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- [00:00]
Podcast Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Sophia Bush
Guaranteed Human choices.
- [00:05]
Plan B / Ad Voice
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- [00:29]
Sophia Bush
Get it.
- [00:30]
Plan B / Ad Voice
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- [00:38]
Sophia Bush
Pull up a chair to at the Table the Food Allergy Podcast. Each episode they explore how food allergies shape the way we travel, date, celebrate and connect. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis Listen to At the Table, the Food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow at the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.
- [01:04]
Martha Stewart
I'm Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. When you want to make your best, it's got to be McCormick. From everyday meals to hosting dinner parties, turn to McCormick. Their convenient, versatile flavors elevate every dish. McCormick has been and is an essential in the kitchen. Now they have a new line of signature seasonings crafted by flavor experts with everyday favorites like garlic and olive oil, globally inspired ones like chimichurri and more. McCormick's signature seasonings make it easier to add bold flavors that make each bite of your meal more delicious. Try the Chimichurri blend that elevates grilled meats. Explore the full array of blends and find your favorite@mccormick.com
- [01:46]
Cal Penn
hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:15]
Sophia Bush
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. Yes, friends, it may be August, but pride is never over in my world. And I think celebrating joy and love and our community is more important now than ever. And there's no one better to do that with than my friend Kelly Robinson, who is the president of the Human Rights Campaign. Over the last year and a half, we have all been reminded in so many ways that progress isn't permanent, that politics requires vigilance and resilience because our rights can be rolled back and our protections can disappear and hard won victories might have to be won all over again. And I gotta be honest with you, whip smarties, sometimes that feels like a real bummer to me. And then I spend time with Kelly and I'm reminded that there is joy and love and, and love in action, really, in showing up for your community. She serves as the president of the Human Rights Campaign, which is the nation' largest LGBTQ civil rights organization. And there, Kelly is leading one of the defining social and political movements of our time. Because this is a fight for equality. And whether or not you're a member of the community or an ally, I am telling you, this fight and the outcome of it is also your fight. Kelly leads us by drawing on years of experience as an organizer and an advocate. And she manages to bring her urgency and her optimism into these conversations, whether they're about democracy, visibility, building coalitions, or just the power of showing up. And I'm going to brag about her because she's, you know, a history maker. She's not only the first black queer woman to lead the hrc, she's also a mom of two, making the stakes of this fight deeply personal. Kelly has this really magical way of being. She's the kind of person in a room that everyone gravitates towards. And I think it's because she's so unwavering in her beliefs that everyone deserves love and safety. She believes in the power of visibility and she has such a clear understanding of what history teaches us about protecting our hard won rights. And she knows that because of our story, but also her family's story, which you'll hear about today. Kelly's one of the people who reminds me that hope isn't enough on its own, but when matched with action, magic can happen. So let's get a big dose of hope and perhaps a few tips on what to do next next from the inimitable Kelly Robinson. There are so many things I want to talk to you about and ask you about and also tell people about because like, we have all this, you know, we got the secret sauce because we have the board, but before we get into 2026 and you know, our, our ever advancing march toward freedom and equity and all the things, I want to go back because people who get to see you, be around you, who watch you know, your talks go viral like they know Kelly Robinson. I want to know Kelly as a little kid, you know, and especially because you're a mom. I always think this is a fun one. If you got to, you know, bend space, time, and we walked onto the playground and. And Little Kelly at 8 or 9 years old was there, and you got to talk to her. Do you think she would see herself in you? Would you see yourself?
- [06:23]
Kelly Robinson
That's such a good question. I mean, I feel like I'm the same person that I was when I was born, but when I was a kid, I was painfully shy. I mean, painfully shy. Yes. I remember my mom used to say that we would go into stores, I could talk pretty early, so talking a little bit before I was one year old, and I'd be, you know, in the little pram or the stroller, and I'd say, pick me up. Pick me up, Mommy. Like, I do not want to be around these people. But that's the one thing that's really changed for me that I think I used to be, for some reason, so shy and just afraid of crowds, and now, like, I love people. And I think it's partly because I realized that, like, other folks aren't necessarily something that we should be afraid of. It's really an opportunity. An opportunity to find somebody that you might experience something with in life, an opportunity to meet somebody who might change your perspective. And so that's the biggest thing that's changed in me. I'm still that little, like, you know, little girl that's still looking for mommy to pick her up sometimes.
- [07:28]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, well, you know me. I'm always like, I just want to hug, so probably same. Do you have great memories of Iowa? What was your. What was the sort of picture of your family?
- [07:41]
Kelly Robinson
Yeah, so my. My family story is that we were the first free black family in a little town called Muscatine, Iowa. And I remember growing up, I used to hear the story of my family all the time, of how we were enslaved people in Louisiana and Mississippi who made our way north to Iowa, one of the first states to rebuke the Fugitive Slave act and not send slaves who had made their way to freedom back down south, and what it meant for, you know, members of my family to literally hear the stories of our ancestors who were born into slavery, of having the documentation of knowing the importance of, like, education and faith. And I bring that all up because, for me, as hard as things are today, like, you can't get over, like, how far we've come. I mean, it was only two generations ago where I can hear the stories of my ancestors and what it meant for them to make their way to freedom. And so for me, I've got stories of Iowa growing up and being connected to my roots. Most of my young youth, young life I spent in Chicago. So I've got a lot of stories of Chicago and what it meant to, like, grow up there. And, you know Chicago. I mean, you know Chicago. I know it is.
- [08:52]
Sophia Bush
I know Chicago.
- [08:54]
Kelly Robinson
It's a town of, like, leaders and big voices and big figures, and that's what I was raised around. So, you know, when we think about the work that I do now of community service, it just felt like something that we didn't name organizing back then. It was just what it meant to be a good person and show up for your community.
- [09:12]
Interjecting Guest / Co-host
Yeah.
- [09:13]
Sophia Bush
When did the organizing bug get you? Like, when did it dawn on you what you were doing, what. What you're calling?
