Empress Dowager Cixi: from concubine to ruler of China

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Empress Dowager Cixi: From Concubine to Ruler of China"

You're Dead to Me – BBC Radio 4
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Professor Yang Wen Chun (University of Manchester), Comedian Sophie Duka
Release Date: April 3, 2026
Duration: Approximately 60 mins

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the astonishing life and reign of Empress Dowager Cixi, the last formidable ruler of the Chinese Qing Dynasty. Blending sharp historical insight with comic banter, host Greg Jenner, historian Professor Yang Wen Chun, and comedian Sophie Duka trace Cixi’s journey from a mid-level bureaucrat’s daughter and court concubine to the de facto ruler of China. Across court intrigue, rebellions, international conflicts, and rumors of poison-laced cakes, the panel explores whether Cixi was a maligned villain, an empire-saving heroine, or a bit of both.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: China During the Qing Dynasty

• Backdrop: The Qing were Manchu conquerors, not ethnically Han Chinese, ruling from 1644–1911 (05:14). Their cultural assimilation (“sinicisation”) and dominance were at their peak as Cixi rose to power.
• Forbidden City: Power centered in Beijing (“Peking”), with the imperial family and court residing in the secluded and elaborate Forbidden City (06:55).
• Societal Context: By Cixi’s time, the Manchus’ military prowess had faded. Many nobles were decadent, relying on government handouts (07:49).

2. Cixi’s Origins: Orchid Girl to Imperial Consort

• Family: Cixi’s father held a low-level bureaucratic position. The family lost status after a bribery scandal (09:01; 11:04).
• Early Education: As Manchus, her family outranked Han families, affording her a rare education for women—reading, writing, music, painting (10:24; 10:46).
• Entry to Court: At 16, after her father's death, Cixi and her sister entered a “beauty contest” for Manchu girls vying to be imperial consorts (11:23; 12:19).
• Remarkable Ascent: Cixi started in the 6th of 9 concubine ranks, later rapidly promoted via favor and, crucially, her bearing of the emperor’s only son (15:05; 16:00; 20:43). As Professor Yang Wen Chun explained, “The ladder of success for women is a son.” (16:00)

3. Life at Court: Politics, Power, and…Sack Bundles

• Selection Process: The emperor selected companions via name cards on a tray; the chosen woman would be bathed, made up, stripped naked, “rowed into a duvet and carried” into his chambers (18:12; 19:12).
• Court Dynamics: Intrigue, rumor, and competition among dozens of consorts and the Empress shaped daily life (20:06).

4. Rising to Power: Political Turmoil and Regency

• Emperor Xianfeng’s Weakness: Amid the Opium Wars, domestic rebellions, and foreign invasion, Xianfeng’s escape into “opium, prostitutes, and opera” left the court in chaos (22:50; 23:34).
• Cixi Steps Up: Increasingly, Cixi managed state affairs from behind the scenes, meticulously learning bureaucratic routines (23:54).
• Regency: After Xianfeng’s death (24:49), six-year-old Zaichun (Cixi’s son) became emperor (Tongzhi). Cixi and the Empress were both named Empress Dowager, forming an initial alliance (25:07; 26:05).

Memorable moment:
“She begins by going into his office, there are stacks of documents…[the Emperor’s] just not up to it. And guess who’s up to it?” – Greg Jenner & Professor Yang Wen Chun (24:17)

5. Court Coups, Rivalries, and Poisoned Treats

• Double Dowager Coup: Facing disregard from a male regency council, the two empresses dowager ousted the ministers, consolidating real power (29:11).
• Mother-Son Tensions: When the Tongzhi Emperor came of age, Cixi insisted on arranging his marriage, seeking to control succession (33:22–34:24).
• Deaths and Powerplay:
  • Tongzhi died young (likely from syphilis, officially “smallpox,” 34:44–35:01).
  • Cixi installed her young nephew as the new Emperor (Guangxu) to keep regency (35:19–36:19).
  • Suspicious deaths followed: the pregnant dowager empress and co-regent Xi’an both died, the latter allegedly via poisoned cake (37:28–38:18).

Notable quote:
“She was dying and said to people around her that he must die before I die.” – Professor Yang Wen Chun, about Cixi and her nephew, the disgraced emperor (51:15)

6. Cixi’s Rule: Modernization and Manipulation

• Modernizing Influence: Cixi presided over reforms—navy building, industry, railways, and telegraphy—aiming to fortify China post-Opium War (41:12–41:45).
• Balancing Factions: She skillfully played off Manchu, Han, Mongol, foreign advisors, and internal reform/conservative splits to retain her position (42:28–42:58).
• Suppression of the Taiping Rebellion: Under her indirect command, a deadly Christian uprising was quashed (43:04–43:55).

7. Endgame: Foreign Wars, Boxer Rebellion, and Ultimate Control

• Sino-Foreign Conflicts: The tail end of her reign saw more humiliations—defeat by Japan, foreign spheres of influence, repeated crises (44:06–44:29).
• Reform Crisis & House Arrest: Her attempt to suppress the "Hundred Days Reform" prompted her own nephew (the Emperor) to plot against her, leading to his decade-long house arrest on an island (45:47–46:31).
• Boxer Rebellion: Cixi supported the anti-foreigner uprising, which backfired as Western powers invaded and forced her temporary flight from Beijing (47:14–49:50).
• Final Ruthlessness: Days before her death in 1908, Cixi ordered her nephew’s death, securing her chosen successor—a new child emperor (50:53–51:49).

8. Legacy and Historical Debate

• Villain or Saviour?

  • Cixi is notorious for suspected murders, backroom power plays, and lavish spending, but modern historians (including Professor Yang) argue she may have saved the Qing Dynasty from collapse decades earlier.
  • She promoted stability, but with a ruthless edge.

• Quote from Nuance Window:

  “…if she wasn’t there, China might have disappeared in 1862…that may redeem her.” – Professor Yang Wen Chun (53:12)

• Comedic Reflections:

  • “She entered her villain era and I’m not sure she left it, but she played the game.” – Sophie Duka (52:15)
  • “A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge.” – Sophie Duka (52:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the brutal selection process:

  “They strip her naked, they bung her into a sack, and they drag her into the emperor's quarters.” – Greg Jenner (18:46)

• On court life:

  “The moment comes that the emperor has chosen her for a nighttime activity… She doesn't know she's been selected until suddenly someone knocks on the door.” – Greg Jenner (18:32)

• On political maneuvering:

  “She played the reformers against conservatives… Chinese against foreigners, British against the French. She’s very good at playing.” – Professor Yang Wen Chun (42:43)

• On her final act:

  “She was dying and she said to people around her that he [her nephew, the emperor] must die before I die.” – Professor Yang Wen Chun (51:15)

• On her shifting reputation:

