Empress Matilda (Radio Edit)

Summary

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Episode Overview

You're Dead To Me: "Empress Matilda (Radio Edit)"
Host Greg Jenner, comedian Cariad Lloyd, and historian Dr. Gabrielle Storey tackle the turbulent life of Empress Matilda, exploring her royal upbringing, her key role in the period known as "the Anarchy," and her enduring legacy as the would-be first reigning queen of England. The conversation blends reliable scholarship and sharp wit, presenting a vivid history lesson full of remarkable characters, political maneuverings, and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Matilda’s Royal Origins & Childhood (04:17)

• Birth & Family Background
  • Matilda born February 1102 to Henry I (son of William the Conqueror) and Matilda of Scotland, herself descended from Alfred the Great.
  • Raised partly at court, partly in nunneries—her mother instilled both piety and a taste for power.
• Early Travels & Betrothal (05:35)
  • At eight, Matilda was sent to Germany to marry Henry V, King of the Romans (Holy Roman Emperor), in a political alliance.
  • “Officially engaged at the age of eight. I will say that they're fine, then.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [06:13]

2. Empress of the Holy Roman Empire (07:29)

• Marriage & Coronation
  • Married Henry V just before her 12th birthday in 1114; crowned Empress at 15.
  • “She gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [07:29]
• Widowhood & Return to England
  • Henry V dies in 1125; Matilda (age 23) returns to England with imperial regalia.
  • Her return coincides with a dynastic crisis: her brother and royal heir, William, dies in the White Ship disaster (09:44).

3. Struggle for the English Throne (10:42)

• Heir to the Throne… a Woman!?
  • With the death of her brother, Matilda is named her father's successor; English nobles swear repeated oaths to her.
  • Henry I remarries her off to Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou (age 15 – she's 11 years senior), further irritating English barons.
  • “Getting into another problematic marriage klaxon there.” – Greg Jenner [11:37]

4. The Anarchy: Civil War & Power Play (13:34)

• Usurpation by Stephen of Blois
  • Upon Henry I’s death, cousin Stephen hastily claims the throne.
  • "So Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, or Steve. Steve. Shall we call him Steve for a bit?" – Dr. Gabby Storey [13:34]
• Civil War Erupts
  • Matilda mounts an armed campaign—supported by key allies like her half-brother Robert of Gloucester and uncle David, King of Scotland (16:09).
  • Neither side decisively wins; barons switch loyalties based on land, not principle.

5. Dramatic Near-Miss: Almost Queen (17:23–21:17)

• Capture and Reversal
  • Stephen is captured at the Battle of Lincoln (1141); Matilda seems poised to rule.
  • She mints coins and arranges a coronation, but Londoners refuse her entry (18:16).
  • “She won’t give London the special privileges that they've always held...They're just like, you're not coming in, love.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [18:42]
• Setback and Exchange
  • Siege of Winchester: Matilda’s forces besieged; her half-brother captured, Stephen exchanged for him, and Matilda forced into retreat (19:41).
  • Battle of Oxford: Matilda makes a dramatic escape disguised in white through snowy night (20:28).
    • “She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [20:53]

6. The Endgame & Matilda’s Legacy (21:48–24:38)

• Son’s Failed Invasions and Ultimate Triumph

  • Matilda’s son, Henry (later Henry II), tries and fails to win the throne by force.
  • Eventually, Treaty of Winchester (1153) names Henry as Stephen's heir; Stephen dies in 1154.
    • “Her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen basically just wanted the throne for a bit...Then I'm gonna give it to your son.” – Cariad Lloyd [22:25]

• Matilda’s Later Years

  • Matilda advises her son from Normandy; respected as a political operator (23:35).
  • Dies in 1167 at Rouen, Normandy, age about 65; remembered as mother of the Plantagenet dynasty.
  • “She does end up in power. But not at all as high as maybe she would hoped for.” – Cariad Lloyd [24:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Medieval Childhood Marriages:
  • “Now look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program, but that is low. Medievals. What is wrong with you?” – Cariad Lloyd [06:06]
• On the White Ship Disaster:
  • “Fitzstephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry’s ship. So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks... all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Rouen.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [10:24]
  • “We only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me.” – Cariad Lloyd [10:24]
• On Londoners Rejecting Matilda:
  • “Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them.” – Cariad Lloyd [18:52]
• On Male Preference in Succession:
  • “He just didn’t want Matilda to have it.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [22:43]
• On Matilda as Powerbroker:
  • “She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time... very politically astute. She does get involved. She’s very well respected.” – Dr. Gabby Storey [23:38]

