Work in Progress: Dylan Mulvaney

Summary

Work in Progress: Dylan Mulvaney

Podcast: Work in Progress with Sophia Bush
Host: Sophia Bush
Guest: Dylan Mulvaney
Release Date: March 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this heartfelt and engaging episode of Work in Progress with Sophia Bush, Sophia welcomes comedian, storyteller, and vibrant personality Dylan Mulvaney to discuss her newly released book, "Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer." Sophia sets the stage by highlighting the essence of Dylan’s book, which combines humor, personal anecdotes, and profound reflections on her journey before and after her transition.

Sophia Bush [00:30]: "In this book, Dylan pulls back the curtain on her life from the it girl online lifestyle to witty and intimate reflections of her journey, both pre and post transition... all of it."

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Behind the Scenes: Elton John AIDS Foundation Academy Awards Fundraiser

The conversation kicks off with Dylan and Sophia reminiscing about their recent experience at the prestigious Elton John AIDS Foundation Academy Awards fundraiser. They share their excitement and the whirlwind of emotions felt during the event.

Dylan Mulvaney [02:30]: "I think this was my third one. I'm also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts lately where like, this comes out in five months, but this one will actually come out fairly soon."

Sophia Bush [04:06]: "It was a lot."

They recount interactions with notable personalities, including Hunter Doohan and Michaela J. Rodriguez, emphasizing the supportive and joyous atmosphere of the evening.

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Creative Pursuits and Personal Growth

Dylan delves into her creative endeavors, discussing her ventures into comedy, writing, and participating in the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. She reveals how her passion for storytelling evolved into writing her book, initially envisioned as a lighthearted collection of diary entries.

Dylan Mulvaney [13:19]: "I wanted to write the book... it ended up being this thing that was deeply healing for me."

Sophia and Dylan explore the challenges of maintaining creativity while managing personal growth and the pressures of public life. They touch upon the importance of being mission-aligned and the struggle to balance multiple projects without burning out.

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Navigating Identity and Transition

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Dylan's journey with her gender identity and transition. She shares intimate details about the emotional and mental challenges she faced, including dealing with transphobia and finding her true self amidst public scrutiny.

Dylan Mulvaney [32:56]: "I'm either going to believe this, what they're saying about myself, and I'm going to take it on as part of me, or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is not true about myself because I know who I am."

Sophia comments on the impact of external opinions and the internal struggle that comes with being a public figure. The conversation underscores the resilience required to stay true to oneself in the face of criticism and misunderstanding.

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Coping with Public Scrutiny and Mental Health

Sophia and Dylan discuss the toll that public life takes on mental health, especially for transgender individuals. They highlight Dylan's experiences with online harassment, media portrayal, and the importance of supportive relationships.

Sophia Bush [32:55]: "Reading your words when you talked about it took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels."

Dylan emphasizes the necessity of distancing oneself from negative comments and reinforcing self-identity to combat the mental and emotional noise generated by external negativity.

Dylan Mulvaney [33:17]: "I had to be very clear about who I was."

---

The Power of Support Systems

The episode beautifully illustrates the significance of strong support systems. Dylan credits her close friends, like Lily, her life coach Mori, and Alok, for providing unwavering support and helping her navigate the complexities of public life and personal growth.

Sophia Bush [50:19]: "I have actually done so much by myself for so long. I tend to show up for other people, but I very rarely ask people to show up for me."

Dylan echoes this sentiment, recognizing the importance of leaning on trusted individuals to maintain mental well-being and personal stability.

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Future Aspirations and Hope

Looking ahead, Dylan shares her aspirations of becoming a Broadway diva and her commitment to telling stories that bring joy and provoke thought. She discusses her book's role in healing and empowering herself, as well as its potential impact on readers.

Dylan Mulvaney [24:15]: "I want to be a Broadway diva who gets to tell stories... I want to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things, like through transness and identity."

Sophia and Dylan explore the concept of hope versus optimism, with Dylan articulating a balanced perspective that acknowledges the realities while maintaining hope for positive outcomes.

Dylan Mulvaney [63:00]: "It's a balance of realism versus hope... I have a plan B, C, and D that can still get me through and that I can still live a full life, hopefully."

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Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of authenticity, community, and self-acceptance. Sophia and Dylan emphasize that embracing one's true self and fostering supportive relationships are crucial for personal growth and happiness.

Sophia Bush [43:44]: "It's important to remind myself that it's also not my real life and be in my life as much as I can."

Dylan Mulvaney [46:09]: "You have that arsenal of incredible humans to tap into, you should use it."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sophia Bush [00:30]: "In this book, Dylan pulls back the curtain on her life from the it girl online lifestyle to witty and intimate reflections of her journey, both pre and post transition... all of it."

• Dylan Mulvaney [13:19]: "I wanted to write the book... it ended up being this thing that was deeply healing for me."

• Dylan Mulvaney [32:56]: "I'm either going to believe this, what they're saying about myself, and I'm going to take it on as part of me, or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is not true about myself because I know who I am."

• Sophia Bush [32:55]: "Reading your words when you talked about it took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels."

• Dylan Mulvaney [63:00]: "It's a balance of realism versus hope... I have a plan B, C, and D that can still get me through and that I can still live a full life, hopefully."

---

Conclusion

This episode of Work in Progress with Sophia Bush offers an intimate glimpse into Dylan Mulvaney's life, her creative journey, and the resilience required to thrive in the public eye as a transgender woman. Through candid conversations and shared experiences, Sophia and Dylan provide listeners with inspiration, hope, and a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding identity and personal growth.

Transcript

[T Mobile]

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[Sophia Bush]

Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. I am so excited to sit down with one of my favorite personalities. Comedians, storytellers, girlies. Today we are joined by Dylan Mulvaney. She is here to talk about her new book, Paper Doll Notes from a Late Bloomer. In this book, Dylan pulls back the curtain on her life from the it girl online lifestyle to witty and intimate reflections of her journey, both pre and post transition, family, school, memories, dealing with the Internet, theater manifesting, being a Broadway diva, all of it. D Today we are gonna dig into the emotional journey of identity. We're gonna laugh quite a bit about how ridiculous life can be, and we're gonna talk about why this book is a love letter to every single person who stands up for queer joy. Let's dive in with Dylan Mulvaney.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Hey. Hi. I'm so happy you're here, but. And it's funn. I feel we did just see each other two days ago. We did, but we didn't get enough airtime.