  “If she wasn’t there, China might have disappeared in 1862.” – Professor Yang Wen Chun (53:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:41: Guest introductions, discussion of personal familiarity with China and Cixi
• 05:14: Setting the historical scene: Qing Dynasty, Manchus
• 11:23: Cixi’s entry to the Forbidden City; beauty contest details
• 16:00: “Ladder of success for women is a son” – importance of giving birth to the heir
• 18:12: The bizarre process of emperor selecting a concubine
• 23:34: Emperor Xianfeng’s dereliction of duty
• 24:49: Xianfeng dies, regency arrangements
• 29:11: The Dowagers’ coup against the regency
• 34:44: Tongzhi Emperor’s death, succession crisis
• 38:04: Poisoned cake incident
• 41:12: Cixi’s modernization projects
• 45:47: Coup and imprisonment of Emperor Guangxu
• 47:14: Boxer Rebellion and Cixi's complicity
• 51:15: Cixi’s order to have the emperor executed before her own death
• 53:12: Nuance Window—discussion of her complicated legacy

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Tone & Style

• Historical detail is balanced with irreverent comedy: Sophie Duka’s running commentary and Greg Jenner’s quips keep the episode lively, even during court intrigue and murder.
• Accessible explanation: Professor Yang Wen Chun clarifies Chinese history’s peculiarities, making complex stories digestible even for listeners new to the subject.
• Cultural and feminist threads: The hosts confront Cixi’s legacy, her ambition, gender roles, and how being a woman operator shaped perceptions.

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Conclusion

The episode presents Empress Dowager Cixi as a figure of indomitable will and cunning, whose survival instincts, political acumen, and ruthlessness allowed her to sustain the last Chinese empire through war, foreign pressure, and dynastic crisis. Both deeply maligned and, in retrospect, possibly crucial to China’s persistence and modernization, Cixi is portrayed as a “player” who never left the game—a villain to some, a savior to others.

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For more on Chinese history, check previous episodes on Kung Fu, the Tang Dynasty, and the Terracotta Warriors. For more “badass” women from history, see the show’s back catalogue!

Transcript

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public histor, historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're bouncing back to the Chinese Imperial court and bowing our heads in deference as we learn all about one of the 19th century's most formidable rulers, Empress Dowager Cixi. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's professor of Chinese History at the University of Manchester where she specializes in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books including the recent Railway Imperialism in China and a political biography is Professor Yang Wen Chun. Welcome Yang Wen.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian and writer. You'll recognize her from loads of tv including her glorious victory on Taskmaster. And maybe you've seen her recent sellout stand up show But Daddy, I love her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue including episodes on Ashanti, Ghana, the Naughty Nun, Benedetta Carlini and the history of coffee. It's Sophie Duka. Welcome back, Sophie.

[Sophie Duka]

Yay. Thank you, Shishu. Oh, God. I didn't want to say it because I was like, gearing up to it like a horse up to a jumper. And I was like, you're gonn brutalized. The most basic word in Chinese. Shishi.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Shi Xi.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

That's pretty good.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Thank you, Yangwen.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you, Sophie. Your seventh appearance on the show.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, boy.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, you don't get a medal or anything, but, you know. Thanks.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah. I feel like it's probably numerologically auspicious to hear.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Lucky number seven. We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you.

[Sophie Duka]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

How are you with Chinese history?

[Sophie Duka]

I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the uk.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Did I. I don't know a lot about China and what I know about China has probably been like, filtered through quite a problematic lens. But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China. I went through Shenzhen Airport and it was a great experience.

[Greg Jenner]

Great.

[Sophie Duka]

I loved it.

[Greg Jenner]

Does that count as going to China?

[Sophie Duka]

It doesn't know.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

No. Shenzhen really is not China.

[Greg Jenner]

And does the name Empress Dowager CIXI ring any bells?

[Sophie Duka]

I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like, I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling, which in Roman that is like C I, X I.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. In English we'd spell it C I X I.

[Sophie Duka]

So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these, like, historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilizing. She's feels like she's an icon. I hope we're not gonna learn that she's like a terrible villain now, but we will see.

[Greg Jenner]

She's a terrible villain. So what do you know? And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast the Sowadian Know. This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowaget CIXI is known throughout East Asia where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much in the English speaking world. Then of course, her contemporary, Queen Victoria. Although Cixi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film, the Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades. How did she cling to power for so long? And why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. Professor Yang Wen, before we get into CIXI'S birthday, could you please paint us a picture of China at the time?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

This was the Qing Dynasty and they were from Manchuria. They are Manchus. They're not Chinese. They are people who lived in between Korea and Mongolia and southern Siberia. So they roam around. They conquered China in 1644. It's amazing. 500,000 people came down to China to conquered this country of 120 million. They adopted themselves, they kind of what we call sinicized. They became Chinese in a way, trying as much to keep their own customs and culturals and everything. They ruled China from 1644 to 1911 until the revolution, two and a half years after the Empress Dowager died. So the revolution, she died in November 1908, and the revolution was in September, October 1911. So within three years of her death. So you could see how important she was.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So she's the last Manchu, the last of the Qing Dynasty.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, because after her, it's the little boy, the last emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

What does sinicise mean?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

It's a special word in our field to denote how China indigenized foreigners, starting with people like Matthew Ricci, you know, the Jesuit missionaries who goes to China, wear Chinese clothes and speak Chinese. So by conquering China, the Manchus have lost their own homeland and cultural and everything. Nobody speaks Manchu today.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. And the center of power would be what we now call Beijing. Yeah, but was called Peking then.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Peking, yes. And this other name, Beiping as well. So there's different names and they lived.

[Greg Jenner]

What was their palace like? What was it called?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Forbidden City.

[Greg Jenner]

Forbidden for whom?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

The ordinary people.

[Sophie Duka]

Ah, Sophie, you and me.

[Greg Jenner]

They've been on the throne for four centuries at the start of our story.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And Sophie, given that CIXI ends up ruling China for this five decade stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, a powerful family. A very.

[Greg Jenner]

In terms of what? In terms of money, power, military. What's your vibe?

[Sophie Duka]

I'm going to say military because it feels like, I think Manchu people currently are a minority in China within China. But like it was also, you said a small army that sort of conquered China. So I feel like they must have been a powerful military.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, it's a good guess.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Except. Except because the Manchu warriors who conquered China in 1620s, 1630 and 1640s, by the 18th, 19th century, they're gone. So their children have been sinicised. They didn't have to work because they get handouts from the government. So that's why we have the problem of opium smoking, of going to brothels. So they became decadent.

[Greg Jenner]

Suixi's father is a government official. I mean, what was his title? What level of power would he have had?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So the children of the first, second generation warriors because after they came down to conquer China, they also went to conquer Central Asia, Xinjiang, you know, the Uyghurs and Tibet. So the first few generations were warriors after that, most of the children served in the civil administration. By her father, it was basically mid level provincial, Very low. Yeah. Not very high in the echelon, in the political echelon.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's sort of a bureaucrat, is that right?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

He's a bureaucrat And I would say that explains her drive to rise up.

