Emperor Nero (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me – Emperor Nero (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You're Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Professor Mary Beard & Patton Oswalt
Date: May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "You're Dead to Me" delves into the dramatic and controversial reign of Emperor Nero, exploring both the enduring myths and complex realities of his rule in first-century Rome. Historian Greg Jenner is joined by renowned classicist Professor Mary Beard and comedian Patton Oswalt. Together, they debunk myths, unpick ancient sources, and debate whether Nero was truly the villain history often makes him out to be—or simply misunderstood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nero in Popular Culture and the Problem of Sources (03:33–04:52)

• Nero’s Portrayal:
  • Hollywood and pop culture have painted Nero as an archetype of a "bad" emperor (04:25).
• Sources and Bias:
  • Professor Beard highlights how our main historical sources on Nero—Suetonius, Tacitus, and Cassius Dio—are unanimously hostile (04:52).
  • “They agree on one thing, that he wasn't a good thing. They are quite… we call euphemistry. They're a bit hostile.” – Prof. Mary Beard (04:44)

2. Nero’s Childhood and Family Drama (05:00–07:09)

• Birth and Lineage:
  • Nero was born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus (Latin for “bronzebeard”) in 37 CE into a dysfunctional family (05:00).
  • His father died when Nero was three; his mother, Agrippina, is highly connected, a direct descendant of Emperor Augustus (05:52).
• Imperial Connections:
  • Agrippina marries her uncle, Emperor Claudius (06:36), making Nero stepson and eventually adopted son (thus heir).
• Comedic riff: Discussion about Roman family complications, with coinage of the terms "Hunkle" and "Unbans" for uncle-husbands. (07:09)

3. Path to Power: Poison, Politics, and Suspicion (07:33–10:09)

• Ruthless Elimination:
  • Competition with Claudius’s son, Britannicus, is handled through alleged schemes by Agrippina, then suspected poisonings (poison mushrooms, quick burials) (08:28–09:40).
• Nero ascends aged 16:
  • “How old is he when he becomes emperor?” “16.” – Patton Oswalt & Mary Beard (10:09–10:11)
  • Patton quips: “Great age to run an empire.” (10:11)

4. Matricide and Family Murder Farce (10:24–12:38)

• Nero vs. Agrippina:
  • After growing tired of his mother’s influence, Nero plots (and eventually succeeds in) her murder (10:55–12:38).
  • Multiple farcical, failed attempts precede the eventual hit squad; source stories are "ludicrous and over-the-top," says Beard, highlighting the interplay of farce and horror (11:12–12:34).
  • “There is a temptation to think that this is all very funny, but this is a woman being killed by her son. This is matricide, right?” – Prof. Mary Beard (12:31)

5. Nero the Showman: Theatre, Olympic Games, and Artistic Ego (13:01–16:31)

• Performance Obsession:
  • Nero fancied himself a performer and musician, even locking theatre doors so nobody could leave his performances (13:29).
  • Audience members “faked their own deaths” to escape (13:29–13:42).
• Role Choices:
  • Nero starred in plays about matricide (Orestes), incest (Oedipus), women in childbirth, and even played female roles—fueling gossip (14:32–15:05).
• Greek Tour:
  • Nero took his act to Greece, changed Olympic event rules in his favor, and “won” events—even when he crashed (15:12–15:56).
  • “He is reported even to have won when he kind of fell out of his chariot and didn't finish the course.” – Prof. Mary Beard (15:47)

6. Personal Life and Atrocities (16:45–19:04)

• Three Wives, Multiple Murders:
  • First wife Octavia divorced, exiled, and then killed—with her head reportedly sent to his lover (17:06–17:53).
  • Second wife Poppaea allegedly killed by Nero kicking her during pregnancy (18:36–18:48).
  • Third wife Messalina outlives him and remarries (18:50–19:04).
• Patton’s reaction: “I’m torn because, God, I love the theater.” (19:13)

