Podcast
Work For Humans
Hosted by Dart Lindsley · EN
Too often business leaders are forced to choose between the needs of their company and the needs of their employees. It’s a lose/lose scenario leaving managers burned out and workers seeking other opportunities. At Work for Humans, we believe work can be designed differently. When you design work like products people love, your company wins. Work becomes irresistible, employees passionately buy into their roles every day, and your company takes measurable strides towards your vision.
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Episodes
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The Master Servant Doctrine: How Feudal Law Still Shapes Modern Work | Elizabeth Tippett
Nov 401:02:03Summary readyModern work is haunted by an idea that began in feudal Europe. The Master Servant Doctrine gave employers the right to command and control workers while imposing a duty to provide for them. That ancient logic still shapes the modern workplace — from “at-will” employment and HR policies designed to protect companies, to benefits that bind people to their jobs. In this episode, Dart and Elizabeth explore how feudal ideas of control and obligation still structure employment today, and what it would take to build something better.Elizabeth Tippett teaches employment law and legal ethics at the University of Oregon School of Law. She is the author of The Master Servant Doctrine, and her research examines how historical legal frameworks continue to influence the modern workplace.In this episode, Dart and Elizabeth discuss:- How feudal law still shapes modern work- The three pillars of the Master Servant Doctrine- Why “at-will” employment persists in the U.S.- How HR became a modern tool of control- Why employee benefits reinforce dependency- The moral legacy of servitude in labor law- How law and culture preserve inequality at work- What a modern social contract for labor might look like- And other topics…Elizabeth Tippett is Professor and James O. and Alfred T. Goodwin Senior Fellow at the University of Oregon School of Law. She teaches courses on employment law, torts, negotiation, and dispute resolution, and her research examines how historical legal doctrines continue to shape modern employment practices. She is the author of The Master Servant Doctrine: How Old Legal Rules Haunt the Modern Workplace, forthcoming from Stanford University Press in 2025.Resources Mentioned:The Master–Servant Doctrine: How Old Legal Rules Haunt the Modern Workplace, by Elizabeth Tippett: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Servant-Doctrine-Legal-Modern-Workplace/dp/0520382323Connect with Elizabeth:Website: https://liztippett.com Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryDesigning Time: The Future of Experience Design | Dave Norton
Oct 2801:04:28Summary readyMost organizations think about the design of work in terms of products, services, or customer journeys. But Dave Norton has spent his career arguing that experience design goes much deeper. It is about shaping how people spend their time and, in some cases, their lives. In this episode, Dart talks to Dave about how experience design has evolved, why context matters more than personality, and how AI may finally make transformational design scalable.Dave Norton is the founder of Stone Mantel, an insights consultancy focused on helping companies create meaningful experiences for their customers and employees. A pioneer in experience strategy, he helps organizations across industries rethink the meaning of time, transformation, and context in design.In this episode, Dart and Dave discuss:- The evolution of experience design- Why context matters more than customer psychology- How to design time that is well saved, well spent, and well invested- Why transformation requires discomfort- The power of modes and modularity in designing for focus- How to design whole offerings that get the “whole job” done- Why AI could help scale transformational design- And other topics…Dave Norton is the founder of Stone Mantel, the experience strategy firm built on the belief that meaningful work is less about what you sell and more about how people spend their time. He began working with Joe Pine, co-author of The Experience Economy, in the early 2000s and in 2005 launched Stone Mantel to help organizations design experiences that are “time well spent.” Over the years, he has guided clients across industries, including healthcare, banking, and hospitality, shifting the focus from features to whole offerings and from channels to moments.Resources Mentioned:Stone Mantle: https://www.stonemantel.co/ The Experience Strategist (Substack): https://theexperiencestrategist.substack.com/ The Experience Economy, by B. Joseph Pine II and James H. Gilmore: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Economy-Competing-Customers-Service/dp/1422161978Connect with Dave:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenortonphd/ Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryDesigning AI Tools That Think With You | Dmitri Glazkov
