You’re Dead to Me: Early Medieval Papacy (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You’re Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Prof. Brett Whalen (historian, UNC Chapel Hill), Alison Spittle (comedian)
Original Air Date: October 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the Early Medieval Papacy―specifically the chaotic “Papal Dark Ages” of the 9th to 11th centuries, an era of political intrigue, scandal, and rapid-fire papal turnover. Host Greg Jenner guides comedian Alison Spittle and expert Prof. Brett Whalen through unforgettable stories, most notoriously the ghoulish “Cadaver Synod.” The conversation blends historical nuance and comic commentary, making the tumultuous past vivid and relatable.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: What Was the Early Medieval Papacy?

[01:10–04:40]

• Greg introduces the period when the Catholic Church’s leadership in Rome fell into chaos, a time called the “Papal Dark Ages.”
• Popes were the Bishops of Rome, eventually styled as "Supreme Pontiff."
• The number of Popes? According to the Vatican, just 266—not the thousands Alison joked about ([04:49]).
• Prof. Whalen explains that while many bishops were called “Papa” (father/pontiff), only the Bishop of Rome became “the Pope” over time ([05:13]).

“Four or 500 years after the time of St. Peter, you start to see the title of pope being reserved for not all bishops, but just the bishop of Rome.”
—Prof. Brett Whalen ([06:45])

2. Why Rome?

[06:45–07:19]

• The papacy is based in Rome because of its centrality in the Roman Empire and the tradition that both St. Peter and Paul were martyred there ([06:59]).

3. Descent into the Papal Dark Ages

[07:19–08:22]

• Greg and Brett describe the “Book of Popes,” a medieval chronicle, stopping after the 9th century—a sign of the system’s break down.
• Alison likens the forgotten popes to “the middle Sugarbabes” ([07:57]).

4. The Notorious Cadaver Synod

[08:22–13:06]

• Pope Formosus: Once a successful bishop, eventually Pope, caught in deadly Roman power struggles ([08:51]).
• After Formosus’s death, his successor Stephen VI held a posthumous trial―literally exhuming Formosus’s corpse in 897 to stand trial for alleged crimes.
• The scene is described as grotesque and comic:

“Formosus’s rotting body… is dressed up in the full papal regalia. He’s propped up on the throne, and his body is put on trial. Pope Stephen VI is there, leveling the charges against him… Supposedly, there was a deacon off to the side or behind him, acting like a ventriloquist.”
—Prof. Brett Whalen ([11:07])

• Alison’s comic riff: “Now, how does the defendant plead? Dead, you, Honor. Dead.” ([11:31])
• Punishments: all Formosus’s acts as pope were nullified, his regalia stripped, three blessing fingers snapped off, and he was reburied in a commoner’s grave. Later his body was fished from the Tiber after an attempted cover-up ([12:09]–[13:06]).

5. The Fallout & Runaway Papal Turnover

[13:06–18:21]

• Stephen VI’s fate: he’s deposed, demoted, and eventually strangled ([15:26]).
• A revolving door of short-lived popes (Romanus, Theodore II, and others) follows.
• Within just eight years (896–904), nine popes come and go—depicted with dark humor as “caretaker popes” ([18:01]).

6. Roman Noble Families: The Papal ‘Mafia’

[18:01–18:48]

• Powerful families, e.g., Theophylacti, Crescentii, and Tusculani, control papal elections, turning the papacy into a pawn for local politics ([18:21]).

7. Wider European Politics and Royal Stakeholders

[18:48–20:01]

• Despite chaos, the Papacy remains vital for crowning emperors—Otto I, II, and III in Germany seek papal legitimacy and partnership ([19:20]).
• The symbolic and political pull of Rome never wanes.

8. Reform and the End of the Dark Ages

[20:12–21:48]

• By the 11th century, reform-minded popes like Leo IX and especially Gregory VII (the “Gregorian Papacy,” [20:38]) lead a sweeping cleanup:
  • Imposing clerical celibacy
  • Eliminating “simony” (selling church offices)
  • Raising the pope above influence from laymen and monarchs.

