← Work in Progress with Sophia Bush
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Sophia Bush
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hi friends and listeners. Welcome back to another Work in Progress. It is definitely a week for the whip smarties. I know y'all are engaged, I know you care about what's going on in the world, and let's be frank. S been wild. I decided to call two of my absolute favorite men in America to ask them what the hell is going on and I feel so lucky that they are both joining us today. Congressman Eric Swalwell is here and one of my best friends and one of the most brilliant Democratic strategists I know, Jordan Brown is here as well. Eric is an absolute legend. He represents the people of California, 14th congressional district up in the East Bay. He has served on the House Intelligence Committee, overseen the CIA on that committee. He has helped lead the House in their investigation into Russia's interference in the 2016 election, the first and second impeachments of Donald Trump. He was on the house floor on January 6th and has done incredible work standing up for our law enforcement officers who were harmed on that day. He currently serves on the House Judiciary and Homeland Security, which is why I really wanted to talk to him about Signalgate. And he is the chairman emeritus and founder of Future Forum, a group of young Democratic members that are focused on issues and opportunities for millennial Americans. He's also a dad, a husband, and an absolute lovely friend. And then we get on to Jordan. He is one of the most brilliant political strategists that works at the intersection of politics, technology and entertainment. He really works to drive progressive social change. And for more than 15 years, he has advised local, state and national political campaigns from Secretary John Kerry's campaign in 04, the Obama campaign in 2008 and 2012, and for a few years even advising Hillary Clinton. He is absolutely brilliant at gathering people to ensure that everyone in our country has a seat at the table. He's helped advance legislation and advocacy campaigns for issues that run such a diverse spectrum spectrum. Cancer prevention, self esteem, LGBTQ rights, gun violence, mental health, poverty, immigration, HIV prevention, and more. And as if he's not busy enough, he is a member of the policy and advocacy committee of Global Citizen, working to end extreme poverty by 2030. He is an advisor to Represent Us, a bipartisan organization that brings together conservatives and progressives to pass anti corruption laws. And he's on the board of Lift Communities, an organization that partners with working parents to break the intergenerational cycle of extreme poverty. He is also a husband and a father to a new baby boy who is so sweet. Oof. I can't wait to talk to both of these gentlemen about how they balance it all and what the we're all supposed to do two months in to this new administration and you know, the daily horrors. Let's dig into what's really happening, what deserves our focus and how we remain both, both engaged and hopeful with Eric and Jordan. Gentlemen, I am so glad you are both here today. Jordan, you are one of my best friends, always one of my first calls, whether about life or certainly democracy. And Eric, you have become not only are you someone in the political landscape that I look up to, whose takes I always know I can trust, who tells your voters and Americans around the country the truth, but thanks to Jordan, you've also become a friend. And the fact that I get to text you when I have questions still makes me feel like deeply cool. I think about 20 year old me in journalism school at Annenberg knowing that this is my life now and it's pretty crazy. So bless you both for coming. Obviously everything's nuts. We are two months into an administration that seems to be taking a slash and burn approach to everything that is holy about America. Our Constitution, our morals, our values, our not only even our power, but our soft power, which I think has changed the world for the better in. In recent decades. Certainly. I have so many questions for you guys about how we got here, but quickly so our friends who are listening can get to know a little bit about you. Will you each tell us a little bit about your jobs today, you know, what you do, what keeps you busy and how you two first connected.
- [05:59]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah, buddy, I work in Congress. I've been doing this for about 13 years. I guess I was a child sent to Congress, but before that I was a prosecutor and before that I was a congressional intern when I was 20 years old and was here when September 11th happened. Kind of opened my eyes and led me to leave like an athletic scholarship after interning here for a summer, and never thought I'd spend this much time here. Actually have thought a couple different ways that I would, you know, maybe be doing something else. But Donald Trump and his just threat to all of our freedoms and what I think makes this country so special just makes me think, I can't leave. I can't leave the fight. Like, you're in the fight, Jordan. You're in the fight. We're all in it in our own unique way. And this is the most effective way I think that I can help the people I represent. My district's in the East Bay up in Northern California. Everything from essentially Fremont, California, up to San Leandro and then out to wine country in Livermore. And Jordan and I met as everyone meets when they don't know each other in Southern California, which is over pickleball. And we've had some pretty spirited, intense pickleball matches. I love that his husband Colton has been a part of that as well. And. And then my wife Brittany, you know, has also been able to meet Jordan and Colton, whether at the DNC or just through friends. But Jordan, what I admire about Jordan is he's. He's a doer. Like, he is a let's get shit done kind of person and only wants to use active verbs as far as, like, what are you going to do to fix this?
- [07:57]
Sophia Bush
I love that.
- [07:58]
Eric Swalwell
It's.
- [07:59]
Jordan Brown
It's a real. It really is an honor. I don't use that word lightly to be with both of you. And so if, you know, I adore you and it has been so much fun even during the toughest times, that, you know, I think for both of us being the same age and sort of growing up together, we never really thought that we would go backwards like this. And, you know, we were at the Obama inauguration together, and I still laugh at those photos of those two kids who were like, everything's just going to keep getting better all the time. And, you know, half the.
- [08:30]
Sophia Bush
We did it. Yeah.
- [08:32]
Jordan Brown
And now I think, you know, we know that nobody really gets, you know, a full lifetime without this kind of backwards thing. And so this is the fight. And I think the wisest people among us sort of know that and have taught us how to do this. And Congressman, it's. It's an honor to call you a friend. And I've admired you long before we met in person. And there's. Youth is not something that comes up a lot when we talk about the people running this country. And for all of the wisdom that we're grateful for among our elders. We have seen in so many painful and sad ways over the last five or ten years in both parties what happens to our country and how it can grind to a halt or have really awful consequences when people who are not healthy and in their prime are in positions of great power. And so for somebody to have gotten to where you are as young as you were and still are, and to be a leader in this fight means so much. And there's just a handful of people like you that are kind of in that bucket. One of them we were just talking about before we started recording is on the Senate floor right now. You know, our friend and someone we all love, Senator Booker. And you have been a really clear, clarion voice in the last 70 something days since Trump returned to the White House in, in saying, this is not right, this is not normal, and here's what we gotta do.
- [10:02]
Eric Swalwell
So, you know, it's funny, Jordan, Sophia, I ran when I was 31 and I ran against a guy who had been in Congress for 40 years and he was 81. And I was probably a little, in some of the ways that I was, you know, trying to contrast the age.
- [10:19]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [10:19]
Eric Swalwell
Showing my energy against, like someone who completely had checked out, like, didn't show up for votes in Washington, didn't pay any attention to his constituents. And I learned in that campaign that he had run when he was 40 and he had beaten somebody in their 80s.
- [10:39]
Sophia Bush
Wow.
- [10:40]
Eric Swalwell
So as I look at it, like my district for essentially 80 years before I got there was represented by people who stayed way too long. So to me, it's like, it's staring me in the face, Jordan, as to, like, what you just said, like, don't be the guy that sticks around too long. Like, get in there, get stuff done, get out. And I think that's the hardest part of, like, this job is that people don't know when that is and people around us don't feel that they have the permission structure to tell you that.
