Zoe Lister-Jones

Summary

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Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

Episode: Zoe Lister-Jones (April 29, 2026)

Host: Sophia Bush
Guest: Zoe Lister-Jones

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Episode Overview

This episode welcomes back actress, writer, director, and producer Zoe Lister-Jones, whom Sophia calls “a living, breathing character study of her own authenticity.” Their conversation dives deep into the intersections of art, feminism, generational influence, personal growth, and industry challenges. Zoe and Sophia discuss the role of art and activism, the creative process, the importance of joyful resistance, and the journey toward self-love—while laughing, swapping personal stories, and reflecting on their own “work in progress.”

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Artistic Roots and Feminist Foundations

(Starts ~06:10)

• Growing up in Brooklyn with artist parents, Zoe was immersed in creativity and activism from a young age.
• Her mother was deeply influential, teaching her about the “male gaze” in art and shaping Zoe’s feminist lens.
• Zoe mentions her mom’s 1970s film collective, Real Feelings, and how that legacy unconsciously guided decisions like hiring an all-female crew for her directorial debut "Band Aid."
  • Quote: “Her eyes became my eyes… that influenced my work so much.” – Zoe (07:04)

The Power and Challenges of Female Community

(~08:40 – 12:33)

• Sophia compares being raised by a strong mother and attending an all-girls school, noting the impact on her confidence and approach.
• Both recognize the persistence of internalized misogyny and the resurgence of regressive gender branding.
  • Quote: “There’s a lot of internalized misogyny across the board.” – Zoe (09:57)
• The conversation pivots to joyful, spontaneous collective acts (like women in wedding dresses) as a form of resistance.
  • Quote: “Audacious acts of joy and resistance… are what we need.” – Zoe (12:17)

Creativity, Execution, and Surviving the Industry

(~15:53 – 20:39)

• Sophia praises Zoe’s rare balance of creative generation and execution.
• Zoe reflects on the necessity of being “generative” after observing her artist parents’ struggles to make a living solely from their art.
  • Quote: “I must be generative to live, otherwise…” – Zoe (17:49)
• She discusses the tension between staying process-focused and the pressure of product/industry demands, especially as projects scale up.

Hope, Burnout, and Surrendering to the Present

(24:38 – 27:26)

• Sophia asks how Zoe maintains hope amid industry and global upheaval.
• Zoe describes her current spiritual work as surrendering to the present and prioritizing rest as a means to sustain engagement.
  • Quote: “The spiritual work I’m doing right now is to surrender to the now… and try to not future trip.” – Zoe (25:31)
• Gen Z’s civic engagement and authenticity inspire Zoe.

The Role of Queer and Nonbinary Identity in Resistance

(27:26 – 31:16)

• Sophia expands on why trans and nonbinary people are at the center of cultural backlash: their very existence destabilizes oppressive systems.
  • Quote: “It is such a radical upset to a system that succeeds on the shrinking of people…” – Sophia (28:53)
• Both reflect on the vulnerability and courage required to live authentically.

Art as Activism: "Consumed" and Storytelling as Subversion

(31:11 – 37:21)

• The duo revisits Zoe’s 2015 film "Consumed," a thriller about GMOs and food justice, and discuss the challenges of making politically subversive art.
• They unpack today’s “grift” culture, wellness movements, and how true activism and misinformation can get entangled.
  • Quote: “Conspiracy theories work because there’s a kernel of truth at the center, and then they build a fantasy of fallacy around it.” – Sophia (33:10)

Honoring the Multiplicity of Self: "Slip"

(38:37 – 42:37)

• Sophia describes Zoe’s groundbreaking series "Slip," in which Zoe, the first woman in her age bracket to write, direct, and star in every episode of a TV season, explores identity and sexuality.
• The show mirrors Zoe’s own coming out journey, using the device of the protagonist traveling to parallel universes through orgasm.
  • Quote: “There are so many different selves. And how we honor each of those selves and explore those selves was really interesting to me.” – Zoe (41:01)
• The role of female sexual agency is central, and Zoe notes the cultural hunger for stories of unapologetic female pleasure.

Staying Playful & Managing Heartache: "The Miniature Wife" and Beyond

(47:21 – 49:23)

• Zoe shares the relief of being “just an actor” in the Peacock series "The Miniature Wife," allowing herself to play without the pressure of creative control.
• She describes playfulness as essential to creative survival and how heartache contributes to resilience.

Creativity, Rest, and Surrender

(51:31 – 53:41)

• Both speak candidly about needing periods of creativity without pressure—doing work for fun, not always for results.
  • Quote: “Creativity thrives in the liminal spaces, when you actually give your brain permission to turn off… when you can surrender and try to be present, that’s when it flows.” – Zoe (51:38)

Inner and Outer Work: The “Work in Progress”

(52:00 – 56:18)

• Asked about her own “work in progress,” Zoe identifies it as “esteemable acts that build self-esteem,” focusing on reducing negative self-talk and practicing self-love.
  • Quote: "Esteemable acts that build self-esteem, not esteem based on external validation... When you start to really pay attention to how much negative self-talk exists in a day…” – Zoe (52:31)
• Both discuss the balancing act between self-work and civic engagement. Too much self-focus can turn into perfectionism, so it’s critical to also invest in community.

