Aristotle (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You're Dead to Me" - Episode on Aristotle

Introduction In the May 2, 2025 episode of BBC Radio 4’s acclaimed comedy podcast, You’re Dead to Me, host Greg Jenner delves into the life and legacy of one of history’s most influential philosophers, Aristotle. Joined by the esteemed Professor Edith Hall of Durham University (History Corner) and the multifaceted comedian Dan Schreiber (Comedy Corner), Jenner masterfully blends scholarly insight with humor to illuminate the complexities of Aristotle’s contributions to Western thought.

Early Life and Education The episode opens with a discussion on Aristotle’s humble beginnings. Born in the town of Stagira, Aristotle was the son of Nicomachus, a physician, and his mother Festus. Tragically, both parents died when Aristotle was around 13 years old, a pivotal moment that set the stage for his future pursuits (04:14). Professor Hall provides context about his family's medical background, noting, “His father came from generations and generations of doctors, to the extent that he's supposed to be descended from Makaon, who is a mythical doctor in the Iliad” (06:19).

At age 17, recognizing his extraordinary intellectual potential, Aristotle was sent to Plato’s Academy in Athens. Here, he spent two decades under the tutelage of Plato, immersing himself in philosophy, astronomy, and natural sciences—fields that diverged from Plato’s more theory-centric focus (06:52). Dan Schreiber humorously remarks on Aristotle’s diverse interests: “He went to the gymnasium… but even better at intellectual things” (05:47).

Contributions to Philosophy and Science Aristotle's time at the Academy was marked by his expansive curiosity. Unlike his mentor Plato, Aristotle actively engaged in empirical research, studying plants, animals, and environmental phenomena. This hands-on approach laid the groundwork for disciplines like zoology and marine biology. For instance, Aristotle’s observations in Lesbos led him to describe over 500 species of animals and early concepts of environmental conservation, such as the extinction of the red scallop due to overfishing (13:03).

Professor Hall emphasizes Aristotle’s versatility, stating, “He wrote about physics, metaphysics, ethics, politics, the soul, animals, storytelling, jurisprudence, law, and justice” (19:15). One of Aristotle’s most enduring legacies discussed in the episode is his development of virtue ethics. Greg Jenner succinctly summarizes this philosophy: “You’re more likely to be happy if you try to be nice… be good, be happy and you will be good” (20:05).

Personal Life and Relationship with Alexander the Great Aristotle’s personal life is portrayed with both levity and depth. After his father’s death, Aristotle marries Pythias in Assos, a coastal city in modern-day Turkey, where they have a daughter also named Pythias. Later, he forms a significant relationship with his young student, Theophrastus (12:09).

A critical turning point occurs when Philip of Macedon, Alexander the Great’s father, invites Aristotle to tutor his son. Despite the dangers associated with Philip’s notorious reputation, Aristotle accepts the position, a decision influenced by both financial incentives and his long-term vision of founding his own institution (15:27). This relationship positions Aristotle at the heart of Macedonian politics, ultimately shaping the course of his career and legacy.

Foundation of the Lyceum Upon returning to Athens after Alexander’s ascension, Aristotle founds the Lyceum—a pioneering educational institution distinct from Plato’s Academy. Unlike the Academy’s exclusive focus on philosophy, the Lyceum embraced a broader curriculum and featured one of the first extensive libraries. Greg Jenner explains, “He saw it as a public-facing institution and he wrote lots of books which we very sadly haven't got” (18:12). The Lyceum became a hub for public lectures and scholarly research, solidifying Aristotle’s role as a central figure in ancient intellectual life.

Ethical Philosophy and Virtue Ethics A significant portion of the episode centers on Aristotle’s ethical philosophy. Virtue ethics, as articulated by Aristotle, emphasizes the cultivation of good character traits (virtues) to achieve eudaimonia, often translated as “flourishing” or “well-being.” Jenner simplifies this complex theory for comedic effect: “You're more likely to be happy if you try to be nice…the moral is to be good and you will be happy” (20:05). This practical approach to ethics contrasts sharply with more abstract philosophical doctrines, underscoring Aristotle’s commitment to applicable wisdom.

