Catherine de’ Medici (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: “You’re Dead to Me” – Episode on Catherine de’ Medici

Title: Catherine de’ Medici (Radio Edit)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests:

• History Corner: Dr. Estelle Perronc, Associate Professor in Early Modern History, Northeastern University, London
• Comedy Corner: Shapirak Khosandi (“Chappie”), Award-Winning Comedian and Author
  Release Date: May 23, 2025

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of You’re Dead to Me, Greg Jenner delves into the life of the enigmatic French Queen, Catherine de’ Medici. Joined by historian Dr. Estelle Perronc and comedian Shapirak Khosandi (“Chappie”), the trio explores Catherine’s intricate role in 16th-century France, blending scholarly insight with humor.

2. The Medici Legacy and Catherine’s Early Life (01:14 – 06:20)

Dr. Estelle Perronc begins by contextualizing Catherine’s origins within the powerful Medici family of Florence:

“The Medici family were bankers and they rose to power and prominence.” ([04:25])

Catherine was born Caterina de Medici to Lorenzo II de Medici, who was controversially granted the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle, Pope Clement VII. Despite their wealth, the Medici faced significant struggles, including territorial conflicts and familial rivalries.

Tragedy struck early in Catherine’s life. Both her parents died when she was an infant, leaving her orphaned and heir to immense wealth. Her grandmother briefly took her in before also passing away, leaving Catherine under the protection and education of her great-uncle, Pope Clement VII ([07:11]).

3. Marriage and Dynastic Responsibilities (06:20 – 12:21)

At the tender age of 14, Catherine was married to Henri de Bourbon, a union orchestrated by the Pope to secure political alliances. Shapirak, humorously reflects on the young marriage:

“14 is very young. Just psychologically and developmentally at the time.” ([08:24])

Despite the arranged nature of her marriage, Catherine and Henri produced a large family, ultimately having 10 children, seven of whom survived to adulthood. These offspring would play pivotal roles in European dynastic politics:

“The sons are Francois, Charles, Henri, Hercule... the daughters are Elizabeth, Claude, and Margaret.” ([11:34])

In 1547, the death of Henri’s father elevated Henri to the throne of France, making Catherine the Queen of France. However, her influence during Henri’s reign was limited, with Diane de Poitiers, Henri’s tutor and lover, dominating court affairs.

4. Navigating Court Politics: The Guise and Bourbon Families (12:21 – 16:24)

Upon Henri’s death in 1559, their son Francois II ascended the throne but died prematurely in 1560, leading to their 15-year-old son, Charles IX, becoming King. Catherine began to wield more influence, especially after navigating the complexities of court factions.

Two prominent families vied for power:

• The Guise Family: Strongly Catholic and closely allied with Mary, Queen of Scots.
• The Bourbon Family: Protestant leaders advocating for Huguenot rights.

The tension between these factions set the stage for the French Wars of Religion, a series of prolonged conflicts that devastated France and led to the deaths of millions.

5. The French Wars of Religion (16:24 – 23:08)

Catherine’s tenure as a de facto ruler was marked by incessant religious strife. Dr. Perronc explains:

“They kill over 2 million people.” ([18:08])

Key events include:

• Massacre at Vassy (1562): The outbreak of violence between Catholics and Huguenots.
• St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre (1572): A pivotal and horrific event where thousands of Protestants were killed in Paris and beyond.

Despite personal efforts to mediate, such as opening her home to protect Protestant figures like Sir Francis Walsingham, Catherine was often blamed for instigating the massacres. The historian emphasizes:

“When you look at French books, it's always that Catherine, the Medici's fault.” ([26:25])

6. Catherine’s Political Maneuvering and Legacy (23:08 – 26:25)

Catherine continued to navigate the treacherous waters of French politics even as her sons ascended to power. Her influence peaked during the reign of her youngest surviving son, Henry III, whom she supported amidst ongoing religious conflicts.

However, the constant turmoil weakened the Valois dynasty, leading to Catherine’s declining health and eventual death in January 1589. Shortly after, Henry III was assassinated, marking the end of Valois rule and the rise of the Bourbon dynasty with Henry of Navarre (later Henry IV), who married Catherine’s daughter, Margaret.

