American War of Independence: Fourth of July Special

Summary

American War of Independence: Fourth of July Special

You're Dead to Me – BBC Radio 4 Release Date: July 4, 2025

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Introduction

In a landmark 250th anniversary episode of You’re Dead to Me, host Greg Jenner delves into the complexities of the American War of Independence with the assistance of two distinguished guests: Professor Frank Cogliano, a renowned expert in American History from the University of Edinburgh, and Patton Oswalt, an Emmy and Grammy Award-winning comedian and actor.

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The Number of British Colonies

Contrary to the commonly held belief, the British Empire encompassed 26 colonies in North America and the Caribbean prior to the revolution, not just the famed 13.

Prof. Frank Cogliano [06:06]: “There were 26 colonies in British North America and the Caribbean.”

Patton Oswalt humorously reacts to this revelation, highlighting a gap in popular American education.

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British Economic Interests and Tax Policies

The British government sought to alleviate massive post-war debts by imposing various taxes on the colonies. Initially, the Sugar Act of 1763 aimed to regulate trade by imposing duties on sugar, but its enforcement marked a shift towards revenue generation. This led to greater friction as the colonies had become accustomed to a degree of economic autonomy.

Patton Oswalt [07:53]: “You mean the crab economy in Maryland wasn’t... The whole world wasn’t hinging on that.”

The Stamp Act of 1765, a direct tax requiring the use of stamped paper for official documents, further aggravated tensions, symbolizing a direct assertion of British authority over the colonies.

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Resistance and Repression: From Stamp Act to Coercive Acts

Colonial resistance was epitomized by the Sons of Liberty, who enforced boycotts and organized protests against British taxation. The backlash included violent confrontations such as the Boston Massacre (March 5, 1770), where British soldiers killed five civilians amidst escalating tensions.

Patton Oswalt [16:48]: “Wait, we're going to take a break. We'll be right back. Wait, I'm sorry. Laid back. Bean down is all right.”

In response to persistent defiance, Britain enacted the Coercive Acts of 1774 (also known as the Intolerable Acts), aiming to punish Massachusetts by closing Boston Harbor and revoking the colony’s charter, among other measures.

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Resistance and Repression: From Stamp Act to Coercive Acts

Colonial resistance was epitomized by the Sons of Liberty, who enforced boycotts and organized protests against British taxation. The backlash included violent confrontations such as the Boston Massacre (March 5, 1770), where British soldiers killed five civilians amidst escalating tensions.

Patton Oswalt [16:48]: “Wait, we're going to take a break. We'll be right back. Wait, I'm sorry. Laid back. Bean down is all right.”

In response to persistent defiance, Britain enacted the Coercive Acts of 1774 (also known as the Intolerable Acts), aiming to punish Massachusetts by closing Boston Harbor and revoking the colony’s charter, among other measures.

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Key Incidents: Boston Massacre and the Tea Party

The Boston Massacre significantly escalated tensions, serving as a catalyst for anti-British sentiment. Following this, the Boston Tea Party (December 16, 1773) saw members of the Sons of Liberty discreetly boarded British ships and destroyed 342 chests of tea in protest against the Tea Act.

Patton Oswalt [21:12]: “He says, ‘Oh, we're done.’”

These actions provoked a stringent British response, further alienating the colonists and pushing them towards the path of independence.

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The Move Towards Independence: Continental Congress and the Declaration

In the wake of oppressive legislation, the First Continental Congress convened, with Peyton Randolph of Virginia presiding as the first president of this body.

Patton Oswalt [23:50]: “What's his name? George Washington. No, no, no… Peyton Randolph.”

The Declaration of Independence, primarily authored by Thomas Jefferson, was drafted in June 1776 and formally adopted on July 4, 1776. Notably, the document initially included a clause condemning the slave trade, which was subsequently removed to secure unanimous support.

Patton Oswalt [25:47]: “I'M not happy without my property.”

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The War: Major Battles and Turning Points

Key battles during the conflict included:

• Lexington and Concord (April 19, 1775): The war commenced with these skirmishes, famously referenced as the "shot heard around the world."

• Battle of Bunker Hill (June 1775): Although technically a British victory, the heavy casualties inflicted on British forces demonstrated the colonists' resilience.

• Battle of Saratoga (1777): A pivotal American victory that convinced France to enter the war as an ally to the colonies.

• Siege of Yorktown (1781): The decisive battle where combined Franco-American forces besieged General Cornwallis, leading to his surrender and effectively ending major hostilities.

Prof. Frank Cogliano [43:25]: “The British empire continues to grow and thrive for another century.”

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Internals: Unity and Conflicts within the Continental Army

Despite military successes, internal conflicts plagued the Continental Army. The formation of the Conway Cabal saw dissent among officers questioning George Washington’s leadership.

Patton Oswalt [46:38]: “They are quarreling like cats and dogs.”

These power struggles threatened the unity of the revolutionary forces but were ultimately quelled, ensuring Washington’s continued leadership.

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The Treaty of Paris and Aftermath

The Treaty of Paris (1783) concluded the war, with Britain recognizing American independence and ceding extensive territories. The treaty's negotiations were marked by discussions over fishing rights and territorial boundaries.

Prof. Frank Cogliano [50:32]: “They think this is going to fail. They're going to get back, they're going to get all this back.”

This generous allocation of land laid the foundation for the United States' westward expansion, while Britain adjusted its colonial policies to prevent future uprisings.

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Nuance Window: British Perspective

In the Nuance Window, Prof. Frank Cogliano emphasizes that the American Revolution should be viewed as both American and British history. He argues that the conflict exposed limitations within the British Constitution in managing overseas territories, leading to significant constitutional reforms in Britain itself.

Prof. Frank Cogliano [53:37]: “The American Revolution is a failure of the British Constitution.”

This reciprocal learning ensured the British Empire's resilience and adaptability post-revolution.

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Quiz Segment

To test Patton Oswalt’s grasp of the discussed topics, Greg Jenner conducts a quickfire quiz:

1. How many colonies were there?
   Patton: "There were 26 colonies."
   [55:02]

2. Which group was responsible for the Boston Tea Party?
   Patton: "The Sons of Liberty."
   [55:17]

3. Name the British acts of Parliament that punished Massachusetts after the Tea Party.
   Patton: "The Coercive Acts or the Intolerable Acts."
   [55:24]

4. Who was the first president of the First Continental Congress?
   Patton: "Peyton Randolph."
   [55:43]

5. What was King George III's reaction to the Olive Branch Petition?
   Patton: "He claims he did not read it, but... he left it on read."
   [55:59]

6. What was the name of Thomas Paine's popular 1776 pamphlet calling for independence?
   Patton: "Common Sense."
   [56:10]

7. Can you name two of the five drafters of the Declaration of Independence?
   Patton: "Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson."
   [56:28]

8. Who did the Americans sign the Treaty of Alliance with in February 1778?
   Patton: "France."
   [56:53]

9. What was John Adams' complaint about the Continental army officers during the war?
   Patton: "They were a bunch of messy bitches that were all fighting over George Washington."
   [57:07]

10. Which siege in 1781 marked the end of the conflict?
    Patton: "The siege at Yorktown."
    [57:16]

Patton impressively answers most questions correctly, though humorously struggles with less prominent figures like Roger Sherman and Robert Livingston.

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Conclusion

The episode effectively navigates the intricate tapestry of the American War of Independence, blending rigorous historical analysis with comedic insights. By highlighting both well-known and obscure aspects of the revolution, You’re Dead to Me offers listeners a comprehensive and entertaining exploration of a pivotal moment in history.

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Notable Quotes:

• Prof. Frank Cogliano [06:06]: “There were 26 colonies in British North America and the Caribbean.”

• Patton Oswalt [16:48]: “Wait, we're going to take a break. We'll be right back. Wait, I'm sorry. Laid back. Bean down is all right.”

• Patton Oswalt [25:47]: “I'M not happy without my property.”

• Prof. Frank Cogliano [53:37]: “The American Revolution is a failure of the British Constitution.”

• Patton Oswalt [54:34]: “Ruining the world since 1776.”

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and humorous exchanges between the guests, providing a rich and engaging overview for those who haven’t listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It had never been done before. Gonna launch like a rocket and land like an airplane. And we got people on it.