7. The Great Fire of Rome: Myths and Scapegoats (19:15–21:46)

• Did Nero burn Rome?
  • The famous proverb “Nero fiddled while Rome burned” is discussed; no evidence he set the fire, though Suetonius claimed Nero did it to clear land for his palace (20:17–20:39).
  • “One thing we know about Rome is it was a tinderbox that fires happened in the city… Always.” – Prof. Mary Beard (20:03–20:13)
• Persecution of Christians:
  • Nero blamed Christians for the fire and his punishments were so severe he became the villain in Christian tradition (21:25–22:12).
  • “Nero is said to be the first persecutor of the Christians. Nero is kind of the devil incarnate in Christian teaching.” – Prof. Mary Beard (21:50)

8. Conspiracies & Downfall (24:36–26:27)

• Pisonian Conspiracy (65 CE):
  • Major plot against Nero involving 50+ conspirators, including philosopher-tutor Seneca, who is forced to commit suicide (24:41–25:29).
• Final Coup:
  • A military revolt against Nero in 68 CE leads him to flee and, realizing he is finished, to commit suicide (25:51–26:27).
• Nero’s last words:
  • “The famous one is qualis artifex pereo. What an artist. What an artist is dying when I die.” – Prof. Mary Beard (26:34)
  • Patton: “That’s some confidence, my friend… I gotta remember that for when I die.” (26:51–26:57)
  • Nero dies at 30 (27:02–27:14).

9. The Nuance Window: Historiographical Lessons (27:42–29:48)

• Truth vs. Storytelling:
  • Professor Beard emphasizes the value of studying what stories Romans told about their leaders, regardless of absolute truth:
    • “A long time ago I used to really worry about [truth], but I've sort of become a post-truth person now… these stories… were their way of getting their head around what the power of autocrats was…” (27:42–28:29)
• Legacy and Tangible Remains:
  • Encourages listeners to celebrate how much survives: coins, ruins (“golden house”) (29:02–29:48).
  • “If you’re in Rome, go and see Nero’s golden house, because you still can.” (29:41)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “He’s not called Nero at birth… his name is actually then Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, which means bronze beard.” – Prof. Mary Beard (05:00)
• “How old is he when he becomes emperor?” “16.” – Patton Oswalt & Prof. Mary Beard (10:09–10:11)
• “I would not want my daughter having the remote control at this point, let alone an empire.” – Patton Oswalt (10:15–10:17)
• "It’s like Florence Foster Jenkins… hiring out the theatre and getting all your friends to come.” – Greg Jenner (13:22)
• "All our three main historical sources are pretty clear that Nero tries to and eventually does kill her… There are ludicrous stories and they are hammed up in the sources… but this is a woman being killed by her son. This is matricide.” – Prof. Mary Beard (11:12–12:31)
• “What an artist is dying in me.” – attributed as Nero’s last words (26:34)
• “And historians ought to be interested in things that aren't true as well as things that are.” – Prof. Mary Beard (30:15)

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Nero’s reputation and media portrayals: 03:33
• Nero’s family background: 05:00
• Claudius’s death & rise to emperor: 08:28–10:09
• Murder attempts on Agrippina: 10:55–12:38
• Theatrical ambitions & audience escape stories: 13:01–13:42
• Greek tour & Olympic ‘victories’: 15:12–15:56
• Great Fire and mythbusting: 19:15–21:46
• Christian persecution: 21:29
• Pisonian Conspiracy & Seneca: 24:41–25:29
• Nero’s death and famous last words: 26:29–27:14
• Nuance Window: 27:42–29:48

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Closing Thoughts

The episode paints a rich, often humorous but at times sobering picture of Nero's life and legacy. While his atrocities are undeniable, Mary Beard and Greg Jenner emphasize the importance of understanding the power of storytelling in history—how exaggerated rumors or nasty tales often reveal more about Roman anxieties than about Nero himself. The episode closes by urging listeners to both appreciate the survival of physical evidence (like ruins and coins) and to remain thoughtfully skeptical of the stories we inherit.

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For More on Nero:
Check out related episodes on Agrippina, Boudicca, and Julius Caesar to explore Nero’s world and the figures who shaped his reign.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want a vivid, humorous, and thoughtful recap of Emperor Nero’s life as discussed by Greg Jenner, Professor Mary Beard, and Patton Oswalt.