7. Nuance Window: Reassessing Catherine’s Reputation (26:25 – 27:35)

In the Nuance Window, Dr. Perronc challenges the traditional vilification of Catherine de’ Medici:

“Catherine is not the dark queen... She truly loved her children and grandchildren.” ([26:25])

She emphasizes that much of Catherine’s negative legacy stems from later French xenophobia against Italians. Dr. Perronc highlights her genuine efforts to safeguard her family and France, countering myths of her being the mastermind behind the religious wars and attributing her actions to the harsh realities of her time.

8. Conclusion: Reflecting on Catherine’s Complex Legacy (27:35 – End)

Greg Jenner and Chappie close the episode by acknowledging the multifaceted nature of Catherine’s life—her power, her losses, and her relentless political maneuvers. They commend Dr. Perronc for shedding light on a more compassionate and nuanced portrayal of Catherine.

“Clearly had massive attachment issues and everyone that was related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful.” ([25:29] Greg Jenner)

Dr. Perronc reiterates the importance of reevaluating historical figures beyond their villainous portrayals to understand their humanity and the complex contexts in which they operated.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Estelle Perronc: “Catherine is not the dark queen... She truly loved her children and grandchildren.” ([26:25])

• Greg Jenner: “She would like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love. They feel power is the only thing that will sate them.” ([25:24])

• Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi): “No, don’t. Don’t wish you were wrong, because I don't think she fell in love.” ([08:00])

---

Key Takeaways:

• Catherine de’ Medici was a central figure in 16th-century France, navigating through immense personal and political challenges.

• Her role in the French Wars of Religion is often misunderstood, with modern scholarship like Dr. Perronc’s work aiming to present a more balanced perspective.

• Catherine’s legacy is a testament to the complexities of wielding power in a tumultuous era, highlighting the interplay between personal loss, familial duty, and political strategy.

For those intrigued by Catherine’s story, You’re Dead to Me offers a blend of scholarly insight and engaging storytelling, making history both accessible and entertaining.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

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[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

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[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

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[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French Queen Catherine de Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's Associate professor in Early Modern History at Northeastern University, London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially Queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of the Incredible Blood Fire and the Story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici. It's Dr. Estelle Perronc. Welcome Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Katherine.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And in Comedy Corner she's an award winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's comedy roadshow. Have that news for your. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD Scatterbrain, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the Ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaperife or Sandy.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello. Thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Welcome.

[Greg Jenner]

When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment I thought I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I Am an expert and read my book Blood Fire and Gold, which is brilliant, but I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person.

[Greg Jenner]

We all went through that. Genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

That's brilliant.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Okay. We've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I don't think I can do Sharpie. I love your work, but I don't think I can be as funny as you.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

I'm sorry. Okay. All right.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, neither can I.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Do you know the name Catherine de Medici? She's quite famous from history, but I.

[Greg Jenner]

Thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de Medici and not de Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian. And there we go.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

She is Italian. Well, she is Italian. Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So what do you. This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in the Serpent Queen. Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother in law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Rain All About Mary Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilization 6. But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out? And what's it like to have a Pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning. You've heard of the Medici family, Chappie? Actually, the name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals, they didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So the Medici family were bankers and they rose to power and prominence.

[Greg Jenner]

Good people, morally sound.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

They became very wealthy, as you said, and they were given titles. So then it created lots of problems and, you know, rivalries. And Carton de Medici is going to born into that very important family, but also very scheming family.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. And Florence is their home.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Florence is their home. And they're going to become Dukes of Florence and Grand Duke of Tuscany.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So Catherine was born Catherina. So your question shappy about.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, born Caterina Caterina de Medici. Her father is Lorenzo II de Medici and he was given the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle, the Pope. But he didn't have the land. He had to fight the actual Duke.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm so sorry. So his uncle the Pope is giving.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Him a title that he wasn't his to give.

[Greg Jenner]

It's like stealing a dress from your neighbor and g. Giving it to your wife.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. And then saying, you now need to move into that house.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, you need to go and fight the neighbor.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But you have to put into context of Italian wars. So when I say, like, let's be fair to him and the Pope, it was contested.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Lorenzo ii, Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble who is royal. Is that right?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, she's royal Madeleine de la Tour Duverne.

