Cleopatra (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You're Dead to Me" – Episode: Cleopatra (Radio Edit)
Host: Greg Jenner
Release Date: September 20, 2024
Duration: Approximately 31 minutes

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Introduction

In this episode of "You're Dead to Me," Greg Jenner dives into the fascinating life and legacy of Cleopatra, one of history's most iconic figures. Joined by two expert guests, Dr. Shushma Malik, an Assistant Professor of Classics at the University of Cambridge, and award-winning comedian Tanya Moore, Greg navigates the blend of historical facts and comedic interpretations surrounding Cleopatra's life.

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Cleopatra’s Early Life and Family Dynamics

Greg begins by exploring Cleopatra's origins, detailing her birth around 69 or 70 BCE in Alexandria, Egypt, into the Ptolemaic dynasty. Dr. Malik explains, “Cleopatra was actually the seventh in the Ptolemaic line” (04:07). She was the eldest of five siblings, including two sisters, Berenice IV and Arsinoe IV, and two brothers, Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV.

Tanya Moore humorously comments on the multitude of Cleopatra’s siblings: “I feel like we should reach out to these ladies and let them know there are other names” (04:39).

Ascension to Power and Early Rule

Upon the death of her father, Ptolemy XII, Cleopatra ascends to the throne alongside her younger brother, Ptolemy XIII, marking the beginning of a tumultuous reign characterized by sibling rivalry and political intrigue. Dr. Malik notes, “They co-ruled as joint sibling-loving gods” (07:04). Despite their marriage as siblings, which Tanya finds absurd, Cleopatra attempts to marginalize Ptolemy XIII, leading to power struggles that eventually force her to flee to Syria.

Meeting Julius Caesar

The political landscape shifts dramatically with the arrival of Julius Caesar in Egypt following his victory over Pompey at the Battle of Pharsalus. Dr. Malik recounts Pompey's gruesome fate at Cleopatra's hands, “They just chop his head off and then they send it to Caesar in a basket” (09:47). Cleopatra ingeniously maneuvers to meet Caesar, famously depicted in popular culture as being smuggled into his presence hidden within a bed sheet or laundry bag. As Dr. Malik explains, “It's something like a laundry bag or a bed sheet” (11:12).

Tanya Moore jestingly remarks on Cleopatra’s cunning: “This is giving Shawshank Redemption, and I love that for all of us” (11:25).

Alliance and Aftermath with Caesar

Cleopatra's alliance with Caesar strengthens her position, leading to the reinstatement of both Ptolemy XIII and Cleopatra as joint rulers. They also have a son, Caesarion. Dr. Malik clarifies, “Caesar never officially accepted paternity, but everyone in Rome seems to know he had a child with Cleopatra” (13:03). However, Caesar's assassination in 44 BCE abruptly changes the political tides, forcing Cleopatra to return to Egypt under precarious circumstances.

Relationship with Mark Antony

The narrative shifts to Cleopatra's subsequent relationship with Mark Antony, a key member of the Second Triumvirate alongside Octavian and Marcus Lepidus. Dr. Malik describes Antony’s motivations: “He needed to know where the support of Egypt lay” (17:17). Cleopatra and Antony develop a passionate and politically strategic partnership, culminating in the birth of twins, Cleopatra Selene and Alexandra Helios.

Greg humorously highlights Antony's complicated personal life: “Mark Anthony, he's leading a cushy double life. He's got two women either side of the Mediterranean” (19:03).

The Battle of Actium and Cleopatra’s Demise

Tensions escalate between Antony and Octavian, leading to the pivotal Battle of Actium in 31 BCE. Dr. Malik succinctly states, “It is a disaster” (19:51), as Antony and Cleopatra face defeat. Following the battle, both Antony and Cleopatra commit suicide to avoid the humiliation of being paraded in Octavian’s triumph. Dr. Malik narrates the tragic end: “She sends a letter to Octavian, gets dressed, has her last meal, and then dies by her own hand” (24:06).

