Sophia Bush (3:17)

Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, Whip Smarties. Today we are joined by one of my favorite smart, creative, I mean, brilliant women who also happens to be one of the coolest chicks that I know. Today's guest is actress, writer and director Lake Bell, who is starring in the upcoming series the Chair Company on HBO and who has just released a book inspired by her daughter. The book is called all about Brains, A book about people. And it is a whimsical story that celebrates the ways all of our different brains make us special in a light hearted and you'll hear me crying emotional exploration of neurodiversity. The book was inspired by Lake's own daughter, Nova. And today we're going to talk about what it's like to be a parent of a brilliant and different kid, what both of our journeys with families look like, and how she views her career as both a personal sense of expression and as a real responsibility. Because with a platform comes privilege. And Lake is so amazing at mobilizing her privilege for others in really beautiful and inclusive ways. Let's dive in with Lake Bell. I was reading so many articles about your audiobook because it fascinates me and also I feel like I needed to go back in time a little bit. And when you were talking about having a voice like you have, a voice similar to my own, I was gonna say you.

Lake Bell (5:12)

Yeah. You were on the list of unique voices.

Sophia Bush (5:14)

Well, just in terms of what it was like as a young actor, particularly not sounding like all a little ingenues.

Lake Bell (5:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (5:24)

I was like, oh my God, same girl. I feel it.

Lake Bell (5:26)

Yeah. Well, I think it, I think, you know, it definitely. It's more, it affects more than you realize. I think it's like, sure, you can look a certain way, you can imbue a certain amount of qualities that is ingenuesque. But then if your sound is different, there's like a je ne sais quoi that might or either get you the role or not get you the role.

Sophia Bush (5:55)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (5:56)

Or have someone even in an interview situation or meeting a potential partner for the first time, you know, whatever it is, you're like, oh, we're either gonna get along or not. I mean, for me, I. You know, there's like a vocal chemistry, I think that happens, that I can be highly adverse to certain sounds also because my ears, I think, are. I call, I say to my kids, I'm like, I have wolf hearing. So you gotta take it down a notch. Same sensitive, sensitive hearing. Which means I'm, like, picking up on all kinds of, you know, vocal little quirks and qualities and things that are, you know, what's. Also what's not there, you know, resonance or, like, being really tinny, you know, and, like, pushing. I'm like, where's your breath? You know, like.

Sophia Bush (6:47)

The science of sound.

Lake Bell (6:48)

The science of sound. And the kind of emotional sort of qualities that I think really either pull you to somewhat. It's like a magnet, you know, you hear someone's sound and you're like, ooh, I'm attracted to that sound. Or, ooh, I'm. Oh, God, I'm just repelled by that sound.

Sophia Bush (7:10)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (7:10)

Which is like, sorry. But, you know, it just is one of those things. I think it's almost like pheromones, you know?

Sophia Bush (7:16)

Totally. I love that. Well, and I think about particularly the era we came up in as actors. We were in the. The height of sort of sexy baby voice.

Lake Bell (7:28)

Yeah. That, like, Paris Hilton Y sound. Britney Spears, very sexy, very young, very nubile. I don't know.

Sophia Bush (7:35)

And I remember. I can't recall. I think it must have been the. Maybe the second or third season that we were doing One Tree Hill in Wilmington. You came to do your show.

Lake Bell (7:45)

Oh, yeah, that's right. We were there together.

Sophia Bush (7:47)

Yes. And I remember hanging out with you. I don't remember if it was the apartment you were in or one of your castmates that used to be Dennis Hopper's room.

Lake Bell (7:54)

That was mine.

Sophia Bush (7:55)

It was yours.

Lake Bell (7:56)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (7:56)

And I remember. I remember just being like, this girl is so cool, and I'm so excited to be her friend. And then your show moved on.

Lake Bell (8:05)

I know.

Sophia Bush (8:05)

And then I was there, which was great. But I was there alone mostly. And I was so excited years later to see you again and be like, hey, girl. And it was like, the raspy ones are. We're still here.

Lake Bell (8:19)

It's interesting. And your sound has just. Now that I'm thinking about your sound. Your sound and my sound both have evolved. Like, if we took a clip of us during those earlier years in Williamsburg. Williamton. What is it?

Sophia Bush (8:32)

Wilmington.

Lake Bell (8:33)

Wilmington. Like Williamsburg.

Sophia Bush (8:35)

Williamsburg would have Been cool.

Lake Bell (8:36)

No, in Wilmington. You know, I bet those sounds have, you know, you know, the. Just the color of life, you know, has occurred, where more rasp is coming out, you know, or, you know, also, we've arrived in this space to speak in mics. So my sound. I'm aware of my sound being a little more juicy and a little more liquid than it might be. If I'm kind of just, you know, talking to my daughter, I'm like, that's enough. You know, like, maybe I'm not supporting my voice as much when I'm parenting in chaos, but, you know, I think all of those things are just so sexy to me. Like, they turn me on so much. I love our. The things that we don't notice, you know, and so if we looked back on and listened to our voices in those early episodes of those shows, I thought they would sound different than they are right now.

Sophia Bush (9:33)

Oh, my God. I would love. Well, that sort of leads me to the question I normally start with with guests, because, you know, you come in, you're promoting something, you've written something, you have a film coming out, whatever it is, you have this gorgeous career, and listeners know you as this person. And I always am curious if you got to go back in time and hang out with yourself when you were a kid, maybe when you were your daughter's, would you see yourself in that little version of you? And because it's you, I also want to know, was that little girl obsessed with sound?

