El Cid: the life and legend of a medieval Spanish warrior

Summary

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"You're Dead to Me" – El Cid: The Life and Legend of a Medieval Spanish Warrior

Podcast: You're Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Professor Nora Behrend (University of Cambridge, medieval historian), Toussaint Douglas (comedian)
Date: April 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode journeys into the chaotic, adventurous life and enduring legend of El Cid—Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar—a medieval warrior from 11th-century Spain. Host Greg Jenner, alongside historian Professor Nora Behrend and comedian Toussaint Douglas, explores the true story behind the myth: from Rodrigo's mercenary career and complicated politics to how history, legend, and propaganda molded his legacy across the centuries.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Who Was El Cid? (01:12–05:22)

• Name Origins:
  • "El" simply means "the" in Castilian Spanish; "Cid" derives from the Arabic "sayyid" or "my lord" (05:22).
  • The name is largely a posthumous creation; during his life, he was more commonly known as "Campeador" (Battler).
• Rodrigo’s Real Name:
  • Full name: Rodrigo Díaz (also known as Rui Díaz), son of Diego (Diaz = son of Diego) (07:07).

"Either everyone was called El Cid or no one was called El Cid." – Toussaint Douglas (06:27)

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Context: 11th-Century Spain (07:52–10:44)

• Political Landscape:
  • Born mid-11th century during a turbulent period: Al-Andalus (Muslim Spain) fractured into 33 Taifa principalities after the fall of the Caliphate.
  • Northern Christian kingdoms (Leon, Castile, Aragon) gain ground through raids, plundering, and "protection racket" tribute.
• Ethnic & Religious Complexity:
  • Arab leaders led the conquest, but many invading armies were Berbers from North Africa.
  • Ongoing Christian-Muslim alliances and frequent betrayals; identity politics were much more fluid than modern assumptions.

"Christian kings had more of a chance dying by the hands of other Christians, including their relatives, than dying fighting Muslims." – Professor Nora Behrend (20:00)

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Rodrigo’s Rise: Warrior, Courtier, and Exile (10:44–16:49)

• Background:
  • Minor aristocrat; an aristocratic upbringing involved martial training and military apprenticeship.
• Role at Court:
  • Entered the retinue of Infante Sancho (later Sancho II); led the king’s warriors after Sancho became king in 1065.
• Spanish Game of Thrones:
  • After King Fernando I's death, his realm was split among three sons—Sancho II, Alfonso VI, and García II—who fought bitterly for control.
  • Sancho assassinated while relieving himself by a wall—"Literally a low blow" (14:59).
• Court Shifts:
  • Rodrigo demonstrated little loyalty, aligning quickly with the survivor, Alfonso VI.
  • Eventually exiled by Alfonso after an unauthorized raid.

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Mercenary Leader & the Freelancer Analogy (16:49–21:11)

• First Exile:
  • Works for Muslim rulers in Zaragoza, changing allegiances as survival and ambition dictate.
• Character:
  • Not motivated by religious extremism—"a member of the gig economy" (20:37), compared to a modern footballer on loan abroad.

"On the battlefield, he put the lance into freelance." – Greg Jenner (17:00)

Rodrigo's Return(s) & Path to Power (21:11–28:12)

• Kiss and Makeup:
  • Rodrigo is recalled by Alfonso VI after the Almoravids invade, but they fall out again.
  • Rodrigo builds his own power base, fortifying abandoned castles and raiding for personal gain.
• Conquest of Valencia:
  • Besieges and starves out the city in 1094, becomes princeps ("prince" or ruler) of Valencia, wielding authority over both Christians and Muslims.

"He's now just. Just trying to build up a power base for himself." – Professor Nora Behrend (23:14)

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Rule in Valencia: Ruthless Ruler or Multicultural Model? (28:12–31:08)

• Brutal Feats:
  • Siege warfare involved burning people alive, heavy taxation/extortion, and harsh rule over Muslims.
• Aftermath:
  • Upon his death in 1099 (of natural causes), his widow Ximena ruled Valencia briefly; the city fell to the Almoravids shortly after, and Rodrigo's remains were carried to the monastery of San Pedro de Cardeña.

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The Legend Grows: Myths, Saints, and Strapped-to-a-Horse (36:08–42:22)

• Formation of the Legend:
  • Propagated by descendants, nationalist myths, and the monks seeking to boost their monastery’s prestige.
  • 13th-century texts invented the tale of dead Rodrigo being strapped to his horse, leading his troops to posthumous victory.

"He strapped himself to a horse and he rode off into battle and inspired them." – Toussaint Douglas (58:47)

• Miracle Tales:
  • Body displayed unburied for years, reputed to perform miracles; monks tried (unsuccessfully) to have him canonized as a saint.

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El Cid in Later Centuries: French Looters to Franco (42:22–52:14)

• Napoleon’s Men:
  • French soldiers looted his tomb (1808); embarrassed generals staged a public reburial—remains stored under a bed for safekeeping.
• Francoist Spain:
  • 20th-century dictator Franco styled himself as the new Cid; state propaganda painted El Cid as a crusading Christian hero and symbol of Castilian dominance.
  • Republicans tried to claim Cid for themselves as well—"everything to everyone."

"He's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism... quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic warrior." – Professor Nora Behrend (Nuance Window, 53:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On modern associations:
  • "Sounds like the name of a lead singer of a Spanish punk band... And also a cleaning product. You know, El Cid. And the dirt is Quetado." – Toussaint Douglas (03:17)
• On protection rackets:
  • "That sounds very Christian." – Toussaint Douglas (09:52)
• On freelance warrior life:
  • "On the battlefield, he put the lance into freelance." – Toussaint Douglas (17:02)
• On medieval men's feuding:
  • "My camp is bigger than your camp." – Toussaint Douglas (25:06)
• Strapped-to-his-horse legend:
  • "A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it? Head guy strapped him." – Toussaint Douglas (41:30)
• On posthumous career:
  • "He's everything to everyone." – Greg Jenner (55:26)

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | |--------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:12–03:44 | Introductions, basic knowledge of El Cid | | 05:22–07:16 | The origin/meaning of the name "El Cid" | | 07:52–10:44 | 11th-century Spain: Taifa, Christian kingdoms | | 13:31–14:59 | Royal family drama; Sancho’s messy assassination | | 16:49–19:25 | Rodrigo’s exile, mercenary work in Zaragoza | | 21:11–23:31 | Rodrigo returns, falls out with Alfonso again | | 26:56–28:09 | Siege and conquest of Valencia | | 28:42–31:08 | Rodrigo’s rulership and lasting reputation | | 36:08–41:25 | How the myth of ‘El Cid’ grew; dead-man-riding legend | | 42:22–45:44 | El Cid’s remains and Napoleonic drama | | 46:51–52:14 | Francoist use of the Cid and mural description | | 53:28–55:20 | Nuance Window: The left, the right, and El Cid’s afterlife | | 56:21–59:32 | Quick-fire recap quiz |

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Summary Table: El Cid’s Real Legacy vs. The Legend

| Historical Rodrigo Díaz | Legendary ‘El Cid’ | |-----------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------| | Minor aristocrat; skilled knight | Christian hero, near-saint | | Served both Christian and Muslim masters | Foe of Islam, religious crusader | | Opportunistic, often ruthless political survivor | Paragon of loyalty and chivalry | | Mercenary, led raids, practiced extortion | Righteous liberator and prince | | Died peacefully in 1099 | Led armies after death, performed miracles | | Wife Ximena briefly ruled Valencia after his death | Descendants and monks amplified hero myth |

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Final Reflections

• Fluidity of History: The real man is hard to pin down; most "facts" come from centuries-later legends or propaganda.
• Myth as Instrument: From medieval monks to fascists to left-wing Republicans, El Cid’s story is repeatedly retold to serve contemporary needs.
• He’s everything to everyone: As Professor Behrend notes, El Cid embodies both the model of coexistence and the stereotype of the crusading Christian.

