Podcast
Working to Work
Hosted by Samuel Robinson · EN
Working to Work explores the intersection of neurodivergence and employment, asking why autistic people and the wider neurodivergent community often struggle to obtain and sustain meaningful work, and how that significantly shapes not only their working lives but their lives as a whole. Through incisive interviews with neurodivergent creatives, as well as politicians, academics, and business leaders, the series examines interpersonal and structural barriers and practical solutions.
21episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
S2 EP11: Creative skills programmes - The game before the game?
Apr 2700:52:07Tap to summarizeIn this episode, I speak with Yasmine Dankwah, the creator of Pathways, a podcast exploring how people try to find their way into the creative industries through skills development programmes. Drawing on her own experiences, Yasmine reflects on the realities of navigating these opportunities, from the process of applying to dealing with rejection. We talk about how Pathways emerged as a creative response to these experiences - using sound, storytelling, and a game-inspired structure to question how these “pathways” actually function. 00:00 Introduction to Working to Work 02:53 Yasmine introduces her creative background 04:40 Navigating freelance creative employment 05:55 The challenge of professional articulation 06:33 Finding supportive multifaceted work environments 08:36 Dyslexia, ADHD and application fatigue 12:02 Deconstructing the generic job description 14:27 Inspiration behind the Pathways Podcast 16:30 Understanding creative skills development programs 18:59 Outcome-centred vs person-centred approaches 22:09 Identity resource lacks and artistic safe spaces 23:41 Responding to progressive tokenism in theatre 25:48 Rejecting masking and industry conformity 28:50 Collective solidarity and alternative funding routes 31:56 Gamification and sound design concepts 35:27 Breakdown of Pathways episode topics 39:38 Reducing emotional labour in applications 41:09 Navigating the reality of rejection 44:27 The institutional responsibility of organisations 46:23 Neurodiversity and intersectionality in the arts 48:23 Better structural support for neurodivergence 49:08 Rethinking rigid evaluation data forms 51:11 Final thoughts and wrapping up ~ Resources: Pathways Podcast: YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLfrQfmbUA9DECeAu-mVYoPBpDLfC_zGI&si=9lpXUjQTLjotVOBk Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7GUWvM7DN3TpBWIK87ADKe?si=B-ugiXpFSjCXmj7GiTCFlw Neurodiversity In Music: Improving Access Shakira Alleyne’s documentary exploring best practices, barriers, and next steps in supporting Neurodivergent creatives in the Music Industry/Education sector. https://youtu.be/DImV7c6RWFk?si=ir9RWHOilWqsmEVE Wired4Music: https://www.wired4music.co.uk Sound Connections: https://www.sound-connections.org.uk
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S2 EP10: Question Everything — Math, ADHD, and Honesty Online | Youngmin Park (Part 2)
Oct 600:56:21Tap to summarizeWhat happens when a scientist turns his attention to his own mind?Assistant professor Youngmin Park shares how he began questioning the science behind ADHD, and what honesty looks like when you’re living the research. In this second part of my conversation with Youngmin Park, a mathematical biologist and professor at the University of Florida, we turn our attention to his YouTube channel, ADHD Mathematician. We talk about what motivated him to start sharing his experiences publicly, how he approaches openness with both care and honesty, and the ways his thinking about ADHD and mental health has evolved over time. We also discuss courage, vulnerability, and how the internet can both connect and confine us – and why, for Youngmin, authenticity is worth the risk. I had a few ongoing technical challenges with this recording, so apologies again for the less-than-optimal video quality, but I hope you’ll still enjoy this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation. Youngmin’s website: https://youngmp.github.ioADHD Mathematician: https://www.youtube.com/@UCLtlPRveA1APQnGAI2YVDGw
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S2 EP9: How I became a math professor with ADHD | Youngmin Park
Sep 2900:59:23Tap to summarizeI became aware of Youngmin through his YouTube channel ADHD Mathematician, in which he explores the research that underpins ADHD and, in a non-prescriptive way, shares his own journey with neurodivergence as it relates to his work, personal life, and sense of self. We’ll be talking more about the channel in the second part of this episode, but in this first hour, Youngmin spoke about his journey to becoming a professor at the University of Florida – despite difficulties, including my patience and self-compassion. I had some technical challenges with this episode, so apologies for the less-than-optimal video quality (I’ve learned for next time!). Youngmin's website: https://youngmp.github.ioADHD Mathematician: https://www.youtube.com/@UCLtlPRveA1APQnGAI2YVDGw
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S2 EP8 - Overcoming adversity to find a unique artistic voice | Abbas Zahedi
Mar 20, 202500:57:10Tap to summarizeI sat down with Abbas Zahedi, a multidisciplinary artist working across sound, installation, and socially engaged practice. Their process-based, site-sensitive approach responds to space, history, and community, shaping work that resists easy categorisation. In this episode, we explore how neurodivergence informs Abbas’s creative practice, their non-linear path into the art world, and the challenges of navigating institutions while carving out space on their own terms. We also discuss access, self-advocacy, and the shifting definitions of success for neurodivergent creatives.