Lake Bell (10:10)

Yes. So I have to say I was like, unabashedly precocious and super into dorked out, nerdy stuff like that. And I used to put on these at Nova's age for sure, maybe even younger, as a procrastination tool to go to bed. I did not want to go to bed a night person. And I was like, I gotta entertain the adults. So it would be that thing of I put on voices and, you know, play Harry Belafonte and be, you know, throw on an outfit and do a dance number, you know, musical number. But definitely interested in from an early age, being from New York, especially where you are surrounded by, whether you like it or not, just sounds of the city, but then also of a thousand different cultures and a thousand languages, you know, and how people spoke. Even within New York, you know, you had just this beautiful cacophony of accents and dialects and languages. And so I think that was very integral to my interest in not just culture, but character, you know. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (11:26)

So where do you think that bug came from? When did you know you were studying people because you wanted to play people.

Lake Bell (11:33)

I think it was super early. I knew I wanted to be an actor before I understood what it is to be an actor. I just knew that I wanted to be characters before I knew that word. I remember in the 80s, growing up in the city, there was always movie trucks on the side of the road, and it was usually, you know, there would be, like, Woody Allen movies being shot and whatnot. Or I just remember this particular. Particular one because I was on the Upper east side. So, you know, he definitely would have lots of things shot there anyway, so I would be pouting like this in the taxi cab, say. And my mom would say, what? What's wrong?

Sophia Bush (12:12)

What's.

Lake Bell (12:13)

What's. What's up? I'd be like, I'm not even in that movie. And she's like, you're six. Like, you know, And I'm like, yeah, but I didn't even, like. Like, there's just movies happening, and, like, everyone's just making fun things, and I'm not even invited. And, you know, and she'd be. When you grow up, if that's still what you want to do, you know, you get to do that. So I just remember being, like, knowing I wanted to do it. I want to look. That's so fun, that thing that they do. And I want to do that. I want to write stories. I want to be in stories. Did you have that?

Sophia Bush (12:45)

I think I did, weirdly. And it was an interesting thing because, you know, I. It sort of occurred to me more recently. Somebody asked me why I ride really hard for the crew at work. Like, you know, and not. It was partially a compliment in the conversation and partially a call out of, like, you know, your job is to be focused on your job. You don't always have to be making sure everyone else has everything they need for their job. Like, that's kind of their job. And so it was this neat, interesting thing because I was explaining, you know, when you are in a cast and certainly when you've worked your way up to being in, you know, the first four numbers, let alone number one on the call sheet, like, you do have to really advocate for your people. And I think it was a person pointing out to me maybe having a slightly altered percentage of where my focus can go just to ensure that I'm, to your point, like, taking care of my instrument, doing the things that I really need to do for me as well. And I think it made me click into what it was like to grow up going to work with my Dad a lot because he was a photographer. Oh, I didn't know his whole career. I always say he was. And then I'm like, he didn't die. He just says retired. Oh my God, he was retired. It's scary. But, you know, I went to work with a crew dad.

Lake Bell (14:16)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (14:16)

And so I got to see how talent behaved. I got to see how visiting executives or creative directors behaved. And I got to see how hard everybody else was working and how their behavior affected. A set though wasn't often centered. And so I really, I cherish that. And so I think I. I think I learned how to be a good crew person and then eventual producer from working with my dad. But I don't think I clued into wanting to be a performer. I just knew art was fun. And then I think there was a period similarly to you. Cause I'm also a night owl where I never wanted to go to bed. And so I would get caught watching Dragnet like on Nick at night or reruns of Mr. Ed. Like I was. I've truly been a grandfather for my whole life. But then I realized if I could get my parents to hang out with me, sure.

Lake Bell (15:16)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (15:17)

Then I could usually stay up a little later.

Lake Bell (15:19)

Yeah. You're like, don't you like the show? Whatever show you guys want to watch.

Sophia Bush (15:21)

Yeah. And then I'd start doing like a. Oh, but why don't you let me do the voices? Oh. Like I'll give you a performance as grandpa and all his friends in Teaneck, you know, and like then I could stay up a little later. And I had not thought about it in that way until I was reading your reflections on how you became obsessed with voice acting.

Lake Bell (15:43)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (15:44)

And I was like, oh my God. We would have been cool little kid friends for sure.

Lake Bell (15:50)

We would have stayed up till like 2 in the morning.

Sophia Bush (15:52)

100%. I still want to stay up till.

Lake Bell (15:54)

2 in the morning. I know. And have kids.

Sophia Bush (15:57)

We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

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Sophia Bush (19:41)

Okay, so this is my question for you completely. Yeah, they were taking a left turn, but it's perfect. Thinking about you and your two kids. Now that I love someone with two kids. I am having to become a morning person because children are mourning people.

Lake Bell (19:57)

Yeah, they want to get up.

Sophia Bush (19:59)

And I am. I am a night person. And I mean, even like, diagnosed circadian rhythm by a sleep doctor. Oh, you're one of the rare 8% of people who is a true night owl. How do you do it as a mom?

Lake Bell (20:13)

You don't have a choice.

Sophia Bush (20:17)

You just shift it.

Lake Bell (20:19)

Don't have a choice? Yeah, you don't have a choice at all. And it's like, I remember my ex husband, who's awesome Scott, was saying, you know, he knew I was a night out, and he's like, let's, you know, try for a kid. I'm like, yeah, totally. But what if they're. What if. What if they're like early birds, you know, like you? Because my. He's just like, he'll be up at 5.

