Benedetta Carlini (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me – Episode: Benedetta Carlini (Radio Edit) Summary

Release Date: November 29, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of You're Dead to Me, BBC Radio 4's comedy podcast that takes history seriously, host Greg Jenner delves into the intriguing and scandalous life of 17th-century nun Benedetta Carlini. Joined by esteemed guests Professor Michelle Sauer, a distinguished historian specializing in Medieval studies, and Sophie Duker, an award-winning comedian, Jenner explores the complex interplay between faith, mysticism, and controversy in Benedetta's life.

1. Family Background and Early Life (02:11 - 05:24)

Greg Jenner introduces Benedetta Carlini, born on January 20, 1590, in Villano, Tuscany, Italy, to a wealthy and devout family. Professor Michelle Sauer provides insight into her early life, highlighting that Benedetta was the sole child of Medea and Giuliana Carlini. Her father, being the third richest man in Villano, ensured that Benedetta received a strong religious upbringing. At the tender age of nine, Benedetta entered the convent in Pesha, joining the Theatines, an unofficial religious community founded by Piera Pagni in the same year of Benedetta's birth.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner (05:16): "Is Benedetta like the 'Blessed One'? Absolutely, she was named Benedetta, meaning 'Blessed,' in gratitude to God for her survival at birth."

2. Mystical Visions and Stigmata (05:24 - 16:47)

From an early age, Benedetta exhibited signs of extraordinary piety and mysticism. By age five, she was adept at reciting litanies and praying the rosary independently. She reportedly had a nightingale that would sing on command and even engage in singing the Lauds with her. However, her spiritual experiences were not without darker elements. Benedetta encountered a mysterious black dog that attempted to drag her away, symbolizing a demonic presence.

As Benedetta grew, her mystical experiences intensified. At fifteen, she began exhibiting stigmata—wounds corresponding to those of Jesus Christ. These physical manifestations included intense pain and wounds on her hands, feet, and side, mirroring Christ's crucifixion injuries.

Notable Quote:

Michelle Sauer (06:04): "By the time she was five, she was reciting the litany, saying the rosary on her own, and even experienced miracles like a nightingale singing on command."

3. Rise to Influence and Controversies (16:47 - 22:27)

Benedetta's spiritual fervor eventually led her to take on more significant roles within the convent. At 23, she was elected abbess, reflecting her influence and the trust placed in her by her peers. Her charismatic leadership, however, began to raise eyebrows. She started preaching from the pulpit—a role traditionally reserved for men—and claimed to receive direct messages from divine entities.

Her close relationship with Bartolomea Clivelli, designated as her companion to help manage her intense spiritual experiences, added another layer of complexity. Benedetta's claims included vivid visions of interactions with angels and even a mystical marriage to Jesus, which further fueled suspicions about her true nature.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner (15:23): "She was starting to make the church nervous... visions were looked at with suspicion, especially when they involve such bodily manifestations."

4. Church Investigation and Downfall (22:27 - 25:05)

Benedetta's increasing authority and unconventional claims did not go unnoticed by higher church authorities. The Pope dispatched a nuncio—an official representative—to investigate the legitimacy of her visions and practices. The investigation revealed several troubling signs, including Benedetta's secret consumption of meat and a particular fondness for salami and mortadella, which contradicted her pious facade.

Moreover, allegations emerged about Benedetta engaging in sexual activities with Bartolomea, purportedly under the influence of an angelic figure named Splendatello. This relationship was scrutinized heavily, leading to charges deemed as "Immodest Acts." Under mounting pressure, Benedetta recanted her mystical claims and adhered to orthodox practices. However, historical records suggest that her reformation was superficial, as she was subsequently imprisoned in solitary confinement for 35 years until her death at age 71.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner (22:14): "Benedetta is claiming that Splendatello is making them do it... It's like someone is watching."