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Important Timestamps

• 04:17 – Matilda’s birth, family context, and royal upbringing
• 05:35 – Betrothal to Henry V; sent to Germany at age eight
• 07:29 – Crowning as Queen of the Romans, marriage at 12, later Empress
• 09:44 – The White Ship disaster eliminates male heir, setting up Matilda’s claim
• 10:42 – Problems as female heir; new marriage to Geoffrey of Anjou
• 13:34 – Stephen’s usurpation; Matilda is beaten to the throne
• 16:08 – Outbreak of civil war (“the Anarchy”)
• 17:23 – Empress Matilda captures Stephen; sets out to be crowned, foiled by Londoners
• 19:41 – Siege of Winchester; exchange of prisoners between Matilda and Queen Matilda (Stephen’s wife)
• 20:28 – Escape from Oxford, end of Matilda’s active campaign
• 22:25 – Treaty of Winchester and Stephen’s death; Plantagenet dynasty begins with Matilda’s son
• 23:35 – Matilda’s role as political advisor to Henry II, her influence in Normandy
• 25:24–27:11 – Nuance Window: Dr. Gabby on medieval queenship and women as political partners and rulers

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Nuance Window: Medieval Queens as Co-Rulers (25:24–27:11)

Dr. Gabby Storey closes with a reflection on how medieval queens, including Matilda, exercised significant power—not just through motherhood or soft influence, but as direct co-rulers and political players. She highlights that the tendency to see medieval queens only as background figures supporting a king is misplaced: "These are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king... We need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power." [25:24]

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Tone and Style

The episode is a lively, accessible blend of comedy and detailed history. Greg Jenner’s genial, curious hosting matches Cariad Lloyd’s irreverent, relatable questions, while Dr. Gabby Storey brings scholarly insight delivered in a clear, friendly way. Much of the humor comes from wry takes on medieval norms, running gags about problematic royal marriages, and playful anachronisms.

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Takeaways

• Empress Matilda’s life reveals the challenges faced by medieval women—especially those who dared to claim authority.
• Despite repeatedly being denied her crown, she ultimately founded England’s greatest royal dynasty through her son, Henry II.
• Medieval queens exercised far more real power and agency than is often assumed—on the battlefield, in diplomacy, and at court.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the anarchy. And joining our royal court are two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian of monarchy and sexuality specializing in medieval history. She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Le Mans. And you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine. It's Dr. Gabrielle Storey. Welcome back, Gabi.

[A]

Great. Thanks for having me back.

[B]

And in Comedy Corner, she's a multi talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book, Where Does She Go? Is a lovely analysis of grief for kids. Plus she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in the hilarious ostentatious improv show. She's a busy woman and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of youf Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts movement. It's the wonderful Carrie A.D. loyd. Welcome back, Cariad.

[C]

Ahoy there, Sira. As they said in medieval times, yes, good morrow upon thee. Yes. Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That was your classic English greeting.

[A]

Well, we do need it in Anglo French for this episode.

[B]

Bonjour. Now, carry out. Together, we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome, a sort of empress. We've done plenty of sort of Regency in Victoriana. We've not done medieval together.

[C]

We have not gone back to medieval times.

[B]

And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think.

[C]

I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Ackroyd's London, and I only remember two things from Peter Ackroyd's London, and I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her. And that the area of St. Giles was a slum. I'm so sorry, Peter. It's a very large tome.

[B]

It's a very big book. Very heavy.

[C]

I should remember.

[B]

More popular Queen. Interesting. We will address that later, I think, because that is not what I would.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

Well, take it up with Peter Aykroyd, not me.

[B]

So what do you know? Great. That brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the Sowadian. Though this is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roald Dahl story. More so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega, massive medieval novel, the Pillars of the earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played age of Empires 2 expansion pack. Ooh. In which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full blown civil war? Let's find out. Right. Dr. Gabby, when was Matilda born? You know, where are we in history? And are we talking royal baby?