[Patton Oswalt]

Roger.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

13 Minutes presents the Space Shuttle. Coming soon.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Join me, Alex Von Tunzelman for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, Greg here. Welcome to a special fourth of July episode of youf're Dead to me. To mark 250 years since the start of the American War of independence in 1775, this is a special one off. The series will start properly in a few weeks on 8 August, but remember, if you're in the UK, you'll find episodes available 28 days earlier than any other app. If you listen on BBC Sounds, Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are chucking our tea in the harbour and charging back to the 18th century for a very special 250th anniversary episode about the American War of Independence, American revolution, whatever you call it. And to help our cause, we have two fearsome freedom fighters. In History Corner, he's a professor of American History at the University of Edinburgh where his research focuses on revolutionary and early national America. Maybe you've read one of his wonderful books including A Revolutionary Washington, Jefferson and the American Republican is Professor Frank Cogliano. Welcome, Frank.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Thank you very much, Greg. I'm thrilled to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, he is an Emmy and Grammy Award winning comedian and actor. You'll know him from many of my favorite sitcoms including BoJack, Horseman, A.P. bio, Parks and Recreation, Feep, Brooklyn, Nine Nine, the Goldbergs, the King of Queens. What an amazing CV list. His amazing film career has put him in the Marvel Universe, the Zoolander, Zooniverse, the Ghostbusters, Go Liversee and the Pixar 2 universe. He is Remy the Rat himself. From Pixar's Ratatouille is the wonderful Patton Oswalt. Welcome Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

Thank you, Greg. I'm looking forward to winning some big prizes today.

[Greg Jenner]

So happy to have you here. I'm a big fan. But also, you've played historians in things. You've played a history professor in 22 Jump Street.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, that's right. I did.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, you did.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

And also famously, as a filibustering history buff in Parks and Rec, you literally changed Star wars canon.

[Patton Oswalt]

I affected Star wars canon, yes. A thing that I riffed on Parks and recommended where I pitched the next Star wars sequels. They used it as the template for the opening shot of the series book of Boba Fett. It felt very gratifying.

[Greg Jenner]

I also believe you are named after General Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

I was, yes. I was named after George S. Patton. My dad was a Marine. Had high hopes and glad to be here today on this podcast. I'm sure he's very proud.

[Greg Jenner]

If you've played a historian and you are the son of a proud military man, do you know a fair bit about American military history?

[Patton Oswalt]

I mean, I like history a lot. I read a of history. I really enjoy Thomas Cahill's books. I love hinge history moments. That's something that I'm kind of obsessed with where, oh, something could have completely gone the other way. Clive James is really deep into that kind of world of. I think his quote is like, history is basically a record of the way things didn't have to be. I love that aspect of it. So, yes, as much as I know about American history, and I'm speaking for a lot of Americans, I did not learn about the Tulsa massacre until I saw it on the HBO show Watchmen, which I think a lot of Americans didn't know about. There's also in the new movie Sinners, Ryan Coogler's Sinners. There's a whole Asian diaspora that ended up in the American south that we only learned about when we watched this sexy rhythm and blues vampire movie. So that's how a lot of American history ends up getting taught.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, there's worse ways than the pop culture movies.

[Patton Oswalt]

As long as it still gets through.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly. Exactly. All right, so I feel like you probably know a fair bit, but we'll be testing you today to see what's stuck and what else we can teach you. So what do you.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

This is the.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And surely everyone knows that July 4, 1776, was Independence Day in America. Or was it? Hence the episode. There's no shortage of pop culture reminders from the truly terrible Mel Gibson Film the Patriot to the truly incredible Hamilton musical by Lin Manuel Miranda. Or for slightly subtler references, you've got Nic Cage in National Treasure featuring a treasure map. Or on the back of the Declaration of Independence. Or Will Smith nuking an alien spacecraft on the 4th of July in Independence Day. Like I said, subtle. But why did American colonists rebel against Britain? How did they defeat an imperial superpower? And can we spill the tea on why Bostonians spill the tea? Let's find out. Patton, let's test your knowledge.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, God. By the way, we're both Americans. Did you bring us here to apologize or for revolting or. It is a weird. It's a little weird that you brought two Americans in for this.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, as Frank likes to point out, he's lived in Scotland for how many years?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Ooh, 32 years.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, you're exempt. All right, Paddon, let's test your knowledge. How many British American colonies were there in British America prior to the revolution?

[Patton Oswalt]

13.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a good canonical answer. And that is the answer I would have given. But.

[Patton Oswalt]

But.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Okay, the professor's gonna say, well. Well, actually.

[Patton Oswalt]

You can't see it, but he's pushing his glasses back up his nose before he speaks. That's classic. That's like a samurai bringing his sword out when the professor pushes his glasses back. Get ready. Blood's gonna get spilled.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, actually, Patton, there were 26 colonies in British North America and the Caribbean. Oh, this is something that we as Americans are not usually taught.

[Patton Oswalt]

I certainly wasn't.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So if I may.

[Greg Jenner]

Greg, please.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So what happened was the English, and I'm using English deliberately in this context. Apologies to our Scottish listeners. During the 17th century, the English established colonies. The colonies we know of, on the Eastern seaboard of North America.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But under the Stuarts, they also established colonies elsewhere in North America and importantly, in the Caribbean. And by the mid 18th century, when Britain emerges victorious from the Seven Years war, it's got 26 colonies. So there are the 13 that rebel. And just for our listeners, we'll see if I can name them. Right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, go for it.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

New Hampshire.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.

[Greg Jenner]

He's done it.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So we have the 13 that rebelled to become the United States. But there were other colonies, east and west. Florida, Quebec, the Caribbean colonies.

[Patton Oswalt]

So if they had 26 colonies here, they had a big stake in keeping this place. This meant more than just 13 states rebelling. This was, hey, we've got money in this area.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

A lot of Money, a lot of money. And one thing that I think frequently is not appreciated in the United States is the big money colonies were the ones in the Caribbean where of course, slave based agriculture was being practiced. And they're raising sugar in particular. But that's the engine of the British economy in the 18th century.

[Patton Oswalt]

You mean the crab economy in Maryland wasn't. The whole world wasn't hinging on that.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Shocking. I know.

[Patton Oswalt]

Damn.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so we've got 26 colonies, 13 of them on the eastern seaboard of the States. How do they work as colonies? What's the governments?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

I mean, they're largely self governing. They've kind of grown, developed under their own devices for much of the period, the first hundred years after their settlement. And so each of them has its own assembly, for example, which they see as equivalent to Parliament. They've achieved a degree of autonomy as a result of this. And when Britain wins the Seven Years War with Americans will call the French and Indian War, Britain emerges victorious there. They have to govern this big space, but they're pushing up against people who've developed their own ways of thinking and their own ways of doing things. They're pretty used to governing themselves.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

In Virginia, for example, there's an assembly, the House of Burgesses. But in Virginia, there's a large degree of inequality in society. The great planters dominate the assembly, for example. So there are differences in practice in the different colonies, but broadly speaking, they share this culture, which they believe they got from Britain. They talk about the rights of Englishmen all the time. And they're not wrong about that. But they talk about we've got the rights of Englishmen when we're governing ourselves. That's because we're English or we're British.

[Greg Jenner]

And they've won the Seven Years War. I mean, you could have been speaking French. Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

Exactly. Well, quel d'. Amal. That had happened because I can barely speak English.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I mean, it's the beloved, handsome, wise King George iii, defender of the colonies, the proud defender of the American people. Why are you laughing?

[Patton Oswalt]

The stable chill. George iii.

[Greg Jenner]

It's funny, in Britain, that's sort of how we know him. Later on, he's the mad king, but 20 years after the war. So at this time, he is kind of a chill. He likes farming.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He's Farmer George. Farmer George, the enlightened king.

[Patton Oswalt]

No kidding. When did he start going crazy?

