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Why You Must Die to Live: Michael Horton and Harold Senkbeil
00:30:09
Baptism, mortification, and the hope of resurrection—Harold Senkbeil joins Michael Horton for a heartfelt discussion on how the Christian life prepares us for death. RESOURCES MENTIONED: by Harold L. Senkbeil CHECK OUT THIS MONTH’S...
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- [00:00]
Michael Horton
Weakness isn't a flaw. It's where hope begins. In A Place for Weakness, Michael Horton shows how the cross and resurrection of Christ don't just explain suffering, they overcome it. This isn't a book about cliches or quick fixes. It's about real hope for real pain. Hope that quiets guilt, silences doubt, and outlasts every storm, whether you're grieving or walking with someone else through their grief. A Place for Weakness shows how the doing, dying and rising of Christ silences the thunder of the law and gives eternal hope in the face of life's hardest questions. Grab your copy today for a donation of any amount@solamedia.org offers. That's solamedia.org offers.
- [00:48]
Mike
What does pastoral care look like on the ground amid suffering?
- [00:54]
Harold Sinkbile
I think it speaks the truth. We don't pretend that things are fine when they're not. And we have the courage to say, this hurts. I don't like this. I despise this. Very early in the morning, the day my wife died, I called my dearest friend and I said, I wish I was more fluent in cussing because I really hate death. Yeah, you know, it's a dastardly thing. And Jesus wept at the grave of Israel of his dear friend Lazarus, even though he knew he would raise him.
- [01:39]
Michael Horton
Applying the riches of the Reformation to the modern church. This is White Horse Zinn, a weekly roundtable discussion about theology and culture.
- [02:00]
Mike
Harold Sinkbile is emeritus Executive director for Spiritual Care at Doxology, the Lutheran center for spiritual care and Counsel. He's also the author of Christ and Calamity and the Care of Souls. He served in parish ministry for more than 30 years before becoming and associate professor at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And it is our pleasure to have Harold back on the program. We've had him on many times and it's great to have him on again to talk about dying to live. Hal, it is a real pleasure to have you on. We've been having this conversation for about three decades and I've learned so much from you. Appreciate your take on so many things, but especially your take on sanctification, life, death, especially your book Dying to Live, your book on pastoral care that's been so helpful to so many people already. Just really a pleasure to have you again on the White Horse Inn.
- [03:09]
Harold Sinkbile
What a joy. I'm thinking back to all those early days I recall, I think, traveling in a van with Rod Rosenblatt and to your radio studios. So it was different technology, but here we are.
- [03:26]
Mike
Yeah, exactly Let me start out with a quote, and I'm sure that you have a lot of corresponding quotes from your liturgy. This is from our section on funerals and dying. This is a prayer that is prayed by the minister at somebody's hospital bed as they're preparing to die. And let's call the person Sally, since I don't know what you know, it's n there for name. So let's just. Gracious God, look upon Sally, your child, through baptism. May she know your love now and always, the love from which nothing in life or death can ever separate us. And may she be comforted with the promise of eternal life given in the resurrection of your son, our Savior. Amen. Interesting there that baptism is mentioned specifically in the prayer. How can thinking about our baptism give us comfort when we are facing death? If we've already died and risen with Christ in baptism, how does that assure us as we think about our physical death?
- [04:42]
Harold Sinkbile
Well, St. Paul writes to the Romans and says, don't you know that those of us who were baptized, baptized into Christ, we're baptized into his death? So we're buried with Christ by baptism into death. In the same way, you should see yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God through faith in Christ Jesus. So baptism links us with Jesus, his cross, his suffering, his dying, his burial, and his resurrection. Martin Luther once said that, you know, in comparison to the death we died in baptism, the death at the end of our physical life is only a mini death in comparison to that. We've got the worst part out of the way, because when you've died with Jesus, you die to sin once for all, and you live, you. You live only to God. Now you have the whole rest of all eternity to look forward to. So that, I think, provides a springboard daily to mortification of the old Adam. And then finally it gives us a proper preparation for the time of our dying and our final breath here in this world.