Controversial Aspects and Flaws Despite his monumental contributions, Aristotle’s views were not without controversy. The podcast candidly addresses his problematic beliefs, such as his assertion that women were intellectually inferior to men and his justification of slavery. Professor Hall acknowledges these flaws, noting, “He did not believe women were as intellectually capable as men… he thought women cannot think things through” (22:26). Moreover, Aristotle’s endorsement of slavery as a natural institution has left a lasting ethical blemish on his legacy. However, even within these condemnable views, Aristotle exhibited a degree of empathy, as evidenced by his provision to free his own slaves in his will (22:54).

Death and Legacy Aristotle’s life concluded in relative obscurity and controversy. Following political upheavals after Alexander’s death, Aristotle was accused of subverting Athenian youth and faced exile. He chose to leave Athens rather than face persecution, retreating to the island of Euboea, where he died of what is believed to be stomach cancer (23:55). His immediate posthumous reputation was tarnished, but over time, his works were rediscovered and revered, cementing his status as a foundational figure in Western philosophy and science.

Nuance Window: The Quirky Side of Aristotle In a delightful segment titled the "Nuance Window," Professor Hall dispels a common misconception perpetuated by Monty Python’s humorous portrayal of Aristotle as a “bugger for the bottle.” She reveals that this stereotype originated from a 1652 tavern song by John Hilton, establishing that Monty Python’s lyrics were actually a form of plagiarism (26:05). This revelation adds a playful twist to Aristotle’s image, highlighting how historical figures can be subject to long-standing misconceptions.

Conclusion The episode wraps up with reflections on Aristotle’s extraordinary intellect and enduring impact. Dan Schreiber praises Aristotle’s innovative thinking: “What a brain. What an extraordinary footprint to have left on our planet” (27:23). Greg Jenner and his guests underscore the significance of Aristotle’s contributions across various fields, encouraging listeners to appreciate the depth and breadth of his work. The episode concludes with humorous nods to Aristotle’s lost works and a light-hearted farewell, leaving listeners both educated and entertained.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Greg Jenner (04:34): “He is very, very real. Even though just lately some of his works have been banned in China and some of the Chinese Internet started saying he wasn't real.”

• Dan Schreiber (05:47): “Was there any sports at the time? Oh, yeah, I did all the things that you do in track and field at the Olympics.”

• Greg Jenner (19:15): “He writes about physics, on metaphysics, on Nicomachean ethics, the politics on the soul…he's doing everything.”

• Greg Jenner (20:05): “You’re more likely to be happy if you try to be nice…be good, be happy and you will be good.”

• Dan Schreiber (22:17): “That’s a shame, because Helen’s also at my dinner party. So, sorry, Helen, gotta go.”

• Professor Edith Hall (26:05): “Monty Python were being completely plagiaristic. The history of Aristotle bottle songs goes all the way back to 1652.”

Final Thoughts You’re Dead to Me successfully combines humor with historical scholarship to present a multifaceted portrait of Aristotle. By addressing both his monumental achievements and his personal and philosophical flaws, the podcast offers a balanced and engaging exploration of a figure who remains pivotal in understanding the foundations of Western thought.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome.

To youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are dusting off our philosophy textbooks and going back nearly 2,400 years to ancient Greece to learn all about one of history's greatest beardy chin strokers, Aristotle. And to help us tell our virtue ethics from our empiricism, we have one top notch teacher and one very eager pupil in History Corner. She's professor of Classics at Durham University and a Fellow of the British Academy. You might have heard her on Radio 4's Natalie Haynes, stand up for the classics or Radio 4's Great Lives. Maybe you've read one of her many books, including Aristotle's How Ancient Wisdom can Change your Life and her most recent book, Facing down the Furies. And you'll know her from our episode on Mr. Triangle himself, Pythagoras. It's Professor Edith Hall. Welcome back, Edith. Hi.

I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. Though I would dispute that Aristotle's actually dead to me because I dream about him almost every night.

Okay, we'll get into that Later. And in Comedy Corner, he's a writer, comedian, presenter, producer and podcaster. He's a polymath. Maybe you've listened to his incredible podcasts, no Such Thing As a Fish. And his new show, We Can Be Weirdos. And you'll definitely remember him from our episode of youf're Dead to Me, all the way back in series one on Young Napoleon, it's Dan Schreiber. Welcome back, Dan.