5. Nuance Window: Medieval Lesbians and Historical Context (25:05 - 28:30)

In the "Nuance Window" segment, Professor Michelle Sauer expands the discussion to the broader context of medieval lesbianism. She underscores the rarity and societal challenges faced by women in same-sex relationships during the medieval period. Sauer emphasizes that historical documentation often reflects only persecuted relationships, making figures like Benedetta Carlini crucial for understanding the hidden histories of female same-sex relationships.

Notable Quote:

Michelle Sauer (25:30): "Studying medieval lesbians allows for participation in the creation of social and sexual histories and forefronts the female experience in a field that continues to be dominated by white straight men."

6. Conclusion and Legacy (28:30 - 29:15)

As the episode wraps up, Greg Jenner reflects on the tragic arc of Benedetta's life—her rise as a mystical figure, subsequent fall from grace, and the enduring questions about her true experiences and motivations. The episode underscores the complexities of interpreting historical figures who navigated strict religious and societal norms.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner (29:15): "Join me next time as we investigate more historical friendships in inverted commas. But for now, I'm off to go and offer Satan some of my salami."

Closing Remarks

You're Dead to Me seamlessly blends historical analysis with comedic banter, offering listeners an engaging exploration of Benedetta Carlini's life. By juxtaposing academic insights with humor, the podcast makes nuanced historical narratives accessible and entertaining.

Key Takeaways:

• Benedetta Carlini was a prominent 17th-century nun whose mystical experiences and behaviors sparked significant controversy.
• Her relationship with Bartolomea Clivelli and claims of divine interaction were central to the suspicions that led to her investigation and eventual downfall.
• The episode highlights the broader historical context of female same-sex relationships and the challenges faced in documenting such histories.

For those interested in further exploring Benedetta Carlini's story and other historical narratives, You're Dead to Me offers a compelling mix of education and entertainment.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

BBC.

Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are whipping out our wimples and reciting our rosaries as we learn all about the scandalous 17th century nun Benedetta Carlini. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's the Chester Fritz Distinguished professor in English at the University of North Dakota. She's a specialist in Medieval studies, especially Medieval religion, Women's literature, and queer theory, and she's the author of several books. It's Professor Michelle Sauer. Welcome, Michelle.

[Michelle Sauer]

Thanks so much, Greg. It's wonderful to be speaking with you today and to meet Sophie.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, you're very lucky. Sophie's very special and in Comedy corner, she is an award winning comedian, writer and actor as well as her fabulous standup shows. You'll recognize her from TV's 8 out of 10, Cats does Countdown Live at the Apollo, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. But of course you'll remember her from our catalogue, including episodes on Atlantis and Ramses the Great. It's Sophie Duker. Welcome back, Sophie.

Hey, special. Feels like an egg, but I'll take it.

No, no, it was meant to be positive.

I'm very thrilled to be special and to be here and to be meeting Michelle Sauer.

What about Benedetta Carlini? Is this a name that rings any bells?

Church bells? So I don't know. I don't really know anything. That's not quite true. I think I've got the sense that she's some sort of queer iconic, but I don't really know much about her. And I've already heard from your intro that she's a sexy nun. Wait, did you say that or did I? I was projecting. You didn't say that.

I didn't say that.

You didn't say that. I projected. You said wimple and I was like hot. That's what happened. How embarrassing.

It's fine. It's a fantastic insight into your mind there. Yeah, I think Sexy Nun is probably about fair, but we'll see. So what do you. This is the Soadian know. This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And you are? Well, you're probably familiar with nun life, you know, from totally true documentaries like Sister act and the Sound of Music. But you might be less familiar with a small mountain girl called Benedetta Carlini who rose the notoriety in 17th century Italy and then vanished from history until being rediscovered quite recently. But who was the real woman who pretended to be a mystic but was found to be a woman of ill repute? Professor MICHELLE let's start with her family background. Who was Benedetta? Where was she born? When was she born? What was her family situation, please.