- [11:16]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And not only is it so important, I think, for folks in our peer group to see these trends and to say, oh, I'm not going to do that thing. I'm going to make sure that I'm helping with turnover. I'm going to make sure that I'm fostering spaces where new ideas or evolving ideas can be heard. I also think it's so important to make sure you're training the next generation of leaders alongside you, people who can learn from your expertise. Like, listen, there have been negotiations that nobody could have gotten done. But Nancy Pelosi and I want to know who is being trained to be our Pelosi. I want to know who you're going to have your eye on in the next 10 years to say you should have your eyes, ears, and future on this district. It's so important, I think, too, not that it's a stigma even, but in a way to destigmatize the idea that politics is someone else's job.
- [12:24]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because in my. The end of my first term, Speaker Pelosi told me she wanted to speak to me on the floor. And I remember being so nervous and going over to talk to her and didn't really know if I was being called to the principal's office. What was this about? And she told me, she said, you know, there are enough young members now in Congress that I think you should bring them together as a group and go lead them and go around the country, talk to young people, and then come back and tell your colleagues what you've learned.
- [13:04]
Sophia Bush
Wow.
- [13:05]
Eric Swalwell
And then the next term, she would appoint me to be the youngest, like, least junior person on the Intelligence Committee. And then she would make me what's called the steering and policy chair, like the person who chairs the committee that puts everyone on committees. And so I had the opportunity to sit next to her and I. And she, you know, there's still such a deep power divide between, like, what she was able to do and what I was able to do. But I saw in Speaker Pelosi, not just with me, but others, that if you wanted to learn, she would meet you there.
- [13:50]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, learn. That's really cool.
- [13:53]
Jordan Brown
Her.
- [13:53]
Eric Swalwell
Her advice was always, if you don't ask, you don't get. And she often would say, if you don't buy a lottery ticket, you're never going to win the lottery. So that was kind of telling me, like, you have to seek these opportunities, and then when you're around people like her and others like, you can't help but learn. But that was a pretty. Like, that was a big disparity in, like, my junior status in the Congress and, like, the leader of our party. And I. And I soaked it up as much as I could, but I didn't really have anyone between myself and Speaker Pelosi. And so what I have tried to do with the newer members is to be the person between them and Hakeem, who is our leader, because Hakeem has, like, limited bandwidth, he can't do that with every member. And so last Congress, for example, I went out of my way because I saw this young, talented member of Congress who was just lighting up these congressional hearings and her name is Jasmine Crockett. And Jordan's smiling because I've since introduced Jordan to Jasmine and took her out for dinner one night and I said, like, let's not even talk about Congress, the job. Let's talk about, like, life and how you do life. Because that's what no one taught me when I had first gotten here.
- [15:10]
Sophia Bush
Oh, that's so special.
- [15:12]
Eric Swalwell
I do feel like a responsibility to try and not just use one hand to reach up and find mentors, but use the other hand to, you know, reach down to people who have just arrived at, you know, where I've been and try and help them. And I don't know about you, but I find that I still learn and grow and find fulfillment and trying to.
- [15:32]
Sophia Bush
Help others, of course. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.
- [15:42]
T Mobile Ad
Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid cart. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepand switch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service support in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.
- [16:19]
Sophia Bush
I think there's such value to intergenerational friendships and to having intergenerational mentors, you know, and we're all in this really sweet spot of our lives right now where we have both. You know, I have folks who are older than me and wiser than me that I call on, and I have folks that are younger than me who I learned so much from and they really, you know, transcend industry, political spectrum. And I think that's really important and I'm curious about it for you in particular, Eric and Jordan, even, you know, knowing what I know about how you grew up, this willingness to reach across divides and learn and with new information, change your mind, but also to require that things we know to be true are treated as such really stands out to me for you, Congressman, because I know you were raised in a very Republican household. You know, your dad was a cop. You grew up in that space. And I'm really curious how you felt free enough to change your mind. And to say, oh, you know, I agree with policies that take care of people and that's happening in a different party than the one I was raised in. How did you make that shift? How did that go over with your family? And then, Jordan, can you talk to us a little bit about your own experiences, you know, as a kid and how you found your way into this Democratic space?
- [17:55]
Eric Swalwell
My parents would say that the only, the reason I'm the only Democrat in the family is because I'm the first one in the family to go to college and that I was brainwashed by those liberal. But frankly, I, I don't think my parents values are that much different than mine. Except that what I observed in them and I talk to my parents every week and visit them as often as I can, but they, they very much, I think are Republicans who kind of lead with what they don't like about Democrats as the Republican Party that they loved in the 80s, like the Reagan Republican Party completely changes and has abandoned that. I just hear from them and other family members more of like what they don't like about Democrats. And so just by default, they're not voting for Democrats, they're voting Republicans. And I thought, well, like, what I like about our party is like, who we're for and is someone who grew up, you know, going to 11 different schools and living in 13 different houses. Before I graduated college, I saw two parents who worked hard and expected that they would do better and dream bigger. But I only saw one party that actually sought, you know, to advance that, like in education, you know, in like ultimately you know, cost of college and to work and retirement security. Republicans offering anything on that. But what I learned by being raised by Republicans, one thing I've learned, and I think this is something my, I think my colleagues need to understand is we often say as Democrats that, you know, Republicans, any appeal they make to, you know, working class Americans or blue collar Americans or poor Americans is asking them to vote against their interests. We say that all the time. Like, why would they want to vote against their interest? Yeah, my parents would tell you that their interest was not being poor and their interest was not being in the middle class. And whether that was realistic or not, like, their interest was being like wealthy and they didn't want to like be renters, they wanted to be homeowners and have like, you know, nice vacations and not have to worry about money. And I think sometimes Democrats are seen by people like my parents as like, we want to keep people in the status that they're in. And we'll support you there, but we don't want you to be ambitious. And, and so I, I have tried in my own talk about issues is to say, you know what, I, I root for success. I want you to be wealthy, rich. I just want everyone to have the same chance at doing it. I want a free market economy, not a free for all economy. But I think that helps us connect with, you know, working class folks like my parents, who aspire to get out of like the status that they were in.
- [20:57]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, gosh, I've never really thought about it in that way because it seems so obvious to me that if we're fighting for social programs and free education and making sure kids can eat in school and making sure your drinking water is safe, like, it's because we want you to be healthy enough and supported enough to advance in your life. It's wild to hear that to so many people. The, the policies we're trying to enact that allow for advancement make people afraid that they might stagnate.
- [21:31]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah. And I think it's that because that's a feeling that you just want to keep me here and you don't want to see my advancement or, or wow, against the. You or you go on a crusade against the rich. And so therefore, like you want, when you say you're for the middle class, you want me to always be in the middle class.
- [21:50]
Sophia Bush
Wow, that's so interesting. I'm like, no, I want everybody to do well. I just want rich people to pay their taxes.
- [21:57]
Eric Swalwell
Correct.
- [21:58]
Sophia Bush
That's like literally all I want. Was it really eye opening for you, like, you know, being a kid in the Bakersfield area and then having jobs that, you know, take you to D.C. and you live in LA and you have to be on the east coast all the time. Like, do you feel like understanding smaller city sector life so personally helps you remember the kinds of things the Congressman's talking about?