[Sophia Bush]

No. And that was also a bit of a whirlwind. It's such a great event.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes. Let's tell the people.

[Sophia Bush]

It was overwhelming.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Tell the people where we were.

[Sophia Bush]

So we were at the Elton John AIDS Foundation Giant Academy Awards fundraiser, amazing.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Party gala dinner, chaperone. Oh, my God. You've been to this before?

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

How many times?

[Sophia Bush]

Uh, three, maybe.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Okay. I think this was my third one. I'm also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts lately where like, they're like, this comes out in five months, but this one stupid will actually come out fairly soon. So we can, like, talk about it.

[Sophia Bush]

But that's because this is coming out.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Because of we're talking about my book and my book comes out next week and I'm so excited. I, I, I'm sending you the whole package that's gonna be coming with my Lush bath bomb and everything, but you.

[Sophia Bush]

Love a bath bomb.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm obsessed. Do you take baths?

[Sophia Bush]

I should.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I can already take this. ADHD is gonna be kicking in for both of us pretty soon.

[Sophia Bush]

It's hard for me to sit in a bath.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, yeah, I think that I like to bring all my activities, so I like a book. I like to memorize lines in the bath. I do a computer, but you can learn the hard way. I've lost, like, maybe three phones and one laptop in the bathtub.

[Sophia Bush]

Dropped.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Done.

[Sophia Bush]

But you're alive.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm here. Apple. That's the one thing that really got going is, like, if it goes in, you're not going down with it.

[Sophia Bush]

You survive.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. It's a glowing endorsement, really, but I.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Feel like my voice is kind of starting to give Sophia Bush a little bit. After our night out on Saturday, after.

[Sophia Bush]

Night, I turned into a pumpkin. And I don't know if it was the fact that I was wearing the biggest heels I've ever worn in my life or if life has just been so intense, you know, in the current horror times, that I'm emotionally exhausted. But once Chapel was done, it was like I ceased being plugged into the battery and I just. I shut down and I had to go to bed.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You left. I was gonna say I didn't see you, but that was what was crazy about. Then a whole new group of people came because there was the after party. To the party.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And so it was like a whole new. But we had been there for hours and hours, and so that. That was a lot. In a good way.

[Sophia Bush]

It was a lot.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And we were at the same table. We had some really cute people with us.

[Sophia Bush]

Cutie pictures.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Hunter Doohan.

[Sophia Bush]

So adorable.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Michaela J. Rodriguez.

[Sophia Bush]

An absolute queen.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, I love seeing her.

[Sophia Bush]

It's always so fun to see Bobby.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And you, were you with. Who's your co worker that you were with?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, that was my. My manager.

[Sophia Bush]

Your manager?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes. He's so cute and such. He's like my best friend and manager.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, he's so lovely. And then Ashlyn and I were there, and Renee, our sweet friend Renee Stubbs came with us. And, yeah, it was just a great night. We had a nice crew.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know, what did bother me was that I didn't feel like people were lively enough for Chapel Roan. I didn't see enough dancing, like people were in it. But I'm used to, like, thrusting my body for that H o t T o g o. There wasn't a ton of Room to dance.

[Sophia Bush]

There wasn't a lot of room. Every. I felt like we were doing very tiny.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, sad wine motions. But I will say, it felt like watching Queer History, like, wow, Them singing together.

[Sophia Bush]

It was incredible.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Unreal. And I was standing next to her dad for a while and it was like watching him kind of like take it in was really sweet.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. We talked a lot about it on Monday after, you know, we were all kind of recapping the night and watching the way Elton looked at her and watching the way she was looking at Elton. It felt. Yeah, like such a historic moment across these generations of queerness and activism and advocacy and. I don't know, it made me really emotional.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That was where the gays were. Like, we were in that room. And I saw Chapel in 2023 at the Wheel Turn in LA. And the only thing that I could compare it to was that scene in Rocketman where, like, everyone's doing the Crocodile Rock and everyone starts to float off the. You like, off their feet into the air. And that is how I felt at this concert of maybe 900 people watching Chapel. And then now seeing her do that. It kind of had that. She's now my Elton John. For so many people who have grew up with Elton John. And I just thought, oh, that was fun. I had a good time.

[Sophia Bush]

Me too. Did you like the party?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I liked the party. I got to see lots of friends. Um, and. But I. I went to a West Hollywood gay bar afterwards, which is. It's a rare occasion that I do that. Um, but you did it. I was in Taco Bell at the end of the night. Did you order food?

[Sophia Bush]

I was honestly so tired that I didn't even order late night tacos, which is rare for me.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Where would you order from?

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God. So there's so many good places in LA. We have tacos, 1986. We have guisados. We have cactus, which is really my.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I don't know any of that.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I just get Taco Bell. Isn't that so sad?

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I have to take you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. You're gonna take me.

[Sophia Bush]

We have a tour.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

We have a tour. And now we have a little time. A taco tour. Less events now.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I think that yesterday was. It was a bad hangover day for me. Today I feel alive. I feel like I want to be a little more selective about not going to too much stuff.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Where did I. I saw you again on. What was the other thing that I saw? Oh, Women of the Year.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Time was. Oh, my God. And that one was lavey, or, you know, the singer, the Levee Leve. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

She was wonderful.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

She did that song, Keep On Going with youh Crazy Dreams, like, to your. It was like, to your 12 year old self, I think. And I was like, I don't think my 12 year old self would have ever imagined being at this, like, Women of the Year for Time gala with, like, all these icons. Like, I was like. Kept flashing because I felt really tired. And I was like, oh, do I want to go to this? And I looked around, I was like, oh, my God, how lucky am I to be in this room with all these gals.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. It was so special.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's really cool.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think about that for you and what an amazing sort of connection to that song because, you know, we talked about this a little bit last time you came on the podcast.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It was basically a year ago. Yeah. I feel like I'm part of the pod family now.

[Sophia Bush]

You are, and I love it. But I, you know, I always think about how you would interact with your younger self. And one of the things that I think is so beautiful in the book is that you actually dedicated it to your oldest, best friend, Lily. Yes.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Hi, Lily.