Sophia Bush (20:43)

Oh, no.

Lake Bell (20:44)

And I am. He knew I was such a night owl, and he's like, I'll take care of morning shift forever. Don't worry about it. So you have a kid and guess what? Your boobs are on morning shift whether you like it or not. Meaning you're attached to your boobs, and therefore morning shift occurs. And then you're just trained. And the truth is, when you're pregnant, you are the reason. I feel like the reason why the body keeps you up all hours of the night and in the morning and everything is because the body's just training you to just you. Sorry.

Sophia Bush (21:23)

Deal.

Lake Bell (21:24)

You're gonna have to be doing feedings every two hours. This is part of the training system that we put in place. And so the pregnant body just kind of starts training you. And then by the time you're deposited on the other side of this, like, epic life moment of childbirth, you are. You're like, I guess I'm a person who's up all night and also in the morning. Oh, I know. And then you start to taper off a little. And right when you get comfy, it's like there's sleep regression, you know, and so you're just needed. And the truth is, is like you're chemically. You're chemically connected to the progeny and the little being that is wanting sustenance. And so your brain, you know, your body's just like, all right, I'll give you sustenance.

Sophia Bush (22:13)

I guess I'm doing this.

Lake Bell (22:14)

Yeah. It's just like in the same. In a similar way, you know, it's different because it doesn't have the chemical component. But I love what we do so much. Right. Like, I. It is so hugely a part of. I feel so grateful and privileged to be able to be a writer and a director and create these stories for. As an actor and. Oh, wow. Get to be a part of this creative ecosystem, you know, family. And so when they say you have to be on set at 6am to be in hair and makeup, you're not psyched, but you totally do it.

Sophia Bush (22:55)

Yep.

Lake Bell (22:55)

You wake up, you gotta get up at 5. Cause you're gonna have to get picked up by the van at 5:15. And then the location's X amount away. So you're just doing it.

Sophia Bush (23:03)

Yep.

Lake Bell (23:04)

There's no, It's. There's no qu. You just do it. And I think the adjustment of anything in life as an adult, you know, it's just that. But I hear you.

Sophia Bush (23:14)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (23:15)

It is when you're like, body wants to be asleep at certain times. You know, you just gotta.

Sophia Bush (23:23)

You just gotta do it.

Lake Bell (23:24)

You just gotta do it.

Sophia Bush (23:25)

Well, that's the thing.

Lake Bell (23:25)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (23:26)

It's been really interesting. And I've nerded out a little bit on the, you know, the sleep prep where I'm like, okay, this is when I gotta turn my screens off.

Lake Bell (23:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (23:35)

Cause if I. If I'm watching TV, it's not even. It's not 10 19. If it hits 10 21. It's like a little gremlin who's jolly.

Lake Bell (23:44)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (23:44)

In me is like, it's my time now.

Lake Bell (23:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (23:47)

And I just. I want to reorganize. I want to do laundry, I want to watch television. I want to watch eight episodes of television.

Lake Bell (23:53)

Get the whole season.

Sophia Bush (23:54)

It's just so crazy. So I'm kind of like, okay, I gotta wind down at 9:30. I'm gonna put on the blue light glasses.

Lake Bell (24:01)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (24:02)

Two and four.

Lake Bell (24:03)

Oh, snap.

Sophia Bush (24:04)

Yeah. About to be three.

Lake Bell (24:05)

Okay. In it.

Sophia Bush (24:07)

Oh, yeah. And my partner's the sweetest human in the world. Cause she's like, you missed the, like, warm loaf of bread, sleepy baby stage. Like, you came into this world, our world, with two toddlers, and they're just like, up all the time and absolutely amped. And they are my favorite little humans. Like, they're so funny and so charming and wonderful and wild. And my godson is right in the age between the two of them, so it's just like pack of babies everywhere. My two best friends have recent one year olds, and it's just like, that's a lot.

Lake Bell (24:43)

It's a lot.

Sophia Bush (24:43)

We're having the most fun. But, yeah, I was like, oh, I didn't get the, like, mostly napping phase. There's just. It's just you sign up for the sleeplessness.

Lake Bell (24:54)

You do.

Sophia Bush (24:54)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (24:55)

And then you realize, I can't believe that I'm actually. I'm getting through this.

Sophia Bush (24:59)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (24:59)

Like, you do. Anyway.

Sophia Bush (25:01)

Yeah. I also will say, in some of the, you know, as stressful as things have been in our day job world, where no one knows what's happening to our beautiful industry, in the times where we're not on set, hours and things like this are scheduled early or late, I'm like, ooh, it's nap time. I'm gonna nap too. That changes my life.

Lake Bell (25:23)

The world is exhausting right now, you know, so it's.

Sophia Bush (25:29)

Gee, what do you mean? You mean 20, 25 something going on?

Lake Bell (25:32)

Yeah, I mean, I just feel like the endurance that we've even been on since COVID you know, is really, you know, it's. If you, you know, carpe naptum, you know, I just like, if you have the great and beautiful privilege to rest, please do that for your own health and well being.

Sophia Bush (25:55)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (25:55)

Like, if I get in a nap.

Sophia Bush (25:57)

A month, I feel like there should be a thing in my little health app that I can. I want, like a button that gives me a gold coin, like in Zelda luxury. Yeah.