[Greg Jenner]

Very late 1790s, early 1800s. So long after the war. Obvious question, Frank. How does it go so wrong for King George? Because we've heard that Britain has won this seven year war, this very expensive war, and everything is rosy.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So they vanquished France finally, seemingly forever. We'll see. They've driven the French out of North America. They have control over all of eastern North America nominally. This is a great moment of triumph. You mentioned Hamilton a few minutes ago. The musical, not the individual. As Lin Manuel Miranda wrote, winning is easy, governing is hard. So Britain now has all this territory to govern. It's got these fractious colonists to the east of the Appalachian Mountains who are used to doing their own thing. But it also has this massive debt. It has a huge public debt as a result of the war, and it's looking to pay down that debt. Here's a good factoid for you. The average person In Britain pays 26 shillings per year in taxes. The average person in Massachusetts pays one.

[Greg Jenner]

So, well, payout pattern, you owe it.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The Crown says, really?

[Patton Oswalt]

Hang on, let me get my take Zell. Oh my God.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The government says, okay, you need to pay. You've benefited from this conflict. You ought to pay for your own defense.

[Patton Oswalt]

And what did we say? How did we react to that?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, Patton, you may know that Americans love to pay taxes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh my God. Get out of my way. Let me mail this check in.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So what the British did was they instituted various governments, instituted a variety of taxes. The most famous, the one we did learn about in school, the Stamp act, of course, in 1765, is the most infamous. But prior to that, Americans had been paying customs duties, dare I say tariffs?

[Patton Oswalt]

I was waiting for that. Go ahead.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And they'd been paying customs duties historically. And they recognized and accepted the customs duties were an acceptable thing for Parliament to levy on them because it was about regulating trade, not raising revenue. So there's a history there. There was something called the Sugar act, for example, adopted in 1763, which actually lowered the tax on sugar. But Britain decided to collect the tax rather than ignore it as it had been doing. And so they said, you'll pay, but we'll actually. You'll actually pay it. So they institute a bunch of taxes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hang on there, there. You could have a higher tax that we're not going to bother with or we'll lower it, but when it, once it's lowered, we're going to make sure that's it.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Exactly. You've got it. I'm sure your listeners are really interested in the, in the details of British tax policy. The 18th century, there was a 1733 sugar act.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That levied a sugar duty that was high and nobody Paid it. They all just ignored it.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow. For everyone listening on the treadmill right now, you can get it up to six miles an hour. This is where you're going to really feel the burn. We start talking about the British tax system on American sugar. So let's crank those treadmills. I know that you're. Come on, let's. Let's. We got you. We're behind you, man. Go ahead.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. All right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Anyway, there are customs duties, but they also adopt this thing called the stamp act in 1765, and that's unprecedented because it's a direct tax on Americans in.

[Greg Jenner]

Their colonies by making them use stationary imported from London.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. So anything, if you need a will, if you need a deed, it all has to be on specially stamped paper. If you buy a newspaper, people in Massachusetts say, we pay taxes that are levied by our government. We're represented in that government. That's the way the system works. If you're paying 26 times more than we are, you're paying too much tax. And so their position is not necessarily just greed, it's actually, there is kind of intellectual consistency there.

[Greg Jenner]

And there's also the Quartering act, which allows colonial authorities to, you know, to be forced to house British soldiers in public houses, even people's homes.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So there's a pretty large British army in North America at war's end that Americans are being taxed to maintain. But also those soldiers need to be quartered.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And under the Quartering act, they can be put in private homes. Again, this isn't unusual in 18th century Britain.

[Greg Jenner]

No.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

You know, so to some extent, these people who've been claiming we're British are being told, well, if you're British, this.

[Patton Oswalt]

Is what, being British, that was a.

[Greg Jenner]

Normal thing in Britain, what was done back then?

[Patton Oswalt]

I was a soldier. Come.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, come stay in your house.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. And that really led to the boom in romance novels.

[Greg Jenner]

Can we just say that?

[Patton Oswalt]

The handsome young soldier and then the young daughter just bringing. Fetching the water, and then who knows where it leads? You know, we gotta keep that industry going.

[Greg Jenner]

We haven't mentioned the Townsend Acts. They are the one. They're the official parliamentary acts which allow for the taxation of the colonists. Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So what happens is there's widespread resistance to the stamp act in 1765. Parliament repeals it in 1766. But adopt something called the Declaratory act in 1766, which is basically a parent saying, okay, I'm giving in to you, but next time you have to do what I say, because the Declaratory act says, which always works.

[Patton Oswalt]

Always works.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They say, we're repealing the Stamp act, but the Declaratory act says, but we have the authority to tax you in all cases whatsoever. And the following year, they adopt the Townshend duties. The Townshend duties are more import duties, more tariffs. And they say Parliament's view is okay, hang on. You said you don't like direct taxes, but you have been paying customs duties. Now you'll pay these customs duties. Americans say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Custom duties were okay when they were about channeling trade. But if you're doing this to raise revenue, that's a sneaky backdoor way to tax us directly. We're not having it. I don't know whether either of you are parents of teenagers.

[Patton Oswalt]

Actually, I am. I know exactly what they're doing right now. Oh, my God. So I just love that so much of history is just the same dynamic as a parent dealing with psychologically. Okay, if I say they can't do this, they'll go out of their way to do it. So what I should say is. And like, history hinges on that, it's.

[Greg Jenner]

Just George III going, how do I parent my unruly type teenager? They want to stay out all late and wear black. These harsh acts as the Americans saw them, as the colonists saw them. They're not Americans yet. Right. So I shouldn't use that word.

[Patton Oswalt]

Did they call themselves Americans at this point or they were just colonists columnists. Oh, please edit that. Oh, my God.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They're actually bloggers. They're often called British Americans or Americans. I mean, American is somewhat used. And we're gonna get to this, I think. Anyway.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Frank, these harsh parliamentary acts, that they lead to violence. Right. Cause we've got the Boston Massacre in 1770, when British troops are actually firing on people.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So what happened was the resistance to these taxes, beginning with the Stamp act and then through the towns and duties, which you mentioned, Greg, and is mainly centered in the port towns because those are the only cities in the colonies. So Boston, New York, Newport, Richmond, Philadelphia. And that's where the trade is. Yep. Charleston, et cetera. And that's also where there are crowds and sailors who can be mobilized, things like that. And there are groups that form called the Sons of Liberty, that enforce boycotts and resistance to these taxes, unsurprisingly for any listeners who may be familiar with the cultural geography of America, apparently, Pat, and I'm glad you're sitting down. People in Boston can be difficult.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wait, we're going to take a break. We'll be right back. Wait, I'm sorry. Laid back. Bean down is all right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So the resistance was centered in Boston. It wasn't only in Boston, but it was quite. It was most kind of virulent in Boston. And as a result, the British sent troops to Boston in 1768. Redcoat troops. Now, again, those troops previously had been on the frontier.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And when Britain said, we want to tax you to pay for your own defense, some people said, yeah, that makes sense. Once the troops are on American streets there to enforce the taxes, American colonists say, you're not here to protect us, you're here to take our liberties away. And there's a lot of tension in Boston between civilians in Boston, the Sons of Liberty in Boston, and these British troops who are quartered amongst them. As you mentioned, there are a series of incidents that take place, the most prominent of which occurs on March 5, 1779, 1970 incident known as the Boston Massacre. Eight civilians are shot, five of whom die. There was a crowd of up to 300 people who were harassing British soldiers. And they were throwing snowballs, ice balls, bricks and so on at the soldiers.

[Patton Oswalt]

Bricks and weirdly enough, batteries. They were winging batteries at them, which is the history is yet to explain how they had D cell batteries to throw, but they had them, by the way, I also heard they were throwing oyster shells.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. A very Bostonian thing to do.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Waste the shells.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. Wing some shells over this guy's ear.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And so this incident really escalates things. It should be said, though, Greg, and I'm sure you probably know this, the British army shoots civilians in Britain all the time in the 18th century. This isn't even a terribly big matter.

[Greg Jenner]

Standard behavior for the British army because.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

There is no police, so they're used for crowd control in 18th century Britain. So this is a terrible incident, but it's not actually that unusual.

[Greg Jenner]

And the Sons of Liberty, they grab one of the commissioners and they kind of tar and feather him, which sort of sounds cutesy until you realise what it is. It's horrific.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, it is horrific. Right?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It is torture. I mean, you usually get beaten up and stripped before you're tarred and feathered. They pour hot tar on you and then cover you with feathers.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So it's horrific, Burns.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It is horrific. If you've ever seen the John Adams miniseries, there's a very good scene, it's a harrowing scene about somebody being tarred and feathered.

