Work In Progress: Bozoma Saint John

Summary

Work in Progress: Bozoma Saint John

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush | iHeartPodcasts | Released July 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Work in Progress with Sophia Bush, Sophia engages in a deep and inspiring conversation with Bozoma Saint John, a trailblazing marketer and cultural influencer. Bozoma shares her remarkable journey through some of the world's most influential companies and delves into her new venture, Eve by Boz, a hair care line manufactured entirely in Ghana. The discussion highlights themes of leadership, diversity, personal growth, and the importance of centering oneself in both professional and personal life.

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Bozoma’s Early Life and Background

Bozoma Saint John opens up about her multicultural upbringing, moving from Kenya to Ghana and eventually settling in Colorado Springs at the age of 12. This diverse background instilled in her a deep curiosity about people and cultures, which later became a cornerstone of her professional success.

“At 10, I was already very curious about the world and people... What do people love? What were they thinking?”
[08:19] – Bozoma Saint John

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Navigating Corporate Leadership

Bozoma discusses her experiences breaking into the C-suite of companies traditionally dominated by white men. She emphasizes the importance of bringing her unique perspective to these environments and how her presence alone begins to change the corporate "matter."

“Once you walk in, there's no room to feel like an imposter. Because you do. Why in the hell would you be there?”
[10:45] – Bozoma Saint John

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Embracing Diversity and Inclusion

The conversation shifts to the significance of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the workplace. Bozoma argues that true leadership arises from a place of curiosity and understanding, rather than mere policy compliance.

“If we led from a place of curiosity, the world would be better because we would want to know about other people.”
[06:30] – Bozoma Saint John

“It's just common sense and the way that we should be as human beings.”
[14:37] – Bozoma Saint John

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Personal Loss and Growth

Bozoma shares a profoundly personal story about the loss of her husband to cancer in 2013. This experience taught her the concept of "urgency" — not about speed, but about intention and living purposefully. It reshaped her outlook on life and fueled her drive to make meaningful contributions.

“Urgency is about intention. You're doing it for you and not the expectation of anyone else.”
[32:21] – Bozoma Saint John

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Leadership Philosophy and Urgency

Bozoma emphasizes the power of individual actions in driving change. She believes that each person's unique experiences and perspectives are vital in shaping better organizations and communities.

“Show up as your full self... your molecule truly matters.”
[13:24] – Bozoma Saint John

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Balancing Career and Motherhood

Sophia and Bozoma discuss the challenges and joys of balancing a high-powered career with motherhood. Bozoma underscores the importance of centering oneself to achieve fulfillment in both roles.

“You are the center of your life... make sure you are urgent about the things that you're doing and make sure that you're doing it for you.”
[35:19] – Bozoma Saint John

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New Ventures and Future Projects

Bozoma introduces her latest endeavor, Eve by Boz, a hair care line tailored specifically for black women and women of color. She recounts her journey from discovering gaps in the market to establishing a factory in Ghana to produce products that truly cater to her target audience.

“I built a factory in Ghana where I could then manufacture the product myself with black women and women of color at the center of it.”
[28:09] – Bozoma Saint John

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Marketing Insights

Bozoma offers valuable marketing advice, advising business owners to narrow their target audience and focus on making their offerings resonate deeply with a specific group rather than trying to appeal to everyone.

“Make your target small and it needs to be centered on you... get the people to fall in love with that.”
[54:05] – Bozoma Saint John

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Closing Thoughts

Bozoma leaves listeners with a powerful message about living a life filled with purpose and intention. She encourages everyone to center themselves, make intentional choices, and embrace their unique contributions to create meaningful change.

“Center yourself in your life because you'll be a much more fulfilled person.”
[35:19] – Bozoma Saint John

“Live as wide as possible... have lived the width of it.”
[32:21] – Bozoma Saint John

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Conclusion

This episode of Work in Progress is a testament to Bozoma Saint John's resilience, passion, and unwavering commitment to making a difference. Her insights into leadership, diversity, and personal growth provide invaluable lessons for anyone striving to lead authentically and purposefully.

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Notable Quotes:

• “I deeply love people... it's part of why I do the work that I do.”
  Bozoma Saint John [06:00]

• “Urgency isn't necessarily about speed... it's about intention.”
  Bozoma Saint John [32:21]

• “If you have to do list, and there are things on there that have moved so many times... get rid of it.”
  Bozoma Saint John [44:39]

• “I'm passing on this belief system... because I want her to be the most fulfilled person she can be.”
  Bozoma Saint John [41:21]

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Tune in to gain deeper insights from one of the most influential voices in marketing and leadership today.

Transcript

[Danielle]

This is an I Heart Podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

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[Bozema St. John]

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[Sophia Bush]

Hi everyone, it's Sophia.

Welcome to Work in Progress.

[Danielle]

We're about to witness a live podcast recording of Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. I know we have some Sophia Bush fans in the house. She is that girl. She is an activist, an actress, an entrepreneur, a storyteller. She stole our hearts in One Tree Hill and since then she's done what so few have the courage to do. She used her platform to advocate for social justice, for women's rights, for civic engagement. Her podcast Work in Progress is on my queue every week and she explores the messy Meaningful journeys of people who inspire her. Okay, we have a major surprise guest. I'm excited. I get to introduce her. It is Bozema St. John. Now, Bozema is the definition of if you want it, go get it. From Pepsi to Apple to Uber to Netflix to. She hasn't just shaped brands, she's shaped culture. Okay. Now she's rewriting the playbook again with her new company, Eve by Boz. It's a hair care line with products manufactured entirely in Ghana, where she was born. So because Boz doesn't do anything halfway, the hair is amazing. Let's welcome these ladies with the energy they deserve. Sophia bush at Bozouma St. John.