- [22:26]
Jordan Brown
Yes is the short answer. The, the longer answer is, I think, you know, it's more informed by the people I grew up with than the place I grew up, you know, and so I grew up in a small town in the Central Valley near, near Bakersfield. And it's. I grew up in a very, you know, a conservative Christian household, but I think it's important to point out that in the 80s and 90s, that looked much different than it does now. My parents went to church and they voted, but there was not 24 hour news on in the House. There were not breaking news alerts, and between elections, they didn't think much about who was president or speaker of the House. And it was not something that dominated my childhood or our lives. And I also have these really clear memories of coming home in high school when, before my own political identity had formed and before I sort of came to terms with being gay. And I had gotten yard signs from a friend's house for these propositions, two of them that were in the late 90s on the ballot in California. One was a really draconian measure that was anti immigration, but really inhumane and awful. And the other was that marriage was between a man and a woman, putting that in the Constitution. And my mom said, I don't want those in my yard. And this is a Republican Christian woman. And I was like, wait, what do you mean? I got it from this friend's house. And isn't that what we believe? And she's like, I don't, you know, people can live how they want to live, and we, you know, whatever. Like, I don't want to put those in my yard. And I was like. And it was my first time kind of remembering. And, you know, my. This is my mom who has since left the Republican Party because, you know, she didn't agree with. With where it was going. And I think, you know, my story is part of this, like, larger journey where, like, you now have a lot of people on the right, I think, who are confused that this country was founded as a Christian country, because we are. We're really headed that way to the point where I find myself getting in debates on social media with people who are like, yes, we're getting back to our Christian roots. And it's like, you missed the entire point of why the people who founded this country did so. Yeah, so you can be a Christian and I can choose to not be, or I could be Buddhist or whatever else.
- [24:42]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, it's. It's the antithesis, actually, of a Christian nation. But people miss the. The fine print, I guess.
- [24:49]
Jordan Brown
And I. Yeah, so I guess what I feel. And when I think back to, like, all the people I grew with, they're wonderful people, they're hardworking. Many of the kids I grew up with served in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of them work tough jobs and, you know, a prison system that's, like, really in need of reform, but still, like, you know, or. Or other, like, working class, like, manual labor jobs. And they're not, you know, I think there's just this assumption they probably all voted for Trump and they don't. There is something that feels to me like, what I don't understand the most and I'm seeking to understand is to me, a lot of the people on the right who are driven by their religion to vote for Trump seem to believe that their religion is under attack when what it seems like to me is they just want everyone else to have the same religion they have. So that when I think about where I grew up, all of those things are sort of swirling around and, you know, sort of feel like inform the way that I'm taking in what's happening in this moment.
- [25:54]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors.
- [25:59]
T Mobile Ad
Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to 800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.
- [26:36]
Sophia Bush
It's an interesting thing, certainly for me. You know, my, my, my, my full time job is not politics. I, I have a calling, I believe, to use my platform and ability as, you know, a storyteller and a communicator to help people understand this stuff. I'm passionate about it. And yeah, it is tough when the sort of live and let live seems to have been lost. And this iron fist, you do it our way, you, you copy these things, you know, very Handmaid's Tale vibe seems to be everywhere. It's, it's scary to me. I think part of it is because it seems like what's happening is being downplayed. It seems like what's up is down. It seems like not just that the double standards have gotten so crazy, but that, that we have really lost the plot on facts. And I think the facts, you know, fact, science, truth, constitution, kind of have to be the foundation of the house. Like we've all got to have a foundation based on justice, not someone's opinion about their faith. Because to your point, Jordan, you can't rule that way. Because then what if someone who had a faith that isn't your faith was ruling? How would you feel about that? Like we need the law to sort of be our spot. And it seems like there's a lot of lawlessness going on that I can't quite Understand, because as a, as a citizen, as a constern, a concerned constituent, it feels like no matter how you vote, some of this stuff should bother you. I think number one, this signal leak, which by the way, just for our friends at home, Jordan and Eric and I scheduled this chat. I was like, can y'all just give me and the listeners some perspective on, you know, this first 60 to 90 days of this new administration. And then highly classified top secret information was leaked on a non, non secured devices, on personal phones, on a social media app. And then people tried to say it wasn't a big deal. And I was like, huh, so can we start there? I mean, a couple of facts I just have to list for the people. High ranking officials in the administration shared war plans on a group chat, again on a social media app. Not secure plans that are not meant to be viewed or discussed outside of a skiff. And they accidentally put a journalist on the group chat. Like, this is the kind of embarrassing drunk thing you might do in college when you put the person whose surprise party you're planning on the chat at 2am or like, I don't know, that's a very positive, you know, what if, what does this mean? And, and what is what is true?
- [29:51]
Jordan Brown
I just wish everyone who's listening could see the resigned face you just made. You put your hands over your eyes.
- [29:58]
Sophia Bush
I'm like, literally, I'm like, how do I even ask the question? This is so insane. I can't believe it's happening.
- [30:05]
Eric Swalwell
Well, it shows one like how dumb they are and should not be in charge of our safety, right? Like prime, my first job, no matter what I do, is to keep the people I represent safe. Like when we don't feel safe, nothing else can happen, right? Nothing. You can't have commerce, you can't have education, you can't do anything else until you feel safe. So that's the President's first job, is to make us safe. And these idiots failed that test. Then they lied about it, right? They compounded their inability to keep us safe by just gaslighting the American people about it. And they did it as if, like there would be no penalty for it at all. And they've been proven right because my Republican colleagues don't want to talk about it at all. And I'll say, like, I think my Democratic colleagues like have, with what little resources we have, being in the minority, have a lot of resources as far as like communication and building public sentiment certainly have elevated, you know, that these guys are not going to keep us safe. I do want to say, though, is as dark as it feels right now, public sentiment is working. For example, you're seeing on the president's like, big beautiful bill, as he keeps calling it, where he's going to take, you know, $900 billion and give tax cuts to the wealthiest people. And, you know, no one that we know or anyone who needs help is going to get it. It's going to be a billionaire bro tax package. Public sentiment has been so hard and so strongly against that that there are already stories this week that they're actually considering raising the highest income level bracket. So to anyone who's like, does any of this matter? You know, what are you going to do? We can't wait for the midterms. Like, we're already seeing that, you know, the public sentiment, like protesting and being engaged and whatever the outcome is going to be in Wisconsin and Florida, I think it's going to go our way, that it's moving the administration and it's affecting what they're going to do, which to me just means we can't stop, we can't let up. Same thing in the courts. We've won nearly 40 cases in the courts. And so what are they doing? Right? They're trying to impeach judges now because they see that, oh, they have found an effective path, not just Democratic appointed judges, but judges appointed by Reagan and Bush and yes, are siding with us. And so the courts can be speed bumps. And I say all of this because we essentially have to live. We have to allow democracy to live long enough so it can hopefully live forever. That means get through these court cases, win in Wisconsin, when in New Jersey and Virginia and the governor's races this year, have the electoral infrastructure where you can have free and fair elections in the midterms. Win the midterms and then cut our time in.