Transcript

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[Host (Katy or similar)]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are flouncing back to the first century and fiddling while Rome burns as we learn all about Emperor Nero. And to help us tell apart our Julio Claudians from our Flavians, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She is a renowned classicist, author and broadcaster. Maybe you've read one of her best selling books including Pompeii the Life of Roman town, 12 Caesars Women in Power or her most recent Emperor of Rome. You'll know her from all kinds of BBC TV programs including Pompeii, New Secrets Revealed and she's the co host of the acclaimed Instant Classics podcast It's Only Professor Mary Beard. Welcome Mary.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well it's great to be here and be with both of you and even in the company of the Emprenero.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

We'll see, we'll see how we feel about him later. And in Comedy Corner he's an EMM and Grammy Award winning comedian and actor. He's appeared in many of my absolute favorite sitcoms including AP Bio, BoJack, Horseman, Veep he starred in films including Ratatouille, Ghostbusters, Frozen Empire, and Secret Life of Pets 2. Or you've caught him on the celebrity edition of the American Great British Baking Show. He's a culinary master. And you'll definitely remember and you'll definitely remember him from our episode on the American War of Independence. Making a triumphant return is Patton Oswald. Welcome back, Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

Thank you so much for having me back. I can't wait to talk about Nero. I've seen all the Matrix films. He's one of my favorite movie characters.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Ah, okay. Right.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Nero.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hang on. I don't have spell check on my phone. That might. That might explain a lot.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Okay.

[Patton Oswalt]

Sorry.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

That's all right. Last time out, we did the American War of Independence and you knew quite a lot.

[Patton Oswalt]

I actually did. I didn't know I knew so much.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

I wasn't surprised because you're a learned man. But we're now into ancient history. Ancient Roman history. How comfortable are you in the ancient Roman world?

[Patton Oswalt]

Not at all. Literally and figuratively, I'm not comfortable in that world.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Okay. Do you know the name Emperor Nero?

[Patton Oswalt]

I know the name Emperor Nero and for some reason I just picture him looking like Dom DeLuise, but that's just because of the Mel Brooks film.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast. This is the so what do you know? It's where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And you might know Emperor Nero is a bit of a naughty emperor in pop culture. He's in books, he's been plays, he's been played by a lot of famous actors on screen, from Peter Ustinov in Quo Vadis, Christopher Biggins in I, Claudius, to Craig Roberts as the big baddie in the Horrible Histories kids movie that I worked on. But do Hollywood depictions get it right? What does Nero's roguish reputation tell us about Rome? And why were Romans faking their deaths? The theatre. Let's find out. Right, Professor Mary Nero was born nearly 2,000 years ago. So this is a properly old story. And the first thing I have to ask is, what are our sources here? Do we have trustworthy sources?

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, there's quite a lot of sources around Nero. Where the thinner pickings are found is if you're looking for a standard ancient account of Nero A to Z, we've got some. They agree on one thing, that he wasn't a good thing.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Right.

[Professor Mary Beard]

They are quite. We call euphemistry. They're A bit hostile.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

The reviews are in.

[Professor Mary Beard]

The reviews are in and they are not good ones.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So Nero's childhood. Let's get to the actual guy we're talking about. He's not called Nero at birth. What was he called? When was he born? What's his childhood like?

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, he's in a dysfunctional family, I think would be the. Our way of putting it. He's born in 37 CE and his name is actually then Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, which means bronze beard.

[Patton Oswalt]

And he had a bronze beard when he was a baby.

[Professor Mary Beard]

That was what we would call his surname. I've got a bit. Look, I'm called Beard and I don't have one.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Right.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, Nero's surname was Bronzebeard and his dad was a pretty despicable character called Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus. And there's horrible stories told about him, like how he once ran over a child deliberately in the street in his chariot. Happily, perhaps for Nero, he died when Nero was about three.

[Patton Oswalt]

Was his dad in politics or what did his dad do?

[Professor Mary Beard]

All Roman men are in politics.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, okay, okay, nevermind, Sorry.