[Dan Schreiber]

Hey, thanks for having me. I have to say, Aristotle, from what you were saying just before we started recording. Absolutely. The time person I'd want to sit down and ask weird questions to. He sounds really interesting.

[Greg Jenner]

So last time out, Dan, we. We had you back in 18th century France and Corsica, and we were following the travails of a young man called Napoleoni.

[Dan Schreiber]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you feel about ancient Greece? Is this a comfort area for you?

[Dan Schreiber]

No, I'm equally as ignorant in ancient Greece as I am at that time.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Aristotle is one of the most famous Western philosophers of all time. He's one of the most famous names in all of history. Maybe you're picturing a beardy guy in a robe. Maybe he's lecturing a bottle blonde Alexander the Great, because you've seen the movie Alexander where all the Macedon Macedonians were Irish for some strange reason. Perhaps you've encountered Aristotelian ethics through the wonderful sitcom the Good Place. But who was this philosopher who changed intellectual life in the west forever? How did he get to be so brainy and so important? And what do you do when a king orders you to tutor his frat boy, son? Let's find out. Right, Professor Edith, let's start at the beginning. Where and when was Aristotle born? What was his family situation like?

Aristotle actually had a really boringly normal personal life. So he's a GP son. He's son of the GP in a little town called Stagira, which means the dripping place. Cause it's high up on a cliff where the waters drip down into the sea. And Dad's called Nicomachus.

Nicomachus, yeah.

[Dan Schreiber]

He's definitely real. Right, Aristotle.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dan Schreiber]

Because there's so many of these characters from this period where the stuff was written about them. All these years after and you find out, oh, Pythagoras. Was that a real guy? Aristotle's like, he's real.

[Greg Jenner]

He is very, very real. Yeah, he's Extremely real. Even though just lately some of his works have been banned in China and some of the Chinese Internet started saying he wasn't real. Oh, take it from me, not the Chinese Internet. So his mother was called Festus and he seems to have been very fond of her. But very sadly his parents died when he was about 13. Both of them, we don't quite know why.

[Dan Schreiber]

Does he cross over with any other great notable character from history? If you were looking global, kind of like Cervantes and Shakespeare were living in the same period. Right.

[Greg Jenner]

Like he's on a cusp between what we call classical Athenian democratic Athens. So that's the Parthenon, it's Pericles, it's the Peloponnesian War and the Persian Wars. And then because he teaches Alexander the New, what we call the Hellenistic world, which is after the Macedonian takeover of the Persian Empire.

What do you think he does with his time? You know, 13, 14.

[Dan Schreiber]

Was there any sports at the time? Oh, yeah, I'm sort of going off Monty Python sketches here, but yeah, you.

[Greg Jenner]

Went to the gymnasium, you did all the things that you do in track and field at the Olympics. He's got huge respect for athletics and health and training in all of his work. So I suspect that it was just. He was very good at athletics, but even better at intellectual things.

Yeah, he's absolutely excelling everywhere. And so his brother in law and his sister spot the talent and go, this kid needs proper training.

Right, Absolutely. Otherwise he would undoubtedly have become the general practitioner in Stegora. Because these things were hereditary.

Right.

And in fact, his father came from generations and generations of doctors to the extent that he's supposed to be descended from Maka on, who is a mythical doctor in the Iliad, who was the son of Asclepius, the actual God of medicine. Either his sister or his brother in law just got so fed up with this boy going on and on about, you know, saying, do I know I'm really here? Do we exist at supper? Right. So they say, okay, we got money. What's the best university in the world? Oh, we know. It's Plato's Academy in Athens. Send him off at 17.

So Aristotle rocks up to Plato's Academy. He's going to learn from this superstar philosopher. And Plato had been taught by Socrates.

[Dan Schreiber]

That's wild. Was there a fourth after Aristotle?

[Greg Jenner]

Theophrastus?

Yeah. Oh, he's not impressed.

[Dan Schreiber]

Not as big a name as the other three.

[Greg Jenner]

Aristotle was his star pupil. He stayed on and became a teacher, you know. Cause he stayed there for 20 whole years Plato died. I think he was perfectly happy there, but he gradually became more and more.

Important and he studies a variety of things at the academy. Right. So it's not just philosophy, it's astronomy, natural science.