Healing Family Patterns and Late Blooming

(56:46 – 59:22)

• A moving exchange on healing relationships with mothers and doing the “family meeting” work to let go of ancestral pain.
• Together, they celebrate being “late bloomers” and the value of evolving on their own timelines.
  • Quote: “We evolve in the time that we are meant to evolve.” – Zoe (59:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sophia (10:05): “There really is so much [internalized misogyny]. And it’s really making a comeback with branding. And I don’t like it.”
• Zoe (12:17): “Audacious acts of joy and resistance… are what we need. It’s what’s going to keep us going.”
• Sophia (28:53): "It is such a radical upset to a system that succeeds on the shrinking of people…"
• Zoe (41:01): "There are so many different selves. And how we honor each of those selves and explore those selves was really interesting to me."
• Sophia (33:10): "Conspiracy theories work because there’s a kernel of truth at the center, and then they build a fantasy of fallacy around it."
• Zoe (51:38): “Creativity thrives in the liminal spaces, when you actually give your brain permission to turn off… when you can surrender and try to be present, that’s when it flows.”
• Zoe (52:31): "Esteemable acts that build self-esteem, not esteem based on external validation…"
• Zoe (59:12): “We evolve in the time that we are meant to evolve.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:10 – Origins: Zoe’s artistic upbringing and feminist mother
• 08:40 – Women’s communities, internalized misogyny, and joy as resistance
• 15:53 – The generative pressure of artistry and executing creative ideas
• 24:38 – Maintaining hope and prioritizing rest amid industry and societal chaos
• 27:26 – Queer and nonbinary identity at the center of cultural shifts
• 31:11 – Making "Consumed," activism, and battling corporate interests
• 38:37 – Female sexuality, identity, and storytelling in "Slip"
• 47:21 – Acting for “fun” in "The Miniature Wife" and balancing heartache
• 51:31 – Rest, creativity, and the necessity of surrender
• 52:00 – Self-work and the “work in progress” for Zoe in 2026
• 56:46 – Family healing, late-blooming, and acceptance

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Conclusion

This episode is a rich, emotional, and often funny exploration of what it means to be an artist, a woman, and a human being in progress. Through stories of family influence, creative struggle, activism, queerness, and healing, Sophia and Zoe exemplify how work, life, and identity are always in motion—and how authenticity and community can light the way forward.

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For further viewing:

• "Slip" and "The Miniature Wife" streaming on Peacock
• "Consumed" (2015), discussed in context of environmental activism

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human

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[Zoe Lister-Jones]

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[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

When I'm choosing a Mother's Day gift, I always ask myself, will this still matter a year from now? And that is why I love the Lenox Spice Village. It is a charming set of 24 hand painted spice jars, each one shaped like a little house. It is beautiful, it's actually useful and it brings a little joy into the everyday, which honestly is where the best moments live. Buying a meaningful gift can be a challenge sometimes, but the Spice Village feels practical and thoughtful and enduring. Plus unique. Just like Mom. Explore the full Lenox Spice village [e-mail] SpiceVillage Sonesta Travel Pass is the most rewarding way to travel, designed to help you get more out of every stay. Sign [e-mail] to enjoy instant savings, bonus points and valuable perks like early check in, late checkout, room upgrades and free stays. Over time. With Sonesta Travel Pass, every stay brings you closer to your next reward. Choose from more than 1100 hotels across 13 distinctive brands and unlock the best available rates when you book direct with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply. Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. My Whip Smarties today. Oh my God, are we joined by a smartie? Indeed. She is a friend of the pod. She is a friend of mine and truly an artist that I admire so much. Zoe Lister Jones is back to talk with us about life and its lessons and we laugh an awful lot and we get to unpack some of the brilliant film show she's made, shows she's made and her new one, the Miniature Wife, which is streaming on Peacock now. Zoe is one of my favorite artists because she has managed to spend the past decade truly redefining what it means to be a multi hyphenate in this industry. She writes, directs and stars in incredibly intimate and fearless stories that explore the complexities of identity and personal ethics. And she might be so incredible at this because she was raised in a family of artists and it might just be because she's truly one of the most brilliant women in my peer group. She really inspires me to ask big questions about life, how we navigate desire, how we navigate love, how we navigate showing up for others without losing ourselves? How do we figure out who we are in a world that constantly asks us what to perform and often rewards us for doing that in ways that means we abandon bits of ourselves? I think what makes Zoe such a fascinating woman to watch is that she really is a living, breathing character study of her own authenticity and inspires the rest of us to lean into that for ourselves too. Let's get into all the Things with our dear Zoe Lister Jones. I'm so excited to get to talk to you about all the things. Me too. What is up? I mean, I have all the questions I ask people, but you've been on the show before, so I guess we have to figure out what bears repeating for new friends.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I know,

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I know we've talked about this, but we'll dive in with a go back to catch up. You grew up in Brooklyn. Your parents were artists. You grew up really surrounded by so much creative energy. When you think about that from where you are as an artist, director, producer, writer today, if you look back at your childhood at 8 or 9, what are. What are the immediate things that zing for you as like, oh, I see. I see how the woman I am today was. Was that little girl.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I mean, my mom was. Was like. I mean, she continues to be, but she taught me so much about the male gaze as it pertained to, like, media and art and film.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Say more