[Sophia Bush]

And I. I loved watching you tell her that the book is dedicated to her.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, you. You wrote the Girl who Helped Show Me the Way. What. What does it feel like now to sort of look back at your younger self? You know, the girl that Levi sang to, the girl that you grew up with in Lily, a girl that she always recognized in you, even perhaps before you did. It must be so surreal from this place to look back at it.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I think that so little of what's happening right now feels like normal. And it still feels like I'm either living in a dream or a nightmare. And Lily is the one constant that when I'm around her, it reminds me of what life looked like before. Not only transition, but this industry and in this town. And having her here with me, going to these events, being my plus one, is like, it's a dream. We met when we were 10 doing high school Musical. She was in the basketball ensemble. I was Ryan. And she was pissed that she wasn't Sharpay. But I think that having that person that has known you longer than anyone and has loved you through all of the different chapters, I think it feels really good. Cause I feel like I'm still constantly meeting people, trying to, like, either, you know, convince them of what it is that I want to do or who I am, or what my identity should look like for them. Cause it's the way that I see myself. But for her, I don't have. There's no explanation necessary. Who is your Lily? Like, from back in the day?

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my gosh. I moved a lot as a kid and so I don't have so many people who stretch like way, way, way back. Probably back. I don't really have anybody before middle school. And there's four of us from my middle school and high school that are still really close. But my, like, my. My Lily is. Is my best friend Nia. You know, we've been at it for almost 20 years together.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And where'd you meet?

[Sophia Bush]

We met at a conference way back in the day. Before they were cool or like branded, you know, they didn't.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Our conference queen, Sophia Bush. Well, that is one thing I will say I was thinking about when. Cause you know, we talked about going to Paris together last year and. Oh, was that even. Maybe. Was that before we did the podcast or. I think it was after.

[Sophia Bush]

I think it was after.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But we. We had a really fun trip to Paris for a conference and a lovely man that worked at CAA was there and he's like, you know who always will show up, you know, when you ask her and when you. Her for something is Sophia Bush. And so like, you've been doing this for a long time in the best way. And like, you really are someone that people trust and also that like you, you come through for people in really big ways.

[Sophia Bush]

I think showing up is really important.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And it's certainly a love language for me. I know how meaningful it is when people do it for me. And I think, you know, the way Nia and I bonded and built our friendship out of that space. She cracked a joke. Like, why is the girl from TV here taking notes like a court stenographer? And I looked back at her and I said, I went to journalism school. My notes are very good. Do you need a copy? And she was like, yeah. And then we've been best friends ever since.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, my God.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think for us, we've always been really mission aligned. And it's weird to me when, when mission isn't part of, you know, someone's life or their ethos. And I think it's probably why so many of us find each other. Because, yes, you wanna be creative and tell stories and have joy, and you also wanna make the world around you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

A little kinder and we wanna have a reason. Like, even it drives me crazy if I'm doing like a Photo shoot. And I don't understand, like, who is this for? What is the. You know, it might just be a picture and I might look pretty, but, like, is there what else is go off of? And no matter what it is, I think I wanna figure out what is the reason behind something and why am I doing it? Why am I writing this book? Why did you make this podcast? There has to be something other than the surface behind it, even if it is just to bring a little joy or to make someone laugh. That can be enough in some cases.

[Sophia Bush]

But why did you wanna write the book?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I wanted to write the book. I think at first this book has become a lot of different things because I sold it really early on around days of girlhood, and I thought it was gonna be this fluffy little piece of fun for people to have on their coffee table about. With diary entries from my first year. And I grew up reading Chelsea Handler and all these really fun, you know, female comedian books. So I wanted to make people laugh and I wanted to be a little raunchy. And then once Beergate happened, I. I knew that it needed to be something very different. And so it ended up being this thing that was deeply healing for me. And I. Cause I still in some ways had this, like, bowling ball sitting on my chest, not being able to articulate what happened or how I felt about it. And I wanted people to know because I built my platform on telling people things. And I think this feels like a much safer medium than social media does right now for me. And I think it's something that I never thought I would get to write a book in my life. So it's, I think, probably the thing I'm most proud of now. And I'm scared because I love it. And I don't know yet how the world is going to interpret that, but. Would you ever write a book?

[Sophia Bush]

I've been dodging the question for about eight years.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And now you can't, because you're holding my hand.

[Sophia Bush]

Here we are. Yeah. People have approached me a few times about it, and I think I'm finally in a place where I'm ready to think about that. I think there was a time where it felt. When my team first came to me with the idea, at first it felt a little premature. And now I think I understand that feeling better because I understand so many things about myself better. But it's terrifying to think about.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I think if you just don't frame it as, like, a memoir, like, I always think of, like, yeah, come on.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, we're not 80.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

I can't write my memoirs now.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And that's what I really. Cause some people still classify this, like, as a memoir or so. I'm so scared to say memoir. Cause I feel like I'm from, like, Wisconsin, and I'm talking about this book that I wrote called. And it's not a memoir. It's a hard word to say. Can you say memoir? Memoir.

[Sophia Bush]

Memoir.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Okay, okay. We're settling on it.

[Sophia Bush]

It helps if you. If you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Memoir.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. If you try to sound a little bit like a phone sex operator. Memoir.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Memoir.

[Sophia Bush]

It comes out easier. Right?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, my God, that's a beautiful bag. Is that your purse?

[Sophia Bush]

It. I love you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And it will fit a memoir in.

[Sophia Bush]

That two babies with ADHD sat together for a podcast.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So I like the. I call it my, like, Quarter Life crisis book.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I think because it's very specific in the timeline, it's about my transition. It's about after Beergate. We do have some essays that flash back to my childhood, but not in a way that feels like this is everything that I have to offer from age 0 to 20. And that's all, you know, I could never revisit any of these topics. I wanted it to feel like Chelsea Handler did a lot of kind of essays early on that I really loved reading as a teenager because it felt like I didn't know that we were allowed to comment on our lives, you know, and it kind of also kind of Carrie Bradshaw in the way that she was writing about things so messily. And I haven't gotten to talk a lot about, like, sex or religion or things, you know, online that felt a lot more fun to put into a book.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

[T Mobile]

Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch. Now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com backslash keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days. Qualifying unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days. Device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Sophia Bush]

And I do think it's really important. I like the references you make. I love Chelsea's books. And to your point, one of the things I think we need More of is a little bit of permission to be messy. Humans are messy.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

My house right now, oh, it's a state. I also, like, I'm one of those people that, like, I will, like, have. If I'm like, I clean my entire place, it'll look amazing for about 15 minutes and then something happens and I don't know what it is, but it then looks almost worse than it did before I cleaned it. That's, I think, like, and I've seen a few. The reviews are starting to roll out and some of them are like, oh, you know, it can be trickier to find the timeline or it can, you know, what are we in a journal entry? Are we in an essay? And there's a little bit of that. But I kind of love that. It's not about the linear nature, but rather like, what I'm learning and how I learned it versus when. But God, I feel like life sometimes only. Does your life right now feel like it's getting messier or you're cleaning it up?