- [09:23]
Kelly Robinson
Yeah, well, I. My journey takes us through the Midwest. So I always say, anyone that flies over the middle of the country, you are missing out. Right. Go to Des Moines, Iowa. Go to Chicago. Go to where I went to school in Columbia, Missouri. I went there for college, and that was the first time that I'd really experienced, like, a more Southern version of racism, where, you know, folks will say one thing to your face, but then say a totally different thing when the sun goes down. Right. This kind of, like, duplicity. Not to say that racism wasn't alive and well in Chicago and Iowa, but this. This Missouri kind of Southern feel was just different from what I had grown up with. So I actually ended up leaving school. There were just too many things going on for me to kind of focus on academics. I just needed to take a break. And my mom said, that's cool, but you. You got to figure that out.
- [10:16]
Martha Stewart
Boo.
- [10:17]
Kelly Robinson
So I ended up bartending during the day and doing, like, MMA fighting at night to. To make money and get by.
- [10:25]
Sophia Bush
I'm obsessed with you.
- [10:27]
Kelly Robinson
And it was in that kind of journey that I got a call. This was like 2007, 2008, I got a call from the Obama campaign. They had heard about some of the work that I had done on campus and that I wasn't in school currently, and they needed organizers. And I was like, look, I don't know what an organizer is, but if I don't have to get punched in the face to make my rent, I'm willing to give it a try. And that's when I started. And I remember, like, I went into the office and people, of course, would come in for Barack Obama. But that feeling of why people stayed, they stayed because they found other people that they connected with, that they believed that change could be possible with. And we did things that felt impossible. We elected a black man, the first black man's president of the United States of America. We also helped somebody, like get a stop sign on their street to stop folks from speeding through and putting kids in danger. We helped somebody to run a campaign and get on their city council. And that was a moment when I really started to understand that, yeah, there's big things in front of us. Sexism, racism, homophobia. But there's really something that can happen when people come together with a shared purpose. The impossible can actually become possible. Yeah.
- [11:36]
Sophia Bush
Well, and. And one of the things I love about what you're saying, this is my drumbeat also. Since early Obama days, like, people think politics is for someone else. Policy happens somewhere else. You know, you thank God for Lin Manuel Miranda.
- [11:53]
Plan B / Ad Voice
Right.
- [11:53]
Sophia Bush
Like, he popularized it. And people, people now are like, the room where it happens. I'm like, keep singing and also volunteer. But policy is everything around us. You know, I'm. I'm on location right now in Colorado for this film we were talking about earlier. And I'm looking out my window and I see a stop sign and a one way sign and a no parking sign, and there's trees on this particular sidewalk in this neighborhood that I'm in. And like, all of that is the result of policy.
- [12:25]
Kelly Robinson
Absolutely.
- [12:26]
Sophia Bush
And I think people don't understand how personal it is. And when we take it away from this, like, boring process or this, somebody else is responsible for that. And you make it empowering when you personalize the political and you say, like, your kids need a playground. Let's organize the community for that.
- [12:47]
Podcast Announcer
Yes.
- [12:48]
Sophia Bush
You know, some. Some drinking fountains aren't working, you know, at your college, on campus, in one of your buildings. Let's organize around that. Like, there is actual real, I think, effervescent excitement in organizing if we can give people the weight into it. And you are so good at that. And I love that they tapped you for it. They were just like, whatever is your night job is over. You come work for us.
- [13:16]
Kelly Robinson
Oh, I love that. Well, you're so great at that too. And I think that's what we have to do with politics. We've got to make it proximal to people again and remind them that, like every policy that you see right now started off as an idea. Every law that exists on our books started off with Somebody imagining that we deserve something better. Right. And that's our job. And especially if you're. If you are a woman, if you're a queer person, if you're somebody that's living paycheck to paycheck, you may not want to be involved in politics, but politics is involved in your life already.
- [13:50]
Interjecting Guest / Co-host
Boo.
- [13:51]
Kelly Robinson
Right. Like, we have work to do to reclaim this space. And what I love doing with you and with the Human Rights Campaign is taking down the distance. Right. Between the people who are making the decisions and the people to whom they are accountable. And that's you and me and everyone that exists in our neighborhoods.
- [14:08]
Sophia Bush
Absolutely. And it's interesting, you know, connecting those issues, I think, is also so important, because a lot of people will think, oh, well, if you work on women's issues or you work on queer issues or you work on, I don't know, civil engineering with the state, like, whatever is your bag. They're actually all so interconnected, and an attack on one is. Is really an attack on all. You know, they've been. They. They figured out that if they could come for women and overturn roe, they could begin this work that they've always been trying. The. The far right has always tried to come for our community. And if they can destroy privacy laws for women, then they can destroy privacy laws for queer people. And if they can.
- [14:53]
Plan B / Ad Voice
Boogeyman.
- [14:54]
Sophia Bush
You know, our. Our incredibly small population and most at risk population of trans youth, then they can bully queer people again because we got pop. Realize we're everywhere, and when you see it, you can't unsee it. The desire for some of these systems of power to harm the most vulnerable so they can do the most damage. I'm really curious how the years you organized, especially around reproductive freedom, influenced the way you organize for the LGBTQ community with the hrc. Because I know. I know.
- [15:33]
Kelly Robinson
Yes, yes. You better make it plain for the people, Professor Bush, because you're exactly right. Everything is connected. And I think when our opposition talks about, quote, unquote, making America great again or going back to a simpler time, they're literally talking about going back. And for me, as a black queer woman, please do not put me in a time machine, because even though things are not where I need them to be today, don't take me back to the 60s. Don't take me back to the 40s. Please don't take me back to the 1800s, because we've made tremendous progress since then. Right. And our job right now is not just to protect the status quo, but it's actually to fight for the world as it should be and as it could be if we imagined a democracy with our lives at the center. And I think, you know, the fight for reproductive freedom. I spent 13 years working at Planned Parenthood. I went straight from, you know, the political campaign world into the world of reproductive rights and reproductive justice. And it is everything to me. The attack on our bodies, our ability to make decisions for ourselves, our economic opportunities, that was all playing out in the fight for abortion. And when you think about the script that they used, right, first isolate a huge segment of the population, women, right, Then try to narrow the ability of that group of people to make decisions for themselves and then convince even their allies that it's not a popular thing to talk about. That is a playbook of authoritarianism. And it's also similar to the playbook that we see playing out right now on trans lives. And where we've got to get people to, to understand is where the arc of progress always leads. Look, we're a country that kind of, you know, we do a little two step, a little, a little stutter step when it comes to progress, but in the long arc, we always end in the place of expanding rights and not narrowing them, especially for folks who start off with less right. And I think right now there's really that decision point in front of a lot of people of are you going to be on the right side of history? And that doesn't mean waiting for public opinion to catch up with the moral obligation that we have to fight for everyone's civil rights and civil liberties.