[Bozema St. John]

Hello.

[Sophia Bush]

Hello, everyone. We were just watching how wonderful this is and organized, and Danielle called that nice woman up to share about her company. And I looked at Bose and I was like, see, when people ask me, oh, do you really think things would be so amazing if the women were in charge? Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

It would be like this.

[Bozema St. John]

That's true all the time. Yes, that's right. That's right. And then we could also wear skorts and midriff showing suits.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know what I'm saying? You know, because we'd be in charge.

[Sophia Bush]

You look good.

[Bozema St. John]

Thank you. I know. Granny Bear, tell somebody. Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Okay, guys, I have to say, I'm so excited to be back here with all of you. I do feel like women gathering is very important in healing right now. So thank you for having us. Thank you for coming. And I have to say, I met this amazing woman almost 10 years ago.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my God.

[Sophia Bush]

We were at a conference. Shocker for anyone who knows me. You know, I love a nerd event. And I was so struck by, like, one of the most powerful women in business also just being so cool. We, like, suddenly there was dinner, there were drinks, things were happening. We were talking about our lives, and I was like, aren't you, like, in charge of Netflix? Aren't you? I feel like you're really busy, and you. You manage to do so much, whether it's business, being the most amazing mom. I cannot believe your daughter's taller than me now. This is really weird. Everything you do, you do with such heart. And you manage to make people feel like they are the center of your attention, and your attention is wanted by everyone. So how'd you do it? Give us the inside baseball, please.

[Bozema St. John]

Very nice of you. And also, I can't believe it's been 10 years. Wow, that's crazy.

[Sophia Bush]

Who would have known since we're only 25, that's true.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. We haven't aged a day. But you know what? I think at the center of it, I really love people. And I know that probably sounds corny and maybe, but I love people. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm an extrovert. I don't do well just going into a room and then walking around and saying hi to everybody. That's not me. But I am deeply curious about people. It's like I am that person that will be sitting in the airport and ear hustling about somebody else's conversation. Now, you know, I'm not calling eavesdropping, I'm just calling ear hustling. You know what I'm saying? But I'm just curious. And I think for me, it's part of why I do the work that I do, because as a marketer and as a business person, I have to deeply understand what's happening in culture, what people are thinking about, what they love, what they like, in order to do my job well. And that has also gone into, like, my personal life, because I. I deeply want to understand people's stories and why they tick the way they tick. And so, yes, when I met you, I'm like, ooh, tell me more, Sophia. You know, and I'm paying attention and I'm engaged, and I want to know you more. And so I think for me, it's like. And for all of us, I think if we led from a place of curiosity, it's not just about, like, women making the world better, but if we led from a place of curiosity, the world would be better because we would want to know about other people. We wouldn't make assumptions about their belief systems or how they behave or their rationale. We would actually ask and then connect because we probably have some commonalities once we understand what people's differences are, which.

[Sophia Bush]

I think is especially important these days. You know, the Internet is such a gift in terms of connection, but the more it's algorithmically programmed, the more you're only met with what you already think, Right?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So the ability to be curious about people, where they come from, how they live, what's important to them, I think is something we need.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Now, before we jump into all the amazing things you're doing, I love on the show to go backwards with people because, like, everyone knows her resume, Right. Anyone I get to interview, People usually know what you have going on now. But I like to ask this question, and I'm really curious for you, especially because you moved around so much as a Kid, if you could like fold space, time.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And we could hang out with Bose as a 10 year old girl up here on the stage with us. Paint me a picture of her life.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And ponder if you would see the woman you are today in her.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Oh, that's very interesting. Okay, so at 10, at 10 we were living in Kenya, in Nairobi. My parents are Ghanaian and we moved around a lot because my dad loves to do that. He's a nomad and an academic and you know, wants to ponder all kind of world and human politics. But at 10, I was already very curious about the world and people and because for anyone who has ever, you know, as a child, maybe even as an adult, where you're plucked from one place that you're very familiar with and put in another place, all you want to do is fit in, you know, all you want to do is get along. Now, I recognize that most people think Africa is just like one country. However, there are many countries in it and those countries have lots of different types of cultures and belief systems. And so for me it was very disjointing because at 10. And you remember what you were like at 10, right? I mean, I don't know, I was gangly and not really. I didn't know what was going on, you know, but the things that I needed to do in order to connect with my classmates and even just a larger culture was back to the curiosity of things, you know, understanding. It's like, well, what do people love? What were they thinking? You know, it's like, what was the most popular music? Like, what were the dance steps? You know, the stuff that is like, makes culture but then makes you also connect with people. And it was even more pronounced. I'll jump ahead two years because at 12 we immigrated from Ghana to Colorado Springs, Colorado and that was an even bigger jump. And so like, for me, it's like, look, I now would look back and I don't know that the girl then would recognize me now. But I am so thankful for the experiences at that age because it really does make me who I am. Like, I feel like look across cultures, across countries and language belief systems, that there's so much more commonality than we actually think there is.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, well, and when I think about your career, the massive companies that you've walked into one after another.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Each has a culture, each has a place. Like the ability to navigate culture shock and to listen and look for, you know, patterns with people that you learned as a kid probably served you incredibly well in your career.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, My gosh. Well, that's like the number one question I get when I talk about the different companies I've worked for. Right? Because it's like, mostly in the C suite, it's white men almost entirely.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, you don't say girl.