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

like it was sort of imprinted into me at a very young age, whether that was conscious or not. But I think it was pretty conscious on her part. And it was like, I think she just looked at everything through a, like a lens, a sort of feminist lens that was. That then just became, you know, her eyes became my eyes, like, in that way. And I think that influenced my work so much.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And not only, like, my work, but also the process in making my work. Because she was in, like, an all women film collective in the 70s.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

No way.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Called Real Feelings, but spelled R, E E L. And. And I, like, had kind of forgotten that she was a part of that. There was a photo of, like 13 women on a beach and they're all in wedding dresses. And that was like their photo. I mean, ironically, in wedding dresses in the 70s. And so, like, that photo was kind of part of my memory bank of childhood, but it wasn't super frontal. And then when I directed my first film, Band Aid, I decided to make it with a crew made up entirely of women. And. And again, like, my mom reminded me of her feminist filmmaking collective. And I was like, right. Like the influence is just now so kind of cellular that it's unconscious how much I am, you know, doing that. She sort of laid the groundwork for.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Totally. It's interesting, you know, my mom was not an artist. My mom, you know, had her various jobs and then ran my dad's business, which is interesting because she was sort of the business brain behind his artistry.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Oh, interesting.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

But she was very resolute about the education I was to get, the work I was to do. You know, my mom was very much the one that was like, oh, you don't rely on a man for money. You make your own money, you have your own career. You do your own thing. And then having gone to an all girls school, I feel that cellular immersion you're talking about, because it has never occurred to me to not participate in a conversation or raise my hand to offer an answer when a question is asked, because I grew up exclusively in rooms of women who were contributing. And I have seen in my career that my, you know, creativity or verboseness or thoughtfulness that I believe is additive to a conversation can be very off putting to certain men. And I'm like, oh, this is so weird, because I didn't grow up. This. Yeah, what is this?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And to certain women, I mean, like, I think, you know, it's like, unfortunately, there's a lot of internalized misogyny across the board.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

There really is so much. And it's really making a comeback with branding. And I don't like it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

It's really wild. And I am, you know, I. I always just so admire the way that you use your voice. And. And I think something that my mom always taught me was that, like, the personal is political and vice versa, and you embody that, you know, and I try to embody that as best I can. And you.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Sweet soul.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And so I just. You do. I love. I love. Yeah, I just. I love how unapologetic you are, and I'm so grateful to your mom, honestly.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Same and same.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We need to take our moms on a date.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

We should, like, fully.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

They would have so much fun. Also. So weird. But the other day, I was just in LA for a quick shoot for something, and I was driving down. I was on Fountain, you know, it dead ends into La Cienega, but I was going east. And as I'm driving down Fountain, a pack of women in white dresses and veils, like, 11 of them, I counted. I was like, what's going on? Were coming down Fountain and turning down whatever street is right after Sweetser. And I was like, oh, my. And I was in the left lane, so I couldn't make a right. And all I wanted was to turn around and pull over and be like, sorry, you're clearly doing something, but what are you doing? I just need to know what you're all doing. Like a. Like, the reporter in me from journalism school is just. She's impossible to smother. I try sometimes, but clearly you Know from my social media, I cannot. And I was like, what are they doing? And then you just described your mom's. That's actually photographs.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Bone chilling.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And that's so weird to me.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

That's really crazy.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Like in some weird fold of the universe, like, I just saw that pack of women walking through Los Angeles together.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I'm obsessed with whatever, just whatever time space continuum collapsed to make that happen.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I love it, I love it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I love that. I. I mean, at this moment, I feel like audacious acts of, like, joy and resistance, whatever that was, I'm just gonna project that onto that group of women in wedding dresses are like, what we need. It's. Yes, it's what's going to keep us going.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I totally agree. And it's like, I don't know, I'm just kind of leaning into things. I'm letting myself lay in bed when I'm so depressed by the state of the world. And then I'm like, all right, bitch, get up. Do something. Put on an outfit. What do you wear for the end of the world? I don't know. Also give yourself joy and then dive into the zoom, the organizing, whatever it is. But I don't know, I'm sort of remembering that I'm reminding myself that if all we do is the heavy side of the work and we don't do the joyful side of the work, we miss it. And you inspire me in that way so much. You always, when you share something, the reflections are so thoughtful. The way you write about the state of the world is so generous and considered and razor. I mean, with such a razor sharp honesty. And then you're also like going to a thing in the most avant garde outfit. And I'm like, yeah, we need that. Wear the dress. What if the world ended tomorrow and you never wore it and it sat in your closet with a tag on it and you. You remember me to play while I work. Oh, you remember me. You remind me.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I think you remember me. That you remember me. You remember me. I do remember you. Well, I think we remember each other. And that's the beauty of it, because it is like. And thank you. That means so much to me. And I think what we wear to the revolution is key.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I'm into it. Like, I. I feel like there's an idea here we should noodle on for a movie.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Also, because every project you do, I'm like, how am I not doing this with you?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I know.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Also, it's yours and it should be. You are so brilliant. And I'm like, can I come play?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