[Michelle Sauer]

Benedetta was born on January 20, 1590 on the night of St. Sebastian in a small mountain village called Villano in Tuscany in Italy. She was the only child of Medea and Giuliana Carlini. Her father was the third richest man in Vilano, so it was a well off family.

[Greg Jenner]

Sophie, I know you speak French. Want to test your Italian? Now, do you know what Benedetta translates to in English?

Is it like sexy egg? Benedetta? Is it like blessed one?

Oh, yeah. Bang on, yeah.

Okay. She did Latin as well. All right.

Okay, so, yes, Blessed. Michelle. Blessed. Why Blessed? What was the naming reason for that?

[Michelle Sauer]

Her mother had a very difficult labor, and at one point, it seemed like both mother and child would die. So her father, who was both rich and devout, prayed to God desperately that they lived. And in gratitude, Benedetta was named Blessed, and her father dedicated her to God and promised that she would become a nun.

[Greg Jenner]

What age does she start to sort of become non adjacent? Michelle.

[Michelle Sauer]

I mean, I think she's pretty non adjacent right from the start. By the time she was five years old, she was reciting the litany, saying the rosary on her own. She also experienced miracles as a young girl. She had a nightingale that followed her around, would sing on command, would occasionally sing the Lauds with her.

[Greg Jenner]

That's very Disney Princess to have a bird on your shoulder singing and nightingale as well.

You don't get those anymore. It's crows and pigeons.

[Michelle Sauer]

They're all over medieval literature, but, you know, not in real life anymore. I mean, they exist, but.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so nightingale good. Any bad animal appearances?

[Michelle Sauer]

There was a mysterious black dog that showed up and growled and slobbered and tried to drag her off, and, you know, eventually it just sort of disappeared when she prayed. So that's obviously a demonic manifestation.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, good. I'm enjoying this. This is fun. Okay, so Sophie, how old do you think the Benedetta was when she was first entering the convent?

Okay, so if she's, like, reciting litanies from five years old, I feel probably quite like a young entrant. I'm gonna go with lucky number 13.

That's a good guess. It's a little bit generous. It was nine.

Oh, nine. Okay. Classic age to take on a trait.

So what's the name of the community that Benedetta joined? Michelle.

[Michelle Sauer]

She was born in Valana, which is a small mountain village. And when it came time for her to join a convent, her father basically just took her down the hill to the next biggest city, which is Pesha. And in Pesha, there were three major convents. These convents were filled to the brim. In fact, they were overflowing. And the community that she joined is something called the Theatines. The Theatines were not actually an official order as of yet. When Benedetta joins, they are still an unofficial community, although they had been sanctioned by the church. A woman named Piera Pagni founded this community in 1590, the year that Benedetta was born. And she had applied to the Pope for permission to make this a formal community.

[Greg Jenner]

It's like a startup convent. It's not quite recognized yet. It's like a young cool.

They're disrupting the sector. Yeah. They've gone to venture capitalists.

The 18 are disrupting the sector of female monasteries.

Okay, but what else is going on in the convent, do you think, Sophie, if we are imagining Benedetta as a modern influencer living her hashtag nunlife, what kind of content are you expecting on the gram?

Okay. When you started talking about Benedetta, I really thought that she would, like, have been a great TikTok baby, because it's all like her dad's making her read these litanies. She's got this little bird and stuff. Like, I feel like she would have been creating content from early, doing unboxing videos. Yeah, Just being like it's another rosary. Benedetta, I think, like being like a pretty clearly a pretty smart kid. I think she'd just be like reciting chunks of the Bible, singing stuff, maybe getting the bird involved.

Michelle, Sophie's painted quite a charming image there. Nun life was quite hard. Is that fair?

[Michelle Sauer]

It could be pretty hard, especially if you're one of a lot of orders had something called lay sisters. They're the uneducated ones who did all the hard work, the cooking and the cleaning. Choir sisters were the ones who were educated and spent their time making silk and sewing and praying and singing.