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Nuance Window (53:28–55:20)

"[El Cid] is everything: white supremacist, multicultural hero, anti-tyranny republican—remarkable for such an opportunistic warrior."
– Professor Nora Behrend

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Memorable Quiz Answers

• Name "El Cid" comes from Arabic "sayyid" (“my lord”)
• Served three Muslim rulers in Zaragoza during first exile
• Practiced protection rackets (tributes for not raiding)
• Repeatedly fell out with Alfonso VI over personal slights and missed duties
• Became ruler of Valencia; wife Ximena ruled after his death
• After Napoleon’s army looted the tomb, Rodrigo’s bones were kept under a general’s bed
• Franco likened himself to El Cid in 20th-century propaganda

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In Conclusion:
Rodrigo Díaz, aka El Cid, was no starched-chivalry hero but a tough, pragmatic survivor in a turbulent age. Over centuries, myth and history blurred, his image wielded by everyone from nationalist dictators to hopeful multiculturalists. Thanks to "You're Dead to Me," we get to laugh, learn, and see El Cid not just as a statue or a corpse on a horse, but as a vivid—if complicated—figure who refuses to stay quietly in history's grave.

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Transcript

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are gathering a band of mercenaries and galloping back to 11th century Spain to learn about legendary warrior and and all around lad El Cid. And to join our quest we have two very special comrades in arms in History Corner. She's professor of European History at the University of Cambridge where she specializes in medieval social and religious history. She's the author of the fascinating book El Cid the Life and Afterlife of a Medieval Mercenary. It's Professor Nora Behrend. Welcome Nora.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. And can someone take good care of my horse while I'm here?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, pop it in the stables. No worries. Annie Comedy Corner Annie Comedy Corner. He's an award winning stand up and comedy writer. You might have seen him on Richard Osman's House of Games. Comedians giving lectures, Outsiders Late night mash. Maybe you've seen his recent smash hit stand up show, Accessible pigeon material and you'll remember him from our past episodes on Frederick Douglass and the causes of the British Civil Wars. It's Tucson Douglas. Welcome back to Usain.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Thanks for having me Greg. Absolute pleasure to be here. This is without doubt my favorite podcast on the BBC about history.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Thank you

[Greg Jenner]

the caveats started rolling in last time out, Toussaint. We were on home turf with the British Civil Wars. I know you're quite good on politics and history.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So how comfortable are you with medieval Spain?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I'm going to be completely honest with you, Greg. Spanish historical figures, not my forte. I know Chris. We all know Chris, right? You don't even have to say his last name. We all know Chris. I'm talking about akabusi. Chris Akabusi, 1992 Olympics bronze medalist. I'm obviously talking about Christopher Columbus, Catherine of Aragon. I know them. And then it gets quite sketchy. We're on to Don Quixote. Oh, it's called one. Yeah. I'm not even sure if these people are actually real people, but I know them.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. The last two are fictional, but that's fine. Okay, so the name El Cid, nothing's going off in your brain.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, first off, let's just. It's a great name, right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Sounds like the name of, like, a lead singer of, like, a Spanish punk band. You know what I mean?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yes.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And also a cleaning product. You know, El Cid. And the dirt is Quetado. You know, that's what's rigging for me when you say El Cid. But no, I don't know who he is.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, well, that's fine. That's all good. I mean, I. I mean, I think I'm older than you, so for me the movie comes to mind. But, you know, you're a younger man, so clearly you haven't got that kind of nostalgia, so.

[Toussaint Douglas]

My nan used to have lots of VHS, so she used to record lots of old movies, so I didn't want. I might be making this up, but I think I might have seen. Was it like a really old 1960s movie with the guy from Planet of the Apes?

[Greg Jenner]

That's it. Chom. Not the ape. That's it.

[Toussaint Douglas]

The human. Okay, cool. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Elstic was an ape. Yeah.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Weird casting, but all I remember from that film is it was quite long and then like, they strapped him onto a horse at the end.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good knowledge.

[Toussaint Douglas]

That's all I know. I don't know if I'm intrigued to know, nor if that is actually historically accurate. It didn't feel like it at the time. I'll be honest, it felt like a stretch.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is the. Sir, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you are, lovely listener will know about. About today's subject. And if you're tuning in from Spain, you will probably be familiar with El Cid. For everyone else, I reckon you're kind of where Toussaint is half remembering a dead guy on a horse from the classic 1961 movie El Cid, starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren. She did not play the horse. Just joking. And Lister, actually, if you're in the UK, you can watch the El Cid movie on BBC iPlayer. It's there right now and it's there for a while. And of course, in that movie, El Cid is portrayed as a Christian hero who fights Muslim invaders. If you're a gamer like me a bit, you will know El Cid from the Crusader Kings games and the Total War Games. My absolute faves. But who was the man behind the myth? Does his real life live up to legend? And can a corpse really lead an army? Let's find out. Okie dokie. Nora, we're calling this guy El Cid, first name El, last name Sid.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

I'm afraid not. El is the Castilian vernacular, the. And Sid comes from the Arabic. It's a distorted Arabic term from said lord. It used to be thought that he was called Me Usid, my lord by his Muslim subjects and that it was a unique honorific. This has now been very much questioned because the first source that calls him that is later after he died, he was called Campeador Battler in his lifetime.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

And so it may well be that even Sid, but certainly El Cid the Lord, is just kind of part of the later legend already. But to complicate things a little further, we now also know that around 1100, other people started to be called me in the region, and that Sidi was already a kind of personal name from the Arabic, came into the Castilian secular as a personal name. So either he was not called me o Cid at all while he was alive, or if he was, it wasn't unique.

[Toussaint Douglas]

So to summarize, either everyone was called El Cid or no one was called El Cid.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. That's good. Do we have a real name for him, though? Do you want to give us a guess on what a good Spanish name for this fella?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, this could get quite stereotyping. I think my favorite Spanish name has to be Rafael. Rafael Nadal. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so you think he's a tennis player?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, I think. Yeah. Maybe a little bit of rackets.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Does he have a very strong backhand, Nora?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Perhaps he did, but you got the first letter right.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Oh, okay.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

The R is correct.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I'll take that.