- [33:21]
Sophia Bush
Hell, yes, in half. But here's what drives me crazy, Congressman, and you said it. There seems to be no accountability. Pete Hegseth, Tulsi Gabbard, these people perjured themselves under oath testifying to elected officials about what was in that group chat. Donald Trump is trying to impeach judges that are impartial and he's calling them Obama judges, Democrat judges. You said it. Some of them were appointed by President Bush. They, they are weaponizing identity and, and they are lying about it. And I, I am frustrated as a citizen because calling for the impeachment of judges who won't do your bidding when your bidding is to break American law is fascism making people bend the knee in advance is fascism. These, these insane executive orders against law firms that are now committing to do tens of millions of dollars in pro bono work to defend Trump's indefensible legal desires. It really, I mean, disappearing people to Venezuelan gulags like the, the, the canaries in the coal mines are. They're, they're past singing, they're dying, and it seems like nobody's paying attention or doing anything about it. And I, I understand on the one hand, how important it is for people to see how depraved the administration wants to be. I understand that we are so lucky that that journalist was added to that group chat, because at least we had a whistleblower. Because to be clear, for the folks listening at home, things happening in that group chat aren't happening in, A, secure channels, but B, monitored channels, which means they would have been had we not found out about this. Very, it would have been very hard to FOIA any of these records, which is the Freedom of Information act for folks at home who might not be as politically obsessed as the three of us are. Like they're trying to be to, to erase accountability. And we know it. And then they lied, and then they lied under oath, and, and now what? The Republicans don't want to talk about it, but I actually believe this is the kind of thing that should unite all of us, from the most liberal to the most conservative. This is an attack on the, the safety of our nation and on our national security. And the call is coming from inside the House. So how do we call for accountability if the people in, in majority power don't want it? Because it's their people doing the bad. Like, are the Democrats going to call for Hegseth to resign? I know you already have. What, what do we do from here? How do we stop this? Because right now it feels like we have no, it feels like we have no ammo in this fight.
- [36:20]
Eric Swalwell
Right? So we have, as I said, we have public sentiment. We have congressional hearings where we can put every official now on notice. When they come testify, we can ask them, are you using signal chat to communicate, you know, are you discussing classified, you know, information in non secure spaces? Are you using your personal phones and, and you lock them in on those answers? Because winning the House means that you can then bring accountability, you know, if they were lying. But again, that's not the only thing that we can do. And on the judges, I'll just say small victories will lead to big victories for us. But I heard something today in a Judiciary Committee hearing. It was set a Couple weeks ago, when Trump was, you know, tweet raging about impeaching judges, Musk was saying, let's impeach judges. This like brand new member of Congress from Texas who's just looking to like raise money introduces articles of impeachment that he has no intention of actually following up on. He just is doing it to please Trump. So he gets his hearing today in the Judiciary Committee and they bring in Newt Gingrich as their witness to talk about like judges. And the funniest thing happened, not a single Republican on the committee, other than the who wrote the articles of impeachment that he won't even move on, supported impeaching judges, not even Newt Gingrich. And so what that tells me is that this was like popular three or four weeks ago.
- [37:53]
Sophia Bush
Wow.
- [37:54]
Eric Swalwell
As we are turning public sentiment against Trump and Musk because of the signal chat issues, because of the tariffs, because of the tax cuts, and because of what he's doing to the rule of law.
- [38:07]
Sophia Bush
I mean, the federal workers losing their jobs, the slashing of usaid.
- [38:11]
Eric Swalwell
So we created this. So in this hearing today where I was ready, you know, to go in, you know, ready to throw down for democracy in our debate, and they didn't even, no one wanted to defend it. And so that means to me, we created like a hot stove, right? We created a hot stove that they didn't want to touch. And so they didn't go in there wanting to defend Trump on this. So we just have to creating hot stoves that they don't touch so that, you know, none of us, you know, suffer the consequences. And that small victory. But as I said, small victories will lead to big victories.
- [38:49]
Jordan Brown
Eric, I quote you all the time when I think the most lucid, easy to understand example that's been given about what it's like to be a member of Congress these days comes from you. When you gave the WWE analogy, can you. And it just helped me to understand even, you know, just the sort of two faced nature of public and private.
- [39:11]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. Will you give that to us?
- [39:13]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah. So, Sophia, it took me a while to realize that I work with pro wrestlers. And, and what I mean is that when we're in a committee hearing or we're on the House floor or they're on Fox News, they are like one Persona. Like they're the ultimate warrior, the undertaker, the rock, whatever. But I would start running into these guys, you know, behind the committee room and like, we call it an anteroom that's just off or at the Congressional gym or just like Bumping into them at the Dunkin Donuts line. And they would, like, come up to me and they'd be like, hey, Swalwell. Hey, buddy. Like, how are you doing? And, like, I would look at him like they had three heads because they had just, like, scorched me personally on Fox News or in a hearing. And I came to realize that, like, to. To them, it's just the Persona they have to carry. Like, they can hit me over the head with the steel chair when we're in the ring, you know, like in the committee hearing, but backstage, when there's no camera for them to perform to, just two guys doing a gig. And. And I'm like, wait, but, like, it's not a gig.
- [40:23]
Sophia Bush
Like, yeah.
- [40:25]
Eric Swalwell
And the fans that you are trying to please are called constituents.
- [40:29]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [40:30]
Eric Swalwell
During the second impeachment of Trump, when I was one of the prosecutors in the Senate, I had made this presentation about, like, the violence of the day. And I. I had the police officer portion of the presentation, and it was very emotional. And even Mitch McConnell was, like, sitting in the front row, like, wiping a tear from his.
- [40:50]
Sophia Bush
Wow.
- [40:51]
Eric Swalwell
Because we're watching police officers just being crushed. And then we take a break, and I go to the bathroom, and as I'm washing my hands, I see in the sink next to me, Ted Cruz washing his hands. And he looks over at me and he dries his hands, and he puts his fist out, and he goes, hey, I'm Ted. And I look at him and I'm like. With my fist. Hey, Ted. And he can tell I'm so confused because the night before, he was on Fox News calling Adam Schiff and me out by name, saying the worst thing. And he goes, I want you to know you're doing a really good job out there. He goes, no, I mean it. And I'm like, like, what is he talking about? But again, it's just like. He's just like.
- [41:35]
Sophia Bush
It's crazy.
- [41:36]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah.
- [41:36]
Jordan Brown
So.
- [41:37]
Eric Swalwell
And. And that there are a few of them, though. I will give them credit. Like, Marjorie Taylor Greene, not a pro wrestler. Like, she believes her crazy, and I respect that. I actually respect somebody who's like, this is what I believe. It may be, like, batty, but, like, what I don't respect, what I have a harder time squaring, is people who actually know better and they just do it anyway because they think, yeah, the, you know, politicainment or, like, political theater.
- [42:06]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [42:06]
Jordan Brown
It is hard to blame those people, though, because that is the only thing that has been rewarded on the right and you know, we saw, like, when Trump was elected for the first time in the primaries in 2016 and got the nomination there. Nobody else was really kind of only playing to that Fox crowd or only playing to, like, the most fringe elements on the right. And what Trump did is make the fringe the center of that party. And it's like, so now to compete, you have to mimic him. No one can quite do it, right. And so, you know, if it wasn't so high stakes, you would almost feel sorry for them, you know, because they look so ridiculous trying to do this. But it's like, like you said, it's like the stakes are too high. Like, this isn't supposed to be entertainment, but, like, it is kind of.
- [42:51]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah, wrestling analogy. It's like there's this royal rumble right now where they're all competing to, like, who can outdo the other in service of Trump, right? Like, one of them wants to put Trump on Mount Rushmore.
- [43:04]
Sophia Bush
One of them, oh, my God.
- [43:05]
Eric Swalwell
On the $200 bill. One of them wants to rename Dulles after Trump. So it's just like this pathetic effort to just try and be the most in service to Trump among my colleagues and they all.