[Patton Oswalt]

And not just that if you somehow survived it, which a lot of people don't even survive the initial tarring because of the pain. Taking the tar off it is brutal.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That's right.

[Greg Jenner]

Skin's coming off, right? Yeah, Horrible stuff. They're also waterboarding as well with pouring tea down his nose and stuff. I mean, it's really, really horrible stuff. We get the Boston Tea Party after that, which again, sounds like a sort of genteel Jane Austen thing. The Boston Tea Party, but it's a paramilitary organization. This Son to Liberty.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They are certainly a political movement that is willing to use force or threaten to use force. And those threats are credible because they've done it enough.

[Patton Oswalt]

In the Boston Massacre, you have them, you know, they're not that, not that I'm justifying them being shot, but they're, they're throwing stuff, they're attacking people. They're tarring and feathering people. The Boston Tea Party, was it, was it just as aggressive or was it more a clandestine operation to throw the tea in the heart? Like, what was, what was the, what was the feeling of that one?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That's a good question. It's more, it's much more controlled. So the background of this is Parliament adopts something called the Tea act, which is meant to help the British East India Tea Company, which has huge interest in Parliament, little corruption there. And this calls attention to people, to taxation. Again and again. This tea is sent to Boston, among other port cities. It also goes to New York, Philadelphia and Charleston. But in Boston, they resort to this protest. It's not like the massacre and it's not unrestrained violence. Instead, it's much more controlled. So a group of about 60 sons of Liberty, rather crudely disguised as indigenous Americans, they board the tea ships. There are three of them in Baltimore. They destroy 342 chests of tea, but they clean up after themselves. Wait, they do they do they also. They make sure that nobody's meant to pilfer anything else off these cargo ships or off the wharf. So it's meant to be a controlled demonstration to show that there are limits to resistance. Equally, right after the Boston Massacre, the British soldiers who shot into the crowd were tried in Boston and most of them were acquitted. That was carried out to show that the rule of law actually still persisted.

[Patton Oswalt]

And who defended them?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

John Adams. John Adams.

[Greg Jenner]

There you go.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So the point was, with the Tea Party, there's a degree of restraint and control about this. The tax tea is the target now. 342 chests of tea. It's worth tens of thousands of pounds, millions of money, probably millions today. So it's a pretty Significant attack on private property.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And they're dumping it. They're not taking it home and stealing it. They're dumping it in the water.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They are dumping it in the water. Although I was doing research many, many years ago, and there was a guy who was accused of filling his pockets with tea.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, so there were some. They weren't doing the whole joker thing of burning my half of the money. There were some people that were taking it home.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

You know, loose leaf tea is very fashionable.

[Greg Jenner]

Wear it as a hat.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. My goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so what does the king's government do? What does George iii, you know, you've got the tea protest. Is he sitting and stewing? Is he letting rebellion brew? Is he stirring the pot until things T pun, T pun, T pun. What is he doing?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Two things. The first thing before I answer your question is to say this is a. You mentioned you like hinge points in history, Patton. This is a hinge point. This is the moment America became a coffee drinking country and not a tea drinking country.

[Patton Oswalt]

Really?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, this is my thesis.

[Patton Oswalt]

Okay, let's hear it. I want to know the origin of my addiction.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

As you say, tea is horrible in America.

[Greg Jenner]

Hey, come on now.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The tea in America is terrible. I am an American. I go to America all the time. I bring my own tea bags with me. If you order tea.

[Patton Oswalt]

No, when I'm in America, drink PG Tips.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But if you order it, you either get tepid water in a bag next to it or you get something the temperature of the core of the sun.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes. They don't know what they're doing.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They don't know what they're doing. And I think it goes back to the Tea Party. I think the turn to coffee happened then. This is the ancient history. In answer to your actual question.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. We have an episode on the history of coffee if listeners want to learn more.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Back to my question. Frank, come on.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Parliament penalizes the colonies. The king and his government want to take a hard line. They adopt a series of acts called the Coercive act to punish Boston.

[Greg Jenner]

The Coercive act or Intolerable Act. Right. And is that the official name of them?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

No, no, no. Each of the acts has its own. Has its own name, so we've labeled them. So they call them the Coercive Acts or the Intolerable Acts.

[Patton Oswalt]

Good branding.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. The governor of Massachusetts is replaced with a military governor. The port of Boston's closed until the T is paid for, and so on. There are a series of acts intended to punish Boston and also to separate Massachusetts from the other colonies. Okay.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, like to make the other colonies go. Like, we don't want anything to do with them. Like that. Oh, okay. Divide and conquer.

[Greg Jenner]

Divide and conquer. That the British way. That then leads to the outraged colonists forming the first Continental Congress, headed up by the first president in American history, a great man from Virginia such as yourself. And his name is.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hang on. George Hanson. No, not George Washington. No, no, I know that. George Washington.

[Greg Jenner]

Who?

[Patton Oswalt]

What's his name?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Frank Peyton Randolph.

[Patton Oswalt]

Peyton Randolph.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

What?

[Patton Oswalt]

Who? Wow. Wait a minute. Go right ahead, please. I literally never heard this name. I've heard the name George Hansen. I've never heard Peyton Randolph.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

I don't have a lot to give you Patton, except he's a very prominent political figure in Virginia in the mid-1770s. He's a lawyer, he's a planter. He's a big deal in Virginia, and he gets elected to preside over this first Continental Congress.

[Patton Oswalt]

So technically, he's the first president.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. And what is the Congress?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

We have a problem of nomenclature here, because we say Congress and we think Congress.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And it's more to coming together of representatives from 12 of the 13 colonies. Georgia didn't make it to kind of decide on collective action in response to these.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Parliament's tried to separate Massachusetts from the others, and they're saying, no, we're all going to stand together.

[Greg Jenner]

What's their policy then? What do they agree?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They agree on a number of things. They agree that the individual colonies should start raising militias to prepare for a possible.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, okay, so that's a serious one. That.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That's very serious. But they're not providing any money for that. They're just saying, you should do this. They say that the colonies stand back and stand by. Yes, exactly. The colonies should boycott British goods. So they're responding to the British closure of the port of Boston by saying, we're not buying any British goods. They say British and Irish goods is a little bit of.

[Greg Jenner]

A little bit unfair.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They want to stop paying British taxes and of course, not obey the coercive acts. And they adopt a declaration of rights in October of 1774, which says that they. That is the colonies are entitled to life, liberty and property, and that they have never ceded to any foreign power whatever a right to dispose of either without their consent. So this is about no taxation without representation.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Life, liberty and property, which comes from John Locke. We're not quite to life, liberty and happiness yet. We'll get there.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Property's more important than happiness. Come on.

[Patton Oswalt]

I'M not happy without my property.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But yeah, so that's what the first call is.

[Greg Jenner]

There's a line there. You said, though, cede to foreign power, Patton. That, to me, starts to sound like they're looking at Britain as a foreign power rather than.

[Patton Oswalt]

Well, maybe they're looking at Britain as a foreign power, but maybe like you said earlier, the way that Boston was renaming some of these, the coercive acts as the horrible. Like, well, if we can start to image manage this and make them seem like a foreign power, then we can get ourselves to. If we can start thinking of them as they, we will be a we and a united we. Maybe that was a part of the strategy.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah, you should lead a movement, Patton. That's great.

[Patton Oswalt]

Really should.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so the Declaration calls Britain a foreign power, which, you know, is an interesting turn. But the raising of militia, or at least the idea of raising militia, feels like a more serious one. Are these newfangled Americans yet?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Oh, that's the question, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

You have 14 seconds to answer.

[Patton Oswalt]

Go.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They can't decide. They're looking both ways. Okay. In 1774, Thomas Jefferson writes something called the Summary View of the Rights of British America. In that he says, we are just British people who happen to live here. We are the same. We have the rights of Englishmen. We have all those rights. Two years later, in 1776, the Declaration of Independence will say, nope. Authored by Jefferson. We are Americans. Our rights are natural rights. They come from God and nature's God.

