and he got up and he walked out of the church, got in his car and drove home in protest. Do you think that that is an adequate. Was he being unpatriotic?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, I'm sure he would be accused of that, but that's a matter of conscience. When someone like that is in a situation where he feels idolatry is being committed, he has no other choice but to leave. I don't see many other options for him on that.

[Gary DeMar]

This is very common in evangelical gatherings.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Well, yeah, it's not something you see all of the time, but having been to many evangelical conventions and seeing it in churches and on television, I think where it is most profound is not in local churches so much as on Christian television and in Christian Entertainment.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

It makes a good show. Patriotism.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Exactly.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

The music is exciting. Everybody rallies around the flag. Desert Storm is a very popular cause. And it really is a way to kind of a hook a bite, a way to get people to pay attention and watch what's going on.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Yeah. Luther made the point that idolatry is far more fervent than true piety. There's a lot of zeal in that. I remember Sister made the comment when we were watching some of this stuff that it really is true that people want something to feel good about. If they don't have enough with Christianity, they have to feel good about their country. Well, now it's terrific to feel good about your country, but does that mean a you're not critical America, right or wrong, or more chiefly germane to what we're talking about? Does it even mean you can have it as an idol?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said you get a tear in your eye when you sing the national anthem in front of a football game. That belongs before a football game. It does not belong in the worship service of a church. That's the distinction.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Didn't Jesus say, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's?

[Gary DeMar]

Yes. If I might bring Luther up here. He spoke of the two kingdoms, the kingdom of the Right and the kingdom of the Left. The kingdom of the right was the kingdom of the church, and it was not given the power of state, state or forced baptisms at swords point or any of that. Its only power was word and sacrament. And the kingdom of the left, which was not to be confused with the kingdom on the right, was the kingdom of the state. And it had a legitimacy of its own. God had given it and instituted it. And the idea was that the state would reward those who did justice and punish evil doers. That was the idea. But it was God ordained for that purpose and not to be confused with the other.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Benjamin Franklin, one of the founding fathers, said that America ought to be governed by a benign religion. Now we all know what something benign is. If it doesn't have cancer, if it's not harmful, it's benign.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

A harmless little deistic deity who's not going to bother us.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Absolutely. That the 51% vote can live with the sort of benign religion of school prayer and other sorts of issues.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

The civil God, the unknown God that we saw in Mars Hill.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Yeah, absolutely. What do you think about all of this? Obviously the lines are lit up when leading sociologist Will Herberg saw The so called revival of the 1950s that Eisenhower hailed when he said, we got to have a deeply religious faith and I don't care what it is he observed. Herberg, the sociologist, observed this revival is a religiousness without religion. A religiousness with almost any kind of content or none. A way of belonging rather than a way of reorienting life to God. Canton, Orange, Good evening.

[Caller Gary]

How are you doing, guys?

[Gary DeMar]

All right.

[Caller Gary]

Okay. I'd like to kind of look at a different rabbit trail. Maybe the church itself, I think, has its own form of nationalism or socialism. As mentioned before, I hear a lot of churches saying, look at what we as a church are doing as opposed to look at what Christ is doing through us as a church and kind of like taking the glory for themselves. And I see a lot of churches comparing themselves to other churches. See what we're doing, see what we're doing, as opposed to God working through them.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Excellent point. Absolutely. Well, you know, nationalism, I think, is collective narcissism. We all worship ourselves and nationalism is an opportunity to create an idol of me collectively.

[Gary DeMar]

Yeah. In my church, we're finding more and more as time goes by, clergy from both sides, more moderate and more conservative, find it very, very difficult to keep talking about Christ without mixing the church in with it. Now, in classical theology, that was associated with Rome, but in my church, it's very difficult for them to talk about Christ too long without it being rolled over into church language.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Marcia, what do you think about all this?

[Caller Olive]

Well, I really think that the church structure should be used strictly for worship and communion with God. I don't think patriotism has a place there, although I think patriotism has its place. I don't think it belongs in the church.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Now, what would you base that on?

