Edo Japan (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me: Edo Japan (Radio Edit) - Detailed Summary

Episode Release Date: November 15, 2024

Introduction

In the episode titled "Edo Japan," BBC Radio 4’s comedy podcast You’re Dead to Me delves into the intricacies of 17th-century Japan during the Edo period. Host Greg Jenner, a public historian, teams up with two distinguished guests: Dr. Satana Suzuki, a lecturer in Japanese History at SOAS University of London, and Ahir Shah, an award-winning stand-up comedian and writer. Together, they explore the political, social, and cultural facets of Edo Japan, blending historical insights with humor.

Historical Context of Edo Japan

The Edo period, spanning from 1603 to 1867, marks a significant era in Japanese history characterized by the rule of the Tokugawa Shogunate. The episode begins with Greg Jenner setting the stage:

“The Edo period lasted from 1603, when Tokugawa Ieyasu was appointed Shogun by the Emperor, to 1867, when the last Shogun, Tokugawa Yoshinobu, returned power to the Emperor.” [04:24]

Dr. Satana Suzuki elaborates on the tumultuous transition leading to the Edo period:

“The Edo period was preceded by a century of constant warfare and instability. Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi played pivotal roles in unifying Japan, with Ieyasu Tokugawa ultimately establishing the shogunate after his victory at the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600.” [05:20]

Social Structure

Edo society was meticulously stratified into four main classes: samurai, peasants, artisans, and merchants. Greg prompts a discussion on these social groups:

“So society was divided into basically four social classes: samurai, peasants, artisans, and merchants.” [08:24]

Dr. Suzuki provides a detailed breakdown:

“At the top of the elite group were the daimyo, feudal lords who governed autonomous domains. Samurai were the warrior class, serving as both military and administrative officials, often receiving salaries in rice stipends.” [09:02]

Ahir Shah humorously interjects, reflecting modern perceptions of samurai:

“I think the image is the armor and the swords and these sorts of things. It comes with its own set of particular duties and privileges.” [09:47]

Dr. Suzuki adds depth by discussing the economic dynamics:

“While samurai were at the top of the social hierarchy, merchants, although officially at the bottom, accumulated significant wealth and influence, especially towards the end of the Tokugawa era.” [10:57]

Urban Life and Culture

Edo Japan witnessed remarkable urban growth, particularly in Edo (modern-day Tokyo), which became the world's largest city by 1720 with a population of over one million.

Ahir Shah offers a vivid portrayal of city life:

“If you were a 17th-century naval explorer landing on a Dutch ship, you'd be struck by the size and cleanliness of Edo compared to European cities.” [12:54]

Dr. Suzuki highlights the cultural vibrancy:

“Edo culture thrived with flourishing arts such as Kabuki, Bunraku (puppet theater), and Noh. Woodblock printing became popular, facilitating the mass distribution of literature and art.” [15:48]

Notable quotes on cultural forms include:

• “Kabuki is a traditional theater with dramatic performances and dance.” [15:41]
• “Ukiyo-e, or floating world pictures, provided vivid glimpses into Edo culture, influencing Western artists significantly.” [16:01]

Ahir humorously connects past and present:

“I’m a huge fan of manga, and references to Edo culture often amaze me how much it still impacts Japan today.” [27:22]

Edo Japan and the Wider World

The Tokugawa Shogunate implemented a policy of national seclusion (sakoku), limiting Japan’s interactions with the outside world primarily to Dutch and Chinese traders confined to Nagasaki’s artificial island, Dejima.

Ahir Shah summarizes:

“During the Tokugawa Shogunate, Japan essentially cut itself off from the world, except for limited trade with China and the Netherlands until the Meiji Restoration.” [17:22]

Dr. Suzuki elaborates on the reasons and implications:

“The policy aimed to maintain political stability and control over foreign influence, especially after the Shimabara Rebellion, which combined economic and religious factors.” [17:22]

The episode highlights the pivotal moment when Commodore Matthew Perry of the United States arrived in 1853, challenging Japan’s isolationist stance.