- [05:58]
Mike
You mentioned mortification. A lot of Christians today talk about self help, self esteem, optimizing the Christian life, growing with God through private devotions and personal experiences, discipleship programs and so forth. Not that any of those are wrong, but not a lot of conversation in the church seems to be spent on mortification. Why do you think that is? What are we missing and not talking as much about mortification?
- [06:30]
Harold Sinkbile
Well, of course, we're all about pleasure and success, so it's not very popular to talk about. Mortification tends to be somewhat of a downer in comparison to. And most of the time we spend our energy thinking about how we can get better, how we can improve ourselves, and so forth. But the reality is the only way that we can really live is to die each day when it comes to the temptations of our sinful nature. St. Paul wrote to the Romans about this dying and rising. Says, we've been buried with Christ by our baptism into. Into death in chapter two. But then in chapter three. So since you've been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above. And the way you do this is to realize that your real life is now hidden with Christ. But the life that I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. And that's not a matter of just thinking. You're kind of a mind game, but rather an actual concrete turning away from that which drags us down constantly, which separates us from God. To be honest before God, to speak the truth before God, contrition and repentance is the way by which our old Adam is drowned and dies. And then the new man that we are in Jesus, by virtue of our baptism and faith in him, emerges and arises for me.
- [08:09]
Mike
To live is Christ.
- [08:10]
Harold Sinkbile
Exactly. And to die is gain. So, you know, that's a very healthy way to think of death. Nobody wants to speak about death these days. But the reality is our God is one who, in order for us to live, he first puts us to death so that we can be raised with Him.
- [08:31]
Mike
We like to talk about being raised with him, but we don't like to talk about dying with Him.
- [08:37]
Harold Sinkbile
But to know the power of his resurrection, we also need to know the fellowship of his sufferings. That's the scriptural view.
- [08:46]
Mike
Do you think one of the reasons that we don't like to talk about mortification is because we don't like to talk about death and dying to ourselves. And not just our physical death, but this constant spiritual struggle, this battle within that kind of simultaneously occurs with the decaying of our body. We're growing more and more into Christ. Our inner self is being renewed day by day. But that's not true of our bodies. Our bodies are decaying.
- [09:25]
Harold Sinkbile
Tell me about it. Just look in the mirror any day, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. True. So the decline that happens with maturity is. One of my friends likes to talk about it. She doesn't like to talk about aging, but the fact is we're being eroded away, fading away day by day. But inwardly we're being renewed because of our life in Christ Jesus. So you know that that life is outside of me. I think that's the inside out. Life, I think is. Is the real way to make progress in the Christian life. We talk about sanctification and my righteousness is alien to me. It's in Christ Jesus. And also my holiness is alien to me. I live yet not I, but Christ lives in me. So all that I am in myself is sin and death. But in Christ I am light and life. And so I want to get out of myself and more into him. So that's where prayer, meditation and self examination according to God's law shows me my sin so that I can rightly speak the truth before God and then hear his word of absolution and grace in the cross.
- [10:46]
Mike
Do you think there's a correlation between being able to talk. We can talk about our sin honestly. We can should. We can talk about our sin honestly and our depravity and so forth. People think, oh, that's just a downer. But we can talk about it so frankly and so honestly because we are forgiven. And similarly, we can talk about death in all of its gruesomeness because we know how the story turns out.
- [11:24]
Harold Sinkbile
Exactly. And it's the cross of Christ that gives us the confidence to do that. Because he was put to death for our offenses and raised again for our justification. We can look unflinchingly at death itself. We can stand graveside and say, I know that my Redeemer lives on the latter day he will stand upon the earth and in this flesh with my eyes I will see him. So that's counterintuitive and frankly irrational. But that's exactly the way it is when you follow Jesus, he says, you want to come after me. Anyone wants him after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. And to live with him, we need to die with him. And the more we do that, the more life we have. That's the paradox.