[Caller Olive]

Well, because I think, as the scripture teaches us, God is a jealous God. When we go to church to worship God, that's what we are there for. It's not God and country at that particular place, it's God.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

I am a jealous God and I will give my glory to none other. Boy, I will tell you, you hit the nail on the head there, Marcia. I wonder if Jesus Christ would come back and see his holy house of prayer turned into a celebration of nation with American flags draping the altar and the pulpit and everything else. What he would do.

[Caller Gary]

I think that's why his church is

[Caller Olive]

being built as a body of people versus a structure building.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Absolutely.

[Caller Olive]

I think that's what he meant when he said, I will destroy this temple and raise it again in three days.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Talking about his own body. Absolutely. Thanks a lot for the call. You know, Halvorson, later in that discussion, too, made the point. He says Christ promised he would build his kingdom. The problem is the one we're building,

[Kim Riddlebarger]

he said, you know, that relates to the whole resurrection motif. There were a very popular advertisement floating around for an Easter service that had a whole Desert Storm motif.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Tell me, during Easter.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

During Easter, with fireworks and soldiers and flags and the whole deal. Now, tell me, what does that have to do with Jesus Christ's conquering of sin and death in the resurrection? We turned that into nationalism.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

I'm sure we could find someone who could make the connection. I remember when I was little, in our little church, a guy got up on 1 4th of July Sunday and held up the American flag and told us how the Founding Fathers created the American flag based on Christianity. The stars represented all of the promise to Abraham. You will have more descendants than stars in the heavens. And the stripes were by your stripes, his stripes, we are healed. Honest to goodness. It was many years until I said, now, wait a second. That was just like the Easter Bunny. That's not true at all. Olive and Rosita, good evening.

[Caller Olive]

Good evening. I just had a comment about that religion and patriotism seems to be more prevalent today than. I don't say church. I say body of believers. That I think people go to church. So many members in church, they go there forgetting that Christ is with us every day, everywhere. And I don't feel the worship and the glory of the Lord in the worshiping. If you were worshiping with patriotism.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Okay. So you would be offended if someone got up and sung the national anthem in the middle of a service?

[Caller Olive]

If it was spiritual and. Yes. And the Lord was moving, I would feel that that was not letting. Giving Jesus the glory.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Okay. That it would not be or that it would be.

[Caller Olive]

No. That it would be wrong.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's what we're saying, and I think you're absolutely on target there, Olive. Appreciate the call. Thanks a lot. Dave in Mission Viejo. Good evening. What do you think about this stuff?

[Caller Dave]

Well, I think it's a rather interesting subject as a whole. I just want to paint a quick context for you. In our church that my wife and I have been visiting lately, there's a huge American flag in the right hand corner of the sanctuary. And every serviceman that has returned so far has been returned and received with a standing ovation during the worship. Now, I come from a very strict Calvinist background that teaches the regulative principle of worship. And I've been scratching my head for a long time now trying to figure out how that can constitute a legitimate element of worship. And I'm just wondering what you all think about the regulative principle of worship. Not only is it brought to bear on this topic of patriotism, but also just evangelical churches across the spectrum who use drama in worship, as they did on Palm Sunday and other such notions.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Dave, I think that's a terrific question. As you know, that whole debate is raging in our Reformed circles. Rod. I don't know if it's raging as much in Lutheran circles.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

It's hard to picture Germans this. These Lutheran Germans dancing in a service. Now, I can see them marching, but I can't see them dancing.

[Caller Gary]

Right.

[Gary DeMar]

That's exactly right. You get us dancing and we feel funny and we look funnier.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Well, you know, I think as far as the regulatory principle goes, it's absolutely amazing that in many of these churches, if there were a crucifix in the church, people would go absolutely nuts. They'd have a fit because they would say, well, you're worshipping a statue, or if you had statues of the saints, or if you had a cross on the altar or anything like that, people would go absolutely nuts. But to have a flag up there, people don't seem to have a problem with it. And yet flags aren't commanded in scripture anywhere.

[Caller Olive]

Absolutely.