“Commodore Matthew Perry’s black ships arrived at Edo Bay in 1853 to open Japan to American trade, marking the beginning of the end for the Edo period.” [19:22]

The End of the Edo Period and Meiji Restoration

The influx of Western powers and internal strife culminated in the Meiji Restoration of 1868, which restored imperial rule and ended the Tokugawa Shogunate.

Dr. Suzuki outlines the transition:

“The Meiji Restoration was driven by both internal conflicts over shogunate succession and external pressures from Western imperial powers.” [24:19]

Ahir Shah humorously comments on the political chaos:

“If I were the shogun, after 260 years, I might just say goodbye. But that’s not how it happened.” [23:55]

Greg summarizes the culmination:

“The Shogun steps down, the Emperor steps up, and the Edo period comes to an end after 265 years.” [26:26]

Nuance Window

In the closing segment, Dr. Satana Suzuki provides a succinct overview of the Edo period’s legacy:

“The Edo period thrived due to political stability, economic growth, and cultural development. Despite Japan’s semi-isolation, the era saw flourishing arts like ukiyo-e and theater, which continue to influence modern Japanese culture.” [26:56]

She further emphasizes the period’s advancements:

“Edo Japan was not technologically or intellectually limited; the flourishing arts, crafts, and technologies demonstrate a society rich in creativity and resilience.” [26:56]

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Greg Jenner thanking the guests and encouraging listeners to explore other historical episodes, such as those on Julius Caesar and the Indus civilization. The conversation effectively bridges historical facts with engaging dialogue, making Edo Japan accessible and entertaining for a broad audience.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “The Edo period was preceded by a hundred years of constant warfare and instability.” — Dr. Satana Suzuki [05:20]
• “Samurai were not just warriors; they became administrators, receiving salaries instead of fighting.” — Dr. Satana Suzuki [10:14]
• “If you were a 17th-century naval explorer landing on a Dutch ship, you'd be struck by the size and cleanliness of Edo.” — Ahir Shah [12:54]
• “Ukiyo-e provided vivid glimpses into Edo culture, influencing Western artists significantly.” — Dr. Satana Suzuki [16:01]
• “Commodore Matthew Perry’s black ships arrived at Edo Bay in 1853 to open Japan to American trade.” — Dr. Satana Suzuki [19:22]
• “The Edo period thrived due to political stability, economic growth, and cultural development.” — Dr. Satana Suzuki [26:56]

Final Thoughts

You’re Dead to Me successfully intertwines humor with historical analysis, offering listeners a comprehensive look into Edo Japan. The episode highlights the complexity of the period, from its social hierarchies and cultural achievements to its interactions with the outside world and eventual decline. Whether you're a history enthusiast or a casual listener, this episode provides valuable insights into one of Japan’s most fascinating eras.

Transcript

[Ahir Shah]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Bartisian Ad]

Black Friday is coming and for the adults in your life who love the coolest toys, well, there's something for them this year too. Bartisian is the premier craft cocktail maker that automatically makes more than 60 seasonal and classic cocktails each in under 30 seconds at the push of a button. And right now Bartisian is having a huge site wide sale. You can get $100 off any cocktail maker or cocktail maker bundle when you spend 400. So if the cocktail lover in your life has been good this year or the right kind of bad, get them Bartesian at the push of a button. Make bar quality cosmopolitans, martinis, Manhattans and more all in just 30 seconds. All for 100 off. Amazing toys aren't just for kids. Get 100 off a cocktail maker when you spend 400 through Cyber Monday. Visit bartesian.com cocktail that's B A R T E S I A.

[Public Ad]

Heads up folks. Interest rates are falling, but as of September 23, 2024, you can still lock in a 6% or higher yield with a bond [e-mail] that's a pretty big deal because when rates drop, so can the interest you earn on your cash. A bond account allows you to lock in a 6% or higher yield with a diversified portfolio of high yield and investment grade corporate bonds. So while other people are watching their returns shrin, you can sit back with regular interest payments. But you might want to act fast because your yield is not locked in until you invest. The good news? It only takes a couple of minutes to sign [e-mail] lock in a 6% or higher yield with a bond account [e-mail] brought to you by Public Investing member Finran Sipc. Yield to worst is not guaranteed. Not an investment recommendation. All investing involves risk. Visit public.com disclosures for more info.