[Patton Oswalt]

When did you get the split between colonists and loyalists? When did that split happen?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's kind of two parts. When the war breaks out in the spring of 75, it starts. Cause people have to start making choices. But really with the Declaration of Independence, because it's either you support independence, you don't.

[Patton Oswalt]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And that's when. So. But in this moment.

[Greg Jenner]

So when there's a referendum, really.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah, exactly, Greg. In this moment, they're still kind of British, kind of American, and trying to work out what the boundary between the two is.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Americans are starting to stockpile weapons. They're starting to sort of drill troops sort of quietly in the corner. But the British authority is obviously not terribly keen on this. And so Parliament declares Massachusetts in rebellion. So particularly one state in rebellion.

[Patton Oswalt]

And that Tea Party thing really stung.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, it's a lot of money.

[Patton Oswalt]

They lost, really dwelt on that.

[Greg Jenner]

I've seen Mary Poppins, the Bank of England. Very upsetting. So Thomas Gage is someone we need to introduce here. Frank, very quickly, who's Thomas Gage. Why do you.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He is the commander in chief of British forces in North America. He's also been appointed as the military governor of Massachusetts under the Coercive Acts. He's got an American wife, interestingly.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He is believed to understand Americans.

[Patton Oswalt]

Taking our women.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And Gage is in charge. And he's ordered by the government in early 1775 to do something about Massachusetts. And so he wants the. He's ordered in February to kind of crack down. Massachusetts is declared in rebellion. He's ordered to crack down on the leadership of the resistance there. In April, he sends troops to Lexington and Concord to both seize munitions that the Patriot Militia, so called Patriot Militia, are stockpiling and arrest the leaders of the resistance in the colony.

[Greg Jenner]

And this is where Paul Revere supposedly says, the British are coming. But he doesn't say that, right?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

No. Cause they're all British.

[Greg Jenner]

They're all British. We're British.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone's British.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He says the Regulars are out.

[Greg Jenner]

That's not as good.

[Patton Oswalt]

Doesn't work.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so tell us about Lexington and Concord. Cause this is famously where the war begins. But it's a tiny skirmish.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. I mean, we've just marked the 250th anniversary of this first fighting in the war. April 19, 1775. And what happens is the British. Lexington and Concord are now suburbs of Boston. They're about 15, 20 miles west of Boston. They arrive in Lexington first. They're confronted by some militiamen on Lexington Green, and there's a brief exchange of shots. Nobody knows who fired the first shot. Eight militiamen were killed. The rest ran off. Then the British go on to Concord. There's a fight at Concord Bridge. It only lasts about three minutes. There's a larger fight over the course of the rest of the day. But the fighting at Lexington and Concord is relatively brief.

[Patton Oswalt]

Nothing good comes out of the suburbs. I've always said everything bad comes out of the suburbs. So there you go.

[Greg Jenner]

So the shot heard around the world is the famous line given to this shot that we don't know who shot first. Right. We don't know which side shot first. But it's a small skirmish times two. And we then get the Second Continental Congress because the first one achieved some things. But now the shots have been fired. So what is the second?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's starting to act like a government. Now. The first one wasn't really a government. It was sort of, hey, let's get together and coordinate our response.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The Second Continental Congress is acting like a government because there's a War on. But again, still looking forwards and backwards at the same time. Because what they really are saying, they're saying, king George, please intervene and stop this. They sent something called the Olive Branch petition.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So 17,000 patriot militiamen are besieging the British in Boston. The Continental Congress is raising an army. But they're also saying, hey, we wanna make up. Let's just. Let's just go back to the way things were. So they're in this weird. Between April of 1775 and of 1776, there's a kind of really weird moment where they're waging war, but also appealing to the king to intervene and stop it.

[Greg Jenner]

And Peyton Randolph, he's had to resign. He's no longer president.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He's gone.

[Greg Jenner]

When do we get George Washington showing up then? When's his.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He goes to the Second Continental Congress representing Virginia, and he wears his uniform to say, hey, I happen to be a soldier. And they appoint him commander in chief of the army. He doesn't become president, of course, until seven years.

[Greg Jenner]

So he'd fought for Britain in the Seven Years War.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He did fight for the British war.

[Greg Jenner]

He's an experienced British soldier who'd fought for the king against the French.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He didn't fight for the British in the sense that he fought for Virginia. And he desperately craved a British commission and they didn't give it to him.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, and that was a idea.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So if George Washington got his commission.

[Greg Jenner]

And it's a hinge moment, Patton, if.

[Patton Oswalt]

They had just given him his commission, this might not have happened to them.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And his favorite hot beverage was hot chocolate.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, well, that's adorable. That's even more insulting. You get defeated by a guy you didn't give a commission to, and he basically. His favorite beverage is like your aunt, basically. Nice little hot beverage, and he wipes out your army.

[Greg Jenner]

I also love hot chocolate, so I'm Team George Washington for now.

[Patton Oswalt]

There you go.

[Greg Jenner]

On 6 July, Congress issued the Declaration of Causes and Necessity for Taking Up Arms, which is a really serious declaration. And this episode, 1775.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

6 July, 1775. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue and beauty.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

One of the 20th century's most amazing characters. A Hollywood sex symbol whose story you.

[Greg Jenner]

Might think you already know.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hedy Lamarr, the film star.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

But there's another side to her story.

[Greg Jenner]

She was an inventor at heart.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Her scientific contribution no other star has.

[Patton Oswalt]

Been able to match.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

We really should put her into the limelight she deserves from the BBC World Service. Untold Legends. Hedy Lamar. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny. You'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Join me, me, Alex Von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Olive Branch petition has been offered by the Second Continental Congress to George iii. And George III says.

[Patton Oswalt]

He says, absolutely not.

[Greg Jenner]

He doesn't even read it. What doesn't he even read it?

[Patton Oswalt]

Do you think he did that, like, as a power move, as an insult, or. Why didn't he read it?

[Greg Jenner]

Professor Frank, give us a psychological reading.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, to accept it is to recognize the authority of Congress, which he doesn't.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Now, I find it hard to believe he didn't actually read it, because how can you reject it if you don't know what's in it?

[Greg Jenner]

Someone would have read it for me. Somebody read it. Some lawyer would have read it. And gone, sire, the Americans are here.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But he refused to acknowledge it or to acknowledge the authority of Congress. So he didn't accept it.

[Greg Jenner]

And he declares the Proclamation Rebellion.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He declares them in rebellion in October of 1775.

[Greg Jenner]

And we get a property battle.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes, we get. They actually get the proper battle. Before that, in June of 75, is the battle of Bunker Hill, when the British try to break the siege of Boston.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They win the battle, but take so many casualties over almost over a thousand casualties total. More than 200 dead. It's one of the bloodiest days of the war for them that one of their officers says, well, if we win, keep winning battles like this, America is lost.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow. Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a big win. Day one.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. Dark. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Patton Oswalt]

Was there a naval element to this? Was there any ship battles during that, or was it all on the ground?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Not quite yet. I mean, the British used their naval advantage. Bunker Hill is in Charlestown, Massachusetts, which is, again, kind of inner suburb of Boston. Now, people in Charlestown will be really offended by that. And the British are able to maneuver around Boston harbor to get around. Charlestown is a peninsula like Boston was at that time. So they're using their naval advantage, but there aren't big naval battles yet because the Americans don't have the capacity.

[Greg Jenner]

They haven't got a navy, right?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

No, not yet.

[Greg Jenner]

They haven't got. So at moments like this, Patton, we need a bit of common sense. Oh. By which I mean common sense. Do you know it.

[Patton Oswalt]

Was that Thomas Paine's pamphlet?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, it is. Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

Very good.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yay.

[Patton Oswalt]

I know something.

[Greg Jenner]

Well done.

[Patton Oswalt]

All right. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you know about it?

[Patton Oswalt]

Nothing.

[Greg Jenner]

Great. Thank you for coming in.