Lake Bell (26:06)

Yeah. Because it's like, to nap is to say that you're worth shutting your system down and taking that time to be that loaf of bread, as it were.

Sophia Bush (26:16)

Yeah. Well, I will never forget many years ago, my therapist saying to me about a friend's recently born kid, would you ever let that baby go without sleep? Would you ever let that baby go hungry? Would you ever. You know? And it was this sort of series of questions, and she said, why do you, as an adult woman, think you deserve less care? And I went, oof. Because we would. We would do anything for our kids. We would do Anything for the kids in our village, our friends, kids, like, we show up for them in these ways. And yeah, on the, on the off month that I get a nap in, I'm like, look at me. Self care.

Lake Bell (26:55)

Yeah. I mean, I. I feel, I think the main thing is you feel guilt. I think as a parent, you know, I'm a parent of children with some learning differences. And I'm divorced. I'm a single mom. You know, we're 50, 50 with everything, you know, so it's like there's this sense of I need to be doing something also as an activist, as somebody who gives a. About the world and how oppression just is just reeking through every orifice of this, of every systemic system. I don't know, space, place, continents, world. I mean, environment. I mean, so through that, I think, you know, I feel personally, at least I can only speak for myself, that I can feel a sense of guilt, of how dare you rest. How dare you rest when so many cannot. So that's where I come from. And then I go, hey, guess what? You know, it is my responsibility to take care of myself in order to take care of my children, in order to be an activist, in order to be a human who supports the values that I believe in, you know?

Sophia Bush (28:24)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (28:25)

So it's like you have to do it.

Sophia Bush (28:26)

You have to. And I think one of the things that's so important about that is to take time for joy. Not just because you as a human deserve it, but also because joy is fuel. How are you supposed to keep fighting oppression? How are you supposed to advocate for our equal protections under the law if you're just fried all the time?

Lake Bell (28:50)

I do think. Yeah, I think it is. I think joy is essential. I think that I'm trying to show my children. I mean, that's the other thing through the lens of being a parent and being able to show up for these young minds and say, hey, look, here's how I live my life. I hope that I can't say to you, read more books. If I don't read books, it's like, you must be a mirror and a model and thank God for them for that reason, you know, because I am also saying I will experience joy as well. Because part of the human condition, you know, sort of feeds on and needs joy. It needs sadness, it needs mourning, it needs activity. You know, all these things.

Sophia Bush (29:47)

When you think about all the things you've created, you know, characters and stories and, you know, from the books to the movies, and then you make this shift into writing a children's book. To me, it reads like such a love letter to your kid and to other people's kids. Was it easier, do you think, to do because you've written so much before, or did it almost feel like it had more weight because it's for her?

Lake Bell (30:13)

Well, it's interesting. I felt writing all about brains was very easy, intuitive and easy for me because it really was born from a place of listening. Nova was my daughter has epilepsy and I say she has epilepsy even though she is seizure free currently because she has a genetic mutation. And so once you kind of have seizures, you have just say you have epilepsy just for the sake of honoring your brain systems. Nova, because she has this genetic mutation, will always carry it. And how it has shown up for her from a neurological standpoint of how her brain functions and how she interacts with the world and interacts with academics and how she interacts with social, emotional interactions. It's present in a multitude of ways that are, you know, that sure you could write down on paper, but to live it, it feels so unique to her and it's what makes her great and what makes her a poet, you know, and all of those superpowers, those uniqueness, that unique, those unique qualities, as it were. When I look at her and I experience her as a little person who is coming up, the way she takes ownership of it and lives in it is what I think really inspired the book because of how she speaks about her neurological differences to her peers. And so it was so easy to kind of like listen and then digest and then yes, even as a screenwriter myself and how I sort of take on writing, which is through the lens of different characters, I could use her as that sort of beacon of little narrative.

Sophia Bush (32:22)

We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors.

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Sophia Bush (36:41)

Okay, so this makes me really curious. Loving words the way you do and grammar the way you do. What were the things that Nova started to say to you that made you realize, oh, that's. That's a new phrase. That's a new way of thinking? The way you experience your genetic makeup is something I want to write down.

Lake Bell (37:01)

She. There was a moment where she had a seizure and she apologized for it. And I think that it caused a massive reframe. Need to reframe the narrative of epilepsy in our lives and in our family. This is not something we apologize for. Right. Seizures, we explained to her, are electrical misfires really in the brain, that it's simply that all of our brains are comprised of this mysterious electrical energy that is hard to map out precisely. So anyway, with Nova, in explaining these electrical systems, she sort of digested that as, oh, there's this sparkling magic that's happening. So it's like this sparkle, right? This, like this sparkler that occurs. Cause that's electric. It looks electrical or something. You know, it has a sort of personality of something that is sort of bright and a speck of light, you know, and it feels special. It feels special, and it sounds special. So then her explaining it to peers is what I think got me really excited to think about, oh, how could I explain this? How could I show this experience, like Nova's experience, like her experiential sort of flavors of how she feels, what an epileptic convulsion feels like? That's interesting too. She would start to explain to me, oh. Cause I'd ask, I'm like, what does it feel like? I'm just curious. I've never had one.

Sophia Bush (38:53)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (38:54)

So here you are, a six year old, you're experiencing something I have never experienced. And she's like, okay, well, you know, she would explain that there was kind of a tingling in her mouth, so sparkling in the mouth kind of. And. And then that things go black and that she doesn't. So then she says she's out and then she comes back and she. All of her body is tired. So it was like, oh, this is such great information.