[Greg Jenner]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are boarding our black ships and sailing back to 17th century Japan to learn all about life in the Edo period and to help us distinguish our Kosode from Makimono. We have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a lecturer in both Japanese and modern Japanese History at SOAS University of London. It's Dr. Satana Suzuki. Welcome Satana.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.

[Greg Jenner]

We're very excited to have you. And in Comedy Corner, he's a stand up comedian writer and the winner of the Edinburgh Festival Comedy Award 2023. Maybe you've heard him on Radio 4, but you'll definitely remember him from our episodes about Julius Caesar, Julius Kaiser or the Indus civilization. It's Ahir Shah. Welcome back, Ahir.

[Ahir Shah]

Hello. Thank you very much for having me back. I'm very excited about this.

[Greg Jenner]

When I asked if you wanted to do this show, your face lit up with a frenzied zeal I've not seen before.

[Ahir Shah]

I was first asked about this when I just finished watching Shogun and was listening to the audiobook. In fact, I may well have been listening to the audiobook when I first got an email about it. So I was like, right, I definitely know everything about this topic based on what I'm sure was a documentary I recently watched.

[Greg Jenner]

So I think we can say we've got two experts in the room today, which is very exciting. So what do you know? This is why I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for listeners outside of Japan, I suspect chances are the answer is not very much. Much like me, maybe you've seen the Keanu reeves historical blockbuster 47 Ronin. Maybe you're a video game fan and you've played Total War, my fave. But most likely you'll know the recent TV series that Ahi has mentioned already. Shogun. It's based on a novel by James Clavell which lightly fictionalises the foundation of the Tokugawa Shogunate. And if you're a real shogun head, maybe you saw the short lived 1990 musical, also based on Clavell's novel. But what's the true story behind this brilliant TV show? What did samurai really get up to? Let's find out. Right, ah, here. When did the Edo period start?

[Ahir Shah]

Is Edo, the sort of name that was getting to what we now call Tokyo was called Edo at the time. I'm going to go 1647.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, the show is set in 1600 and as a satinar, we start the dynasty a tiny bit later. We start it the same year that in England or Britain we start the Stuart era, 1603. So how long is the Edo period? Why do we start it there?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

So the Edo period lasted from 1603. So that's when Tokugawasu was appointed Shogun by the Emperor to 1867. That's when Tokugayo Shinobu, that's the last Shogun, returned the London Register to the emperor so 260 years, something like that. I'm not really good at math, but something like 260 years. So it's a long time. Right?

[Greg Jenner]

And this is a time of warfare, instability. This is not a peaceful era.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

No, it's not. It's. The Edo period was preceded by a period of constant warfare and instability for about 100 years. But then between 1560 and 1582, Oda Nobunaga, that's one of my favorite historical figures. He was one of the warring states daimyo, and he sort of used force to extend control over 2/3 of Japan. Unfortunately, one of his subordinates, Akechi Mitsuhide, he assassinated oda Nobunaga in 1582. And after that, his other subordinate, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he rose to power.

[Greg Jenner]

So Hideyoshi conquered Japan in 1590, died in 1598.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Who takes over from him then?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Toyotomi Hideyori. That's Toyotomi Hideyoshi's five year old son. So he was left in charge, but he was managed by a group of five regents.

[Ahir Shah]

I am very, very unlikely to conquer Japan. Right. However, if I did and eight years later I died and de jure, if not de facto, ruled past my 5 year old son, I would be so gutted. Do you know what I mean? Like after all this. Eff, yeah. Like only 8 years would suck.

[Greg Jenner]

So the 5 year old is the new Shogun, but not really. A council is put in charge. And one of the members of that council is a rival of Hideyoshi.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

That's right. Yeah. One of the regions was Tokugawa Ieyasu. He thought that he was more qualified to unify Japan than anyone else. You know, looking back, he was right. So, yeah, in 1600, at the battle of Sekigahara, he has to sort of destroy the forces loyal to the Toyotomi family.