[Greg Jenner]

Do we have another gu. We could play hangman.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Roberto.

[Greg Jenner]

No, that would be more Italian, I think, wouldn't it? Yeah. Okay, Nora, what's our Rodrigo Diaz or RUY Diaz?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So at the time, Rodrigo and Rui were sort of the same name.

[Greg Jenner]

Is Diaz a surname or is it a middle name?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So Diaz is basically. They used patronymics. So from your father's name, you had the. So his father was Diego. So he was Diaz.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Okay, so Rodrigo Diaz, not really El Cid until later on. So we'll call him Rodrigo. We'll call him Rodrigo. That's the guy. Okay. We've done a full episode already, listeners on Al Andalus, which you can go listen to in the back catalogue. It's lots of fun. But can we have a quick refresher? What sort of world is Rodrigo Diaz born into, when in history, and what's his class status?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

It was a time of opportunity and political upheaval. We don't really know exactly when he was born, but it's kind of middle of the 11th century. So to go back a little bit. In the early 8th century, an Arab led Berber conquest arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. And in the wake of that, Al Andalus, a Muslim society developed. And this Al Andalus was the main power on the Iberian Peninsula for quite a long time, until 1031, when the last Caliph, Hisham III, was overthrown.

[Greg Jenner]

You've mentioned the Arabs and the Berbers there. Could you explain the differences between them? Because I think maybe some of our listeners, including myself, might not know the subtle nuances.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. So the Arabs converted to Islam, were the first followers of Muhammad. The bear bears of North Africa were relatively recently converted, or not yet quite converted to Islam at this point. So the leadership consisted of the Arabs, but a lot of the army invading the peninsula were bear bears from North Africa. And then Al Andalus fragmented into a lot of what are called Taifa principalities. There were 33 of them initially.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. So one kingdom turned into 33.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Exactly. So a huge change. And it also meant that the northern Christian kingdoms, which were slowly emerging after the early 8th century, by the 11th century, there was Leon, Castile and Aragon, who were the main players. On the Christian side, they now had the upper hand. So these Christians from the north could start raiding into the south. They took plunder, but they also destroyed property, infrastructure. And this gave rise to what has been called a protection racket. So the northerners could say, if you pay us in gold, we are not going to raid you. So the Muslims of the south were sending all these treasures north.

[Toussaint Douglas]

That sounds very Christian. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So toussaint what do you think of Pequeno Rodrigo's childhood? You know, what do you imagine his childhood was like? What class do you think he's born into? And what do you think his early days are?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Well, he ended up as my lord. The Lord. So I guess there's got to be some sort of lordiness involved in this childhood.

[Greg Jenner]

Is that a technical term?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, I'm from Lewisham. I have no idea. I think he wasn't a commoner. I said, okay, I'm gonna pitch him. But he was a fighter, right? Actually kind of been that high up because they didn't get their hands though.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Toussaint Douglas]

So I'm thinking I guess the equivalent of like middle class. Maybe he's like, you know, lower middle class. Like, you know, he was middle class, but he, you know, he would secretly shop at Lidls. He's that in terms of nobility, that's kind of where he was back then. I don't know. I have no idea.

[Greg Jenner]

I think that's a really good guess. I think that's a good summary. Nora.

[Toussaint Douglas]

We're.

[Greg Jenner]

I guess you said 1043 for his birth range up until maybe 1057.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. So we don't actually know. They try to calculate this based on his appearance.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a 14 year spread. And when he's born.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. Because basically from, you know, counting back from the time we already know that he was a warrior. People try to kind of calculate. So the most likely date is really kind of late 40s. 1040s. But yeah, and sorry to disappoint you, or maybe this is cheerful news, but actually people did get their hands dirty, or at least bloody coming from the aristocracy. So that is where he came from. We know for his father, who was Diego Lenas, who was definitely from the aristocracy. And one Source from the 12th century mentions that his mother was also from the aristocracy. But there are debates about who exactly she was. He would have been taught how to ride a horse, equestrian skills, how to hunt, how to use weapons. He probably served some kind of military apprenticeship. He was taught some sort of rudiments of writing and perhaps reading. Even though we don't really know anything for him as such, we can be fairly certain from these analogies. We know that he appeared at the court of the then Infanta Sancho, so Prince, who later on became Sancho II. So in the early 1060s, he appears as a warrior. And when Sancho becomes king, 1065, Rodrigo is kind of an established warrior and he leads the king's retinue. So he's clearly in a very high.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's a knight. Are we sort of. Is that where we can sort of pitch him? He's a warrior class, aristocratic and a fighter, yeah. Okay. And you said Sancho ii, he's the king of Leon, Castile. Is that a combination of two kingdoms that have been smushed together?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yes, exactly. So Spanish kingdoms at this time are joined, then separated, then joined again.

[Toussaint Douglas]

So, yeah, quite troubled relationship history. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

We're getting hints that court policies could be messy simply by the kind of the fusion of kingdoms and the breaking up of the taifa. What do you imagine the kind of opportunities are for a knight at this point in Spanish history?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, it all feels quite turbulent and stuff like that. And you mentioned the raiding and stuff like that and the opportunity. So I imagine it's a lot of. It's a lucrative market for a capable knight to make his name and fortune. I think.

[Greg Jenner]

I think that's certainly where we're heading. I think, actually, although in the early phase, he's meant to be loyal to the king, but the king does die. So when a king dies, all bets are off. Right, so tell us what happens.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah, well, I guess sibling rivalry was a whole other thing at the time. So Fernando I, who was king of Leon, Castile, left his realm divided between his three sons. When he died in 1065, oh, he

[Greg Jenner]

did a King Lear.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So, yes, absolute rookie. White Sancho ii, Alfonso VI and Garcia ii. And they immediately started fighting it out. So first Alfonso and Sancho together defeated and exiled Garcia, and then Sancho turned against Alfonso and defeated and exiled him. And then he started besieging a fortress of his sister Uraka, his sister as well, and met a very sticky end because apparently an assassin stuck a spear in his back. But according to later legend, his death was even messier. According to that legend, one of Uraka's nobles pretended to switch sides and went to Sancho and said, I'm going to show you this weak spot in the wall where you can take the fortress. So lured the king away, and then when he was very far from his men and he was relieving himself, he was killed. That allowed Alfonso to return and claim the throne.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I'm sorry, but can you still be called an assassin if you kill them with a spear? That's hardly subtle, is it?

[Greg Jenner]

And also, killing someone when they're going to the toilet trousers down, that's just a low blow. I mean, come on.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Literally.