Sophia Bush (39:24)

Wow.

Lake Bell (39:25)

And then we started talking about it in this way of like this. You don't have to apologize for this. This means you're just operating on a level of you are like a shaman. Like you are when you have these sparkles. You got to let me know because that means you're sparkling more magic than I am right now. And maybe everyone in the room or maybe anyone on the block. So let me know, girl. Because when you're sparkling. Because I had to write it down anyway in a log. So when she would feel them. Come on. Because some seizures, just so you know, are like not all the big fancy grand mal ones where you fall down and it's a whole thing. There's also myoclonic seizures, which were the little mini ones that she would get, which were more stuttered in the mouth. So you like that?

Sophia Bush (40:13)

Yes.

Lake Bell (40:13)

So when you're trying to experience. Say something and trips up, it looks like an electrical.

Sophia Bush (40:20)

Like a. Yeah, like a glitch, A misfit. Yeah.

Lake Bell (40:24)

So she would have those. And then that was really interesting because I was like, okay, thank you so much for letting me know that you had a mini. You know. And she'd be like, I'm just like really smart today. I'm like, oh. You know. So it became that instead of sorry.

Sophia Bush (40:37)

But what an amazing thing that you as a parent, it. We're not only able to reframe it to. To get her out of the feeling of needing to apologize for herself, you know, because we all know the crazy research about how much women say sorry all the time. So to help stop that impulse, but also to take the fear away for her because you turning this into something sparkly, letting her know she's doing something and you want to know about it. To take that. What I would imagine at first caused a lot of terror and anxiety for your child and to help her feel powerful in her body instead, like, makes.

Lake Bell (41:22)

Me want to sob it's what the book is about. So it's like, me too. I mean, the second I saw her shift her perception of seizures and report one to me while she was in the other room, come running in and say, I'm smart today, you know, like, I'm fired on all cylinders, you know, I was like, oh, you have a mini all right, girl, look at you. You know, was such a great moment. And so I think that the book, with that same respect of our neurological differences that we all imbue in some shade, and that's my own feeling, is like I said to Nova, I say to Nova all the time, like, everybody's walking around here and everybody's got a thing. You know what I mean? You don't see it, but they've got it some shade of something. Of course I'm dyslexic. Like, I'm not running around going, I'm dyslexic.

Sophia Bush (42:18)

As an adult, I got diagnosed with adhd. I was like, wow, okay, so does Nova.

Lake Bell (42:23)

Nova.

Sophia Bush (42:23)

A lot of things really make more sense for me. I wish I'd known this as a kid. Sure, maybe I didn't have to white knuckle through the overachieving tendency of my neuroscience neurospiciness mixed with, like, growing up with an immigrant dad. Okay. But that, that was so special, even for me as an adult. Reading the book, as Nova opens up for our listeners at home to her class in this beautiful children's book, so many other kids in the class begin to share their thing.

Lake Bell (42:59)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (43:00)

And to read about her classmate sharing about her adhd, I was like, oh, my God, I needed this book. It made me feel so emo, even in my adult body. And what it really, I think beautifully reminds readers of is this thing you're saying that you remind your kid in the world that everyone's got their own particular brain. And I find it really refreshing in a time to relate to our earlier conversation, which might sound sad, but I think is actually really beautiful in a time when our exceptional leaps in our medical and psychological practices mean that more and more people learn what their thing is. Our advancements, our ability to see people is actually being attacked and it's being scapegoated so that people who want to make a bunch of money selling you non approved vitamins can convince you not to get the vaccines that you need. It drives me crazy, you know, because people want to talk about that, but they don't want to talk about the fact they, you know, they like to say, oh, pharma, is a billion dollar a year industry. And I'm like, yeah, the supplement industry is over $4 billion a year. So who do you think is grifting? The doctors or the people who don't have to adhere to medical standards? So it's like, for me, it's. It hit home, you know, you're not talking about politics in the book. You're in a kid's classroom.

Lake Bell (44:30)

Yeah, but we talk about meds, we talk about medication.

Sophia Bush (44:32)

Exactly. And what I loved is that without having to get overtly political, what you're doing as a mom is celebrating your own kid and everyone else's kids for whatever they are and how lucky they are to know what they are. Whether they have anxiety or one kid is on the autism spectrum, or your kid has epilepsy or another kid has adhd. They are being celebrated for the ways they see their world, their friends, their classroom, their teacher. And I just like. It really makes me want to cry.

Lake Bell (45:10)

It's beautiful. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like we are in a time where I think what keeps me up at night is not understanding how. I mean, the core of our humanity and what makes us human is caring for other humans and being in community with other bodies, regardless of their brains, their shapes, their colors. It's like we're, you know, I. Religions and I feel like anything short of ultimate, you know, I. Anything short of ultimate, but radical kindness and love is just like violent, you know, it's like I really look around and I'm just like, you know, yes, my book has this generosity of spirit as anything that I'm going to write in my life will always have that. Because I think of, you know, if I can impart anything, I mean, in the lives of young minds, but also in parents as well. I just feel exhausted with the idea that somehow it's radical to be inclusive. Yeah, it.

Sophia Bush (46:48)

What strikes me constantly is this is the whole point, the point of evolving as humans, of becoming a more globally connected society, of. Of having our most successful social media app be for picture sharing so you can see where and how other people live. The whole point is to be nicer to each other and people can sell this really old world tribalism through fear. And I'm like, wouldn't it be so much nicer for us all to not be afraid and just, I don't know, be able to go to the doctor and breathe clean air? Like, doesn't that just sound better?