[Greg Jenner]

And that is the big win that establishes the beginnings of the Edo shogunate.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah. In 1603, he was actually named the Shogun.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Tokugawa Ieyasu named Shogun. He is the first Shogun of our period. Of the Edo period, I hear. Do you know what it translates to in English?

[Ahir Shah]

Shogun, I don't know.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Or Sei Taishogun. That's the official title. You should know this.

[Ahir Shah]

I should know what?

[Greg Jenner]

You should know this. Come on.

[Ahir Shah]

It's like the way that you said that, like, I briefly queried whether you had personally taught me Japanese in the past. You said it with like. You said it with the authority of, like, my mom. When I like, miss a bit of Grammar in Gujarati or something like, what are you doing? How did I raise you? Like, what's going on here? Shogun? Maybe that just means, like, warlord or something. I don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a good, sensible guess. The official translation would be barbarian subduing. General.

[Ahir Shah]

Nice. What a succinct language.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Tokugayasu was not the first shogun, but he was the first shogun or Japan, right? Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Basically, he unified the country.

[Greg Jenner]

What is the relationship between shogun and emperor then?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

The emperor's capital was in Kyoto, and then shogun's capital was in Edo. But Edo was the political and administrative center of Japan. So during the Edo period, Emperor had an important symbolic role, but he was essentially a prisoner in his palace. They are not allowed to step outside of their palace. They weren't even allowed to take a walk.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

So the shogun had to keep him happy as the legitimizer of the political power, but also controlled and restricted the emperor via the law.

[Greg Jenner]

Who are the social groups in society at this time? We had the elite groups, don't we? So should we start with them?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah. So society was divided into basically four social classes. So you have the samurai, elites, and then you have peasants, artisans and merchants. And, you know, at the top of the elite group were the daimyo, the feudal lords, who are rulers of domains, or han in Japanese. And they autonomously governed these domains or han. But every alternate year they had to live in Edo, and their families were essentially hostages of the Tokugawa to ensure their loyalty to the shogunate. So the family had to stay in Edo.

[Greg Jenner]

From my point of view, growing up, I knew a lot about ninjas and samurai, but actually I didn't really. Yeah, you know, so what do you think of when you think of samurai?

[Ahir Shah]

The image is the image that everyone has in their head. You know, like the armor and the swords and these sorts of things. I think that it's like a hereditary thing or a family thing. There's a link to your family or house or whatever. But it comes with its own set of particular duties, but also its own particular set of privileges, such as basically being able to do whatever you want to anyone who isn't a samurai.

[Greg Jenner]

Satana. Is that a good summary?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

I guess? Yes. I mean, they were elites. They're not commoner. Right. Samurai basically means warriors. But Edo samurai are different to how they are thought of now because, you know, at the time of peace, they don't fight. Right, Right. Yeah. And then they're often sort of administrators who are like paid Salary with rice stipends. So they're like, salary.

[Ahir Shah]

So you just become a civil servant after a while?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah, something like that. Because you don't need to.

[Ahir Shah]

My wife's a samurai. Amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

They're just slicing their way through mountains of paperwork.

[Ahir Shah]

They say.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. So artisans are craftspeople. They're making things. Peasants are farmers. And then merchants are selling.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah, so merchants were like merchants, really. Yeah. So officially at the bottom of this hierarchy, the social system. But they're often sort of despised for handling money. I don't know why people do that. I like money. We can't do anything with money. I mean, I don't love it, but.

[Ahir Shah]

I'm being paid £8,000 to be on this.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

More than me. But in reality, though, many became very, very rich and very wealthy, and they sort of started to exert power and influence towards the end of the Tokuga, you know, because the commerce and transportation develop and they have more jobs. Right. But samurai, on the other hand, especially lower ranking samurai, they became very, very impoverished towards the end. And the population, too, between 1600 and 1720, something like that, was estimated to have doubled. But later in the period, the population growth sort of stagnated, so it sort of stopped. It plummeted every time farming hit Japan.