You can. I mean, I will say, when we did Wayne's World for those listening and we did an all queer women and

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

non binary, and it was a live thing.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Live reading of Wayne's World.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes. In a theater in Los Angeles. We all sat Last Supper style with our music stands and we performed the play to a packed. Just setting the scene for the listeners at home.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And it was the most fun thing ever. And that's the only time that we've actually, like, worked together. But I was so excited when you said, yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We had the best time. And there are moments. And bless the person that you hired to shoot the photos of that night, because there's moments. Obviously, as you're performing, things happen live. And we'd rehearsed it, but it was a short turnaround, as those things tend to be. And there were moments, you and I sat next to each other performing, where I would make you laugh and you'd look at me or you'd do something so funny and I'd double over because I hadn't seen you do it up close yet. And it was happening in real time. And I have those photos and I just cherish them.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Me too.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

They're so great.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

It was such a. It was really. I mean, those moments that are just like sort of pure play.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Are so rare, you know, And I. I cherish them and I try to create them, but they, you know. Yeah, they're hard. They're hard to come by, unfortunately.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

But that's what's so fascinating to me about you. You know, I. I will say, and like, I think part of growing up is admitting what you know and what you don't know. I have a million ideas all the time, and I struggle to know what the next step is sometimes to execute on them. Clearly. I have also since learned that's a very common thing for masking overachieving women with adhd. I'm like, oh, it's not a personal moral failing. It doesn't mean I'm a waste of a human life. Interesting. Okay. But you are such a generative creative, and I think it's often really hard for people to be purely creative and great at the execution. So how have you figured that out for yourself? Is it something you learned by watching your mom and then you figured out how to do? Or has there been kind of a. I don't want to say it's a formula or a protocol necessarily, but did you kind of figure out how to hack a version of a creative formula and then Continue to follow it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I mean, first of all, thank you. That's also really. I love coming on this podcast moment to moment, and it feels so good. So I love you. And I mean, I think it was interesting. Like the household I grew up in, both my mom and my dad are artists. And my dad also influenced me not to put him in the shadows, but, you know, we like to shout out.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You're like, no, dads are great, dads are cool. Some men are cool.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

But they were both artists. My mom was a video artist, my dad was a conceptual photographer. And both of these mediums are not easily commodifiable. Like. Right. So they were making art. But I saw how difficult it was to also, like, make a living.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And so I think, like, in terms of being generative, that actually was something that I was like, I must be generative to live otherwise. Because I had witnessed so firsthand that, like, if art making, at least for my parents, like their art making then had to take a back seat to the jobs they had to get to make money. And not only does that take the time and energy away from your art, but I think it also just creates a sort of heartache that I saw and felt and wanted to avoid. Generally trying to avoid heartache and, you know, it's hard to avoid, but in the areas that we can. So, like, I, I think I learned early that that was something that I wanted to really get good at, was like completing a project, seeing it to its fruition.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And my ex husband and I made like sort of like super micro budget indies in the beginning, like in our 20s. And that was like a huge learning experience about how to make things for little but with, you know, like a good enough production value and to get the community involved, which was also just so much fun to just like get the friends that I loved who were working in various, you know, departments or actors. And then those, those projects, you know, built momentum where then I was given more opportunities to create things. But it's an interesting thing, I will say, and I've been thinking about this recently, like, it's really good to be like process and product oriented. But sometimes if you get too product oriented, I think especially as a woman, like, I can, I have found myself in certain situations, like abandoning my instincts because I'm just like, we gotta get this thing done come hell or high water. And when many cooks are in the kitchen, you know, when you move out of the sort of micro budget world and cooks are in the kitchen, that can sometimes be not an asset. You know, like sometimes it is time to be like I'm not going to make this under these conditions or with these limitations artistically that's not aligned with me. So it's just like a learning curve, you know, as you make more things to be like this is what is in alignment with me and this is what is not in alignment alignment with me. But it's a weird time in the industry so you know, like yeah, getting done takes a little extra muscle now for sure.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Totally. And now for our sponsors.

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[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

When I'm choosing a Mother's Day gift, I always ask myself will this still matter a year from now? And that is why I love the Lenox Spice Village. It is a charming set of 24 hand painted spice jars, each one shaped like a little it is beautiful, it's actually useful and it brings a little joy into the everyday, which honestly is where the best moments live. Buying a meaningful gift can be a challenge sometimes, but the Spice Village feels practical and thoughtful and enduring. Plus unique. Just like Mom. Explore the full Lenox Spice village [e-mail]

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SpiceVillage Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Sonesta Travel Pass is the most rewarding way to travel, designed to help you get more out of every stay. Sign [e-mail] to enjoy instant savings, bonus points and valuable perks like early check in, late checkout, room upgrades and free stays. Over time. With Sonesta Travel Pass, every stay brings you closer to your next reward. Choose from more than 1100 hotels across 13 distinctive brands and unlock the best available rates when you book direct with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] terms and conditions apply. What keeps you hopeful in the face of how weird things are? Because, you know, I can't help but think when you talk about, for example, watching your parents do what they loved and then having to do things they loved less because we live in a world that requires us to do things like pay our rent and our phone bills.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You know, I think about how much harder it is now that private equities bought up all the houses and people can't afford them anymore. That they've bought up all the film studios and now we're struggling to have an industry anymore because someone's looking at a P and L and they think that that's all that matters. Like, how do you, when you zoom out to 30,000ft as the accomplished filmmaker that you are, how do you look at the landscape and stay hopeful? What do you think is the future of it?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Just a casual question for you.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