Lake Bell (47:31)

Yeah. I mean, I was just talking about this with a friend of mine who's an activist and it's like, you know, the systems. You know, it's like, ah, we want to burn the systems down. I'm like, the systems are like a knot. It's like your hair. It's like knotted hair. They're tiny, tiny knots. It's not like you can sit down in an afternoon and kind of like undo them. Right. And there's thousands and millions of them, these systems, you know?

Sophia Bush (47:57)

Yes.

Lake Bell (47:57)

So we have to be within the systems, radically conscientious and active and. And kind and. And unrelent, you know, relentless with our radical compassion.

Sophia Bush (48:22)

Yeah. I think about it, you know, the difference, I would say, from becoming an activist in my twenties and the version of that for me today, is to use your knot analogy. It's not just that it's knotted like your hair. It's your hair. If you burn it down, you burn with it.

Lake Bell (48:41)

Yeah.

Sophia Bush (48:41)

And so the most radical kind of care is to sit with people and help them untangle knot.

Lake Bell (48:46)

Untangle the knot. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (48:48)

And I actually think that when you're younger and less patient, the idea of burning a whole system down sounds cool. But when you, as you get older and you actually learn to hold more things to be true at the same.

Lake Bell (49:01)

Time, it's nuanced for sure.

Sophia Bush (49:03)

The nuance matters. And actually, the way to be radical is to stay in the fight for your whole life.

Lake Bell (49:09)

Yes.

Sophia Bush (49:09)

I think about activism and also using voice.

Lake Bell (49:12)

Right. Like coming back to voice.

Sophia Bush (49:14)

Yes. But I think about activism as the longest marriage I'll ever be in. Right. You know, I am dedicated to this place and how we leave it for our kids, first and foremost. And if you treat your activism like your greatest love story, it's also gonna be ugly sometimes. It's gonna be. It's gonna require patience and, like, disappointing sometimes. Yeah, that's. That's what I want. And I. I. You know, someone. Some might say it's ironic for two divorced women to be sitting here having this conversation, but I actually think it's part of how I. How I came to that analogy, because I went, oh, I get it. This is the thing that I will actually be the most patient with. I'm much more willing to wake up one day and say, oh, I'm in the wrong thing, and move along for myself. But for us, I'm like, oh, no, I am married to this country. You can't get rid of me. You are stuck with me forever.

Lake Bell (50:12)

I'm married to. I think it's interesting when you talk about that, the activism. Well, you say, I'm married to this country, right. And I'm like, I think this planet maybe. Yeah, maybe I'm married. I'm married to the, to the planet and to the, you know, to humanity, Right? Where it's like I can't, first of all, I can't unsee what we've seen. Right.

Sophia Bush (50:37)

Not possible.

Lake Bell (50:38)

And I am in solidarity with you. I feel the same way. I do think that. But I'm kind of thinking, why is it so ironic, the two divorced women talking about that? I actually think it makes all the sense in the world. I'm so grateful to be in this space now at my age. I'm in my 40s and I know who I am and I understand that that little activist was inside me my whole life and showing up in different ways and feeling like I wasn't invited to the party of activism. I wasn't even allowed to be participatory in it. It didn't feel like I, I mean, my mom was definitely showing me some forms of activism, but I think that, how great that we get to write our own path and then use our voices to be betrothed to this, you know, to the cause of all bodies, you know.

Sophia Bush (51:51)

Yeah. And now for our sponsors.

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Sophia Bush (56:08)

So much of your work in equity, you have focused in our industry for women and with women in film and everything that you do, how did you find that kind of home for yourself?

Lake Bell (56:24)

It's interesting. I've served on the board for nine years and then I had to cycle out Women in Film. And I had such a tremendous experience there, I think, realizing that obviously culture moves with culture, right? So in order to really move things from, you know, in a way that alter how people think or open the minds of how people think, we have to utilize storytelling. And so it felt like Women in Film was and is still an organization really worth supporting because it's helping create culture. And so there are these and also highlighting where there are massive inequities within our industry, which is the industry that I love and care about about. I think as I have expanded and had to cycle off of the board, I still support Women in Film tremendously. And now I am, I'm working with Women for Women International, who I love. And I stay within organizations that I think are empowering and building a positive system of support for women in their communities where they are marginalized, but also just without infrastructure. So I think that's where my voice and life force energy lie. And also, so I'm with you and looking around and seeing the gross discrimination of our within our country and the pain and oppression that has been here for since this country was founded that is just loud and front and center.

Sophia Bush (58:30)

Is it kind of crazy to you that we've essentially had one generation of virtual, I'm not gonna say actual equity for men and women, but like closer than ever before, you know, like, my mom couldn't get a credit card without a man's permission until 1974, right? So we're really the first generation. You know, granted, we know women get funded less. We know our movies get made less, like anywhere, whatever. We know, we know all the stats, but I'm like, God, we just started to get like a little bit of freedom. We had one generation of us who could get a credit card and file for a no fault divorce. And now y' all want to roll it back. Are you that scared of us?

Lake Bell (59:08)

I mean, I mean, even, you know, there is such flagrant misogyny and White supremacy in this country that is baked into the bedrock of so many of our systems that it is like, I think if anything, it's most recent that the awakening of us all realizing certainly as white bodies to realize that this has been going on from day one. It's like when you have the privilege of not, you know, people who say, oh, you know, I'm not really political. And I'm like, well, that's because the system's working for you.