[Bozema St. John]

And then I walk in and it's very different. It's like one of these things is not like the other. But it's interesting to me because when I just said about when we were 10 or 12, you just wanted to fit in. You don't want to be different from anybody. But the real beauty of our unique experiences isn't the connection so that we can assimilate. It's not the connection so that you can just be like everybody else. Is the connection so that you can actually be your unique individual person and be accepted because people understand it. You don't. And so, yes, I walked into Uber when it was, like, on fire. And Travis Kalanick, the founder and CEO, got fired two days after I got there. And I'm sitting here as the Chief Brand officer, like, what the hell am I supposed to do now? And what are all these people? And. And they don't even believe what I have to say. And I had to bring my own experiences into it. And so the idea that we as individuals don't have power based on who we actually are is a lie. And I take it even back to, like, science, right? I've given this example many times, but I'm like, look, just because I'm a marketer and I wear short skirts does not mean I don't know science. All right? Now, physics, you understand matter. And matter can be anything. Can be this room. It can be a pool of water.

[Sophia Bush]

After my own heart.

[Bozema St. John]

I must say, matter is amazing. Okay, yes. So matter is made up of molecules. So in any situation, it's a bunch of molecules together that make a matter. You remove one molecule and the whole matter changes. You add another molecule and the whole matter changes. That is actual science. And so if we take this room, for instance, and we remove one person, we have now dynamically changed. And if you take that into the boardroom, I enter and the whole matter changes. It's like my experiences, my understanding. It's like me as a first generation American, as someone who speaks two languages, as a widow, as a mother of an amazing girl, you know, like, all those experiences are truly, truly important in changing the matter of the place that you are. And that's why even at any level in which you're at, whether you're at a company or you're in an organization or community, like, wherever you are, your molecule truly matters. And so show up as your full self, as the person who can impact the area and the situation. Because once you leave, your fingerprints should still be on it.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Well, and I think it's so important, especially now when we see a lot of frankly illogical attacks on diversity, on equity, on inclusion. It's like your experiences make a place better.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

The things you learned losing your husband give you insight into what people are experiencing. Just like the things that you've learned running companies, just like being a mom. The more diversity of experience that actually comes into a room, the richer the thing you build is.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And then you don't find, which I know you've heard the phrase, and. And I've heard the phrase because, you know, we were around for the birth of some of these big Internet companies. You hear CEOs and CTOs talk about how, oh, you know, they had to reverse engineer to fill in all these holes because when they were building the thing, they didn't know it was going to have to do. Fill in the blank.

[Bozema St. John]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

So the blanks are like. It's like craters and things fall through the cracks, and there would be less of them if more experiences, if more perspectives had been there from the beginning, not the other way around.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right.

[Sophia Bush]

So the lie that who you are needs to change, be smaller, is, you know, woke. Yeah, it's all upside down.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. Well, because like, we're trying to put definitions on just common sense, you know, I'm like, I just don't even understand how we're even still having this conversation, you know, because the truth of matter is that. Go back to the curiosity of things. You know, it's like if you don't have a good understanding of what somebody in a different situation from you is experiencing, then how can you actually make great decisions for the business or the company? Right. It's not possible. And my singular experience is not enough. And so therefore, I do need to surround myself with people who have different ways of being, you know, who have different belief systems. And the challenge that I find is that somehow we have been lied to. To think that if somebody has a different opinion, different belief system, that you must convert them to your own belief. And that is the only way to move forward. It is not. It's like, look, the whole world is made up of so many interesting people. It really comes down to the love of people and the love of curiosity. It's like, if you really want to get to know Somebody better. It's like, look, they can have different belief systems than you and you can still respect them and they can respect you. And so the idea of DEI or any of these other reverse engineering tactics, I'm like, that's all stupid because it's just common sense and it's the way that we should be as human beings. Like, forget all the math that you need to do in order to check the boxes for the company. It's like, what are you doing as a human? And again, sometimes we want to point at leadership and say, oh, well, they have created this or they have not done that, or they need to create a policy. And I'm always like, but what are you doing? What are you doing in your seat from where you are, you know, you're not powerless. And so if your belief system doesn't change and you don't behave in the way in which is common sense, then we can't expect leadership to have any difference. So I don't care what the administration is doing at this point in time. Well, I do care, but at the same time, yeah, I think that we have so much power and for some reason we don't believe that we do. And it's not about necessarily thinking like, oh, what can one person do to change the world? It's like, no, but what are you doing in your neighborhood, you know, what are you doing in the school where your kids go? What are you doing in the boardroom that you're in? What are you doing in the cubicle next to you that, you know, can you can actually connect with somebody? So I don't think that we're powerless. And I don't believe that whatever policies are meted down about DEI or any other kind of diverse conversation that we should then abandon ship and think that, like, we need to all just stick in our individual roles and only the people who agree with us, who are the ones who are right, that cannot be the case.

[Sophia Bush]

You're going to get to the end of the day no matter what. Yes, the time is going to pass no matter what. So, yes, we will hold power to account. But also what have you done in your world, in your world at the end of your day?

