American War of Independence (Radio Edit)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: You're Dead to Me

Episode: American War of Independence (Radio Edit)
Host: Greg Jenner (BBC Radio 4)
Guests: Prof. Frank Cogliano (University of Edinburgh, historian), Patton Oswalt (comedian/actor)
Date: October 31, 2025

---

Overview

This episode commemorates the 250th anniversary of the American War of Independence, exploring how and why the Thirteen Colonies revolted against British rule and became the United States. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Frank Cogliano and comedian Patton Oswalt to dig into “hinge moments” of history, clear up popular misconceptions, and spotlight overlooked figures, all with characteristic humor and clear explanations.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Why Revolution?

• British America was bigger than we think:

  • Prof. Cogliano clarifies that there were 26 British colonies in North America, not just the famous 13 (04:00).
  • The 13 rebelled, but others—especially those in the Caribbean—remained loyal.

• Colonial self-government:

  • Colonies had their own assemblies, fostering a culture of autonomy: "They've kind of developed under their own devices for much of the period..." (05:02, Cogliano).

• Aftermath of the Seven Years War:

  • Britain, now in debt, taxed the colonies ("The average person in Britain pays 26 shillings per year in taxes. The average person in Massachusetts pays one." (06:02, Cogliano).
  • Colonists protested, arguing for the "rights of Englishmen" and claiming lack of representation ("No taxation without representation").

Escalating Tensions

• Stamp Act and Townshend Acts:

  • Stamp Act (1765) imposed direct taxes; resistance led to repeal, but replaced with the Declaratory Act and further taxes (07:27).
  • Parliament insisting on the right to tax led to further discontent and resistance.

• Sons of Liberty and Boston Massacre/Tea Party:

  • The Boston Massacre in 1770: British troops shot eight civilians in Boston (five died) (08:15).
  • Boston Tea Party: Sons of Liberty, disguised as Indigenous Americans, dumped tea into Boston Harbor as protest (09:20). Notably, they cleaned up after themselves—“meant to be a controlled demonstration…” (09:46, Cogliano).

• British crackdown:

  • The Coercive Acts punished Massachusetts, closed Boston’s port, and aimed to divide the colonies (10:23).
  • Appointed military governance for Massachusetts.

Moving Toward Revolution

• The First Continental Congress (1774):

  • Formed after the Coercive Acts; Peyton Randolph (not Washington) was the first president (11:14).
  • Congress encouraged colonies to form militias, boycott British goods, and adopted a Declaration of Rights promoting "life, liberty, and property" (11:47).

• Rising Militancy:

  • Stockpiling arms led to Parliament declaring Massachusetts in rebellion.
  • British troops (under Thomas Gage) sent to capture colonial arms at Lexington & Concord—“the shot heard 'round the world” (13:39–14:45).

• Second Continental Congress (1775):

  • Now acting as a government, appointed George Washington commander-in-chief; sent Olive Branch Petition to George III (15:05–15:49).
  • George III refused to read it, rejecting Congressional legitimacy (16:16).

Choosing Independence

• Thomas Paine’s "Common Sense":

  • Influential pamphlet (January 1776) argued for independence in clear language. Sold 150,000 copies—“by far and away the biggest bestseller of the 18th century” (16:47, Cogliano).

• Drafting the Declaration:

  • Committee of Five (Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Sherman, Livingston); Jefferson wrote most of the text (17:44).
  • Independence vote actually July 2, 1776, but document adopted July 4—hence the famous date (18:10).

Who Was Included? Who Wasn’t?

• Limits of “All men are created equal”:

  • Explicitly male (“gendered language,” says Cogliano), excluded women, enslaved and free Black Americans, and Indigenous people (19:26).
  • Majority in the colonies were Native or Black; both sides promised freedom to Black and Indigenous people who fought for them, creating “horrible paradox” (20:19).

• Women in the Revolution:

  • New Jersey temporarily allowed women meeting property requirements to vote—first in the US—before rescinding it in the 19th century (20:26).

War and its End

• Key battles:

  • Saratoga (1777): Turning point convincing France to ally with rebels (21:12).
  • Yorktown (1781): The Franco-American victory forced British surrender.