- [43:20]
Sophia Bush
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
- [43:26]
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- [44:02]
Sophia Bush
It makes me feel crazy because not only is it also stupid, but as you said, Jordan, it is so high stakes. This is life and death for people. When our veterans lose their health care, and we know how many veterans commit suicide in this country every week, that. That is life and death. It is a betrayal of our people. And, you know, to say kids should go hungry in school feels like a betrayal of who we are. And I guess what frightens me about what Trumpism has unleashed is such a movement of the Overton Window. We have seen the spectrum of acceptability get pushed so far into violence and belittling and bullying. It's. It's so classless and something I respect, particularly about our country, about American people about our working class folks. Like, we have always had a level of honor. We haven't always done everything right, but there has been like a grit and a, and, and some level of decorum to what we believe in, and it's just gone. And the way that they talk about people and the way that they talk about women and the way it's just like, it, it pains me. And I guess I'm, I'm curious in terms of how we communicate about this stuff, because you said, Congressman, that public sentiment is working. And Jordan, you are an incredible communicator out in the world to explain why the political is personal, how everything that happens in our world, everything around us, is a result of policy. I'm breathing clean air on the east coast right now because of the epa. I can trust the water that comes out of my sink to drink because of policy. And I'm, I'm curious about the. Keep the pressure applied from the public and how you see us doing that best, Jordan, because I know that the protests happening around the country aren't being covered on the mainstream news right now. We're barely seeing them on Instagram. We got to go looking to see tens of thousands of people in the street. You know, that big rally AOC and Bernie did in Colorado just a few weeks ago, for example. How do you encourage us to keep that foot on the gas pedal of public sentiment? What's your advice for listeners who want to be involved, who don't want to see federal workers lose their jobs, veterans lose their health care, kids lose access, you know, to Healthy Start and snap? What do we do? Because people feel overwhelmed because of this flood the zone strategy, and I don't want us to risk the momentum of sentiment.
- [47:04]
Jordan Brown
Well, it's, it's a tough answer because the answer is essentially we have to. What I would say for people, find the person who most represents you and your beliefs personally and support them. And, you know, I often, every member of Congress, you know, says, call my office, because that is the thing that I really get a barometer on what people are thinking. And I think that's really true. And Eric, you can tell us, but the other thing I would say is I often look at, you know, members of Congress who I know and admire. I'll look at their social media comments, and often it's like, yes, give them hell. You're fighting. Thank you. But just as often with the Democrats since Trump came back into power, it's like, okay, okay. But this feels performative. What are you actually doing? And I Think it's important to remind people that we are living in a truly unprecedented moment in American history. The Democrats don't run anything in our federal government. Not the White House, not the Senate, not the House of Representatives, and not the highly partisan Supreme Court. So the question. It's the wrong question. It's, why is the Republican Party accepting a reality in which there is no red line? The President of the United States can help our adversaries can unwind 100 years of economic prosperity and protection of democracy around the world and have no consequences. No senators privately coming to the White House to be like, hey, you better stop this or you're going to lose the support of Congress. I mean, Nixon, you know, President Clinton, when he was impeached, had those types of private things happening to him to sort of make sure that they were responsive to the political realities of, like, hey, if you keep doing this, we're going to lose, and we're all going to lose our seats, and you got to stop or you got to resign. This is a moment in which none of that is happening. And Donald Trump signed an executive order this week to try to take over elections and make it harder people. So they're literally doing everything they can to.
- [48:58]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [48:59]
Jordan Brown
Where they can't lose.
- [49:00]
Eric Swalwell
And so there's this weird thing going on, I think, with my colleagues, where it's this wishful. And you wouldn't blame him for thinking it. Type of thinking, where, well, we can just keep enabling him. Because if, to Jordan's point, Trump makes it harder for people to vote, and if Elon Musk is successful in Wisconsin and buying that election, that I will have a ballot box that's harder to get to and hold me accountable, and a billionaire willing to bankroll my election. So I'm invincible. So that. That's kind of the accountability problem that we have right now. But to. To Jordan's point, that question in the comments on social media, like, what are you doing besides, like, giving us, you know, a good show and a committee hearing?
- [49:50]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [49:51]
Eric Swalwell
I am telling, like, myself, our family and my constituents, we all, in our activism, have to go one rung higher. So whatever we were willing to do in the last election, for now, we have to go one rung higher. I think we're gonna have to go a few rungs higher ultimately to save this thing. But right now, just take yourself one rung higher. What I'm doing personally is I'm going to Republican districts where they will not hold town halls, and I'm holding a town hall. I was in Anna Paulina Luna's district two weekends ago, 600 people showed up. I did it with the former Republican in Congress. We had a 1500 person wait list and we listened to those constituents and there was talent in that crowd who may end up being a candidate to run against her, you know, in the future. And so committing to doing that is my one rung hire to your listeners. I would say if you've never gone to a public protest, go to your first public protests, April 5th. There's going to be one day. If you've never gone to a city council meeting, go to a city council meeting. If you've gone to a city council meeting, but you've never put yourself on the agenda to speak, it's a public agenda speaking. But just go one rung higher for now. Own personal activism. And I think that's what it's going to take to get us out of this hell that we're in right now.
- [51:15]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, I really like that when, when Jordan mentioned, you know, how important it is for you guys to hear from callers. Can you give us a little bit of inside baseball on that? Because a lot of people are nervous to call their elected representatives. They're not quite sure what to say. They're not quite sure if it's going to be impactful. So how much does that matter in.
- [51:37]
Eric Swalwell
Congressional offices, if that's the only thing you do? I would say it probably won't make you feel that much better and it probably won't move the needle too much for the congressional office. But as I said, if you're willing, if that's all you've ever done, if you're willing to go one rung higher and also go to their town hall or go to their office some. There's been protests at different offices around members who won't hold town halls. I think that starts to add up because when you're a member and you're seeing that the phone lines are, you know, hot today and there's 200 people outside my congressional office demanding that I hold a town hall, and my DMs are blowing up of people saying, you know, why won't you talk to me like that? That reaches me and that can be quite effective. And I, you know, I get a report every week of like, what the call volume is, what the email volume is, what the. We call it the mail report. And I also just like talking to the interns and our staffers and I'll say, like, how is it on the phones? Because I just want a sense of what it's like. And you can tell if it's a stressful day because people are calling and you know they're pissed off. So, yes, that works, but it doesn't work if you're the only one doing it, and it doesn't work if that's the only thing that you're doing. So we need a lot of people to do things like that, and we need to do more. More than just, you know, calling your.
- [53:01]
Sophia Bush
Rep. Yeah, I think there's a. There's a great website for our listeners at home called five calls.org that will help you identify your reps, identify how to speak about the issues that are important to you. And I think it's a really great resource. I have alarm on my calendar that goes off every Monday, and it's like, call your representatives once a week. Takes 10 minutes. Gotta do it. And I do think to continue to remind your reps that they work for you. You said it. Your job is to keep your constituents safe and then to work to better their lives. And I think a great way to remind people of how to do that is to stay in communication. Can you give me a little overview? I know we're coming up on time. I feel like I could talk to you both for hours.
- [53:56]
Eric Swalwell
Gonna go see one of our former allies. I feel like my office has been like a therapist couch for allied nations and their leader to come in and just ask me, like, what did we do wrong? I bet I'm just like, on this apology tour of, like, it's not you.
- [54:16]
Sophia Bush
You're like, you've. You've done nothing wrong. This is crazy.
- [54:20]
Eric Swalwell
By one of those means.
- [54:21]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [54:22]
Eric Swalwell
Well.
- [54:22]
Sophia Bush
And thank you for taking the, you know, time out of your day to come and talk to us about this. Can you give us a quick overview of things that listeners should be watching? Like, what are Trump and Musk coming for that people need to know. We know it's healthcare. We know it's abortion access. We know it's gay marriage. We know it's voting. We know it's the va. Like, are there things you really want people to know they should be tracking and watching?