- [12:15]
Mike
And that life is called vivification, technically. So the two parts of sanctification, mortification and vivification, can you talk about that? Explain that side of it.
- [12:27]
Harold Sinkbile
Well, as I said before, we share in his holiness. Scripture says it means that we need to be honest about the defilement and the contamination of the sin that lies within our sinful self. And to speak the truth regarding those good things we have not done and the bad things that we have done. That's called contrition. Repentance means turning around. And it's interesting, by the way, Mike, that the very first words when Jesus began preaching was repent, because the kingdom of God is at hand. I like to think of that word not as a downer, but as a word of gracious renewal because it offers hope to us. If we continue in the direction that we are by nature, according to our fallen nature, it leads only to death. But to turn around from that and to find our life in Jesus, then we have life. So turning away from sin and turning to Christ is repentance. And that means self denial, mortification of the flesh. But then the vivification, finding our life in Jesus day by day because he loved me and gave himself for me. And by the way that word he always addresses me from the outside in. I think we like to think about in our day of expressive individualism, about self improvement. And we think that the solution to our problems all is within us. So if we try a little bit harder, maybe get in the right mindset, meditate and get out of our our own life of cataclysm and chaos, then maybe we'll have a better life. But the reality is we need to hear the word of the Gospel and to place our confidence in that objective word. The more objective the basis of our salvation and our sanctification, the more subjective the results will be.
- [14:30]
Mike
I go deeper into myself and I find a greater sinner. I climb out of myself or I'm drawn out of myself and cling to Christ and I have life and hope and salvation. I love the way you connect repentance and faith. You don't separate them, they're not the same thing, but you connect them so that it's not just repentance. Hey, stop that. It's turn around because there's something glorious over here behind you.
- [15:02]
Harold Sinkbile
Jesus in that preaching is preaching both law and gospel, judgment and grace. Repent. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. It means the kingdom has arrived in him. A new way of living. God's whole new dimension of life is found in the flesh and blood of Jesus. So now there is hope, there is confidence. You don't have to continue in the way that leads to death. And he opens up the gates of salvation to all the trusted.
- [15:32]
Mike
Such good news.
- [15:39]
Michael Horton
Weakness isn't a flaw. It's where hope begins. In a place for weakness, Michael Horton shows how the cross and resurrection of Christ don't just explain suffering, they overcome it. This isn't a book about cliches or quick fixes. It's about real hope for real pain. Hope that quiets guilt, silences doubt and outlasts every storm, whether you're grieving or walking with someone else through their grief. A place for Weakness shows how the doing, dying and rising of Christ silences the thunder of the law and gives eternal hope in the face of life's hardest questions. Grab your copy today for a donation of any amount@solarmedia.org offers. That's solamedia.org offers.
- [16:33]
Mike
How can pastors prepare their parishioners to think about death through forgiveness and vivification?
- [16:41]
Harold Sinkbile
I think the reality is that we need to focus not on the misery of death, but the confidence that we have in the face of death. I had the experience about three years ago of walking with my wife through her final illness and her death. She died in this very room, actually, after 14 months of being confined to bed and home hospice care. A couple of years before that, I was privileged to draft a little devotional book called Christ and Calamity. And there I was, simply portraying what scripture says about the reality of suffering, the reality of misery. At the time, I didn't realize that she was nearing her end, but it turned out that way. And so during her final illness, she asked me to read a chapter every day from that book. And frequently when I would finish that, she'd say, are you sure you didn't write that for me? And I said, well, I didn't consciously do that. The reality is, when we are honest about what's going on around us, when we face suffering and misery and illness and tragedy, chaos, calamity, and, yes, even physical death with honesty, then we can find hope in the midst of that, not by escaping from it, but by realizing that the cross of Jesus has already led the way. We're following Him. And as the psalmist says, I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me. You lead me through the valley of the shadow of death to know where the cross of Jesus leads the way. That cross, which is not just a sign of death, is also a sign of life, because there's life to be found in the One who laid down his life for me and then rose again for my justification.