Tanya Moore expresses emotional turmoil over Cleopatra’s fate: “She's only 30” (25:26).

Nuance Window: Cleopatra’s Legacy

In the Nuance Window segment, Dr. Malik delves into Cleopatra's enduring legacy and the myths surrounding her. She emphasizes that Cleopatra’s portrayal as a femme fatale overshadows her true prowess as a shrewd and powerful ruler. Dr. Malik asserts, “We need to be quite aware that these stories are based on foundations that have to do with trying to understand how a woman like Cleopatra was able to wield the kind of power that she did” (26:00). She calls for a reevaluation of Cleopatra’s role, highlighting her strategic acumen and the challenges of navigating patriarchal societies.

Conclusion

Greg wraps up the episode by acknowledging the depth of Cleopatra's story and its relevance to understanding female power dynamics in history. He invites listeners to explore more episodes focused on other Egyptian pharaohs like Hatshepsut and Ramses the Great.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Shushma Malik on Cleopatra’s Birth: “Cleopatra was actually the seventh in the Ptolemaic line” (04:07).

• Tanya Moore on Cleopatra’s Siblings: “I feel like we should reach out to these ladies and let them know there are other names” (04:39).

• Dr. Malik on Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII’s Marriage: “They co-ruled as joint sibling-loving gods” (07:04).

• Tanya Moore on Cleopatra’s Cunning Entry to Caesar: “This is giving Shawshank Redemption, and I love that for all of us” (11:25).

• Dr. Malik on Caesarion’s Paternity: “Caesar never officially accepted paternity, but everyone in Rome seems to know he had a child with Cleopatra” (13:03).

• Greg Jenner on Antony’s Double Life: “Mark Anthony, he's leading a cushy double life. He's got two women either side of the Mediterranean” (19:03).

• Dr. Malik on the Battle of Actium: “It is a disaster” (19:51).

• Dr. Malik on Cleopatra’s Death: “She sends a letter to Octavian, gets dressed, has her last meal, and then dies by her own hand” (24:06).

• Tanya Moore on Cleopatra’s Age at Death: “She's only 30” (25:26).

• Dr. Malik on Cleopatra’s Legacy: “We need to be quite aware that these stories are based on foundations that have to do with trying to understand how a woman like Cleopatra was able to wield the kind of power that she did” (26:00).

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Final Thoughts

This episode skillfully balances historical analysis with comedic elements, making Cleopatra’s story both informative and entertaining. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of Cleopatra’s political maneuvers, personal relationships, and enduring legacy, all while enjoying the light-hearted banter between Greg, Dr. Malik, and Tanya.

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For more engaging historical tales, subscribe to "You're Dead to Me" on BBC Sounds and explore episodes on figures like Hatshepsut and Ramses the Great.

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Links & Resources

• Episode on Julius Caesar: Julius Kaiser to you and me.
• Upcoming Episodes:
  • Hatshepsut: Another fantastic queen.
  • Ramses the Great: What a guy he was.

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Listener Engagement

Listeners are encouraged to leave reviews, share the podcast with friends, and subscribe to ensure they never miss an episode. Special thanks are extended to guests Dr. Shushma Malik and Tanya Moore for their contributions.

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This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes, structured to provide a coherent and comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Tanya Moore]

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[Dr. Shushma Malik]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are taking a pleasure cruise down the Nile and plunging into the life and afterlife of one of history's most famous women. That's right, it's Cleopatra coming at you. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's Assistant professor of Classics and the Onassis Classics Fellow at Newnham College, University of Cambridge. She specializes in the politics of Imperial Rome and classical reception studies. And you may remember her from our episode on the Rise of Julius Caesar. Sorry, Julius Kaiser, it's Dr. Shushma Malik. Welcome back, Shushma.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Hi Greg. It's lovely to be here. Thanks for having me back again.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian, actor, writer and presenter. You might have seen her act in the Duchess on Netflix or Alma's Not Normal on the BBC. Or watched her being funny on Mock the Week. Mo Gilligan's Black, British and funny. She's got loads going on. It's the terrific Tanya Moore.