- [54:48]
Eric Swalwell
Yes, on this? It's called reconciliation. That's the name of the procedural process. But for Trump to give nearly a trillion dollars in tax cuts to billionaires, Republicans in Congress will have to vote for it. And they have a very narrow majority. And so watch who benefits and who loses. Who does he take that? Because right now, the only way for the billionaires to get their tax cuts is for him. To take away health care and Social Security benefits, period. We should be watching that. As he tries to make it harder to go to the ballot box, you're seeing lawsuits being brought to stop him. Leader Jeffries just brought a lawsuit on behalf of House Democrats on one of the executive orders. That makes it a lot harder for people to vote. Also, if you live in a Democratic state, meaning, like, you have a Democratic governor, make sure your governors are maxing out democracy. Because we talk a lot about voting rights and access to the polls, but it's not like we're perfect in blue states. It's not like you have voting lines of 30 minutes or less in a blue state. Right. Like, there's still hours long lines in states. So we should have high expectations on our secretaries of state and governors in blue states that in the lead up to this upcoming election where the midterms are on the line, that we are maxing out democracy and we are leading by example, not the lowest common denominator as it relates to, like, how people, you know, get to the polls and are able to vote.
- [56:24]
Sophia Bush
I love that. Thank you so much. Thank you, Congressman. I'm going to ask Jordan a last couple of questions, but please go to your meeting.
- [56:31]
Jordan Brown
We're.
- [56:32]
Sophia Bush
We're with you. We love you.
- [56:33]
Eric Swalwell
You too. You're in it. I love it. It inspires me. It reminds me why we all have to stay in it and just so grateful you could do anything else. You have so many options, but you care about, you know, making sure our freedom and our opportunities do not evaporate on the watch.
- [56:52]
Sophia Bush
So I care about it the most. Thank you for that.
- [56:55]
Eric Swalwell
All right, see you guys.
- [56:57]
Sophia Bush
Good luck out there. And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy, and I think you will, too.
- [57:04]
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- [57:39]
Sophia Bush
Jordan, you're doing a really cool thing that really makes me feel excited because we do this a lot together. I mean, you're one of the people I talk to about As I said earlier, everything going on in life, but certainly what's going on in the world. And I've sat on many a flight, in many a car canvassing and. And certainly on many a night in your backyard or mine, over a bottle of wine, trying to figure out why people that actually are so much more aligned than the algorithms or these media silos would have us think, think. They're so far apart. And I think anytime you sit down with people, you know, you break bread, you meet their kids, you spend time in their town, you realize we all want a lot of the same things. And you decided to take those conversations out into the world and ask, what if you're wrong? Can you sit and talk to someone who has a different opinion than you and make space for their thoughts and feelings? Can you, you know, come to some sort of mutual agreement? And you've done a lot of those conversations over, you know, dinners and at gatherings, but now you're doing it in this space, in the podcast space. Why did you feel like this was the moment? And what do you think you've learned so far?
- [59:06]
Jordan Brown
Thanks for asking. Yeah, it is. First of all, as somebody, you know, your podcast is one of, you know, a dozen that I subscribe to and listen to. And so just, first of all, respect, because it's a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. So good for you. The thing that. There were two things that made me do this. Number one, I married the love of my life, whose family, most American families has every political viewpoint represented, but several people who are major Trump supporters and RFK supporters who are really excited about this new moment in our country. And so I found. And I love them, and I love spending time with them. And what I realized is, when I'm getting all these news alerts that make me want to puke, they're, like, pumping their fist in the air that they love them because it's not because they're bad people. It's because, I mean, first of all, they may have different values than me, but we share a lot of the same values. But really what it is is, like, they spend every waking moment in a totally different reality than us do. Right? So everything that they are subscribed to or that their algorithm shows them is representing this viewpoint. And I think, you know, we know that YouTube radicalized a lot of people, right, with the algorithm of, like, if you like this, you're gonna like this. And then, yep, there's this famous experiment that if you sign up with no information about yourself and you you know, within like 30 videos, you're watching some fringe conspiracy video. So this is. This has been something that is. Is people aren't choosing to do. It's happened to them, and it has broken our society. And so the second reason is when Trump won the first time, it was very close and a shock. And I think there was this sense among many of us that this is a fluke, you know, where there was something unique to, like, the right had vilified Hillary Clinton for so long that just like, she couldn't let. And he won this time. It was not close. It wasn't a blowout, but, you know, he won every battleground state. It was close in the popular vote, but it was the kind of thing where like, we all went to bed that night knowing he was going. And so it wasn't like this drawn out thing. It really humbled me. And so what I realized is, like, what can I do? Because it's not helping me to sort of just like, stay in my bubble. But it's really uncomfortable to talk to people. You know, my husband and I had a baby, baby, and there are, like, millions of people out there who think that's not okay or that it's wrong. And it's so tempting to just be like, put my little blinders on and be like, everyone who's in my circle loves us and it's all good, but I'm not doing that. And I'm choosing to sort of engage in some of those tougher conversations where I think it's the only way out of this.
- [62:00]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, I agree. I mean, part of the, you know, the joy for me of my career is that it takes me to live in so many places around our country, sometimes around the world. I'm always kind of tickled when I spend time with really conservative people and we get along really well. And they're like, I thought you were gonna be a banshee. I'm like, no, I just. I just want us to care about each other. And if. And if the media you are receiving isn't telling you about these true things, you know, the RFK of it all, for example, people are like, yeah, too many EPA regulations deregulate. And I'm going, y'all are worried about. Supposedly worried about heavy metals and foods. Do you know how they get there? They get there from environmental pollution. They get in the water, in the soil, and then it's in the food we eat. And what bothers me is realizing that the right in particular has weaponized the gotcha moment. But they'll take the smallest slice of a whole big pie and say, this slice is the information, and they leave out all the rest of the context, all the rest of the facts. And so, you know, yesterday, for example, when Aaron Parnas broke the news that they are removing the terms safe drinking water from EPA legislation, I'm going, this is going to hurt you no matter how you voted. It's. It's gonna, it's gonna potentially poison my kids and yours. And so I think being willing to sit down with people and get us out of these silos, you know, get us out of the WWE energy that, that Congressman Swalwell was speaking about. I'll never forget years ago, a friend have in common a comedian who shall remain nameless because I don't want to blow up his spot, but told me that because of a project, he'd wound up spending some time with Tucker Carlson and was like, he's actually really smart and totally hates Trump and thinks the whole thing's. But knows all the rich people are making a ton of money, so they're going to go along with it for a little while. And, you know, they don't assume America's going to blow up or anything. And I was like, huh? Yeah, like we're saying this like it's a good thing. You know, it's. But, you know, it riles people up in their homes, it makes people upset, it makes people hate their neighbors, it makes people not trust their doctors.
- [64:34]
Jordan Brown
Yeah.
- [64:35]
Sophia Bush
It's not just a money grab. It has real consequences. And so I think when we can actually be with people and reconnect, it can hopefully push back against some of that really poisonous messaging 100.
- [64:56]
Jordan Brown
And I think there's this little, that dynamic of something that's happening on the right and something that's happening simultaneously on the left that I think feeds what you just described. So on the left, we could be a lot better. There are some people who are open to being allies with some of the groups we fight for. They. They feel really a lot of pressure or nervousness around using the right terminology or saying something. Right. And, and we know now that a lot of the online discourse that the left perpetuated alienated people who sort of were with us on the issues, but they're kind of like, you guys are too much. At the same time. On the right, there's this famous John Lennon quote. That's one of my favorite quotes. It's so simple. Don't hate what you don't understand. To me, it just gets at everything. Right. So we Know that with the gay rights movement, things got a lot better for queer people. Once you had a gay neighbor or a teacher or a coach or just someone that you knew in your life that was gay and you're like, oh, I like this person. They should have rights.