[Professor Mary Beard]

The key to Nero's success, or one of the keys to Nero's success though, was that his mum was about as well connected within the imperial family as you could possibly be. She was a direct descendant of the first emperor Augustus, and her dad had been the most glamorous prince of the ruling house. So that gave Nero a good start in life.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Even though dad died when he was three, that was the same year as his uncle happened to be assassinated. That was Caligula. I mean, and new emperor Claudius comes to the throne. And before too long we find that mum.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Agrippina.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Agrippina. Oh, yes, sorry. And you've done a program?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

We have. We've got an episode on her so listeners can check back in.

[Professor Mary Beard]

You should go back and listen to the Agrippina program. Because, mum, Agrippina married the Emperor Claudius,

[Host (Katy or similar)]

who was her uncle.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Patton Oswalt]

Okay.

[Professor Mary Beard]

And then Claudius adopted Nero and he got a new name, which is why we call him Nero, because he's called Nero Claudius Caesar Drusus Germanicus. Right? Yeah.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So for short, for short, for short. In the show before we've done husbands who are brothers, we call those brusbands. But now we have uncle husbands. We're thinking maybe Hunkle, how do you feel about.

[Patton Oswalt]

Or usbands Unbans.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Okay. So he's the sort of father in stepdad to Nero. He's given Nero his name. He Already has a son.

[Professor Mary Beard]

But that's going to be a problem. That's going to be a problem in due course. There is a problem there.

[Patton Oswalt]

Okay.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And Nero is getting a royal education because he's now suddenly sort of in line for the throne maybe. So he's getting a fancy royal education. He's got the fanciest of tutors. Have you ever heard of Seneca?

[Patton Oswalt]

I have heard of Seneca. He's a big stoic. Yes.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Yeah.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So Seneca is teaching Nero. So we have a little. We've got a teenage boy who's learning from one of the great philosophers, but also one of the great political men of the Roman Empire. So it's a good. It's a good upbringing, it's good education.

[Professor Mary Beard]

You know, it all looks great for Nero in a way because he's the descendant of Augustus through his mum. He's the adopted son of the reigning emperor. Looks super. The problem is that the reigning emperor's already got his own son. Yeah.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Britannicus.

[Professor Mary Beard]

And he's called Britannicus. Call that, to celebrate Claudius conquest of Britain, names his son specially.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Oh.

[Professor Mary Beard]

The story is that Agrippina started to engineer Britannicus being marginalized. Right. And Claudius does die.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Very passive phrasing there. Does die.

[Professor Mary Beard]

I was using it slightly, slightly euphemistically. Claudius dies and the allegations are that he was poisoned by mush. Poison mushrooms. He's at dinner and he's eating his favorite mushroom omelette or whatever it is. The idea is that the mushrooms are actually poisoned mushrooms or that Agrippina had put poison on the mushrooms.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And the doctor's in on it, supposedly.

[Professor Mary Beard]

That is the story now.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow.

[Professor Mary Beard]

The trouble is, as an old teacher of mine always used to say, it's very hard in the Roman world to tell a nasty case of poisoning from a nasty case of peritonitis.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah. People die of stuff. Right. People can die of ordinary things.

[Professor Mary Beard]

They could die of ordinary things, but everybody always wants them to be die of poison.

[Patton Oswalt]

But so. But when Claudius died was this at a moment that was opportune to move Nero into position. Look.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And also Britannicus, very soon after, also dies of poison. Whoa. Or, of course, might have been epilepsy.

[Professor Mary Beard]

An epileptic fit might have been epilepsy. But people on that occasion had clear grounds for suspicion because it was said to that after he'd keeled over at dinner, they had a quick burial, but the funeral pyre had already been prepared.

[Patton Oswalt]

There are too many clues in this room.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Once Britannicus is out the way, of course, you Know, Nero is now the emperor. He's the emperor of Rome, which is an incredible amount of power.

[Patton Oswalt]

How old is he when he becomes emperor?

[Professor Mary Beard]

16.

[Patton Oswalt]

There you. Oh, perfect. Great age to run an empire.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

I mean, your daughter's what, 16?

[Patton Oswalt]

I would not want my daughter having the remote control at this point, let alone an empire.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Fair enough.