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I think I started a big cleanup a couple years ago. I. My life feels very full and I am incredibly grateful for that. And I would like to have a little more space. And so I'm trying to kind of recalibrate certain things because I actually really like my life and I want to be present for more of it.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And that feels special.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I feel the same. I feel like this has been a really interesting time. I've taken on a bit too much. I've learned, and so I'm going to get through that and then try to clean shop in other ways. But I think my biggest thing is I like to show up 100% for whatever it is that I'm doing, whether that's an interview or a, you know, a performance. Like, I want. Like, I did the Edinburgh Fringe Festival last year, and during that time, you know, I had all these other things that needed attention or my eyes on. And I basically was like, no, all I want to do right now is work on this show. And I will be so disappointed in myself if I don't give it my all and be like, oh, well, I was trying to do a thousand other things. So that is the part that scares me of, like, being a multi hyphenate and then being like, what that actually means of. Of being able to put your attention to different things at the same time.

[Sophia Bush]

I feel that as well, because I wonder if I just did one thing at a time, would I maybe accomplish more at the end? But also I have to. I Realize I have to be gentle with myself and also trust myself. I am curious about a lot of things I know.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And our ADHD wants us to be doing a lot at the same.

[Sophia Bush]

How did you actually start down the path of comedy and writing and the Fringe Festival? Like, now you've written a book, you create so much, and I want to.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Know how, because I don't think anyone else is letting me do that. I'm not someone that's being particularly tapped on for a thousand different stories to tell. And so I think right now the best option is to tell my own, because I'm such an active member of my life and wanting to be in this industry, knowing that these are gonna be some of really integral years to what the rest of it looks like. And so I don't want to sit at home waiting for, you know, I would love to just be an actress, and I would love to just wait for the auditions to come in and for the parts to play. But right now, that's, you know, limited for trans women, especially me, who I think is, you know, shares quite publicly. So I'm always trying to carve out other ways of filling time. And then I think what's fun is when somebody does approach me with an idea or an opportunity, I can fit it in amongst what I've already created, but I'm not waiting for anyone else. And I think there is something frustrating and can be exhausting of, like, always trying to manufacture and trying to tell a story or get something off the ground. But I'm proud that I feel quite. I'm usually quite sub in certain situations, but I feel very dom when it comes to my career and my trajectory and my creativity. I think I'm really, after finding my gender identity, I was like, oh, this is what being an artist can be. Now that I've figured some things out within myself. And I think maybe had things come a little easier as far as I was on Broadway right now doing eight shows a week, I probably wouldn't have written this book, and I probably wouldn't have started my podcast or any of these things that I think we need right now. And I do think trans Joy can look a lot of different ways, but this book is probably the loudest version of it for me in this moment.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that for you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And what it strikes me as when you talk about sort of taking control, it's agency. You are taking agency of your creativity. You are. You are making the things that you want and need that your younger self probably needed too. And I loved Something that you said. Rolling Stone just did a great profile on you on the book, and it was such a sweet way to clap back at people who are so upset by trans. Joy, you said, I'm not trying to influence anyone to do anything other than see a Broadway musical, period.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, that's me.

[Sophia Bush]

I was like, that's it.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That's my trans agenda. And hopefully that Broadway musical would have a trans person in it.

[Sophia Bush]

That would be wonderful. It should be you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But at the very least, go see fucking Cats. You know, like, I'm. I'm. I just think that people are so easy to project identities and activism and all these things onto you when. If you really listen to what the person is trying to say or. You know, what I've also think is crazy is I've done interviews where I'm like, I am not an activist. And then they titled the interview activist Dylan Mulvaney. And so it is really crazy how sometimes loud and clear and articulate you have to be in order to get people to figure out what it is you want.

[Sophia Bush]

So what would you say you want?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I would like to be a Broadway diva who gets to tell stories. Sometimes my own, sometimes fictional. I want to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things, like through transness and identity. I would love to make people think. I think that's something that's newer on my list of desires, because for a long time, I didn't know that I could be vulnerable publicly. That was kind of against the laws of my family. We were supposed to keep those things to ourself. But now I love it, and I think that I would love to find love in the hard places and help other people figure that out, too. But in a lot of those things, you know, could be as stupid as in a sketch or in, you know, a musical or what. They don't have to all be in, you know, at conferences or, you know, speaking at the White House or what. Whatever it is that. That some people also might assume that means.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. I think when you stand up for people, stand up for yourself, stand up for others, you can kind of get cast as a very serious person.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So many people think I'm so serious, and then people hang out with me and they're like, oh, you're weird and really quirky and funny.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right. We know how to have a good time. I actually will say, though, some of the most serious people are the ones that like to have the most fun. But then people expect that of potentially us in a way that I don't think is always fair. I think, like, I love letting loose with people and I think people can tell that from social media. But, but I also, I'm definitely not the trans girl that is ready to like, you know, give you every single statistic and talk about every single, you know, bill or, you know, anti trans legislation in the works. And I feel guilty about that sometimes, but then I realize I'm like, oh, but there's like so many other dolls that are really good at that. And I can do my best to figure out how to connect them when those opportunities come my way. Or, you know, they've. We have great conversations. Like, I'm going on a bunch of talk shows next week and I've talked to a bunch of dolls about, you know, what, what should I say? What do you think is important for the community? You know, trying to stay really proactive so that when those questions do come up, I'm ready but not leading with it.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, one thing I think is really important is that that can't just fall on you, right? It can't just be on trans women to advocate for trans women. CIS women need to show up and advocate for you. In the same way that when we talk about gender based violence around the world, that's actually, that's a male problem. That is a statistically male problem. If we scream into the void about what women go through in the world and men don't join us to say men should stop assaulting women.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