What's the future of the industry and the world?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You're like, actually, I have a plan. I've got it right up here.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I'll say, like, the spiritual work I'm doing right now is to surrender to the now and try to not future trip and to actually accept the reality that I have no control over what the future holds.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Great. So the key to the future is to stop in thinking about it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I mean, it's like, I think it's exactly what probably we both do. You know, it's like, yeah, staying as like civically engaged as you can while still really like taking care of yourself because. And that, and that bleeds into the creative life too. Like I think as I've gotten older, of course I'm only in my twenties, but, but as I've gotten older, like I like what you were saying and prioritizing rest in a really different way, probably just because I'm tired, but, but I also think I understand more the need to rest in order to.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Engage.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And like I think that is what gives me hope. And I will say also like Gen Z gives me hope. Like I really, I like look to that generation. I learn a lot from them. And I think like, you know, every generation, we can talk about every generation. You know what I mean? But, but I, I think that there's like a level of engagement that feels engagement and sort of thoughtfulness in the people that I know who are like doing the work that, I don't know, it just feels inspired and inspiring to me. What gives you hope?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You know, we do women do the leadership of folks that see more than the rest of us. You know, people who have a non binary existence in their bodies. I think the intense backlash against women first that's coming from the right is because we've had a generation of pseudo equality. And rather than motivating the system of patriarchy to become better, it's motivating it to try to hurt us because we've done more with less. And I think it's actually why trans and non binary people are at the center of that fight and being assaulted in the ways that they are. Because the freedom it requires a human being to not only see, but embody in a cellular way to exist past a binary or a societal prescription for what they should do. And they say you can do whatever you'd like, but I'm, I'm going to do everything I believe I can do. I'm going to be everything I know myself to be. It is such a radical upset to a system that succeeds on the shrinking of people and feeding off of them rather than the expansion of people and the allowing them to flourish.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And I, I watch our trans friends, our non binary friends stand so resolutely in their identities because both they are doing the radical act of. Of acknowledging their own worth. And by acknowledging their worth, they're demanding that we acknowledge the worth of other people to do that in the year 2026, when they are. When they are being. When the people with the least power are being attacked by the people with the most wealth and power in the world. So people who are willing to stand against that kind of power and influence inspire me, you know? Yes. In the same way that I like to be everyone's most affirming cheerleader on the Internet, because it's a cesspool. So I like to leave nice comments for everyone I know and tell all my friends they're hot. I like to look at what people do and be inspired. Like, I think about when I was going over filmography stuff for today, I was like, oh, my God, duh, I forgot about consumed. Like, you and Daryl made that movie in 2015. And I was thinking, oh, my God, you made a dramatic thriller about an issue we're talking about now in these crazy ways, about the complex world of GMOs. You could have made a documentary, but you made it a narrative story because you wanted it to register in a different way. And over 10 years ago, you were talking about the future of food and climate change, but nobody felt like you were smacking them in the face about a climate movie. You know what I mean? And, like, that's fucking radical. And not just rad, like, California charm. I mean, radical in terms of subversive to an industry. And, like, I don't know, Reflecting on that 10 years ago, how do you think about the approach and the inspiration in the first place, knowing where we are now, you know, with this upside down kookiness about, like, red dye but not chemicals being allowed that used to be banned by the epa. Like, what the.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I know it's. I mean, making that movie was so challenging in so many ways.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Was it?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yes. And. And like, you know, Monsanto has now been, like, subsumed by Bayer. So it's sort of an invisible, really nefarious agent in destroying our climate and our food and our soil and all these things. And. And those forces are much more powerful than. I think I understood that I think Daryl or I understood at the time of making it. You know, like, you go to a film festival and the sponsor is Coca Cola. You know, you don't think about those things until you have a film that's sort of poking the bear a bit.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

So I think it was challenging in some ways. It's also. I I think when you. It's interesting because it. It really dropped us into the center of a wellness movement that at the time was Maha didn't exist. Right. But a lot of that community has now horseshoed into Maha. And so I feel really turned upside down because, as you said, like the. The focus on humanity and climate and environmentalism and equity and social justice that felt woven into the fabric of that community is now, to me, just upside down because the integrity is. And obviously that's not the community as a whole, but just I think what Maha has chosen to take from that and then not chosen, as you said,