[Greg Jenner]

We have a young nun, Benedetta. Her life is sort of on track to be fairly conventional. And then at 23, it changes. Michelle, why 23?

[Michelle Sauer]

Well, you know, we don't really know a lot about her between the ages of 9 and 23. Presumably she's doing this conventional thing, except that we have one sort of indication that she is still special. Right away. When she first got to the Convent at age 9, she had gone into the convent chapel and was praying in front of the theatine's Madonna statue when the blessed Virgin Mary sort of manifested within this statue and leaned forward to kiss Benedetta. But she sort of panicked, freaked out, and then the statue fell as she ran off. But she didn't tell anybody about the almost kiss.

[Greg Jenner]

None of my Virgin Mary statuettes have ever tried to patch on me. So that is feeling a bit slighted.

Another vision, Michelle, involves quite a sort of Edenesque vibe.

[Michelle Sauer]

One was definitely Edenesque she was walking in a beautiful garden full of fruits and flower, many of which wouldn't be growing at the time or place in which she lived. There was a fountain full of scented water. These visions were both beautiful and reassuring because angels would also join her in them.

[Greg Jenner]

And she's also mountain climbing, so it is the Sound of Music. She's climbing every mountain, she's fording every stream. She's following her rainbow and she's gonna find her dream.

That's beautiful. She's just a nun walking through the mountains, tripping her nut off.

It's, it's all very PG friendly so far, but then Benedetta's visions got quite heavy metal. Sophie. Oh, we've got quite a quick mini quiz for you actually. Which of these visions did Benedetta not claim to have experienced? So, five options. Here we go.

Okay.

One, she was pursued by handsome young men in iron chains with weapons. Two, Jesus ripped out her heart and she lived without a heart for three days. Three, an angel in a white robe, gold chain, long curly hair named Splenditello brought her a double edged wand made of flowers and thorns. Four, she married Jesus. Five, an angel told her to go vegan. Which of those. Not true.

I think she was told to go vegan. Jesus taken her heart. It's very poetic, like walking around without a heart for three days. It's relatable content. She's basically Charlie xcx. I think that Splenditello sounds a bit much.

Okay, you're rejecting Splenditello and his lovely curly hair.

I think he's modeled on you, Greg.

I would love to be Splenditello. I don't have the looks to pull it off. I've got the curly hair and nothing else. It's actually a trick question. Sophie. All five are true.

Oh my God.

Sorry, sorry. That's us being very mean there. But we thought maybe it would be fun to, to see if you could tell them apart, but no. Yeah, she claims all five. So she claims her heart's ripped out for three days. She claims to be going vegan, marrying Jesus. Splendetello comes to her, offers her a double wand of flowers and thorns, and pursued by young men who attack her with weapons and chains. So quite a quite an array of visions here.

Yeah.

Michelle. Benedetta also started to have the physical signs of holy interactions, what we might call stigmata.

[Michelle Sauer]

From about 16, 15 forward, she started experiencing intense pain over her entire body. The stigmata are representative wounds on an individual's body that are the same they correspond with the wounds on Jesus Christ's body. So it would be the hands, the feet, the side wound, and in some extreme cases of stigmata, manifestation of the crown of thorns.

[Greg Jenner]

These are huge claims to be making. I suppose the obvious question is, were there others in the convent reporting similar things? Michelle, is she alone in this?

[Michelle Sauer]

There are no other people in the convent who are reporting this. This is not a typical thing. The stigmata itself is considered an extreme gift that very few saints had ever received. The most famous of these would be Saint Francis of Assisi, and there were a few others that were accepted. Saint Catherine of Siena received the stigmata in her heart, and that was internal and not external. But other than that, it's not common at all.

[Greg Jenner]

So Benedetta is having these pretty powerful physical and visual visitations and visions. How do you think her fellow nuns were handling that at the dinner table?