[Caller Dave]

Can I make one related comment as well? Today was part of the weekend of a national thanksgiving for what our troops did in Operation Desert Storm. And today our pastor actually read the announcement from President Bush. And I'm sitting there as my normal cynical self saying that this was written by a public relations representative whose specific job it is to relate to the evangelical community and woo that community's votes come election time. And, you know, I'm trying to sit there and concentrate on the Lord and worship the Lord. And I found that particularly disturbing. Not that we can't praise the Lord for returning our troops safely, but this whole discussion also preceded that the war was a just war in the first place.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Well, and the thing, too, you have to wonder whether or not it was a just war. You have to ask the question. There's a large body of evangelical believers in Iraq. In fact, there is quite a large evangelical church in the capital. And I have to wonder what that body of evangelical believers thinks about American Christians thinking that God is so much on our side in every conflict, that we not only fight against Saddam Hussein, which may or may not be a just war, that's not for our debate here. But you wonder what would an Iraqi Christian visiting America think or an Iraqi who has never had an exposure to the gospel. When we try to preach the gospel to non Americans or to Arabs, don't you kind of wonder if they will even listen to us because it's so draping Americana?

[Caller Dave]

Oh, absolutely. And it just seems that we're lapsing back into the old dispensationalist era, you know, associating the physical nation of Israel with, you know, the people of God as opposed to viewing it from the reformed perspective that the people of God have existed from the Abrahamic covenant on up to the present time. And it just seems that whenever we associate the people of God with a particular nation, we're only getting ourselves in trouble.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

My kingdom is not of this world. Jesus told Pilate. Absolutely. Dave, thanks a lot for the call. We certainly appreciate it. Gary in Compton, good evening.

[Caller Gary]

How are you doing?

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Fine.

[Caller Gary]

I think Kim said something very important, that as long as the church is used at 2 o' clock in the afternoon as an auditorium, that's a different situation because in the churches black inner cities, our pulpits have been transformed into a rallying point, particularly with the Darrell Gates situation and whether we had just simply replaced worship. And now we have used the pulpit for any and everything, particularly as we have local elections coming up. We have nothing about God in the pulpit anymore.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Well, that brings up, Gary, the whole subject of, you know, this is not just a right thing, this is also a left thing.

[Caller Gary]

Exactly.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

It's not only the political right, it's the political left, really. We're being co opted. The gospel is being co opted by political parties on both sides.

[Caller Gary]

That's right.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

And Christians from all different cultural backgrounds are going to have to stand united in this against that, whether it be from the left or from the right or in the rich white suburbs to the inner cities. I mean, it's a struggle we're all going to have to fight.

[Caller Gary]

Exactly.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Great comment, Gary.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Yeah, thanks a lot for. Yeah, you bet. Thanks a lot for calling. We appreciate it. Herbert Schlossberg in his book, excellent book. Encourage you to get hold of it. Idols for Destruction is the title he says civil religion papers over the cracks of evil and biblical religion strips away the covering, exposing the nasty places. Civil religion prescribes aspirin for cancer and biblical religion insists on the knife. Do you think that our nationalism has replaced the gospel? Do you think that our cross has been replaced with stars and stripes? Lynn in Anaheim, good evening.

[Caller Gary]

Yes, we took the flags down at Your house. No, I'm kidding. Seriously, My comment was, if you take Christian nationalism to its two logical extremes, perhaps on the left being socialism, on the right being theonomists, but one question is, where do you. Do you wind up with post millennialism in this?

[Rod Rosenbladt]

It's an interesting question. Thanks for asking.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, first of all, we needed to find what post millennialism is that historically has been a part of the Reformed tradition, primarily in America. The idea that the kingdom of God advances to such a point that the church brings in the kingdom of God on earth and prepares the world for the return of our Lord. So that kind of view at looking at end times is very optimistic and it fit in very nicely in evangelicalism before World War I began and when World War I sent all of Western civilization crashing from optimism towards pessimism, that's when dispensationalism and the idea of a pre tribulation rapture and everything getting worse.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Everything getting worse.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

The idea was now you could go from instead of social involvement to saying, wait, we don't have to be involved in the things of the world because after all, Jesus is going to come back and take us away from all those things.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Why polish the brass on a sinking shoe?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Sure. So now there's a sense in which we've had the Reagan revolution and people are optimistic again about the future. And all of a sudden there's an increase in post millennialism and an increase in patriotism and nationalism.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Yeah, it really does go up and down with the culture. But post millennialism has played a role in nationalism in the past, but it is also encouraged social involvement which the present nationalism doesn't seem to have quite as much an interest in. Pat in Fullerton. Good evening.

