Empress Matilda: civil war in medieval England - You're Dead to Me

Summary5 min read

You're Dead to Me: Empress Matilda – Civil War in Medieval England

Release Date: August 8, 2025

Introduction

In the episode titled "Empress Matilda: Civil War in Medieval England" from BBC Radio 4's You’re Dead to Me, host Greg Jenner delves into one of medieval history’s most tumultuous periods. Joined by historian Dr. Gabrielle Storey and comedian Cariad Lloyd, they explore the life of Empress Matilda and the ensuing civil war known as the Anarchy. This episode weaves together scholarly insights and humorous banter to bring the past vividly to life.

Early Life and Upbringing

Matilda was born around February 1102 to King Henry I of England and Matilda of Scotland. As the daughter of Henry I, the youngest son of William the Conqueror, and a descendant of Alfred the Great, Matilda's royal lineage was impeccable, granting her significant legitimacy in claims to the English throne.

"She is royalty," Dr. Gabrielle Storey (00:06) aptly summarizes Matilda's prestigious heritage.

Greg Jenner highlights her upbringing, noting that royal daughters were often raised in nunneries or at court with their mothers. Matilda’s mother, Matilda of Scotland, was particularly influential, instilling a sense of political authority and cultural sophistication in her daughter.

Marriage Alliances and Early Political Roles

At the tender age of eight, Matilda was betrothed to Henry V, the King of the Romans (Holy Roman Emperor). This arranged marriage was a strategic alliance, intended to strengthen ties between England and the Holy Roman Empire. Greg Jenner explains, "Matilda is crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on July 25, 1110," emphasizing the political significance of this union.

However, the marriage was fraught with challenges. Henry V was sixteen years Matilda’s senior, and by the time they married in 1114, Matilda was just twelve years old. Their marriage, though politically advantageous, left Matilda with little personal choice, reflecting the harsh realities of medieval dynastic politics.

The White Ship Disaster and its Aftermath

A pivotal moment in Matilda’s life was the White Ship Disaster of November 1120. King Henry I’s heir, William, Matilda’s brother, perished in this tragic event, leaving Matilda as the primary heir to the throne. Greg Jenner narrates the disaster:

"The White Ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, including William, leaving Matilda as the sole legitimate heir." (20:16)

This catastrophe set the stage for the ensuing power struggle, as the lack of a clear male heir created a succession crisis.

The Anarchy: Civil War Erupts

Upon Henry I’s death in December 1135, the agreed-upon succession—the oaths sworn by the English barons to recognize Matilda as queen—were quickly undermined by Stephen of Blois, Matilda’s cousin. Greg Jenner recounts Stephen’s swift coronation:

"Stephen is crowned on December 22, 1135, just three weeks after Henry I’s death." (27:08)

This act ignited the civil war known as the Anarchy, a decade-long conflict marked by shifting alliances, sieges, and battles. Matilda, leveraging her military experience gained in Italy, launched multiple campaigns to assert her claim. Notable battles include the Battle of Lincoln (1141), where Stephen was captured, briefly allowing Matilda to claim the throne.

However, Matilda’s attempts to secure her rule were repeatedly thwarted. For instance, her attempt to be crowned in Westminster was rejected by the Londoners, who preferred their existing Queen, Matilda of Blois. This refusal highlighted the deep-seated resistance to a female ruler despite Matilda of England’s legitimate claim.

Key Events and Turning Points

Siege of Winchester (1141): After Stephen’s release, the conflict intensified, leading to the Siege of Winchester, where Matilda faced significant losses, including the capture of her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester.
Battle of Oxford (1142): Matilda’s forces were decisively defeated, forcing her to flee in disguise—a moment Kariad Lloyd humorously compared to Game of Thrones’ stealthy escapes.
Treaty of Winchester (1153): The prolonged struggle culminated in the Treaty of Winchester, where both sides agreed to recognize Henry, Matilda’s son, as the rightful heir. Dr. Gabrielle Storey reflects on the treaty:

“Henry II becomes the first Plantagenet king, marking the end of the Anarchy and the beginning of a new dynasty.” (46:00)

Matilda’s Legacy and the Plantagenet Dynasty

Though Matilda never reigned as queen, her relentless pursuit established her son, Henry II, as England’s monarch, initiating the Plantagenet dynasty. Greg Jenner attributes much of Henry II's success to Matilda’s influence and political acumen:

"She was a bit of a Kris Jenner here, overseeing her sons and supporting her son’s rule." (49:00)

Matilda’s role as a power broker and her contributions to English politics were pivotal, ensuring that her lineage would shape the future of England for generations.

Nuanced Perspectives on Queenship

In the Nuance Window segment, Dr. Gabrielle Storey challenges the traditional view of medieval queens as mere childbearers. She emphasizes that queens like Matilda were formidable rulers who exercised significant power and shared governance roles. Dr. Storey states:

"Medieval queens are not just there to give birth to children; they were powerful, capable rulers involved in diplomacy, patronage, and even military leadership." (52:00)

This perspective underscores the often-overlooked agency and influence of women in medieval politics.

Conclusion

The episode concludes by celebrating Matilda’s enduring legacy and her essential role in shaping English history. Despite the personal and political upheavals, Matilda's efforts laid the groundwork for a strong and influential monarchy under the Plantagenets.

"She's a lot more than just a historical footnote; she's the mother of a dynasty that lasted for centuries." (49:56)

Notable Quotes

Dr. Gabrielle Storey (00:06): "She is royalty."
Greg Jenner (20:16): "The White Ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, including William, leaving Matilda as the sole legitimate heir."
Greg Jenner (27:08): "Stephen is crowned on December 22, 1135, just three weeks after Henry I’s death."
Dr. Gabrielle Storey (52:00): "Medieval queens are not just there to give birth to children; they were powerful, capable rulers involved in diplomacy, patronage, and even military leadership."

Final Thoughts

You’re Dead to Me masterfully blends historical accuracy with engaging storytelling, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Empress Matilda’s life and the complex civil war that almost derailed her rightful claim to the English throne. Whether you're a history enthusiast or just looking for an entertaining deep dive into the past, this episode offers valuable insights wrapped in wit and humor.