[Greg Jenner]

Literally a low blow. Who's the king now? I've lost track of who Alfonso VI thank you. Alfonso VI is now king.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

He reunites Sloane, Castile.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so he brings the kingdoms back together. Great. Toussaint, how do you think Rodrigo Diaz navigated this new court politics? Now that, you know, the siblings have fought it out, what do you reckon he does?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, you got to get straight in there with the new king, right? All right, that's got to be your go to move, right? I didn't even like Sancho ii. You were always my favorite. Alfonso, come on. The six, let's go.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. You're a smooth talker. Okay, I can. I can see that. Nora, was Rodrigo, you know, was he smooth and loyal to the new king? Did he, you know, fair with a friend or absolutely ride or die with the new king?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, loyalty was definitely not Rodrigo's strong suit. So you're quite right about sort of immediately wanting to kind of get on the good side of the king. So, yeah, he basically switched to Alfonso's court, and he became one of Alfonso's warriors. While at the royal court, he then participated in more raids and extorting wealth. But he also participated as other aristocrats at the court, in legal judgments or judging cases in witnessing documents. Eventually, he fell out with Alfonso. So Alfonso was the protector of one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Toledo. But when there was a Muslim attack, plundering attack against Castile, Rodrigo retaliated by raiding Toledo. So obviously, that put Alfonso in a very nasty spot because one of his own warriors was raiding an area he was supposed to be protecting. So Alfonso ended up exiling Rodrigo. Right.

[Toussaint Douglas]

It feels like he's a guy. He doesn't like having a boss. Feels like he wants to work for himself. You know what I mean? He feels like he's more suited to kind of like being self employed, a

[Greg Jenner]

freelance, if you will. There you go.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Someone who really, on the battlefield, put the lance into freelance. Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

The trees in the back. Yeah. Okay, so he's switching sides already. Not a great sign. Toussaint, if you were forced into exile, what's the one thing you wouldn't want to leave behind?

[Toussaint Douglas]

My pillow, because, you know, I've got a memory foam pillow, so I've worked really hard on that. You know, it really knows me at this point, so I wouldn't want to leave that. I'm not sure what Rodrigo's got. That's as. As. Like that.

[Greg Jenner]

And in terms of family, you'd want to bring your family.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Them as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Maybe after a couple of hours. Yeah, I'd Have a nice sleep. And then I'd bring my toddler with you. Make sure to pick my toddler fashion.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, hang on a minute. I've got a kid, haven't I? I better bring the kid. No, that's fair. I said thing, not person, didn't I? So that's my mistake. But yes. Okay, you'd bring a pillow and your family. That makes sense. Rodrigo doesn't. He just sort of goes bye and leaves his family behind. And what we haven't mentioned, actually, he's married. So who's Mrs. Rodrigo?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

She's Ximena. They married around 1074. She is also from an aristocratic family, related in fact to King Alfonso village. And when Rodrigo goes into exile, she takes their children back to her family. Probably they have three children, two daughters, Cristina and Maria, and probably a son, Diego, although he's only mentioned in a later source.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you think wifeless, childless, Rodrigo gets up to in his exile?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I think he's getting a lot of good sleep, I think that's for sure. He's getting his eight hours in smoking

[Greg Jenner]

like a new dad. Yeah.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Getting his beauty sleep in. I'm a bit jealous, actually, of this Rodrigo.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, understandable. You say getting a lot of sleep. He's a mercenary commander, Nora. Man on a horse. Who's he working for?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah, I'm not so sure. He's getting lots of sleep, actually. And he first tried to go to the court of the Count of Barcelona, who was not interested in him. So he ends up going to one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Zaragoza, and the ruler there, Al Muqhtadir, employs him and then in succession, his son and his grandson. So after he dies and after his son dies. So actually, Rodrigo spends five years serving the Muslim rulers of Zaragoza.

[Greg Jenner]

So he serves three family members in five years because they die. That feels like a pretty chaotic five years. In the Charlton House, the movie you know so well, obviously the one you record with such accuracy. He's a Christian knight who fights against Muslims. Here we have him fighting for Muslims.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Which is a kind of a turn up for the book. I mean, listeners might be thinking, hang on a second. You know, our understanding of the Crusades is Christianity versus Islam. He's working for Islamic rulers and armies. Is this controversial and rare or is this like just par for the course?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

It's very much part of the course. It's not at all unusual at the time. And in fact, Christian kings had more of a chance dying by the hands of other Christians, including their relatives, than dying fighting Muslims. And usually in these wars, Christian Muslim alliances fought against other Christian Muslim alliances. So it's quite a misnomer to sort of see this as some kind of Christian war against Muslims. The rhetoric of Christian war basically coexisted with this kind of much more pragmatic and indiscriminate fighting.

[Toussaint Douglas]

In reality, he's not like this religious zealot kind of warrior. He's just like a member of the gig economy, basically.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah, exactly.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I can relate to that. He's a member of the Precariat. It's a precarious situation. He's just trying to do his best out there.

[Greg Jenner]

But he's quite high status. So I think of him more as a sort of footballer who's like, you know what? I've fallen out with a coach. I'm going to go overseas. I'm going to go and play in the Turkish league. But in 1086, Rodrygo transferred back to his original team from his foreign loan. He went back to Team Alfonso. Did they kiss and make up? Is this a sort of lovely reunion?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

It's unclear whether he initiated this return or the King, because the background was basically a huge shock that was produced by the actions of Alfonso vi. Up until then, kings were collecting tribute. The Muslims got used to that. But Alfonso then decided to send the Taifa ruler of Toledo to Valencia. So he just removed him, gave him another kingdom and annexed Toledo in 1085. And that was symbolically significant because it used to be the capital before the Arab Berber conquest. So this was very important symbolically, but it sent a kind of wave of panic through the Taifa rulers, who then called the Moroccan Almoravids in to help them. So the Almorids invaded from Morocco, from Morocco by the sea, oversea, and immediately defeated Alfonso, who was now absolutely desperate for warriors. So Alfonso pardoned Rodrigo, gave him several forts, also promised him all the lands that he could conquer from the Muslims. He, of course, reunited with his wife and children and continued to amass riches and participate in warfare. But in 1089, so indeed, very quickly, the King and Rodrigo fell out again. This time, the Almoravids, together with Taifa armies, were besieging Aledo. And Rodrigo seems to have found a very lame excuse for not showing up and helping Alfonso break the siege. He actually claimed that he failed to notice the passage of the royal army. He just didn't notice that they went by. So by the time he started, it was too late. The King obviously was not pleased by this. He had Rodrigo's family imprisoned. He confiscated all his lands, and he exiled him again.