[Greg Jenner]

Right?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Because his family counts on her.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. I've called her sir. She. That's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, this is her reign title. Reign.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. Okay. So what's her dad call her? What do her family call her?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Well, you know, this, a lot of controversy about her. She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname, and some people think it's Orchid Girl.

[Greg Jenner]

That's quite nice.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So because when she went to the court and taken as a concubine by the emperor, her title was Lady Lan,

[Sophie Duka]

Lady Lai, which means orchid.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, Lan Lan. L A N is orchid in Chinese and it's very, very common for Chinese people to name girls after flowers.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. That's a lovely name, isn't it?

[Sophie Duka]

It's nice.

[Greg Jenner]

Her childhood, she's educated, she can read and write.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So even though her father is mid level, but they're Manchu. Remember, Manchu are overlords.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese.

[Greg Jenner]

I see.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. I would say she had a very good upbringing because she was able to read and write, which later is going to come into her without, you know, a lot of the concubines couldn't read and write much, so she was educated in all these arts and play, harpsichord, paint. She's a very good painter.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She could sing. So in a way they were bringing her up probably in the hope that she will marry up.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes. Sophie. He was caught his hand in the cookie jar.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So he, he lost his job. 1851, when she was 16, they returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died of shame maybe.

[Sophie Duka]

Of shame, probably just some illness.

[Greg Jenner]

May. Likely. Yeah, yeah. So an old family friend had to send them money for the funeral costs so that it feels like they're on hard times.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

They were, they were. That's why, that's why it's important to send her and her sister, both of them, to, to the beauty contest.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

You know.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay. I was going to say. So she's 16 years old. Sophie, what were you like at 16? Were you, did you move to the big city? Were you ready for. To sort of, you know, strike out?

[Sophie Duka]

I mean, I was living on the outskirts of the big city, a place called High Barnett, which is where Oliver Twist met the Artful Dodger. Not fat. Yeah, I was, I was making ventures into the big city. I was drinking like Alco Pops in like Finsbury Park. But I don't think I was setting forth to be the pride or like the hope of my family. I don't think I was entering any beauty contests. I had quite bad acne.

[Greg Jenner]

Ditto.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah, it was a tough time.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a tough time. 16. Yeah. Okay, so she, what is this next stage for her age? 16. Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So what happens is every two or three years the court will have an order edict saying Manchu families who have girls between 13 and 16 or 17, 12 that age must send them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest. So at local levels. Oh no, she's too ugly. Oh yes. She goes forward. So it's a level by level elimination. So by the time you get to the Imperial Court.

[Greg Jenner]

Ms. Manchu.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, Ms. Manchu is a beauty contest.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

But the lucky ones would be reserved for the Emperor. And layer by layer, layer by layer, prince and then servants, lady in waiting.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So three levels.

[Greg Jenner]

Very young though. I mean, she's 16. But you said 13. Some of those girls, that's way too young.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Oh yes, there's 13. One girl became empress in age 13. Yeah, the emperor was 14.

[Sophie Duka]

I mean, it's like. I know that the actual reality is probably quite bleak in some cases, but I feel like it's such an amazing setting for a YA novel. I bet there's so many YA is written about this.

[Greg Jenner]

It definitely is, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So you go through that and there are families who don't want their girls to go through that.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So because you, you're stuck in the

[Greg Jenner]

palace forever in the Forbidden City.

[Sophie Duka]

In the palace, you can't visit your father.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And if the emperor never favors you have a child, then you die like a virgin in the palace. All your life you're stuck there.

[Greg Jenner]

Even into old age. There's no sort of age cap, really.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Okay, you're stuck.

[Greg Jenner]

Classic film, Sophie's Choice. I'm gonna turn to you, Sophie. I mean, it's not a great list of options for Lana here.

[Sophie Duka]

I mean, if you're hot, you're like, sure you're banking on that?

[Greg Jenner]

I never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a 16 year old going to court and she is selected.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. And so was her sister.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Younger sister. But she was given to a prince, so she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she was pretty too.

[Greg Jenner]

She's gunning for the top dog.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

She wants to be the Emperor's concubine.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So what's the competition? How does it work?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So she, when she was chosen, she actually. Because there are nine ranks.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay, nine ranks of emperor's concubine.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. Okay, so there's only one Empress, but the rest are senior, senior, you know, all the sorts of titles. So she actually starts at rank six out of nine. So she's out of nine?

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, it's like sets in maths.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

The thing is, this actually correlates to the statue of your family.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So the Empress at that time was also chosen that she came from an extremely powerful political family. So the Empress actually is a political marriage because the Qing court needs them. Right. So if she started at rank six, I'm not sure whether they need, you know, they need her family, but her father died anyway.

[Greg Jenner]

How many people in a rank, how many rivals does she have in rank six?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Ah, there are emperors who had 50.

[Greg Jenner]

Whoa.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. This Shen Feng didn't have that many because he was very young. He had 11 registered records. You know the records you can look at. He had 11 registered concubines in addition to the Empress.

[Greg Jenner]

We're calling her Lady Lan, but she then gets known as Noble Lady Lan.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

This is her first promotion.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. Yeah, she goes up and up. And we say in Chinese, the ladder of success for women is a son. Oh, okay, so she had a son.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah, we'll get to that. We'll get to that.

[Sophie Duka]

And is her promotion completely at the discretion of the Emperor?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Well, I was going to ask you, Sophie, I mean, you know, if you were Starting on level six of nine.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

How would you try and stand out amongst your competition? You know, there's 10 other girls there.

[Sophie Duka]

10 other girls. This feels very much like lots of TikTok format. It's like the emperor's gonna pop a balloon. If he doesn't like me, I think. I think I would be like, okay, everyone, Everyone here is really pretty.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Sophie Duka]

Maybe I've got like an additional. Maybe I can soothe him.

[Greg Jenner]

Soothe.

[Sophie Duka]

Maybe I can like, I can sing. Like, that's. I'm saying hypothesically, I would do that. If I was to sing. It would not be soothing, but maybe I would like, sort of try and show him some of what I've lear so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty nice or, you know, just have a son.

[Greg Jenner]

Was Sophie correct? Do we know how Lana, or Lady Lan as she's known, how does she grab the emperor's attention?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She was a smart girl, okay? She observed, she stood.