It feels like, especially if there's not other people doing it, if it's not part of the, you know, company culture to be having visions, then if you kind of state yourself out as having very disruptive and evocative visions, I feel like it'd probably get on a few of the nuns. Tits.

The thing that's intriguing to me, Michelle, is the community sort of give Benedetta a kind of friend to play with almost. It's a bit like, all right, look, you need someone to keep you company, and they give you a young woman called Bartolomea Clivelli. Is that right?

[Michelle Sauer]

That's right. With these violent visions, they were worried about her, so she gets her buddy.

[Greg Jenner]

Her buddy Bartolomea. And Benedetta now sort of steps it up. She starts preaching from the pulpit, which is a big no no, isn't it? That's a man's job, right?

[Michelle Sauer]

Huge no no.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. And then in 1619, the other nuns elect her the abbess of the nunnery. Michelle. So she's not unpopular.

Wow.

[Michelle Sauer]

She's not unpopular at all.

[Greg Jenner]

The following year, the community received its official paypal permission to become a closed community. Sophie Benedetta starts living her best life with her BFFs, Bartolomeo, and of course, Splendatello, the angel Splendor Teller.

Can't forget him.

But that official stamp of authority then means presumably the church is then looking more closely at what's happening, because suddenly the church authorities show up and go, hang on a second. What? There's a woman preaching, claiming mystic visions. We'd better check this out because we now get an official process of interrogation. Michelle.

[Michelle Sauer]

Yeah, she was starting to make the church nervous. Right. Women with too much authority and too much pull, for one thing, made ecclesiastical powers nervous. But just in general, visions were looked at with suspicion. More and more they could be coming from the devil, especially when they involve such bodily sorts of visions.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, so the fear here is that she is being visited by Satan, not by an angel.

[Michelle Sauer]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Gotcha. Okay, so we get the Provost of Pestia Stefano Cecchi sort of showing up to physically examine the stigmata, the wounds, starts asking questions. Sophie is becoming a bit official. What do you think, Bartolomea? Does Sophie, the sort of best friend who's been appointed.

So, like, they're like besties at this point? Is she like a waiting maid or are they just like companions?

Yeah, a bit of both. Is it Michelle?

[Michelle Sauer]

Yeah, she is there to, I guess, help out Benedetta, make sure that she's brought back to Earth after her visions, that her body is cared for. If her heart's removed for three days, then somebody has to take care of what's left behind.

[Greg Jenner]

And Bartolomea says that she had to put the heart back in.

Wow.

[Michelle Sauer]

Yes, she is a devoted companion. Not only does she confirm to this inquiry board, to the Provost of Pesha, that Benedetta did indeed exist three days without a heart, while this exchange with Jesus was going on, but that she herself pushed it back into Benedetta's body.

[Greg Jenner]

Sophie, have you ever done that for a friend?

Have you ever pushed a heart back in? No, I've held the hair back while they've been sick, but I've never pushed the heart back into the body. I've never reversed Temple of Doomed. A friend.

Okay, so Benedetta has a very loyal friend here. And Bartolomeo is going on the record saying, yes, the heart came out, I saw it, I put it back in. So that means Benedetta passes the first interrogation, the first investigation, but there will be another, because obviously we said that women of ill repute is a phrase that gets used. Why does she pass the first test but a second one is launched? Michelle, what does she do? Benedetta, that's more provocative or claim to do?

[Michelle Sauer]

Benedetta dies. But then she comes back to life.

[Greg Jenner]

Whoa, whoa.

[Michelle Sauer]

So 1621, she, you know, she's dead. And then Father Paulo Ricordate commanded her in a loud voice to arise, and she did.

[Greg Jenner]

That's all it needs, right? That's all you need. You just need someone, that's all. You just need a man to say, get up, come on, sort it out.

And you're Like. But not dead anymore.

Not dead. Let's talk about the second investigation, because the. This time around, Sophie, it's not the local authorities who are sort of showing up to have an interrogation. The Pope has sent someone.