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Transcript657 lines

[00:00]
Greg Jenner
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[00:06]
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[01:39]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello Greg here.
[01:44]
Cariad Lloyd
Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of youf're Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds. As we learn all about Empress Matilda and the Anarchy and joining our royal court are two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian of monarchy and sexuality specializing in medieval history. She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Le Mans and and you'll remember her from our episode On Eleanor of Aquitaine, it's Dr. Gabrielle Storey. Welcome back, Gabby.
[02:33]
Greg Jenner
Great. Thanks for having me back.
[02:34]
Cariad Lloyd
And in Comedy Corner, she's a multi talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book, Where Does She Go? Is a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful. Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in the hilarious, ostentatious improv show. She's a busy woman and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of youf Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the arts and crafts movement. It's the wonderful Carrie A.D. loyd. Welcome back, Carrie.
[02:57]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Add ahoy there, Sarah. As they said in medieval times. Yes. Good morrow upon thee. Yes. Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's your classic English greeting.
[03:13]
Greg Jenner
Well, we do need it in Anglo French for this episode.
[03:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Bonjour, sira, c' est le moro.
[03:23]
Cariad Lloyd
Wow. A linguistics class as well.
[03:25]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She said, like, do a lot of things. Speaking French is one of them.
[03:29]
Cariad Lloyd
Now, Carrie, together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome, a sort of empress. We've done plenty of sort of Regency in Victoriana. We've not done medieval together.
[03:38]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
We have not gone back to medieval times.
[03:41]
Cariad Lloyd
And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think.
[03:44]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, do you know what? As ever with me, I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Ackroyd's London, and I only remember two things from Peter Ackroyd's London. And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her. And that's the area of St. Giles was a slum. I'm so sorry, Peter. It's a very large tone.
[04:09]
Cariad Lloyd
It's a very big book. Very heavy. I should remember More popular Queen. Interesting. We will address that later, I think, because that is not what I would.
[04:18]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, no. Well, take it up with Peter Ackroyd, not me.
[04:22]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay, well, look, you know, it sounds like you're not totally clear on the Empress Matilda backstory. Okay? So that's kind of help for us because it means we can give you a fresh introduction.
[04:32]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I don't know none. As they said in the 12th century.
[04:36]
Cariad Lloyd
In French, of course.
[04:37]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Just, we know nothing.
[04:43]
Cariad Lloyd
Fabulous. So what do you know? Great. That brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the Soadian Though this is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roald Dahl story. More so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega, massive medieval novel, the Pillars of the earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played age of Empires 2 expansion pack. Ooh. In which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full blown civil war? And when can a hangover save your? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Gabby, when was Matilda born? You know, where are we in history? And are we talking royal baby?
[05:40]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions. Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna have some cross channel argy bargy going on, but Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror, also known by another name that's not Radio 4 friendly, so we'll keep it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland. So. And Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great, so this gives some legitimacy.
[06:14]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's like. She's royalty.
[06:16]
Greg Jenner
She is.
[06:18]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. Yeah.
[06:19]
Cariad Lloyd
So, granddad, William the Conqueror.
[06:21]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[06:22]
Cariad Lloyd
Dad is King. King Henry.
[06:23]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Henry I. Henry I. Not even like Henry V. Guys, this is Henry the First. The first one.
[06:29]
Cariad Lloyd
They just invented Henry.
[06:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
They just got into that DVD series.
[06:33]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, exactly.
[06:34]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's in the OG series.
[06:35]
Cariad Lloyd
She's the OG series, but they're still figuring it out.
[06:37]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And then her other granddad is Alfred the Great.
[06:39]
Cariad Lloyd
No, no, going away. Go way back. Descend.
[06:41]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Descended from Alfred. Wow.
[06:43]
Cariad Lloyd
Her father was the youngest son of William the Conqueror.
[06:46]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. What happened to the others?
[06:47]
Cariad Lloyd
That's a good question. Do you want to have a little guess for us? What happened to the older brother?
[06:51]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
They died. Hideously poisoned.
[06:54]
Cariad Lloyd
Interesting. You think suspicious death?
[06:56]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, probably at this time, isn't it? The youngest son ends up there. I'm guessing suspicious.
[07:01]
Greg Jenner
So Henry's older brother, William ii, also known as William Rufus, William Redhead, does die in a suspicious hunting accident in the New Forest in 1100. So he is shot, supposedly by accident by one of his servants, but.
[07:20]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, God, so sorry, I thought you were a deer. Because you have the red hair. It's very confusing.
[07:26]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, absolutely. But rather conveniently for Henry, who happens to be nearby, he then just races off to Winchester, supposedly to secure all the money because the treasury's at Winchester. But the fact he runs off so quickly does, you know, raise some suspicions as to whether he is.
[07:43]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Where are you going, Henry? Just got to wash my hands. I mean, go to Winchester. Nothing with. There's all these arrows falling out your backside. Don't worry about it.
[07:51]
Cariad Lloyd
Don't worry.
[07:53]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. So he does so speed himself along and get crowned before William's even cold.
[07:58]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, kid me. Henri. Henri won.
[08:01]
Cariad Lloyd
Henri one. So his older brother has taken an arrow to the back in suspicious circumstances.
[08:06]
Greg Jenner
Yes. And their other brother, Richard, did also die in a hunting accident.
[08:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So there is a little bit hunting.
[08:13]
Cariad Lloyd
It's very dangerous. It's very dangerous.
[08:15]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
You guys, like, you shouldn't be doing that. That's not for you.
[08:20]
Cariad Lloyd
So, Gabby, Matilda is born a royal. When we had our little sort of pre. Chat, you said there's no such thing as a princess in this era, which I found quite interesting.
[08:27]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, really?
[08:27]
Cariad Lloyd
I didn't know that.
[08:28]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[08:29]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But Prince existed kind of the next.
[08:31]
Greg Jenner
Century or so along. So I won't go too much into Welsh history because that's kind of where we get principalities.
[08:37]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And princes, please, always go into Welsh history. Never hold back, because we have been forgotten about for hundreds of years.
[08:45]
Cariad Lloyd
So our instinct to call her a princess is sort of. Sort of. Right. But it's not what they'd call her.
[08:50]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
They would just say she was the king's daughter.
[08:52]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, yeah.
[08:53]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Okay.
[08:53]
Greg Jenner
And refer to her as a lady and so forth.
[08:56]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Lady of the court, basically.
[08:57]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[08:58]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Interesting.
[08:58]
Cariad Lloyd
So what's her childhood like? What? You know, education and.
[09:01]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And if she had a diary, it wouldn't be the Princess Diaries. No, unfortunately, lady of the Court's diaries, which has not the same ring about it.
[09:09]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. I don't think Anne Hathaway's gonna line up to play her at the moment, unfortunately, we have to think of someone else. But we don't know loads, unfortunately, about her upbringing. So royal girls are often raised in nunneries, and sometimes they're at court with their mothers. If they're at court with their mothers and they're traveling around, you know, we know that she goes to Exeter, she's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury. So she does move around of the court quite a bit. Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured. She's very pious. So she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power, so we can see her with a good amount of political authority again, something Julie and Matilda is going to pick up on. And she also gets involved. Involved in mediating between disputes between the King and his archbishops. So Archbishop of Canterbury again popping up. As soon as I thought about the Archbishop of Canterbury, I was thinking of Matilda's son, Henry ii and Thomas Becket, who also get into dispute.
[10:10]
Cariad Lloyd
Spoiler alert. So, yeah, and when we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter, and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter, the gorgeous tropics of southwest England. But she went considerably further at a young age. Do you want to guess where carriage?
[10:25]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
France.
[10:26]
Cariad Lloyd
Further than France.
[10:27]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, Germany.
[10:29]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[10:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
All the way to Germany.
[10:31]
Cariad Lloyd
All the way to Germany.
[10:32]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French room was full.
[10:35]
Cariad Lloyd
Well, it wasn't a school exchange program, Carrie. I'd show you.