[Patton Oswalt]

Go right ahead. Please take it off my hands.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Thomas Paine is an English radical who emigrated to Philadelphia in 1774. So he's arrived relatively late. He has no time for the monarchy. This is a good reminder that this is really a transatlantic radical movement. The colonists have a lot of sympathy in Britain, and that's gonna be a crucial factor. And Payne kind of represents that. He writes this pamphlet called Common Sense, which is published on January 10, 1776, that basically says independence is the answer here. Give up your loyalty to the crown. The king's not gonna be there for you. A parent doesn't wage war on its children.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He can turn a phrase. The guy can write. It sells 150,000 copies. It's by far and away the biggest bestseller of the 18th century. Probably.

[Patton Oswalt]

I've only seen the movie version.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And he makes an incredibly powerful case for independence. And one of the things he says is, he says, don't worry about the future. It's going to be because skeptics say, look, we can't win the war. And even if we do, what'll happen to us? It's a big, bad world out there. He says, memorably, in common sense, America will thrive as long as eating is the custom in Europe. We'll be able to export food. We'll be able. You know, we'll be fine. And coming from somebody English.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

This is a reassuring and incredibly powerful message.

[Greg Jenner]

And so the Continental Congress appoints a committee to draft a declaration of independence. And do you know who's on that committee?

[Patton Oswalt]

Jefferson.

[Greg Jenner]

Yep.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hancock. Clymer. Each colony is represented. Is there 13 people on it or more? There's more.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

No, no, no.

[Patton Oswalt]

What?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Unless I'm wrong, there are five.

[Patton Oswalt]

Five?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

Who are the five?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Okay. Jefferson.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Roger Sherman, Robert Livingston.

[Greg Jenner]

Never heard of him.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Sherman's from Connecticut. Livingston's from New York. They're the two that always get forgotten.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Like these poor guys, they've done so much. They wrote one of the most important documents in history, and everyone's like, who?

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And like all committees, they give the work to the junior guy, which is Jefferson, and he. He writes them.

[Greg Jenner]

No Way.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He's the most.

[Patton Oswalt]

Although I heard. Maybe I'm wrong about this. I heard that one of the reasons that they didn't let Benjamin Franklin write it, they were afraid he would sneak a joke into it.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, because he's really funny, right?

[Patton Oswalt]

He is, really. But they were afraid he would. He was kind of a prankster and.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, he's a satirest and everything.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, he was an edgelord back then. And they were like, oh, he's gonna. He'll sneak a joke. He'll. He'll hide the word fart in here somewhere.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He's the founding father of comedians. Yeah, he's your patron saint.

[Greg Jenner]

It's drafted. Jefferson present on 20th of June.

[Patton Oswalt]

It's voted for on July 4th, 1776.

[Greg Jenner]

July 2nd.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, my God. American education, folks.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, I understand why you've said that, but John Adams famously says, On July 2, I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows and games and sports and guns and bonfire and illuminations from one end of the continent to the other from this time forward, forevermore. He's basically saying, July 2nd will forever be.

[Patton Oswalt]

Boy, could he call it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Why do we think it's July 4th?

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, why do we.

[Greg Jenner]

And was it July 4th?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, what happens on July 4th is they. So they vote on independence on July 2nd. 12 colonies vote in favor of it. New York abstains. Then they spend the next two days editing mainly Jefferson's draft, taking out the jokes. Taking out the jokes. Taking out the jokes. And cutting 25% of the test, including a clause on the slave trade, which is really interesting. And then they formally adopt the document, the Declaration itself, on the 4th of July. So that is the date, but the vote was on the second. Adams recognized that the vote was incredibly important, thought this is the day.

[Greg Jenner]

And New York comes along on the 2nd of August and goes, all right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah, guess if you're all going, fine, whatever.

[Patton Oswalt]

Great.

[Greg Jenner]

We're in. The colonies are abuzz with people exalting the cause of liberty. They've drafted a document. They've signed it. America is an independent, independent kingdom. Or not. Kingdom.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

No, no, no.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a republic.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's a republic.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. But. But I have to ask, like, what about indigenous peoples? You know, what we might call Native Americans? What about free and enslaved black people? Are their liberties mentioned at all? Is anyone thinking about them?

[Patton Oswalt]

And are women mentioned?

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Excellent questions. The Declaration, of course, says, all men are created Equal. So there's gendered language there. There's no doubt about that. Those three groups, of course, constitute the majority of the population by a considerable margin. There are two things you need to bear in mind. In 1776, the vast majority of people who lived in North America were indigenous.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Must never forget that. And in those seaboard colonies that are rebelling and declaring independence, 20% of the population was enslaved. So on one hand we can say this is liberty for me and not for thee.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And that would seem to be a pretty accurate statement. On the other, you asked if there was on anybody's mind, in Jefferson's draft of the Declaration, there's a long clause. It's that section where he's indicting George iii. He did this, he did that, he did this. The longest passage in that section is condemning George III for the slave trade. Now as history. It's terrible because George III wasn't responsible for creating the transatlantic slave trade. But what's interesting about that passage is Jefferson talks about the rights and liberties of a distant people. He's talking about the people who've been victimized and enslaved in the transatlantic slave trade having rights. And the same rights and liberties British Americans are fighting for right now. That's cut out by Congress. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The question of what will happen to both indigenous people and enslaved people. The war calls us into question all the time because both sides seek to enlist the support black and indigenous soldiers, for example. And we have the kind of horrible paradox that enslaved people are fighting each other for their liberty because both sides promise them liberty if they'll support them.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So it's a complicated question.

[Greg Jenner]

And for women, do any of the states allow women to vote?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

You know, New Jersey really doesn't get a lot of credit. New Jersey is.

[Patton Oswalt]

Let em vote. Fine. You know, what are you gonna do? Let em go.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

In the aftermath of the revolution, New Jersey adopts a constitution that allows women who can meet the property requirements to vote in the state to vote. New Jersey women are the first women in America to vote. Now the vote's taken away from them in the early 19th century, but there's a period of about two decades where women vote in New Jersey.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Let's get back to the war. Cause I suppose we need to talk about George Washington a little bit. I mean, not loads. I mean you'll know the story of the crossing the Delaware. Cause it's probably something you learned at school, right, as kids.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, that was. And correct me if wrong, that was a. It was a Christmas Eve crossing.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yep.

[Greg Jenner]

Christmas Day.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Christmas Day.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes. Cause they're like. Well, they'll. They're gonna take the day off. So we can just go over there. And that's where it is.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

We'll get them on Boxing Day.

[Patton Oswalt]

We'll get them on.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

But they were like. Cause they were. Weren't there rules to war? Like, there are certain days in. What is it? The life and death of Colonel Blimp. Like, war starts at midnight. Weird old traditions. And he's like, we're just gonna flout those. Cause we're the rebels.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. They don't normally fight during the wintertime. For example, armies in the 18th century.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And crossing rivers in the ice must be pretty. Yeah. Tough as, well. The snow.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But they're desperate because the war has not gone well for them to that point. The British have chased them out of New York across New Jersey. And in late 1776, things are looking bad for the Continental Army.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And also they're fighting German troops. I'd like to point out this is basically the plot of Die Hard. A proud American man who's not meant to be there shows up on Christmas Day to fight some Germans.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, my gosh. That is. Wow. That's amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

George Washington is John McClane.

[Patton Oswalt]

Did not think about that.

[Greg Jenner]

In a vest with a machine gun. Ho ho, ho.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yippee ki yay, red coat. Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

We get another big win. Almost a year later. Battle of Saratoga, which is a huge one for Washington's army. And this is a big win over John Burgoyne. The British general.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That's right. Burgoyne invades the colonies from Montreal. He's going south from Montreal down the Hudson River Valley through modern Vermont. Really is.

[Greg Jenner]

Britain owns Canada, Right?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. To New York. He wants to cut off New England, cut off the head of the rebellion, and that'll be that. He's defeated by the Continental army, not by Washington. Interesting. There's another general in command. Horatio Gates. Washington.

[Greg Jenner]

Horatio Gates. Nickname.

[Patton Oswalt]

Nice name. Very good name.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And Benedict Arnold is prominent fighting for the Patriots. But the point is, Burgoyne.

[Patton Oswalt]

What happened to him?

[Greg Jenner]

He's beloved.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Never heard from again. The reason Saratoga's important is it's the first really big victory that the colonists, the rebels, inflict on the British in almost a year. And it shows the French that the rebels are credible.