• Peace and fallout:

  • Treaty signed in Paris, 1783 (“Paris... Sort of neutral territory, but not really” (23:08)).
  • British grant large land concessions, betting the experiment would fail: “They think this is gonna fail… We're gonna get all this back” (24:18–24:29, Cogliano).
  • Americans make a separate peace with Britain—going against their treaty with the French (23:33).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On history’s contingency:
  • “History is basically a record of the way things didn’t have to be.”
    — Patton Oswalt citing Clive James (02:14)
• On the American/British split:
  • “We share this culture, which they believe they got from Britain... they've achieved a degree of autonomy as a result of this.”
    — Frank Cogliano (05:02)
• On colonial taxation:
  • “The average person in Britain pays 26 shillings per year in taxes. The average person in Massachusetts pays one.”
    — Frank Cogliano (06:02)
• Patton Oswalt’s comic take on American loyalty:
  • “By the way, we're both Americans. Did you bring us here to apologize for revolting or...?” (03:29)
• On John Adams and Independence Day:
  • “On July 2, I am apt to believe it will be celebrated... from this time forward, forevermore.”
    — Greg Jenner quoting John Adams (18:14)
• On inclusion in the revolution:
  • “On one hand, we can say, this is liberty for me and not for thee.”
    — Frank Cogliano (19:45)
• On Britain’s “learning” post-revolution:
  • “They don't ever tax another colony again... its empire is not the same as a result.”
    — Frank Cogliano, Nuance Window (25:10–26:51)

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:40 — Intro: Setting the scene, introducing guests
• 03:29 — Pop culture depictions and misconceptions; “Did you bring us here to apologize?”
• 04:00 — 26 colonies explained, not just 13
• 06:02 — Taxes: British vs. colonial burden
• 08:15 — The Boston Massacre
• 09:20 — Boston Tea Party; the reality behind the event
• 10:23 — British response: Coercive Acts, divide-and-conquer
• 11:14 — Peyton Randolph: the first president of Congress
• 14:45 — Lexington & Concord: Start of armed conflict
• 15:49 — George Washington appointed commander-in-chief
• 16:47 — “Common Sense” published and its impact
• 18:10 — Declaration of Independence: July 2 vs. July 4
• 19:26 — The exclusion of women, Black, and Indigenous people from revolutionary ideals
• 20:26 — New Jersey’s (temporary) women voters
• 21:12 — Saratoga and French alliance
• 22:04 — Yorktown and British defeat
• 23:08 — Treaty of Paris, the surprising postwar British strategy
• 25:10–26:51 — “Nuance Window”: Prof. Cogliano’s two-minute big-picture summary

---

Tone and Style

Lively, witty, and inclusive—true to “You’re Dead to Me.” Greg Jenner keeps things accessible and brisk, Patton Oswalt peppers the history with comedy (“Nothing good comes out of the suburbs”), and Prof. Frank Cogliano provides clear, concise historical explanations with dry humor. The guests continually bring levity while ensuring complex topics are unpacked with care.

---

Conclusion

This episode provides an engaging, humorous, and nuanced exploration of the American Revolution, spotlighting under-discussed facets (like the roles of women, Black Americans, and Native peoples; the “missed” First President; post-revolution British adaptations). It's essential listening for those curious about the realities—rather than the mythology—beneath the founding of the United States.

---

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are chucking our tea in the harbor and charging back to the 18th century for a very special 250th anniversary episode about the American War of Independence, American Revolution, whatever you call it. And to help our cause, we have two fearsome freedom fighters. In History Corner, he's Professor of American History at the University of Edinburgh where his research focuses on revolutionary and early national America. Maybe you've read one of his wonderful books, including A Revolutionary Washington, Jefferson and the American Republic is Professor Frank Cogliano. Welcome, Frank.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Thank you very much, Greg. I'm thrilled to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, he is an Emmy and Grammy Award winning comedian and actor. You'll know him from many of my favorite sitcoms including BoJack, Horseman, A.P. bio, Parks and Recreation, Feep, Brooklyn, Nine Nine, the Goldbergs, the King of Queens. His amazing film career has put him in the Marvel Universe, the Zoolander, Zooniverse, the Ghostbusters Goliverse and the Pixar Tooniverse. He is Remy the Rat himself. From Pixar's Ratatouille is the wonderful Patton Oswalt. Welcome, Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

Thank you, Greg. I'm looking forward to winning some big prizes today.