- [65:55]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [65:55]
Jordan Brown
And you know, so that is the natural trajectory. And so what they do on the right is parody. The most extreme examples. Right. So with regard to gender, you know, if one person posts on Twitter, my pronouns are like a tree. There is an entire news cycle of the right wing media sphere that is like, oh, now you can identify as a tree. You know, what's next? You're going to identify as a spaceship. When in reality, 99.9% of people who feel, you know, who are non binary or have some gender non conforming issue, which is like a real thing, it's an actual thing and it's a serious.
- [66:36]
Sophia Bush
And it's always been a thing. It's not new.
- [66:39]
Jordan Brown
It takes so little effort and energy just to, you know, be human about it. But all of that is suddenly non serious because they're expert at taking those fringe things. And there's an example with every.
- [66:51]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [66:52]
Jordan Brown
Of making something really fringe look like, oh, this is what the left's trying to do when you call 911, they don't want anyone to pick up. Right. No more police because one guy got killed, you know, on YouTube. And you know, to me, like the most haunting image so far of what you were describing earlier of like the bending the knee and the total subservience of the major law firms, but was seeing them jackhammer. Black lives matter words. Black lives matter. Jackhammering them, or the NFL taking the words end racism out of the end zone. And it's like across the culture, government, business, the news media. Yeah, everyone there is a real cost, real or perceived, but it almost doesn't matter because the things that they are doing are trying to placate Trump so he doesn't come after them.
- [67:44]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And it's scary. It's scary to give in to cruelty. And what frustrates me is it's the opposite of efficient. You have any idea how much money it costs to jackhammer up three city blocks in Washington D.C. and repave them?
- [67:58]
Jordan Brown
Yeah.
- [67:59]
Sophia Bush
For what? You know, the, the cuts that we're seeing, you know, cutting USAID when there's an Ebola outbreak in Africa, it's like, what are we doing? And you know, medications already on the ground and these clinics are being told, throw it away. Life saving medication. They're Being told to throw it away, the cruelty and the wastefulness is so hard for me. But I agree with you. They, they message with these slogans that can be so far off from what's true. And it, what it seems to have done in my observation is it's made it, it's made truth feel like a non necessity. People don't even care what's true anymore. They're just tired. And that is scary. So I'm curious, how do you encourage people to stay hopeful? What helps you not just throw your hands up in the air and go back to bed in the morning, aside from your perfect, precious little baby?
- [69:14]
Jordan Brown
I try really hard to practice what I preach is the first thing. So, you know, I'm someone who has spent 20 years trying to help Democrats win elections and raise money, you know, in this really broken system where wealthy people like Elon Musk, but he's certainly not the first, he's just the largest contributor. But you know, our system is broken, right? And we have to work with the system we have in order to change it. But one of my favorite personal sayings is you have to win elections in order to govern. So in order to help all these people that we care about, we first have to win an election. And that means you have to convince enough Americans that we have better ideas. And so yeah, when what I mean by practicing what I preach is, you know, this analogy I use a lot is like, we're at the social media, broke politics, right? You, we made us all wear, put on a jersey that was red or blue. And so think about how fanatically you love your favorite sports team, you buy the merch, you go to the games, you get season tickets, you're cheering and screaming for them, you watch highlight reels. It's very hard then in the big game to get somebody to actually, hey, can you take off this jersey, go to the other side of the field, sit in those stands and not cheer for these players who you don't know or you hate. So what I try to do though is have moments where I can at least acknowledge that there's someone in my party who I disagree with or I think they did something wrong or that's, that's harmful for the country. And I, and I want to be able to articulate that what I expect from all of the people who voted for Trump is the same thing. So a very powerful question that I've been asking to my friends and family who voted for him and support him is, is just simply this, is there anything that he could do that would cause you to stop supporting him. It's a really powerful question. And people, it takes them a really long time to answer. And you're so. Politics has become like religion. The fervor is so real that you can't answer it. But that's, to me, like, if we can't answer that, then then we're kind of cooked. Right. Unless we can figure out a way to win an election. Because that really is what it comes down to in this moment is we've just never had this moment before where, like, you know, famously, Trump said when he was running the first time, I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue. And not to support it felt so extreme to say. But not only was he right about that, it's. I could cozy up to Vladimir Putin, who runs America's biggest adversary. I could dismantle NATO. I could ruin the American economy with pointless tariffs that will cause a trade war, and we know don't work and I won't lose support. So it's like, at this point, what, you know, where can we go? What can we do?
- [72:01]
Sophia Bush
Right. Well, what do you think?
- [72:04]
Jordan Brown
I do think that, you know, we obviously can't give up. And we have to remember, you know, KAMALA Harris got 48% of the popular vote.
- [72:13]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [72:14]
Jordan Brown
Trump got 49. Each of the battleground states was within, you know, a point. There's not something fundamental that has happened in the country. We had this really difficult situation as Democrats where everyone saw in real time that President Biden was no longer up to the job. There was a panic, you know, and there was this process, or lack of a process, really a very difficult position for Vice President Harris to step into. And I think she did a really wonderful job. She had 100 years.
- [72:44]
Sophia Bush
She did.
- [72:44]
Jordan Brown
To do something that most people who have ever run for the job have two years.
- [72:48]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [72:49]
Jordan Brown
So there's not something that's totally broken about the. Or is it humbling? Yeah. Could we have a more. More attractive message? Yes. Could we have more dynamic leaders step up to the plate? For sure. But the only way that they can have a permanent majority is if enough of us sit back quietly while they fix the courts and make.
- [73:09]
Sophia Bush
And by fix, you mean.
- [73:11]
Jordan Brown
Yes, sorry, fix them in the way. Like rig them.
- [73:14]
Sophia Bush
Rig that I word.
- [73:15]
Jordan Brown
But there's a playbook, you know, from Hungary to Brazil to all kinds of other countries in the world. Like, it's. It's just a playbook that everyone knows about.
- [73:24]
Sophia Bush
It's how to the authoritarian and playbook country.
- [73:27]
Jordan Brown
And so like Congressman Swalwell said there's a million things we can do to push back against it and they are all in some ways equally important. So, you know, the leaders, the future, our future leaders come from state and local politics. Right? So like Obama was a state senator in Springfield, Illinois.
- [73:48]
Sophia Bush
Right.
- [73:48]
Jordan Brown
Like Clinton was the governor of Arkansas, like one of our smallest states. And so we've, I think again, identifying somebody that you think represents your values and that's you're excited about and yeah, kind of supporting them helps motivate you.
- [74:05]
Sophia Bush
And now for our sponsors.
- [74:09]
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- [74:42]
Sophia Bush
Who are you excited about? Who are the leaders that you love right now?
- [74:47]
Jordan Brown
So many people. I think the first that comes to mind is the wonderful new governor of Maryland who you and I met together. Wesmore.
- [74:55]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [74:56]
Jordan Brown
In addition to just being like a wonderful human being, you know, he, he and his wife are so dynamic and he's already done a lot that was bipartisan in Maryland. I love Congressman Richie Torres from the Bronx. He was the. The first gay man of color to be elected, along with Mondair Jones, the former congressman from New York. I think Richie Torres is great. I love Gina Raimondo, who was a governor before she was in President Biden's cabinet. Ruben Gallego, the new, the new senator from Arizona who replaced Kirsten. Cinema Boo. Boo.