[Tanya Moore]

Welcome Tanya, you made me sound so great. Thanks, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

You are great. Thank you.

[Tanya Moore]

I was like, wait, is it me? Is it my turn?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, it's your turn. Welcome to the show, Tanya.

[Tanya Moore]

I'm excited.

[Greg Jenner]

What about Cleopatra, do you know? I mean, she's really famous as a name, but do you know any of her story?

[Tanya Moore]

I know that she's got a great name. I know that she's a she. You say Cleopatra and I and I think of the girl group. So that's where we are. Oh, do you know?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, nice reference.

[Tanya Moore]

We're coming at you. That's how I feel.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast. This is called the so what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener might know about today's subject. And I'm certain that everyone out there knows Cleopatra as a name. She's a global icon. You may be picturing a powerful, glamorous queen, famed for her beauty, her affairs with powerful Roman men. And when it comes to pop culture, there's hardly anything Cleopatra hasn't touched. She's in paintings, literature, operas, ballet, theatre productions, poetry through the centuries. Shakespeare with his play Antony in Cleopatra. And as Tanya mentioned, if you're of a certain age, Cleopatra coming at you. It's a fantastic pop song from the ban Cleopatra. But why is she one of the most famous people in history? And what else do we need to know about her? Let's find out. Where and when is Cleopatra born? And what's the kind of family situation?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

So Cleopatra was probably born around 69 or 70 BCE, probably in one of the palaces in Alexandria, which is in Egypt. Her father was Ptolemy xii and she was the eldest of five siblings. She had two sisters, Berenice IV and Arsinoe iv, and two brothers as well, Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy xiv. And even though we know her by the single name Cleopatra, she's actually the seventh in the Egyptian Ptolemaic dynasty.

[Tanya Moore]

I feel like we should reach out to these ladies and let them know there are other names. You know, I'm sure somebody wanted to be Sharon. Somebody wanted to be Sharon.

[Greg Jenner]

So Cleopatra herself is an Egyptian Pharaoh. And she may have an Egyptian mother, we don't know, but she's of a Greek dynasty. What's that about?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

So she comes from the Ptolemaic dynasty, who were Macedonian Greek. And Ptolemy was a commander of Alexander the Great, and so he was running Egypt before the death of Alexander. And by the time Cleopatra was born, we sort of see the Ptolemaic dynasty being in a period where the rulership of Egypt is becoming a little bit more difficult in relationship to Rome. And Rome, on the other hand, is quite powerful during this period, particularly in its Mediterranean setting. So it's expanded its empire.

[Greg Jenner]

And Tanya, what do you think Cleopatra's childhood was like? Are you thinking Disney Princess or are you thinking Game of Thrones? Serious political violence.

[Tanya Moore]

I feel like it's Game of Thrones. Maybe it starts as Disney Princess because she's the first girl. First born, you said? Shushma.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Eldest girl. Yes. Yeah.

[Tanya Moore]

So the first born always starts out in a Disney phase. So she came and she was doing Disney and then she got a sister and her sister's name isn't Cleopatra. Then she got angry Game of Thrones done. That's how it goes.

[Greg Jenner]

Good family psychoanalysis there, Shushma. I think Tanya's right in the Game of Thrones vibes quite quickly supplanting the Disney vibes, because it's quite a difficult childhood really, isn't it?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

She was probably raised in Alexandria until she was about 11 years old, we think, and she was well educated in what we might call Greek high culture. We think she spoke probably somewhere around nine languages.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

She was, though, part of a court that had plenty of intrigue in it. In 58 BCE, for example, her father, Ptolemy XII left Alexandria for Rome, claiming that he had been exiled her sister, or probably half sister, depending on of course, who her mother is. Berenice IV was named Queen and she co ruled with another Cleopatra, a different Cleopatra. Good.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Okay.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yes. Ptolemy returned in about 55 BCE and had his daughter Berenice IV executed.