Wow. He studies lots of things that Plato really wouldn't have approved of. I mean, I think that's the really important thing. So Plato's academy did not study natural science at all?

Oh, really?

No, no, no. I think Aristotle was out there sort of picking up mushrooms and stones and sort of measuring plants and trees and doing all kinds of things which Plato.

Wouldn'T have particularly have approved because Plato's just hardcore theory.

Well, it's the three great branches of philosophy, as they were then, which are ethics, how should I live? Epistemology, how do I know things, and ontology. What is existence? It's hardcore philosophy. He liked maths. Yeah. All theoretical. But the things like natural science, Socrates had played around with in his youth but had given up. And there is no sign that Plato was interested in it at all.

[Dan Schreiber]

How interesting.

[Greg Jenner]

So he writes about lyric poetry, he writes about drama, he writes about epic, which I guess is the Iliad, the Odyssey. He writes about comedy, but we don't have it, which is devastating to me because you and I both love comedy. We don't have his book on comedy.

We've lost book two of the Poetics.

[Dan Schreiber]

How did we lose it? Where did it go?

[Greg Jenner]

Most of the stuff we lost because Byzantine monks didn't like it.

Didn't get the job, you think.

Trashed. We've lost almost all of Sappho because various Christian bishops said we don't want any of that lesbian pornography, that kind of thing. I suspect there was an awful lot that wasn't really appropriate to the Greek Orthodox Church in Aristotle on comedy.

[Dan Schreiber]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So I don't know what was in it. I have read everything that Aristotle wrote in his surviving works about humour. I'm sad to say that he says that we've all got to be humorous. If we've got to be a good person is going to be humorous. But he says that there are two extremes. There is a mean, which is just to be appropriately witty, and that isn't very promising.

Yes, Dan. Appropriate wit.

[Dan Schreiber]

Appropriately. What did he label himself as? Was he.

[Greg Jenner]

I think he thought he was an appropriate wit.

In 348 a big thing happens to him. The death of Plato, 348 BCE. His tutor, his sort of his great intellectual figurehead, dies and again the idyllic life comes crashing down around him. And you might assume that he gets the gig teaching at the Academy, takes over running the school.

[Dan Schreiber]

I wouldn't assume that, no. Okay, well, no, because clearly he's gone into the natural sciences. Plato is going, this guy's lost the plot. He'd be the equivalent of a fringe scientist these days. You'd be like, what's happened to this guy? He was. So that the brain's got faulty. I assume because of the power of Plato as well, that other people around him would be going, why is he talking? Why is he looking at mushrooms? What's going on?

[Greg Jenner]

You've clearly deduced what happened because he doesn't get the job, that he's expecting the rivals sort of step in and muscle him out. And it's a guy called Speusippus.

Yeah. Which means enthusiast for horses. He was, to my mind, a rather boring mathematician and nobody's ever heard of him. But he was also related to Plato.

Oh, nepotism.

Partly nepotism. But I suspect it was much more envy that all the other people at the academy just couldn't stand the fact that this guy so outclassed them that instead of saying, great, we make him in charge and we're in his slipstream and we can all benefit. It's bye bye, Aristotle.

So he doesn't get the gig and he instead he gets an invitation to go to a new place.

He does.

And this place is called Assos.

Yeah.

[Dan Schreiber]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

And off he goes to Assos, which.

Is where it's absolutely stunning. It's on the western coast of Turkey, but further down, the nearest island is Lesbos. So if you can see, it's about sort of halfway down.

And he's invited by a guy called Hermias, who is a former slave who's now ended up as king.

That's what they say. There's been some sort of coup. He may have committed murder. He may have murdered the tyrant. He's become king, or tyrant, which means somebody who's come into monarchical power, but not through hereditary. And he invites Aristotle over, apparently to help him write a constitution, which sounds.

Very progressive and modern, doesn't it? So he heads off to Assos. I spent Most of my 30s on Assos too, but I was mostly trying to buy skinny jeans.

[Dan Schreiber]

That would be an Aristotle.

[Greg Jenner]

That's an appropriate wit, everyone. So Assos, he goes there and he finds love.

He does. It's either Hermes daughter or his adopted daughter or possibly his niece. But anyway, it's a posh woman in his court called Pythias. Called Pythias. He marries Her. And it seems to have been very happy.