We're in a vacuum. And so I think, I'm so glad you feel like you get to be your full self. And I love that you have a community that helps you figure out what you should use those platforms to say in the moment. And I want other folks to be reminded that we have to show up for you too.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes, thank you. But it's also fascinating what's happening, I think, when it comes to allyship, because the far right extremists are getting really good at trying to scare our allies away. And even this was an example. I was getting my makeup done by a really lovely gay man last week and he was talking about this transvestigation over this very famous woman that all these people are claiming is a trans woman and all the reasons why they think she's trans. And I had to explain to him that it was like deeply problematic because, you know, whether this person was trans or not, they were trying to cast her as this like monster or this person hiding, you know, secrets or deceiving the public. And I had to explain that, like, what they now want to do is make CIS women believe that, like, being called trans or, you know, being accused of being a trans person is like the worst, you know, thing, when in reality it's like, most trans girls I know are really cute and they. We've got our, you know, we've got. We're working on it, we're getting it together. But I find it very problematic that a lot of allies don't always know what is transphobic. And, you know, we've got to figure out those conversations. But if it's pushing a notion that transness is evil or problematic, chances are it's probably transphobic.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And so it's interesting getting to still exist around so many icons and especially these women that I call friends and that support me publicly. Like I had Lady Gaga last year post on International Women's Day or, you know, standing up for me. And that's the kind of shit where I'm like, holy crap. Like, there's still the good ones and I'm here with you right now. I think that it makes me sad to think that certain people would be scared to be seen with a trans person or to work with us or hire us, but there's so much power in saying, no, I'm not going to live in that fear or that, you know, people are going to boycott my product or not watch this television show or unfollow because you support, you know, a trans person. That's. That is. It's. We can't give in to that. We cannot give into that fear. I'm so tired of being scared.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors.

[T Mobile]

Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now. Keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualify and unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Sophia Bush]

One of the things I think is really beautiful about the book is you. You do claim so much joy, you do share so much happiness with us and you also aren't shying away from the things that have been hard. And you do talk about beer gate and you do really bring us into what it feels like to be targeted by these far right hate campaigns. But the thing that hit me so hard, actually is something you share in the first 30 pages of the book. And you talk about how so many external opinions, you're one person on the Internet, millions of people can comment at you and talk about how so many external opinions can create so much noise, so much mental and emotional noise, that your darkest thoughts, your self loathing, your critique that all of us have inside of us can suddenly be parroting the worst of the comment section.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And how. And reading your words when you talked about it took my breath away. Cause I know exactly how that feels. It honestly made me gasp. Like I heard myself gasp when I read it, because I know how paralyzing that feeling is.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And how do you get, I think.

[Sophia Bush]

How do you identify it? How do you get out of it?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What's crazy is when you can, then when you have made enough progress to see that you are, you're quite literally at a crossroads where you're like, I'm either going to believe this, what they're saying about myself, and I'm going to take it on as part of me, or, or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is not true about myself because I know who I am and the people that I love know who I am. And let that be the course that you take. And I actually, even just yesterday we were talking about the Elton John party. I was interviewing people on the carpet and I was reading all these comments about, oh, you know, this girl's so annoying, she's standing too close to people, she won't let her. You know, people get a word, all these things. And I went, I almost was like, oh, I'm gonna make a video now. Being like, yep, I'm annoying, I know it. And then I was like, oh my gosh, like, it was like a clear cut. You just changed your opinion about yourself based on these other people. And there were plenty of other comments that loved it and that were, you know, behind what I was doing, but those other ones were louder. And I think what I had to do was not only kind of take some distance from taking in information about myself, which is so hard to not look, but I had to be very clear about who I was. I think I spent kind of the last two years since Beergate getting very specific about what I know about myself to be true. So that now when I put a book out and have a lot of new critique coming my way, that I can stand behind those things, I know I'm a musical theater girl. I know that I talk too much. I know that. Well, even me just saying that that was a projection of someone else that I love to talk is how I'll rephrase that. That I feel really beautiful most of the time, but that I also can sometimes get in my head, and that's often linked to dysphoria. I know that I love to be raunchy and that that's not something to be ashamed of about myself. And these are little things that I think are helpful. Then when I read those, I can kind of go down the checklist and be like, okay, so that's. It's not here already. And I don't think we need to add it. It's just. It's so crazy how great social media can be and then how toxic it. And even the. I think it goes back to the press, too, in the media of how they're pushing transphobia, because a lot of what they're saying in these headlines are, like, deeply transphobic, but they're very clickbaity. And those are other, like, those, actually, I have an easier time laughing at because it's like, it feels like this, you know, news source that couldn't be more incorrect versus, like, seeing a person's name on a screen that's like, leaving a specific comment because that feels, in a weird way, more tangible, knowing there's, like, a human behind it.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. What's a bot, though?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What are bots?

[Sophia Bush]

Could just be a bot.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I don't understand. Do you have. Do you have bots? Have you looked into bots?

[Sophia Bush]

Oh. Oh. It's just. It's relentless and it's.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

We need, like, a queer bot farm that, like, throws the good stuff out there that just. Could you imagine someone, like, doing, like.

[Sophia Bush]

A sexy, sassy commentary?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, that would be nice. Who's gonna pay for that?

[Sophia Bush]

I don't know. We need a benevolent.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Who's really.

[Sophia Bush]

Gay billionaire.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, we need a gay billionaire to put out.

[Sophia Bush]

But I don't think there are any benevolent billionaires, unfortunately. I hate to.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's tricky, right?

[Sophia Bush]

Rude. I don't know. But if we win the Powerball, it could be.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That's what. And then it's going to be us making a good bot farm.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, I'm here for that.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Is that an oxymoron, a good bot farm? Is it bot, by the way.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What is bot? St. Robot.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, like a robot. It's a little digital terrorist, essentially.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm also getting scared of, like, how our future's going to go with robots and things.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, me too. Everything's crazy. I'm like, did nobody watch Terminator? What are we doing?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Or the car? I don't like the self driving cars.

[Sophia Bush]

No. Creeps me out. It all creeps me out. But at least we're entering into a future where your book exists. Woo.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I bet it's gonna get banned so fast.