[Greg Jenner]

Satana, you said in the second half of the Edo period, which we're saying is 265 years or so.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

In the second half of that period, the economic sort of patterns, they change, and there's a sort of decrease in population or there's a slowdown. So what happens at that time, then?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

So it's because of this, you know, development of commerce and transportation. It was really kind of really vigorous. And of course, it depends on the region, but some countryside industries really, really flourished, you know, like sake. You like sake? I like sake, Yeah, I love sake and silk and cotton and ceramics and things like that. So it was really, really vibrant.

[Greg Jenner]

So that was life in the kind of rural areas, I think. Ahir, I want to turn to you and ask you about city life, actually. So what do you imagine of the Edo period and the cities in Japan this time?

[Ahir Shah]

Again, I'm. Listen, I'm going off a documentary that I recently watched. Right. But I think that if you were, let's just say at Random, a 17th century naval explorer who landed from England on a Dutch ship, you would be really struck by both the size and cleanliness of the cities relative to those you were used to in your native Europe.

[Greg Jenner]

I think that's a very fair answer. And of Course that is. I mean the character in the. In the show is not a real character, but he's based on a real guy, William Adams. So there was a. There was an English pilot who arrived in Japan this, we call this the Edo period because of Edo, the city which was huge, wasn't it Satuna?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah, I mean city was really growing and the samurai became mostly city residents and things. And not just Edo, but Osaka, Kyoto were like growing as well. But like you said, the biggest of all is Edo, which was originally a really small castle town. But by 1720, early 1700s had already reached a population of 1 million apparently. Yeah. This marked the largest city in the world at the time by population. Tokyo still is the largest. And Osaka was the biggest commercial hub of course with many rich rice merchants and things. There was a shift later in the period of two rural industries which led to the declining economic power of some urban areas.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, economic decline. Boo. But I don't know anything about the history of economics. So I'm going to move on to the stuff that I like.

[Ahir Shah]

And that's why you're not being paid £8,000 to.

[Greg Jenner]

So let's talk more about culture and entertainment in Edo Japan. What do you think are the go to cultural kind of touchstones that people respect and admire?

[Ahir Shah]

Huge theatrical tradition.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Ahir Shah]

In Japan for sure. Musical tradition, poetic tradition. Those would be three of my guesses.

[Greg Jenner]

Excellent guesses, Satan. Let's talk about theater.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

So Edo culture was really, really thriving, especially those things like theater. But mainly sort of three major things. So Kabuki, you might know it's a traditional theater with a dramatic performance with dance and then bundaku, that's a puppet theater involving like 2/3 life size puppets controlled by three men with musicians and singer actions, you know, chanting and narration. And then Noh. Do you know Noh? No, I don't. So it's like a musical. Performers wear like masks and sings and dance to musical instruments. And history or patronage of Noh theatre went right back to Hideyoshi, meaning it was closely embedded with the lives of the elites at Tsutaimi were often expected to patronize the arts.

[Greg Jenner]

And how long does a play last? You know, is it two hours with an intermission, is it?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Well, it could be two hours, but sometimes it could last for days.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, that's too much culture. What other arts and cultural activities are important in Edo Japan? Satin, A visual art I want to think about.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah. So woodblock printing became very popular because it could sort of publish literature and art very cheaply en masse so this rising commercial printing coincided with the rising literacy rates as well. And in terms of art, the most significant is Ukiyo E. You might heard of it like it's literally translated as floating world pictures. And culturally it made it possible to have a vivid glimpse into Edo culture. You know, people can see that from fashion to leisure activities like kabuki and sumo wrestling and tea house and also brothels.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Artistically speaking, you know, ukiyo achieved remarkably sort of detailed and vibrant colors and complex compositions and had a huge impact on Western artists.

[Greg Jenner]

So that slightly brings us on actually to something I wanted to bring up next actually is Edo, Japan's relationship with the wider world. Because obviously Japan is a series of islands, I hear. What do you know of Japan's attitude towards foreign traders and missionaries in this time?