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

it's figuring out the grift. Right. Like conspiracy theories work because there's a kernel of truth at the center, and then they build a fantasy of fallacy around it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Right.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Fantasy of fallacy. I just came up with that on the fly.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Like the name of your memoir.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Honestly, not. No. And what's fascinating to me, even when you take something as horrific as. As what we've seen in, you know, the half of the trove of the Epstein files we have, is you realize that those. The craziness of QAnon and 4chan and, you know, what started on Backslash poll was started by Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon. They told the kernel of truth about the horrific thing they were doing, and then they dressed it up in something crazy and then they projected it onto the people trying to stop them from doing it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Right. That broke my brain.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It breaks my brain. But when you realize Maha is the same, you know, when you realize that the same people who called Michelle Obama a communist for trying to feed children more vegetables and school lunches are now rallying against science but supporting people that are actively trying to poison them on the. On the behalf of their billionaire donors. You go like, wait a second. But I think part of the reason I got excited to revisit consumed and this no shock in an ADHD brain is a very long way to get us back to what makes me hopeful is like when we think about Gen Z, whether they. And this is not to approve or whatever, this is just to say the through line that excites me. Whether you have hyper conservative Gen Z voters or hyper liberal Gen Z voters, the thing they all care most about statistically is climate. I know they actually agree on that because we should. And that makes me feel excited, that makes me feel hopeful. That makes me feel like we can unpack the grift that has grifted logical movements because they were logical and working. I think we can unpack it and hopefully reclaim the thing we should all care about, which is conserving this planet that we live on so that we might, I don't know, keep living without being poisoned or getting cancer or whatever. And so, I don't know, it. It makes me, in the same ways that I am overwhelmed by how crazy it is. I feel hopeful that there are still things people agree on.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Now. Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah, totally. And I think. I mean, in some ways, my hope lies in the belief that sometimes it has to get really bad for it to get better. And that I think there's something afoot about the. The current state of affairs in the world. While it's, like, really divisive and horrific, that a lot is being uncovered and exposed, and it can be really, like, dizzying, you know, even for people who have, like, 10 toes down on their values, it's so dizzying. But. But I think that kind of exposure, I hope that ultimately it will be, like, a unifying force and that, like, humanity and a love of just being human will prevail rather than the grift, you know, because the grift, like, it is for all of the memes I read, you know, that, like, show up in my algorithm, but, like, it is kind of textbook narcissistic abuse. Right. It's like, yes, you are the perpetrator, and you put your. You sort of project your perpetration onto other people so that then they're, like, dizzied and don't know who's accountable or how to hold anyone accountable. And that's exactly what has happened. But it feels now that, at least with, like, the Epstein files, some of that is being revealed, like what you said.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And that sort of seeing, like, the interconnectedness of all of the oppressive forces is, like, creating just a larger picture.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I hope for people, it's also just crazy to me. And listen, I know we're both women who've always been encouraged to stand in our power, voice our opinion, be educated. Like, you are a person like me who wants to do homework every day about the world, which I love. I get that that's not everybody's bag, but I think when it is and you understand how to unpack men as a system, you know, as patriarchy, how to unpack internalized misogyny, how to figure out, actually the. The incredible power of women to tell stories about them. I mean, you know, what. What you did with Slip, like, it's sort of surreal to move through the world, I think, as women who've sort of seen behind the curtain Also to get divorced. Also to come out. Like, I don't think there's an accident there where you go like, oh, the dynamic I was told was for me actually has never been good for me.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

It's.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's put me in the position of employee, not partner. How. How do you think that journey for you as an individual has influenced your storytelling? Because even when I think about what you did with Slip, and I'll let you talk to the folks at home about the story, but, like, it isn't lost on me that you were the first women in history to have written, directed, and starred in every single episode of a season of television. Like, the first in our age bracket. Like what? And so I realized as far as we've come, we still. We're still making firsts in our generation. So I guess I just wonder how, from the personal to professional, you square the journey and then figure out how to storytell out of it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I mean, well, Slip was. Slip was interesting. It was sort of. It sort of bridged my coming out journey in terms of the personal and the professional parallels. But basically the story is a woman who is in a marriage that is feeling really stagnant and sleeps with someone one night in a sort of fit of despair and wakes up the next morning married to him. And then over the course of the series, she learns that through orgasm, she's being teleported to parallel universes. I love it so much. And so every episode, like the. The central set piece is her orgasm, and it catapults her into a different life that she's living with a different person and. And, you know, she's with a woman. She's with, like, really a variety of people.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Which I think was. You know, it does sort of mirror the journey of queerness where you're like.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

When you're. Especially later in life, queers like you and I, that, like, we. Yeah. That it's. It's a process, obviously, that unfolds. Yeah. And for me, it was like, who. Who am I? Like, there are all these different versions of me that exist simultaneously. And I, you know, narratively told that as parallel universes, but I think in every person there are so many different selves.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And how we honor each of those selves and explore those selves was really interesting to me. And then through the lens of, like, female sexual pleasure, which felt relatively untapped, you know.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And still so taboo.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah. Yeah. And I had, like. I Remember when. When 50 shades of gray came out as a book, everywhere I went There was a woman whose like face was like pressed into the pages and I was like, oh, this is. There's a collective hunger among women for sexually explicit material that like is also woven into a story. But like, yeah, we've been so historically deprived of being able to just be unapologetically horny, you know what I mean? And so I wanted to make a horny show too. Like that could turn women and men and non binary folk on. You know, it got nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards, which was a dream come true for best new TV show and best actress and or its actor. They actually don't gender that category of the indie spirits, which I love. And it was my baby. But it was also so exciting to me that something like that could exist in the world. And it felt like there was maybe a shift in the ability to portray women not only as objects of desire but as like agents of it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And now Slip is streaming on Peacock for new audiences to discover. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