[10:38]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, it was to meet a man to marry.
[10:40]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[10:40]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It was marriage exchange.
[10:41]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[10:42]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
You know what, Greg? They look down on that on schools these days. They more encourage you to see the site, eat some food, not pick up a future husband.
[10:49]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, yeah. I mean, often on this show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage. Claxton. It's rare.
[10:56]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I wonder what that was. I'm glad you brought it.
[10:58]
Cariad Lloyd
Yes. No, it's. It's very big. How old are we talking here, Gabby?
[11:01]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, yeah, how old?
[11:02]
Greg Jenner
Eight.
[11:03]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, yeah. Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program, but that is. Lol. Medievals. What is wrong with you?
[11:11]
Greg Jenner
Officially engaged at the age of 8. I will raise that.
[11:14]
Cariad Lloyd
They are. Fine, then. Yeah.
[11:15]
Greg Jenner
No, I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realize that that's quite young to be.
[11:22]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But they would. So, like this is gonna happen. We're just making sure everyone. We've signed the contracts. Yeah, you can see what you're buying. But they're not gonna actually get married for a while.
[11:31]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[11:32]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.
[11:34]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. But she does go out there at 8, right?
[11:36]
Greg Jenner
Yes.
[11:37]
Cariad Lloyd
To Germany. So her father is a Ranger. Her father is Henry, and she's betrothed. To who?
[11:42]
Greg Jenner
Henry. Oh, another one.
[11:44]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Can't call him Heinrich or something. He's also Henry V. Henrik.
[11:49]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[11:50]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Heinrich V. Yep.
[11:51]
Greg Jenner
Heinrich.
[11:52]
Cariad Lloyd
And he is what?
[11:53]
Greg Jenner
And he is of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also, you go by the title of King of the Romans, so it can be King of Germany, King of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on 25th July, 11:10.
[12:18]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So they give her a party.
[12:20]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, so she's. Yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight year old.
[12:27]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, it is. It's a terrible deal. But they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants a Colin the caterpillar cake. Other cakes are available, but it's still not ideal if she's gonna have to marry. Yeah, Das Henry Fumpf.
[12:42]
Greg Jenner
He is 16 years older than her.
[12:44]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He's 16? I thought you're gonna say he's 16. No, he's 16 years older than her.
[12:48]
Cariad Lloyd
So he's what, 24. 24. She's 8. So 8 years old already. The queen of a country. So she started young on the old power front. And obviously she'd have to learn German, right?
[12:59]
Greg Jenner
Yes, yeah, yeah. And Latin is usually the language used by the courts as well. So that will put her in good stead. I mean, yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.
[13:14]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Okay, okay.
[13:15]
Greg Jenner
So, yeah, problematic.
[13:17]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's on an internship.
[13:19]
Greg Jenner
Yes, very problematic in terms of modern eyes. But for the time period, she's doing exactly what she was meant to be doing. And, you know, we do see her being very active as we get onto. And actually it's quite good because it shows that she does have power. She's not just being pushed to one side.
[13:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Right. Yeah. They trust her basically to. They're not being like, we can just use this one as a puppet. They're like, oh, no, this one should be ruling.
[13:43]
Cariad Lloyd
Well, I mean, the interesting sort of next moment, Henry V leaves for Italy because he wants to be crowned the Holy Roman Emperor. So King of the Germans is like, decent.
[13:52]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It's good.
[13:53]
Cariad Lloyd
Holy Roman Emperor is the one up.
[13:54]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He's got a diamond.
[13:56]
Cariad Lloyd
He goes off to Italy. He said to the Pope, I'd like to be home. Holy Roman Emperor.
[14:00]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[14:00]
Cariad Lloyd
Pope says no. What do you think he does?
[14:02]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Kills a Pope.
[14:03]
Cariad Lloyd
He's not quite that bad.
[14:05]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm thinking Game of Thrones here. Slice his head off. He kidnaps the Pope.
[14:10]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. What happens here, Gaby? Where does the.
[14:13]
Greg Jenner
The Pope is held hostage in Rome. He's not transported anywhere.
[14:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
You don't want to be carrying that around with you to Germany. That is a nightmare.
[14:20]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. I mean, the insurance costs on the.
[14:22]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Insurance cost is going to want his own incense dry clean on the way. So just kind of capture him in Rome.
[14:30]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. And this is Henry's first Italian expedition, so there's Exposition 2, which we'll get onto in this.
[14:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Okay. This is awkward. They're not gonna want him back after this.
[14:37]
Greg Jenner
No, no. But he is crowned Holy Roman Emperor, but obviously this is problematic because the Pope's done it under force. You know, it's not quite a legitimate coronation, as you've kind of got the knife in the back, being like, I want to be Holy Roman Emperor.
[14:51]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And what's. Do we know the name of the Pope? Because they normally have quite good names.
[14:54]
Greg Jenner
What place is it? Pascal ii.
[14:56]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Great. Absolutely.
[14:57]
Cariad Lloyd
That's quite a nice Pope. Yeah. Had a Pascal in a while, have we?
[15:01]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, you need to cover Pascal the first, quite clearly. Pascal the second's popped up.
[15:06]
Greg Jenner
So Henry and Matilda then get married. So this is all taking place in 1111. Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.
[15:16]
Cariad Lloyd
They can't even wait till she's 12.
[15:18]
Greg Jenner
Yes. So the problematic marriage Claxton continues.
[15:23]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
If you engage at 8, it's a long time before that claxton is going to stop ringing, isn't it? Yeah.
[15:27]
Cariad Lloyd
I need new batteries for the claxton.
[15:29]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, you're going to need. Gonna need a bigger Claxton.
[15:32]
Greg Jenner
Six years almost of klaxoning is quite a lot.
[15:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So she's 12.
[15:36]
Greg Jenner
Lovely. Great. Yeah. So in 1116, we have expedition number two. Okay, where.
[15:42]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Guys, he's back. Everyone keep your eyes on the Pope. Take the locks, change the keys, keep an eye.
[15:48]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. So Henry's back in order to claim the land of Matilda of Tuscany.
[15:52]
Cariad Lloyd
Another Matilda, another Matilda, another Matilda. Okay. Our third Matilda so far.
[15:56]
Greg Jenner
So she has supposedly arranged for her lands to be passed to Henry, so he comes back and claimed them. But Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress imperatrix Romanorum in 1117, but also, again, not by the Pope, so.
[16:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, I see. So does her husband crown her?
[16:16]
Greg Jenner
No. So Henry's crowned for the second time, Matilda's crowned for the first time. So they're crowned, not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Roman Braga. And therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and like, well, no, I'm Empress now. That's going to be my title. That's what I'M going to use.
[16:34]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Is she like 12 at this point? Like 14 or something?
[16:37]
Cariad Lloyd
She's probably like 15, I think, at this point.
[16:39]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, 15.
[16:40]
Cariad Lloyd
And because the next year she's in charge. Right. Because Henry's off.
[16:44]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. Henry abruptly has to go back to Germany to settle matters in 1118. And he leaves Matilda in charge of Italy, which ain't quite a lot for a 16 year old. But I mean, I. I think a lot of 16 year olds might like being in Italy for a year.
[16:58]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Can't believe you're leaving me in charge of Italy. This is so unfair.
[17:03]
Greg Jenner
But it does show how much Henry kind of trusts her capabilities that he does think at 16 that she can do this.
[17:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Wow.
[17:12]
Cariad Lloyd
In some ways, horrific child marriage. In other ways, supportive husbands.
[17:17]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
One way or the other, I still think that claxon's going.
[17:19]
Cariad Lloyd
I'm still honking the claxon all the way through this episode. So we've met three Matilda so far. Cariad, just as a little fun game. How many Matildas will we meet by the end of the episode?
[17:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Seven.
[17:30]
Cariad Lloyd
Not seven.
[17:31]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Okay, five.
[17:32]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, it's five.
[17:32]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Five. Great.
[17:33]
Cariad Lloyd
And how many Henry's?
[17:34]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, I don't know. How far are we going up to? I know there's eight stressing me out now.
[17:39]
Cariad Lloyd
Not going that far.
[17:39]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It hasn't been a Henry 9, has there?
[17:41]
Cariad Lloyd
Well, Henry VIII was Henry the 9th, but we won't go into that.
[17:44]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
What?
[17:44]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, because there was Henry the young kick. Nevermind. We'll move on this one. 3. Hen you can expect three henrys. Okay, so five matildas and three.
[17:52]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yes, you can expect three henrys.
[17:53]
Cariad Lloyd
Yes. So, Gabby, we've got Empress Matilda. She's Suddenly demoted in 1125.
[17:58]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, what? What?
[17:59]
Cariad Lloyd
You know, she's been ruling Italy. She's the Empress. And then suddenly.
[18:02]
Greg Jenner
Nope, nope. Because Henry V dies, Heinrich passes away.