[Bozema St. John]

That's correct.

[Sophia Bush]

Because I think we forget that it's important to pay attention to the big picture, but it's also important to remember you can affect what's around you in every moment of your life.

[Bozema St. John]

That's correct. Like, you know what sometimes people say, like, oh, well, you know what? Like, I will affect change once I get into the C suite or once I get into the corner office and I have power and I'm like, let me tell you a big secret. Is everybody ready for this one? However you're behaving now is how you behave when you're in the C suite. And it gets harder, not easier, because then the spotlight is really on and people are staring at you and the decisions you make, they will talk about, they'll be angry about. And if you don't have the practice and it's really practice of again and again and again making these choices and, you know, fighting for what is right, then you will not make it. When you're in the C Suite, you'll go along and you'll just do the thing that everybody else tells you to do and you won't affect change. And so that's why I strongly advocate that we stop looking at leadership for the answers. You know, that for us, we are, we truly do have the power. And it really is about the individual, the mano a mano conversation that we're having, which actually ends up changing the entire policy.

[Sophia Bush]

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[Bozema St. John]

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[Sophia Bush]

Well, what I like about what you're talking about, because it's really my two favorite things. You're talking about the emotional, the empathetic, and you're talking about science. And the way I think about it is, like, we have to manifest scientifically. Like, if we want to put attention on what we would like to be true in our lives, then we have to be the leaders we don't think we have right now. We have to be the friends we wish we'd had when we had gone through a loss.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

We have to be the neighbors that you would want to have in a disaster. I mean, shout out to every single person here who is also an Angeleno like us, because watching the way that our city showed up in January when, you know, from the west side to the east side, there was such a horrible devastation, I was like, listen, one of the things I love about LA is no matter how pissed people in this neighborhood might be about the new restaurant in that neighborhood, the minute something goes down, everybody's team la, right?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think it was a really important reminder for me at the top of the year, knowing what was happening, what was set to begin on Inauguration Day, I was like, oh, right, look what our communities can do irrespective of this other mess. And I think it's why everyone who knows you, everyone who follows you online, wants to be in your energy, because you remind people how powerful they are. Look, every day, every day.

[Bozema St. John]

I strongly believe that. It's like, you know what? I remember getting on a zoom. A meeting the day after inauguration. No, actually, I'm sorry, it wasn't the day after inauguration. It was the day after the election. The results had come in, of course, and lots of people took the day off. Right. But I was in a meeting, I tell you something. And this is not like, I don't mean anything by it, besides telling you the truth, which is that I was actually very energized. You know, Like, I woke up that morning, I was like, oh, I see. It's my turn. I've got to do something. You know what I mean? Look, I came into meetings that day, and the meetings I was in were about building my business, right? So the business I've created is a hair company, hair and beauty company. It's called Eve by Bose. It's centered on black women and women of color for hair extensions and hair care. And the reason why I felt so drawn to it was that one I Love hair. Okay. I love bundles. Okay, what are we even doing? But it's incredible to me that 80% of the consumer base of hair extensions are black women or women of color. But they're not centered in the conversation. The innovation is not about them. The texture is not about them. You can go on Google or wherever else and see 14 million videos of how to manipulate the hair extensions so they match women of color or black women's textures. And I was like, well, why do we have to do that? First of all, I'm sick and tired of doing it. And so I went to China. Yes, by myself, me, six foot tall and black, to the largest hair show in the world in Guangzhou. Day one, I made a mistake. I didn't have an interpreter. That was a problem. Day two, I learned. I came with an interpreter so I could get the information. Because the things I was asking were like, why is the texture like this? Why do lace colors only come in white? Why are they not brown? Why are they not different shades? You see Fenty out here, they're killing the game. Forty Shades on here. What are we doing? And the answers were not that difficult. You know, it was a choice that people were making. They were like, oh, no, it's possible. We just don't do it because nobody really asked us to do it. And I was like, oh, okay. So let me gather all the information. I'm simplifying a lot of things, but it took many months and almost 18 months to build. But I eventually built a factory in Ghana where I could then manufacture the product myself with black women and women of color at the center of it. And so the day after inauguration, when I was sitting there and everybody else was like, oh, no, woe is me. What are we going to do? I was like, we got to move. We have to motivate. We have to take the power. Look, I don't care who's sitting in that house. Like, we have to do it. And so why would I, why would I cry? Why would I mourn when I have the power to do something? And I am still energized. So every time I see a new stupid ass headline, oh, Lord have mercy. I mean, it annoys me for like three seconds. And then it motivates me to move because what are we gonna do? You know, we're gonna sit around and wait four years before we do something about this? No, we gotta motivate. And so for me, it's like, look, I'm taking every opportunity in every room I'm in as the molecule that changes matter to make things better for me and for my community.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. And it. Right. Come on.

[Bozema St. John]

Hey, you girl.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like, I feel like we're all going to need. And ironically, we'll have it. It'll be on the podcast. I'm like, I need a recording of this just to be in my. In my little airpod when I'm having a bad day. Just walk around getting a Bose pep talk in the house. You. You. You said something a while back that I love so much. You said you are never intimidated in spaces that, you know, other people might not always think you should be.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, girl. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And when you talk about power, when you talk about motivation, when you talk about being inspired to fix, all of it is really. It feels to me like forward motion. And so I want to know, is that innate for you, or do you think that's something you've learned through your career? Because as I mentioned earlier, the resume is unbelievable. From, you know, Apple Music to Uber to Netflix. When you think back on some of the first days in some of those offices.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

How do you walk in with this kind of confidence?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Or is it something you learned in one of those places and you've taken with you?