[Greg Jenner]

You've played a history professor in 22 Jump Street.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, that's right, I did.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, you did.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

I also believe you are named after General Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yes, I was named after George S. Pat. My dad was a Marine. Had high hopes and glad to be here today on this podcast. I'm sure he's very proud.

[Greg Jenner]

If you've played a historian and you are the son of a proud military man, do you know a fair bit about American military history?

[Patton Oswalt]

I like history a lot. I read a lot of history. I really enjoy Thomas Cahill's books. I love hinged history moments. That's something that I'M kind of obsessed with where, oh, something could have completely gone the other way. Clive James is really deep into that kind of world of. I think his quote is like, history is basically a record of the way things didn't have to be. I love that aspect of it.

[Greg Jenner]

All right, so I feel like you probably know a fair bit, but we'll be testing it today to see what's stuck and what else we can teach you. So what do you know?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

This is the.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is where, I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And surely everyone knows that July 4, 1776, was Independence Day in America. Or was it? There's no shortage of pop culture reminders from the truly terrible Mel Gibson film the Patriot to the truly incredible Hamilton musical by Lin Manuel Miranda. Or for slightly subtler references, you've got Nick Cage in National Treasure featuring a treasure map on the back of the Declaration of Independence. Or Will Smith nuking an alien spacecraft on the 4th of July in Independence Day. Like I said, subtle. But why did American colonists rebel against Britain? How did they defeat an imperial superpower? And can we spill the tea on why Bostonians spilled the tea? Let's find out.

[Patton Oswalt]

By the way, we're both Americans. Did you bring us here to apologize or for revolting or. It is a weird. It's a little weird that you brought two Americans in for this.

[Greg Jenner]

All right, Patton, let's test your knowledge. How many British American colonies were there in British America prior to the revolution? 13. That's a good canonical answer. And that is the answer I would have given. But.

[Patton Oswalt]

But.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Okay, the professor's gonna say, well. Well, actually. Well, actually, Patton, there were 26 colonies in British North America. In the car. Oh, if I may, Greg, please. So what happened was the English, and I'm using English deliberately in this context. Apologies to our Scottish listeners. During the 17th century, the English established colonies, the colonies we know of, on the Eastern seaboard of North America.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But under the Stuarts, they also established colonies elsewhere in North America and importantly, in the Caribbean. And by the mid 18th century, when Britain emerges victorious from the Seven Years war, it's got 26 colonies. So there are the 13 that rebel. And just for our listeners, we'll see if I can name them. Right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, go for it.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

New Hampshire.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

[Greg Jenner]

He's done it. Okay, so we've got 26 colonies, 13 of them on the eastern seaboard of the States, how do they work as colonies? What's the government's largely self governing.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They've kind of developed under their own devices for much of the period, the first hundred years after their settlement. And so each of them has its own assembly, for example, which they see as equivalent to Parliament. They've achieved a degree of autonomy as a result of this. And when Britain wins the Seven Years War, what Americans will call the French and Indian War, Britain emerges victorious there they have to govern this big space, but they're pushing up against people who've developed their own ways of thinking and their own ways of doing things. They're pretty used to governing themselves, right? Broadly speaking. They share this culture, which they believe they got from Britain. They talk about the rights of Englishmen all the time, and they're not wrong about that, but they talk about we've got the rights of Englishmen when we're governing ourselves. That's because we're English or we're British.

[Greg Jenner]

And they've won the Seven Years War, which, I mean, you could have been speaking French. Pattern.

[Patton Oswalt]

Exactly. Well, kill them all.

[Greg Jenner]

Obvious question, Frank, how does it go so wrong? Because we've heard that Britain has won this Seven year war, this very expensive war, and everything is rosy.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They vanquished France. Finally, it has a huge public debt as a result of the war, and it's looking to pay down that debt. Here's a good factoid for you. The average person In Britain pays 26 shillings per year in taxes. The average person in Massachusetts pays one.

[Greg Jenner]

So, well, pay up pattern. You owe it.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The Crown says, really?