[18:06]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Henry Vomf is dead. Caput.
[18:10]
Greg Jenner
He goes kaput.
[18:13]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Nine. That's designed Schader. Yeah, Henry Feast. Oh, no. So he just dies, but she's left unprotected.
[18:21]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children.
[18:24]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
No kids. Oh, no.
[18:26]
Greg Jenner
Interestingly, she's not blamed for the lack of no kids.
[18:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, she barely had a bloody moment to do it. Guys, give her a chance.
[18:33]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, but usually the blame is ascribed to the woman. But this case, because obviously Henry has kidnapped a Pope. And you know, he's been quite sinful.
[18:42]
Cariad Lloyd
So the blame's put literally in a different country. Half the time he was in Germany, she was in Italy. It's very hard to do, you know, long distance.
[18:49]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
You can't do long distance. Intercourse. No.
[18:51]
Cariad Lloyd
No.
[18:53]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But, yeah.
[18:54]
Greg Jenner
So they're looking forward to the fact that Matilda. What is she gonna do now? You know? 23. So she's not allowed to rule in Germany. She's got.
[19:02]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Germans are like, get out of here. You're nothing to us, pretty much.
[19:05]
Greg Jenner
She could marry a German prince, enter a nunnery, or go back to England.
[19:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Three options. Enter a nunnery. No, thanks. I'm okay.
[19:16]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. But she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns, two of Henry's imperial crowns with her.
[19:33]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm taking these as well. I don't care if you don't like me.
[19:36]
Cariad Lloyd
I mean, that feels like a theft, really. Because basically, she's been asked to leave. Politely, she says, I'm having this.
[19:43]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's like, all his family. Like, we never like to anyway. She's like, well, I've taken the crowns.
[19:48]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay.
[19:49]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm gonna come back from Tuscany one day as well.
[19:51]
Greg Jenner
She does also take the hand of St. James the Apostle as a. Yeah.
[19:55]
Cariad Lloyd
Because you always need a dead saint's hand just in case.
[19:58]
Greg Jenner
Just protection along the way.
[19:59]
Cariad Lloyd
Fabulous. All right. There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry.
[20:03]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
King Henry ii, He's lost his heir first.
[20:07]
Cariad Lloyd
He's lost his heir. His son. Sir Matilda's brother William, has died by an arrow.
[20:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
By a hunting incident.
[20:12]
Greg Jenner
No.
[20:13]
Cariad Lloyd
Have you ever heard of the White Ship disaster?
[20:15]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
No.
[20:16]
Cariad Lloyd
I mean, it's a kind of huge dynastic catastrophe. Gabby, can you sort of talk us through? It's 1120, right?
[20:22]
Greg Jenner
Yes. 1120. Yep. So November 1120. The English Royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point. So you've had the Dukes of Normandy become the kings of England. So they've got control over both of those areas. Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the White Ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen, and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place.
[20:46]
Cariad Lloyd
Oh, so it's a Nepo hire.
[20:47]
Greg Jenner
Yes.
[20:48]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. Dad did it, so it's my job to do it.
[20:51]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm sure I can do it. I, like, my dad, knew how to do this.
[20:54]
Greg Jenner
Now, as is typical, dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship. And Fitz Stephen also claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night. Not always advisable in the first place, is it? And go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips, the whole ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Ruan.
[21:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you. It was not me. They were also drunk. So you didn't drink? No, no, no, no, no, no, I did not. I was not the one who bought the booth.
[21:47]
Cariad Lloyd
So we. We've lost the heir to the throne. Yeah. William, her brother, who's drowned, he leaves behind a widow and her name is Matilda, of course. Yeah. So that's Matilda number four. So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy because suddenly here's an heir, but a woman. So.
[22:02]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. How do they feel about that?
[22:04]
Greg Jenner
So not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point. But they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the Kingdom of England. Henry decides to get married again, just in case.
[22:15]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Just in case?
[22:15]
Greg Jenner
Yes, just in case he can get another.
[22:19]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm just a girl, so I need get on some other kids as soon as possible, because, God, I can't.
[22:24]
Cariad Lloyd
Even a baby would be better than this.
[22:26]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
A baby boy, at least six months old. We could get him engaged.
[22:30]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[22:30]
Greg Jenner
Henry I, Henry vii, still looking for that ultimate, you know, backup plan in the boy. So Henry gets married to Adelita of Levan in 1121. But he does make plans. So he does ask the bishops and magnate of England to swear o3 times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies. But Anglo Norman's kind of a new dynasty, not very secure, so it's a bit of a precarious matter whether they are going to accept Matilda.
[23:00]
Cariad Lloyd
So three oaths are sworn in 1128, 1131, 1127. So between four years, three oaths. If you were Matilda Carrierd, how would you feel about being demoted from Imperatrix Romanorum to backup plan insurance policy number four?
[23:14]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, look, I would be cool with it because I would think this sounds easier than trying to rule Germany and Italy and control a Pope. But I'm a practical lady. I imagine maybe she felt it was a step down from the Holy Roman Empress of Europe to just being Queen of England. Probably wasn't that exciting at that point.
[23:32]
Cariad Lloyd
Well, I mean, Henry's not done with the Marrying yet, is he?
[23:36]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Of course. Well, she's only young, right?
[23:38]
Cariad Lloyd
She's 24.
[23:39]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
24. But 4 and 20. As Jane Ralston would say, she's almost a spinster, but not quite.
[23:45]
Cariad Lloyd
So he marries her off again.
[23:46]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Okay.
[23:47]
Cariad Lloyd
Again, inappropriate aged husband.
[23:49]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, what is he, like, 80 or something?
[23:51]
Cariad Lloyd
Other way around.
[23:52]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, no, he's like seven.
[23:54]
Cariad Lloyd
He's a teenager. So she's the cougar this time. She's. He's. How old's the new hubby?
[23:59]
Greg Jenner
So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda.
[24:03]
Cariad Lloyd
And the age gap there is what, 11 years?
[24:06]
Greg Jenner
So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage fact in there.
[24:10]
Cariad Lloyd
It's a whole other battery. I'm gonna have to install another one. Sorry. She's not impressed, right?
[24:14]
Greg Jenner
No, she's not.
[24:15]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Because, again, Jeffrey not of Monmouth. That's the end of Jeffrey. I know, guys, That's a good medieval name. Thank you.
[24:20]
Cariad Lloyd
This is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right?
[24:22]
Greg Jenner
Oh, Plantagen. So he is count of Anjou. So Anjou is a central county in France at this point. That's where we get the term Anjevin from Angevin, Kings of England, which might.
[24:33]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Not ingenue, as in not ingenue.
[24:34]
Greg Jenner
No.
[24:38]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Right, Guys.
[24:39]
Greg Jenner
Not that sophisticated, but, yeah. Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor, so she's got a teenager and account count. It's quite a big step down.
[24:51]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
A bit embarrassing.
[24:52]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. Yeah. But Geoffrey has made a night very quickly to try and elevated prestige in the eyes of Matilda. And when his father leaves to marry the queen of Jerusalem, he's then made count.
[25:04]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Does he just come over to England and just is living with her, like.
[25:08]
Greg Jenner
No, she goes over to.
[25:09]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She has to go to Anjou.
[25:11]
Cariad Lloyd
I see.
[25:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So she has to go and live there.
[25:12]
Cariad Lloyd
So she's on her fourth language by now.
[25:14]
Greg Jenner
Third language we would have had Latin, French, German, Italian. Probably a bit of Italian, maybe a smattering of English. But Latin's the language of the court, so English is the language of the common people.
[25:27]
Cariad Lloyd
And English at this time is what we'd call Old English. So it's not modern English.
[25:32]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's eating with a c. Knife and a fork.
[25:34]
Cariad Lloyd
Yes. Okay. So poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter. Her own teenage husband. And she has a baby, and that's healthy. Second child, but it's very dangerous.
[25:46]
Greg Jenner
Yes.
[25:46]
Cariad Lloyd
She nearly dies.
[25:47]
Greg Jenner
Yes. She does think she's going to Die. She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and, you know, sorts out a will effectively, and her bequest because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But son number one is another Henry.
[26:03]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it.
[26:07]
Greg Jenner
Yep. Son number two, the problematic one is Geoffrey. Oh, this is Geoffrey. Yeah. And they go on to have a third son, William as well. So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys. But, yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic.
[26:20]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay, so there we go. So dad, so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135. Meddling dad, he passes away. In 1135, the king of England is dead. And all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock.
[26:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And you know how reliable bishops are in history if they agree something. Those bishops never let you down.
[26:42]
Cariad Lloyd
So the next ruler of England carrier is.
[26:45]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda.
[26:47]
Cariad Lloyd
Yep.
[26:48]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
They're causing a council. Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way?
[26:52]
Cariad Lloyd