They have a daughter together, also called Pythias, because Aristotle, apparently, you know, he's run out of names. He's like, well, you know, I've met one possible.

But it's also possible that she actually died in childbirth, in which case it would have been very natural to call the little girl.

Oh, that's sad. But they move to the isle of Lesbos. They do, which is not far from Essos. And we've got this single dad with his little girl. What do you think they get up to on Lesbos? What do you think Aristotle is going to do?

[Dan Schreiber]

I'm not going to take the bait, buddy. Nice try. Well, I don't know. Give me a bit more about Lesbos. What is the island like? Is it populated at this point?

[Greg Jenner]

Very much so. There are three big cities, the most big. The biggest is Mytilene.

And it's a very cultured. It's a place of great culture.

It's deeply cultured.

[Dan Schreiber]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

Very ancient. It's had the poet Sappho. It's had another very famous poet called Alas. It's already in the Iliad as the land of fair women. Also got the most extraordinary natural world. I mean, botanists today will say it's got outstanding amount of really interesting plants that don't exist anywhere else. And it's got this massive lagoon, which is a lake, which is mainly fresh water, but it actually blurs into saltwater and meets the sea. And it had such an amazing amount of interesting creatures living in it that Aristotle said, I know what I want to be now. I'm going to be a marine zoologist.

[Dan Schreiber]

Did he invent that?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

Yeah.

[Dan Schreiber]

Wow. The question of what did he do with his daughter? Sometimes scientists do look at their young experiments. And that's why I was asking about the island. Was it to separate the daughter from the mainland so as to just bring her up believing in weird stuff?

[Greg Jenner]

But I don't think so. The fact is, he got a very good friend, either already had or more likely made. But there was this young guy who was 17 years younger than him, so about 20, called Theo Fraster, and he is a lesbian. He lives on Lesbos. Stop it.

[Dan Schreiber]

Hi. I'm just mirroring what you're saying.

[Greg Jenner]

He's obsessed with plants, and I think they quite literally decided to invent zoology and botany together.

He's not desperately trying to get his job back in Athens.

No. If life gives you lemon, you know.

Study that lemon and write a book about lemon.

[Dan Schreiber]

Exactly. Invent Lemon studies. Yeah, but it does sound like he. It doesn't matter what his life circumstance would have been. The curious mind would have just explored any surroundings.

[Greg Jenner]

I think that's exactly right.

And so when he's there, he describes 500 species of animal. He's looking at plants as well.

[Dan Schreiber]

Yeah, but it was easier back then. There was so much. Nothing had been described when you invented it.

[Greg Jenner]

But he also invents environmental thinking. One of the things he sees or doesn't see in the lagoon, he says there used to be a thing called a red scallop. The fishermen have told me. He talked to all the people who really knew. The fishermen have told me, but. But overfishing has killed it. It is extinct.

[Dan Schreiber]

Yeah. Oh, wow.

[Greg Jenner]

He actually says that that's the first reference in world literature to human industrial farming or anything actually killing off a species.

An extinction is an idea. Isn't really rediscovered until the 18th century.

So he's now actually quite big in green circles.

[Dan Schreiber]

Guys, controversial theory. I think he might have been a time traveller. This feels like someone who's like almost a glitch.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Schreiber]

Like too much information just poured out of the box.

[Greg Jenner]

I think he's got a wristwatch. You think it is?

[Dan Schreiber]

I think if we are living in a simulation, he got the extra weapons.

[Greg Jenner]

I knew you'd make it weird. I didn't think it would be this far in.

[Dan Schreiber]

Well, I needed to hear the evidence first and clearly.

[Greg Jenner]

It's like cyborg, Aristotle.

[Dan Schreiber]

Something's going on.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, he's on Lesbos, he's doing all this, he's having a great time, he's written stuff, and then suddenly he gets a job offer.

Oh, dear.

From a man called Philip of Macedon, who's in the king business. And Philip says, I've got a kid over here, bit of a brat. Could you teach him?

[Dan Schreiber]

And the kid's name is Alexander the Great.

[Greg Jenner]

Not yet great.