[Greg Jenner]

So she's ok again, slowly.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Madeleine de la Tour d' Auvergne. To be fair, I love. I know. I love her name.

[Greg Jenner]

Such a beautiful language.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know, it's like I've said je t' aime to you, right. But Madeleine is from French blood, so she's a very important, raw woman.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So we can imagine that her childhood, Katarina's childhood, would be amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous. Not the case, Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Not the case at all. Unfortunately for Katarina, she lost both her parents. Her mother died. Honestly, we say fever, it's after giving birth. So she died of childbirth. She died 10 days later. And her father, who had to fight this Duke of Urbano, died of his wounds from the battle. So at three weeks old, she was an orphan, but also the heir of a very massive fortune and wealth. But what's tragic, I think, for Caterina is the fact that then she's going to be taken by her grandmother, but her grandmother is going to die the year after.

[Greg Jenner]

They're not a very robust family, are they?

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

No.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I mean, then she's going to be with her aunt. And again, she's going to die as well.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And the Pope, her great uncle, isn't it?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

The great uncle is going to make sure that she is protected and well educated.

[Greg Jenner]

What's his name?

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Pope Clement vii.

[Greg Jenner]

Uncle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Pope.

[Greg Jenner]

Uncle Clement.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's a life of turmoil and of great heartbreaks. She lost everyone she loved or could have loved, and she was massively a political pawn.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So how do you think the Pope, her uncle, Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman, she's 1112 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, you know what? I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence, self defense classes, but I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found. Is that. Am I right? So to marry her off, some bozo's found to marry her too? Oh, I wish I was wrong.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, don't. Don't wish you were wrong, because I don't think she fell in love. Okay, she's gonna have a wedding in Marseille, in Notre Dame de la Garde. This little girl who lost everyone.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

His name is Henri.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Right, Henri. Yeah.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. I'm not gonna honk my problematic marriage. Classic. Sorry. But I am gonna say 14 is very young. Just psychologically and developmentally at the time.

[Greg Jenner]

I understand. Between us and anyone listening, it's also the age my grandmother got married.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Okay, all right. We can. We can perhaps update the name, because she was Caterina de Medici and then she. But now she's Catherine.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, Catherine.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Okay, okay. No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. Okay, so we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope. Already a very dramatic episode of Married at first sight. But then the drama really ramps up because another woman enters the marriage. It's all very Lady Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane Diana de Poitiers.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Diane de Poitiers. Yes. So this woman is very important. She's a noble woman and she's a widow. She's gonna become the tutor of Henry, the young man. She's gonna teach him. She's supposed to teach him.

[Greg Jenner]

Is he a bit Macron?

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Well, she's totally Macron. 19 years older.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, 19 years old, totally Macron. And she's gonna teach him more than languages and classical studies. And she's going to become his lover.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She's queen in all but name.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And the problem, of course, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem, that Catherine is not conceiving a child. So she can't provide the air that is needed. And so that's the pressure as well.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Indeed, she's not conceiving. But what's going to be very interesting. So obviously they're going to try all the treatments possible for this, including like drinking donkey's urine. But what happened was Catherine heard all the rumors against her because she couldn't conceive so she goes to see the King, Francis, the first Francois premier, and she gives this speech where it shows you how intelligent she was. Am I saying that she's not genuine? No, I'm saying she's genuine. But you can be genuine and smart. All right, I understand. It's not good for you to have me as your daughter in law and because I love you, you know, I'm paraphrasing because I love you so much and respect you so much and you're like a father to me. I will accept whatever you want to do with me. I put my fate in your hands. And Francois, who had thought about the King of getting rid of her because now she's dauphine and she's not good enough, really. For Henry is thinking, wait a minute, this woman is very devoted to me, to my family. And he really liked her. They enjoy hunting together. They were riding together. She's someone who's very close to the King. And he told her, no, I'm not going to do that to you. But the problem, he's going to tell her, but we have a problem. Catherine, I need you to give me. Well, not him, but he needs an heir for his dynasty because it's a very important theme right in the 16th century, as we know, to have a full dynasty. And that's where for Diane, Diane is starting to be scared because right now she only has a little girl, young teenager, and she can fully control her. But what if we get a new wife? It's a new princess, she's more beautiful. Henry becomes in love with her. So then Diane is going to help Catherine. And that's why I want to tell you guys. She helps Catherine conceive.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Plot twist.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

As soon as Diane helped the couple, it worked.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And they have how many children?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

10.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

10.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Seven are going to become adults.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. So the 10 children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the 10 children, so seven survive. The sons are Francois, Charles, Henri, Hercule.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Who becomes Francois as well later.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And then the daughters are Elizabeth, Claude and Margaret. Yeah. Who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip II of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty. Chappie. 10 kids, 7 survive. But in 1547, King Francois I died. So the kind of the king who had sort of taken her under his wing and taught her to ride.