[Tanya Moore]

Oh, wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So Cleopatra's half sister has already been murdered by her dad.

[Tanya Moore]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's a tricky childhood. How does Cleopatra end up as the Queen of Egypt?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Ptolemy xii, when he died, he leaves joint rulership to Cleopatra on the one hand as the eldest, but also his son Ptolemy xiii. So they co rule. And we actually have an inscription from around 52 BCE where Cleopatra VII and her brother Ptolemy XIII are referred to as the new sibling loving gods.

[Tanya Moore]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

It gets a little bit odder because they're married, Tanya.

[Tanya Moore]

Huh?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Tanya Moore]

Wait, hold on. They're siblings and they're married?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Tanya Moore]

And they're king and queen?

[Greg Jenner]

Yep.

[Tanya Moore]

Do they have babies?

[Greg Jenner]

No, thankfully. And ptolemy's probably like 11.

[Tanya Moore]

Huh? What? So sorry, hold on.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, a lot of klaxons are going off right now.

[Tanya Moore]

Yeah, my head's. Hold on a minute. So how old is she at this point? Marrying the 11 year old.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

17 or 18. Yep. Somewhere around there.

[Tanya Moore]

This is how disrespectful men have continued to be to women. Because at 18 she could never rule it alone. She had to have a man next to her, even if the man didn't know how to go toilet alone yet.

[Greg Jenner]

Cleopatra sort of agrees for the first couple of years or so she just sort of removes him from all the records.

[Tanya Moore]

Good girl.

[Greg Jenner]

He's not keen on being pushed into the background, Tanya. And he sort of asserts his power I guess when he's about 12 or 13 maybe. Sushma. And suddenly he's back in the public record and this time his name's going first.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yes, that's right. So this happens in somewhere around 50 BCE, but in around 49 or 48 BCE, Cleopatra and her sister Arsinoe leave Alexandria to raise an army and get the throne back essentially, or assert their dominance. They're not particularly successful though and they have to flee to Syria. That doesn't last for long either. So in September, we think around there. 58 BCE, the Roman statesman Pompey ARR arrived in Egypt because he'd been beaten by his rival in Rome, Julius Caesar at the Battle of Pharsalus. And Julius Kaiser. Julius Kaiser, yeah, exactly. Part of the Roman civil war context. Pompeius Magnus if we will.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

His full name as well. Is hoping to find some allies in Egypt and instead actually the opposite happens and he gets his head chopped off by allies of Ptolemy XIII because they think this will work very well with Julius Caesar.

[Tanya Moore]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So they just chop his head off and then they send it to Caesar in a basket.

[Tanya Moore]

What a lovely hamper.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. How do you think Julius Caesar takes this? Do you think he's happy?

[Tanya Moore]

Of course he is. He doesn't have to. He's won the war.

[Greg Jenner]

You think he's happy to get the head in the hamper? He's furious, Tanya. He is outraged, he's appalled. I mean, shushma. Why is he angry?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

The point is a Roman citizen has been killed by the Egyptians rather than doing what they should have done, which is sending him back, back to Caesar for punishment.

[Tanya Moore]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

So Julius Caesar, he wades in, he shows up in Egypt to come in, adjudicate. I mean Cleopatra, Ptolemy xiii. I'm gonna sort this out. And this is where we get a really fun story. Cleopatra needs to figure out a way of getting face to face with Caesar. She knows she needs to convince him, Tanya. But she can't get into her old palace cause she's in Syria and if she Goes to the palace, she'll be arrested and killed. So how is she gonna sneak in to meet Caesar?

[Tanya Moore]

She must know a back door for her own palace. You know, when there's that one window that isn't locked, but nobody knows unless you know the house that that one window isn't locked. Find the window, babes. Stop being weird.

[Greg Jenner]

Shushma. I mean, Hollywood will tell us that she rolls out of a carpet like she's rolled up in a carpet and then unfurled in the carpet. Now, the Latin or the Greek perhaps doesn't say carpet. Bedsheets, bedding, laundry bag. What are we going with?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yeah, something like a laundry bag or a bed sheet. So something where you would have to take it out and it would have to be cleaned and then comes back in. So it's in a way that people wouldn't be immediately suspectful of.