[Caller Gary]

Yeah, I work for a local church in Garden Grove that's quite large and quite well known, and I was wondering if you guys would comment. It seems to me that a lot of this patriotism and this nationalism in the church, it appears to be almost a ploy to build the crowds. Popular subject, you know, who wants to speak out against the war now that it's been successful? And I've seen it used as like a tool to increase church attendance and increase the crowds. Could you guys comment on that? Have you run into that or seen that?

[Gary DeMar]

Well, one of the things that's always difficult is to speak with authority on someone else's motives. But you have to follow the old onion principle in philosophy that if it looks. Looks like an onion, smells like an onion and tastes like an onion, it just might be an onion.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

I think that's true. There are a lot of gimmicks out there. We get people in for all the wrong reasons and we say, well, at least we got them in. Now they'll hear the gospel. The problem is we get them in with the wrong reasons and keep them for the wrong reasons. And so what binds us, the tie that binds us is our common national identity. And the. That really is idolatry. It is gospel. Denying it is heretical.

[William Pinel]

Yeah.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

It transcends a lot of different cultural and ethnic and sociological camps. And it is a good hook to get people from different backgrounds to a place because everybody can celebrate nationalism. But again, the flag and the rally around the troops in Desert Storm, while good things in and of themselves. It is good to be patriotic. It is good to feel good about what the soldiers are. Have done and all of that. To use that as part of Sunday morning worship is to obscure and to erase from the church the primary vehicle that God has sent the church to earth for, and that is to preach the gospel and administer the sacraments.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

You mean that wasn't included in the Great Commission? Go into all the world and preach

[Gary DeMar]

your nationalism this morning, very simply, you probably did the same thing. We had a short prayer. Thank you. You know, following Bush's admonition, you know, we had a short prayer thanking the Lord for the end of the war and that.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

You bet we did.

[Gary DeMar]

So forth and so forth. And we went immediately then to the Lord's Supper, to the sacrament.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Well, we have prayers, too. In fact, we prayed today that we would ask God's protection of the president, of the governor of this state. That's a regular part of the program of worship and that's, you know, commanded in scripture. Exactly. Paul testimony. Peter and Paul. That's right, absolutely. That we pray for those in authority over us. But that doesn't mean nationalism to replace

[Kim Riddlebarger]

the proclamation of the word of God and the administration of the sacraments with a patriotic motif is idolatry.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Don't you think, too.

[Gary DeMar]

Quit equivocating, Kim.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Don't you think, too, that we want to do this for the larger society? Pat made the comment that don't we really want to do this so it'll bring in people and so forth. But don't you think that there are many people out there who look at a TV preacher with a big enormous flag going up behind him during a worship service? Yeah, the Marine Honor Guard playing. Don't you think a lot of people look at that and say, yeah, right, I'm going to listen to this guy.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, face it, our theology dictates a lot of what we're going to do in our churches. And if you're in a church where the will of man is sovereign, then what better to celebrate than the collective triumph of a nation and a collective group of human beings in the will and the triumph over an evil will? And Saddam Hussein. I mean, it fits in with this whole. The whole theology that says man is sovereign, man is the one who determines his future, man is the one who allows Jesus to have his way with them. If you're thinking along those lines, what better to celebrate than a war where there's a collective victory for all of us to celebrate?

[Gary DeMar]

And the other thing is that in this, there is very seldom the skandalon. The New Testament speaks of the scandal of the Gospel. And in a nationalistic gathering within some sanctuary, you don't have the scandal. The scandal of the cross is not really a part of it.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

And more people come because there's no scandal.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Tom and Westminster, good evening. Yeah, Mike, what's your question?