- [17:51]
Sophia Bush
Well, I think it's also particularly arresting because this is the first time in our modern lives our country has taken rights from people. We have absolutely impeded rights. We have enacted policies that have been prejudicial and just set in equity, you know, on steroids. But we, we have not, prior to this recent time, seen the Supreme Court take settled rights away. And that, that is very arresting to me. And, and to watch the way they're saying it all out loud, you know, we're going to take A.B. away. We don't care if women die. Women are dying all over this country and they don't care. Even that elected lady, whatever her name is, I don't even know I've, I've stricken her from my mental record. But who voted to take our rights away and then needed abortion care and couldn't get it and then finally got to get it because she's an elected official. I was like, well, that must be nice for you. You Know, is trying to say she doesn't think they did the wrong thing. And I'm like, at some point, you gotta wake up from this sort of reverie of loyalty to party over country or over the people you represent. And I don't know, it. It worries me because they announced that they are very bullish on overturning Oberfels, which affects all of us. You know, the idea that only some people in our country deserve rights is, frankly, so un American. And when you talk about how far we've come. Yes. You know, I think about different than your story, but I think about the fact that my grandmother came to this country on a boat with her family from Italy, walked through the stalls at Ellis island, you know, became an American. My grandmother was born in a stone farmhouse in Italy with no electricity or running water. And two generations later, I have a computer in my pocket and am, you know, an activist and a writer and a producer and an actor. And, like, what, you know, the progress is so clear, and the idea that there are people who want to take it from us, that somehow taking from us gives them more, is so strange to me. So when I think about you and the exceptional way you're able to talk to people about freedom, you know, you frame our freedom, our community's freedom, not just as an imperative, but you ask people questions, you ask them what they believe in in terms of freedom and dignity and belonging. And I'm curious, how has the motivation and also the question become a pairing for you? Like, how. How did you drill down on that as a way to wake people up to what democracy is supposed to look like?
- [20:56]
Kelly Robinson
And some of it is about helping people to really wrestle with the disconnect between our experiences of progress and then what actually exists in terms of our rights. Like, the last 60 years in American history have really been transformative when you think about the progress that we've made. Right? Like, women got the ability to get a credit card, you know, or access lines of credit to be able to buy homes in their own name. The Civil Rights act passed so that we could actually have, you know, voting rights for black folks. We had marriage equality become the law of the land. Roe v. Wade became law, and then UN Became law. But all those things happened, really, in the last 60 years or so. And while some of us were celebrating the diversity of our nation, how things were evolving and changing, I actually think that there was a segment of this country that was terrified by it. They saw all of this as we talk about what happened to our lives and our families. In two generations, there's a group of people that saw the same thing and became rooted in figuring out ways not to lose their hold on power because they couldn't imagine a democracy that could hold hold all of us. In fact, I used to have a. A pastor and say the reason that those people are so afraid is because they're worried that when folks who look and love like us have the power that matches our numbers, that we'll treat them just as terribly as they've treated us all these hundreds of years. Right?
- [22:17]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [22:18]
Kelly Robinson
But if that was your motivation, you start to kind of understand why people are so entrenched. And we've got to break through some of that and actually force ourselves to imagine a democracy. And Harold Washington, who was the first black mayor of Chicago, used to say this. That's actually fairer than fair to re envision a world where all of us actually have an equal shot and what that will take. And if we can construct that sort of a future that everyone can be a part of, that gives us the greatest room to access rights that aren't as shallow as we currently have. Because you're right. Right now, too many of our rights are hanging on a single Supreme Court case. The fall of Roe v. Wade showed us that pretty clearly. When Roe was overturned and you had all those state trigger laws that were just waiting for that to happen so that they could criminalize abortion access. If Obergefell is overturned, we've got some protection with the Respect for Marriage act, but it doesn't guarantee that you can actually get married in every state. If Lawrence v. Texas is overturned, there are still states with laws on the books that are banning sodomy, which could create a world where states could criminalize whatever you are doing in your bedroom. That's how shallow our rights are right now. So the reason that I think we ask these questions to envision the future of democracy is because this is a participatory sport. We gotta be able to construct it for ourselves and help people to understand that there is right now a disconnect in what many of us, not all of us, but many of us have experienced in terms of the ability to move in the world and what's actually protected under law. And now's the time that we actually need to fortify that foundation, not just by protecting the things that were right. Look, Roe was always the floor and never the ceiling when it came to. To protecting abortion access, but instead to use this moment of crisis when everyone understands that something's wrong, to actually build the democracy that we want.
- [24:15]
Sophia Bush
And how do you think we do that?
- [24:17]
Kelly Robinson
Now that's a big question. Look, it starts with getting the power to make it happen, right? Like we got to turn out to vote this year. And you're seeing like tremendous things happen all over the country when it comes to elections. From progressive candidates or winning primaries with visionary platforms to pro equality candidates overperforming in districts to the district where Donald Trump votes in Mar a Lago now being represented by a Democrat in Florida. Right. Like there are these tremendous things that are happening, but for us to get to change, we got to have power first. So the first step is we got to win some elections. But the second step, and it has to happen in close secession, is we got to hold people in office accountable to, to our vision for democracy.