[Dan Schreiber]

Not yet great. Alexander the brat. The brat.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's the heir to the throne. He's the son of Philip's fourth wife, Olympias. Complicated court politics, murder, poison, intrigue. You never know you're gonna survive to adulthood. And Aristotle gets the gig and he decides to go. Why?

Well, he gets the gig and decides to go. That's how it's always put in his biographies. I. We don't know any more about it. I would say when you get a letter from Philip, the greatest murderer the Greek world has ever known of Macedon, you don't sit around saying, I don't think I feel like that. Because you might be dead the next day.

You think he's a threat.

Also, it did mean money, money, money, money, money. And I think Aristotle already always had his eye on the long game, which was to found a university to completely outclass the academy.

Cause he does. Alexander is told, you don't have to be a philosopher, but please do listen to the philosophers. Which feels like a compromise, like, okay, all right, you're not gonna be a philosopher, I get it, but can you at least listen to them?

Well, he will have definitely taught him ethics, politics and rhetoric. I mean, this is a sort of curriculum, how to behave.

So rhetoric is speechmaking, how to govern.

Your country and how to speak in public. Yes, this has been the basis of it, but we simply don't know. And everything that Aristotle wrote after Alexander went east, Philip died and Alexander went east, and Aristotle went straight back to Athens and founded the Lyceum. Everything he wrote after. He never really talks about Macedon. He does talk about things like really evil, very rich people or what happens in tyrants, households, you know, that kind of thing, but he doesn't put names to it usually.

It's aged 48 that we get Aristotle returning to Athens. And he's lived life by this point. He has written a new constitution, he's fallen in love, he's become a new dad, he's been widowed, he's invented zoology, he's invented marine biology, he's tutored a trust fund brat and survived the most dangerous blaze in the world. And he's gone back home to Athens. You'd think to take up his job at the Academy, but he doesn't. Right. He ends up opening a rival school, which I don't know if that's petty.

No, it's not petty.

No.

He just wanted to run his own show. I completely get it. He didn't want to go back to all those old rivalries.

But that's called the Lyceum.

And because Theophrastus was natural science and he did it with Theophrastus.

So he brings Theophrastus, utterly loyal to Theophrastus.

Yes, they do it together.

[Dan Schreiber]

Is he received back into Athens as a. As a kind of returning hero?

[Greg Jenner]

Well, not as a returning hero, I don't think, but as a perfectly welcome resident alien. He never got citizenship.

Never really.

But I think he'd got loads of money. I have to say this. I think he was very sensible that he will have been paid extremely well being with Philip of Macedon's court. So he took that money and ran and stayed alive.

And ran and then put some money into the school.

Yes.

So the Lyceum is arguably the first teaching university. The academy is a philosophy class, but this has got a library. This feels like it's something different.

It is something different. One of the things that he did was lecture to the public. In the afternoons they had public lectures. I mean, he saw it as a public facing institution and he wrote lots of books which we very sadly haven't got, which put his complicated ideas in very simple form to circulate amongst the general public. He was highly committed to that. But he only stayed alive for about 13 years. But in that 13 years, my goodness, what he did.

Yeah.

[Dan Schreiber]

Where's his daughter at this point?

[Greg Jenner]

She's with him and he's got a new girlfriend who he never seems to marry. She's called her Pilis and she seems to be a slave or commoner in some way that he couldn't marry. Maybe she. I don't know. You know, we don't know why he didn't marry her, but he treated her as his wife. She was from Stagra, very, very attached to. And he had his son Nicomachus, named after. In the Greek way, his father.

Yeah. So the father of the GP was.

Nicomachus, after whom the Nicomachean Ethics is named.

[Dan Schreiber]

You're holding up a book?

[Greg Jenner]

I'm holding up the Nicomachean Ethics, yeah. Which I, you know, just happen to have in my pocket.

So this is one of. So he writes 160 books. Treatises.

Yeah. And a lot of them, I think, in that time or finished them in that time.

[Dan Schreiber]

How big are these books? Like, are we talking like word count per book?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, God. They vary between 5,120.

[Dan Schreiber]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's writing books on physics, on metaphysics, on Nicomachean ethics, the politics on the soul. He writes about the soul, he writes about animals, he writes about storytelling, he writes about jurisprudence and law and justice and equity. Like he's just every subject, like logic. He's doing everything. And the thing that I suppose he's most famous for in moral philosophy is what we call virtue ethics. How would you sum that? I mean, it's a big subject. How would you sum that up quickly on a comedy podcast?