[Patton Oswalt]

Hang on, let me get my. Oh, my God.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The government says, okay, you need to pay. You've benefited from this conflict. You ought to pay for your own defense.

[Patton Oswalt]

Right, and what did we say? How did we react to that?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, Patton, you may know that Americans love to pay taxes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, my God. Get out of my way. Let me mail this check in.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So what the British did was they instituted various governments, instituted a variety of taxes. The most famous, the one we did learn about in school, the Stamp act, of course, in 1765, is the most infamous. And that's unprecedented because it's a direct tax on Americans in their colonies. People in Massachusetts say we pay taxes that are levied by our government. We're represented in that government. That's the way the system works. If you're paying 26 times more than we are, you're paying too much tax. And so their position is not necessarily just greed. It's actually there is kind of intellectual consistency There.

[Greg Jenner]

We haven't mentioned the Townsend Acts. They are the one. They're the official parliamentary act which allow for the taxation of the colonists, Right?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So what happens is there's widespread resistance to the stamp act in 1765. Parliament repeals it in 1766, but adopts something called the Declaratory act in 1766, which is basically a parent saying, okay, I'm giving in to you, but next time you have to do what I say. Because the Declaratory act says, which always works.

[Patton Oswalt]

Always works.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They say, we're repealing the Stamp act, but the Declaratory act says, but we have the authority to tax you in all cases whatsoever. And the following year, they adopt the Townshend duties. The Townshend duties are more import duties, more tariffs.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Frank, these harsh parliamentary acts, they lead to violence, Right? Because we've got the Boston Massacre in 1770, when British troops are actually firing on people.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So what happened was the resistance to these taxes is mainly centered in the port towns because those are the only cities in the colonies. So Boston, New York, Newport, Richmond. And that's where the trade is. Yep. Charleston, et cetera. And that's also where there are crowds and sailors who can be mobilized, things like that. And there are groups that form, called the Sons of Liberty, that enforce boycotts and resistance to these taxes. So the resistance was centered in Boston. It wasn't only in Boston, but it was quite. It was most virulent in Boston. And as a result, the British sentence troops to Boston in 1768. Redcoat troops. There are a series of incidents that take place, the most prominent of which occurs on March 5, 1770. Incident known as the Boston Massacre. Eight civilians are shot, five of whom die. There was a crowd of up to 300 people who are harassing British soldiers, throwing snowballs, ice balls, bricks, and so on at the soldiers. Bricks.

[Greg Jenner]

We get the Boston Tea Party after that, which, again, sounds like a sort of genteel Jane Austen thing. But it's a paramilitary organization, this Son to Liberty.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They are certainly a political movement that is willing to use force or threaten to use force. And those threats are credible because they've done it enough. So the background of this is Parliament adopts something called the Tea act, which is meant to help the British East India Tea Company, which has huge interest in Parliament, little corruption there. And this calls attention to people, to taxation again. So a group of about 60 sons of Liberty, rather crudely disguised as indigenous Americans, they board the tea ships. There are three of them in Boston Harbor. They destroy 342 chests of tea. But they clean up after themselves. It's not. Wait, they do they do they? Also, nobody's meant to pilfer anything else off these cargo ships or off the wharf. So it's meant to be a controlled demonstration to show that there are limits to resistance.

[Greg Jenner]

So what does the king's government do? What does George III do? You know, you've got the tea protest. Is he sitting and stewing? Is he letting rebellion brew? Is he stirring the pot until things boil over? T pun tea. Pun tea. What is he doing?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Parliament penalizes the colonies. The king and his government want to take a hard line. They adopt a series of acts called the Coercive Acts to punish Boston.

[Patton Oswalt]

Good branding.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. The government of Massachusetts is replaced with a military. The governor of Massachusetts is replaced with a military governor. The port of Boston's closed until the T is paid for, and so on. There are a series of acts intended to punish Boston and also to separate Massachusetts from the other colonies.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, like to make the other colonies, what, go like, we don't want anything to do with them.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Like that.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, okay. Divide and conquer.

[Greg Jenner]

Divide and conquer. That the British way. That then leads to the outraged colonists forming the first Continental Congress, headed up by the first president in American history, a great man from Virginia such as yourself. And his name is.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hang on. George Hanson. No, not George Washington. No, no, I know that George Washington.