[Bozema St. John]

There's a combination of things. Right. Again, just back to the science of it all. And this time we'll do math. Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

So each of us that are sitting here, it took two sets of DNA in order to create us. Right. You go back, like, 12 generations, and that's 4,000 people that it took for you individual to sit here. And so when I walk into a room, I'm like, oh, there's 4,000 people coming with me. You know what I mean? That, like, my individual journey is as important as anyone else's. And I realize that that might sound trite and it might sound like, oh, she's just talking. But it's like, if you actually believe that, if you truly put it into your spirit, there is no room you walk into and feel like an imposter. There's no table you sit at and think, I don't belong here, because you do. Why in the hell would you be there? I also believe in my own destiny. You know, I believe that the steps I take are meant to be. And the thing is that I also have this belief about destiny, which is like, it's not just written and then it happens. It's like your forward motion, your steps are actually what then create it and make it come true. And so when I'm sitting at a table, I am Meant to be there. All the things in my life have led me to that moment. And so I have to show up in the fullness of myself with all the experiences I have with my ideas, with my opinions. And so part of it is innate in that I understand math. And then I'm like, okay, it took a lot of people for me to get here and all these experiences for me to be in this room. So I'm going to. I'm actually going to show up, like, in the fullness of myself and then through experience. It has really been about urgency for me, you know, so I said before that I'm a widow. My husband died of cancer in 2013, so we're coming up on 12 years, which is just absolutely incredible to me. He died right before his 44th birthday. And one of the most. There's a lot to say about that experience. But one of the most life changing moments was at his funeral when my daughter and I are standing in the receiving line. You know, people are filing out of the church and shaking our hands and giving us hugs. And people kept saying over and over and over, they were like, oh, I'm so sorry. He died so young. There was so much left to do. And I remember feeling burdened by that thought and afraid of that and being like, well, what happens? It was like a fear that was in my spirit. Like, oh, my gosh, like, what if I'm not here long enough to do the things I'm supposed to do? What if I'm not here long enough to fulfill my destiny? Like, I'm afraid. But what changed for me was the thought of urgency. And urgency isn't necessarily about speed. You know, I realized that we're like, oh, we got something. We must move fast. You know, it's not about speed. Urgency is about intention. You know, it's about moving with intention.

[Sophia Bush]

Passion.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. And saying that, like, this is what I want to do right now and. And therefore nothing's going to stop me from doing it. That is urgent. And for me, it's like, in my life, the way that I've been able to overcome that very crippling fear of leaving too soon is that I want my entire life to feel as big as possible. In my book, in the Epitaph, I have a quote by Diane Ackerman and I'll paraphrase it, I won't say it exactly, but it says, I want to get to the end of my life and not just have lived the length of it, but to have lived the width of it, which is so Beautiful. You know, the thought that, like, you're going to live as wide as possible, and I challenge all of us to do that. It's like, what is it that you're dreaming of that you're thinking of even in the small decisions that you make every single day that are true to you, that you're not just living for the expectation of other people? I don't care if it's your mama, okay? It's like, are you living for the expectation of your own life? Because regardless of what time I go, I want people to be like, God damn, she lived a big life. Golly, look at what that girl did.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know what I mean? And if I can do that, and if I can live urgently with the purpose of trying to accomplish the things that I want to accomplish in my life, girl, then there's no room I walk into without feeling like I belong there. And I'm there to get what I'm supposed to get.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that. I love that. Right. For all of our friends out here, if you have not read the book, it is so beautiful. It is called the Urgent Life, My story of love, Loss and survival. And I was lucky enough a few years ago to moderate one of the book talks on it and had to keep myself from crying the whole way through. So that's fine. You've been so bold, not only with joy and power, but with reality, with pain, with sharing that story of loss, with talking about what it's like to rebuild. And you know, you mentioned you're coming up on 12 years.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Your daughter is here again, taller than me. It's fine. Doesn't make me feel old at all, ma'.

Am.

How do you think about it? You know, you two are so beautifully close. You, mom, at the level that you. Cmo.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, and I admire it so much. And while I hate that women are so often asked, like, how do you balance it all? Because they never ask the men. I don't want to know that. What I want to know is with a 16 year old now, like, what are some of the best lessons from career and motherhood combined?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, will you give us the cheat codes?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, I will.