- [18:43]
Mike
It reminds me of Paul saying that he rejoices even in his suffering, not as a kind of stoic or, you know, because the suffering itself is good, but it reminds him that he bears the marks of Christ, that if we have suffered with him, we'll reign with him. If I'm suffering with Christ, I'm guaranteed to reign with him.
- [19:11]
Harold Sinkbile
Exactly. That very suffering is a mark of his love. Paradoxically, it's a sign that we belong to Him. It's. I think Luther once said that whoever wants to follow Jesus must fly his colors. The colors of the cross. This is the emblem of our life. We're not turn away or flinched in the face of this, but nor are we morbidly seeking to suffer. But rather we find our confidence day by day, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
- [19:45]
Mike
Having gone through some of the most intense suffering of my life in the last six or eight years, 1 Corinthians 15 has really taken on a new light for me, and I've seen things there that I never saw before. And I'd love to get your take on this because it goes right along with a lot of things you've said. I used to focus almost entirely on the first half of the chapter and the argument. It's the argument, it's apologetics, it's the resurrection argument. Jesus has been raised. If he hasn't been raised bodily, then you're still in your sins and so forth. But the second half of the argument made a deeper impression than it ever had before, that actually we have to die. It's not just that we do die or that death is a curse, of course it's the result of a curse, but Christians don't die under that curse. But, but once you take the curse away, and it's been assumed by Christ, death becomes a part of salvation. Because until it tells me, this body, this body which is full of corruption, has to go deep into the ground, the whole thing has to die. If there's a little bit of it left living, then it's corrupt, and I'm going to carry that with me into eternity. I want every atom dead. I want every cancer cell dead. I want every sin I've done in the body dead. I want it all dead so that a completely new creation, the same body, he emphasizes, the same body, but in a completely different state of existence, it all has to die so that it can all be made alive. Is that your impression too of the second half of his argument?
- [21:48]
Harold Sinkbile
Very much so. In fact, I think that's the reason the first part of the chapter is there, so we can get to the good stuff, namely the reality of what it means to actually die and be raised again. So the reality, the fact of his physical resurrection from the grave is the root of our confidence in him and the solid basis of our day to day life. But ultimately it finds its fruition when the end comes, when all that is contaminated by sin, this entire polluted creation is made new. As he says in Revelation, behold, I'm making all things new. So whatever is going to be raised must first be put to death. So if a seed falls to the ground, it must first decay and appear to be completely demolished. And then the new life springs forth. And that's the way it is. Not just on the day of our physical death, but also, spiritually speaking, we must put to death whatever is earthly in us so that again, that mortification, vivification theme is carried out. So in kind of a many way, day by day, and there is a death and resurrection, spiritually speaking. And then ultimately, on the day we breathe our last, this physical body in which God gave me well, fall into decay and dust of death. But then to be raised again in newness of life, to be like his own glorious body. So that death and resurrection theme is all throughout the scripture. God puts to death and then he raises again.
- [23:46]
Mike
Holy Saturday has to be more important than we make it right, because I think so Jesus too, had a mortal body. He had to go into the grave and leave everything of the old creation behind in order to be the head of the new creation.
- [24:08]
Harold Sinkbile
Holy Saturday is sacred ground. That's really where we live day by day. We're kind of in between the old world and the new, the old life.
- [24:18]
Mike
And the new, between Good Friday and Easter.
- [24:20]
Harold Sinkbile
And, you know, that's not to be a. That's not a downer. That actually is. Brings hope and confidence as we. We do not sorrow or grieve as those who have no hope. In the midst of. Of life, we are in death, but also in the midst of death, we are in life.
- [24:37]
Mike
How can pastors talk about eschatology and the resurrection without sounding trite and dismissive of current suffering? Like, okay, is this the. This is the speech you have to give me because this is what you get paid for. What is pastoral care look like on the ground amid suffering?