[Greg Jenner]

Who?

[Patton Oswalt]

What's his name?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Frank Peyton Randolph.

[Patton Oswalt]

Peyton Randolph. What?

[Greg Jenner]

Who?

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow. Wait a minute. Go right ahead, please. I literally never heard this name. I've heard the name George Hansen. I've never heard Peyton Randolph.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

I don't have a lot to give you, Patton, except he's a very prominent political figure in Virginia in the mid-1770s. He's a lawyer, He's a planter. He's a big deal in Virginia, and he gets elected to preside over this first Continental Congress.

[Patton Oswalt]

So technically, he's the first president.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. Okay. And what is the Congress? What's their policy then? What do they agree?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

They agree on a number of things. They agree that the individual colonies should start raising militias to prepare for a possible war.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, okay, so that's a serious one. That.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That's very serious. But they're not providing any money for that. They're just saying, you should do this. They say that the colonies stand back and stand by. Yes, exactly. The colonies should boycott British goods. So they're responding to the British closure of the port of Boston by saying, we're not buying any British goods. They want to stop Paying British taxes and of course not obey the Coercive Acts. And they adopt a Declaration of Rights in October of 1774 which says that they, that is the colonies are entitled to life, liberty and property and that they have never ceded to any foreign power whatever a right to dispose of either without their consent. So this is about no taxation without representation. Yeah, Life, liberty and property, which comes from John Locke. Where? Not quite to life, liberty and happiness yet. We'll get there.

[Patton Oswalt]

When did you get the split between colonists and Loyalists? When did that split happen?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's kind of two parts. When the war breaks out in the spring of 75, it starts because people have to start making choices, but really with the Declaration of Independence, because it's whether either you support independence or you don't. Right. That's when so. But in this moment.

[Greg Jenner]

So when there's a referendum, really.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah, exactly, Greg. In this moment, they're still kind of British, kind of American, and trying to work out what the boundary between the two is.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Americans are starting to stockpile weapons, they're starting to sort of drill troops sort of quietly in the corner. But the British authority is obviously not terribly keen on this. And so Parliament declares Massachusetts in rebellion. So particularly one state in rebellion.

[Patton Oswalt]

That Tea Party thing really stung.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, it's a lot of money.

[Patton Oswalt]

They lost, really dwelt on that.

[Greg Jenner]

I've seen Mary Poppins, the Bank of England. Very upsetting. So Thomas Gage is someone we need to introduce here. Frank, very quickly, who's Thomas Gage? Why do you have.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He is the commander in chief of British forces in North America. He's also been appointed as the military governor of Massachusetts under the Coercive Acts. He's got an American wife, interestingly.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He is believed to understand Americans.

[Patton Oswalt]

Taking our women.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And Gage is in charge and he's ordered by the government in early 1775 to do something about Massachusetts. And so he wants the. He's ordered in February to kind of crack down. Massachusetts is declared in rebellion. He's ordered to crack down on the leadership of the resistance there. In April, he sends troops to Lexington and Concord to both seize Mun that the so called Patriot militia are stockpiling and arrest the leaders of the resistance in the colony. Lexington and Concord are now suburbs of Boston, 15, 20 miles west of Boston. They arrive in Lexington first. They're confronted by some militiamen on Lexington Green and there's a brief exchange of shots. Nobody knows who fired the first shot. Eight militiamen were killed, the rest ran off. Then the British go on To Concord. There's a fight at Concord Bridge that only lasts about three minutes. There's a larger fight over the course of the rest of the day. But the fighting at Lexington and Concord is relatively brief.

[Patton Oswalt]

Nothing good comes out of the suburbs. I've always said everything bad comes out of the suburbs. So there you go.

[Greg Jenner]

And we then get the Second Continental Congress because the first one achieved some things, but now shots have been fired. So what is the second?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's starting to act like a government. Now. The first one wasn't really a government. It was sort of, hey, let's get together and coordinate our response.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The Second Continental Congress is acting like a government because there's a war on, but again, still looking forwards and backwards at the same time, because what they really are saying, they're saying, king George, please intervene and stop this. They sent something called the Olive branch petition.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

17,000 patriot militiamen are besieging the British in Boston. The Continental Congress is raising an army. But they're also saying, hey, we want to make up. Let's just. Let's just go back to the way things were. So they're in this weird. Between April of 1775 and July of 1776, there's a kind of really weird moment where they're waging war, but also appealing to the king to intervene and stop it.