- [25:01]
Sophia Bush
Yes, yes, totally. And it's a weird thing, right? I don't know, I, I've sort of been on this seesaw of hope and exhaustion and it was a strange thing to celebrate America's 250th birthday. You know, I was like, well, what are we, like what are we celebrating? You know, I celebrate the idea, the, the sacredness of the idea that we are building an equal nation. And I also am heartbroken to see it, you know, being chopped up like one of Donald Trump's casinos. And the way he's distracting from the chop up and the sale of all the parts is by making everybody hate each other. I'm just like, this is how basic we are. Oh God. And you know, to add insult to injury, attacks on our community and you know, over 600 bills trying to criminalize queer people. And then, then, and then, you know, you tell the story of your family. Like I, I would be remiss to not say the, the terror I feel loving my, my family, our children, my friends, your children. You know, looking at what's happening around the country to black youth, to kids like Nolan Wells, you know, when, when historians are starting to ask like, like could this potentially be a resurgence of KKK activity around the 250, like what's going on here? You know, feels like there is so much rage directed at all of us and I, I guess I just wonder, yes, we have to turn out and vote and yes, we got to take our school boards back from those moms for Liberty cuckoo banana pants people. And like, yes, we have to figure out how to actually get Congress to do its damn job. But you know, how do you as a queer black woman, like, how are you moving through the world right now? How are you how are you remaining hopeful? How are you refusing to change
- [27:20]
Kelly Robinson
how
- [27:20]
Sophia Bush
you move and where you move?
- [27:22]
Kelly Robinson
Or.
- [27:22]
Sophia Bush
Or are you taking different steps? Are there places you don't feel like you can go right now? Like, what. What is all that in your being and in your family?
- [27:33]
Kelly Robinson
I mean, it's hard to sit in both. Like, you're right. For me, the week of America's 250th birthday, well, I'm just trying to have my hot dogs and a little sparkler.
- [27:45]
Sophia Bush
Like, just give me a hot dog and some onions, please.
- [27:47]
Kelly Robinson
The best of America, if you will. But it's the. The reminder of who America is showed itself, right? Yet Nolan Wells, which, oh, my gosh, is a parent right of kids of color rips your heart apart. You had ICE murder two people in
- [28:06]
Sophia Bush
cold blood in the last week. Just two dads. Like, what are we doing?
- [28:12]
Kelly Robinson
You even have the Supreme Court rule again to legalize discriminate discrimination against trans youth. You had all of this happen in the same week. And for me, I can't say that that's not who America is, because that's definitely part of our story, right? But when I do think about the 250th of America, I also try to remember that there's another side to our story, too. The side of the story where, you know, Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera, throw the. The first brick. The side of the story where John Lewis Marks marches across the Selma Bridge. The side of the story where the women come together in Seneca Falls to imagine a different reality. Like, that is as much America, too. And when my, my. I told you my family story about Iowa, how we the first free black family there. And I remember my great aunt, who's a matriarch of our family, she died at the age of 102. And just before she passed, it was. She passed like one year into Trump's first term, I believe. And I was talking to her and I said, you know, Aunt Burch, and my great aunt, I said, things are so terrible now. Things are so terrible. What are we going to do? And she said, baby, you ain't special. And she reminded me of how, like, my grandfather fought in World War II for this country, and he fought at a time when he was fighting for rights for people who would not let him drink out of the same water fountain. And yet he stood for this nation not because of what it was, but because of the promise of America and what it could be. And because of that sacrifice, we get to have, like you said, computers in our pockets beyond zoom. Talk about a nation not just where we can live, but a nation where we. We can thrive. And I think that the greatest tool of an oppressor, whether you look at the Trump administration, you look globally, look at the history of authoritarians, is when the people lose hope. And I will be damned if democracy dies on our watch. I will be damned if we are the generation that gives up because it got hard. This is the hard part, and this is what our ancestors have set us up to do. So it's not quite the rosiest of viewpoints on this nation, but I think it's an important one. That part of the American story is the story of people, then the face of adversity, refuse to give in. And that's the chapter I feel like we've got to write together.
- [30:40]
Plan B / Ad Voice
I agree.
- [30:41]
Sophia Bush
And you know what I wonder? For us, there is. There is no better story than the one your grandfather believed in, right? Like. Like this true melting pot of. Of anyone and everyone who wants to be an American can be an American. Even Reagan said that, like, you can't become a Frenchman, but you can become an American, you know, and gave that speech. And he listed off a bunch more countries. I don't need the French people to come for me. I love y', all, but sorry about
- [31:13]
Kelly Robinson
the World cup, but.
- [31:13]
Sophia Bush
Yes, I know. Oh, God, that was heavy. Also, though, congratulations to Spain. Both end. Both. But. But, like, one of the things I think about us is our story, the ideal, the kind of, like, the seed at the middle is so good that there is rightfully so. So much shame about all the wrong that has come with it. Like, if you think about it as two, you know, two scales, two sides of the scale, I guess, like, we really want to lean into the good stuff, and we want to ignore the bad stuff. And. And some of the people who tell us to ignore the bad stuff want us to be so rah rah for the good, so we don't pay attention to the bad stuff they're doing. Yes, I'm talking about Donald Trump and all his friends, but it strikes me, you know, the time I've spent in Germany, there is no denying history here. There are memorials and plaques and museums and, I mean, parks where you interactively walk through art installations that are meant to acknowledge what happened there and what the Nazis did and what they did to other people. You are never allowed to forget. And symbols are banned and gestures are banned, and, like, they do not play with how hideous that chapter of their national story was. And I think part of what we have to do to build the America we've all always deserved. To actually claim like the good seed is also start acknowledging the bad. I think we have to build the memorials. I think we, you know, like what Bryan Stevenson did in the South. They should be everywhere. Like, we have to start to say we have so much to be grateful for, but let's not. Let's not play about how we got here. And that's what we haven't been willing to do. And I fear that our lack of willingness to do it is part of why we keep opening the door for people who want to keep doing it.