[Greg Jenner]

Another person on her side that died.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah, that's it. So but she is elevated. Her husband is now the King of France. So she is the Queen of France.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, but Diane is the queen in all but names.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Come on.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Is this where we find Catherine de Medici, queen consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

If I'm honest with you, I think she's really much on the back seat. Right. She's never shining during his reign. Towards the end. Yes. She's going to play a very important role.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Francoise, to the Duke of Guise's niece. And her name is famous to history. She's Mary Queen of Scots.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Her daughter in law is Mary Queen of Scots. Catherine.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, that's adorable.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. But we'll do Mary another day, different episode.

[Greg Jenner]

That blows my mind. That, like Queen Catherine and Mary Queen of Scots hung out.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Catherine is now learning about oratory. She's learning about politics. She's also learning about another o. The occult. Shappy. Have you ever heard of Nostradamus? Yes, Nostradamus was one of her advisors. No. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

My knowledge of history is so Swiss to cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah, he does feel very medieval.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

To be fair, I would have thought the same if I. Yeah. I didn't know.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

But he's. He's. He's banging around at the French court for some reason.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, just like, imagine that, wandering around. Oi. All right, let's try.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Just gonna have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Damus. Damus. Damus.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Nobby.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Nobby.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

In 1555, Nobby, Nostradamus prophesizes to his queen. He says, the young lion will overcome the old in a field of combat. In a single fight. He will pierce his eyes in a golden cage. Two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death. Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly Catherine also dreamed of it. So, supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her. Her husband's gonna die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery. Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. And then he wants revenge. So he does it again. And this time it goes through his eye.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. The lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain, and he.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He died.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

In 10 days, Henri, her husband, is dead. Which means Diane de Poitiers out.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes. That's the revenge.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Diane is out. And she sent a letter to Catherine to apologize for all the years of humiliations. Yes.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So Henri is dead, the King is dead. Long live the King. Her son is now king and Mary.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Stuart is Queen of France.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Right. So Mary Queen of Scots is now Queen of France. Francois is King of France, but he's only 15. Shappy. You've got teenage. You've got a teenage boy.

[Greg Jenner]

I've got a teenage boy who was very into politics.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Okay. How would he do at ruling the country?

[Greg Jenner]

I think at 15, he would build really interesting town centres.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So what level of power does the King have compared to the mother, Catherine de Medici, who's now really running the show?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, at that time, no, she's not yet very much running the show. And that's probably because of Mary Stuart's family, the Guises. So she has very powerful, very powerful uncles. The Guises.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So the Guise. G U I S E S. Yes, the Guises.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But Catherine is going to try. She's going to fight to remain an advisor to her son and he's going to accept this. But their relationship between her firstborn and her son, they're good. They're not very strong. He also really loved, I think, as the only husband that, you know, I can say that about Mary. He really loved Mary.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And so his allegiance is going to go towards his wife and her family. So Catherine here is not really gaining much power, but she's growing in terms of, like, she asked to be called Queen Mother of France, and that is a title that has never been given before. And that's a very important title because in the title you have Queen. I want to tell you that before Francis, I had his mother, she was mother of the King.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yes.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And you see the difference between Mother of the King and Queen Mother. And there's an importance, a title she gives herself, and that's going to have more and more importance in the years to come.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family. So that's Mary's uncles. That's the pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons, who make delicious biscuits.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He fondly.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

They're led by Antoine, King of Navarre, which is Spain or sort of near Spain. Navarre.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Navarre is a small territory between Spain and France and that has had such a huge diplomatic importance for centuries.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So Antoine and his brother Louis Cond. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They are. They're on opposite sides politically and religion wise, because The Bourbons are the Protestants.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And the Guises are Catholics.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Both of them have like princes of blood in them. It's very important because when you're a prince of blood, it means you have a right to the throne.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Then more bad news. Francois II suddenly becomes very unwell chappie. And Catherine, having seen her or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen.