[Greg Jenner]

There we go. And I think we have to now bring in the Marquis de Lafayette.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes. Lafayette.

[Greg Jenner]

We've all seen Hamilton, but I was surprised to learn he's a teenager. He's, like, super young.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He's very young.

[Greg Jenner]

18.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah, 18. This revolution attracts a lot of European flotsam and jetsam who just turn up. Some of them are frauds and grifters, but others are idealists.

[Greg Jenner]

Frauds and grifters in American politics.

[Patton Oswalt]

What?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Shocking. Shocking. And so there are all kinds of Europeans who attach themselves to both sides, but particularly to the rebel side, because you can get an officer's commission. Lafayette's, you know, one of the youngest generals in the war. By the time when he's about 22.

[Greg Jenner]

Or 3, he's barely left puberty.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Go into attacks. These ships over there. I'm just gonna shave for my. And he brings with him French money.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He pays for a ship full of supplies. However, because of the victory at Saratoga, Benjamin Franklin, who's then American ambassador in Paris, negotiates a formal treaty with France. And In February of 1778, France recognizes the United States, enters into a military alliance, and suddenly, Britain's in a lot of trouble.

[Greg Jenner]

And ironically, the massive debt incurred by supporting America against Britain will lead to the French Revolution.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, wow. So a monarch Lafayette also takes part in.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, good for him, man.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Hinge moment, hinge moment.

[Patton Oswalt]

Another hinge moment. Here we go.

[Greg Jenner]

So a monarchist supporting a republican movement leads to a republican movement in the country that supported it. There we go. Classic. There's also a German general who trains American troops as well. Steuben.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah, von Steuben.

[Greg Jenner]

Von Steuben. Good name.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And again, not an aristocrat, but calls himself Von. Cause he's one of these people who's just a bit of a. Good.

[Greg Jenner]

For him.

[Patton Oswalt]

Didn't he have kind of a sketchy background? Like, he had been kicked. I don't know what the. But he had been kicked out of whatever he was for.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He was in the Prussian army previously. I think it was Prussia, but aap. A lot of. There's no Internet then, so you can. You can go to America and recreate, start over.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. It's like going to college on the first day. You're like, actually, I'm super cool, guys.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And he plays a crucial role, helping to train the Continental army according to European standards. He's actually quite important, although a bit of a. He's not a fraud. He's. He just. He enhanced his CV a little bit.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. He's like Don Draper in Mad Men. Right. He's talented, but he's lying.

[Patton Oswalt]

Look, he's helping. Who cares?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also huge ego clashes in the Continental Army. There are big battles about whether to support Washington.

[Patton Oswalt]

What do you mean, like, other people wanted to be the main guy? They wanted to be the outside.

[Greg Jenner]

And they don't think he's good enough. They think he's struggling. They think he's not the guy to be leading the army.

[Patton Oswalt]

So he had to fight on that front as well. He's fighting the British, and he's also fighting people that are trying to basically take his spot.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. There's a dual fought between a guy called John Cadwalader, I think, and a guy called Conway. They're literally fighting a duel over whether George Washington's good enough to vote.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. Cause Conway was briefing against George Washington and kind of created something called the Conway Cabal. And after Horatio Gates wins at Saratoga, there are people saying maybe he should be in charge of the whole thing instead of Washington.

[Greg Jenner]

And the quote, john Adams writes to his wife saying, the military officers in the Continental army are quarreling like cats and dogs. They are scrambling for rank and pay like apes for nuts.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, what a bitch. How bitchy. Oh, my goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

So this idea of the kind of great American army proudly fighting the. They're kind of squabbling amongst themselves.

[Patton Oswalt]

One of the things that makes you a great general is that you have a massive ego. Like, the way that you will succeed is to think that I am chosen by God.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

You know, and someone like Bradley, who also a brilliant general, but is like, listen, guys, we don't need you with your pearl handled pistol in your frigging umbrella. Let's just get. Let's just save the world from evil. Can you just calm down?

[Greg Jenner]

Let's just wear the right kind of shoes. It's a Steuben thing. Just stand there and march in the right way. The big military win that shocks everyone is Yorktown, 1781. The Americans defeat a big British army, and this is the end of the war. Which no one's seen that come in.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Right. Yes. The French and the Americans defeat a big British army. Sorry, that's really, really important. So what happened is, after Saratoga and the French alliance, the British concentrate on the southern colonies because they're the more lucrative. And they've kind of written off the north. And they send an army under General Cornwallis to the south. That army fights around the South. It ends up going to Yorktown, Virginia, seeking resupply. It's blockaded there. In the fall of 1781, a combined Franco American army marches south from New York. And there's some fighting. There's a siege that goes on. Cornwallis ultimately surrenders. It's made possible, though Patton. You asked about naval battles. There was a naval battle during the siege, the Battle of the Capes, and the French defeated the Royal Navy, which meant that Cornwallis was not going to get resupplied, which leads to his surrender.

[Greg Jenner]

I was going to ask how come that's the end of the war? Because he simply can't get supplies in now.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It need not be the end of the war, though, because Britain fought France for 25 years.

[Greg Jenner]

I was going to say Britain, superpower. Britain fight the rebels.

[Patton Oswalt]

The media.

[Greg Jenner]

In the words of Captain America, I can do this all day.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The government collapsed because the war wasn't popular in Britain. We're back to the fact that there's considerable sympathy for the Americans in Britain. There's a lack of political will, not a lack.

[Greg Jenner]

The Lord north is back home in Britain. Everyone's got government. This guy. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right. So the war ends and there are peace treaty. Do you know where the peace treaty's held?

[Patton Oswalt]

I don't.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you want to guess?

[Patton Oswalt]

Philadelphia.

[Greg Jenner]

No, it's Paris.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

Sort of neutral territory, but not really.

[Patton Oswalt]

Because they've been a war.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. So they've all got to go to Paris. And it's a sort of big old. Kind of like, we'll have this, you have that. But the thing that's quite interesting is that they're discussing kind of boring stuff like fishing treaties.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's not boring if you live in New England.

[Greg Jenner]

All right, Sorry, take it back.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And John Adams is a New Englander. So North Sea fisheries, an incredibly important industry, but, yes, they are. They're arguing about fisheries.

[Patton Oswalt]

How much cod can I catch? I gotta know.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But they do talk about fishing. Crucially, the Americans and British make a side deal. According to the alliance of 1778, the French say to the Americans, under the terms of that treaty, no separate peace with the British. We're in this together. The Americans make a separate peace, they betray the French.

[Patton Oswalt]

But hang on, I heard Special Relationship again. I watched this long series about the War of 1812, and wasn't part of the British thinking that, fine, we'll let them have this one. They won't be able to sustain this, and we'll just slowly chip away at him and we'll get them back.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So the British give incredibly generous borders to the new United States. All the territories south of the Great Lakes and west to the Mississippi River.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. Okay, so that's a huge tranche of land.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Wow. Basically a third of the present continental United States states, with the exception of Florida, which goes to the Spanish. And the reason the British do that is they think this is going to fail. They're going to fail. We're going to get back, we're going to get all this back. It's going to fall into our laps. Now if we'd said this a couple years ago, we'd say, well, haha, they got fooled. Maybe they're playing a long game, the British, and then we are going to be back. Who knows, Maybe it is going to fail.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. Actually, wait a minute. Are we seeing. This is a very long game, the.

[Greg Jenner]

Longest of long cards.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, okay. Wow. Okay. Well listeners, if you want to know more about what happened after the Treaty of Paris and America getting on its feet and creating a constitution, inventing the idea of a president, we've got an episode on that called Becoming America. It's all the way back. It was a very fun one. Way back in the timeline, scroll down in the app.

[Patton Oswalt]

Who was the comedian on that one?

[Greg Jenner]

Chris Addison. From.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, he's great. Oh, from, From Thick of It.