- [33:28]
Kelly Robinson
I could not agree more. Look, this nation, for better or worse, is going to outlive Donald Trump. The story that we tell about this chapter matters. I mean, just look at right now. They're trying to make us believe that January 6th was a doggone Boston Tea Party. Right? They're trying to rewrite history. There's a reason why Texas is banning the story of our history in their history books. There's a reason why this administration is coming after education, because an uninformed populace is one that you can control. So telling our story and reckoning with it is an important piece of it. And I actually think that, to your point, in that reckoning, we can think of ways to move forward differently. What do they say? Old folks used to say, when you know better, you do better, but this is our chance to do that. I think the worry that I have is, is that sometimes we get so entrenched in all of the bad that we can miss all of the light that has still allowed us to survive. And I think it's possible for us to actually be able to hold both. That's a complicated nature of being humans, a complicated nature of being an American. But for me, look, as a black person, I ain't got nowhere else to go. So we've gotta claim. We've gotta be willing to claim this nation. I think about James Baldwin a lot who said, you know, I love America more than any country in the world. That's why I criticize her relentlessly. It is okay, yes, to criticize this nation, but it's not okay to give up on her and still want to be a part of the American story. We have to reclaim and embrace what is ours and what our ancestors have already fought and already paid for.
- [35:08]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, we. We have too much history here. We literally have too much blood. Exactly. To ever say, I think about, you know, W. Kamal Bell. He said something, it must have been like a year ago. He said, anytime I get overwhelmed or I think, like, I can't keep fighting this, this. I'm, I'm done. He goes, the ghost of Harriet Dub and smacks me across the face. And it just made me laugh so hard. I was like, fair point. Because the people whose footsteps were following in have done incredible work. And no matter how bad it is, we have it better than they did. And so we better not be the lazy generation.
- [35:52]
Kelly Robinson
We better not. Can you imagine on the other side the way our ancestors would collect us? You didn't march because you were afraid they'd find you online. You better get in those streets.
- [36:03]
Martha Stewart
Right?
- [36:03]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. Also, like, oh, you didn't, you didn't go to the protest because you were doomed scrolling. Get stuff out of here. And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy, and I think you will too. This is for those who experience allergic reactions from food, medicine, insects or other allergy triggers. I want to tell you about Nephi, the only needle Free epinephrine, a nasal spray for those who weigh 33 pounds or more. It's used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. And Nephi works as well as a needle injector and delivers the same trusted epinephrine in a nasal spray. It's designed to be safe and easy to use at the first sign of symptoms, so in a high stress moment, your child or someone else can act quickly to treat an allergic reaction, even if you're not there. NEFI is also small, discreet and easy to carry, including in a backpack or a lunchbox or a sports bag, so your child is prepared anywhere the day takes them. You can pay as little as $0 for at least four Nefi devices, two packs through the copay Savings program with commercial insurance if eligible, Patients should not pay more than $199 for NEFI. If you have medical conditions or take certain medicines, your condition may worsen. So tell your doctor about nasal heart, thyroid or kidney issues, high blood pressure, Parkinson's, diabetes, if you're pregnant or breastfeeding, and any and all medications. Side effects include nasal discomfort, headache, runny nose, shakiness, and throat irritation. Those are not all side effects. If your child needs a new epinephrine prescription or refill, don't wait. Ask your doctor about needle free Nephi today. Visit nefy.com that's N E F-F Y or call 1-877-my-NECHIP to learn more. Stay safe out there. Pull up a chair to at the table, the Food Allergy Podcast. Each episode, they explore how food allergies shape the way we travel, date, celebrate and connect. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to at the Table, the Food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeartRadio. Follow at the table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.
- [38:25]
Plan B / Ad Voice
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- [38:58]
Sophia Bush
We are in the middle of summer and my goodness, am I so happy that it's light earlier and later that we're getting outside more. I feel like there's just something about those extra hours of daylight that refreshes not just my morning or my evening, but my whole day, my whole summer season. You know, getting outside, going on hikes, visiting lakes. I found a fishing spot. It is heaven. And I think we all feel that, right? Because summer's all about renewing and refreshing. And sometimes that refresh doesn't have to mean, you know, a trip or an adventure. It can be as simple as upgrading your look. Maybe a new piece of clean beauty. From our friends at Thrive Cosmetics. Every product they make is 100% vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean ingredients that work with your skin, not against it. And friends, when we use Thrive Cosmetics, we're helping others shine too. With over $150 million in product and cash donations to over 600 giving partners, every purchase fuels real impact. And I think that is beauty with purpose. One of my favorite summertime Thrive cosmetics is the Empower Matte Precision Lipstick Crayon. It comes in 18 long lasting matte shades so I can go natural, bright or bold and it always leaves lips looking luscious and fuller. Another one of my staples is their brilliant eye brightener. It's actually a waterproof eyeshadow highlighter stick that really keeps you looking refreshed even in the summer heat. Gives you a little glow. So to amplify your Everyday, go to thrivecosmetics.com progress for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com progress. I started to think about the pressure we put on our children and how that pressure is really being manipulated, especially in sports and especially with trans kids. And they're claiming like, oh, trans kids can't play sports because we have to protect the girls. All the kids are friends. Like what are we talking about? Kids just want to play with their friends. You know, some little nine year old trans girl on a soccer team isn't taking an a space away from another nine year old, they're just playing. And it's, it's surreal to me that the people who are trying to defund anything that has to do with women, they've literally labeled the word women DEI and they want to cut all our funding, including in sports, are saying this is somehow for the women. Why do you think trans youth especially is being targeted? Is it because just statistically so many people in this country don't know a trans person or don't know that they know a trans person so they can boogeyman these kids?
- [42:09]
Kelly Robinson
Kids, it's like you said, they're looking for a boogeyman right now. And I think it's, it is so sad to me because there used to be a line in politics that people didn't cross, right? You just didn't go after kids. But right now you have adults, grown people that are spending time, energy and money in states across the country pushing hundreds of bills to target kids as young as 5 years old. Can you imagine, at a time when gas prices are through the roof, there's wars all over the world, health care premiums are out of control, there's explosive diarrhea on the strawberries. Like this is what you're spending your time and your energy on. Why if you look just one layer further, there was a quote from the head of American Principles Project, one of these extremist right wing organizations, and they said that after the 20, 20, 22 election cycle. So remember, that's after Roe is overturned through the Dobbs decision and they lose just a, a whole range of ballot initiatives on abortion access. They threw issues at the wall to see what would stick. And attacks on trans kids is what stuck. This is not about safety in sports, it's not about protecting girls. It's about using a community that people don't know enough about yet to make it seem like there's a boogeyman that's the source of all their challenges. And now's the time where we got to break through that myth. And I think that people are, People are getting wise to it.