[Greg Jenner]

And Peyton Randolph, he's had to resign. He's no longer president.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He's gone.

[Greg Jenner]

When do we get George Washington showing up then? When's his.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He goes to the Second Continental Congress representing Virginia, and he wears his uniform to say, hey, I happen to be a soldier. And they appoint him commander in chief of the army.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Olive Branch Petition has been offered by the Second Continental Congress to George iii. And George III says.

[Patton Oswalt]

He says, absolutely not.

[Greg Jenner]

He doesn't even read it. What, doesn't he even read it?

[Patton Oswalt]

Do you think he did that, like, as a power move, as an insult, or. Why didn't he read it?

[Greg Jenner]

Professor Frank, give us a psychological reading.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, to accept it is to recognize the authority of Congress, which he doesn't.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So he didn't accept it, and he.

[Greg Jenner]

Declares the Proclamation Rebellion.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

He declares them in rebellion in October of 1775.

[Greg Jenner]

So at moments like this, Patton, we need a bit of common sense.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

By which I mean common sense. Do you know it?

[Patton Oswalt]

Was that Thomas Paine's pamphlet?

[Greg Jenner]

It is, yeah. Very good.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yay.

[Patton Oswalt]

I know something.

[Greg Jenner]

Well done.

[Patton Oswalt]

All right. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you know about it?

[Patton Oswalt]

Nothing.

[Greg Jenner]

Great. Thank you for coming in. Go right ahead.

[Patton Oswalt]

Please take it off my hands.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Thomas Paine is an English radical who emigrated to Philadelphia in 1774. So he's arrived relatively late. He writes this pamphlet called Common Sense, which is published on January 10, 1776, that basically says independence is the answer. Here. Give up your loyalty to the crown. The king's not gonna be there for you. A parent doesn't wage war on its children. He can turn a phrase. The guy can write. It sells 150,000 copies. It's by far and away the biggest bestseller of the 18th century.

[Patton Oswalt]

Probably I've only seen the movie version.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And he makes an incredibly powerful case for independence. This is a reassuring and incredibly powerful message.

[Greg Jenner]

And so the Continental Congress appoints a committee to draft the Declaration of Independence. And do you know who's on that committee?

[Patton Oswalt]

Jefferson, Hancock, Clymer. Each colony is represented. Is there 13 people on it or more? There's more.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

No, no, no, no.

[Patton Oswalt]

What?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Unless I'm wrong, there are five.

[Patton Oswalt]

Five? Who are the five?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Okay. Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams. Roger Sherman.

[Greg Jenner]

Never heard of him.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Robert Livingston.

[Greg Jenner]

Never heard of him.

[Patton Oswalt]

Never heard of him.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Sherman's from Connecticut. Livingston's from New York. They're the two that always get forgotten.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, like how? These poor guys, they've done so much. They wrote one of the most important documents in history. And everyone. Jefferson presents it to Congress on 20th of June.

[Patton Oswalt]

It's voted for on July 4th, 1776.

[Greg Jenner]

July 2nd.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, my God. American education, folks.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, I understand why you've said that, but John Adams famously says, On July 2, I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows and games and sports and guns and bonfire and illuminations from one end of the continent to the other from this time forward, forevermore. He's basically saying, July 2nd will forever be.

[Patton Oswalt]

Boy, could he call it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Yeah. Why do we think it's July 4th?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

Why do we.

[Greg Jenner]

And was it July 4th?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Well, what happens on July 4th is. So they vote on independence on July 2nd. 12 colonies vote in favor of it. New York abstains. Then they spend the next two days editing, and then they formally adopt the document, the Declaration itself, on the 4th of July. So that is the date, but the vote was on the second. Adams recognized that the vote was incredibly important. But this is the day.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And New York comes along on the 2nd of August and goes, all right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yeah. Guess if you're all going, whatever, great.

[Patton Oswalt]

We're in.