[Sophie Duka]

You're gonna say she did something terrible.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She was a politician. She knew how to cultivate people. So I think what stood her out among the Manchu girl, what made her different is because she grew up in southern China where her father served. She had this air of well brought up, well educated Chinese. Because, you know, there's this prejudice in China against the Manchus because where they're horsemen, hunters, gatherers, they're not literate, they're not educated, but southern Chinese, like where I came from is, you know, we're cultural. There are lots of things. She's talented, but then you need to let the emperor know that you are different from other Manchu girls. She racked her brain basically trying to figure out where. How the emperor goes to work.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, so she's learning his routine.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

He's learning his routine and maybe sing or suddenly pop up along the route and then grab. Because you have to do that.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. The moment comes that the emperor has chosen her for a nighttime activity. Let's say he wants to spend the night with her. Sophie, do you know what the choosing process involves for her? She doesn't know she's been selected until suddenly someone knocks on the door. Do you know what happens to her and that process?

[Sophie Duka]

I think the funniest thing would be for her to be sort of bundled into a sack. But I don't think that is literally what happened. Is that what happens? That is very funny. Well done.

[Greg Jenner]

They strip her naked, they bung her into a sack, and they drag her into the emperor's Quarters.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

After lunch, the emperor will be presented with a tray with all the girls, all your concubines, you have to choose.

[Sophie Duka]

But, like, not literally a tray.

[Greg Jenner]

No, they're not on the tray.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

The name would. On the tray. And if there's one person, one girl you want to spend the night with, you turn it around.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And then the eunuchs would go. And she would have to go through a whole process of bathing, makeup and all that. When evening comes, she's rowed into a duvet and carried into the emperor's bedchamber. Now, there's also the case where if the emperor really likes you, he can go to your palace as well. Because remember the Forbidden City in the back? They're all palaces for all the concubines. Yeah. So there's two ways. But the normal way is you're carrying,

[Sophie Duka]

you're bundled in the sack, and you're taken to him.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing.

[Sophie Duka]

It's a great system. I mean, I. I'm hoping there are no ITV development producers listening to this.

[Greg Jenner]

I was literally. I was gonna say this is a dating show, right?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You know that he chooses the name, he turns it over, and then a girl is kidnapped, brought to his room. And presumably the other girls are gutted that they haven't been chosen. Are they sort of peering out of their door, noticing?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Oh, absolutely. Gossip, conspiracy all the. Every day. Oh, my God. She went. Who was there last night? I mean, there's loads of things going on.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So presumably Yang Wen, Lady Lan, charms the emperor because she ends up, obviously, with a senior career. So she charms the emperor. Can you remind me of his name? Sorry, what was the emperor's name? Is it Zhanfeng?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Xianfeng.

[Greg Jenner]

Zhang Feng.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Xianfeng.

[Greg Jenner]

Zhanfeng.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Xian Feng. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry. Thank you. Xian Feng. Okay. He sort of chooses her, and she becomes his favorite. Is that fair? By sort of age 19 or so, she's the top of the concubines in a way.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

The only difference is that she gave birth to her son.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah, okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

On the 27th of April, 1856, gave birth to a son called Zai Chun. With the son, she can walk with her head high. You know, sometimes you have children, you have a child, it doesn't mean you get to be noble lady.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

No, no, no.

[Sophie Duka]

So she was kind of exceptional.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. She was, like, rocketing, you know, skyrocketing, just being promoted very high. So she knew. And then her talent helped at this point, because it's mid-1850s, we have conflicts, war coming. The Taiping Rebellion, the domestic rebels and the British coming Second Opium War. The Russians were annexing land in the north, so it's a lot of trouble. The young emperor really was not fit for the job.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. He's only a few years older than her, isn't he?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, he's in his early 20s.

[Greg Jenner]

And yes, she's promoted. And every time she's promoted, she gets a new name. She goes from Lan Er to Lady Lan. Then she becomes Concubine Yi. Then when she has a child, Concubine Yi, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank, becomes Consort Yi.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

And then one year later, she becomes Noble Consort Yi and she goes to the third. So she started at level six and she goes to level three.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Which is as high as you can go.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Phenomenal.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Unless she can't be Empress because the Empress was already there. The Empress is like the first wife you never touch. You can't touch her. You can't touch her because a political marriage.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So by the age of 21, she has had the names Lan, Er, Lady Lan, Concubign Yi, Consort Yi, Noble Consort Yi. She's had more eras than Taylor Swift.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

Just constantly name changing.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah. I think you should never stop reinventing yourself.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

I mean, you are like eight different people before you turn 25. Yeah, she's just professionalized that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So she's a mum at 21. Mum to the princess. And then you mentioned these sort of these wars, this turmoil. Yeah, this is a huge, ongoing problem. So the Opium wars, there are two. One of them had broken out when she was a child.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the First Opium War.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. And in 1856, the Second Opium War broke out. And this was at the time there was another huge rebellion, the Christianity inspired rebellion in China. So the Xianfeng Emperor in his twenties was battered by both domestic rebellion and foreign invasion, with the Russians encroaching in Northeast China in his homeland, Nigeria. So he really couldn't handle all this. So instead of actually trying to do his job, you know what he did? He took to opium himself. He buried himself in opium. Smoking in prostitutes, entertaining, in opera. He loved opera.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay, a list of three vices.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Rock and roll of the day.

[Greg Jenner]

The first two on this animal. Third one. All right. Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Not picking up or was. Rock and roll.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, fair enough.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

For the rich.

[Greg Jenner]

So during this time, the Emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And we have a young lady who Going, I'll do it.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So she began by. She goes into his office and there's a stacks of documents he needs to go over and decide, you know, somebody, you know, we need £30 million, whatever. Tales. And for the rebels. And there's a disaster here. The people are dying. Right. So there are things that he needs to do to decide, but he's like, you know, he's just not up to it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And guess who's up to it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It's not the Empress who says, I'll do it.

[Sophie Duka]

It's level three.

[Greg Jenner]

Level three, yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

Consort. Consort Yi.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And she loved doing this.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So she's learning on the job.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She's learning on the. And she loves it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And of course, they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. Sophie, do you know what happens to the Emperor?

[Sophie Duka]

He gets real sick from opium.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Gets real, real sick.

[Greg Jenner]

And then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead.

[Sophie Duka]

He gets dead from opium?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. He died in 1861.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, duh.

[Greg Jenner]

Which presumably leaves our Lady Consort Yi in serious trouble. You think, right?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, yeah. Because she's not in favor anymore.

[Greg Jenner]

There's no more Emperor in favor. But of course, she does have a son.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh. Who is the only heir.

[Greg Jenner]

The only heir. So is this where Yangwen we get now? Another name change. We finally get to meet ce.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Hooray. Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Final form.

[Greg Jenner]

Final form. Actually, no. There's more to come. So she now is the Regent on behalf of her little boy.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So what happens? Because the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be Emperor now the original Empress becomes Empress Dowager.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Okay. But because she's the mother of this six year old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got two.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

We've got two. And it's not uncommon in Chinese history, really, when the Emperor's mother, biological mother, and the real Emperor. Because remember, real Empress, you don't touch her. She's always there. Okay, so, but then CIXI is below the Empress Dowager.