[Tanya Moore]

This is giving Shawshank redemption, and I love that for all of us. I love this for all of us. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And she sort of bursts out and goes, ta da. Hello, I'm Cleopatra. Nice to meet you. He's 52 years old. She's 19 years old. Oh, he's sort of top dog. She wants to be top dog. Oh, there's gonna be some chemistry, possibly. Shushma.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Oh, yeah. So the idea is that she seduces him. So before antiquity, what is happening in history? That's part of the way that political alliances are made in Antiquity and beyond as well. Caesar, though, then declares that he's going to enforce Ptolemy XII's will, saying they should rule together, and he reinstates Ptolem XIII and Cleopatra as joint rulers.

[Tanya Moore]

What?

[Greg Jenner]

So Julius Caesar's plan to solve this civil war between two siblings who hate each other is to just get on with it?

[Tanya Moore]

Just co rule after being seduced?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So Ptolemy's furious. Cleopatra and Ptolemy have to sort of share. And you're not gonna be shocked to learn here, Tanya, that Ptolemy orders his forces to attack Caesar, so his army now goes to war against Caesar's army.

[Tanya Moore]

Yep.

[Greg Jenner]

Caesar is trapped in the palace. There's a naval battle. It's Caesar versus Ptolemy. Ptolemy loses. He tries to escape by jumping into the Nile to swim away, and he drowns in his armor. So Ptolemy 13th. He's dead. So he's dead at 15. Ptolemy's out. He's gone.

[Tanya Moore]

That's a pretty intense life. 15 years.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Tanya Moore]

That is intense.

[Greg Jenner]

Cleopatra has one remaining brother left. Ptolemy xiv. He's a child. What do you think she does to him? Tanya?

[Tanya Moore]

I'm gonna say off with his head.

[Greg Jenner]

It's the other way. She marries him.

[Tanya Moore]

What is happening?

[Greg Jenner]

But exactly at the same time, she's now hooking up with Julius Caesar, who of course is married.

[Tanya Moore]

Of course he is.

[Greg Jenner]

He's 53 years old, he's got a wife back in Rome, but he's now having a lovely time on holiday with Cleopatra and they get pregnant, they have a baby. I mean, the baby's called Ptolemy, obviously, but the baby has a nickname and the nickname is Caesarean, which means mini Caesar. Is this a scandal for Caesar?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

It's not a huge scandal because he never really officially accepted paternity. So although everyone in Rome seems to know that he's had a child with Cleopatra. So we have a letter, for example, from Cicero to his friend Atticus that suggests that Caesarion was widely accepted to be Caesar's child. Caesar had actually left Egypt by the time Caesarion was born and probably only first met him in about 46 BCE when Cleopatra traveled to Rome along with her husband of the time, Ptolemy xiv.

[Tanya Moore]

Aye aye aye. So she needed two child seats.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

The Senate thankfully did recognize Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIV as legitimate rulers of Rome, of Egypt and also friends to Rome as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Is Cleopatra popular in Rome?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Cleopatra has come with her husband, which would be, it would be much more awkward if she hadn't, let's put it that way. To be honest, it's difficult to know what the long term repercussions would have been because actually we're heading now into 44 BCE, the IDEs of March and the death of Julius Caesar. That Roman political assassination in 44 puts a fairly swift end to this slightly awkward dynamic in any case.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. I mean, caesar is stabbed 23 times. Something like that.