Okay. You're more likely to be happy if you try to be nice. A and B, you don't have to suppress your emotions and instincts. You've just got to get them in the right amount. That's it.

Job done.

[Dan Schreiber]

Yeah. That's beautiful.

[Greg Jenner]

It's so sensible.

It's Sensible centrist politics. It's what we want. And there are words that are used in philosophy. Eudaimonia.

Yeah. That means flourishing. Flourishing. It's more a verb than a noun. It's not happiness, but living your life in a way that will conduce to happiness.

So be good, be happy and you will be good. And if you be good, you'll be happy.

Basically.

That's pretty good, isn't it?

[Dan Schreiber]

It's very simple. Yeah. I think it's true as well. Not to. He doesn't need my backing, but.

[Greg Jenner]

And there's no life after death. It's all about now. That's very important.

[Dan Schreiber]

Ah, so be here now. He's very Zen, isn't he?

[Greg Jenner]

He's very Zen.

It's now. It's now.

[Dan Schreiber]

This is it.

[Greg Jenner]

You won't get punished afterwards, you'll just be miserable now if you're nasty.

Does he believe in the gods or does he.

Sort of. But they're kind of these weird things that live far away on the.

Yeah.

No interest. It's the unmoved mover. He has no interest. Or she has no interest whatsoever. In human life, you are at your dashboard. You've got to sort it out. Humans have got to sort it out. You can't look to the beyond for any moral answers.

[Dan Schreiber]

So you know that classic question of if you could have a dinner party guest. Sorry? If you could have a dinner party with any guest from history. So Aristotle seems like he's the perfect guest to be there. Out of curiosity, if he was at my dinner party and he saw women at the table at my other. Well, what would he be saying? There is that.

[Greg Jenner]

I think he was a bit of a flirt, actually.

Interesting.

He constantly cites the example of what to do if you really, really fancy your neighbour's wife.

Hang on a minute. You've said adultery was a bad thing. No, he does. He's coveting the world.

He says what to do? And then he gives you the example of Helen of Troy and he says, be like the old men in the Iliad who said when they saw her, God, she's beautiful, but send her back because she's caused the war.

Wow. Okay.

He says, do with your lady you're infatuated with, or man you're infatuated with. Do, Helen. You say, yes, you're gorgeous, and I'll bug her off.

[Dan Schreiber]

That's a shame, because Helen's also at my dinner party. So, sorry, Helen, gotta go.

[Greg Jenner]

I think we do. I mean, we've spent a lot of the episode saying what an extraordinary man. I know. And I'm not gonna back away from. I know, but he has flaws. He's not a saint. There are things that he believed that we would find repellent.

Absolutely.

One of them was that he did not believe women were as intellectually capable as men. Right.

No.

So he thinks women are not as smart.

We do not have a deliberative capacity. We can't think things through. We're all emotion. Therefore, we cannot have full citizenship.

He's also. He's ancient Greek. So he is a slave owner.

He came out with the big justification of slavery that I'm afraid was wheeled out ever from the 15th century to the American Civil War. He was responsible for that.

I think the slavery thing is the thing.

It's a very big one.

We really struggle with it.

It's a very big one. Yeah.

Yeah.

But he does even. I mean, I'm not trying to defend him on this, but he does even say there is a really big problem because quite a lot of slaves do appear to be actually as good and big and clever as we are. His empirical good sense, he does actually admit that. And he also, in his will, had all his own slaves freed so they wouldn't be sold on.

[Dan Schreiber]

Okay, and is that unusual? That's unusual. Okay. There still is a bit of a plot twist on Aristotle, but, you know, that is gonna happen.

[Greg Jenner]

We do have to kill Aristotle off. He sort of dies slightly in ignominy. He's sort of chased out of Athens.

Yes, He's. Why. Okay, so that's to do with Macedonian high politics. This is after Alexander dies and there's lots of jockeying for power and influence, and the Athenians don't want to be taken over by the Macedonians because he's got Macedonian connections. They accuse him of doing the same sort of things they did Socrates, which is subverting the youth, bringing in. You know, it's what he did to philosophers he didn't like.