[Patton Oswalt]

God.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Teenage emperors, they don't tend to do too well, which is why Mum tends to run the show from backstage.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, one story is, and it's not without some evidence that the power behind the throne was Agrippina.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

We should say Nero soon gets tired of Mum running the show and starts to plot her death. Yeah, he starts to plot. So Thordius has been murdered. Perhaps Britannicus has been murdered. Perhaps mom is now gonna be murdered. Talk us through how you think he's gonna.

[Patton Oswalt]

He throws a poison party where he invites everyone to sing and dance, and then there's donkeys. And does he do it? Does he throw, like, a party or a big gala and then try to kill her then?

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, you're not so far.

[Patton Oswalt]

Does he do a murder Palooza.

[Professor Mary Beard]

What it shows is how easy it is to these stories. All our three main historical sources are pretty clear that Nero tries to and eventually does kill her. Suetonius has the most possible attempts. Suetonius records that there were three attempts to poison her. But like many Romans, she took a daily dose of antidote in order to kind of to protect her body against poison.

[Patton Oswalt]

There's like a fish called Wanda. He keeps trying to kill her, surviving.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

It's like a farce, isn't it?

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, it is.

[Professor Mary Beard]

The next attempt is even more farcical. The idea is that he arranged for tiles to crash from the roof where she was sleeping. But this is like a Roadrunner cartoon. She had been tipped off. Now, what I think is very well puts us all in the spot here, is that these are ludicrous stories and they are hammed up in the sources, you know, so that they're over the top and unbelievable. There is a temptation to think that this is all very funny, but this is a woman being killed by her son. This is matricide, right?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And in the end, she is murdered,

[Professor Mary Beard]

and in the end, he sends a hit squad.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

All right, let's move on, then. So the interesting thing about Nero is he's not the great warrior. Julius Caesar was the great warrior. He was the man on horseback riding around. The conqueror Claudius had invaded Britain and defeated Britain. You know, so we have conqueror models, but Nero is the theater kid. He's the show tunes guy. Let's talk about what he does.

[Patton Oswalt]

Right, okay.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

He performs in plays.

[Professor Mary Beard]

It's a great age of culture. It is a huge literary renaissance. Not quite clear what Nero's role in that is, but it certainly is. So he himself performs, it is said, that perhaps wasn't as brilliant as he liked to be told it was. And there are amazing stories.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

It's like Florence Foster Jenkins, isn't it? It's sort of like hiring. Hiring out the theatre and getting all your friends to come.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Nero does go, you know, a stage further, so he locks the theatre doors so that once you've got in, so it is said, and that in order to get out, people used to fake their death so they could be carried out.

[Patton Oswalt]

I do that at my shows. People constantly pretend to think, I lock the doors. Come on. Performer doesn't do that.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Captain audience.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. And women, that were the expression, wow, you killed him.

[Professor Mary Beard]

You killed him.

[Patton Oswalt]

Is that where that comes from? Like, man, how'd you do?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

I killed him. I killed him.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Women gave birth.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Because they couldn't get out once they got in and the baby came and they were forced to flatter him. It's said they were forced to say, blimey, brilliant, Nero. Now, there is something pretty ludicrous and pretty unpleasant about flattery, but again, I think it's a place where we need perhaps to stop and say, well, would we say to Prince William or President Trump or someone like that? After seeing them perform? I think that was a really lousy show.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Fair enough. In fairness, Nero supposedly he stars. He plays starring roles in the play Orestes, in which the character murders his mother. He plays in Oedipus, in which the character has incestuous relationships and he plays Hercules. And also, of course, he plays women roles. And also there's a play called Canasi, I think, in childbirth, which, again, again, incest. So if he's a guy who's like, trying to sort of say, I didn't have incestuous relations with my mum, it's quite on the nose to then perform in numerous plays about incessant. Wow.

[Patton Oswalt]

Hiding in plain sight. Maybe I dare you to call me out.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Maybe it's where the boundary is between the gossip and the hiding in plain sight. That's very hard to do.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

The important thing here, Patton, is that Nero took it on tour. Do you know where he toured?