Sophia Bush (60:06)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (60:07)

Okay.

Sophia Bush (60:07)

You don't have to be, that's a.

Lake Bell (60:09)

Privilege to not be political. So I think understanding that and being thoughtful and not being overly self righteous, you know, but the idea that you're just like, I'm aware and I'm wanting to be a part of educating myself and being supportive of, of, of real and true equity.

Sophia Bush (60:33)

Yeah. And, and realizing that the scarcity mentality.

Lake Bell (60:38)

Yes.

Sophia Bush (60:39)

Lie. And when you feel like, oh God, if, if we achieve this, will I lose? That's what they want you to feel.

Lake Bell (60:46)

Yeah. I mean, and it's like, no, if.

Ryan Seacrest (60:48)

We win, we all win.

Lake Bell (60:50)

Yeah. If, if, if some are not free, then we're not free.

Sophia Bush (60:55)

Yeah. Because then it's just an illusion.

Lake Bell (60:58)

Yeah. It's like, but you have to really, I mean, certainly I think in our generation too, I think that like you said, there is this, oh, we got to, we can vote and we can.

Sophia Bush (61:11)

Get, look, we won all these rights and now they're set. It's like, they're not set. We gotta hold onto them.

Lake Bell (61:17)

You gotta hold onto them. And then also be aware that so many other marginalized groups are in a constant state and have never. Still, still not thriving. So it's like, God damn it. You know, it's like we have so much work to do, but then at least we have megaphones, you know, And I, you know, I really try to, even in non megaphone ways, I try to like live my values as I walk down the street and sit in the subway and who, who, you know, like how I interact, how I pick up the trash from the, you know, to help this old woman across the street, you know, like trying to show. And also with my children, I'm like, yeah, this is who we are. Okay. Yeah, it's like, this is where you're from.

Sophia Bush (62:09)

Okay, totally. So, yeah, it's little things. It's like, it's funny that you say, you know, you pick up the trash or you do this thing, you set an example when no one's watching also because it's who you are. You live your values and the other day, I was on a couple of planes last week and I had a layover in Denver.

Lake Bell (62:29)

Flex.

Sophia Bush (62:30)

Yeah, you know, sick layover was great. And I went to the restroom in the airport as one does. And you know, it's like midday. The whole countertop in between, every sink is wet. And I had like a three hour layover and I got extra paper towels and just started like drying up the countertop. And I saw this woman at the other end of the counter, like, kind of look at me, and I saw her pause. I was doing the thing where I was really watching out of my peripheral, which I think I've gotten good at. Cause it's like, on set, I need to know when the person I'm not supposed to see is coming. So I turn at the correct time for camera, you know, to not up the shot. It's so stupid, but I'm like, ooh, I have a really wide purview here.

Lake Bell (63:11)

Me too.

Sophia Bush (63:12)

And I like, see her. And she takes a beat and then she gets a couple paper towels and starts drying. And we literally met in the middle of the counter and looked at each other and just nodded and like, went about our day.

Lake Bell (63:23)

That's some girl too.

Sophia Bush (63:24)

It was. Oh, girlhood is my. It's my. That's some, like, just my joy.

Lake Bell (63:29)

These counter topsied.

Sophia Bush (63:30)

We were like, you know, we did a nice thing and nobody saw us. But I saw you and you saw me, and this is cool.

Lake Bell (63:36)

Yeah, and it's like, she's a huge One Tree Hill fan too, by the way.

Sophia Bush (63:40)

If she was, she played it so cool, I'd have no idea. But like, it's just little things are capable of having such a ripple effect. And you can pause and be generous in your space at any time.

Lake Bell (63:54)

It's so true. And I feel like, look, not every day. Some days you're gonna be like, I'm pissy today.

Sophia Bush (63:59)

Oh, totally. Some days you're the nightmare person at the airport. But, like, we try.

Lake Bell (64:04)

But for the majority of the time. Yeah, I mean, you know people. I say to my kids too, I'm like 99.9% of the people as you walk down the street are good. Yeah, they are. I. I mean, I'm just telling you there's a, you know, point one percent. Okay. That are like, born bad, I guess. I don't know, whatever that means. It means maybe like, you know, they want to harm or something, but otherwise, I mean, people are pretty good. They're gonna look different than you. They might have differences. Like, you got differences. And it's okay. I'm just telling you, you don't have to, like, fear the world. Yeah, okay. Because this is the problem. We're growing up because I have to. I have to manage myself as well.

Sophia Bush (64:48)

Where it's like.

Lake Bell (64:51)

You know, how do I not fear the world? You know, we have so much anxiety. We're reading in the news, and you're just like, there's a thousand ways to die today for everyone.

Sophia Bush (65:06)

Yeah.

Lake Bell (65:07)

And it's just like, Jesus Christ.

Sophia Bush (65:09)

And you gotta combat it.

Lake Bell (65:11)

But you take a nap.

Sophia Bush (65:13)

Then once a month, you take a nap.

Lake Bell (65:15)

Once a month, you take. Well, maybe once a week, if you can.

Sophia Bush (65:18)

I think it's really cool, though, that you. It sounds to me like you are constantly able to claim the good, not just for yourself, but because you're also modeling it for your kids.

Lake Bell (65:33)

Yeah, I think it's kids. But then it's also like, oh, like you said, you guys were wiping down those counters, and there's just something about. That woman's gonna. Then walk on to her. You felt better, right, that you had a comrade in that. And you go, I believe in society. And. Yeah.