[Tanya Moore]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So Cleopatra, she has to do a runner from Rome because her boyfriend's just been murdered. So she runs back to Egypt and within a couple of months Ptolemy XIV brusband, he's dead too. Shushma. In suspicious circumstances, question mark.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Oh yes, that's right. Our Roman historians do love a suspicious circumstance when it comes to women and their husbands. So one of our historians, Josephus, who is a historian of the mid 1st century CE, so about 100 years or so later than these events are happening, he says that Cleopatra poisoned her husband. But this really is a very familiar accusation, so we need to read it with that in mind as well. But Cleopatra did make her son Caesarion a co ruler at this point. This is also about her own protection because despite everything she's done, the reason why she, you know, probably married Ptolemy XIV is. It is very difficult for a woman to rule alone, quite simply, in antiquity. So making her infant son a co ruler sets her up as a kind of regent figure.

[Greg Jenner]

She's like 25 at this point. She's not old.

[Tanya Moore]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

She's really a young woman.

[Tanya Moore]

She's only 25. That's a lot for, like, mid to late 20s. Mid to late 20s. Now they're just trying to figure out how to wear their eyebrows. Do you know what I mean? It's very different energy. She's done a lot of. A lot of work. Do you know, we started off a bit rocky. We were chopping off people's heads and marrying children. But now we're locked in. The path is clear.

[Greg Jenner]

She's mature.

[Tanya Moore]

I love this.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, there's the legacy of the glamour. I mean, Cleopatra is renowned through history for her glamour. Cleopatra later wins a bet with her future Roman boyfriend, Mark Antony. The bet is who can host the most expensive meal. Do you want to guess what Cleopatra eats? That is so pricey.

[Tanya Moore]

Another sibling. I mean, at this point.

[Greg Jenner]

The story goes, she has a pearl earring that is priceless and she dissolves it in a glass of wine. She glugs it down, wins the bet. And we've mentioned Mark Anthony, so I guess we should do this romance now. Come on. How are they hooking up? Who is contacting who? What's the opening line?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Mark Anthony is a Roman politician in this period, and he's also very famous for being a particular, particularly effective military commander. And in the aftermath of Caesar's death, he's one of the three men who share power in Rome. This is a relationship known as the Triumvirate. And those three men are Octavian, who is the adopted son of Julius Caesar, and another man named Marcus Lepidus, who is the least famous, I suppose, of the people.

[Greg Jenner]

No one cares about him.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

And Octavian, of course, is the one who's going to go on and become Augustus the first emperor. So, spoiler alert. Sorry. Anthony needed to know basically where the support of Egypt lay and whether he could count on it. And she also wanted to impress him because of ongoing Roman protection. So according to Plutarch, she traveled by pleasure boat dressed up to evoke Aphrodite, the goddess. And when Anthony invited her to dinner, she refused, instead requesting that he should join her.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, power move.

[Tanya Moore]

Oh, Cleo, I love this. It's giving. He went down on one knee and she was like, no, get up. And she went down on one knee. I love that.

[Greg Jenner]

But we get a sense Here there's passion. This is not a kind of boring relationship of necessity. And what do they do in their free time? How are they hanging out?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

So again, this is something that Hollywood depictions of Anthony and Cleopatra, of course, really like to take hold of and run with the idea that they were genuinely in love. So they spend a lot of time together in Alexandria enjoying things like plays and music, dance as well, philosophy, hunting. They also have twins, Cleopatra Selene and Alexandra Helios in 40 BCE.

[Greg Jenner]

So Cellini means moon and Helios means sun, right?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yes.

[Tanya Moore]

That's so nice. No more Cleopatras. We like that as well.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Well, Cleopatra, Selene.

[Tanya Moore]

Oh, damn it.

[Greg Jenner]

Don't break with the brand, Tanya. Come on.

[Tanya Moore]

Sorry, sorry.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so they've got twin kids. So they've got twins, a girl and the boy.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Which is good for dynastic aspects to have not only Cesarian but also the twins as well.

[Greg Jenner]

And also Mark Anthony. He's got himself in some hot water cause he's married to Octavian's sister. He's married to the sister of his, sort of the guy who he needs to keep on side. But he's also having a two timing relationship with Cleopatra.

[Tanya Moore]

Cleo doesn't mind stealing people's men.

[Greg Jenner]

She's out of border. And then Anthony's off, off to have some wars with the Parthians in I guess what we'd call Iran now, Persia, that kind of world. It's a disaster, right? Shushma.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

It is a disaster.