- [75:37]
Sophia Bush
Reuben's wonderful. I got to campaign with him quite a bit this year and just, I guess last year and just adore him and his family.
- [75:46]
Jordan Brown
Pete Buttigieg, you know, who's new. But, you know, we forget that Pete Buttigieg won the Iowa caucus in 2020, like right before COVID started. He's a serious, serious leader of our party. Jasmine Crockett, who Congressman Swallow mentioned.
- [76:06]
Sophia Bush
She's so wonderful.
- [76:08]
Jordan Brown
She's so, I mean, she's a brilliant lawyer, but, you know, she's obviously filling that, that void that people feel sometimes. Like, why don't we have someone who's like more of a fighter who can really?
- [76:18]
Sophia Bush
Like, yeah.
- [76:19]
Jordan Brown
So that's Jasmine Crockett. If you don't know her.
- [76:22]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. She's amazing. Somebody. Somebody. I posted something about how disrespectful Marjorie Taylor Greene was to a journalist this week, and someone was like, you have nothing to say about Jasmine Crockett? And I said, honey, Jasmine Crockett is just matching their volume.
- [76:36]
Jordan Brown
Yeah.
- [76:37]
Sophia Bush
I'm like, if you don't like it, get your people to stop.
- [76:41]
Jordan Brown
Yeah. Yeah. And I was in a room recently with her, and there was just tremendous grassroots support for her. Kind of unlike anything I've ever seen. Like, people whipping their napkins at the table, like, she's got it. There's a lot of talent in Michigan, obviously. The one.
- [76:56]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [76:57]
Jordan Brown
Gretchen Whitmer and the new center.
- [76:58]
Sophia Bush
We love Big Gretch Lock, and she's wonderful, too.
- [77:02]
Jordan Brown
Yeah. So there's a lot of people. We have wonderful, wonderful talent. But to me, it's like, what happened in 2017 when Trump won is a bunch of talented badasses ran for office. A bunch of veterans, nurses, and doctors, people who were running the PTA and saw what was going on with schools, and they're now in Congress, and they're like, amazing, amazing. You know, Abigail Spamberger from Virginia, Lauren Underwood from Illinois, who's.
- [77:30]
Sophia Bush
Yes, I love her, who was a.
- [77:32]
Jordan Brown
Nurse and saw what was going on with the Affordable Care act and was like, no. You know, that is how we fight back and build and win. So to your listeners, I would also say, like, there's nothing magical about running for Congress. Start small, like, but get in the mix. If you care about the school board, even being involved, you know, in your community organizations matters right now.
- [77:55]
Sophia Bush
Yes, absolutely. It's all such good advice. And it. And it does remind me of the. The power levers that we as citizens can still pull and push on, which feels exciting. Who. Who do you hope will make a bid for our party for president in 2028?
- [78:16]
Jordan Brown
Well, it's. It's a tough thing to answer, because what I think about in my quiet moments is, like, has. Has something changed that we. To the degree that, like, we won't go back to how it was before. So we know that we've always had. If there's a Venn diagram of, like, what makes you a talented politician and what makes you a talented actor or entertainer. Big overlap from Ronald Reagan to Jesse Ventura to Donald Trump, and there are many more, you know, Sonny Bono. So what I don't know is, like, are we at a place now where we need a celebrity to win, and I'm just not sure. So there's a world in which you have George Clooney or Matthew McConaughey or the Rock running for the Democratic nomination. A year and a half.
- [79:05]
Sophia Bush
Wow.
- [79:06]
Jordan Brown
None of those people would be a bad president. I think any of them would be 1,000 times better than Donald Trump and J.D. vance. That is very different, though, from a primary that has Pete Buttigieg and Wes Moore and Gretchen Whitmer and Amy Klobuchar, or is there someone from business, you know, Howard Schultz and Michael Bloomberg tried last time. Is Mark Cuban going to throw his hat in the ring? I don't think he will, but. Or is there someone else who runs a beloved, you know, Bob Iger, who's run the most beloved corporation on Earth for 20 years, like Iran? Well, Oprah. So I don't know what I hope. There's not one person. I know that we will have a really competitive primary. Vice President Harris might choose to run again. And I just. I know that I'm proud to be a Democrat right now because the people standing on our primary stage are going to look like the country, and there will be kind of everything. And I hope that. What I do think we've moved beyond is identity politics. And we know why they started and why we needed them.
- [80:11]
Eric Swalwell
Right.
- [80:12]
Jordan Brown
Marginalized groups had to organize to get rights. But now what we have realized is that most people who are in those communities don't want to be grouped into that. And so, you know, six months ago, we had hombres con Harris. Right. For, like, Latino men who were with Harris, like, people didn't react well to that. And so I think ideas and talking about the future and the aspirational part of, like, being an American who has enough money to, like, have a nice life, that is what our nominees should and I think will represent.
- [80:47]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [80:48]
Jordan Brown
Rather than like, oh, here's the gay candidate, here's the black candidate, here's the Latino candidate. That's not what we need. And I don't think that's what our party will offer going forward.
- [80:56]
Sophia Bush
Right. Well. And I guess what's frustrating is if you are, you know, described by any of those words, people act like that's your whole personality or the whole reason you're a candidate. It must be dei. And it's like, no, these are just people who will ensure that people are represented. It's like, it's not that complicated. And I do hope that the more conversations we can have in our communities, the more engagement we see people participating in from town Halls, to making calls to Congress, to protesting, to volunteering. My. My wish is that it reminds us that we all really are in this together. And at the end of the day, the more people that are represented in any room, the better the outcomes in that room are.
- [81:50]
Jordan Brown
Yes.
- [81:51]
Sophia Bush
For everyone.
- [81:52]
Jordan Brown
Yes.
- [81:52]
Sophia Bush
Even the people who've traditionally had the power. So I hope we can show people another way. And for now, I'm really grateful to have both of you gentlemen on my speed dial. And we'll just keep going.
- [82:12]
Jordan Brown
Thank you for everything you're doing. And, you know, it's like Eric said at the start of the conversation, you don't have to be doing this, but I think knowing you for almost 20 years, like, it. It's what makes you come alive, and it's. It's in your bones. And I know that out of your millions of followers, just as many are coming to you for how to be a citizen as they are for their favorite, you know, show or podcast. And that's a real testament to how you show up in the world and the reputation you've built for fighting for everyone, even the people that don't look like you. So thank you.
- [82:53]
Sophia Bush
Thanks, Jordan. Thank you. I met a really sweet gal in Wilmington about a week ago who said, I'm going to law school because of you. I followed all this stuff, you know, since middle school, and now I'm going to law school. And I was like, oh, my God, this makes me want to sob. She's going to be a human rights attorney. And it was. It was very special. So it. It is meaningful to do this work with you. It's meaningful to get to have these conversations with everyone who's listening at home. Thank you all, you know, for being here. And I do hope that some of this pragmatic advice has. Has reminded you to stay hopeful and stay in the game, because we're not going to seed our territory. We're not going to cede this country to anybody who wants to take it apart. Damn it.
- [83:41]
Eric Swalwell
Right?
- [83:43]
Sophia Bush
Well, I love you.
- [83:44]
Jordan Brown
I love you. Thank you for having me.