[Greg Jenner]

So to stick with the clunky football analogy that I'm happy with, is Rodrigo now in his free agent era? Does he get a Bosman transfer and he can go wherever he wants?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, yes, and actually he's carrying out what Toussaint already predicted for him. So with his retinue, some of his men deserted him, but enough were left to kind of carry out raids for himself and to reward his followers. So basically he's now just. Just trying to build up a power base for himself.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's a startup, he's a entrepreneur,

[Professor Nora Behrend]

he's raiding various taifas, he takes over forts, some of them kind of abandoned forts that he has kind of re fortified. And then he stays there for weeks and months and scouts out the area. And then he starts really focusing on Valencia and collecting tribute for himself from there. Continues to fight against Muslims and Christians fairly indiscriminately, believe it or not. He and King Afonso try to cooperate again and this time fall out because Rodrigo places his camp in front of the kings. Rodrigo claims that this is because he's trying to protect the king, but the king sees it as absolute arrogance. They have various angry exchanges and confrontations to the point where Alfonso wants to have Rodrigo captured, but Rodrigo at that point escapes. Both sides are now basically preparing for some big military showdown. They're also gathering allies. Rodrigo actually allies both with Muslim Zaragoza and the King of Aragon, the Christian King of Aragon. And then Alfonso attacks, attacks Valencia and Rodrigo in this amazing counter move. I don't know what you would call it in football. But instead of defending Valencia, he just counterattacks, attacks Alfonso's lands, Nahera and Rioja. So Alfonso has to give up the siege and return home.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Toussaint Douglas]

It sounds like just such a men thing. This my camp is bigger than your camp kind of thing. You know what I mean?

[Greg Jenner]

It's very petty as well, isn't it?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Very petty.

[Greg Jenner]

Your captain, my captain.

[Toussaint Douglas]

The same side, guys. This is why men need to talk.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay? So he counterattacks and he wins. He's left his ex employer for the third time. They've fallen out constantly. It's sort of on, off, on off, on off. What's next for Rodrigo? Like, you know, he can't just keep this up, can he? He can't just keep allying and falling out with people.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, he actually has his big break at this point.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, right. Okay.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So as the Almoravids are conquering some of the lands of the Iberian Peninsula, there's an uprising in Valencia. And this ruler, Al Qadir, who had been installed by Alfonso VI as his protege, who is very, very unpopular, is now overthrown, captured, and executed. And the city's judge, Ibn Jahaf, takes power.

[Greg Jenner]

So this is just to check. These are Muslims appointed by a Christian king.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Al Qadir was a Muslim. He used to be the king of Toledo. So when Alfonso annexed Toledo, he just moved him to a different typho.

[Greg Jenner]

He just transferred him.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

You're playing in the youth team now. Sorry. Okay. And where is Valencia in the geography of Spain? Is it west Spain?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So. Well, it's on the coast, eastern coast, and it was quite far down in Muslim lands at this point.

[BBC Announcer]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

On the eastern coast. Okay, thank you. Rodrigo has seized this city. He seized Valencia.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, so, I mean, he had been collecting tribute from there. And so he has men who were then either captured during this rebellion or had to flee. And it's at this point that Rodrigo decides to besiege the city.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So the siege means surrounding the city, starving it, raiding the surrounding countryside. According to one report, he actually had people who tried to come out of the city to look for food burned alive. So the siege is brutal, but it's actually not so much using military machinery against the walls. It's just a waiting game.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, you're starving the city out.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. And Ibn Jahaf tries to get help from the Almoravids, who do send an army. But torrential rains and Rodrigo cutting the dams of the river Turia floods the area between the Almoravids and Rodrigo's army. So Rodrigo basically foils this plan to get outside help. And in the end, in 1094, Valencia surrenders, and Rodrigo becomes its ruler now. So he officially calls himself and is called by his subjects Princeps Prince, which is a kind of term for rulers who are not kings. So it's not quite a king, but it's an independent princep.

[Greg Jenner]

Means first in Latin, doesn't it? Sort of the top man.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. And this was the kind of title used for, for example, counts of Barcelona, so people who were independent rulers.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's Prince Rodrigo.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Okay. Yeah, it's gone up.

[Greg Jenner]

It's kind of worked out for him. Yeah.

[Toussaint Douglas]

He's.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. How do you think he rules over Valencia? Do you think he's a kind, progressive ruler, a man of great intellect and compassion? Why are you laughing?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Maybe that question. I'm gonna go with. No, no, no, no.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, fair, Nora. Maybe I led a bit too heavily on the. On the kind of, you know, he's a good guy. I mean, medieval princes and kings, they're pretty brutal as a general rule.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yes. But also, I have to say that the medieval sources were not particularly interested in what kind of a ruler he was. They were much more interested in his military feats. So they talk about, you know, his battles and how he devastated enemy lands, but they say very little about how he ruled. What we know is that he re established the bishopric of Valencia and he subject. So he asked for the papacy to basically directly subject this bishopric to papal power. So it may also confer more independence on him and perhaps kind of some plan to eventually become king. Apparently initially he appointed a Muslim official to oversee his Muslim subjects, but he also clearly was accused of oppressing and extorting the Muslims. There were waves of emigration and expulsion. And according to one account, he had books read out to him and particularly enjoyed the biography of a. A Muslim general who had lived a long time previously. But at the same time, Muslim authors wrote about him very negatively. Ibn Bassam, who was an Andalusi Muslim author at the beginning of the 12th century, recounted how Rodrigo had this judge, Ibn Jahav, also burned to death at the start of his reign and called him a clever but greedy tyrant, swollen with pride. And these Arabic texts basically have all sorts of. Of epithets for him. Not very kind, enemy, dog, accursed. The oppressor.

[Greg Jenner]

Rodrigo the oppressor.

[Toussaint Douglas]

It's not really like a very popular

[Greg Jenner]

boss then Toussaint, do you think this is going to work out for him long term? What do you think his chances are of success?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I think he's going to end up with not much of a kingdom left if he keeps setting everyone on fire. I don't know if that's sustainable.

[Greg Jenner]

You think he's burning through the goodwill? Quite legendary. Okay, Nora, is Toussaint's caution well founded?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, he might have run into that problem, but actually he died. He died in classic move 1099, of natural causes, unlike the film. And he did not leave a male heir, so no son who could have.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, so the son in the source that you talked about, the Diego son, he would have died. Okay, he died and his daughters would inherit.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

His widow Ximena inherited. His daughters were married. They were married, but it was Ximena who then ruled Valencia for three years. But then the Almoravids started to besiege Valencia and Jimena asked Alfonso VI for help. So at this point, yeah, it's difficult to hold the city against this army. And Alfonso does arrive with an army in the City.

[Greg Jenner]

He does.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah, he does.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, fair play, Alfonso.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

He doesn't seem to bear grudges. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

He had every reason to be like, nope.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

I mean, also, of course, remember she was a kinswoman of his. And of course, Rodrigo was already dead, so. Yeah, he arrives with an army, lifts the siege, but he cannot maintain the defense of Valencia so far away from his own land. So basically the city is evacuated. Everybody with their possessions go north to Castile. Alfonso has the city burned, so not to leave it intact for the Almoravids. And. And Ximena also takes Rodrigo's remains and has him reburied in a monastery called San Pedro de Cardena.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. So she takes her dead hubby with her and the bones are repositioned, relocated to a monastery. San Pedro de Cardena, where is that? In Spain? Is that.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So that's not very far from Burgos.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. All right. So is that a sort of nice monastery? Is that a good spot?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

It's a very nice spot. It's very, very far now from any kind of public transportation.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

But it's. So it's quite secluded and of course, most.

[Toussaint Douglas]

You would have liked that.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yes.