[Sophia Bush]

You know what's really sort of hilarious but sad about you saying that is my partner was like what is this enormous box of book? What is this? Like you need any more books? And I said oh no, sorry. Last week I had to buy all the books the DOJ banned just in case. Oh my God, we're that in it. And I'm going, this is so weird that I'm turning my house into a book archive just in case.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I mean and say that I write in the book. I say like, I hope the words on this page last longer than the videos on my profile. And TikTok got banned for a second there and I was like, oh, I thought this was going to be like a nostalgic 50 years from now sentence. And now it's like the reality. But lot harder to get rid of something physical like this than to have a profile disappear online, push something and have it go. And I think I wrote about meeting Judy Blume in my book and I got to interview her during literally the height of Beer Gate. And what had happened right before I walked in that interview was I got slammed coming out of a woman's bathroom in the hotel that I was interviewing Judy Blume and they were saying horrible things to me up in my face. They had totally trespassing. But then I had to walk into this interview with Judy and I swear things just happen when they're supposed to and you see the people that you needed. Cause I felt so small in that moment. And then getting to talk to her, you know, this is a woman who had her books banned years and years ago in like 70s and the 80s. And she looked at me at the end and she was like, do not let anyone stop you from sharing your story, from writing it down, from putting it out there. She was like, there's so much good to be done. She was like, there were so many people early on that tried to make me feel like I was, you know, evil or that I was doing something that was corrupting the youth. And she was like, but you have to know what the purpose is of something. And she was like, you've got to put it out there. And so like hearing that from like Judy Blume. That's somebody that's a little bit better to be listening to than Fox News, I would say.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, yeah. Or some insane person bombarding bathrooms.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Can you. That's like. It's so gross.

[Sophia Bush]

It's so gross. But you know what is is wild to me. And I think this is something people miss again because, you know, they have to create clickbait and rage in some ways, so they have to make everyone afraid of everyone. And there's no way that seeing you exist in the world and be happy is gonna turn some CIS kid trans. But what I know to be true is that a four year old who does what you did and says to your mom, God, made a mistake, I'm in the wrong body, could see you and know that what they're saying isn't crazy and that they're gonna be okay someday.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And that to me feels like such an important thing in the world to just make sure that people don't feel alone.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right. And I've now what's been fascinating since talking about that moment with my mom, like, so many people even in the industry have like, come to me and been like, hey, my kid is, you know, going through this or. And it gives people permission to, you know, have conversations and to like, get to the bottom of things in a way that I think there was so much shame about. And I even told my family, I was like, I didn't paint us as these like, picture perfect people because we aren't and that's not what our family is. But hopefully other people getting to see our progress and that the fact that we all still love each other and I feel so supported by them is actually way more beneficial than me painting it as like a pretty picture.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think one of the hardest things about being a human in the public eye is that you very rarely get to go through something and process it and then talk about it when it's done. You kind of have to process in real time out loud. And I think that can be very toxic because then your life gets treated like it's a TV show or a storyline. And you're like, no, this is happening to me.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And it feels like it will never change. I now feel really removed from certain ideas that were made about me, like even being the trans beer girl. And now years later, I'm like, oh, I'm doing all these other things that have nothing to do with that. And I thought that was gonna be the way that I was interpreted forever, but it's not, but it's not.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think it's beautiful to see you go through certain things, publicly process them, and then be able to reflect. But I love that some of the stuff about you and your family, you've been able to do both. You've been able to do the real time, but you've also been able to take us in the book on this journey backwards. And, yeah, you've been honest about it. And I think the honesty, actually, as a reader, makes me feel so hopeful for my own family, for other families.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I think you can tell when some. Especially if you're, like, reading something of someone's, you can tell how it's being spun as far as, like. And I was like, I want to be as factual as I can with, like, how these moments went down so that people can feel whatever way that they feel about them. And then there are moments where I really get quite emotional and show them kind of how I was feeling mentally versus, like, what was actually, you know, happening in the world around me. And a lot of that, I think, in the book kind of slowed where I went and did ayahuasca in Peru. And I wrote about, you know, this sort of, like, I wanted it to be this quick fix. And what it really did was it, like, started something in myself that I was gonna end up. I'm still thinking about so many of the things that I found while I was down there on that. Weird to call it a drug. It really feels more like a.

[Sophia Bush]

It's medicine.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's a medicine. Yes. Would you ever do ayahuasca?

[Sophia Bush]

I have.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, wow.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Have we. I don't even know if we've talked about that.

[Sophia Bush]

We haven't.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, my God.

[Sophia Bush]

We need to.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And it's. It's also funny because I think when I told people that I was going down there to do that, there was either. Certain people were like, that's amazing. I've always wanted to do that. Tell me everything. And then there are some people who feel really uncomfortable by the idea of doing something a different kind of way. And that was my work in progress, was to try it in a way that was not offered to me as a young person or in my early years, just, you know, if. When. When sh. T really hits the fan. Doing it a different way.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, I think a lot of people are scared of anything expansive. I think it's why so many people are afraid of trans people, because you challenge boundary and binary and you say there's a more expansive way to be a human, you know, Our friend Alok talks about this all the time. That the freedom that you have to claim to be trans is terrifying to people that don't feel free in their own lives.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

And for me, you know, 10 years ago, when I had this, like, deeply prepared for, you know, therapy involved all the things experience. It was part of a. Of a larger process of how do I begin to not be stuck in this way of thinking? How do I begin to interrupt a feedback loop and see other options that are probably here, but that I'm not seeing?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think when you can be well researched and safe and obviously, you know, ready.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Ready in whatever way ready can feel because it doesn't always, you know, you won't feel 100% ready.