Oct 2101:08:23Summary readyThe tools we use shape how we work, what we see, and how we think. Dmitri Glazkov, Strategy Lead at Google Labs, initiated Breadboard and helped launch Opal—tools that let people connect prompts into systems that think together like Tinkertoys for the mind. His passion is building technology that makes creativity easier and more human. In this episode, Dart and Dmitri explore how AI can capture tacit knowledge, why strategy gets embedded in culture, and how to design “tiny brains” that think with us, not for us.Dmitri Glazkov is Strategy Lead at Google Labs and the initiator of Breadboard, the open-source foundation for Google’s Opal project. He is a longtime Google engineer and an early contributor to Chrome and Web Components.In this episode, Dart and Dmitri discuss:- How AI tools reshape the experience of work- Why Breadboard and Opal make creativity easier- How AI can help capture and share tacit knowledge- The difference between dandelion and elephant growth strategies- How strategy becomes embodied in company culture- What “lensical thinking” means and how to use it- Why Dmitri calls Opal a cognitive WYSIWYG- How chains of prompts can act as “tiny brains”- And other topics…Dmitri Glazkov is the Strategy Lead at Google Labs and the initiator of Breadboard, the open-source project that underpins Google’s Opal tool for creative AI experimentation. Over nearly two decades at Google, Dmitri has shaped how people interact with technology—from helping build Chrome and pioneering Web Components to exploring how artificial intelligence can amplify human thought. His work focuses on designing systems that think with us, not for us, making creativity more accessible to everyone. Resources Mentioned:Opal: https://opal.withgoogle.comDmitri’s Blog: https://glazkov.comDart and Dmitri’s article, “The Unvarying Infrastructure of Variation”: https://read.fluxcollective.org/p/69Connect with Dmitri:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dglazkov Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryVitsœ: Building a Company That Lasts by Breaking the Rules | Mark Adams
Oct 1401:12:54Summary readyMost companies chase growth by selling more things to more people, faster. Mark Adams has spent nearly 40 years proving there is another way. As Director of Vitsœ, he runs the company with one mission: to help people live better with less that lasts longer. In this episode, Dart talks to Mark about why Vitsœ resists conventional business rules, how it builds longevity and trust into everything it makes, and what it means to design a company that could outlive its founders.Mark Adams has led Vitsœ, the British furniture company known for its long partnership with Dieter Rams, since 1985. He has shaped it into a quiet revolution against planned obsolescence and short-term thinking. Rejecting titles, hierarchies, and corporate clichés, he has built a company where design, culture, and ethics operate as one system, showing that a business guided by principles rather than profit can thrive for generations.In this episode, Dart and Mark discuss:- Why Vitsœ rejects CEOs, boards, and traditional hierarchies- How longevity gets built into culture- Why Vitsœ recruits for character before skill- Why Vitsœ’s customers keep coming back- Raising over £8 million directly from customers- What “love” in customer emails really means- How Dieter Rams’ design philosophy guides Vitsœ’s decisions- Why design is really about systems, not things- What it takes to build a company designed to last- And other topics…Mark Adams is the Director of Vitsœ, the British design company best known for its long partnership with Dieter Rams and its modular furniture that grows with people’s lives. After encountering the 606 shelving system in 1985, Mark established Vitsœ UK in 1986 to bring Rams’s designs to a wider audience. He later succeeded Niels Vitsœ as Managing Director in 1993 and has led the company ever since with a quiet but radical vision: to build a business grounded in longevity, sufficiency, and trust. Mark believes companies should exist to help people live better with less, and he has spent nearly four decades proving that principle through every part of Vitsœ’s work, from design to manufacturing to culture.Resources Mentioned:Vitsœ: https://www.vitsoe.com/usGood to Great, by Jim Collins: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0066620996Built to Last, by Jim Collins and Jerry I. Porras: https://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-Essentials/dp/0060516402Connect with Mark:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markekadams/ Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryAI as Dramaturg: What It Means to Create Art with a Machine | Matthew Gasda and Isobel McCrum