The Pope?

Mr. Pope himself. He sent a nuncio, which is a official figure, a sort of a bunch of officials showing up in 1622. They're there for several months. They're outsiders. Right. They're not used to the community, they're not used to her. So they're a bit more interrogative. It doesn't go so well this time, Sophie. They're suspicious.

Yeah, I'd be suspicious. I feel like Bartolomeus sounds like a liability. I feel like she's adding little embellishments like, yeah, I saw the heart. I pushed it back in. It feels like Benedetta's got quite a lot of charisma. But I'm not sure Bartolomea commands quite the same amount of reverence, no questions asked, as her friend does. So I feel like she's possibly not going to be the weak link in questioning.

[Michelle Sauer]

Where she really started losing people was continuing to preach from the pulpit. This. It was understandable maybe the first few times, because she was reporting what Jesus had said in these visions. But continuing to do that wanders into dangerous territory. And who would inspire someone to continually act in such a manner contrary to God, but the devil. So the local community starts turning against her and suggests that her parents had been possessed by devils. And then all of this sort of comes to a head. When the nuncio comes to town, he is very suspicious of things like the heart exchange and the mystical marriage and especially stigmata.

[Greg Jenner]

And they find satanic signs and around the kind of the sort of the general locale of the nunnery. Michelle, what is the evidence gathered against Benedetta?

[Michelle Sauer]

The biggest sign of all of demonic, if not possession, association is that she didn't go vegan anymore. She started secretly eating meat. And in particular, she had a love of salami and mortadella. And, I mean, I can't blame her. Mortadella is delicious.

[Greg Jenner]

So, wow, the nun who loves salami. It's not how I thought she would be, Des, but.

So, Michelle, is this. I'm slightly worried where we're going next, but are we going next into sort of, you know, demonic territory of, you know, naughty things?

[Michelle Sauer]

Not quite. Instead, we end up with Benedetta having sex not with the devil, but with her best friend, Bartolomeo.

[Greg Jenner]

No.

What?

Sophie's back on board.

What? Those two good Friends?

[Michelle Sauer]

Yeah, they were just roommates.

[Greg Jenner]

The roommates. What?

More than that, Sophie? Benedetta is claiming that the angel Splendatello is making them do it.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Yeah, I've had that one as well. It's like. It's that, like there's someone watching. He's got, like, curly hair.

Uh. Oh, yeah.

Uh. Oh, wow.

So, Michelle, I think the question we have to ask at this point now is, you know, we can all have a laugh about these sort of things, but actually, what's quite interesting is there is a sort of moment in that testimony where Bartolome sort of says she was sort of made to lie on her back. And that brings up ideas perhaps of coercion, perhaps of one person having more power than the other. So is this a standard, you know, typical lesbian relationship between two consenting women, or do we have something more problematic here?

[Michelle Sauer]

I think that there. It is more problematic, but there's multiple levels of coercion, I think, going on here also. It's not just that Splendetello made them do it for his own benefit, but Benedetta claims that Splendetello really inhabits her body or takes over her body in certain ways, so that she herself is actually subject to coercion in a way to then make Bartolomea also go through with this.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it's definitely a problematic relationship, but it's also problematic for us because it comes to us through the official testimony of Nuncio Papal Legates, and it's all. It's slightly refracted through. So the. The phrasing that is used in the official interrogation is called the Immodest Act. So what is the outcome of this investigation, Michelle? The second investigation from the Pope's man.

[Michelle Sauer]

So the final investigative visit was in November of 1623. There's no more evidence of stigmata or of a mystical wedding ring. Benedetta is no longer seeing visions. Splendetello has left her. Benedetta agrees that she had been deceived by the devil and lived very obediently under a new abbess. We don't really hear from her again, although the convent records basically indicate that she died when she was 71 years old, that she had been ill for 18 days. But this diary also reveals one interesting fact. She had been imprisoned in solitary confinement for 35 years. So it appears that her recantation and her reformation to live the good life under a new abbess was for naught.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, Sophie, that's a bit of a vibe shift on the episode there, isn't it?