[Toussaint Douglas]

You like uninterrupted.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly. He's got his pillow, he's having. Enjoying his kip. Okay, so Rodrigo and Ximena, they both live quite a life. Toussaint.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you feel about him in particular? Are you a fan of what we've told you?

[Toussaint Douglas]

You know what? I am.

[Greg Jenner]

I can relate. Yeah.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I think he was just a pragmatic guy trying to make his way in the world doing what he knew he could do, which was killing and burning people. That bit I less relate to. But the freelance bit, I could get on board with

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[Greg Jenner]

Don't get up yet though. Tucson. We're not done yet because we're going to now talk about the kind of the afterlife of Rodrigo, or rather El Cid, this whole other guy that he becomes. So the historical man we've talked about, we know who he is. But how do you think the story of the El Cid starts to be created? What do you think is the kind of initial turning point point?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Well, I mean, it was no one in that city because they were all burnt alive. So I'M quite baffled as to who was. Who was left to spread this story of El Cid, to be honest, who wasn't smoking. I'm not quite sure who it was. I mean, nor are the Alfonso, Isaac, he hated him. But who was who? Where did El Cid come from?

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, Nora, as a medieval historian, I'm going to pitch two things at you. One would be the Crusades. The first Crusade has happened by this point. The second one would be the Reconquista, which is the Christian Reconquest of Spain. This process that happens over three, four centuries. Is it a religious revival?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So part of it is religious, although the Reconquista is a bit more complicated. It's the kind of later invention in that form. But a series of people and reasons. Actually, partly his descendants. They didn't grow up in smoke, so his daughters obviously had children. And actually some of his descendants became kings eventually in the Iberian Peninsula, kings of Castile. So they have an interest in kind of whitewashing their ancestor. There is this kind of religious rhetoric which is indeed important. And in the 12th, 13th centuries, especially the war, that was still a much messier war on the ground, but it was increasingly accompanied by a kind of ecclesiastical rhetoric which presented it at least as sort of Christian war against Muslims. It wasn't quite matching realities, but you have that very strong rhetoric of the restoration of Christian lands. Two more reasons. One was the creation of a prestigious past for Castile, because Castile, by the 13th century became the most important Christian kingdom. But at the start, it didn't have a particularly illustrious beginning. So now they're looking for Castilian heroes. So here is El Cid. And then finally the monastery, the monastery of San Pedro de Cardena, where he's buried. The monks are fantastic producers of all kinds of stories and tales. And really Foster. Yes, really Foster. They kind of create these fictional links between the live Rodrigo, as if he had already sort of chosen the monastery in all kinds of ways. And they, of course, want to attract donations and also have this very prestigious patron. And they actually try to have him canonized as a saint eventually.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really? And Toussaint, in one medieval text, El Cid's death was famously rewritten. You could probably guess what they say. Cause I think you alluded to it at the beginning of the show. Do you know what it says?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Is it that he rides his horse even though he's dead?

[Greg Jenner]

Yep, that's right.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, he rides his horse, which sounds weird. Inspired his men to victim.

[Greg Jenner]

That's it, right? Yes. Nora. The legend Lenzia de Cardena tells Us that what, they strap into a horse and sort of go, gee it up, you know, and off he goes riding into battle.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, yes, although it's kind of even more intriguing than that because according to this story, which was written in the 13th century and then incorporated into the official court chronicles of the Castilian kings,

[Toussaint Douglas]

the horse was also dead.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

No. Although the horse could also be an important player later on. But According to this, St. Peter comes

[Toussaint Douglas]

a king as well. I'm going to get on this, actually. I'm going to get on this king economy. I'm not making way enough money as a whore. I'm going to be a ruler. Actually, I've changed my mind.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So St. Peter appears to Rodrigo foretelling his death and the victory after. Death. Death.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. So then good news, bad news. Yeah, exactly.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Which one do you want first? And Rodrigo prepares for this for seven days. He doesn't eat, he just drinks a bit of water mixed with myrrh and balsam. So he basically is embalming himself while he's still alive and joins on his wife and closest followers to prepare his corpse for this posthumous. So indeed he dies. A Muslim army led by Bukar attacks. For nine days they fight against them. And of course, people don't know what's going on. Rodrigo doesn't come, doesn't appear, and then after that they put him in his armor, strap him on his horse, fix his sword in his hand, and together with the army, he sort of charges out, helped by no other than St. James the Apostle, along with the heavenly host. So I think you cannot do better than that. And of course they defeat the Muslim army. The text also then deprives the Muslims of the victory of taking, of retaking Valencia, because according to this, Rodrigo wanted to be buried at San Pedro de Cardena. So immediately after he dies. So after this victory, they take the corpse to be buried and everybody wants to participate. So the whole town is empty because all the inhabitants go to bury him in San Pedro so the Muslims can take the city.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's not an evacuation, they've just all gone to the funeral. Yeah, exactly.

[Toussaint Douglas]

A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it? Head guy strapped him.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Well, actually, if I can, because the story goes on, the corpse is so intact that Jimena doesn't want him buried. So for 10 years he actually sits on a kind of stool in the church.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

He performs miracles and then the tip of his nose falls off. And then they bury him. And just one line about the horse, because according to the same text, the horse is then taken very good care of at the monastery. So he has this very long, nice life. And they make sure that there are lots of fillies. So his line is perpetuated.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I'm sorry, what is this text? And what was the person who wrote that text? Smoking? Because this is.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

You want some of that? But he was a monk, I'm afraid.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's jump forward. So he's called El Cid by this point. Right. The name Rodrigo has sort of turned into the Lord. Let's get to Napoleonic times. In 1808, Napoleon invaded Spain. I don't know if you know that. It's not that well known here, unless people are fans of Sharp. And he brings with him a huge army and these soldiers, and they bring, of course, generals and officers and so forth. And there is a sort of tension when they get to the tomb of Rodrigo El Cid, because the soldiers and the generals don't agree on what to do. Right. Can you tell us the story?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. So the soldiers initially just loot the tomb. They're probably looking for gold, jewels, but they also scatter the remains, so they don't really care. But various Frenchmen do care. And of course, through Corneille's drama about the Cid, he's already well known in France as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, so a French play.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So the French play is kind of. Yeah. Made him known in France. France. According to one version, the man who became the director of what is now the Louvre Museum, Dominique Vivant, Baron Denon, kind of gathered the remains and put them back in the sarcophagus, so there's a painting of that. But according to another account, this could not have happened because another Frenchman, a general in Napoleon's army, who was also appointed governor of Old Castile, vindicated to himself this kind of deed of saving the remains. And this guy goes by the very fetching name of Paul Charles, Francois Adrien, Henri Diodonnet Thierbot. And he decided that he wanted.