[Greg Jenner]

But it's okay because he runs home to Alexandria and they have another child with Cleopatra. And they call this one Tanya Cleopatra the 57th. They call it Ptolemy.

[Tanya Moore]

Oh, why do I keep getting this wrong? What am I not checking into?

[Greg Jenner]

They call it Ptolemy Philadelphus. So like his granddad, his great granddad. So another Ptolemy. So that's five Ptolemies in one episode. A new record for us. Hooray for us. So Mark Antony, he's leading a cushy double life. He's got two women either side of the Mediterranean. Cleopatra in Egypt, Octavia back in Rome. He's married to his buddy's sister. It's very awkward and tense. He's cheating on her. He's got two sets of kids either side of the Mediterranean. He's making enemies back in Rome. And I'm surprised, Sushma, because Cleopatra up to this point is super savvy, super smart in playing the game and knowing how to, you know, keep everyone on the side. But here she's tied herself to Mark Anthony who is losing all his support back in Rome. This is gonna go wrong, right?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yes. I guess the important thing, though, is that Anthony and Cleopatra try and make it seem like things are going well. Mark Anthony has a triumphal parade and orchestrate an elaborate ceremony that is tied to this new sort of dynastic element with the children. This is called the Donations of Alexandria. So basically what it means is that Cleopatra was declared the Queen of Kings. Her status is put in relation to her son Caesarion, in particular, Caesarion, who's now about 13 years old, is declared as joint ruler and her other children receive titles and territories. But there are still these growing tensions between Anthony and Octavian. And actually our sources tend to blame these on Cleopatra. In part, she has seduced Anthony and she has caused him to forget his Roman values. He's a Roman citizen, he should know better and so forth. So this is the root of a lot of the sort of negative stories we hear about Cleopatra. By about 33, end of 33 BCE, the triumvirate was pretty much over and Anthony was politically exiled now away from Rome. And that's quite important because Octavian is in Rome, he's able to influence from the centre, whereas Antony is in Alexandria. And that's a very big part of the political rhetoric that Octav. Octavian can use to turn essentially the Roman people off of Anthony and make them loyal to him.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And now it's gonna go really rather wrong because Octavian is like, you're gonna be married to my sister. And Mark Anthony's like, oh, sorry, don't worry, I'll sort it, I'll divorce her. And he's like, no, that's not what I was looking for.

[Tanya Moore]

Yeah, that wasn't the angle.

[Greg Jenner]

No. So he dumps the sister, shacks up with Cleopatra, they go on a lovely tour of Greece and go and see the sight. And Octavian is like, fine, let's go to war then. So now Rome is at war with Egypt and we get the very famous battle in history called the Battle of Actium, which sounds like a yogurt that's good for digestion, but it's. But it's not. Actium is a big naval battle and it just goes really wrong. Shushma. It goes wrong for Mark Antony and Cleopatra. The Romans are coming for them. It's endgame now. And obviously Shakespeare does this very famously. But how does this famous love story end? Tragically.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yeah. So I'm a bit concerned because Tanya looks like she's a little bit traumatized.

[Tanya Moore]

Yeah, I'm emotional. We've been on a journey, guys. We've been on a journey. She started out as a princess. She ended up being a warrior. Now she's gonna die a princess. That's emotional.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Oh, well, I'm sorry. But in about. In about 30 BCE so just after the battle of Actium, Octavian decided that he was going to attack Egypt directly. So even though Anthony was sort of ready to counter this and was planning something quite ambitious, most of Cleopatra's ships really surrendered. Cleopatra went to her mausoleum and sealed herself inside. And again, our sources for these things are quite a lot later, but Plutarch and Cassius Dio, who were both writing quite a long time after these events happened, they report that she told her attendants to tell Anthony that she was dead. And this report prompted Antony to stab himself.