[Greg Jenner]

So Empress Dowager number one is Shi An.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan turned Yi turned Cishi.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Wow.

[Sophie Duka]

It's a lot of extended family.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a lot of extended family. And also two women who now have to join forces to run the show. But do they have the same values and.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, there's a lovely Thing. They. They sleep on different parts of the palace. Can you tell us what their nickname is?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Originally, the. The east is bigger than the West.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So the Empress and the. The heir to the throne always lives in the palace, in the East. That's why the real Empress Dowager is called East Empress Dowager. And then cixi.

[Greg Jenner]

It's the West.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

It's the West Empress dowager.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, Cixi west side sounds like a 90s rapper. I'm sure she detracts a two part.

[Sophie Duka]

It really does. Yeah. It's also. It's giving Wicked.

[Greg Jenner]

It is giving Wicked. So the dying Emperor had left Shi' an with a secret instruction. So his Empress, he'd left with a secret instruction concerning the other lady. Do you know what that instruction was?

[Sophie Duka]

Wait, so he left it for Classic his Empress. A secret instruction?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Regards to his top concubine.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Ooh, that's complicated.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow. Okay. Don't let her get with anyone else. Get married to anyone else.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So you think it's a sort of jealousy thing? She can't remarry, no more boyfriends.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, but I think that probably applies by default to both of them.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a bit more extreme than that, yangwyn.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So before the Emperor died, he actually realized this woman is running the show? Yes. So one of his ministers actually advised him to have her killed.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

You know, there is this tradition in Chinese history when the boy is going to be heir apparent and become future Emperor, the mother is killed.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

To prevent the mother's family to become too strong. Yeah. Too powerful. And there has been cases in history where the mother's family took over.

[Greg Jenner]

So the instruction to Shu an is, if there's any doubt, kill her.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

You have my, you know, handwritten.

[Sophie Duka]

Kill the Empress of the West.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes, Kill the West Emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

Surprisingly, Yang Wen, the opposite happens. The two women team up, Right?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

They do.

[Greg Jenner]

They become a kind of double actress.

[Sophie Duka]

Love that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, the Empress's Dowager.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Empress Dowager.

[Greg Jenner]

Dowager. Yeah. Okay, so how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes, they do.

[Greg Jenner]

Right?

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest. Because the Emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers. Eight men. These eight men didn't treat these two women very well as an equal.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Of course. You don't like that, right? It's like, what, I'm Empress Dowager and you're treating me like this?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And they launched a bit of a coup. I mean.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes, yes.

[Sophie Duka]

So they get rid of the ministers.

[Greg Jenner]

They get Rid of the ministers.

[Sophie Duka]

Amazing. This is great.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

This is great.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, no.

[Greg Jenner]

The start of the episode, you said. Bit of a kind of boss lady vibes.

[Sophie Duka]

I'm badass. Yeah. Collaboration.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So far. How do you feel about her? I mean, she's obviously risen up.

[Sophie Duka]

I feel positive about her. Like she's enterprising. I feel like she's evaded at least one murder plot.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Sophie Duka]

She's like, done right by her family. She's had a son.

[Greg Jenner]

So far, you're on the fence. You're on board.

[Sophie Duka]

I'm on board.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, we'll check back in later because maybe it changes.

[Whole Foods Market Announcer]

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[BBC Comedy Promo Announcer]

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[Sophie Duka]

Hello, Mott Doubleat. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that are apparently true. Yes, we do exist. The rumors are true. Ironically.

[BBC Comedy Promo Announcer]

Start listening to that Mitchell and Web sound the complete series one to five. Wherever you get your audiobooks.

[Greg Jenner]

So the two women are running China together. This power sharing, it's fine. While the emperor is a boy that you know Sajun, he's small, he's six, he's little. He doesn't understand the world. Surely when he becomes 13 or 14, he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his stepmom or whatever it is. He's going to want to go solo.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So because he was the only boy, he was really spoiled by both emperors dowagers. So when he was growing up and time for him to take over. He really was not well prepared for the job. You know, he was not a good student. So he didn't, you know, if he didn't want to learn and nobody pushes him.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So he wasn't a good emperor. And then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because can you imagine, 18 years old, gee, I'm an emperor, I could do anything. Right. He fires ministers without consulting his, his two mothers. Right. And of course it doesn't work that way.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And he had a much better relationship with that is biological mother than his biological mother. Because the biological mother is a dominating figure.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

You know, she would, she would flap

[Greg Jenner]

him, she slap him.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And she would slap him with the ruler. In China, if you failed examination or didn't do your homework, you stuck your hands out and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you.

[Greg Jenner]

He's the Emperor of China.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes, I know.

[Sophie Duka]

She's cheating the ruler with a ruler.

[Greg Jenner]

Yay. There you go. That's why we book you.

[Sophie Duka]

One pun.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So he had a much better relationship with the Empress Dowager rather than his own biological mother.

[Greg Jenner]

And he comes of age in 1872. He's going to take the imperial name, Tong Xu Tongzhi.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

But she stalls him. She won't hand him full power yet. Do you know what she demands of him?

[Sophie Duka]

First he has to get married.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, very good.

[Sophie Duka]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

You've got good instincts here, Sophie.

[Sophie Duka]

I don't have mothers in law. Future mothers in law.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. She demands he must get married first. And so what? They choose the girls for him.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Ah, that comes the real interesting story.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Because you have the beauty contest, right? And he's 18 years old, Ms. Manchu.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

He go puffs around.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

All those nice little good looking girls. And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress Zi an likes.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

It's a ranking family political marriage. But this is a pretty girl, very well educated, knew how to be empress and all that. You know, the reason CIXI want her son to marry is because she wants to have a spy, right? To watch him, to control him. So he didn't choose the one his own mother likes. That's the origin of all the problems to come.

[Greg Jenner]

It's another reality TV show, I think

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

it is totally another show.

[Greg Jenner]

Dowager Date Decider, I think we could call it. So things get a little bit tense, don't they? And by 1874, the emperor, he gets ill and I think we know where this story goes, because we've heard it already before. What happens to him this time?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

He died.

[Greg Jenner]

He died?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, the official was smallpox.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

But the real reason, because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting. We think it's syphilis.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah, okay. And so, sir, she. She has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son. There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to cling to power?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, I guess there are no boys at all.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, she finds one.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, she finds one. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

She digs up her nephew. Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So for her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son. So where did she get the other son? Remember her sister was also in the beauty contest and the sister was married off to the brother of the Emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So two sisters marrying into the same family. The elder sister, cixi, marries the Emperor and her younger sister marries the brother. Younger brother of the Emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's a good job, good deal.

[Sophie Duka]

Well done.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Well done. Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Nephew's new Emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So she's on to sort of emperor

[Sophie Duka]

number three, outliving a lot of emperors.

[Greg Jenner]

How old do you think he is?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, I think he is like her

[Greg Jenner]

kid was six initially.