[Patton Oswalt]

I mean, did he tour through every land that they conquered or where would he tour?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

He went to the most cultured place the Roman emperor could go to, the land of culture. The land of philosophy, Greece. He did? Oh, yeah. He took it on tour to Greece

[Professor Mary Beard]

and he went round.

[Patton Oswalt]

And what did they think?

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, he went round all the major games, the Olympic Games, the Isthmian Games and all the others.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

He changed all the events in the Olympics, the things that he liked, and he won everything.

[Patton Oswalt]

Wow. So he was a really good athlete is what you're saying?

[Professor Mary Beard]

Well, he is reported even to have won when he kind of fell out of his chariot and didn't finish the course.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So he crashes in that. But they declare him the winner. He comes home with all his garden prizes, he has a big triumph back in Rome.

[Professor Mary Beard]

I'm on Nero's side here.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Okay. All right.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Maybe. Maybe if the Romans had spent more time having triumphal processions and celebrating people who were good at arts and culture, the world might possibly have been a nicer place.

[Patton Oswalt]

So you're saying shows like the Voice and British Idol are keeping us from worldwide war and conquest?

[Professor Mary Beard]

You could take it. Yes, you could take it.

[Patton Oswalt]

And that's why I did the Great American Baking Show.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Maybe he's trying to find another way of being an emperor and we just not got on that his wavelength.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

It's interesting that he's trying to create a new model of what power looks like.

[Professor Mary Beard]

I mean, I think the jury's out, but that we have to keep that as a possibility. But.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And we're going to do this quickly because it's pretty horrible. And I'm actually going to give a trigger warning to listeners because the content warning, because this is horrible. The violence, the. We're going to talk about enforced suicide. We're going to talk about domestic violence. He was.

[Patton Oswalt]

Don't make any jokes, Patton.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Hang on.

[Patton Oswalt]

Patton, don't make any jokes right now.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

He was brutal to his lovers. He had three wives and horrible men. Right?

[Professor Mary Beard]

Yeah. Nero's first wife is Claudius's natural, as it were, an inverted commas daughter, Britannicus's sister. Okay. A woman called Octavia. And it was a kind of a brilliant move in a way, for sewing up Nero's, you know, perfect. Right. To rule the picture we're given of her is that she was very virtuous. And that what then happens, according to the standard story, is that Nero falls madly in love with somebody else. He divorced her, sent her into exile and then had her killed. And it is then said that her head was sent to Nero's new lover.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Right.

[Professor Mary Beard]

You know, this is about as horrible. I mean, the story is horrible. Whatever the truth, I'm afraid what happens Next to the new woman, a woman called Papaya. Right. Is not much better, honestly, because she's supposed to be a beauty. Nero, nicked from her previous husband. She does get pregnant, he's wanting an heir. And it's when she gets pregnant that he finally divorces. October, Octavia, Nero and Papa have a daughter, but she soon dies. She's made a God very quickly, but she dies. Papaya gets pregnant again. And then in what is one of Rome's also horriblest bits of domestic violence, if it's true, he comes back after an evening out and he hits her in the stomach while she's pregnant and she dies.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

And then he conveniently gets remarried.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah. To a third wife. Messalina.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Yes.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

I mean, it's not. Not very nice.

[Patton Oswalt]

Did Messalina survive or.

[Professor Mary Beard]

She survived him and she actually had more husbands than he'd had in Fair Play.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Good, good. All right, thank you for hearing. So, and what are you making of Nero so far? Obviously pretty monstrous in terms of his personal life.

[Patton Oswalt]

I'm torn because, God, I love the theater.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

No, have you ever heard of the Great Fire? Have you heard of Nero fiddling while Rome burns?

[Patton Oswalt]

I mean, I've heard that phrase.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

In what context have you heard the phrase.

[Patton Oswalt]

In the context of Rome is burning to the ground. And he is. I've always pictured it as him just alone, just amusing himself.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And the Great Fire of Rome happened.

[Patton Oswalt]

Oh, it did.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Did happen.

[Patton Oswalt]

What do they think started it?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Oh, this is a good question. What do you. Okay. Who do you think.