I mean, that would make more sense.
[26:53]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But no, they just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it?
[26:59]
Cariad Lloyd
Do you want to talk us through it, then?
[27:00]
Greg Jenner
Yes. Yep. So Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, or Steve. Steve. Shall we call him Steve for a peace?
[27:09]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I've heard of Stephen.
[27:10]
Greg Jenner
Stephen Lefloire. He is crowned, crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December, Stephen is crowned on the 2020 three weeks later.
[27:17]
Cariad Lloyd
So literally, that is a quick party arrangement.
[27:20]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
That's, you know, it's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin a similar age and your families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in GCSEs. Matilda. Stephen's going to Oxford. Like, Stephen's actually become King of England.
[27:32]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, yeah.
[27:33]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Poor Matilda.
[27:33]
Greg Jenner
I mean, it does help. Talking of meddling bishops, Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is big, very handy. But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.
[27:50]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Is she pregnant when that happens? When her dad dies? Oh, my, this poor woman. This is a lot to deal with.
[27:55]
Greg Jenner
And she's also, to be fair, she's battling with her father at this point. So when Henry dies, they're not on good terms.
[28:02]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Complex trauma in the relationship and then a grief happens. Yes, this is a lot stress. We've all been there. Then Your cousin takes the, you know, the royal throne. Yeah. You're less stuck in Normandy.
[28:14]
Cariad Lloyd
So her cousin's swooping in. So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave.
[28:21]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It's an absolute 21st century.
[28:24]
Cariad Lloyd
Something's never changed, right?
[28:25]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, something's ever changed.
[28:26]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay.
[28:27]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Poor Matilda.
[28:27]
Cariad Lloyd
Poor Matilda. So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B. The throne thief. That's his hip hop name. King Stephen. Stephen of Blois. Who is he?
[28:37]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.
[28:40]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Even worse.
[28:41]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, yeah. Depending if we go to 1092 birthday. He is the third son of King Henry I's sister, Adela. So there is Adela. Okay. Their family relationship there. He's a favorite of Henry I. He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there, thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated. And they learn. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip across the Channel.
[29:06]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He's been hanging out with the lads and the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you.
[29:10]
Cariad Lloyd
And he's married to Matilda.
[29:12]
Greg Jenner
Yes, he is heiress to the county of Boulogne, so.
[29:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, my God.
[29:17]
Cariad Lloyd
That's our fifth Matilda. Our final Matilda.
[29:19]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Our fifth and final Matilda.
[29:20]
Cariad Lloyd
Yes. Okay, so the obvious question I have to ask you, carryhead, is how come Stephen of Blois is still alive when the white ship went down? Oh, why wasn't he on that ship?
[29:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Was he on the other ship?
[29:31]
Cariad Lloyd
He was not on the other ship.
[29:33]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Wait, what is he, a butcher from Rouen? He, like, trained really hard and became King Stephen.
[29:38]
Cariad Lloyd
No. Do you remember we said they were having a very sort of boozy party?
[29:41]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, did he pass out and didn't get on the ship?
[29:43]
Cariad Lloyd
He got so drunk.
[29:44]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Drunk. He didn't get on the ship.
[29:46]
Cariad Lloyd
He didn't get on the ship because he had debilitating. Diarrhea.
[29:51]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Debilitating.
[29:52]
Cariad Lloyd
And he had debilitating diarrhea. A brutal hangover. Didn't get on the ship.
[29:57]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He didn't get on the white ship because he had the.
[29:59]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, it's like Final Destination. You know those sort of Final Destination movies. If someone doesn't get on the plane and it crashes and they're like. Yeah. So he was saved. We've had people in the past who, like, shut themselves to death, but he was saved by his diary.
[30:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So all the other male possible heirs were on that ship, apart from Stephen?
[30:14]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[30:15]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Wow.
[30:15]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[30:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
That Is bold, isn't it? You don't want to bring that up at a dinner party, though.
[30:19]
Greg Jenner
Don't you like being like, don't give me too much.
[30:24]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
How comes? Because your brother, all these people. Yeah, I. No, I was. I was there. Why did you get the ship?
[30:29]
Greg Jenner
Well, it was too crowded. It was too busy. I just. I wouldn't have fitted on.
[30:34]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, it was a busy day at the harbor. I couldn't find it. Wow.
[30:40]
Cariad Lloyd
So there we go. So Stephen is the king, Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully, and now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second. That's my throne.
[30:50]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
That's fine. Should have been me. Yeah.
[30:52]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay, so what does she do next?
[30:53]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne? No, she doesn't need any jewels. She's already got her own crown jewels.
[31:03]
Cariad Lloyd
That's right. She's brought her own.
[31:04]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's brought a German hat. Get out my throne, Stephen.
[31:08]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, I think it's time now for the Anarchy, which doesn't mean that you can start throwing chairs around the studio.
[31:13]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So this is when she forms a heavy metal band.
[31:15]
Cariad Lloyd
That's right. That's it. She plays rhythm guitar.
[31:17]
Greg Jenner
Matilda and the Anarchy.
[31:19]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I mean, that's a great name.
[31:20]
Cariad Lloyd
It's a great name for a band, isn't it?
[31:21]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It's really good.
[31:22]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. They do weddings bomb. I mean, it's what you want. We are now into the anarchy, which is not a medieval phrase.
[31:29]
Greg Jenner
Victorians coined it as the anarchy because, you know, it's that idea that society completely fell apart. And there are bits of society that are absolutely wrecked by war during this period, but not all of it.
[31:42]
Cariad Lloyd
So would we call this a civil war?
[31:44]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, I think. 12th century civil war, the lesser known of the Civil War. Perhaps.
[31:52]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
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[33:24]
Greg Jenner
But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focus on taking that first thing. That's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 11:38, 11:39, she's like, Hang on, now I need to focus on taking England.
[33:38]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[33:39]
Greg Jenner
Several of the English barons, including her half brother Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounce their oath to Stephen. Matilda's uncle David, the King of Scotland, also causes problem up in the north. 11:39, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters.
[33:56]
Cariad Lloyd
How do you apply to the Pope? You just fill in a form.
[33:58]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It really sounded like ship night for jobs.
[34:01]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[34:02]
Greg Jenner
Yep. But no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September, 1139. And fortunately, her stepmother Adeliza, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here, I'll support you.
[34:14]
Cariad Lloyd
Arundel's a very lovely town. Very, very nice day out.
[34:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Got a great castle.
[34:17]
Cariad Lloyd
Lovely castle, lovely antique shops, good cafes. So her ex husband had kidnapped the Pope, so it's no surprise that the Pope is Holy Ghost.
[34:26]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I don't know why she's applying to him.
[34:27]
Cariad Lloyd
It's a long shot, right?
[34:28]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[34:29]
Cariad Lloyd
How old is Matilda at this point? Late. 13.
[34:31]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. She's 37.
[34:32]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. She's coming into her own. She knows what she wants.
[34:35]
Greg Jenner
And again, all that experience she had in Germany, she knows she can rule.
[34:39]
Cariad Lloyd
So, Carrie, we've got Matilda who's made military inroads. She's got useful alliances. She's got family Roberts. She's got her stepmom, her uncle. Okay, so the country's divided, civil war. What team would you have chosen? Team Matilda or Team Steven? And before you give me your answer, I'm just going to give you a little bit of an etymological history here. Stephen means crown in ancient Greek, so that's quite a handy name for a king. But Matilda in old German means mighty in battle. So where are you siding? Who would you go for?
[35:09]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Guys, this is a lot of pressure. I'm siding with Matilda because I've only really heard her story. I don't know much about Stephen other than he's a lads lad. It's reminded me of Catherine of Aragon, Henry. The Henry viii, because it's like they. Surely everyone kind of knows Matilda. Right.
[35:23]
Cariad Lloyd
But she hasn't been in England for very long.
[35:24]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She hasn't been in England.
[35:25]
Cariad Lloyd
She left at 8.
[35:26]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. She's been over in Europe, hasn't she?
[35:28]
Cariad Lloyd
And then she came back, but she was.
[35:29]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So the English court probably is going with Stephen more than Matilda. But I'm with Matilda.
[35:34]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay.
[35:34]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm with mighty in battle.
[35:36]
Cariad Lloyd
Mighty in battle.