[Sophia Bush]

I want a mom like you, mom.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, look, okay, so this where we all sit up and then we get a little closer, right? Because I'm going to tell you something and sometimes I get in trouble for saying it, but I'm going to tell you that you are the center of your life. And I recognize that that sounds like a simple sentence, but if you actually behave that way, it will dynamically change your life. Meaning that you are the center of your life. Now Lael, my daughter will tell you that when I ask her or if somebody asks me who's the most important person in your life? And people expect that because I'm a mother, I'm gonna be like, oh my daughter, no, I am the most important person in my life. And I realized that that's like, it sounds selfish. Well, okay, fine. Because who else am I supposed to be filled with but myself? The truth of the matter is that I've said this in another setting and it got a lot of attention because I reminded people that a lot of us, many of us here, you don't have to identify yourself, but many of us here are walking around consequences of somebody's unfulfilled dreams. We're walking around with burdens of feeling like I've got to do this because this person wasn't able to do it or this person sacrificed so that I could sit here. And therefore you can't live your own life, you can't center yourself. But it is a deeply life changing perspective to say, I'm at the center and I'm going to do the things I promise you. Lael is a much more fulfilled human because I've centered myself because I am happy in my life, because I'm going after the things I want to go after because I'm ambitious. And the thing is that she comes along because I respect her. And even as early as 4 years old when we would have the conversation about like, okay, mommy has to go to Cupertino, which we live here in la and so I take a flight to go to work and then come back. Therefore sometimes I'd miss the parent teacher conferences or I'd miss the basketball game she played or I'd miss the practice. But she knows that if she says to me, look, this is really important to me and I need you to be there, I will be there. But it doesn't stop me from being completely ambitious in what I do. And so my hope is that as she grows and as all of us develop, that you center yourself in your life because you'll be a much more fulfilled, filled person. And therefore you can be a blessing not just to your children, to the community that you're in, into the boardrooms that you're in because you'll have the confidence of knowing that I'm here because I want to be better, I want to be great. And if you center yourself, truly it is a revolutionary act and so we should do that more often.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

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[Bozema St. John]

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[Sophia Bush]

One of the things I think is shifting most for our generation in particular is that we understand if we don't write our own permission slips, nobody else is gonna do it for us. And when you become, you know, a parent, a partner, a stepparent, whatever version it is, if they don't see you write a permission slip for yourself, how are they supposed to learn to do it for themselves?

[Bozema St. John]

That's what I'm saying. I'm like, look, my hope is that Lael walks into every room that she's in and knows that she's the most important person. Now look, that doesn't mean necessarily that you're walking around arrogant and dismissing everybody's thought, but the idea that you walk in self confidently is a game changer. Because how many of us have also been the victim of somebody's insecurity? Sis, I see you. Okay? It's like everybody in here has. And imagine if that person had been confident about their own presence, had been satisfied in what they're doing in their life, that they would not have treated you the way that you're treated. And so for me it's like, look, I'm passing on this belief system not because I want to raise an asshole, but because I want to make sure that she is the most fulfilled person she can be so the world can see her for the fullness of herself and so that she can be in every room and be dynamic in it and change it.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, that's the human I want to raise.

[Sophia Bush]

And one of the things I love for us too, the lessons I learned from the women in my life, watching them be incredible parents, watching them do this work differently than any of our parents had the tools to do, is not only do I get to see you parent well, but I watch you reparent yourselves. I get re parented by watching the women in my life parent well heal. You know, I realize, oh, I don't need to carry this thing that somebody put in my backpack when I was a kid that I never went in and dumped in the garbage. Like, I'm gonna put this down. Whose even is this? And so I think there's a really, there's a really special moment that can happen for them, the ones who come after us. But it goes the other way and it kind of heals us in the versions of us before today as well. And it's. Those are the conversations I want to Be having with badass women that are parents that I know. I'm like, please stop asking her how she schedules her day and ask her, like, how she's putting.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, but that's the whole point, is that, like, if you are centered in your life and therefore fulfilled, balance doesn't become a question. You don't start to wonder like, oh, I should do this more or do this less, or, how am I going to accomplish this, and how am I going to make sure this person feels comfortable? It's like the balance comes because you've censored yourself, and therefore, you know your priorities and you're going to act on those. And therefore, you're happier. You don't. So when people ask, oh, how do you do it all? I'm like, because I've censored myself and what I want to do. And so therefore, it's like, you have a to do list, right? Most of us do. And, girl, you know that sometimes you just don't do the things at the bottom. They just keep going to the next day and the next day and the next day because you don't want to do it.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, you ever put the easiest thing that you've already done at the top? So you can start by checking something off?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, here. Here's what I said. Here's. Here's the revolutionary thing I said. I said, just take it off the list. Don't do it. Why do you need to do it? If there is something so terrible that you keep putting it off, then you need to take it off your list. Actually take it off the list. Like, figure out another way for somebody else to do it. Like they say, get somebody else do it. You know what I mean? If you can do that, it changes your life dynamically because then you're excited about the things. Like, my list of things that I have to do today are all things I actually want to do. And that's how I balance, because I'm excited about doing that. You know, when you don't want to do something, it takes you forever to do it. You know, I'm a natural procrastinator. Oh, man, I'll be the one. I won't even look.

[Sophia Bush]

Our whole generation of undiagnosed women with adhd. Give me a break. Procrastination is my spiritual gift.

[Bozema St. John]

I tell you, I'm like.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, I have a deadline. Do you need me to come over and color coordinate your closet for you?

[Bozema St. John]

I will look. And first of all, we cannot get dressed in 15 minutes. Okay? So I Don't know why you're sitting on their couch knowing that you're supposed to leave in 20 and you're still sitting there. Okay. Because none of us can do it. So I know why we sit around and wait. But the truth of the matter is that when you're really excited about something, you don't even have to, like, think about it. You're. You want to do it, right? You want to get into it, you want to accomplish the thing. And so I'm like, look, if you have to do list, and there are things on there that have moved so many times that you don't even remember when you first put it on your list. Get rid of it. Like, it's really that simple. Find somebody else, do it. And that way you don't have to worry.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like the anxiety inducing cleanup that comes with closing all the open tabs on your computer.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

One day I was like, what if I just quit Safari? I'm not looking at. Anyway, they're just going to be gone and then I'm going to open my computer and go, oh, that looks nice.