Okay.

He said, I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of doing a suicide thing like Socrates. I'm going to take the option of exile. And he goes off to the island of Euboea, which was not under Athenian jurisdiction, but where his mother came from. And he had a house, takes his girlfriend, her pilis, and apparently his children, and seems to write this very detailed will, and dies, apparently stomach cancer about a year later.

And Theophrastus stays behind in that. Yes. And keeps his books. And that's how we have them. Right. That's how.

Well, that's a very Long story behind that, but yes, he's got Theophrastus to leave everything too. And that must have been a very great comfort. I mean, Theophrasus was. Nicomachus is still very young. He's got a very adult son who's been his best friend for a very, very long time. Wonderful relationship.

So he died soon after, sort of exile from Athens. And his reputation immediately after is not that burnished with glory. It takes a little while for people to re. Sort of discover his brilliance, I think. Is that fair?

Yeah. Because other more new and shiny philosophical schools took over, especially Stoicism and Epicureanism, which the Peripatos. The academics at the Lyceum carried on and became one of the most dominant schools of antiquity. But not immediately after. No.

So you go, Dan, Aristotle. Pretty good life.

[Dan Schreiber]

Yeah. He's all right. Yeah. No, what an incredible life. It feels silly again saying that, because obviously it must be incredible life. But I was surprised by how few details I knew about what he had actually achieved.

[Greg Jenner]

But when we did the Pythagoras episode, you were able to sort of knock down quite a few myths.

Well, Pythagoras himself left such so little. We have actually almost everything I've said, almost 80% of it is out of his own works. Right. So this is solid testimony.

The nuance window. All right, time now for the nuance window. This is where Dan and I peripatetically promenade around the Lyceum for two minutes while Professor Edith tells us something that we need to know about Aristotle. My stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Edith, take it away.

The one thing that most people have heard about Aristotle was that Monty Python wrote a philosopher's song in which they quoted him. Plato, they say, could stick it away Half a crate of whiskey every day. Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle Hobbes was fond of his dram Rene Descartes was a drunken fart I drink biff I am. That may be the only thing you know about Aristotle, that he was indeed a bugger for the bottle. What I want to tell you though, is that Monty Python were being completely plagiaristic. The history of Aristotle bottle songs goes all the way back to 1652. I have done this research and there is a Tavern song by one John Hilton that was sung in 1652. So actually at a really dodgy moment because, you know, got Oliver Cromwell's running the place and spoiling fun. But he says, come away, come away to the tavern. I say, leave your prittle prattle Phyllis a bo. You're not so wise as Aristotle. What you probably don't know either is that cockney slang for an ass. A back end is an aris. And the reason for this is extremely complicated. Because originally bottle and glass is the passing for arse that goes to just bottle is your arse. But because bottle rhymes with Aristotle, Aristotle ends up as arse and it just.

Ends up as Aris, intellectual history. And then we end up with a bomb joke. That's what should be in his poetics about comedy. Right?

[Dan Schreiber]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Are you kind of like on board with the Aristotle? Because I think we're both team Aristotle over here.

[Dan Schreiber]

I'm impossibly team. I mean, outside of the stuff that is very questionable, I think in terms of stuff, I'm looking at him purely as someone who was thinking differently. Uniquely. What a brain. What an extraordinary footprint to have left on our planet. To have created marine biology, to have been the name of an octopus in the original Addams Family movie. What I would love to do now is just work out how much of modern day life is thanks to his brain. This one brain.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely stuff. Well, thank you so much, Dan. Thank you, Edith. And listener. For more applied philosophy, check out Edith's previous episode on Pythagoras, which was an absolute hoot. We also did an episode on medieval science. And if you want more Dan in your ears, you can scroll all the way down in the app back to 2019 to the young Napoleon with Dr. Laura O'Brien. It's a really fun one. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you again to our guests in History Corner. From the University of Durham, we had the fantastic Professor Edith Hall. Thank you, Edith.

Thank you.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the brilliant Dan Schreiber. Thank you, Dan.

[Dan Schreiber]

Thanks, Greg, to you.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely listener. Join me next time as we return to the classroom for another lesson from the past. But for now, I'm off to go and rewrite Aristotle's lost volume on comedy. I think it's mostly to with bums. Bye.

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