Sophia Bush (65:49)

I'm like, see? People are good.

Lake Bell (65:50)

Yeah. So you're having that feeling. She's having that feeling, and then she's gonna. You know, that's gonna ripple, like you said, to. To the person she's sitting next to, you know, in Denver or whatever. So the point is, I. I'm with you. I think that when you feel helpless, it's like, yes, you're gonna do all the. You're gonna go to the protest. You're gonna go. So you're gonna call your representative, you're going to write a check, if you can. You're gonna buy a T shirt in support of X, Y, or Z, and then you're gonna pick up that piece of trash, you're gonna wipe down a counter, you're gonna smile, you're gonna have a conversation. I had a conversation with a guy who came onto the subway and just was immediately wanted to start talking about the subway cars and the models of the subway cars. He was the delivery guy. But, boy, he had all the answers.

Sophia Bush (66:38)

Sounds like the little boy in your boat.

Lake Bell (66:40)

Yes, totally. There was. Totally. And I was thinking, you know, I'm always under the impression that, like, since I have some neurodiversity, you have some. Everybody in this room has some neurodiversity. They're looking at us. Wrap it up.

Sophia Bush (66:51)

Sid's like, huh?

Lake Bell (66:53)

But the point is, like, the whole. This man walks in, clearly he's got some stuff going on. And I'm like, let's get into it. I was like, you're kidding me. This was born. Okay, so these were made in Japan. What parts were made in Japan? We just went into it, put down my book, and we just, like, had a great conversation. And, you know, the New Yorker in me is like, this is what I fall in love with. New York every time I'm here for that reason, because me too. You can, like, participate with the city or you can sit back. It's there for the taking, but you.

Sophia Bush (67:29)

Can engage or watch.

Lake Bell (67:31)

Totally.

Sophia Bush (67:32)

And I like that you can do whatever you want on any given day. And I like that you got the encyclopedic coverage of the subway car seat.

Lake Bell (67:39)

I really didn't realize. I was like, oh, yeah, the ones with the orange and the yellow seats. That's different make and model, right? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I had to really get it.

Sophia Bush (67:47)

Those are my favorite.

Lake Bell (67:48)

I know.

Sophia Bush (67:48)

The, like 70s Technicolor subway cars are my favorite.

Lake Bell (67:51)

Those are good ones. Those are usually. Yeah, those go deep.

Sophia Bush (67:54)

I love it. Okay, we have to take a subway ride before you go home.

Lake Bell (67:57)

Oh, indeed. And I'm gonna do it tonight, honestly, after this.

Sophia Bush (68:00)

Same. So tell the people. I know we're coming up on time, because my poor producer is like, ladies, you're not at lunch. Stop talking. But tell the people where to find the book, where to find the audiobook, even though I know it's been a minute since it came out. But it's my favorite. And about the new show. And then I promise I'll let you go on the subway.

Lake Bell (68:25)

So first, All About Brains is the children's book that you can purchase on pretty much any bookseller right now, also at Simon and Schuster, kids. But then, yeah, I mean, you could go into the Barnes and Nobles, as it were. You could go on a mega site, which I will not even mention.

Sophia Bush (68:44)

Nope. Go to bookshop.org.

Lake Bell (68:47)

Yeah, you can go to Libra or whatever. But yeah, you can go to a multitude of.

Sophia Bush (68:53)

Of local small bookshops and Strand if you're in Manhattan. One of the best.

Lake Bell (69:00)

Yeah, yeah. It's actually. It's kind of. It's everywhere. And I highly recommend it. And the age range, because a lot of people ask me that is anywhere from, like, 4 years old to 12, basically. But obviously you also enjoyed it. You're a full grown woman.

Sophia Bush (69:17)

Yeah, it made me cry. So that's cool. The age range goes well past 42.

Lake Bell (69:21)

Everyone well past 42 do so. And then Inside Voice, my obsession with how we sound, is an audiobook that I highly recommend. Did it with Pushkin. It's still available with Malcolm Gladwell's Pushkin, but also on, I believe, on Audible and anywhere you can get your sort of audiobook. So that's a fun listen. Lots of really exciting interviews and whatnot with some of the most iconic voices. And then the show that I'm doing is called the Chair Company with Tim Robinson. Great comedian that I adore, and I'm so jazzed to be a part of this series. It comes out on HBO in the fall.

Sophia Bush (70:04)

I can't wait. I'm so excited. So we're caught up on all of the work. And for my last question for you, it can be a work thing, but it might also be a personal thing. You got a lot kind of cooking at the moment. When you look at the sort of landscape of life right now, what feels like your work in progress?

Lake Bell (70:27)

My work in progress will be forever. Being a parent, I think being an activist, those two are in me, whether I like it or not, on a cellular level, on a daily, from the second I wake up in the morning, as I go to sleep at night, you know, these are the. Those are the two tenants of my work in progress as a person, I would say as a woman, but I think just as a person. And so I know they're both a privilege too, you know, the privilege, as you spoke of, to evolve, but really to evolve within these tenants of activism and mothering and being what it is to be a present. And I'm not going to say good mother, because I think that's unfair. I think just to be a presentation mother with love, you know, And I'll let you know if that changes at all.

Sophia Bush (71:40)

I think it's really beautiful. Thank you.

Lake Bell (71:43)

God, I gotta stretch.

Sophia Bush (72:01)

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Lake Bell (74:51)

This is an iHeart podcast.