[Ahir Shah]

My understanding was that basically during the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the exception of like certain sort of naval trading relationships with, I guess like China and Korea, pretty much cut off from the rest of the world. Intentionally self cut off from the rest of the world until the Meiji Restoration.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Very close. Yes, it's very. Yeah, it's correct. Really. Yeah. So Tokuga Japan had a very sort of limited diplomatic relation with the Dutch, the Chinese and the Koreans. So Dutch and the Chinese, they were sort of kind of merchants, basically were confined to this little man made fun, sort of fun shaped island called Dejima near Nagasaki and the Korean. Through the Tsushima domain, Japan traded with the Portuguese and the Spaniards and allowed missionary activities. But some daimyo in southern parts of Japan were Christians too. And rulers, including Hideoshi and Ieyasu restricted missionary activities. In between 16 sets 33 and 39, Tokuga IEMIS also issued a series of regulations including prohibiting Japanese people from leaving Japan and coming back to Japan, things like that. He also banned the export of weapons and the teaching of Christianity in Japan. But the massive rebellion in the Christian stronghold of Shimabara in 1637, 68 was like the last straw. It was a combination of economic religious factors. But, you know, from 1639 onwards, Japan adopted this national seclusion policy.

[Greg Jenner]

But that does not mean that Japan was completely isolated. Satina, you know, the idea here that they. It's not like they shut the door and trapped out the. You know, they didn't stop the world getting in, did they?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Well, yeah, I mean, not entirely, but for one, they had the Dutch trading connections, right, like, and the Chinese, but only the Baku who had the right to trade. The bakuhu means the Shogunate. So it's the Military government controlled by the shogun. So you might have this perception that Edo Japan was closed off completely or isolated, but they're actually very much aware of what was going on in the rest of the world.

[Greg Jenner]

And this policy of semi isolation held until the end of the period towards the 1850s. Do you know who turned up in the 1850s knocking on Japan's door?

[Ahir Shah]

Twas I. I have lived in this world long before any of you and will be here long after.

[Greg Jenner]

Normally on this show, the default answer is the British Empire. That's normally what happens about 80%. Weirdly, on this one, it's America. Yeah, the United States, which I was not expecting. The Americans show up in the 1850s, and it's a guy by the name of Commodore Matthew Perry, not the beloved actor from friends. 1853. Tell me the story, Satin.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Commodore Matthew Perry, his black ship arrived at the edo Bay in 1853. So the main objective is to open Japan to American trade. Obviously, you know, the US wanted new market access to Japanese coal and also secure a safe base for its whaling ships. And also establishing presence in Japan was, you know, strategically very important as one of the rising imperial powers. Right. So Perry persuaded the Bakuhu's representatives that it would be better for Japan to sign a treaty with America than the British. You know, you know how much damage the British Empire inflicted on China, you know, the Opium wars and things. Right.

[Ahir Shah]

As a British Indian man, it's something that I have a passing familiarity with, and there are complex historical reasons between this face and this voice.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Ah, here we've got a picture actually, we can show you. This is by an unknown artist. It's one of Matthew Perry's ships. Would you like to describe it for us?

[Ahir Shah]

It's black. Black Ship. Right. I would describe the vibe as off. The ship has a face, but the face has, like a big horn, like a narwhal or a unicorn, but a man's face who does not look like he looks pleased, but in a bad way.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Evil.

[Ahir Shah]

Yeah, evil. Pleased.

[Greg Jenner]

This is a depiction of a suspicious foreign power, Satina.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Wow. That's the perception at the time.

[Greg Jenner]

And once the Americans are sort of through the door, Britain are like, well, could we come in? You've done a deal with them. And we're good at empires too. So the British, who else, Satina?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

All the big boys. You know, the British, the French and the Dutch and, you know, Prussian and sort of Russian also sent ships, you know, these imperial powers with the capital P. Normally when one imperial power signed a treaty. Treaty meaning Unequal treaty. Others followed, I hear.

[Greg Jenner]

If you were the government of the shogunate of Japan, how would you respond to this influx of Western powers waving treaties in your face?

[Ahir Shah]

You can really imagine someone standing to the side just being like, I did tell you that if you gave one, they'd all want one. Right. And what's happened? What's happened?

[Greg Jenner]

The Ahir shargonate is very much one of saying, I told you so. Is that right?