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[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

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[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

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[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah, I mean, I'll say that. Like miniature wife. I'm. I'm solely acting in it, which is always a gift. You know, as a person who wears a lot of hats, I was wondering

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

if that felt like a relief a little bit, just to show up and be an actor and not have to make 47 other decisions throughout the day.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

It is so much fun. And it's Elizabeth. It's Elizabeth banks and Matthew McFaddy and play the central couple in it. And they're both just, like, unbelievable actors. Most of my scenes were with Matthew, and so to just, like, show up and, like, we were talking about before, just, like, play, you know, just like, absolutely play. And the show is so much fun because it's so playful. Like, it's about a man who shrinks his wife. So it's like, honey, I shrunk the wife. But it's about, you know, power dynamics in a relationship. So it's also very relatable, but it's through this sort of escapist, fantastical lens. And so showing up on set, like, tonally, it was such an opportunity to just be really playful, and that was so much fun. But I'm also developing a TV show and developing a movie, and so it was really nice to be able to do all of those things, but to get to go just shoot something and distract myself from that. And it shot in Canada, and it shot right when Trump was inaugurated, so it was like a sort of perfect escape route. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's so important to, like, there are so many opportunities for heartache in a life, you know, like that and that and that. They're. They're just. That they're opportunities. Like, they're also opportunities to learn so much about yourself and to learn about what you want to do next and to learn about, like, your fortitude, too. Like, that's not gonna. That's not gonna stop me, you know?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. I do think when, you know, you've put your heart and soul into something and it's partially works or works and then doesn't, or, you know, whatever can happen to us in the space of it. Yeah. Throwing yourself into other things that are just fun is so important. And it's. It's really interesting. After the Last show that I had worked on and produced, which we loved, but just all the timing was off. You know, when you realize, like, oh, God, it's like being. It's like being two beats off the clap. It's just so terrifying, terrible. You're like, this would have worked before or later, but not now.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Like, I gave myself a homework assignment to really just go and have fun and to produce a comedy about a mother and daughter that I did with Lauren Holly, to go and do this other great comedy that I just did with Jerry o'. Connell. Like, things that are. Jerry, he's. He's a perfect human. He's the perfect things, truly, just for fun, even going and, like, in between all the movies, going back and forth to Grey's, like, I just get to go have a good time. I literally get to go stir the pot and then be like a med student. And I. I needed that a little bit. I needed to not have the whole weight of something on me. I needed to go have a really fucking good time as an actor with people who I adore and hear 90s Rom com stories from Lauren and, like, go and just shoot the, you know, between scenes with Ellen Pompeo. Like, that's my girl. She reminds me of. She has the same kind of energy of, like, all my cousins from New York that I'm just obsessed with. And, like, the last sort of stint for me has reminded me why I love our job so much and how much fun I have doing it. And now I'm like, okay, I think I'm ready to go create something.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Great.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

But I. I needed to not put that pressure on myself for a beat and just love it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

No, unfortunately, I don't think, like, creativity thrives under pressure.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Mine sure doesn't.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

It thrives in, like, the liminal spaces, you know, it thrives when you wake up or when you're in the shower or, you know, like, that's when I always get my ideas. It's like when I actually give my brain permission to turn off, which I think goes back to, like, the idea of surrender. Like, when you can kind of just surrender and try to be present, that's when I think it flows.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I love that. Well, maybe it's surrender, maybe it's something else. But when you. When you think about this moment for you, whether it's, you know, in your own personhood or as an artist or a creator, like, on any level, what feels like your work in progress?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Oh, my God, there is so much work in progress.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's Solving the crisis of the film industry, darling.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I mean, my work in progress at the moment is Myself is like. It's a really corny and vague answer, but, like acts of self love, like esteemable acts that build self esteem, not esteem based on external validation. That is a work in progress and I am working it. But it's really a wild thing, I think, you know, when you. When you start to really. When I start to really pay attention to how much negative self talk exists in a day that I have just been kind of like accepting as the norm until I put a microscope on it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