[Bozema St. John]

Instead of, oh, there's 200 tabs, I just close Safari.

[Sophia Bush]

Click.

[Bozema St. John]

Now that might be the lesson from this whole conversation. Close Safari.

[Sophia Bush]

You have you.

[Bozema St. John]

That is the lesson today in every capacity.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm going to title the episode of this podcast. You have permission slip to close your tabs.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Close your tabs. That's what it is in every aspect of your life.

[Sophia Bush]

But in your life, you keep opening new, cool ones.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. And I mean ones I like.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. But you know, you, you ran every, every corporate world, then you took time to write your book.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And then in a move no one expected, you were like, yeah, I'll be a real housewife. I was like, what? I mean, and you're so good. But can I ask a question? And I don't mean this to be judgy. I just want to, like, say an observation.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, God.

[Sophia Bush]

Because genuinely, I was like, isn't that the show where, like, all the women yell at each other? Like, Bose is not a yeller. She is a cheerleader. She is like a teammate. I don't think I get it. So then I decided to tune in to watch you. And I was like, oh, she's changing the vibe of a whole industry. Is that a conscious goal for you?

[Bozema St. John]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, say more.

[Bozema St. John]

Tell us everything. Because again, it just goes back to the idea of being a molecule. Right. Matter exists. You're right. The understanding of what this franchise and how these women Behave is a known matter. But me coming in, I'm my own molecule. I do not have to subscribe to the ways in which the matter has been because I'm there. I am that important. And I wish all of us would believe that of ourselves. And so for me, as I contemplated what I wanted to do next and how this opportunity could be beneficial to me, and as well as being able to put out a new idea or a new concept of how women can be, I was like, oh, hell yeah. Because where are the ones who are self made, who get up and go to work, who build something themselves? Where are the ones who have conflict but understand how to resolve them as adults and not yell and scream and be ridiculous? We're the ones who support each other through the really hard times. Where's the truth about the mess of our lives? Where it's like, look, not everything is tied up in a boat. And I recognize that, yes, my resume looks the way it looks and people know me for what I've done in the business world, but you don't know what I'm like at home. And so why not open the door so that you can see a different way of being? And so for me, I feel like there's opportunity for women who have the same type of ideal, not necessarily living the same life, not necessarily even having the same politics or the same religion or the same belief systems, but that we can have a more elevated and sophisticated way of entertaining each other by actually showing what this kind of elevated experience looks like. And the last thing I'll say about that, how many of you think Sophia would make a great housewife, right? I mean, totally makes sense. I wrote her an email or a text message in April. I'm telling all your business. I wrote her a text message in April. I was like, hey, I need you to ask you a controversial question. She knew what I was going to ask her. She never responded until yesterday when she was like, oh, how did I miss this text message in April telling you about housewives? That's what I was telling you I miss.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, to be clear, first of all, I am a terrible texter. So I go to text her and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so excited I get to see you tomorrow. I can't wait. And then I go, controversial question, April. And then I'm like, wow, we really talk more in group chats than we do any other way, clearly. And me, I'm like, girl, what's the controversial question? I love a controversial question. She was like, I was trying to.

[Danielle]

Get you on the show.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. Because I'm just like, look, we need more women who are self possessed, who enjoy their relationships with other women, who understand conflict and drama not because they want to put on a spectacle, but because that's just what life is and are unafraid to talk about the hard stuff, are unafraid to show the warts in all of their lives. Because we are all mirroring what we see.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, and the interesting thing I'm realizing watching your journey there is what you're doing is you're modeling a healthier way.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And, like, isn't that what we're all trying to do all day anyway? Get through the time that passes and like it?

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

I just want to like my life. Don't you?

[Bozema St. John]

That's the whole point. But I also think that, like, having a platform where we show the relationships between women and the different ways that the relationships are is really important. I actually think, like, showing the more healthy way of being is really important. And that's no shade to anybody who's come before. I just think it's time for revolution.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that. And that show has led to your next show.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, yes, girl.

[Sophia Bush]

You guys, this woman just got a casual call from Jimmy Fallon. Please tell the people what's coming. I am so excited about this.

[Bozema St. John]