[Ahir Shah]

No, no, no. In this, I'm the sort of like, slightly harried shogun being like, yeah, I get it, I get it.

[Greg Jenner]

All right, Satina. The really interesting thing is that the shogunate at this stage consults the emperor, who for 250 years has been sort of, you know, over there somewhere in Kyoto. But suddenly the shogun consults the emperor for his advice.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah, because they panicked. And this act of asking backfired majorly for the shogunate because emperor at the time was Kome, Kome, Kome. He said, no, you should just fulfill your duty as barbarian subduing General. But in 1858. Sorry, yeah. The shogunate gave into pressure and signed an equal treaty with America without imperial approval. So that sort of angered many samurai loyalists, leading to this movement called Sonno Joi Movement. Undo. That means Sonno is revered Emperor expelled. Barbarian movement.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, good name for a movement.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Two different policies in one movement. I like that.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah. It was not anti bakuhu movement to start with, but that sort of radically, you know, becoming anti bakuhu too, over time.

[Greg Jenner]

And so we've got all these domestic issues now in the 1860s. So we've got famines, angry peasants in the countryside, angry people in the cities, a bunch of foreign countries parking their warships on Japan's front lawn. Ahir, how would you solve this in the Ahir Shaganate? I'm gonna keep using that. I'm sorry. I'm very happy with it.

[Ahir Shah]

I would just. Do you know what? 260 is a good run.

[Greg Jenner]

You'd say what? Just sort of farewell. Thanks very much. You ever go.

[Ahir Shah]

No, No, I don't think that I would do that. You've got to stand up. You got to stand your ground.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, good. I mean, Satin, we're coming towards the Meiji Restoration. So do you want to talk us through the lead up to that?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah. So the meiji Restoration of 1868, that brought an end to the shogunate because of a combination of internal external factors. But before that, there's also, you know, ongoing conflict over the succession of the Shogunate between I, Naosuke and Sam Furai Daimyo who wanted a 12 year old Tokugai Yoshitomi. And the 12 year old Yoshitomi was put forward because he would be controlled by the Chief Counselor. You know, he'd be more easy.

[Ahir Shah]

Did no one go? This whole thing started because someone tried to put a baby in charge. Like maybe. Let's not do that.

[Greg Jenner]

5 was too young, but maybe 12 is just right.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

12 at the time is 30 years old, so it's okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Do they choose the 12 year old then? Is that the decision?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yes. Yes. But the 12 year old was the 14th Shogun, but the other one became the 15th Shogun anyway. So it was just a matter of timing really. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So things are going really wrong because we're back to the political violence we started our story with. Really?

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And you've got ongoing conflicts. So by 1866, the shogunate military forces. It's going really wrong for them. And when is The Meiji Restoration? 1860.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

January 3, 1868. Yes. That's when the raw ranking samurai from Satsuma, Choshu, Hizen and. Gosh. Satsuma, Choshu, Hizen and Tosa. Sorry, my students will have a go at me. And together with certain progressive courtiers, you know, from the courts, they decided to carry out this coup d'like. A really peaceful coup d'etat. It's just a sort of discussion, but coup d'etat that, you know. The meiji Emperor, the 16 year old getting older Mage Emperor is the new sovereign and they established this imperial rule.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so the Shogun steps down, the Emperor steps up. Yeah, it's the endo of the Edo. It's the. We're out, it's done. Mission accomplished.

[Ahir Shah]

265 years Edo period completed it, mate.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance Window. Okay, well, that's been a fascinating chat. It's time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Ahia and I set down our samurai swords and we sit quietly with our rice bowl for two minutes while Dr. Satan takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about Edo Japan. Without much further ado, it's very incredible.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