- [24:59]
Harold Sinkbile
I think it speaks the truth. We don't pretend that things are fine when they're not. And we have the courage to say, this hurts. I don't like this. I despise this very early in the morning that the day my wife died, I called my dearest friend and I said, I wish I was more fluent in cussing because I really hate death. Yeah, you know, it's. It's a dastardly thing. And, and you know, Jesus wept at the grave of this. Of his dear friend Lazarus, even though he knew he would raise him. Yeah.
- [25:33]
Mike
And the, and the verb there is wailing.
- [25:36]
Harold Sinkbile
There is something, you know, cosmically tragic and wrong about death. It was never, you know, it wasn't the way God planned it in the first place. Yeah, but already there in Eden, he spoke the promise of resurrection. I said, you know, the seed of the woman will ultimately crush the head of Satan. So there was promise already there, and it's fulfilled. So you find in Revelation the new paradise that God intended forever, where life is all made new. In fact, the whole cosmos is made new in Christ. And so that is a glorious reality. It's not the sweet by and by. It's not, you know. So I don't think we want to be trite as pastors. We say, well, they're there. It's all going to be better in the end. But rather right now, in the midst of this suffering, in the midst of this misery, there is hope because you are not suffering meaninglessly. This is a sign of God's ownership on you. As hard as it is to bear, Christ sanctifies that suffering because he's touched all misery ahead of you. Luther once wrote this to his Prince Elector, Frederick the Wise, who had this huge collection of relics as a medieval Christian. So he was giving pastoral care to Frederick in the midst of his suffering. He says, if you think so much, so highly of these little bits of pieces of supposedly the true cross, or a little scrap of fabric from one of the saints, how much more once you kiss and treasure your own misery and the sufferings of your flesh, because Jesus has embraced that suffering with his own. He's touched your suffering with his own flesh. So you're close to him. But in the midst of this distress, if you find your hope in him, listen to his word says, come unto me all your labor and heavy laden, I will give you rest. My yoke is easy, My burden is light. Not because it's easy to bear, but because he has borne it ahead of us. So I like to point people to Jesus, to his suffering and his misery, that he knows he's tempted, just as you are, yet without sin. And he's emerged the victor. He's come out victorious in the end, and you will too.
- [28:03]
Mike
Well, that's a great place to conclude, Hal. I'd love to have you at my bedside or preaching my funeral, but more at my bedside before I die, giving me comfort in life and in death. And I know that a lot of people will be blessed by hearing your pastoral counsel on this important. I mean, this is what we're really. Our reason we, you and I, have a job, is to prepare people for death, right?
- [28:33]
Harold Sinkbile
Oh, that's what it's all about. Yeah. That's for. It's. It's not. Not for self fulfillment or self advancement or self promotion. But it's for me to live as Christ, to die is gain, as I said earlier. So yeah, that. That book that you and I reflected on Pranav for more than three decades, Dying to live is really these very themes. You know, suffering and misery is not pleasant, but it is an avenue and an opening to life if we see it properly through the grace of Christ Jesus by his in his cross, suffering and resurrection.
- [29:09]
Mike
Thanks, Hal. Appreciate it.
- [29:11]
Harold Sinkbile
My pleasure.
- [29:19]
Michael Horton
Weakness isn't a flaw. It's where hope begins. In A Place for Weakness, Michael Horton shows how the cross and resurrection of Christ don't just explain suffering, they overcome it. This isn't a book about cliches or quick fixes. It's about real hope for real pain. Hope that quiets guilt, silences doubt and outlasts every storm. Whether you're grieving or walking with someone else through their grief. A Place for Weakness shows how the doing, dying and rising of Christ silences the thunder of the law and gives eternal hope in the face of life's hardest questions. Grab your copy today for a donation of any amount@solamedia.org offers. That's solamedia.org offers.