[Caller Dave]

I just wanted to pass along a comment that I heard and wanted your comment on it. At an interdenominational ministry. In the closing prayer, one of the gentlemen said. Thank you. That we have won the victory in this recent war and attributed it primarily to the US's protection of. Of Israel as God's chosen people.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Okay. Well, as far as a comment to that, I think we would say that what that's founded on is the belief that Israel is still the national geopolitical land of Israel is still God's chosen nation. And we believe very strongly that God's kingdom is universal in it's not Jewish or gentile. It is a universal kingdom. And God has no obligation to either Israel or to America or to any other country. He's not anybody's mascot.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

And it's clear from Scripture that God hates tyrants and Saddam Hussein was a tyrant. And the Scriptures make it very clear that tyrants will get what they deserve. And he got what he deserved.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Yeah. The question comes up, were there Christians in Iraq, evangelical Christians who believe exactly as we do, who were also praying that their aunts and uncles and brothers and sisters and sons and daughters fighting on the Iraqi side would come home safely, too.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Sure. I can't help but think, Rod, about that movie Concordia puts out about the Christmas Eve in the ardennes Forest in 1944, the story of the little old lady who has the cabin. And it was Christmas Eve and the Battle of the Bulge, and you had two American GIs come stumbling into her cabin and getting out of the cold. They were cut off from their units and they were lost. And right after they had come in, two German soldiers, evangelical Lutherans, came in from the same reason. They both agreed to leave their weapons outside and they celebrated Christmas Eve together. That whole idea that whose side is God on when Christians have to take up arms against fellow Christians?

[Rod Rosenbladt]

Our number is 1-800-331-1-800-331, KKLA. This is your chance to get on. We're going to be off in not too long. So if you want to talk to us tonight about this important subject, this is your chance. 1-800-331-KKA what are some biblical guidelines then for relating to our national citizenship?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

Well, I think Rod represented the Lutheran position well with the two kingdoms. I think the thing we have have to point out is we have a dual citizenship. We have a citizenship in the country of our birth and we have a citizenship by adoption, the kingdom of heaven. We have to keep the roles that those two kingdoms occupy very clearly defined in our thinking about our role in

[Rod Rosenbladt]

the city of God and the city of man. Sure, sure.

[Kim Riddlebarger]

What is my job as a citizen? To be a good citizen? What does that the scripture indicate that I am to do in that I'm to pray for my government, I'm to vote, I'm to participate in the electoral process, all those kinds of things. And yet my citizenship in heaven makes it real clear that God is not on the side of any one particular nation.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

And when we're worshiping, we're worshiping in the heavenlies, aren't we? We're exercising our heavenly citizenship. When we are hearing the word of God and partaking of the sacrament, we are in the presence of God and he is a jealous God, as one of our our callers rightly put it. Next week's show is going to be interesting. We're going to give 91 reasons why the prophecy predictors will be wrong in 91. Now why on earth would we talk about that? One reason, I think, is because hopes raised are easily dashed and they've been raised too many times and dashed too many times. People really are given wild National Enquirer predictions that don't appear in the Bible, don't they?

[Kim Riddlebarger]

We wonder why in Scripture we're told that scoffers will come in the last days and mock his return. Well, one of the reasons scoffers come is because we've made so many bloody predictions about Christ's return that haven't come true. It gives people reason to scoff.

[Rod Rosenbladt]

That's right. Then the next week is the Tower of Psychobabble. As we talk about the pop psychology invasion of the pulpit. Do you hear more about the ooey gooey touchy feely encounter group? Kind of. I'm surprised more churches don't have couches than pews. That's right. Well, don't give any ideas out there, Kim. Then finally a look at the faith teachers. Copeland Hagen, tbn the whole lot with those little gods must be crazy. Taken really from their central dogma that we are as much incarnations of God as Jesus was. Paul Kropp said, I am a little God. Critics, but gone. And we think that that is very unbiblical and it's one of those zany things that once again makes us not only heretical but in the eyes of the world look silly, just outright strange. And so we will be back next week on the White Horse Inn to talk about prophecy and the future.

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