How long the edo period lasted. 260 years. And Edo Japan, you know, thrived due to political stability and economic growth and also cultural development. Political stability was maintained through the, I would say, effective governance of the Tokuga Shogunate. You know, this, you know, carrot and stick strategy and granting autonomy while implementing the hostage system. So I thought it was quite clever. The shogunate maintained contact with the rest of the world through the Dutch and the Chinese, albeit in a sort of pacific manner. So that sort of indicated that Edo Japan was still part of the international community, you could say. But while some may argue that Edo Japan was sort of technologically, culturally and intellectually limited and sort of susceptible to external pressure because of this long period of isolation, you can see the flourishing arts, crafts and technologies during the Edo period. And you know, they're amazing. So that suggests otherwise. And personally, I'm more drawn to the cultural aspects of the period, you know, like ukiyo e and literature, especially ghost stories. I recommend that you should just read that. It's great. And also theater, you know, these are like still vital components of Japanese culture today. For example, I don't know whether I can say this, but I'm a huge fan of manga. You know, the comic, Japanese comic. Do you read this? I don't know, but I still read a lot of them and spend far too much so a salary on it because, you know, whenever I come across references of Edo culture, which you see a lot, it often, you know, amazes me how how much Edo culture still impact Japan today. Go and read manga.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you, Satana, for that wonderful lesson.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Really enjoyable listener. After today's episode, you want more from our. Here we've got our episodes on the rise of Julius Kaiser and the Indus civilization. And for a different East Asian story, try our episode on Tang Dynasty China. That's a medieval story which I enjoyed very much. But it's time to just say thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the sensational Dr. Satana Suzuki from SOAS. Thank you, Satana.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Thank you so much. I had a great fun.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it was real fun. And in Comedy Corner we had the always amazing Ahir Shah. Thank you, Ahir.

[Ahir Shah]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we restore another topic to its rightful place in history. But for now, I'm off to go and stage a revival of the musical because every shogun needs show tunes.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

I wanted to speak to the souls of a million strangers.

[John Wilson]

This cultural life from BBC Radio 4.

[Greg Jenner]

I actually started crying.

[John Wilson]

Leading artistic figures reveal the influences that inspired their own creativity.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

Wow.

[John Wilson]

I'm John Wilson and we've had over 100 guests on the show so far, including Nile Rogers and Zadie Smith.

[Greg Jenner]

I wanted to read Everything Without Borders, Andrew Scott. If you miss out the sense of.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

The absurd, then you're missing such a.

[Greg Jenner]

Major part of what makes human beings.

[John Wilson]

Wonderful Judi Dench, Paul McCartney, Whoopi Goldberg, Tracy Emin, Lily Allen.

[Greg Jenner]

I felt like I could be seen and affect people.

[John Wilson]

Listen to this cultural life on BBC Sounds.

[Ahir Shah]

It's like the beating of your heart.

[Dr. Satana Suzuki]

That's why I love it so much.

[Bartisian Ad]

Black Friday is coming. And for the adults in your life who love the coolest toys, well, there's something for them this year too. Bartisian is the premier craft cocktail maker that automatically makes more than 60 seasonal and classic cocktails each in under 30 seconds at the push of a button. And right now Bartisian is having a huge site wide sale. You can get $100 off any cocktail maker or cocktail maker bundle when you spend $400 or more. So if the cocktail lover in your life has been good this year or the right kind of bad, get them Bartesian at the push of a button. Make bar quality Cosmopolitans, Martinis, Manhattans and more all in just 30 seconds. All for 100 off. Amazing toys aren't just for kids. Get a hundred off a cocktail maker when you spend 400 through Cyber Monday. Visit bartesian.com cocktail that's B A R T E S I A N dot.

[Public Ad]

Com cocktail heads up folks. Interest rates are falling, but as of September 23, 2024, you can still lock in a 6% or higher yield with a bond [e-mail] that's a pretty big deal because when rates drop, so can the interest you earn on your cash. A bond account allows you to lock in a 6% or higher yield with a diversified portfolio of high yield and investment grade corporate bonds. So while other people are watching their returns shrink, you can sit back with regular interest payments. But you might want to act fast because your yield is not locked in until you invest. The good news? It only takes a couple of minutes to sign [e-mail] lock in a 6% or higher yield with a bond account [e-mail] brought to you by Public Investing member Finran Sipc. Yield to worst is not guaranteed. Not an investment recommendation. All investing involves risk. Visit public.com disclosures for more info.