[Greg Jenner]

The colonies are abuzz. With people exalting the cause of liberty. But I have to ask, what about indigenous peoples? You know, what we might call Native Americans? What about free and enslaved black people? Are their liberties mentioned at all? Is anyone thinking about them?

[Patton Oswalt]

And are women mentioned?

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Excellent questions. The declaration, of course, says all men are created equal. So there's gendered language there. There's no doubt. Those three groups, of course, constitute the majority of the population by a considerable margin. There are two things you need to bear in mind. In 1776, the vast majority of people who lived in North America were indigenous.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Mustn't ever forget that. And in those seaboard colonies that are rebelling and declaring independence, 20% of the population was enslaved. So on one hand, we can say, this is liberty for me and not for thee. The question of what will happen to both indigenous people and enslaved people, the war calls us into question all the time because both sides seek to enlist the support of black and indigenous soldiers. For example, we have the kind of horrible paradox that enslaved people are fighting each other for their liberty because both sides promise them liberty if they'll support them.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So it's a complicated question.

[Greg Jenner]

And for women, do any of the states allow women to vote?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

You know, New Jersey really doesn't get a lot of credit. No, New Jersey is.

[Patton Oswalt]

Let him vote. Fine. You know, what are you gonna do?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Let him go. In the aftermath of the revolution, New Jersey adopts a constitution that allows women who can meet the property requirements to vote in the state to vote. New Jersey women are the first women in America to vote. Now, the vote's taken away from them in the early 19th century, but there's a period of about two decades for women vote in New Jersey.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Let's get back to the war. We get another big win. Battle of Saratoga, which is a huge one for Washington's army. And this is a big win over John Burgoyne. The British general.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

That's right. He's defeated by the Continental army, not by Washington. Interesting. As another general in command, Horatio Gates. Washington is Horatio Gates.

[Greg Jenner]

Good name.

[Patton Oswalt]

Nice name. Very good name.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And Benedict Arnold is prominent in that fighting for the Patriots. But the point is, Burgoyne, what happened to him?

[Greg Jenner]

He's beloved.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Never heard from again. The reason Saratoga's important is it's the first really big victory that the colonists, the rebels, inflict on the British in almost a year. And it shows the French that the rebels are credible. Because of the victory at Saratoga, Benjamin Franklin, who's then American ambassador in Paris, negotiates a formal Treaty with France. And In February of 1778, France recognizes the United States, enters into a military alliance, and suddenly, Britain's in a lot of trouble.

[Greg Jenner]

The big military win that shocks everyone is Yorktown, 1781. The Americans defeat a big British army. And this is the end of the war. Which no one's seen that come in, right?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. The French and the Americans defeat a big British army. That's really, really important. So what happened is, after Saratoga and the French alliance, the British concentrate on the southern colonies because they're the more lucrative. And they've kind of written off the north. And they send an army under General Cornwallis to the south. That army fights around the south. It ends up going to Yorktown, Virginia, seeking resupply. It's blockaded there. In the fall of 1781, a combined Franco American army marches south from New York. And there's some fighting. There's a siege that goes on. Cornwallis ultimately surrenders. Now, it need not be the end of the war, though, right, Because Britain fought France for 25 years.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna say Britain's a superpower. Britain fight forever.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Britain has the means to get.

[Greg Jenner]

In the words of Captain America, I can do this all day.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The government collapsed because the war wasn't popular in Britain.

[Greg Jenner]

So the war ends, and there are peace treaty. Do you know where the peace treaty's held?

[Patton Oswalt]

I don't.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you wanna guess?

[Patton Oswalt]

Philadelphia.

[Greg Jenner]

No, it's Paris. Oh. Sort of neutral territory, but not really because they've been a war. Right. So they've all got to go to Paris. And it's a sort of big old. Kind of like, we'll have this. You have that. But the thing that's quite interesting is that they're discussing kind of boring stuff like fishing treaties.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

It's not boring if you live in New England.

[Greg Jenner]

All right. Sorry. Take it back.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

And John Adams is a New Englander.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure. Okay.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

So North Sea fisheries, incredibly important industry. But, yes, they are. They're arguing about fishery.