[Greg Jenner]

It obviously goes very sadly because Antony doesn't die instantly. He regains consciousness. Cleopatra has him brought into the mausoleum to die by her side. She stays in the tomb grieving for a week. Octavian shows up, and they drag her out through a window and take her prisoner. What happens now for Cleopatra?

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Cleopatra is allowed to sort of oversee Antony's funeral arrangements, but she also falls ill. Octavian did say that Cleopatra would let her live, but that would mean, of course, going to Rome as a prisoner of war, which would mean going as part of a triumph, which is a very, very humiliating process, parading her as a prisoner of war, and particularly, you know, a royal prisoner of war as well. So she goes back to the palace, sends a letter to Octavian. We're told she. She has a bath, she gets dressed, she eats her last meal, and then she locks herself away with two attendants, and she dies by her own hand. And her attendants then make sure that she's properly laid out for when she's found. And Octavian then orders her to be interred in her mausoleum with Anthony.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I mean, they're attendants also in their own life as well, so it's very sad. So Mark Anthony has died by suicide. Cleopatra has died by suicide, and so have her attendant. It's a tragic end to the story. It's a lot to take in, Tanya.

[Tanya Moore]

And she's only 30.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Yeah, about 40. Just coming up to 40.

[Tanya Moore]

Okay. Well, I couldn't even bring mass to the podcast. Sorry.

[Greg Jenner]

For many historians, we would classify this as the end of dynastic Egyptian history. 3,000 years of pharaohs, and Cleopatra's the last. The nuance window. It's time now for the nuance window. This is where Tanya and I let Professor Shushma talk for two Uninterrupted minutes about something we need to know. So when you're ready, give the nuance window, please.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

So one of the most fascinating things I think about Cleopatra is her legacy. The idea of Cleopatra in the myth that she has become, the idea of this femme fatale, seductress. Her name becomes synonymous with figures from history like Mata Hari, or famous women who were seen as double crossers and temptresses and seducers. And we really need to be quite aware that these stories are based on foundations that have to do with trying to understand how a woman like Cleopatra was able to wield the kind of power that she did. She does have, of course, the roots through marriage with different members of the Ptolemies and then also ruling as a regent for her son. But she really was quite extraordinary in the kind of power and the kind of role in Mediterranean history that she was able to wield. And when our sources are trying to make sense of this, they often want to figure this woman as being something extraordinary and superhuman. And that really has made its way into the kinds of myth that we tell about her and the kinds of ways that we conceptualize female power in male dominated scenarios. We're used to understanding Rome as only inhabited by very powerful men. And here we have this very powerful, powerful woman. So part of the way that I think when we look at a film like Liz Taylor's Cleopatra or any of the representations that we have, we just need to think about how this woman would have had a very difficult life, was in a position of considerable power, but was trying, probably, it seems, to do what was best for Egypt. And again, possibly as someone who was part of the Egyptian culture and heritage, not only through being a queen of that region, but possibly a from people in those regions as well. So this is really an important story about how we understand women in power in patriarchal societies.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much, Sushma. That's fascinating. Tanya, you started coming in not knowing anything about Cleopatra. Where do you stand on her now?

[Tanya Moore]

I feel like she's my sister, actually. No. Because I might die. She's my neighbor.

[Greg Jenner]

Very careful being Cleopatra's sister. Oh, thank you so much, Tanya. And thank you, Shushma as well. And listener, if after today's episode you want more from Shushma, you can check out our episode on the rise of Julius Kaiser. Julius Caesar to you and me. And for more Egyptian pharaohs, we've got episodes on Hatshepsut, another fantastic queen. And of course, Ramses the Great. What a guy he was. And remember if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with friends make sure to subscribe to youo Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. All that's left for me to say is a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the amazing Sushma Malik from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Sushma.

[Dr. Shushma Malik]

Thanks so much, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we have the truly terrific Tanya Moore. Thank you, Tanya.

[Tanya Moore]

Thank you, thank you all.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we unroll another historical carpet to see what falls out. But for now, I'm off to go and marry my brother and then maybe poison him. Sorry, Seb. Bye.

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