[Sophie Duka]

Initially six. We're all six initially. I think he's maybe about 16.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a good guess. He's three.

[Sophie Duka]

He's three. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

So the new emperor is a toddler, pottering around, coloring on the walls.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And so she's back in charge again, right?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So she's back in the hot seat.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. And a lot of Manchu nobles were against this.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Because this is not natural. And before we go there, her daughter in law, remember her son had an empress, the one she didn't like.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She was actually pregnant.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh boy.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's the natural heir. Possibly. Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She should have been the Empress Dowager waiting for the child to be born. If it's a girl, then there'll be other choices. Right. Because the mansions have been in China ruling for all those years. There's family rules as to who gets to inherit. She just like, no, no rule. I'm the rule. But that pregnant, this pregnant Empress Dowager Empress who was about 18, 19 years old, died three months after the Tungzhi Emperor died.

[Greg Jenner]

Suspicious timing.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Suspicious timing. She was pregnant. We know that for sure.

[Greg Jenner]

And soon after the Empress Dowager Shi an also Dies. Suspicious timing.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And do you know how she was rumored to have been involved in this

[Sophie Duka]

second one with the Empress Dowager, her

[Greg Jenner]

former sort of partner in crime?

[Sophie Duka]

Partner in crime. Women owned business. I feel like a poisoning.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it is a poisoning.

[Sophie Duka]

I feel like that happens with people with flower names.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know what the poison was

[Sophie Duka]

put in a drink?

[Greg Jenner]

No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually it was put in a sweet cake.

[Sophie Duka]

A sweet cake?

[Greg Jenner]

Sweet cake. A Bake off special. And suddenly the dowager Empress Xuan is dead. People at court are suspicious, but they can't prove it.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Nope. Yeah, nothing is proved.

[Greg Jenner]

So now we have one woman running the show because there's a four year old boy over here and only one empress. That's what she wants. So finally, CIXI is the absolute power behind the. She is the throne. Really?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Sophie, obviously you're not gonna commit a crime anytime soon, but if you had to, if you were gonna have to take out a comedy rival, Catherine Bohart, get rid of her now.

[Sophie Duka]

Catherine would never eat anything I served. You can keep that in. How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room. I think if you put free chips in the green room, in any green room in the country, comics are gonna eat it. So I think it would have to be like hot fries.

[Greg Jenner]

The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one. You would lose an entire bell of comedians.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, but I mean, like, I don't mind taking out a night at the Comedy Store

[Greg Jenner]

and she gets a name change again.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Of course.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Can you guess what the name change is this time? I mean, you won't guess, but give us your best.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow. From orchid to search, she too. Is it like from the natural world? Is it like a. Is it a symbol of something or is it like, think more spiritual. Spiritual. Like, is she like everyone's mother?

[Greg Jenner]

Nice. That's a good guess.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, she's like.

[Greg Jenner]

Like world's mother.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah, like the world's mother. A light.

[Greg Jenner]

These are good guesses. Yang Wen, I'm going to come to you. What's the official nickname that she quite likes?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She's called Old Buddha.

[Greg Jenner]

Old Buddha.

[Sophie Duka]

Old Buddha?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So she's Old Buddha now. She is Old Buddha. What nickname would you like to go by?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, thank you so much for asking. As a nickname, in shui, which is an Akan dialect, I would like to be called Sexy Abrawav, which kind of means sexy old woman.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Sophie Duka]

Because I think it's a nickname you can really grow into. It means like grandmother, old woman. So it's kind of like, yeah, Tasty Grandma.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Sophie Duka]

And that's what I would like to be called.

[Greg Jenner]

Would I be allowed to call you that? That feels like. That's not a name I can use for you.

[Sophie Duka]

Tasty Grandma.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, I don't know.

[Sophie Duka]

He.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Saucy Nana.

[Greg Jenner]

Saucy Nana. Yeah. I'll call you Saucy Nana.

[Sophie Duka]

Thank you so much. Also kind of sounds Ghanaian.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics. What do you imagine she's like in terms of China?

[Sophie Duka]

I. I imagine she's not fun.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

I love that.

[Sophie Duka]

I don't think she's. I think. Because I think she's, like, had a lot of time tolerating these wastrel or literal baby kings who are, like, lying around, shitting themselves, crawling around, not doing their work. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings, a bit more punitive.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Sophie Duka]

Is that correct?

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, you think kind of harsh, but effective. Is that your vibe?

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Yang Wen, what is in terms of her public policy, in terms of what she does for the people of China? What can we ascribe to her?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

In a way, she was a good ruler because after the second Opium War, China basically avoided conflict with the west for 20 or 30 years. And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the west, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. She built warships and weapons.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. Railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railway, railways in China. That's her policy.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. So there is one thing that she, on the one hand, is kind of. She's like a man, like a politician, real ruler. On the other hand, she indulges herself. You know, she build gardens and she wants Western luxuries and all that. So on that aspect, you know, she's more like a real concubine or Empress Dowager. And she was also good at keeping. You know, by that time, the. The Manchus were corrupted and don't want to work because they get handouts from the governments. So by that time, it's Chinese officials.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Who are running the empire. So you got Manchu officials, you've got Chinese, you've got Mongols, and you got foreigners coming in advising.

[Greg Jenner]

French, are there.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. The British were there running the customs and all that. So what she was good at is she played them against each other.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So keeping herself at the top. She played the reformers against conservatives. She played reformers against reformers, Chinese against foreigners, British against the French. You know, she's very good at playing.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah. Puppeteering, everything.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So everybody needs her.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. You mentioned briefly the Taiping Rebellion.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, that is a Christian uprising.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Which is interesting, I suppose, because missionaries have been in China for a while.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Christianity has been growing in China.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. And this is a Chinese scholar who thought he was God's Chinese son.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

He was brother to Jesus.

[Greg Jenner]

That's nice.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

He led a rebellion that lasted almost 20 years, to millions of death and almost toppled the Qing Dynasty.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It's a huge. It's a massive rebellion, isn't it? It's not a small little thing. It's. It's a civil war.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She put it down. She put it down in 1864. You know, the rebellion began in 1850 when her husband came to the throne.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

For 10 years, he couldn't do anything about it. And she came to reign from behind the curtain. 1862. In two years time, the rebellion was dead.

[Greg Jenner]

And she did fight with France.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. There was a French war. Yeah. In 1883, 185, and then 1890s, China really was not doing.

[Greg Jenner]

And that's when Japan is the main adversary. So the Sino. Japanese wars.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So, I mean, it's a long list of enemies that she has to face. Right. Christine's within her own country. The British, the French, the Japanese and

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

the Chinese against Manchus.