Oct 701:02:55Summary readyWhen playwright Matthew Gasda credited ChatGPT and Claude in the program for his play Doomers, it sparked a debate about whether machines belong in the creative process. The play wasn’t written by AI. It used AI as a dramaturg, a kind of philosophical collaborator, and that simple credit forced audiences to confront what it means to create alongside a machine. In this episode, Dart talks to Matt and Isobel about AI as dramaturg, the creative tension between human and machine, and how the source of a work might matter as much as the work itself.Matthew Gasda is known for reinventing New York theater with intimate, independent productions that challenge how art is made and who it’s for. Microsoft language scientist and producer Isobel McCrum joined him after seeing Doomers, bringing her fascination with the intersection of language, technology, and creativity. In this episode, Dart, Matt and Isobel discuss:- When an audience debate exposed our unease with AI in art- The origin of Doomers and its link to Sam Altman’s firing- AI as a dramaturg, not a co-author- How Isobel trained a model on Matt’s plays to study imitation- What happens when a playwright prompts a machine to think- Why AI-generated writing often feels like parody- How Borges’ Pierre Menard changes how we see authorship- Can AI art still carry human depth?- What does it mean for art to be both human and synthetic?- And other topics…Matthew Gasda is a playwright, novelist, and founder of the Brooklyn Center for Theater Research. He’s known for reinventing New York theater with intimate, independent productions that exist outside traditional institutions. His plays, including Dimes Square, The Sleepers, and Doomers, explore modern culture through realism, philosophy, and personal reflection. With Doomers, he captured the human drama behind Sam Altman’s near firing from OpenAI, using theater to question creativity, technology, and what it means to be human.Isobel McCrum is a language scientist and content designer at Microsoft, where she works on the language experience for AI tools like Copilot in Word. With a background in linguistics and storytelling, she focuses on making AI systems more precise, inclusive, and human-centered. Isobel also collaborates on creative projects that investigate the intersection of art, language, and machine intelligence, including Doomers, which she produced for its London release.Resources Mentioned:Doomers: https://www.doomerslondon.com/Brooklyn Center for Theater Research: https://brooklyncenterfortheatreresearch.com/Connect with Matt and Isobel:Matthew’s Substack: https://substack.com/@matthewgasdaIsobel’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isobel-mccrum/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryStories Over Surveys: Unlocking Human Truths About Work and Life | James Warren
Sep 3001:11:56Summary readySurveys and numbers can capture averages, but they can’t reveal the raw humanity of lived experience. Stories can. Stories connect us, capture nuance and emotion, and uncover the “why” behind our choices in ways numbers never will. In this episode, Dart and James Warren talk about why stories reveal truths surveys miss, how personal narratives can be transformed into meaningful change, and how organizations can flip the script to see their people more fully.James Warren founded Share More Stories in 2014 on the belief that everyone’s stories matter — that by listening to them, organizations can do better and be better. Today, the company combines human expression with digital tools like its SEEQ Platform to help leaders uncover deep human insights and turn them into better decisions, stronger relationships, and sustainable growth.In this episode, Dart and James discuss:- Why stories reveal truths surveys miss- How prompts unlock surprising vulnerability- Turning personal narratives into organizational change- The role of vulnerability in leadership- Why being heard is often the most powerful outcome- What it means to flip the script- Why your company is inside your people- And other topics…James Warren is the Founder and CEO of Share More Stories, a human experience insights company powered by the SEEQ Platform. He leads work that blends storytelling, AI, and research to uncover emotional drivers in both employee and customer experiences. Over the last decade, he’s built SEEQ into a platform that goes beyond surveys to surface the “why” behind experience. A researcher, strategist, writer, and facilitator, he helps companies listen, reflect, and act on human truths.Resources Mentioned:Share More Stories: https://sharemorestories.com/SEEQ Platform: sharemorestories.com/seeqRegister to attend the UWEBC Conference, where Dart keynotes the HR track alongside Ethan Mollick and Nancy Giordano – September 30, University of Wisconsin: https://uwebc.wisc.edu/conference/registration/ Connect with James:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-warren-seeq/ Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryArchitects of Transformation: Unlocking the Real Value of People | Michael Smith