[Greg Jenner]

Thick of it, exactly. Yeah, he's. Yeah, wonderful. The nuance window. But it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Patton and I sit silently to ponder our fishing related treaty clauses while Professor Frank takes to the Congressional floor for two minutes to tell us something important about the American War of Independence, slash revolution, whatever you call it. My stopwatch is ready, Frank. Take it away.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The nuance I would like to develop in the nuance window is this is British history as well as American history. And we make a mistake in seeing this as American history only. It's why we don't know there are 26 colonies. Patton and I think that we need to interpret this as British history as well as American history, these events, because it takes two sides. But also I think we should rethink our understanding of Britain in this period. So what I mean by this is to some extent, the American Revolution is a failure of the British Constitution. The British Constitution can't accommodate Britons who live overseas. The Americans, that's what their message is from 1765 down to 1775. We're just like you and we have the same rights you do. And Parliament can't accept that. And Parliament doesn't recognize that. And the British constitution, as flexible as it is historically, can accommodate that. And so to some extent this is all a result of what might be seen as a British constitutional crisis. That in turn leads Americans to create their own constitution. And they want a written constitution because they say the problem with Britain is the Constitution isn't written. So America goes off on its own way. But then Britain historically was often presented as a sort of failure for Britain, and it is, except the British Empire continues to grow and thrive for another century. However, they learn their lesson. They don't give rights to settlers anymore and colonists. They don't say, you're on a par with us. They don't allow them to have their assemblies, nor do they ever tax another colony again. So Britain does learn and adapt, and its empire is not the same as a result of these events. So these are incredibly important events for the United States. We need to see these events as British events as well, and see them in the context of British constitutional and imperial history.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Two minutes exactly. Thank you.

[Patton Oswalt]

Whoa. Professor. Yeah. That was a quill drop. Drop dunk. That makes absolute sense that it was. Not only is it British history, it was a crucial hinge moment in how Britain went forward.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

And how they modernized themselves.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting also, in many ways, it wasn't an intellectual revolution. It wasn't a French revolutionary movement in terms of ideas and philosophy. It was a logistics problem. We can't fit these people in. They just can't fit in the tents.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. And also, future colonists, sorry for queering the pitch for you in terms of getting territory and stuff. I didn't mean to mess that up. But, you know, it is what it is.

[Greg Jenner]

America ruined the world.

[Patton Oswalt]

We really did. And we continue to do so.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Ruining the world since 1776.

[Patton Oswalt]

That's right, folks.

[Greg Jenner]

Pop it on a T shirt. That's what you can wear for your anniversary. Yes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Ruining the world since 1776.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know now? So it's time now for the so what do you know now, this is our quickfire quiz for Patton to see how much he has learned. Okay, Patton, I suspect you're a confident quizzer. I feel that you're a man brimming with knowledge and trivia.

[Patton Oswalt]

I'm an optimistic quizzer. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I'm optimistic.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, well, we've got 10 questions for you.

[Patton Oswalt]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Everything we've discussed, so let's see how we go. So question one. How many?

[Patton Oswalt]

There were 26 colonies.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly right. Well done. All right. Amazing.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, there's more.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's see if you can do it again. Question 2. Which group were responsible for the Boston Tea Party?

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, the Sons of Liberty.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, that's right.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Question three. Name the British acts of Parliament that punished Massachusetts after the Tea Party.

[Patton Oswalt]

Those were the coercive Acts. Or also, as the Boston called them, the not horrible acts. They gave it like the atrocious acts or the intolerable. The intolerable acts, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. I'll give you that. Coercive is absolutely spotted. Question 4. Who was the proud first president of the First Continental Congress? A great Virginian. Man.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes, A great Virginian. Peyton Randolph.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Well done. Sounds to me like an American football player, but yes. Question 5. What was King George III's reaction to the Olive branch petition?

[Patton Oswalt]

He claims he did not read it, but I side with the professor, thinking I think he did read it, and then said he didn't.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, he left it on.

[Patton Oswalt]

Red power move. He left it on read. That's what he did. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 6. What was the name of Thomas Paine's popular 1776 pamphlet calling for independence in America?

[Patton Oswalt]

Why? That was called Common Sense.

[Greg Jenner]

It was. Question 7. Can you name two of the five drafters of the Declaration of Independence?

[Patton Oswalt]

I can.

[Greg Jenner]

Can you give me all five? And I will give you a bonus point.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, God. Wow, you're right. Those two get forgotten.

[Greg Jenner]

Wait a minute. Oh, my God.

[Patton Oswalt]

I feel terrible for them.

[Greg Jenner]

It's happening again.

[Patton Oswalt]

Benjamin Franklin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yep.

[Patton Oswalt]

Thomas Jefferson. Right.

[Greg Jenner]

You've got the point.

[Patton Oswalt]

Okay, then I'm gonna stop there.

[Greg Jenner]

Can't remember the other John Adams, Roger Sherman and Robert Livingston.

[Patton Oswalt]

Livingston and Sherman. Those sound like 50 songwriters.

[Greg Jenner]

They do, don't they?

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. Well, we wrote Will youl Still Love Me Tomorrow in a Teen angel. And we also ratified the Constitution.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 8. Who did the Americans sign the Treaty of alliance with in February 1778?

[Patton Oswalt]

That would be France.

[Greg Jenner]

It was France.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

You're doing very well, Patton. Question nine. What was John Adams complaint about the Continental army officers during the war?

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, they were a bunch of messy bitches that were all fighting over George Washington.

[Greg Jenner]

They were. They were quarreling like cats and dogs. This for a perfect 10 out of 10. Which siege in 1781 marked the end of the conflict?

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, the siege at Yorktown.

[Greg Jenner]

He's done it.

[Patton Oswalt]

Did I do it?

[Greg Jenner]

He did it. 10 out of 10. Never in doubt. Nearly 11 out of 11. But you, you know, you bailed on Livingston and.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, my God, I've already forgotten those poor Sherman. Livington and Sherman. They're just like they were born to be forgotten. Wow. They have a. What a weird witchy power they have.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Let's face it, if you're from Connecticut and your name is Roger Sherman, you're kind of forgettable.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, you are kind of forgettable.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, there we go. Well, thank you so much, Patton. Do you feel like you've learned some stuff here?

[Patton Oswalt]

I actually did learn some stuff. There was a lot wanting in my high school and college education.

[Greg Jenner]

I think you did great and thank you. Of course, Professor Frank. That was a real eye opening listener. For more American political history, check out our sequel episode on Becoming America, which we mentioned with Chris Addison. We've also got episodes on the abolitionists, Adjourner Truth, we've got one on Frederick Douglass. For more South American independence movements, we have one on Simon Bolivar, which is very good fun. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history Corner we had the fantastic Professor Frank Cogliano from the University of Edinburgh. Thank you, Frank.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

My pleasure. Thank you. It was a lot of fun.

[Greg Jenner]

And in comedy corner we had the outstanding Patton Oswalt. Thank you, Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

It's so good to learn about my home country of America. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we fight to free another neglected historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and chuck 340 chests of coffee into Boston Harbour. It's not a political protest. I just hate coffee. Bye. You Daddy Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Hello, it's Lucy Worsley here and we're back with a brand new series of ladies swindlers. Here we are in cell number one. I'm just shutting us in, Ross.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Following in the footsteps of some all new criminals.

[Greg Jenner]

Could you take me down to the.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Other end of Baker street, please?

[Patton Oswalt]

Certainly.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Jump him.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Thank you. Join me and my all female team of detectives as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men. This is a story of working class women trying to get by. This is survival Lady Swindlers Season 2 with Lucy Worsley from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

First they told the story of the moon landing.

[Patton Oswalt]

60 seconds. We choose to go to the moon. 30ft down two and a half.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

I thought, wow, what have I gotten myself into? Then came the dramatic rescue of the Apollo 13 mission.

[Patton Oswalt]

Okay. Yes, sir. We've had a problem here.

[Greg Jenner]

I literally got on my knees and prayed.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Now from the BBC World Service, 13 Minutes presents the Space shuttle. The inside story of a dream to revolutionize space flight. We had so much riding on something we'd never done before. Unlike anything that had ever flown in space. This is the space shuttle.

[Patton Oswalt]

Roger roll.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

We're just hooting and hollering and screaming and yelling for the sheer joy of what you were taking in 13 minutes presents the space Shuttle. Coming soon.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

This is history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the first World War.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny. You'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex Von Tunzelman]

Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.