[Toussaint Douglas]

What names do you want?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah, he decided that he needs to show the locals that the French are not horrific barbarians.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So he decides to have a very big tomb, elaborate tomb, erected in Burgos, so in a very visible, kind of central place, and have the remains of the Cid reburied in this tomb. In the meantime, waiting for this tomb to be constructed, he has the bones wrapped up and stores them under his bed.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Okay, you lost me at that bit. What's the thing for safekeeping.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

He's afraid people will steal the bones.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So then they finish this big tomb, and with great pomp and circumstance and all the local authorities and great fanfare, they rebury the remains. And Thiebaud congratulates himself that he is now getting the respect of the locals for this fantastic deed. Unfortunately, after this, suddenly this small Spanish scholar goes up to him and says, well, you know, this guy never existed. So Thiebaud is quite devastated, and now he really wants to know the truth. So he starts consulting everybody. And finally another Spanish historian tells him that he really does not believe that a man called RUY Diaz, to whom one can attribute all these deeds that are given to the Cid, actually existed. It's a creation of the monks who made him their Don Quixote.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

And Thierbo is really aggrieved, but he doesn't want to let go, just spend

[Greg Jenner]

all this money on a tomb.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Exactly.

[Toussaint Douglas]

So he slept on these bones. It's the most uncomfortable sleep of my life.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

I see you're very focused on sleep. And so Thievault basically decides that the existence of so many stories, so many legends, so many objects associated to the Cid, are proof enough for the real existence of the man.

[Greg Jenner]

Good. We can say that he's true. Rodrigo Diaz, we believe historically existed as a man, but the later legends are added on. And the horse. The horse gets added in extra as well. Okay, we do need to talk about a darker part of Spanish history, which of course, in the 20th century, General Franco comes to power. Do you know anything about Franco I'm familiar?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, with. Yeah. Kind of fascist, right? Kind of in the same era as the Nazis.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, that's right. I think we could sort of call them a kind of nationalist, military dictator, authoritarian. This is a hardline guy. And he uses history as a propaganda tool to lift up his regime. And that regime, it's underpinned by muscular Christianity. Tell us more about that relationship between history, myth and politics.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So Franco emerged, of course, as the victor of the Spanish Civil War, leading the nationalist forces. He was aided indeed by Hitler, Mussolini and Salazar. And once he overthrew the legitimate government, he established his own. And he was in power until he died in 1975. So for the Francoists, El Cid was basically this hero who was also a kind of prefiguration of Franco. So he was obviously a devout Christian who fought for the faith. He was a leader of the Reconquest, he was a loyal vassal of Alfonso vi, but especially he wanted to create a kind of homogeneous Castilian led Spain, which is of course what Francois were. So this is when the Reconquest is really born in a Sense that this idea that the Spanish character was really formed through centuries of warfare. And this warfare was simply Christians against Muslims. Castile was the natural leader and always has been. And Spain had to become much more homogeneous under this kind of Christian, nationalist, Castilian leadership. And El Cid was portrayed as this first leader. And of course, Franco was called Caudillo leader, exact same as. So this leader cult made the Cid very important. He also, of course, was already very much part of Spanish kind of identity. So a historian, Ramon Menendez Pidal, wrote about him. So even Franco's adversaries tried to claim the Cid to some extent.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. That's interesting to me that the Republican army on the opposite side also said, no, El Cid's our guy, because it's to do with the Moroccan soldiers in the city.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yes. So they saw that themselves as the descendants of this liberal Cid and fighting against the Francoists as the Moors and kind of the Muslims in Franco's army.

[Greg Jenner]

And Nora by the Republican side of the Civil War. What do we mean by that?

[Professor Nora Behrend]

So society was so fragmented that Republicans were basically what we would call the political left. And more liberal, wanted to reform Spain. Spanish society wanted the separation of church and state, things like this. And the governments alternated between this left and right. And so at the time when the military coup was arranged, which eventually led to the Civil War, there was a Republican government.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. So not the current American political party, of course.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Absolutely not.

[Greg Jenner]

No, no. This is Spain we're talking about, entirely different country.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

There was more and more of a parallel being drawn by his followers between Franco and the Cid. So it's quite stomach turning sometimes, this adulation with which they talked about both the Cid and Franco.

[Greg Jenner]

And of course, famously, Franco himself wanted to sort of take on the mantle of the Cid. He wanted to sort of be thought of as a modern version. So we've got a lovely. I say lovely. We've got a distinctive mural image we can show you here.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Toussaint, is he riding a horse?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, he is.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Okay. All right, sure.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you want to turn it over? Actually, no. He's not in this one, is it? There's horse. No, it's not horse this time, isn't it? I've seen another one.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

I think there's a horse, but it's not.

[Greg Jenner]

There's a horse in the background.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Rider.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Is that Sid on the horse?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. So, no, no. St. James and the horse. Yeah. Do you want to talk us through this mural, Tucson, Isaac? I mean, there's a lot.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I think Nora's more qualified, but I'LL give it a good shot. So we got what I'm assuming is Franco in the. In the center of it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yep.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Kind of his dress. It's like they put a man going through a midlife crisis, the head of a man going through a midlife crisis who's taken up cycling. You know, it's like late 50s, you know, like spent 10 grand on a carbon fiber bike just. Just racing against the passing of time. And they've just plumped that head on the body of a. Of a knight.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. He's got a sort of pencil moustache, sort of Hitler style. He's kind of balding and quite sort of pasty. He does look like a sort of Basil Fawlty type character. It's not very muscular. And yes, he's got a sword and he's wearing a suit of armor. And surrounding him are modern day 20th century soldiers doing fascist salutes. They're obviously of his army. And then in the background, we have this St. James flying through the air on a flying horse.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. So that's kind of the heavenly host coming to help the Christian cause.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a bizarre image and deeply comedic to us, I think, now. But, you know, this is Franco saying, I'm a great mighty warrior, a man of great martial character. So the myth of El Cid becomes incorporated into the fascist authoritarian regime, but also is used by his opponents, the Republicans.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Yeah. So I mean, just to say, this was originally planned for the Valle de los Craidos. So this was this big monument built with the slave labor for Republicans. Franco eventually was buried there. Finally. Now his remains were removed, but this was to be put up there. It wasn't in the end, but it's supposed to be a kind of. Kind of, you know, apoptosis of Francoist Spain. So the Christian nationalist idea, it was

[Greg Jenner]

painted by an artist. I've never seen anything looking more AI generated in my life.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, it's such a proper AI slop.

[Greg Jenner]

It is, isn't it? So there we go, Toussaint. It's been quite the journey. The story of El Cid, Rodrigo. How do you feel about him now?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, he can't control what happens to him after he died, you know, so I'm still, you know, I'm there with him about kind of. Yeah, I'm a.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I don't know what the Sid is.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, that's why I didn't say it.

[Greg Jenner]

No. Recidivist. I don't know. That's not worth.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Is it?

[Greg Jenner]

All right, well, you know, I'm Glad you're on his team. He definitely did some bad stuff, but I think most people in medieval history did bad stuff. So there we go. Not really a great hero, but certainly interesting guy. And more interesting than the movie made, Sal, I think, like, you know, a freelancer come good or bad?