[Greg Jenner]

It's very messy because Japan has invaded Korea by this point. So Japan's becoming more powerful as well.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And China was defeated. Its navy was defeated as well.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. In 1895.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So it's not going well. And then, of course, her nephew. Son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guanju.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. And the same story with emperors. Chunky birds repeats again.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. So she's like, you can't be Emperor until you're married, and I'm going to choose your wife. Is that right?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

A tale as old as time. Sophie.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

It's terrible.

[Sophie Duka]

The one that she likes.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She picked the one she likes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. You're marrying this girl and there's nothing more to it.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And it's cousins, two cousins. So she married her sister's son to her brother's daughter.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, that's quite confusing. I'm sorry. The family tree in my head just. Just became very gnarled. Lots of branches. Okay. Right.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She wants to keep the power within her family.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan, France and so on. And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

But there is a coup against her, Sophie. And do you know what happens in this couple? Do you know who leads the coom?

[Sophie Duka]

Perhaps coo. I'd say probably led by another concubine.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, nice.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

A rival, sir. She's climbed the ladder.

[Sophie Duka]

Concubine and concubine. Yeah. Someone in the nine levels.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it's a good guess. Yang Amin. It's not a concubine.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you want to tell us who it is?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

It's the Emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

It's her nephew.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Her nephew.

[Greg Jenner]

It's amazing that we've called it a coup because he is the Emperor.

[Sophie Duka]

He's like, hold on a minute.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

It's not a coup.

[Greg Jenner]

It's. It's my own throne. But, yeah, he tries. He tries to get rid of her.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And she does some political judo.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And she gets rid of him.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Well, she put him under house arrest for the next.

[Sophie Duka]

This is the Audacity. I love it.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. This makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island.

[Sophie Duka]

Okay. Island arrest.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Yeah. From September 1898 to November 1908, when he died.

[Greg Jenner]

So 10 years.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

10 years.

[Greg Jenner]

So is he sort of secretly, like. Does the rest of the country know that their emperor is stuck in a shed somewhere?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Really?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the Emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

The Gwangju Emperor. Okay, so there we go. So if you come for the. Well, I was gonna say come for the King. If you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss.

[Sophie Duka]

Sophie, you better not miss.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So her own nephew in house arrest.

[Sophie Duka]

Her own nephew on an island.

[Greg Jenner]

Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah. She's clinging to power, but everything's rotting quite well, Sort of. I was gonna say, in 1900, we get another big military crisis. This one's called the Boxer Rebellion. Do you know why it's called the Boxer Rebellion? Have you heard of that before?

[Sophie Duka]

I hoped it was dog related. I'm feeling from context clues that it's not the Boxer Rebellion. Is it about actual boxers?

[Greg Jenner]

It's about kung fu, really, isn't it? It's about martial arts. Is that fair? Like the. It's a British name for the people they believe they're fighting have martial arts skills. Is that fair?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So the British, like the people we're fighting, they don't use guns, they use hands.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. Martial art practitioners.

[Greg Jenner]

Practitioners, yeah. So it's a sort of rebellion of traditional martial arts practitioners. Who is their great enemy? Is it the foreigners?

[Sophie Duka]

Yes.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So what happened is, after the Sino Japanese War and Japan defeated China, and all the foreigners came back to China wanting more. The Germans began to colonize Shandong region. And the Shandong region is famous for people who practiced martial arts. And there's a special brand, it's called Harmonious Fists. They fight. They fight you with the fist.

[Greg Jenner]

I feel like it's an oxymoron. Harmonious Fists.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And the Westerners called them boxers.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

So in a way, it's funny, because when the Western powers imposed unwanted treaties on the Chinese government and Chinese government, the Qing government actually accepted it, but the people in Santon says, no, we don't have to accept anything. So they began to uproot railways, telegraph lines, burn churches, kill missionaries, and kill the Chinese converts. And CIXI at this minute was like, wow, that's great. Let them kill all the foreigners.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. So she encouraged them, and some of the princes actually funded them. That's why they went to Beijing.

[Greg Jenner]

But she is forced to flee the Forbidden City. So she, you know, it goes wrong for her.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, yeah. So what happens is the Boxers grew humongously because of royal support, so they went to Beijing, they besieged the foreign Embassy area, you know, all the Britons, French, everybody, and of course, they call for help and their navies comes, you know, came to China to suppress the Boxers. And then, of course, then CIXI realized, oh, my God, foreigners are coming. They're so powerful. I better run. So she actually could be the real culprit in this whole thing, because if she didn't encourage them, they wouldn't have come to Beijing, so the suppression wouldn't have happened. Do you see what I mean? Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So it backfires on her.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. But then she escapes. In August, the night before the British marched into the city and she was disguised as a peasant woman. She doesn't want anybody to.

[Greg Jenner]

No one's believing that. Come on.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So, I mean, you said at the beginning, and we'll say it again, she died in 1908. So she managed to cling to power for seven more years after this huge uprising, this huge rebellion. But obviously she was compromised by the foreign powers coming in. So that final stage of her career is perhaps not very successful. But, Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within days before her death. What's the last thing she did in

[Sophie Duka]

her final days, she knew she was gonna die.

[Greg Jenner]

She's at the end of her life.

[Sophie Duka]

She picked her heir.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, that's certainly part of it, isn't it?

[Sophie Duka]

She decided she, like, I'll try opium.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

She smoked opium all her life.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, she did. Yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

But she knew how to moderate.

[Greg Jenner]

She dabbled in it, didn't she? Yeah, she can handle it. No, she. Well, do you remember the emperor who's still in house arrest?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, yeah. On the island.

[Greg Jenner]

She got rid of him.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, no.

[Greg Jenner]

One day before she died.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Sixteen hours before.

[Greg Jenner]

Sixteen hours before she died.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

She made sure he wasn't gonna come back to power.

[Sophie Duka]

Wow, she's a real bitter lady. A lot better. I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, she just lined up all the dominoes.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. She was dying and she said to people around her that he must die before I die.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, yeah.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

And her nephew. Her own nephew.

[Greg Jenner]

Her adopted son.

[Sophie Duka]

Her adopted son, but her nephew also.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Sophie Duka]

Is her sister still alive?

[Greg Jenner]

I don't know. No.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Her sister died. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Poisoned?

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Possible.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, okay. So she bumped off the emperor. So who was the next. The next person to take over is the last emperor. The famous last emperor.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah, yeah, the last emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's another three year old boy.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yes. So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. Okay. That three year old is the son of the nephew that she murders. So. And of course, he abdicates in 1911, and that is the end of the imperial story.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So quite the life, Sophie.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you feel about CIXI now, Sir Shi?

[Sophie Duka]

I feel resoundingly positive. I feel real good about her because

[Greg Jenner]

I feel like she entered her villain era and I'm not sure she left it.