[Sophia Bush]

But sure, but I think that's true for anything. And when something calls to you when you're. When claiming who you are out loud, calls to you when saying, you know, I built this whole life and I checked off everything on my list like a good girl and I really don't like it. And I think maybe I deserve to like my life. That I learned a few years ago is a radical act.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think, I think sometimes when you are radically courageous, people really will on you for it. But some people will also walk up and hug you and say, you saved my life and that makes it worth it. I just wish the Internet was less prone to sh. Tting on people.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I. Sometimes I forget because I was, you know, 14, the only, like, gay person out at my high school. Like, I forget that it is. There are so many adults that are still grappling with these decisions that are living these life, have children, have, you know, jobs that like that they are trying to make the most difficult decision to be themselves possible. And I think I have to always remember that it's not always as easy or available to people as someone like me who was really privileged to. Although my family was conservative and Catholic, I didn't get thrown out of the house. And I found these pockets of community in theater where some people don't have those places to like, see gay people thriving. So the Internet is really good in that way because people get to watch things like this. But I think that it's. I don't know, this book coming out in 2025 is crazy because, well, it's a radical act. Yes. But even when it was decided that it would come out, we didn't know who the president was gonna be. We didn't know what trans legislation was gonna look like. And so I have to trust that this is the right time, and I don't want to become a poster child again. Like how that felt like it went down in 2022. But I feel charged up in a really good way, which is so glad. Yummy. When do you feel the most? Like when you're feeling, like, really exhausted. How long does it take you to get back into progress mode? Or when you've had a big. What feels like maybe a failure? Or when something doesn't go your way that you've been working so hard towards? How long does it take you to bounce back? And then when do you know that you're ready?

[Sophia Bush]

I don't know. I think it's sort of a case by case thing, something that I have learned to monitor for myself. As you said earlier, you went, oh, look at me. I already acknowledging something nasty someone said to me and apologizing for it. When I find myself so wounded by negativity that I'm figuring out how to answer for it. When I, you know, the next time I have a mic, I'm gonna have to figure out how to gently address, then I know I need a beat.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Before, you know, not forcing it.

[Sophia Bush]

I don't need to explain everything to everyone. And it's a weird thing because the Internet will critique you if you don't, and then if you do, they critique you for oversharing. And no matter what you do, you can't get it right. And so I have to take a breath and say, this is not a normal human experience for there to be one of us and multi millions of people talking at us all the time.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So if I know that, how can I then try to use it for good, Remind myself that it's also not my real life and be in my life as much as I can and that even when I can ask myself those questions, I know I'm in a good place because I'm making adjustments for my humanity, not for what something looks like.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And is Ashlyn the one that helps you take a beat and, like, figure out what it is you are called to say or what your, you know, real opinion is on certain things before you share that public. Like, who is. Who's the cause? For me, it is a lot of Lily, it's my life Coach Mori. It's Alok. Me and Alok talk all the time. You know, there are those people. Do you have, like, who do you find yourself in those tough situations going to.

[Sophia Bush]

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.

[T Mobile]

Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network. Because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines to be a virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualified unlocked device credit service report in 90 plus days device ineligible carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Sophia Bush]

What I think I have had to come to terms with having real joyful, like deep, silly, expansive love in my life is that I have actually done so much by myself for so long. I tend to show up for other people, but I very rarely ask people to show up for me. And I am learning to ask. I am learning that I don't have to do it all by myself. I am learning to call my, you know, wonderful coven of brilliant women and just say, what the f are we gonna do with this?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I will say I feel like there's so many people in this world that have to find every other opinion but their own before they can form theirs. And so it is kind of iconic in a way that you can do things independently. But I will say the fact that you have that this arsenal of incredible humans to tap into, you should use it.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. And I'm working on that. And it feels nice to not have so much weight on my shoulders all the time. I have a question for you because, look, we're all obviously navigating our lives, but one of the things that I feel excited about for you as your friend is as you kind of name and claim all your power. I feel like you're also in this fun moment of starting to figure out who's gonna pour into your cup. And. And it's different for you. You know, you talked about being, you know, a young out gay and then having to really come to terms with the fact that, oh, that's not my full self. I'm actually, I'm actually this woman that I've always felt in me. How does that experience shift how you date?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh my God.

[Sophia Bush]

Because you're also so public.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes. But I will think about this tall glass of water because needs to be someone who is comfortable dating someone in the public eye.

[Sophia Bush]

Yep.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Is attracted to trans women.

[Sophia Bush]

Yep.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Is comfortable with maybe aspects of their life. You know, not that I'm like going to put a relationship on blast, but there is a chance whether I speak or not that. That. That aspects of their life could be affected by what I'm doing and saying. So it almost has to be someone who has, like, a kink for, like, an oversharing trans woman. But, like, what I. The most important thing is that I cannot be with someone who I have any doubts, is ashamed to be with me. And because what I have done so well is, like, start to let go of the shame that I have around who I am. So what would be the worst case scenario is me attaching myself to someone else who. Then I start changing myself based on how they. They're reflecting back to me and what they're seeing in me and what they articulate to me about myself. Um, and. And so I really think it's gonna be. I actually. It's a. It's a hot take, but I would like it to be someone that has something to do either with our industry or is in the public eye already. So that, like, if I was with this, like, doctor that, you know, their. Doesn't get rocked on the Daily Mail because, like, there's just things and maybe. Who doesn't. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You're not looking to baptize someone in the public life. Fire. I get that.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes. And so, in a way, there would be some comfort in knowing, like, oh, this person has their own thing going on as well. But I think I'm really turned on by creativity, by drive. I find it. So, like, if I'm out on a date with someone and they're talking about all the things they're doing, I get so horny because I'm like, oh, this is someone who has dreams and ambitions just the way that I am. So they're not gonna. If I come in, you know, I walk into the house one day and I'm like, I want to do this this, this, and this that. They're like, whoa. Like, I think I want, like, a yes human. And I've really. I've tried the hookup thing. I found it to be really true. LA is. Honey, it's not.

[Sophia Bush]

What do you mean you've tried the hookup thing? Icon.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I've tried the casual. Yeah. Whether it's. I'm using it.

[Sophia Bush]

I've never been on an app, so I'm so crazy.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm so jealous. I know.

[Sophia Bush]

It's really weird. I've actually.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I only have Raya. I've been thinking about potentially deleting it just because it hasn't yielded the greatest result.