“There really is this idea… that the papacy is the ultimate spiritual head of the Christian world. And that’s how you’re going to reform the church—by the pope stepping up into this role.”
—Prof. Brett Whalen ([21:48])

9. The Rise to Power: Urban II and the Crusades

[21:48–24:10]

• Urban II, elected in 1088, builds authority even while in exile. Alison jokes about the name “Urban” ([22:13]).
• Urban II launches the First Crusade in 1095, a major assertion of papal clout and European unity against external foes ([23:09], [23:25]).

“In the Crusade… the show stopping demonstration of the Pope’s authority on a, I guess now we might call it an international level.”
—Prof. Brett Whalen ([23:25])

10. Reflection: Why the Dark Ages?

[25:08–26:59] Nuance Window

• Professor Whalen clarifies:
  • “Dark Ages” is often used to caricature the period as uniquely barbaric, but even contemporaries knew the Cadaver Synod was outrageous and called for reform.
  • The papal crises reflect broader patterns in medieval politics and society—not just random madness.
  • The chaos ultimately spurred long-term change, leading to a stronger, more independent papacy.

“Even in the middle of these troubles, you see these calls for reform, which really pick up steam in the 11th century…”
—Prof. Brett Whalen ([26:35])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alison Spittle [02:54]:
  “Saints, for me, were like superheroes, and popes were like the guys in the FBI supporting them quietly.”

• Greg Jenner [03:25]:
  “There’s a lot of drama. This is an extraordinary story and some serious shenanigans happening.”

• Alison Spittle [04:40]:
  “10,000 popes—that's another name of a band that I would love.”

• Greg Jenner [08:39]:
  “You get a handsome pope. The Jude Law pope. The young pope.”

• Brett Whalen [11:07]:
  “Supposedly, there was a deacon ...acting like a ventriloquist.”

• Alison Spittle [11:31]:
  “Now, how does the defendant plead? Dead, you, Honor. Dead.”

• Alison Spittle [13:12]:
  “I visited St. Valentine’s bones… I’m no longer Catholic. Love the iconography. I won’t lie. Love sitting in a church.”

• Greg Jenner [18:21]:
  “These are the kind of medieval mafia mob bosses of papal politics, aren’t they?”

• Greg Jenner [21:48]:
  “Are there going to be reforms coming down the pipeline?”

• Alison Spittle [27:04]:
  “I feel nuanced up to the eyeballs. My mind has been opened so hard.”

Important Timestamps

• [01:10–04:40] ― Introduction to the topic, history of the papacy.
• [07:19–08:22] ― The breakdown of papal biographies and the “Papal Dark Ages” defined.
• [08:22–13:06] ― Story of Pope Formosus, the Cadaver Synod, and its fallout.
• [15:26] ― The fate of Pope Stephen VI: deposition and murder.
• [17:44] ― Nine popes in eight years: the peak of papal instability.
• [18:21] ― The role of powerful Italian families in papal politics.
• [19:20–20:01] ― Involvement of the German emperors and the continued importance of papal approval for secular rulers.
• [20:38–21:48] ― The Gregorian Reform and new model of papal authority.
• [23:09] ― Urban II calls the First Crusade: papal power at its zenith.
• [25:08–26:59] ― The Nuance Window: Why these events matter and what “Dark Ages” really means.

Tone & Style

• Entertaining, breezy, irreverent, yet always respectful to the historical nuance.
• Frequent comedic asides from Alison Spittle and witty hosting by Greg Jenner.
• Detailed and accessible historical context from Prof. Brett Whalen.

Conclusion

This episode masterfully balances the absurd and the significant, using infamous moments like the Cadaver Synod to illuminate the broader forces shaping the medieval church. It's both a laugh-out-loud and highly educational journey through a once-notorious era that set the stage for the papacy's later global power.