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S2 EP7 - Challenges and successes as an AuDHD musician | Joanna Sternberg
Mar 11, 202500:59:00Tap to summarizeTalented musician and illustrator Joanna Sternberg speaks with me about the themes in their music, the dangers of people pleasing, inspirations, navigating the industry, and the empowering impact of trusted friends. We also speak about the benefits and challenges that come from neurodivergent diagnoses, including autism, ADHD, and dyslexia. Joanna offers suggestions for how aspiring musicians can move from having their music as a private practice to one they can share with friends and beyond. Timestamps: 00:00 Coming up in this episode03:16 Jo's introduction05:33 Themes in 'I've Got Me'09:58 Themes in 'People Are Toys To You'11:41 What sobriety offered Jo12:38 What neurodivergent diagnosis offered Jo13:30 The impacts of people pleasing16:11 What Jo's music offers them and others20:36 Elliott Smith and other inspirations 23:45 Social anxiety challenges 28:18 Jo's journey in the music industry32:00 Difficultly knowing who to trust34:48 Suggestions for developing music practice 36:32 Trusted friends help building confidence37:30 Jo's voice, it's evolution, and vocal trends45:57 Jo's advice for using social media48:00 Band names vs one's own name50:40 Jo asks about Sam's 'Kalou' music52:45 Balancing self-hatred and self-awareness54:15 Relating to autism 55:50 Jo's self-support strategies 58:00 Sam's outro Joanna's music: https://joannasternberg.bandcamp.com/Joanna's website: https://www.joannasternberg.comWorking to Work website: https://kalou.co.uk/w2w.htmlSam's music: https://kalou.bandcamp.com/
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S2 EP6 - ‘Jack Tisson’ helps me explore ‘neurodivergent’ differences | Shaun
Mar 3, 202500:58:51Tap to summarizeYouTuber Shaun speaks with Sam about his character ‘Jack Tisson’ — created to explore the causes of, and potential solutions to, challenges he’s experienced with work, and his wider life. Shaun's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UC3rlvVTY6_AevLtr9rQjQnQ
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S2 EP5 - Making art without a mask | Elinor Rowlands
Feb 24, 202500:59:50Tap to summarizeArtist and Writer Elinor Rowlands speaks with Sam about navigating a creative career as a neurodivergent person and the work they’re doing to support other autistic/ADHD artists to thrive through their Magical Women project. 00:00 Coming up in this episode 05:58 What Elinor believes creative practice offers that is essential for neurodivergent artists 08:44 Barriers Elinor has experienced in their career they relate to being autistic10:00 Elinor’s experience of 'abeism' and reaction to 'outsider art'22:27 The challenges of identifying the type of support one needs to thrive 23:50 How Elinor found the right kind of professional support and what that looks like in practice27:05 The creation and evolution of magical women, an initiative bringing together marginalised women and non-binary artists47:30 Elinor’s creative practice and how they’ve incorporated stimming into their methodology Throughout this episode, I’ve included some audio-visual examples of Elinor’s work, more of which is available on their website: https://www.elinorrowlands.com Click title to read: 'Beauty in the Gothic: Forms of Autistic Aesthetics': https://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/ought/article/1177/&path_info=Beauty_20in_20the_20Gothic.pdf Please do follow the show to be notified when new episodes are released, and leave a rating and review if you appreciate it, or have feedback. You can subscribe to the YouTube channel for video versions of each episode, and the opportunity to engage via the comments section. For more, see the Working to Work home page, and follow on Instagram @workingtoworkuk
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S2 EP4 - Outsider Music and Me | Daniel Wilson (Meadow House)