That's like my current work in progress, obviously. You know, I also don't want to be like, too navel gazing in a moment that requires a lot of engagement. So, like, I think it is personal and spiritual surrender, but like civic engagement.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It kind of has to be all of it, right?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah. I think that's like. That's the journey. That's the current journey.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Yeah, I feel that. I feel that. And figuring out. Figuring out what. Navel gazing, as a phrase, is actually quite necessary for growth. And then also when to just stop and do other things. You know, I think sometimes, at least for me, as much as I'm like, rah, rah, women can do everything, I realize I haven't addressed how much negativity society encourages us to practice on ourselves.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And it's been a really interesting thing being in my relationship with Ash. She will stop me sometimes and be like, you are so hard on yourself. Stop it. Like, stop. And I don't realize how unkind I'm being to myself until the person who I love, the most important in the world, who loves me, is hurt by how little love I show myself.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And that is this sort of revelatory thing where I go, oh, I'm probably going to have to shift this dynamic if I want to make the art I desire to be a part of or. Or create the sustainable change I believe is possible. I think it does start on the inside. And then also there's moments where I'm like, oh, shut the fuck up and get out of your own way and just go do the thing. Like, you know, in the timeline of us doing this last night, yesterday was Trans Day of visibility, and it was also National Run for Something Day, National Run for Office Day. And I got on the Run for Something Zoom last night because I was like, things are terrible and the Supreme Court fucking sucks and what are we doing? And I just. I sat on his zoom for 90 minutes, like, in the backstage waiting room, just listening to inspiring people talk. And by the time I had to talk, I was like, I feel so much hope. I needed this.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yes. I think it is. It's like, it is. Finding that balance is so important because too much self work, you know, can also, like, bleed into perfectionism, which then is part of the. The bad part where you're like, I must be perfect. I must figure this out. It is about, like, interrupting it with also, like, investing in your community and. And getting out of your own way. So I love that you did that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Trying, like, literally just, you know, I feel like the cartoon of, like, Mrs. Incredible just stretched as far just trying to catch all the things. But, like, we're not giving up, you know? Know.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

No.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We're bruised, we're battered. We're getting up for another round.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I just love getting to spend an hour with you.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Me too. I'm so inspired by you always.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, same. And please tell Sammy I just adore them. I hope we all get to hang ii very soon.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

My God, I would love a double.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Me too. And with our moms.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

A double date with our moms.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We have to. That's.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I can't wait.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Like, I actually can't wait to see them in the same space.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I would love that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Right?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I'm really. I'm. I've really hit a stride where I like hanging out with my mom quite a bit.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Isn't that nice?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We didn't always have that, and we're in, like, a really fun zone now.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

That's so nice. What do you think changed?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Honestly, I think there was work she had to do, which I have so much grace for. But also I'm like, I. I can't be the one to do it for you. And I think there were life lessons that I needed to learn to understand what she had been through. And I think on the other side of us both going through a real sort of deconstruction of life pattern. Like, I finally looked at my parents and was like, oh, my God, I've literally repeated every mistake you guys ever made. And that's not actually my fault or your fault. We never talked about any of it. And we finally sat down and did, like, the family meeting and talked about everything, and it was so hard. But on the other side, it was like we had. We had shed all this. That wasn't any of ours to carry. Yeah. And it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means we're not continuing to carry it on our backs. And now we really like hanging out with each other because all of our. All of our pain that's on our backs isn't like stabbing each other over, you know?

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Right. Yes, totally.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's really interesting.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

And that is, like, a testament to doing the work on yourself that it then allows you to, like, connect in a totally different way.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And then I was like, I do understand why I rejected the navel gazing because I was unkind to myself and was like, you privileged bitch. Like, you've been on TV since you were 20. Go do shit for other people. But I'm like, maybe I should have just applied like 10% of that work to me because maybe it wouldn't have taken me 20 adult years to have some aha.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Moments. That's right. Aha.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Aha.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

But you know what? Don't blame yourself. That's part of the problem. Problem.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. No. Just let myself up off the mat.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Listen, we. We evolve in the time that we are meant to evolve.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That part. I've always been a late bloomer. Here I am.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Same, same. Always. And that's like, honor that. That's nice.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We did it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

Yeah. We did it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We did it, Joe. I know. Will hold it.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

We're holding it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. I just love you.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

I love you too.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Zoler omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair, 150 milligrams, is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Metabolism Ignite Advertisement Voice]

A doubly certified obgyn and endocrinologist doctor, a naturopathic doctor and a certified health coach walk into a room.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

What do they talk about?

[Metabolism Ignite Advertisement Voice]

GLP1 of course, but more specifically the difference between the synthetic version of your body's hormone that are prescribed by doctors nationwide versus metabolism ignite product which naturally increases your body's GLP1 by 61%. GLP1 side effects can lead to nausea, fatigue and muscle loss, whereas Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and there are no side effects. Some long term results of GLP1 links to weight gain after stopping the synthetic drug which has been proven in multiple studies. In comparison to Metabolism Ignite, there is no weight regain and this product supports metabolic health. Join the 50,000 customers by skipping the needles and taking two capsules of metabolism Ignite a day for sustained weight loss with plant based therapy. Visit V E R A C I T Y Health co promo code iheart for up to 65% off your order today.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

When I'm choosing a Mother's Day gift, I always ask myself, will this still matter a year from now? And that is why I love the Lenox Spice Village. It is a charming set of 24 hand painted spice jars, each one shaped like a little house. It is beautiful, it's actually useful, and it brings a little joy into the everyday, which honestly is where the best moments live. Buying a meaningful gift can be a challenge sometimes, but the Spice Village feels practical and thoughtful and enduring. Plus unique. Just like Mom. Explore the full Lenox Spice village [e-mail] SpiceVillage travel smarter, not Harder at America's Best Value Inn by Sonesta. With convenient locations from coast to coast and value packed comfort at every turn, it's a practical choice for road trips, quick getaways and everyday travel that keeps things simple without sacrificing comfort. And when you're a Sinesta Travel Pass member, staying at America's Best Value Inn means earning points toward free nights, upgrades and more every time you stay. Go to sinesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sinesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

[Zoe Lister-Jones]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.