[35:37]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Although when I think about the ruler with the kings and queens on, I don't really remember Matilda being there repeatedly. So, no, I'm a bit worried that it's not going to work out well for us.
[35:47]
Cariad Lloyd
The horrible history song goes, william, William, Henry, Stephen, Henry, Richard, John. There's no Matilda in there. Okay. Okay, Gabby, talk us through the war, then. This. This brutal anarchy, this civil war. It's easy to think of this as a dynastic war, but a civil war means, you know, the ordinary population are caught up in the violence.
[36:03]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. Because they are vassals of the lords, the barons, who take sides in this and therefore get involved in the battles. And we do have quite a few battles. So once Matilda's got to Arendelle, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the west country because her half brother Robert, Duke of Gloucester's there. So he's got people on side for her. So they decide to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne.
[36:39]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
People just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne.
[36:43]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[36:44]
Cariad Lloyd
There are very few positive barons in history.
[36:46]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. This kind of carries on for about two years. Then February 1141, have a break through Battle of Lincoln, Stephen is captured. So Matilda has Stephen in chains and he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.
[37:01]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Wow.
[37:02]
Cariad Lloyd
And she now is the queen. Yes, yes.
[37:04]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
No, the barons don't back it.
[37:06]
Cariad Lloyd
Right, come on.
[37:07]
Greg Jenner
Nope, nope. Absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins as lady of the English, stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming Queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned. But the Londoners reject her. They will not let her in.
[37:32]
Cariad Lloyd
But Carrie had told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.
[37:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I obviously remembered that completely incorrectly, that when. I'm sure I remember him saying that she was like that Stephen was not as popular. And the people cheered Matilda.
[37:46]
Greg Jenner
Queen Matilda. Stephen's wife is popular.
[37:48]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, maybe I. Matilda, Matilda.
[37:51]
Cariad Lloyd
The other Matildas.
[37:53]
Greg Jenner
That may be where akroids come in.
[37:55]
Cariad Lloyd
It's very easy to mix your Matildas.
[37:57]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Five Matildas to deal with. Yes, there was something. She was very popular and the crowd were like cheering outside Westminster Abbey. So not for Empress Matilda, who. They're like, where have you been, mate? They were cheering for Queen.
[38:09]
Cariad Lloyd
So there's already a Queen Matilda.
[38:11]
Greg Jenner
There is Stephen's wife, Queen Matilda. So for simplicity, I will do Queen Matilda and Empress Matilda.
[38:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. So there you go. I had read. Read about Queen Matilda and I thought it was our Matilda, but she's Empress Matilda. This is where the confusion.
[38:24]
Greg Jenner
But. But there's always a historical but, isn't there? So Queen Matilda's actually been threatening the Londoners anyway. So as much as they like her, she does have her armies going. No, no, Empress, she's not coming in. Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give London the special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in London.
[38:46]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them.
[38:50]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[38:50]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So come on.
[38:51]
Greg Jenner
You know, we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here. It really doesn't.
[38:57]
Cariad Lloyd
Is it because she's showing up wearing her German crown, wearing her German shoes.
[39:00]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Saying, hello, hello, I am Joqueen. And so I don't think you need those privileges anymore and you will need to pay me tax so I can live in Bristol.
[39:09]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, I mean, we'll get to the.
[39:10]
Cariad Lloyd
I think we'll talk about this later. The kind of, the reasons why. But I think it's an. It's a. It must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen, who has won militarily, who has captured the.
[39:19]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, yeah. She should.
[39:21]
Cariad Lloyd
She should by right, sail into Westminster and yeah, the people of London, like, get out. Love you Know, you're not around it and. And. And she just goes home.
[39:28]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
What happens?
[39:29]
Greg Jenner
No, so she flees back to the west country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Steven's still impressed. So we have the siege of Winchester in September 1141, but Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again.
[39:53]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So this Queen Matilda's, like, hot on her heels, isn't she? Like, powerful woman and using her political strength. Oh, dear.
[40:02]
Greg Jenner
And unfortunately, Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half brother, is captured.
[40:08]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, no.
[40:09]
Greg Jenner
So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Tilda, give me back Robert. Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert.
[40:17]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And get out the pub. This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.
[40:21]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[40:22]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Very equally matched, different sides of the square, but basically the same person. She swapped Stephen for Juggie Gloucester.
[40:30]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. And Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne.
[40:35]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, Straight back on that throne with his very powerful and clever and politically astute wife, Matilda.
[40:40]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[40:41]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[40:41]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, it's got to rub in a little bit, hasn't it? It's the same name.
[40:44]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[40:45]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Like, everyone's like, oh, I love that Queen Matilda. And she's like, oh. Oh, you mean that one.
[40:48]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, yeah.
[40:49]
Cariad Lloyd
And then we get an even bigger disaster. Gabby Battle of Oxford.
[40:53]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. So this is 1142. So Empress Matilda is again forced to flee. And this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city. They are are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape. She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate.
[41:17]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, that's Game of Thrones.
[41:19]
Cariad Lloyd
It's sort of. It's kind of camouflage, Right. It's all sneaky, sneaky.
[41:23]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But you can see one of the characters in the white. Yeah. You know, Jon Snow is like, come this way. And she puts her white cloak and.
[41:30]
Cariad Lloyd
Then runs through, presumably, an ermine fur. Presumably. I'm trying to think, what's a white animal that's they would have skinned in anticipation? Like, come here, little weasel.
[41:39]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Thousand white ferrets.
[41:41]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. Well, that was literally a lot of.
[41:42]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Animals skinned for you, Matilda.
[41:44]
Cariad Lloyd
So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides to safety so she's not captured. She is the European hide and Seek champion.
[41:52]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Does she go back to Europe at this point?
[41:54]
Cariad Lloyd
I mean, in the movie, Escaping in the Snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback. Right. But in terms of the history, mystery books.
[42:01]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost. She's lost her.
[42:07]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone.
[42:09]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[42:09]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Moments gone.
[42:10]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. And, I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority. Rarely salt in the wounds.
[42:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Not king once, but king twice.
[42:19]
Cariad Lloyd
King Stephen ii.
[42:20]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, exactly.
[42:21]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. If you remember her older son, Henry.
[42:25]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yep.
[42:25]
Greg Jenner
So he does try and invade in 1147 in the name of his mum. In the name of his mom.
[42:31]
Cariad Lloyd
Oh, that's so adorable.
[42:32]
Greg Jenner
But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge.
[42:36]
Cariad Lloyd
Classic teenager, isn't it?
[42:37]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, you know, absolutely bearing on. He's 14.
[42:42]
Cariad Lloyd
That's so sweet.
[42:43]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
This is actually my. I should be like the king. So reasonable.
[42:48]
Greg Jenner
Yep. And Stephen has to pay for Henry's troops to go away because Henry doesn't have the money to pay them. Oh, he's so charming.
[42:55]
Cariad Lloyd
He's done his best.
[42:56]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Charming slash embarrassing.
[42:58]
Cariad Lloyd
It's really. It's really cringe.
[43:00]
Greg Jenner
And then he comes back two years later, 11:49. And that's a failure as well, because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transfers her claim over to him and he does these little Harrys over the next few years, but it doesn't really get anywhere.
[43:18]
Cariad Lloyd
Okay. So until.
[43:21]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He becomes Henry II at some point. And he's the start of the Plantagenet.
[43:25]
Cariad Lloyd
That's right.
[43:25]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So, yeah. When does he. He get his stuff together?
[43:28]
Cariad Lloyd
Well, it's worth mentioning, we haven't mentioned so far Eustace. Eustace is the. The king's son, Stephen's son, and he. He sort of kills over dead. He'd been the heir apparent.
[43:39]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. You don't get King Eustace bandied around.
[43:42]
Greg Jenner
No. But interestingly, Stephen doesn't seem very sure on naming Eustace as his heir. So he had tried to have him kind of crowned as a co kid king, but the Pope at the time said, no, we're not having two kings in England at the same time. So he can't be co king because.
[43:59]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He tried to deal with the problem that happened to Matilda by being like, I'm just gonna, like, start him as a CEO now we're both the CEOs, and we're both in charge Job share.