- [43:38]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, I think people are getting wise to it. And I think especially a point that I have made to some people that has been a big aha is how, how do you enforce what little kids are trans and aren't you? You want some stranger at a school or at an after school sports club inspecting your children's genitalia? Because that's the only way, that's the only way to check. So what you're actually voting for is to put all children, and let's be real, this will focus mostly on little girls. You are, you are voting to put children at risk of sexual abuse under the guise of saying you want to protect them from other children. Like, everybody better wake up real quick because that's not what we're going to do here. And what we're certainly not going to do is put our, our kids under threat.
- [44:33]
Kelly Robinson
Look, we know that there's political attacks are happening, but the way that we break through the policy is by getting closer to the people, by having conversations with our friends, with our neighbors, with other parents right in our communities. And that's what this moment charges us to do. You know, I was talking with one of my colleagues about the marriage fight and how we actually got to marriage equality. And she reminded me of two things. Like, remember in 2004, there were a ton of anti marriage ballot initiatives and bills are moving all across the country. 2004. But in the aftermath of that, when folks saw the cruelty and how wrong it was to discriminate against our friends and neighbors, things, things started to change. And I think that we're at that point now. And she also reminded me that in that time they said that they would measure their success by the moment when kids could come out to their parents as gay and the parents wouldn't cry out of fear. We have overcome that bar in so many ways for the lesbian, gay and bi community. That's where we need to go with the trans community. We're coming out and experiencing the freedom of who they want to be. Does not, not feel like a threat to their future and to their lives. And that to me, like, I don't care where you live in this country, I don't care what your identity is, what your religion is, what your politic is. All of us want our kids to experience that kind of freedom. And if we can start having that conversation, that is transformative, not just for a year, but for a generation.
- [46:03]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And you know, it's funny because I think there's also this, this, this talking point. They're like, oh, you know, everybody's gay. And it's like, well, everybody used to be right handed until we stopped the rules that said if kids were left handed, you had to change it. And then suddenly there were all these left handed people. They were always left handed, you know, and it's like, guys, if, if media or knowing gay people made kids gay, then everyone would be straight. Because every movie ever is about straight people. All the kids, cartoons, all the Disney movies, like, it's not a real thing. We gotta, we gotta like, get past this idea that seeing people is a bad thing. Knowing gay people or trans people isn't gonna make your kid gay or trans, but it will make your gay or trans kid make it to adulthood. And that's the difference, you know, And I think about this a lot in terms of. Because you know me, I love math because these are very. These are emotional issues and they're moral issues and they're all the things and they're spiritual issues. But, like, the math and the morals. Me, I get excited. And so like, when people in the healthcare world talk about women's issues like endometriosis and say, that's niche, I'm like, we are 51% of the population.
- [47:22]
Plan B / Ad Voice
We're actually the majority.
- [47:23]
Sophia Bush
So an issue that affects us is not a niche niche. It's actually a crisis.
- [47:28]
Plan B / Ad Voice
And.
- [47:28]
Sophia Bush
And when people talk about our community and they're like, well, you know, LGBTQ people, I'm like, conservative. Estimates say 1 in 5, probably 1 in 4. So women are 51 of the population. The gays are probably 25. We're not a niche.
- [47:45]
Plan B / Ad Voice
Like, you guys, you gotta get over
- [47:47]
Sophia Bush
it, like, catch up. Come to the party. Our parties are more fun anyway. You're welcome as long as you're not rude and, like, let's move it along, you know?
- [47:55]
Kelly Robinson
Totally. Yeah. And like, I think that there's something to all those people that are saying, like, everybody's gay. What's happening? I think they're actually either saying, the world is changing and I don't know how I can be a part of it. Right? Which, look, I felt that way when, you know, we move from computers to Macs, but now look at me on my Mac. I'm doing okay, right? Or when we move from my Nokia phone to a smartphone. It was hard, but that kind of of transition. And we need to create a world where change isn't seen as a bad thing, but it's actually seen as A positive way that we grow. Or some of them are saying, why does that person get to experience a freeness that I have to hold back every day in my life? And I wonder how many of those people actually are trying to unlock something that has felt so deep and core to them but has been stigmatized in a way that they can't break free from and through. That's the thing about this kind of a movement. When we do it well, when we don't discard people that are moving through their challenges of change, but find ways to create on ramps for them, you actually create more freeness for everybody. For that little boy that wants to paint his nails, for that girl that wants to have short hair, for anyone that wants to engage in the world in whatever way they see fit, you create more space for it. So I think this is one of those times where there we're going to look back and say, can you believe that there was a time when people fell away about trans people? You know, because we'll reach a different level of freeness. But this point of moving through that tension is a really important one about how we navigate it not from a political perspective, but just as people that can see each other again.
- [49:32]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, yeah. To. Again, to personalize it, you know, in a really real way. And then hopefully, that personal motivation takes us into action. You know, we're. We're coming up on the midterms. Like, how are you encouraging people to think about what's at stake for our community in the upcoming election? Like, if they are feeling apathetic or if they're feeling tired, what are the things that you think help remind them? Like, you can't give up yet. And this is why, you know, we're
- [50:06]
Kelly Robinson
actually at a moment where I feel like if there's one thing that most people can agree on, it's that something is not right in this country, because people experience it every day. When you walk out of your front door, right? Whether it's the gas prices or you can't get berries at the store anymore, or worrying that your kid's gonna make it home from school safely, right? Like, everybody is running into a crisis at some point in their day. So our challenge right now isn't necessarily reminding people of what's at stake. It's helping them to believe that there's something that you can do about it and that your vote matters. And right now, like, if you just look across this country, there are so many races and districts are decided by a handful of votes. Your vote matters. We gotta make sure that people turn out. And at this point, look, right now there's still school board races across the country. There are thousands of school board races. Right?