[Patton Oswalt]

I. Again, because of the phrase he fiddled while Rome burned. Doesn't it? To me, it feels like he set the fire. Almost like a gangster burning down a nightclub that he wants to get the insurance on.

[Professor Mary Beard]

You ought to have been an ancient Romanist because you just got the right mindset for this.

[Patton Oswalt]

You're so close.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah. You're on the money all the time.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Because one thing we know about Rome is it was a tinderbox that fires happened in the city.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

It was always on fire.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Always.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Rome was always. At any point, Rome was always on fire.

[Patton Oswalt]

Really?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

And nevertheless, the story arose that Nero had started it. Suetonius thinks he started it in order to clear the ground so he could build himself a fantastic new palace, because that's exactly what he did.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Okay, that's your mob boss argument.

[Patton Oswalt]

That's the mob boss thing. Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

You know, the Golden. It's called the Golden House. He built it. Vast palace, fantastic.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah. What a shame this city just burned down. I guess I gotta buy it new palace here.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Hey, bus, did you just take out fire insurance?

[Patton Oswalt]

What are they? What are the odds? It's weird. All right.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Anyway, another historian, Cassius Dio, he doesn't have that argument so much as saying, look, he just wanted to kind of go down in a blaze, right? He really wanted, as it were, to be like the king of Troy and see his city blaze around him and go down with his city, you know, because it was such a great way to go. Again, there are things to be said in favour of him and against.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Well, okay, so in the against column, he blames Christians.

[Professor Mary Beard]

He blamed the Christians and he punished that there were. There was already a relatively small sect of Christians in Rome. Roman pagan writers thought it was perfectly fine to trash the Christians, but Nero is said to have gone too far.

[Patton Oswalt]

Is this the like throwing Christians to the lions or.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

That comes. It comes.

[Professor Mary Beard]

That comes a bit later. But in the Christian tradition, Nero is said to be the first persecutor of the Christians. Nero is a kind of the devil incarnate in Christian teaching. And it goes back to this. It goes back to him blaming them for the fire of Rome and punishing them horribly.

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[Professor Mary Beard]

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[Patton Oswalt]

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[Host (Katy or similar)]

There is a genuine conspiracy against him. There's a thing called a Pizonian conspiracy.

[Patton Oswalt]

There's this conspiracy of people hating me because I suck.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

It's terrible, arguably justified. Right, this conspiracy.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Yeah, it comes after the fires, the year after the fire in 65 CE.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

This one? Yeah.

[Professor Mary Beard]

And it's in 65 CE and tens 50 odd people are charged with being in a conspiracy to overthrow Rome. Overthrow Nero, not Rome.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Well, he is Rome. He is Rome.

[Professor Mary Beard]

What they want to do is they want to have a new emperor. They've got a guy called Piso as a potential candidate and replace Nero. Now, why it's important in the Neronian story is that Seneca the tutor was said to be implicated in it. So Nero's tutor by this stage has turned against him and is forced to suicide because that's a standard form of Roman execution.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So seneca is implicated, 19 people are executed, 13 are banished, 51 people are charged. Nero crushes the conspiracy, but three years later another one comes along because he has. He's alienated enough people now that people are like, well, look, the first, I mean, he tried five times to murder his mum. You know, if at first he does

[Patton Oswalt]

succeed, they learn from him. You gotta keep showing up and trying to.

[Professor Mary Beard]

This was a military, you know, a military conspiracy. It was a military result.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

This is a coup, right?

[Professor Mary Beard]

It's a coup. It's basically a coup. It's not A few of the kind of not terribly effective elite like Seneca and his friends doing it in Rome. This starts in the provinces and Nero sees the game is up, there's fighting. But in the end it's clear that, that people are turning away from Nero to the rebels. And what he does is he goes out to a suburban villa and he realizes he has to kill himself.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

What do you think his last words are?

[Patton Oswalt]

Patina, Tell me his last words. Or what his supposed last words were.

[Professor Mary Beard]

He's got more than one lot, I'm afraid. But the famous one is qualis artifex pereyo. What an artist. And artifex what an artist is dying when I die.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Some proper ego there, Pat, isn't it?