[44:10]
Cariad Lloyd
I do Mondays and Wednesdays and Fridays.
[44:11]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
So basically, when I die, you've already got a king that you're used to.
[44:14]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. But Eustace just isn't really put in place.
[44:19]
Cariad Lloyd
He's useless. Useless.
[44:20]
Greg Jenner
The useless, effectively. And hemorrho. Harry has gone off, made a sterling marriage for himself to Eleanor of Aquitaine, so he's now got even more resources. So once Eustace dies and he's got.
[44:32]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
The need for vengeance. Yes, like, he's got the. Like a country was taken from him. He's been waiting in Normandy all this time, training night and day. It Taekwondo.
[44:44]
Cariad Lloyd
It's worth pointing out, though, that Eustace has a brother.
[44:47]
Greg Jenner
Yes.
[44:47]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[44:48]
Cariad Lloyd
There is an heir. Just sitting there going, I can do it. I'm also here, dad.
[44:54]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. Stephen's like, absolutely not. So what's his brother called? William.
[44:58]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Oh, another William.
[44:59]
Cariad Lloyd
Another useless William. Just like, I've done all the exams.
[45:02]
Greg Jenner
Yep. So sad.
[45:04]
Cariad Lloyd
Put me in, dad. I'm ready.
[45:05]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
It's like the Roman in succession.
[45:07]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. Yeah.
[45:08]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Like, we've got Kendall. We don't need you.
[45:09]
Greg Jenner
Yep. So Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester. Agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling on how to rule. Henry is named as heir and William is going to renounce all his claims to the throne and has to pledge.
[45:23]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Allegiance to Henry even though he's the rightful king. That's really weird.
[45:28]
Cariad Lloyd
It's brutal, isn't it? Yeah.
[45:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Wow. It feels like there's a whole vibe of like, everybody was like, yeah, no, not William. Like, obviously not William. Right. No, no, no, it's fine. Like, it's fine. It can be Henry. Never mind this huge war we had with his mum.
[45:42]
Cariad Lloyd
So we've had a sort of anarchic civil war that's lasted, I mean, over a decade. Right.
[45:46]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But this is mad because her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen Basie just want. He just wanted the throne for a bit.
[45:54]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[45:54]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He wasn't bothered about his dynasty. His dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.
[46:00]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[46:00]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But then I'm gonna give it to your son. He just didn't want Matilda to have it.
[46:04]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[46:04]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Right. Is there something to that? Is Carryad right? It just doesn't want a woman on the throne.
[46:10]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what we. What you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England. But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Anjou, they don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence if she becomes queen. Like, what's his role gonna be? Is she gonna, like, rule in her own right? Or is that.
[46:36]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Bypass that. Yeah. But then they install his son, who.
[46:38]
Greg Jenner
Must be of the same lineage, but.
[46:42]
Cariad Lloyd
He'S still a man.
[46:43]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
He's a man.
[46:44]
Greg Jenner
And that's much more acceptable to them.
[46:47]
Cariad Lloyd
So it's quite a sensible compromise to the end of this devastating civil war. It's. Everyone sort of have gone, come on, let's just agree on this. And everyone's gone. All right.
[46:55]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. Because, like, Henry II is. Is royal, his lineage is good, and.
[47:00]
Cariad Lloyd
He has all this land through his wife. So Eleanor of Aquitaine brings all this. So although the opposite applied for Matilda, you know, the idea of the husband being a problem, the queen, the wife is not a problem. Right. Eleanor is great. That's. That's very handy.
[47:13]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She's not going to have any decisions. She's just going to bring the land. Okay. I can see why they're on board.
[47:17]
Cariad Lloyd
So King Stephen died in October 1150. 54. Henry II becomes the king. So Matilda's son on the throne.
[47:23]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[47:24]
Cariad Lloyd
And Matilda gets to be, what, Queen Mum?
[47:26]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. I mean, she is a bit of a.
[47:29]
Cariad Lloyd
She's sort of the Kris Jenner here, is she, kind of a mummy.
[47:32]
Greg Jenner
I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And. Yeah, absolutely. She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time whilst Henry's absent. Now, bearing in mind, obviously, Henry's got England, he's got all these lands that he's got from Ellen, Aquitaine and his various other counties. So Matilda keeps an eye on Normandy again, gets involved with the Archbishops. We had Mum dealing with Archbishop of Canterbury. One, we have Matilda dealing with Thomas Becket and Henry and trying to mediate between them.
[48:05]
Cariad Lloyd
And doesn't go great, that. Let's be honest, one of history's greats. Not. Not out. Not the outcome you're looking for. No.
[48:12]
Greg Jenner
But she tries. She tries to prize. We've got letters from the time that show that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155, and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later, after she's died, but she still brings all her experience to the fore, and you kind of think she must have had a sense of, I never became queen.
[48:36]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[48:36]
Greg Jenner
But.
[48:37]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But I get to rule through Henry, which is a pretty cool, common female role at this royal family.
[48:43]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. She gets to see her son doing the job and doing it. And Henry II is one of the great kings of English medieval history.
[48:50]
Greg Jenner
Right.
[48:50]
Cariad Lloyd
He's controversial, he has a temper, he kills the archbishop in a sacred cathedral, so it's not ideal, but he often goes down as one of the great kings.
[48:59]
Greg Jenner
Yes, definitely.
[49:00]
Cariad Lloyd
And presumably that's partly because of Matilda's influence.
[49:03]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. I mean, I argue he has a great wife and a great mum and they do carry a lot of the work until he pushes them off to one side. And then you can check out the Eleanor Rakuten episode for the rest of that. Yes.
[49:16]
Cariad Lloyd
So Matilda dies in 1167 and she's about 65.
[49:20]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Wow. She does well.
[49:21]
Cariad Lloyd
And she dies in Rouen, in Normandy.
[49:23]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. And she's buried at the Abbey of Bec, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son. And it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really, But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.
[49:41]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. She does end up in power, but not as high as maybe she hoped for.
[49:47]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. And Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey. So she kind of just goes it on.
[49:54]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And Henry II is the first Plantagenet king. Is that right? So she starts a dynasty.
[49:58]
Greg Jenner
She does, yes. Yeah.
[50:00]
Cariad Lloyd
And a really good dynasty in terms of.
[50:03]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, yeah. The Plantagenets, all the way up to Richard iii.
[50:06]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah.
[50:06]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Ye.
[50:06]
Cariad Lloyd
So we kind of discussed it a little bit already, Gabby. The idea that people rejected a woman. London said no. And there was this sort of moment like everyone's like, wow, we prefer a man. There is this sort of accusation that Matilda is haughty, arrogant, sort of steps on people's toes and puts noses out of a joint and maybe isn't. Hasn't got, like, the kind of soft skills.
[50:24]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[50:24]
Cariad Lloyd
Where do you stand on that one?
[50:26]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. So I think there's an element, certainly, of like, 12th century sexism from the writers of the time. They do expect queens to be in power temporarily, but we have Uraka of Leon, Castile. We have Medlicand of Jerusalem. We do have other women who rule in their own right at this time. So it's not uncommon.
[50:44]
Cariad Lloyd
They're always daughters of kings. Is that fair? So it's rare for them to rule, sort of having acquired power themselves. It's often handed down.
[50:51]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. It's usually inherited. But as I mentioned, they are suspicious of the role Geoffrey's going to play with regards to that foreign influence. She does make mistakes. She winds up the Londoners, she does release Stephen. So perhaps not all that political skills there, but given the chance, she could have done a good job. And we see that in Normandy. So.
[51:12]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
But then. Interesting. The release of Stephen.
[51:14]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[51:14]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Is. So she doesn't murder a king and then that allows her son to become the star of a dynasty. So actually, are we looking at her skills in a very, like, masculine.
[51:26]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[51:26]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Powerful, overruling set of skills of like, well, you didn't get to the throne. That means you failed. Whereas actually, does she play a much more manipulative politician's game of I give you the king back so that I can then guarantee this? So she actually does get what she wants, which is the lineage. Right.
[51:42]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. And I think she doesn't conform to the gendered boundaries they expect. I mean, you talk about masculinity there. She expects to be kind of female king. She expects to be assuming all that power and therefore comes in with the expectation. Again, she's already been Holy Roman Empress. She's coming in expecting to rule.
[52:00]
Cariad Lloyd
She's got the crown.
[52:01]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. As opposed to perhaps being that more kind of soft diplomacy with the nobles and getting them on side more delicately. She's a bit more forceful, and I think that's where some of that haughtiness comes from, that she's not like when.
[52:13]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