Feb 14, 202500:58:49Tap to summarizeDaniel Wilson (Meadow House, Post Electronics, Oscillatorial Binnage) joins Sam to discuss being labelled an outsider musician—how he relates to the term, and whether it connects to neurodivergence. They explore the challenges of sustaining a creative career outside conventional structures and how Dan’s approach to sound and music reflects a truly divergent way of thinking—one that embraces what he calls “a point of difference.” Topics Discussed:• Being labelled an outsider musician – How Dan has been described as an outsider artist, how he relates to that label, and whether it resonates with his own creative identity.• Sustaining a creative career outside conventional structures – The challenges of making a living as an experimental musician working outside mainstream support systems.• The evolving meaning of outsider art – How the term “outsider” has changed over time and whether it still holds relevance today, especially in an internet age.• A divergent approach to music and sound – Dan’s creative philosophy, his use of unconventional methods (e.g., tape dropping, found objects, and Post Electronics), and his emphasis on creating a “point of difference.” Chapters:00:00 Coming up in this episode 00:29 Episode intro04:00 Dan discusses his creative work04:53 Tape dropping08:21 Developing post-electronics and Oscillatorial Binnage10:34 Dan on ‘creating a point of difference’12:27 How Dan gains opportunities (I)13:46 MTV work16:16 Dan’s relationship with the label ‘outsider musician’22:22 What can ‘othering’ mean?25:35 Daphne Oram’s ‘mismatched impedance’ theory 27:14 Mental health vs creative output 31:00 Dan on the history of outsider art34:44 Are labels like ‘outsider’ useful?39:36 How Dan gains opportunities (II)40:46 Post-pandemic challenges39:39 What support would benefit ‘outsider artists’?47:54 Commission success (Radionics Radio)52:05 What has Dan learnt through his career?54:11 Episode outro
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S2 EP3 - How ChatGPT helps ADHD work for me | Justin Borge
Feb 3, 202500:49:34Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Working to Work, I speak with Justin Borge, a ChatGPT enthusiast who has found innovative ways to use AI to support his ADHD. We explore how AI can be a non-judgmental, always-available tool that helps neurodivergent individuals enhance their strengths and overcome challenges in work and creativity. Topics covered:• How Justin first started using ChatGPT and how it evolved into an essential tool.• AI as a support system for executive function challenges.• Using AI to translate complex information into more digestible formats.• How ChatGPT can help with structuring ideas and following through on projects.• The ethical considerations of relying on AI while maintaining creative autonomy. More from Justin at justinborge.com 00:00 – Coming up in this episode00:41 – Intro and welcome to Working to Work01:20 – Introducing today’s episode: ChatGPT as a tool for neurodivergent creatives02:00 – Guest introduction: Justin Borge and his experience with ChatGPT03:50 – How Justin first discovered ChatGPT and his early experiments with it05:40 – How ChatGPT became an essential tool for ADHD support07:20 – Using ChatGPT to simplify complex information and create personalised learning approaches08:50 – Example of using ChatGPT to translate concepts into baseball analogies10:30 – ChatGPT as a non-judgemental, always-available support system13:40 – How ChatGPT helps with organisation and memory recall16:50 – Using ChatGPT to structure workflow and action steps19:30 – Ethical concerns around AI and its impact on work23:30 – ChatGPT as a tool to support neurodivergent creatives in realising their ideas29:10 – Using ChatGPT to summarise and engage with long-form content like YouTube videos31:20 – Trust and accuracy concerns when relying on AI-generated summaries34:40 – Learning how to use ChatGPT efficiently and developing better prompts40:10 – ChatGPT’s impact on productivity and reducing work-related anxiety44:40 – Potential risks of relying on AI for ADHD support47:50 – AI as a way to externalise thoughts and work through challenges49:00 – Final thoughts from Justin on how to approach ChatGPT as an ADHD-friendly tool51:00 – Outro and summary of key takeaways52:10 – Encouragement to share and support Working to Work
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Bonus: Why Flexibility Matters in Creative Spaces | Shakira Alleyne
Jan 28, 202500:07:49Tap to summarizeShakira Alleyne reflects on how rigid structures in creative programs can stifle participation, especially for neurodivergent individuals. Sharing her experience with unstructured environments, she highlights the importance of autonomy and flexibility in helping people thrive and feel included.
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