Sep 2301:12:48Summary readyLeaders today are under pressure from every direction: an unpredictable economy, the rise of AI, and the constant demand for transformation while keeping the business running. Few people see those challenges more clearly than Michael Smith. He argues that leaders make the greatest impact when they act as architects of transformation rather than playing defense. In this episode, Mike and Dart discuss what happens when HR is seen only as a cost and how CEOs and CFOs can unlock the real value of the people in their organizations. They also explore the future of HR and why doing well and doing good go together.As CEO of Randstad Enterprise, a division of one of the world’s largest HR services companies, Mike has spent more than 20 years leading businesses across four continents. That vantage point gives him a rare perspective on how people, technology, and transformation shape the future of work.In this episode, Dart and Jim discuss:- Why HR leaders have the most impact as architects of transformation- What happens when people are treated as a cost instead of the engine of growth- How CEOs and CFOs can unlock the real value of talent- The future of HR in a world shaped by AI and constant change- Why companies are hiring and laying off at the same time- How AI is reshaping recruiting and freeing HR for higher-value work- The risk of excluding talent through rigid hiring processes- Why HR must become data visionaries to stay at the table- The ethical challenges of leading with AI- And other topics…Michael Smith is Chief Executive of Randstad Enterprise and part of Randstad’s global leadership team. Over two decades with the company, he has led businesses across the US, Europe, and Asia, including CEO roles at Randstad UK and Randstad Sourceright EMEA. Today, he oversees Randstad’s global talent solutions portfolio — from recruitment outsourcing and managed services to career transition, coaching, and advisory. His work puts him at the center of how the world’s largest organizations adapt to change, balance people and technology, and unlock the real value of talent.Resources Mentioned:Randstad Enterprise: https://www.randstad.comGet discounted tickets to the Responsive Conference, featuring past Work for Humans guests Bree Groff and Simone Stolzoff – September 17–18, Oakland, CA. Use code “11fold”: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets Register to attend the UWEBC Conference, where Dart keynotes the HR track alongside Ethan Mollick and Nancy Giordano – September 30, University of Wisconsin: https://uwebc.wisc.edu/conference/registration/ Connect with Mike:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeljohnsmith/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryLeadership Beyond the Individual: Relation in the Space Between Us | Jim Ferrell
Sep 1601:01:12Summary readyOne line in Martin Buber’s I and Thou stopped Jim Ferrell in his tracks. It made him realize that leadership isn’t inside the individual — it lives in the space between us. That insight became his new book, You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership. In it, Jim argues that progress doesn’t come from sameness, but from uniting across difference. In this episode, Jim and Dart discuss the four laws of relation, why relation is not the same as relationships, and how leaders can shift attention from individuals to the “between.”Jim Ferrell is a leadership consultant, founder of Withiii Leadership, and bestselling author of several leadership classics. He has spent nearly 30 years working with leaders and organizations around the world.In this episode, Dart and Jim discuss:- Relation vs. relationships- The four laws of relation- Why progress depends on difference- How individualistic leadership fails- What happens when we ignore the “between”- Levels of relation: division to compounding- Practices that move leaders toward integration- How relation reshapes how we see ourselves and others- And other topics…Jim Ferrell is the founder of Withiii Leadership and author of You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership. Prior to Withiii, he co-founded and led the Arbinger Institute, where he authored international bestsellers including Leadership and Self-Deception and The Anatomy of Peace. His work on leadership, culture change, and conflict resolution has shaped organizations from Apple, Google, and Nike to the White House and U.S. Treasury. A graduate of Yale Law School, Jim has also served as an adjunct professor on law and leadership at Brigham Young University. He is recognized as one of the most influential voices in relational leadership and organizational change.Resources Mentioned:You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership, by Jim Ferrell: https://www.amazon.com/You-We-Relational-Rethinking-Leadership/dp/1637747330I and Thou, by Martin Buber: https://www.amazon.com/I-Thou-Martin-Buber/dp/1578989973Withiii Leadership: https://www.withiii.com/Get discounted tickets to the Responsive Conference, featuring past Work for Humans guests Bree Groff and Simone Stolzoff – September 17–18, Oakland, CA. Use code “11fold”: https://www.responsiveconference.com/ticketsRegister to attend the UWEBC Conference, where Dart keynotes the HR track alongside Ethan Mollick and Nancy Giordano – September 30, University of Wisconsin: https://uwebc.wisc.edu/conference/registration/Connect with Jim:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslferrell/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryWork Should Be Fun, Not Just Productive | Bree Groff