- [50:59]
Interjecting Guest / Co-host
Right.
- [50:59]
Kelly Robinson
Tens of thousands of them. There are so many races where there are open seats. Just because nobody raised their hand, that could be you. If you have a problem with your schools, now's the time to jump on that school board. But our job at the Human Rights Campaign is to give folks something to do. Let them know that there's a community that backs them up and if they want to take that next step in their leadership, give them the tools to do it.
- [51:20]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. This is for those who experience allergic reactions from food, medicine, insects or other allergy triggers. About 60% of patients do not consistently carry their epinephrine needle injectors, which scares me. And that's why I wanted to tell you all about our new friends at Nephi. Nephi is the only needle free epinephrine nasal spray for those who weigh 33 pounds or more. It's used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, which is a big deal. Nephi works as well as a needle injector, and it's designed to be safe and easy to use at the first sign of symptoms, so in a high stress moment, you can quickly treat an allergic reaction. NEFI is also small and discreet, so it's easier to carry as part of your everyday routine. That way, you always have it with you if the unexpected happens. You can pay as little as $0 for at least four Nefi devices, two packs through the copay Savings program with commercial insurance. If eligible patients should not pay more than $199 for NEFI. If you have medical conditions or take certain medicines, your condition may worsen. So tell your doctor about nasal, heart, thyroid or kidney issues, high blood pressure, Parkinson's, diabetes, if you're pregnant or breastfeeding and all medications you take. Side effects include nasal discomfort, headache, runny nose, shakiness and throat irritation. These are not all side effects. Before you get a new epinephrine prescription or refill, ask a doctor about needle free Nephi today. Visit nefy.com that's N-E-F-F-Y.com or call 1-877-MY-Nephy to learn more. That invite to brunch.
- [53:15]
Plan B / Ad Voice
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- [53:19]
Sophia Bush
When you've got food allergies, it's research preparation and food avoidance. But over time.
- [53:26]
Plan B / Ad Voice
You've learned to plan, prepare, and stay
- [53:29]
Sophia Bush
safe, and you still show up anyway. Welcome to at the Table, the food
- [53:35]
Plan B / Ad Voice
Allergy podcast brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Each episode pulls up a chair to
- [53:41]
Sophia Bush
a different table, from date nights to
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Plan B / Ad Voice
tables abroad, and explores what it really means to navigate each moment while still eating safely. Join Tyler Florence, a chef who was diagnosed with 42 food allergies as a
- [53:56]
Sophia Bush
child, and Jenna Uskowitz, a mom navigating food allergies every day. Together, they discuss real stories from people
- [54:03]
Plan B / Ad Voice
living with food allergies. The challenges, but also the wins. Because living with food allergies isn't just
- [54:10]
Sophia Bush
about what you can't eat.
- [54:11]
Plan B / Ad Voice
It's about still having your seat at the table.
- [54:14]
Sophia Bush
Listen to at the Table, the food
- [54:16]
Plan B / Ad Voice
allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow at the Table and start listening
- [54:22]
Sophia Bush
on the free iHeartRadio app today.
- [54:24]
Plan B / Ad Voice
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- [54:57]
Martha Stewart
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- [56:09]
Sophia Bush
How would you encourage people? You know, I feel like the HRC is such an enormous organization in so many ways and there's people all the time that are just discovering that it exists for for folks at home who maybe know what what we are but not how to get involved or maybe even for people who are like, I've heard of the Human Rights Campaign. What does that do? Like, how would you encourage listeners to understand what we do and then how to get involved?
- [56:36]
Kelly Robinson
Yeah. We are here to make sure that no matter where you live or who you are, you've got a way to stand up for LGBTQ equality equ, either either as a member of our community or as an ally. So I always encourage folks to come visit us, find us on, you know, the interwebs. Find us@hrc.org we've got toolkits. We've got ways to connect you with local volunteers. But if you just want to get started, start by telling your story. Start by going out and talking to your neighbors about why the election matters or about why trans kids matter or about why you're an ally or what your experience has been like being a member of our community in these tough times, because we know that the number one thing that moves other people to action is knowing that somebody that they love and care about needs them to be a part of this fight. I also think that symbolism matters right now. Putting up a little HRC sticker in your neighborhood or at your business, like, that's important because people are looking for those signs, those symbols that there are safe spaces that are still available to us. If you want to do more, there are tons of things you can do, from running for a school board to volunteering on an HRC steering committee in your area, to making sure that you're joining political campaigns to help to turn out the vote. But we can be a source to help you figure out the right ways to get engaged.
- [57:51]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, that's one thing I'd like to encourage people. You know, your. Your local HRC chapter is such a great resource for civic engagement in general. Just to know where to go, who to learn from, how to get involved. It's. It's pretty inspiring. And one of the things I love. You know, we do our. Our big board meeting in D.C. and so many of the chapters come, and we get to just hang out with everybody and meet people from all over. And I'm. I'm always so impressed with the things that they're activating on, you know, both in terms of how to stand up for the LGBTQ community, but also their community at large, whether it's school kids or, you know, I don't know, clean water, like, they're working on all of it. And it's a. It's a really good place to get Started and kind of find your. Your thing, find your people.
- [58:41]
Kelly Robinson
That's what this is all about, right? We want folks to know that you're not alone at HRC. We've got over 4 million members across the country that are committed to this. And that's why I say, like, you know, as hard as things are right now, I just want every young person that's coming out, every trans kid, every parent of queer kids, to know that there are millions of people that have your back. And when you're ready to join us, we are ready to wrap you in this rainbow embrace.
- [59:09]
Sophia Bush
I love that. How do you feel like becoming a parent has changed the way you advocate?