[Sophie Duka]

Yeah, she didn't really depart from the villain era, but I mean, like, she played the game. She was an incredible player of the game. Also, a little bit of poison. A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge. Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Sophie Duka]

And you can quote me on that. I can't stay mad at her. I know she did some bad things, but I think she is sort of an inspiration.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance Window. That brings us to our nuance Window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm new noble names for ourselves for two minutes. We need I think eight new names each, probably, while Professor Yangwen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager cixi. And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Professor Zhong Xi has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman and because of allegedly the things she did. If you look, in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the Second Opium War. That's number one. Number two, the reform Xi stepped in to stop Hundred Days Reform. If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country, because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos because the political reforms that the Guangxu Emperor wanted. She also has one saving grace. As historians have managed to mine further into the archives, we realized that the Guangxu Emperor who wanted all this radical reform, her nephew Emperor, actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the full time Japanese Prime Minister. There was recommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals that Japan should steer China in 1898. That is something she could not accept, and that is something that today's Chinese would never accept. So that may redeem her.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much. I mean, really interesting.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, my God. I'm like, put him on an island.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, it's a really interesting point. The what if. You know, I don't usually like what ifs with history because, you know, history is chaos and we have to imagine it. But if she wasn't there, the story of China might be so radically different.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Yeah. China needed a strong character.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And she certainly was strong who kept things together. I could see why you're on her side. Yeah. I'm not sure I agree with her, the way she went about things, but. So, you know. Any final thoughts, Sophie, before we do the quiz?

[Sophie Duka]

I fully support. I would. If Saoirse has, you know, 100 fans, I am one of them. If she has 10 fans, I'm one of them. If she has, I've been poisoned by a bad cake. I think it was honestly not chaotic, but like such a full life and so many people to sort of, like, manage and maneuver. And I feel that she, at the end, managed to like, leave. Not kind of disgraced with sort of her legacy intact. I mean, not morally, but in terms of she didn't, like, she didn't die in indignity or Anything like that. And so I think that's pretty impressive.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, dying in your deathbed, still in power is hard as an emperor, isn't it? So what do you know now? But it's time now for the sub. What do you know? Now this is our quickfire quiz for Sophie to see how much she has learned. Sophie, you're ordinarily, you're very good at these quizzes, but I think today has been quite sort of tricky with lots of emperors and nephews and sons.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, yeah. So, yeah, the family tree is overgrown.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, I got 10 questions for you. Let's see how you do. Okay, Good luck. Question 1. What was Cixi's childhood nickname or name?

[Sophie Duka]

Perhaps her childhood name was Leb.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, Lan, which meant.

[Sophie Duka]

Orchid Girl.

[Greg Jenner]

Orchid girl. Very good, superhero. Question 2. By which process did the Emperor choose which concubine he wanted to spend the night with?

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, he had a metaphorical bind of women, all their names on a tray, and he would turn it round if he wanted to see them.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. And they would be kidnapped and delivered to him. How romantic. Question 3. Which lowly rank of consort did Cixi begin in?

[Sophie Duka]

She had. At level six.

[Greg Jenner]

She did.

[Sophie Duka]

Embarrassing.

[Greg Jenner]

She climbed. Question 4. With whom did Cixi stage a coup after Emperor Zhongfeng's death?

[Sophie Duka]

With her fellow Empress Dowager.

[Greg Jenner]

And very good question five other names were the two Empress Dowagers known by geographically speaking. So Sixi and Si An.

[Sophie Duka]

They were known as Si Shi and Si an were known by east and West. And was East. She was West.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good question.

[Sophie Duka]

She was wicked.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 6. What did Cixi insist her son, the Emperor Tongzhi do before she let him assume power?

[Sophie Duka]

He's got to get wifey.

[Greg Jenner]

He's got to get worried. And she wanted to choose one of the four ladies. Question seven. You're doing very well, Sophie. Absolutely nailing this. Question seven. How did CIXI stay in power after her son's death?

[Sophie Duka]

She stayed in power after her son's death by keeping it in the family and getting her sister's son to become Emperor.

[Greg Jenner]

That's it. Three year old nephew install him as Emperor. Classic. Question eight. How did CIXI'S former power partner, Empress Dowager Xi an, allegedly die?

[Sophie Duka]

It was pastry week. And yes, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

A few too many bitter almonds in that cake, I think. Yeah. Question nine. Name one. Seismic war or event that CIXI Lin.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, okay. So there were so many. There was the. I'm gonna pronounce them all wrong. There was the burning of the Sun Palace.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sophie Duka]

There was the Taiping Rebellion. That was the Boxer Rebellion.

[Greg Jenner]

This is amazing.

[Sophie Duka]

With the harmonious fists.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I'm giving you a bonus point because that was amazing. That was fantastic. And this for a perfect 11 out of 10.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Oh God.

[Greg Jenner]

What was surprising about the timing of Cixi's death? Considering the Emperor's death, it was surprising

[Sophie Duka]

that only 16 hours before he was condemned to death on his island.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely. Sophie Duka. 11 out of 10.

[Sophie Duka]

Oh, thank God. Oh, everything's been riding on this for me. Thank you, Yangwen.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you so much, Yangwen. An amazing lesson. I think we all learned so much there. And well done, Sophie. Fantastic memory recall and listener. If you want more brilliant biographies with Sophie Duga, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun, Ramesses the Great, another sort of big powerful name. And of course The Chevalier de St Georges, the great composer. And for more Chinese history, why not listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu, the Tang Dynasty and the Terracotta warriors, of course. All very interesting. If you enjoy the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Professor Yang Wen Jung from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Yang Wen.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Thank you for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

It's been an absolute pleasure. And in Comedy Corner we have the superstar Sophie Duka. Thank you, Sophie.

[Sophie Duka]

Thank you so much. 11 out of 10.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you and to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we raise another overlooked historical subject up through the ranks. But for now I'm off to go and have a lie down. My producers fed me a weird tasting cake before the recording and I feel a bit woozy.

[Professor Yang Wen Chun]

Bye Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

You're dead to me is a BBC studios production for BBC radio 4. This episode was researched by emma mitchell. It was written by emma mitchell, Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, Dr. Emma nagoose and me. The audio producer was steve hanke and our production coordinator was jill huggett. It was produced by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma nagoose. And our executive editor is philip sellers.

[Sophie Duka]

Hello, Alex Von Tunzelman here with a brand new series of history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident which would require all his courage. Dickens remained in the river, helping the

[Greg Jenner]

rescue, assisting the wounded.

[Sophie Duka]

He didn't search out to be heroic.

[Greg Jenner]

He didn't play on his heroism.

[Sophie Duka]

Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds,

[BBC Comedy Promo Announcer]

dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show. From nonsensical maths quiz Number Wang to finding out what James Bond is really like as a party guest, there's something for everyone.

[Sophie Duka]

Hello, Mott Doubleat. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that Are Apparently True. Yes, we do exist. The rumours are true, ironically.

[BBC Comedy Promo Announcer]

Start listening to that Mitchell and Web sound the Complete Series one to five. Wherever you get your audiobooks.