Yeah, it's so sad.

Sorry.

35 years.

Yeah. The nuance window. Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Sophie and I set down our needles and sit in silent contemplation for two minutes while Professor Michelle takes to the pulpit to preach something that we need to know about Benedetta Carlini. So my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away. Professor Michelle.

[Michelle Sauer]

I really wanted to talk a little bit about medieval lesbians. In the introduction to her book Immodest Acts about Benedetta Carlini, Judith C. Brown says had the material belonged to a later epoch, the sexual allegations against Benedetta would not have been all that rare. But what about medieval lesbians looking for medieval lesbians? One of the things about studying them is that it allows for participation in the creation of social and sexual histories and forefronts the female experience in a field that continues to be dominated by white straight men. And even the term homosexual has been co opted and used only to describe male same sex encounters. So it's good on the one hand that we have Benedetta Carlini, bad of course because of the situation, but good because the scant handful of documented lesbians are generally documented for being caught. Benedetta Carlini was on trial, oddly enough, mostly for preaching, and the immodest act came out. We can find medieval lesbians and joy in medieval lesbian activities in such places as mystic text where female saints call Jesus their mother, then suckle from his side as breastfeeding before crawling into the open vaginal shaped wound. One such woman was Catherine of Siena. She describes climbing Christ's body that has been clearly transformed into a feminized creation as he possesses her and presses her to his breast and the opening there. We know that the church and theologians were concerned about the possibilities of women being with other women in a sexual manner. Elred of Ravaux, who wrote a letter to his sister and anchoress, cautioned her against teaching young women because she would clearly be enraptured by them and want to kiss them. St. Augustine wrote a similar letter to his sister. So there are deep concerns about these women. Therefore we know that they exist, that they're out there. And we really need to keep looking more completely into this history so that we don't foreclose the possibilities of a long history of women who loved other women.

[Greg Jenner]

There's such a scant amount of evidence and testimony, but when it does pop up, it's really visceral. And like those images of like licking Jesus heart. It's very intense and very lesbian. I think that, you know, I am gonna go to a lesbian bar tonight and I am gonna ask the gathered congregation if anyone's ever asked to lick their heart, which I think is probably quite likely given East London.

Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Professor Michelle Listener. If after today's episode you want more juka in your ears, check out our episodes on Atlantis, Ramses, the Great Ashanti Garner and the Chevalier de St. Georges. What about catalogue? And if you've enjoyed hearing about the naughty nun, why not listen to our episode on the profane popes of the early medieval papacy? Those guys were. They were extra, let's just put it that way. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, Share the show with your friends. Subscribe. So you're dead to me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the magnificent Professor Michelle Sauer from the University of North Dakota. Thank you, Michelle.

[Michelle Sauer]

Thank you. It was awesome.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the sublime Sophie Duker. Thank you, Sophie.

Bless you, Greg. Bless you, Michelle.

Thank you very much. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we investigate more historical friendships in inverted commas. But for now I'm off to go and offer Satan some of my salami.

[Glenn Patterson]

Bye.

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In 1984, an IRA bomb planted under a bath in Brighton's Grand Hotel came close to killing Margaret Thatcher and her Cabinet. It was the biggest direct assault on a British government since the gunpowder plot. From BBC Radio 4, I'm Glenn Patterson and in the Brighton Bomb, I tell the story of the deadly attack, unraveling the threads that brought all involved, often by heartbreaking chants, to that place and time. 2:54am on the morning of the 12th of October, and I reveal how the police only just averted a follow up bombing campaign aimed at England's beaches. To hear the Brighton Bomb and many other great history documentaries, search for the history podcast on BBC Sounds.

[Glenn Patterson]

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