So now here's what's. Now look at God. I'm going to tell you something. Okay? So the idea of, like, walking in your purpose and your destiny, regardless of what other people think of you, is actually my testimony, because you will not believe, or you probably will believe, the number of people who are like, why would you go on this show Housewives when you have such an amazing career, you are a corporate baddie, you're in the hall of fame. Like, why would you do that? You ruin your reputation. And I was like, I have an idea. I'm gonna go anyway. And I went. And in the. Literally the first episode, I show up in my glorious gown, okay. Because a girl's got a sleigh. All right? And I run through my resume because I wanted them to all know who they were dealing with, you know what I'm saying? And assert my power. And what I didn't know is that Jimmy Fallon and his wife Nancy were watching the show and our fans. And Jimmy had sold an idea to NBC for a reality competition that centered marketing. So think about, like, Shark Tank or Project Runway, but for marketing people. And he had interviewed a bunch of CMOs who had great resumes, but not the personality they were Boring. That's okay. And then he saw me on Housewives, and I ran down my resume, and he was like, oh, my God, I found her. And so his people called my people. And then we got on the phone, and within 10 minutes, we had agreed that we were going to film a new show together. It's called On Brand. It launches in September, premieres on NBC. And it's a magical show because I love the idea that beautiful creative ideas can come from anywhere. You know, there are contestants on the show who are. There's one who's, like, a real estate agent. There's one who's a swim instructor. There's one who's a marketing professor. Like, so he actually academically understands the business. But it's wonderful because every week a new brand comes, gives a brief, and then the contestants have to come up with creative ideas. And what's amazing is that, like, I cannot tell you the number of people that when, you know, I worked at Uber, I worked at Pepsi, I worked at Apple, would, like, you know, tag me in a comment or, like, ping me, or God forbid, I was in an airport, somebody recognized me and would be like, oh, I have an idea for a new soda. I have an idea for a new way for a new tech idea. I have a new idea for an Apple product. And I'm like, okay, fantastic. Now I have a show, and people can do that, and it's actually entertaining. And so for me, it's an exciting new chapter in my life. And to be able to do that and marry my marketing expertise with an entertaining show and Jimmy Fallon is incredible. I mean, just salt of the earth guy, sweetest human. Oh, an amazing human being who really, really cares and is excited about life and excited about ideas. And so it was really a pleasure to be with him.

[Sophia Bush]

Obviously, we get to the show in September, but that feels long. I want to know, and maybe it's a crazy question to ask, but I know there's so many business owners in this audience. Is there a piece of marketing advice or brand advice.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

That you think is the most important thing for a business owner to know?

[Bozema St. John]

Absolutely. Okay, again, lean in, everybody. All right, we're going to talk about this because it is a hard thing to do, and it's a hard thing to believe, which is that most of us create because we see a need in the market and we want to fill the space. Right. The challenge is that we're too wide, you know, so the idea that marketing or the thing that you've created needs to apply to everyone is A lie, because they're a bullseye. And so you need a bullseye target, secondary target, tertiary target. Right now, the bullseye is where all the magic is. And guess what? It's actually you. So I recognize that we make something and we're like, oh, but I want to get to the widest audience possible. No, the idea is that they actually need to fall in love. And so consider that your product, your idea is a human, and that human is based on you. And get the people to fall in love with that. That's how you actually make the change. And so in every company I've been in, whether it has been as big as Uber or even in creating Eve by Bows, it's like the detail of what I'm doing has me in it. The ideas are born from this brain, from this heart, from these experiences. And so the one piece of marketing advice I'll give you is that you need to make your target small and it needs to be centered on you.

[Sophia Bush]

Thank you.

[Bozema St. John]

You're welcome. It's like we're free marketing advice class.

[Sophia Bush]

Exactly. I'm like, welcome to my lectures here.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. We are coming up on time.

[Bozema St. John]

Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

I want to know. I can't imagine you adding anything else to the list, but I have a feeling you will when you look out at the rest of your summer, the rest of your 2025. When you think about what more you want.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Or what you're looking forward to.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

What's the. What's the center? That feels like your work in progress.

[Bozema St. John]

Mmm. Okay, so here's the thing. Oftentimes people ask me like, you know, who I'm inspired by, and they think it's gonna be an answer like, my mother or something like that. And I love my mom, but she's not it. I'm it. The 80 year old version of me is who I'm inspired by. The woman who's gonna be sitting there and being like, child, let me tell you about this story. Let me tell you what I did. That's the person I'm working for, the person that I am trying to impress. Because everything that I do has to have that level of excitement. And so I don't have a five year plan or a ten year plan. You know, people always say, like, oh, well, you've got to make a plan to hit, you know, the target. The truth of matter is that it is more ethereal than that. You know, this existence that we have is not built on the sequential order of how we think the universe exists. It is more magical than that. And so you have to open yourself up to the possibilities of what is going to come for you, and you have to move boldly in that direction. And so 10 years ago, when I met you, could I have imagined that I'd be a real housewife and then I'd have a show with Jimmy Fallon? Absolutely not. But the truth is that I didn't have a 10 year plan which told me, okay, by that time, you need to be CEO of this company and blah, blah, blah, blah. I left myself open to the possibilities. I'm in such a better place than what I would have imagined. And I also, this is when I get frou frou. But, you know, I believe in the power of God, you know, and I believe that the destiny that I have is written in a way that is unimaginable to me. So why would I think that I could orchestrate it? My job is to walk by faith, and that's what I do every single day. So people look on my resume or say, oh, my gosh, you do such big things. Or how do these amazing opportunities come? And I'm like, because I'm walking by faith. I'm walking the direction. And I am not encumbered by a plan that I have because my imagination is way too small for that.

[Sophia Bush]

Right. You always hear people talk about, oh, beyond your wildest dreams.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And someone said to me years ago, make sure your wildest dreams aren't a box you put yourself in that look.

[Bozema St. John]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

Look where we are today.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm saying I love you.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm so happy to know you. I love you. Thank you for coming and inspiring.

[Bozema St. John]

Thank you. This is so great. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it and I wish you all a very urgent life. If that's the one thing that you can take away from this is center yourself in your life. Make sure you are urgent about the things that you're doing and make sure that you're doing it for you and not the expectation of anyone else. God bless you.

[Sophia Bush]

Thank you, Bose.

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[Bozema St. John]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Bozema St. John]

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[Danielle]

This is an I Heart podcast.