Aug 5, 202501:07:19Summary readyBree Groff’s new book, Today Was Fun, pushes the reset button on expectations about work. There is no reason work can’t be fun. About half of the things that make it un-fun are self-inflicted—we can just stop doing them. Take off the serious-people costume. Stop all performative work. Take a nap that is for you, not just to recharge for more work. Stop suppressing emotions. Have fun with work friends, and keep work in its place—a good part of life, but not your whole life.Bree Groff is a former partner at SYPartners and a transformation expert who helps organizations lead through change. With a background in systems thinking and behavioral science, she works at the intersection of strategy, leadership, and culture.In this episode, Bree and Dart discuss:- Why most transformation efforts fail- The role of rituals in driving behavior change- What leaders often get wrong about resistance- Why relationships matter more than strategy- How to build “cozy teams” and why that matters- Designing systems that reinforce cultural shifts- The emotional and ethical case for fun at work- Why professionalism often kills creativity- How to know if it’s time to leave your job- What it means to “shoot straight with love”- What Bree means by putting “laughing” on your KPIs- And other topics…Bree Groff is a transformation expert who helps leaders and organizations navigate complex change. A partner at SYPartners, she works at the intersection of strategy, culture, and human behavior, bringing together systems thinking, design, and behavioral science to shape workplaces that actually work for people. She’s also the author of Today Was Fun, a book that rethinks our relationship with work and makes the case for putting joy and humanity at the center of it. Bree is a frequent speaker on the future of work and teaches graduate courses on innovation and organizational change at Northwestern University.Resources Mentioned:Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously), by Bree Groff: https://www.amazon.com/Today-Was-Fun-About-Seriously/dp/1774585596 Connect with Bree:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bree-groff/ Website: https://www.breegroff.com/home Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
SummaryThe System Is the Problem: Rethinking Business at the Systems Level | Sandra Waddock
Jul 29, 202501:03:18Summary readySandra Waddock has spent decades exploring the systems beneath the systems, asking questions about purpose, story, and the deeper operating logic of business. Sandra argues that the current model focused on growth, control, and short-term profit is no longer serving people or the planet. Instead of fixing surface-level symptoms, she invites us to reimagine the foundational assumptions business is built on. In this episode, Dart and Sandra talk about the myths that drive our current system, the limits of control, and the power of new narratives. They explore leadership as sensemaking, how small actions can shift big systems, and what it means to build organizations that support life, not just profit.Sandra Waddock is a professor at Boston College and a leading voice on systems change, corporate responsibility, and sustainable business. She’s the author of Catalyzing Transformation and has earned multiple lifetime achievement awards for her work.In this episode, Dart and Sandra discuss:- Why business needs a new operating system- The myths that hold outdated systems in place- How to shift from control to connection- Leadership as sense-making- Why small wins matter more than we think- The role of moral imagination in business- Designing for flourishing, not just growth- And more…Sandra Waddock is the Galligan Chair of Strategy, Carroll School Scholar of Corporate Responsibility, and Professor of Management at Boston College’s Carroll School of Management. A globally recognized expert in systems transformation, corporate responsibility, and sustainable enterprise, her work brings together systems thinking, narrative change, and human development to explore new models for business. She has received multiple lifetime achievement awards, including honors from the Principles for Responsible Management Education (PRME), Humboldt University, and the Humanistic Management Network. Sandra’s latest book, Catalyzing Transformation, offers a practical framework for driving large-scale systems change. Resources Mentioned:Sandra’s Book, Catalyzing Transformation: Making System Change Happen: https://www.amazon.com/Catalyzing-Transformation-Making-System-Change/dp/1637425082Connect with Sandra:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandra-waddock/Profile: https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/carroll-school/faculty-research/faculty-directory/sandra-waddock.html Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
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