[Toussaint Douglas]

I. I don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance window. Time now for the nuance window. This is where Toussaint and I sit quietly and snack on our myrrh and balsam so we can mummify ourselves for two minutes while Professor Nora rides into battle, hopefully still alive, to tell us something we need to know about El Cid, Rodrigo Diaz. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Barrett.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

What I think is very intriguing is not simply how Rodrigo Diaz was transformed into El Cid, but how that mythical construct then became a kind of mascot and rallying cry for both the right and the left. And of course, we talked more about the right, although we mentioned the left a little bit, the political left, and even, of course, today, now, the new right and far right again uses El Cid as a kind of prototype white supremacist fighting against Muslims and migrants. But very strangely, he's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism. So somebody who lived together with and learned from Muslims. So I think this is a very interesting mixture. And of course, the left wing use of the Sid goes back already to early modern times, when this legend that I mentioned developed about him enforcing this oath so that the nobles would not accept Alfonso VI until he swears he had nothing to do with his brother's murder, Sancho's murder, that turns Sid into a kind of person who can hold kings to justice, someone who's against tyranny, someone who's a republican. And so in early modern times, he's already represented in this way. And in the 19th century, when in 1820, Colonel Riego reintroduced the liberal constitution, there was a song written for the so called anthem of Riego written for this, which then became the republican kind of national anthem there. The Cid is really kind of the representative of the good guys. The liberals are his sons. So I think this is quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic work.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much. Two minutes on the clock. I mean, amazing. One minute 59.

[Toussaint Douglas]

That was brilliant. That was great.

[Greg Jenner]

So there we go. He's everything to everyone.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah. I think for me, El said to me, I'm going to use El Cid, like, when I have, like, a really bad gig, you know, when I, like, really die. I'm just gonna die. Just to die out. I'm just gonna go like that.

[Greg Jenner]

Strap yourself to a horse?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, strap myself to a horse. And like, when I have to go to like, I don't know, you know, slough for a gig or something, I'll just strap myself onto the horse, ride into battle.

[Greg Jenner]

Anyway, that was lots of fun. Thank you so much for that fascinating insight. It's really interesting, isn't it, how these historical figures can be multi polarized. They can mean so much to different people for different reasons. So what do you know now? Great, well, it's time now for the. So what do you know now? This is our quick fire quiz for Toussaint to see how much he has learned today. Toussaint, last time I think you got a bonus point. So maybe we need to see if that can be done again.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Are you feeling confident?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Look, Nora did set out incredibly. So, yeah, I think I've got a chance. I think I've got a chance.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, all right, well, let's. Let's see if there's a.

[Toussaint Douglas]

You don't sound confident. That is so confident from you.

[Greg Jenner]

I believe in you. I believe in you. But you know, 11 out of 10, it's hard to pull off. So let's try. Okay. Question 1. What's one theory about where the name El Cid came from or meant?

[Toussaint Douglas]

There are lots of theories. So one of the theories that it's actually derived from Muslim. So the Muslims who were under him would call him the Islamic version of that, which I don't have to have.

[Greg Jenner]

Which means the.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Their Lord.

[Greg Jenner]

Their lord, that's right. The Lord of my Lord.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Everyone was called a lord or no one was called a lord. But that's.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, very good. Question 2. Who did Rodrigo work for after being exiled by Alfons for the first time?

[Toussaint Douglas]

It was Islamic.

[Greg Jenner]

It was, yeah, it was absolutely. It was the three. It was the grandfather, the father and the son in Zaragoza. Yeah, very dumb. Question three, what strategy used by Christian kingdoms to plunder land in Iberia was Rodrigo big into similar to Mafia bosses?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah. So it was a protection racket. So they would go in, they would mess things up and then they would say, if you don't want that to happen again, we'll protect you from ourselves.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, exactly. Take out our insurance policy against me. Question 4. Name one reason why King Alfonso and Rodrigo fell out over numerous times.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, so many reasons. Where to start with these two? Gosh, I just don't think they were emotionally available to each other really. But we're Talking historical reasons. One reason why they fell out was Rodrigo disrespected Alfonso by placing his camp ahead of him.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. It's right. And they also, at one point, he didn't show up to an army because he didn't see the army. Didn't see the army. Question 5. What Spanish city did Rodrigo become the prince and ruler of?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Of Valencia.

[Greg Jenner]

It was Valencia. Question 6. What was the name of Rodrigo's wife who also after him ruled Valencia?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Ximena.

[Greg Jenner]

It was very good. Question 7. What role did the monastery of San Pedro de Cardena play in El Cid's life and later legend?

[Toussaint Douglas]

So it was the last resting place for his remains and was the content factory, I guess, for his legacy.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Pumping out the merchants, the myths.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Question 8. In one legend, how did the Cid help his army despite being dead?

[Toussaint Douglas]

He strapped himself to a horse and he rode off into battle and inspired them.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. He had mummified himself. Ready for it. Yeah. Question nine. Where did one of Napoleon's generals keep Rodrigo's bones after the French troops had desecrated his tomb?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Under his mattress.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, absolutely. Question 10. Which 20th century Spanish ruler likened themselves to El Cid in a famously bad mural?

[Toussaint Douglas]

Is that Franco? Franco. Stroke, Basil. 40.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's done. He's done 10 out of 10. Can he get the bonus points? Question 11. What was King Sancho II doing when he was apparently assassinated?

[Toussaint Douglas]

He was relieving himself on a wall.

[Greg Jenner]

He absolutely was. 11 out of 10. He's done it again.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Unbelievable. It's a miracle.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a miracle.

[Toussaint Douglas]

There's no stopping this man, is it? Apostle? It's clearly Stan. He's flying over me with his flying horse and he guided me through to the wind. Thank you, El Cid. Gracias.

[Greg Jenner]

Well done, Toussaint. Very impressive. And thank you, Nora, for a wonderful history lesson listener. If you want more Spanish history, we have episodes, of course, on Al Andalus or Hernan Cortes and Melinson. For more famous medieval warriors, we've covered Joan of Arc. That's all the way back in series one. You have to scroll forever on the app. Sorry. We've done Oenglindur in. And of course, for more Toussaint, we've gone into American history with Frederick Douglass, an extraordinary man, brilliant man and well worth knowing about. And we did the courses, the British Civil wars, so we've covered all sorts of stuff together.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Marvel episode, it was.

[Greg Jenner]

If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. Lucky you. If you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the brilliant Professor Nora Behrend from the University of Cambridge. Thank you Nora.

[Professor Nora Behrend]

Thank you for inviting me.

[Greg Jenner]

It was an absolute hoot. What fun we had. And in Comedy Corner we had the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thanks Toussaint.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Thank you so much for having me. To Greg, my absolute pleasure.

[Greg Jenner]

Very, very good. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we peel back the layers on another larger than life historical mural. But for now I'm off to go and beg some monks to write flattering fan fiction about me after I die.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

You're dead to me is a BBC studios production for BBC radio 4. This episode was researched by adam simcox. It was written by adam simcox, Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, Dr. Emma nagoose and me. The audio producer was steve hanke and our production coordinator was jill huggett. It was produced by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma negus and our executive editor was philip sellers.

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Professor Nora Behrend]

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