[Patton Oswalt]

How much cod can I catch? I gotta know.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

But they do talk about fishing. Crucially, the Americans and British make a side deal. According to the alliance of 1778, the French say to the Americans, under the terms of that treaty, no separate peace with the British. We're in this together. The Americans make a separate peace. They betray the French.

[Patton Oswalt]

But hang on. Wasn't part of the British thinking that, fine, we'll let them have this one. They won't be able to sustain this, and we'll just slowly chip away at him and we'll get him back.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Yes. So the British give incredibly generous borders to the new United States. All the territories south of the Great Lakes and west to the Mississippi River.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. Okay, so that's a huge tranche of land.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Basically a third of the present continental United States, with the exception of Florida, which goes to the Spanish. And the reason the British do that is they think this is gonna fail. They're gonna fail.

[Greg Jenner]

You'll be back.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

We're gonna get all this back. It's gonna fall into our laps. Now, if we'd said this a couple years ago, we'd say, well, ha ha, they got fooled. Maybe they're playing a long game, the British, and then we are going to be back. Who knows? Maybe it is going to fail.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. Actually, wait a minute. Are we seeing. This is a very long game.

[Greg Jenner]

The longest of long cards. Yeah.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance window. This is where Patton and I sit silently to ponder our fishing related treaty clauses while Professor Frank takes to the Congressional floor for two minutes to tell us something important about the American War of Independence. Revolution, whatever you call it. My stopwatch is ready, Frank, take it away.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

The nuance I would like to develop in the nuance window is this is British history as well as American history. And we make a mistake in seeing this as American history only. We need to interpret this as British history as well as American history. These events, because it takes two sides. But also I think we should rethink our understanding of Britain in this period. To some extent, the American Revolution is a failure of the British Constitution. The British Constitution can't accommodate Britons who live overseas. The Americans, that's what their message is from 1765 down to 1775. We're just like you and we have the same rights you do. And Parliament can't accept that. And Parliament doesn't recognize that. And the British constitution, as flexible as it is historically, can't accommodate that. And so to some extent, this is all a result of what might be seen as a British constitutional crisis. That in turn leads Americans to create their own constitution. And they want a written constitution because they say the problem with Britain is the constitution isn't written. So America goes off on its own way. But then Britain historically was often presented as a sort of failure for Britain. And it is, except the British Empire continues to grow and thrive for another century. However they learn their lesson. They don't give rights to settlers anymore and colonists. They don't say, you're on a par with us. They don't allow them to have their assemblies, nor do they ever tax another colony again. So Britain does learn and adapt and its empire is not the same as a result of these events. So these are incredibly important events for the United States. We need to see these events as British events as well and see them in the context of British constitutional and imperial history.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Two minutes exactly. Thank you.

[Patton Oswalt]

Whoa, Professor. Yeah, that was a quill drop.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you feel like you've learned some stuff here?

[Patton Oswalt]

I actually did learn some stuff. There was a lot wanting in my high school and college education.

[Greg Jenner]

I think you did great. Thank you, listener. For more American political history, check out our sequel episode on Becoming America with Chris Addison. We've also got episodes on the Adjourner Truth, we've got one on Frederick Douglass. For more South American independence movements, we have one on Simon Bolivar, which is very good fun. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the uk. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the fantastic Professor Frank Cogliano from the University of Edinburgh. Thank you, Frank.

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

My pleasure. Thank you. It was a lot of fun.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we had the outstanding Patton Oswalt. Thank you, Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

It's so good to learn about my home country of America. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we fight to free another neglected historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and chuck 340 chests of coffee into bott. It's not a political protest. I just hate coffee. Bye.

[Lucy Worsley]

Hello, it's Lucy Worsley here and we're back with a brand new series of lady swindlers. Here we are in cell number one. I'm just shutting us in, Ross.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Lucy Worsley]

Following in the footsteps of some all new criminals.

[Greg Jenner]

Can you take me down to the.

[Lucy Worsley]

Other end of Baker street, please?

[Professor Frank Cogliano]

Don't it jump him.

[Lucy Worsley]

Thank you. Join me and my all female team of detectives as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men.

[Greg Jenner]

This is a story of working class women trying to get by.

[Lucy Worsley]

This is survival Lady Swindlers Season 2 with Lucy Worsley from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on, it almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Hero wherever you get your podcast.