- [59:18]
Kelly Robinson
Oh, there's the before parenthood and there's now. And I was always like a serious advocate, but I never really understood what it meant to have your heart beating outside of your body, to have little people that you want to so fiercely protect in this world, to be charged with not only creating a world that they deserve, but creating a world that's deserving of them. And right now, I just feel like for our kids, the urgency of this moment is unparalleled. And I just want to make sure that when they grow up and they asked me, you know, what we did in this moment, I can say without flinching and without hesitation that we did everything that we could. But I feel that immense responsibility to my kids.
- [60:02]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, me too. It's wild. It's like it takes the idea of what we leave, you know, how. How we care for this planet while we're on it. It takes the abstraction, and it makes it so immediate.
- [60:16]
Interjecting Guest / Co-host
It.
- [60:16]
Sophia Bush
Because it's, what am I leaving for you? You know, what are. What are you? Literally, what will you inherit on this earth? And I think there's something really profound in committing to making sure that all of our children inherit a place where they're welcome.
- [60:35]
Kelly Robinson
Yes. And that they know it's their job to protect it for everyone that comes after them.
- [60:42]
Sophia Bush
Yes. Yes. It's all of our jobs. If there were, like, three things. Speaking of jobs, we're getting a little homework here. Three tasks, three things, three action items that you would want to offer to listeners to begin on their making a difference journey. What do you think?
- [60:59]
Kelly Robinson
Oh, I love this question.
- [61:01]
Sophia Bush
Oh, good.
- [61:02]
Kelly Robinson
Yeah. Number one, speak up. Tell your story. Don't let people say lies about our community without hearing from you. Number two, find a candidate that you love and give them $5. Join their campaign, but be a part of it. But find a candidate that inspires you and get active and Then three, and this one is a little bit kind of heady, but, like, don't give up. Have a practice every day where you remind yourself that change is possible, but never let your spirit feel like. Like the way that we are today is the way that we're always going to be, but we're maintaining that kind of resilience about where we're going to go as a community. It is so important to get to the next phase of this fight.
- [61:46]
Sophia Bush
I love that it's almost a resiliency practice or a joy practice. Yeah. Well, and for you, my very favorite question to ask everybody. What. And it can be personal, professional. It could be for hrc. Anything you. Anything that strikes you. But it. I'm really curious because you do so much and you achieve so much and you advocate for so much. What feels like your work in progress right now?
- [62:12]
Kelly Robinson
Oh, that's such a. That's such a great question. Wow. My work in progress. I think my work in progress is like trying to figure out how this human thing is supposed to work. You know, balancing, if you can, the mom piece and the work piece and the. The tending to oneself piece all at the same time. I don't know if there's any answers to it, but. Woo. She's a work in progress, I'll tell you that.
- [62:39]
Sophia Bush
I feel that deeply every day. I'm like, if the. I'm so tired, but also, if I could just have four more hours in the day, I might get it done.
- [62:49]
Kelly Robinson
That's right. I might actually have a shot, but I'll.
- [62:53]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, like, I might have a shot, but also I wanted to go to sleep an hour ago, both. And I feel like that's my personal seesaw.
- [63:00]
Kelly Robinson
And I feel like that's indicative of the movement. Right. Like, I want, as leading the Human Rights Campaign, to build a movement I've always wanted to be a part of, one that is rigorous about the change that we want to make in the world, but it's equally rigorous about finding joy and celebrating each other with reckless abandon. Right. And I think finding ways to embody that in ourselves. Like. Like, that's a work in progress, too.
- [63:26]
Sophia Bush
I love that. Yeah. It. It's the work that's never done, but I think if you figure out how to do it in a way that feels good, that's. That's a life.
- [63:38]
Kelly Robinson
That's a life. That's a life. That's a movement. Yeah.
- [63:41]
Sophia Bush
All right, friends. Well, you better be following Kelly Robinson on Instagram and all the things. And the Human Rights Campaign on Instagram and all the things and come join us also at Shameless Plug Mug as a board member. Our new merch is so crop tops for everyone. Like it's so cute. And the sweat says yes, I wear it.
- [64:02]
Kelly Robinson
I love it.
- [64:03]
Sophia Bush
Ever since I saw it on Nick, I was like, I'm buying that immediately. And now I wear it everywhere and people are like, oh, what is that? And what I love about our merch is it's so good. And also people go, what is that? And then it's a conversation.
- [64:17]
Kelly Robinson
I love it.
- [64:18]
Sophia Bush
So you know, get yourself a hat or a T shirt and then you got a good way to begin your combo.
- [64:24]
Kelly Robinson
That's a perfect way to start, right?
- [64:26]
Sophia Bush
Just a little cute. We deserve it. Well, thank you for coming.
- [64:31]
Kelly Robinson
Thank you. This was so fun. Thank you Sophia Bush. We love you.
- [64:50]
Sophia Bush
Choices.
- [64:50]
Plan B / Ad Voice
Aren't they great? It's why Plan B made over the counter emergency contraception legal more than 20 years ago because now you have a backup plan and a choice that's freedom to be. Plan B is the number one OB GYN recommended emergency contraception. It is not an abortion pill. Get it immediately at all major retailers in store or delivery. Use Plan B emergency contraception as directed within 72 hours after unprotected sex. The sooner you take it, the better it works.
- [65:23]
Xolair / Ad Voice
Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.
- [66:33]
Podcast Announcer
This is a stunning story based on the hit true crime podcast Betrayal. He was a tall, handsome police officer, the man of her dreams. Caroline knew right away he was the man she would spend her life with. But then she got a text that changed everything. The man she loved was a severe sex addict, having affair after affair with so many different women in his cop car while on duty. I implore you to watch Dirty Secrets now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [67:03]
Interjecting Guest / Co-host
This episode is brought to you by Bobcat. They started the compact equipment industry through grit, determination, and a whole lot of think we can't do that. Watch us. They set standards, broke records, empowered people to build bigger and higher, to dig deeper, to make the impossible possible. We've all been there with doubters telling us what we can't do. Who cares what they think? We don't need their permission or forgiveness. We just get things done. So go ahead and doubt me, judge me, challenge me. But when the time comes, watch me. Bobcat.
- [67:40]
Kelly Robinson
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [67:43]
Podcast Announcer
Guaranteed Human.