[Greg Jenner]

Her big boy.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to one king and trying to prep the next one.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And he's only nine.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

He's nine years old. Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, well, they're quite sensible at that age.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Well, okay, so your 15 year old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would your nine. What would a nine year old do?

[Greg Jenner]

Ask his mummy.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Exactly.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

You sound like Catherine.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, I sound like a mother.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. Which son is this then?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's Charles. It's going to be Charles IX of France. He's totally, utterly under the control of his mother. And Catherine, she's become the matriarch of a family.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

We do now have the French wars of religion.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here, but they kill over 2 million people.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, over 30.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. Three decades. Sure. But millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Protestants and Huguenot. And Catherine's sort of reign, I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, she's ruling at that. She rules, yeah. She's in.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

We have to now put this into the context of the time. Right. So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially. And then there's a peace treaty and.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Then they start again.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And then they start again.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

They always start again. There's always a mean where. That's one thing that about Catherine, like her dark legend and even you see it in the Serpent Queen is like she's the one instigating those wars and she's not. It's not good for them to live in a realm where there's constant.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah, it's expensive, it's terrifying. You can't trust who's on your team.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Exactly.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

You don't want wars ever. But we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassy where the Huguenots, it's.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

The Guises who are going to kill the Huguenots for Worshipping Vassis is in their territory in Lorraine and on their way back to Joinville, they're going to see that the Huguenots are worshipping not outside of the town, but inside the town, and it's against the law and they decide to kill all of them.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orleans in 1563. There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Amboise, and then that treaty does not last at all. And this war continues until 1598.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So from 1562 to 1598, this is the political context.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

In the middle of Catherine's rule is horrifying wars between.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And her sons. Yeah. And her sons, they don't have peace.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific. The horrifying event, the key event, is called St. Bartholomew's Dame Massacre. Since 1572.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Catherine is often blamed for this.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Absolutely. So this massacre is the. She wants to bring peace to France and she's going to give her daughter, her third daughter, Margaret, to Henry of Navarre, who's a Protestant. And the wedding is going to happen in Paris and they're going to invite all the Protestants, So all Protestants and Catholics are in Paris to celebrate the wedding. And so far, so good. But the night of 23rd, 24th of August, 1572, isn't it 1572. Thank you, Greg. The Guises have an opportunity to avenge their father's death in 1563 because he'd been assassinated. He was assassinated in 1563 by Admiral de Coligny. He's going to ask for refuge to Catherine de Medici, who's going to grant it. But then what happened next is that the Guises have lots and lots of support. They even have their own private armies. And they start killing. It's the massacre of Protestants. Thousands and thousands. And it doesn't stop in Paris. It goes to Rouen, it goes to different cities, and Catherine is blamed for it. People said Catherine started it. Catherine is the one who organized it, who plotted it, when Catherine is the one who actually opened the doors of her house with Charles, her son, to save as many Protestants as possible, including Sir Francis Walsingham, the English ambassador of Elizabeth I.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

There's no one in the 16th century who is a nice person in power. Like, you have to be cruel, you.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Have to be ruthless.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

You have to be ruthless. So let's just.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

To survive.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah. 1574, King Charles dies, her son dies again. She's now onto her third son.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Another Henri.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Always a spare.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So you've got Henri he's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Shappy. Do you know why?

[Greg Jenner]

Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy?