People say she's a diva, but it's like, well, is she a diva or is she a woman who knows what she would like?
[52:19]
Cariad Lloyd
Yes.
[52:19]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
You know, Celine Dion of the 12th century. And there's nothing wrong with that.
[52:24]
Cariad Lloyd
There we go. Celine Dion of the 12th century. The nuance window. Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Carrier and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned, while Dr. Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Gabby.
[52:51]
Greg Jenner
So I want to talk about medieval queens as co rulers, because I think there's this idea that medieval queen queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious. Maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually, these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as duchess and shares that with Henry. So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis. And it's not just agency, it's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it, but we do see women leading armies in this period as well. So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one man. It's shared with his mum. In the case of Matilda, it's shared with his wife. It can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men, but, you know, with governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think. They're not just there to give birth to children, they do quite well.
[54:38]
Cariad Lloyd
Thank you so much, Gabby. Fascinating characters.
[54:41]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah. Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
[54:43]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. It's been quite a life, Matilda's life.
[54:46]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I got. I can't wait to see the film. I can't wait to see Anne Hathaway in a white coat sneaking out. Cate Blanchett. I feel like Cate Blanchett might be good.
[54:55]
Cariad Lloyd
Who's playing the eight year old? I mean, that's tough, isn't it?
[54:57]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
That's how you got to do a big national casting for that.
[54:59]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, yeah.
[55:00]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Obviously, that's huge. That's huge. But for the later Queen Empress Matilda.
[55:04]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah. So what do you know now? Time now for the sir. What do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Cariad to see how much she's learned. Kariad, you're very good at the quizzes.
[55:18]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I know, but I always get really stressed. I feel like history GCSE all over again.
[55:23]
Cariad Lloyd
If you're in an absolute crisis situation, just say Matilda or Henry and you're probably right.
[55:26]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[55:27]
Cariad Lloyd
Here we go 10 questions. Question 1. Who was Matilda's father? Who betrothed her eight to be married and maybe killed his own brother?
[55:34]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Henry I.
[55:35]
Cariad Lloyd
It was.
[55:36]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah, so I doubted myself there. I was like, Henry, I.
[55:38]
Cariad Lloyd
Question 2. Where did Matilda spend most of her youth and teenage years?
[55:42]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Germany.
[55:42]
Cariad Lloyd
It was Germany. Question 3. What was the White Ship Disaster?
[55:46]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
The White Ship Disaster, Greg, is a real big incident in medieval history. I'm surprised Carrie didn't know about it. This is where they're sailing back from Normandy to England. And Henry I first son was on there. William. And there was another ship that went off, but they all got drunk. They shouldn't have been steering a ship. They shouldn't have been. They shouldn't be doing it. It's like Hollyoaks when the young guys get drunk and get in a car and 300 sailors died. And the only person left was the Butcher of Roanne, who claims, which I'm doubting this story. He's like, oh, everyone had too good a time. They set sail at night.
[56:19]
Cariad Lloyd
You think it's a CIA job. You think. You think it's an assassination. It's a hit.
[56:22]
Greg Jenner
All these.
[56:22]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
The heirs and all the illegitimate sons died, including William's. William, Henry, the first son.
[56:27]
Cariad Lloyd
Very comprehensive answer. Well done. Question four. Why did Matilda not want to marry her second husband, Geoffrey of Anjou?
[56:33]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Because he was a teenager. He was 15. And he was not as high up as her. He was made account of Anjou, but he wasn't as high up.
[56:44]
Cariad Lloyd
Very good. Well done. Question 5. Who sees the throne when Henry I died in instead of Matilda, the rightful queen?
[56:50]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Well, of course, it's King Stephen. King Stephen, yes.
[56:52]
Cariad Lloyd
Because his name means crowns. You know, it's an easy mistake to make. Question 6. Why didn't Stephen drown in the White Ship in 1120?
[56:59]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Because he had diarrhoea of the bottom and it was coming out of him like a river. And so he could not move. And he was not a well man.
[57:10]
Cariad Lloyd
That's right. Yeah, he was. He had regal fecal disaster. Yeah. Question seven. How did Matilda cunningly escape from the castle after losing the Batt Oxford?
[57:21]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She put a white cloak on and padded out into the snow where she could then get away.
[57:27]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, Camouflage.
[57:28]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Back in the 11 in 1142.
[57:30]
Cariad Lloyd
Look at you in your notes.
[57:31]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Yeah.
[57:32]
Cariad Lloyd
Question eight. Who led Stephen's army against Matilda after his capture?
[57:36]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Queen Matilda.
[57:37]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[57:38]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Queen Matilda. The other Matilda, who the Londoners did, like, exactly that.
[57:42]
Cariad Lloyd
Question 9. Why did the people of London turn Empress Matilda away when she tried to be crowned.
[57:47]
Greg Jenner
She.
[57:47]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
She was trying to charge them extra money, she was trying to take away their privileges. And the London's like, we ain't having it, we ain't having it, Empress, we got another Matilda. We don't need you.
[57:57]
Cariad Lloyd
Very good. And this for a perfect 10. What was the sensible compromise that ended the anarchy?
[58:03]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
King Stephen agreed to let Henry, Empress Matilda's son, become King, hence starting the plantagenet dynasty in 1154.
[58:12]
Cariad Lloyd
10 out of 10. Carryad Lloyd. Absolutely incredible. Well done. Brilliant. Well done. Kariad Lloyd.
[58:18]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Thank you very much.
[58:19]
Cariad Lloyd
Of course. Thank you so much, Gabi, for a wonderful history lesson and listener. If you want more medieval queens with Dr. Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine featuring Carrie Add's ostentatious castmate Rachel Parris. For more Caryad, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil wars, which we've now discovered is the Second English Civil War. But that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend, let's call it the Anarchy as a whole. Whole other thing. I'd just like to say huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the fantastic Dr. Gabrielle story. Thank you, Gabby.
[58:53]
Greg Jenner
Thank you, Greg and Carrie. I'd well done for not throwing any chairs around.
[58:57]
Cariad Lloyd
It was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever brilliant Carrie A.D. lloyd. Thank you. Carriage.
[59:04]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Au revoir, monsieur. As they would have said.
[59:07]
Cariad Lloyd
Yeah, I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking sounding. It was much more harsh, normal. The Caesar K's in Norman French.
[59:16]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Anyway, knife is sharp.
[59:18]
Cariad Lloyd
Yes. And to you, lovely listener, Join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine. All mine.
[59:29]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Bye.
[59:35]
Cariad Lloyd
Your Dead to me is at BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
[59:49]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.
[59:51]
Cariad Lloyd
I'm Amanda Iannucci.
[59:52]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And I'm Helen Lewis, a comedy writer.
[59:54]
Cariad Lloyd
And a journalist teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.
[59:59]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Our mission is to decipher political language.
[60:01]
Cariad Lloyd
Stress testing to destruction those used and abused buzzwords and phrases, finding out what they really mean and looking at whether.
[60:08]
Greg Jenner
They'Re meant to deceive us or to.
[60:10]
Cariad Lloyd
Destroy, distract us or to disturb us.
[60:12]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trade.
[60:15]
Cariad Lloyd
But be warned, this series does feature strong political language that some listeners may.
[60:19]
Greg Jenner
Find an inverted pyramid of piffle.
[60:21]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Strong Message here from BBC Radio 4.
[60:24]
Cariad Lloyd
Listen now on BBC Sounds.
[60:30]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
[60:33]
Cariad Lloyd
It's got to be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
[60:36]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Could you be more serious?
[60:37]
Cariad Lloyd
Specific when it's cravenient?
[60:38]
Greg Jenner
Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter available right down the street at AM pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can.
[60:45]
Cariad Lloyd
Grab in just a second at AM pm.
[60:47]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
I'm seeing a pattern here.
[60:48]
Greg Jenner
Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
[60:49]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Crave, which is anything from AM pm.
[60:51]
Greg Jenner
What more could you want?
[60:53]
Cariad Lloyd
Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's Cravinience. AM PM Too much Good stuff.
[61:01]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Mmm.
[61:02]
Greg Jenner
Ooh.
[61:02]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Whatcha eating?
[61:03]
Greg Jenner
The new banana split cookie from AM pm. All freshly baked with real butter with banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.
[61:09]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
That sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?
[61:11]
Greg Jenner
I'm sorry but no. But you can't split the banana split.
[61:15]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
Not even a little.
[61:16]
Greg Jenner
Not even a crumb.
[61:17]
Dr. Gabrielle Storey
What if.
[61:18]
Cariad Lloyd
No, please. Mine when it's too legit to split. That's Cravin. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents with our app AM PM too much good stuff. Plus tax where applicable. Prices and participation may vary in terms of conditions apply.