[Patton Oswalt]

That's some confidence, my friend, isn't it? Yeah.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

With your last gesture to say the world is about to lose a great artist.

[Patton Oswalt]

Yeah, that is ridiculous. I gotta remember that for when I die. Hang on, let me write that down. I'm say that when I die. Alright, go ahead.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

So his famous last words are what an artist in me dies. He is assisted in his death and dies. Aged. How old do you think he is? Pattern.

[Patton Oswalt]

In his 40s, 30s?

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Whoa, what a life, eh? That's the end of Nero's life. He died in 68 CE. The Nuance Window. Time now for the nuance window. This is where Patton and I sit quietly for two minutes while Professor Mary takes to the stage and sings for us. Perhaps, I don't know, unlike Nero, she is not locking us into the theatre. You wait, you wait. We're here. Winningly. So my stopwatch is ready, Mary. Take it away, Professor Beard.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Okay, got two mini nuances. And the first one picks up a theme that we've been, we've been playing with actually quite often in our discussion. Tried to pull that together. And it's what I suppose I call the T word. And it's T for truth. Right. Are the kind of amazing, intriguing, memorable, brilliantly evocative stories that we read about Nero, are they actually true with a capital T. Now we can't actually literally know that. A long time ago I used to really worry about that, but I've sort of become a post truth person now. Because what I think is really important about these stories, and they are important, is that the fact that the Romans told them about their emperors and they sometimes told the same stories about different emperors. And in a way it was their way. I think telling these stories, thinking them up, constructing them was their way of getting their head around what the power of autocrats was. What you might fear about them, what they might do to you. And so, in a way, I think they're our way of getting inside the head of the Romans to think about how the Romans thought about emperors. My second nuance is that it's easier to complain about the gaps in our knowledge about emperors like this than to celebrate what we know about Nero. And, you know, I'm guilty that I'm complaining about what we don't know all the time, but really, we should be turning this on its head, I think. And we should say, what is amazing is that 2,000 years on, we know so much about Nero, not just in the amazing writing that we've been looking at, but we can still hold the coins of Nero. We can still visit Nero's golden house, or at least part of it. We can walk through Nero's corridors and we can see where he sat down or lay down to dinner. So my message to people is, if you're in Rome, go and see Nero's golden house, because you still can.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

You still can. Are you gonna go and see Nero's golden house?

[Patton Oswalt]

I'm leaving right now. I'm going.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

It's interesting, isn't it, the idea of if these are scurrilous rumors, if these are kind of monstrous lies, they still tell us about the Romans.

[Patton Oswalt]

No, that. I love that aspect of it. You can tell what their daily lives and also what they're. It's almost like you can tell the psychological scars that are left on a population by almost the nursery rhymes and myths that they tell later on.

[Professor Mary Beard]

And historians ought to be interested in things that aren't true as well as things that are.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

Yes, yes, Fantastic. Thank you, Patton. And thank you, of course, Professor Mary Beard. If you want more from Patton, of course we have our episode on the American War of Independence, which was an absolute hoot. And for more Nero context, put him in context. We have, obviously, the episode on Agrippina, his mum. We have the episode on Boudicca, his mortal enemy. And we have an episode on the Rise of Judah, Julius Caesar, in some ways a model, in other ways not. They're all very interesting episodes. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends. Subscribe to your Dead to me on BBC Sounds to get episodes 28 days earlier than on any other app in the UK. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the magnificent Professor Mary Beard. Thank you, Mary.

[Professor Mary Beard]

Total pleasure.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the outstanding Patton Oswald. Thank you, Patton.

[Patton Oswalt]

Thanks for having me on again. I really appreciate it.

[Host (Katy or similar)]

And to you, lovely listener, Jo. Join me next time as we reassess another historical figure and possibly decide they're just as bad as we thought. But for now, I'm off to go and launch my own podcast awards in Greece that only I can win. Bye.

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[Professor Mary Beard]

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[Host (Katy or similar)]

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[Host (Katy or similar)]

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[Professor Mary Beard]

Yes, please.

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[Patton Oswalt]

Fantastic.

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