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

No, weirdly, he was King of Poland for a bit. Oh, well, we all do. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm dressed as King of Poland. I've been King of Poland.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

It's like the Duke of Edinburgh award. So, Estelle, can you tell us about Henry the new new, new king of France?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Henry III of France. He was elected King of Poland, and when Charles died, he had to smuggle out of Poland to go back to the French crown, which was awful, because.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Can you imagine being ditched by your king?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, but. Exactly. No, but it was a massive diplomatic problem here because it was like, oh, my. Catherine was like, come back here. And he's like, they're not gonna be happy.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's, you know, still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed Francois, Duke of Alencon. But Francis Hercule sadly dies, age 29, in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands. Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She is the grandmother of Europe.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, she's the grandmother of the Infantas of Spain because she married her first daughter to Philip ii.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And they had two daughters.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? France and Spain are superpowers.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And then she has people in Lorraine, in Tuscany. She is the grandmother of Europe.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point. Not, like, elderly, but she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid-1880s or so?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, for her, it's very hard because in 1585, there's the eighth religious civil war that is triggered, obviously, by the death of her son, her last son also. You have to realize that now, you know, she's counting her kids. Oh, my God. And they're still Henry, but Henry and herself. So her favorite son are going to drift apart because Henry III is going to make a secret alliance with Elizabeth I, because he understands now that the Protestants don't want his crown. But the Guises and Mary Stuart want much power in Europe.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Right.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So he's going to make a secret alliance and Catherine is going to get closer to the Guises, wanting to preserve the Catholic faith, ultimately in France. And Henry III is going to commit a very horrible thing. He's going to order the murder of the Guises and Catherine de Meychi is going to know that that's the end. I think she really gets very ill at that time. So it's December 1588, she gets very ill and she has no way to recover because the country is in. Honestly, it's hell. France is hell at that point. And she dies on the 5th of January, 1589. And I'm so glad she didn't see her favorite son, the beautiful Henry, murdered. He's murdered a few months later in August 1589.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Assassinated.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

So she dies, age 69. France still ripped apart by religious war. Her son is murdered. And the question how does France cope without her stable? Well, stabilizing influence. But she's not managed to stabilize everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It ends. Because obviously, Henry dies in 1589 as well. It's the end of the Valois. And then you have Henri de Navarre with his wife, Margaret of Valois, who become king and Queen of France. That's the end of the Valois dynasty.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

It's a life and a half, isn't it, Chappie?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It is.

[Greg Jenner]

We've gone through there really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. Wouldn't you if you had all that money? Just sit somewhere quietly and chill.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Just breed puppies. Wow.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know.

[Greg Jenner]

But, you know, but the thing is with Catherine is she was so alone in the world.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Absolutely.

[Greg Jenner]

Clearly had massive attachment issues and everyone that was, like, related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful. Yeah, that's the only way. She would like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love. They feel power is the only thing that will sate them. And as we all know, that always leads to disaster.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, it does. It does.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Well, there we go.

[Greg Jenner]

So wise of me.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

That was very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye. The Nuance Window. Right, it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Shappy and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes. Tells us something we need to know about Catherine de Medici. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr. Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, I would like people to remember that Catherine is not the dark queen. All of this is absolutely untrue. The first thing is the fact how much she loved her children, but also her grandchildren. She wrote loving letters to her granddaughters, the Spanish granddaughters. She sent them gifts, Monkeys. And part of these gifts, I know, quite, quite unusual, not unusual for the time, if I'm really honest with you. She was not perfect. And, Greg, you were totally right to point it out. To be in power, you have to be ruthless. But she was not this horrible woman who poisoned anyone to get power. She was not this woman who created, you know, all the wars of religion. When you look at French books, it's always that Catherine, the Medici's fault. And I think it comes because of, honestly, xenophobia against Italians, unfortunately, that, you know, prevailed in the 17th and the 18th century. Gravely. So it is quite important to remember Catherine as someone who truly loved her children, her grandchildren, and we try to do our best for France and her family.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Thank you very much. Beautifully said, Shaki.

[Greg Jenner]

It was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed Estelle, your passion for her.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

It's been lovely. And you've made me like her, too.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I'm so happy.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

Okay, well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Chappie and listener. If you want to hear more of Chappie, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags to riches tale. Or, of course, the ancient Olympics episode, if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on. And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sound, so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the excellent Dr. Estelle Perronc from Northeastern University, London. Thank you, Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun, I must say.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And in Comedy Corner, we had the sensational Shapirak Khosandi. Thank you. Shapping.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you so much. It's been fab.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go invent the Giza biscuit to rival the Bourbons. Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, this is Marion Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds called Now you're asking. Each week we take real listeners questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets or the lack of anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain. Join Us why don't you search up now youw're Asking on BBC Sounds Tank and you.

[Chappie (Shapirak Khosandi)]

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