[Sophia Bush]

Sure.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But I. I think there. What's the word? Oh, demisexual. I think maybe Chapel Roan was talking about in an interview about, what I like is I need to be emotionally connected with someone beforehand. And especially I think being trans, I feel really protective over my body and the fact that there's still so many things changing with it, and I want it to be someone that I like. It is hard for me to get to a place where I'm ready to take my makeup off and. God, for what I was thinking about. Someone was talking about shower sex recently, and I was like, okay, that's my worst nightmare. Because I was like, not only are the fake lashes, they're coming off, but that is really such a vulnerable state to be in. But I really hope that it's with someone. And I like older. I've always liked a mature soul, but I hope it's with someone who is proud to be with a trans person and is. Who gets a kick out of whatever it is that I'm doing or want to do.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I want to be the same with them.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. I don't know. You got to think about. I'm looking for, like, 28 to 58 masc, bisexual vibe. Feels yummy. You know, kind of like daddy, but also, you know, can be, like, soft as well. Think on it. You've got a pool of queers now.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I'm gonna really. I'm gonna figure out.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And the other thing. I used to date gay men, and they were so much better than straight guys. I had no idea what I was missing.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Or what that I had in that what I ended up getting was not as good as I thought it was gonna be. And I have an essay called the Kissing Bandit in the book where I talk about, you know, just, like, what it felt like to have, like, the straight male gaze on me for the first time. And not the gaze, but the gaze. And I thought it was gonna feel so much better than it did. It was such a. An empty confidence that came from it. And, you know, it can feel good sometimes, but it doesn't make me feel as good as, like, when a girl's hyping me up and, you know, in the bathroom or, you know, a phone call with Lily. Like, it's interesting to. Now I've kind of gotten to look at life on both sides, Like, Joni Mitchell.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I love that. I can see, like, the perks of living life as a gay man versus as a woman, how the queer community treats you, depending on what gender you are.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, like, how women treat you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, that changed a Lot. And it's still, you know, evolving. And something that I feel. I hope does not digress, because I feel like I have really taken the. Not a backseat at all. Almost like the passenger seat to the driver. In learning from other gals. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

What do you feel like you're learning?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I think I'm learning that not like I think I was. It felt for a long time like it was CIS women versus trans women. And I'm realizing there's a lot of the girls are fighting in both categories, but that there are a lot of CIS women who do not see eye to eye on things as well. And that, to me, gave me permission to not look at us as these two different categories of people, but actually see the nuance of what exists within womanhood and feminism. And knowing that even I'm watching the White Lotus right now. And it's so interesting, like, when you've got, like, a. We're looking at these. Have you watched it yet? Like, a friend. Group of women who maybe have different political beliefs and how that shifts, you know, the conversations and the judgments. And I think that I now have less of a desire to be accepted by every single woman.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I. It's more of a desire to be respected by those that I deeply respect.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. Yes.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. And a lot of. And I will say, like, the. The gals that I've loved in my role models growing up, like, now, some of which are, like, friends, and that is what a gift like, that is, has helped show me that I. I'm the kind of gal that I loved growing up and that I would continue wanting to be.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that for you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I love you.

[Sophia Bush]

You're the gal you loved growing up.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm so proud of you.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think, like, Sex and the.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

City, I've been watching so much of, and there's this fear, I think, as a trans person, that you are made out to be a caricature or that you're taking on aspects of, you know, other women or fictional women. And so I did feel a little guilty. I was like, oh, I love Audrey Hepburn, and I love her style. But I don't want it to seem like I'm, like, cosplaying as her. I love Charlotte from Sex and the City, and, you know, I feel so connected to her as a character, but I don't want it to seem like that's what I'm, like, trying to be. And then I realized, like, oh, no, that's just. You're seeing things, whether it's in a character or in A human or in a celebrity that you see within yourself and that have already existed. And it's not that they're things that I'm putting on, but it's things that I see in others that I love and that I want to make even a little brighter within me.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, and things you. You identify with.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

That you feel represented by. That you feel. That make you feel seen.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. Are you. What. What girl in Sex Nicity. Are you?

[Sophia Bush]

I don't know. Probably. I mean, let's be honest. I'm. I'm. I think people probably would have thought Carrie, but I think I'm a little more a Miranda. My dad still can't believe I'm not a lawyer. He's like, you love to argue. You love to fight for justice.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I see some Miranda there. I also think, like, you hold an earnestness and an innocence still that is kind of Charlotte.

[Sophia Bush]

That gives you Charlotte energy. Oh, you sweet angel.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes. Because that is such a rarity. And that is honestly, when I think of our group of friends and those that we hang out with, like, there is that innocence that I love. We talked about it last year on the pod of, like, you know, finding people that have. Oh, and I loved. Jane Fonda recently did a podcast interview where she talked about optimism versus hope. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

With Kerry Washington.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

It was so good.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I now. Cause I feel like for so long, I've been like, I am an eternal optimist. And now I'm like, oh, no, we're hopeful.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm hopeful.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm still so hopeful.

[Sophia Bush]

Is that going into this crazy year where literally our rights are being stripped away and democracy might be lost, but your book is coming out.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

It's the horrors and the joy. Is it hope that feels like your work in progress right now, or is it something completely different?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, it's actually. I think it's a balance of realism versus hope. And for. I think for a long time, I lived. I'm a 0 to 100 person, 100% just hopeful in a way that I got burned so many times because I wasn't taking into consideration what could happen or the realities of what it meant to be trans in America or the realities of living in the public eye. I always assumed the best of everyone. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I've made that sense, even the media.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And it's bitten me enough for me to know the possibilities of what that looks like. And so I'm a little more cautious. But the hope is that I can exist in a place where it's the best case scenario, and that the good things are possible and that my vision board can come true. And then it's the lack of when those things don't happen or can't happen because of the gear that we're living in or the government that we have or whatever that might be. That I have a plan B, C and D that can still get me through and that I can still live a full life, hopefully. But I'm not gonna go to plan B, C or D before I try plan A. And I think that has been really crucial even this year. I don't have a vision. I'm always a vision board girl. I've always been able to manifest magical things. But it feels so out of the ordinary right now that I haven't forced myself to want certain things. But I am approaching every single opportunity. I'm like, does this help me become a Broadway diva?

[Sophia Bush]

I love that.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And so that's my vision board for this year is that question. And there's hope within that. So I will say, oh, yes. Thank you, Jane Fonda. Hope is my work in progress right now.

[Sophia Bush]

I love it.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. What's yours? Right now?

[Sophia Bush]

You give me a lot of hope. I think slowing down, it's really hard for me.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

But I am just so ready for slow, tender.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

We don't want to be everywhere and nowhere. We want to be some places and giving 100%. Oh, love you. I love you.

[Sophia Bush]

So proud of you. This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab at the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America. Thousands of runners are raising funds for life changing causes and you can help make an impact. Visit bofa.com helpacause to donate and support a runner's fundraising efforts. Together, we're making a difference. One step at a time. What would you like the power to do, bank of America?