[A]

Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions. Yeah. But Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror, also known by another name that's not Radio 4 friendly, so we'll keep it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland. And Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great, so this gives some legitimacy.

[C]

She's like. She's Royalty.

[A]

We don't know loads, unfortunately, about her upbringing. So royal girls are often raised in nunneries, and sometimes they're at court with their mothers. If they're at court with their mothers and they're traveling round, you know, we know that she goes to Exeter. She's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury. So she does move round of the court quite a bit. Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious, so she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power, so we can see her with a good amount of political authority again, something Julie and Matilda's.

[B]

Gonna pick up on and we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter, and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter. But she went considerably further at a young age. Do you want to guess where, Kari?

[C]

France.

[B]

Further than France.

[C]

Oh, Germany.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

All the way to Germany.

[B]

All the way to Germany.

[C]

So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French was full.

[B]

Well, it wasn't a school exchange program, Carrie.

[C]

Oh. It was to meet a man to marry.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It was marriage exchange.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what, Greg? They look down on that in schools these days.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Often on this show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage. Klaxon how old are we talking here, Gabby?

[C]

Oh, yeah, how old?

[A]

Eight. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program, but that is low. Medievals. What is wrong with you?

[A]

Officially engaged at the age of eight. I will say that they're fine, then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realize that that's quite young to be.

[C]

But they would, like, say, like, this is gonna happen. We're just scared. Making sure everyone we've signed the contracts.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You can see what you're buying. But they're not going to actually get married for a while.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.

[B]

Yeah. But she does go out there at 8, right?

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

To Germany. So her father is arranged. Her father is Henry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's betrothed. To who?

[A]

Henry. Oh, another one.

[C]

Can't call him Heinrich or something. He's also Henry V. Henrik.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or Heinrich V. Yep.

[B]

And he is what?

[A]

And he is King of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also you go by the title of King of the Romans, so it can be King of Germany. King of the Romans. Because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor. As well, which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on 25th July, 11:10. So they give her a party. Yeah, so she's. Yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight year old.

[C]

Well, it is. It's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants a Colin the Caterpillar cake. Other cakes are available, but it's still not ideal if she's going to have to marry das Henry Fumpf.

[A]

Yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.

[B]

12? They can't even wait till she's 12.

[A]

So the problematic marriage Claxton continues.

[C]

Yeah, well, if you engage at 8, it's a long time before that klaxon is going to stop ringing.

[B]

Yeah, I need new batteries for the klaxon.

[C]

Yeah, you're going to.

[A]

Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress imperatrix Romanorum in 1117. So they're crowned, not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Brega. And therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on for Lynn's like, well, no, I'm empressed out. That's going to be my title. That's what I'm going to use.

[C]

But she's like 12 at this point, like 14 or something.

[B]

She's probably like 15, I think, at this point. She's suddenly demoted in 1125. Oh, what.

[C]

What happened to her?

[B]

You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the Empress. And then suddenly.

[A]

Nope, Because Henry V dies. Heinrich passes away.

[C]

Henry V is dead. He goes kaput. Henrik fief. Oh, no. So he just dies, but she's left.

[A]

Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children. But she decides to go back to England in 1126 and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns.

[B]

There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry.

[C]

King Henry ii, he's lost his heir.

[B]

I mean, it's a huge dynastic catastrophe.

[A]

So November 1120, the English Royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at This point. So got control over both of those areas. Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the White ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen, and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place.

[B]

Oh, so it's a nepo hire.

[A]

Yes. Now, as is typical, dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship. And Fitzstephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. Yes. The rock rips the hole, ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Rouen.

[C]

So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me. They were also drunk. So you didn't drink? No, no, no, no, no, no, I did not. I was not the one who bought the booth.

[B]

So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy because suddenly, here's an heir. Yeah, but a woman. So. Yeah.

[C]

How do they feel about that?

[A]

You know, not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point. But they've not had it in England before. Certainly not in the kingdom of England. Henry decides to get marri. He does make plans. So he does ask the bishops and magnate of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies.

[B]

Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he?

[C]

Of course. Well, she's only young, right?

[B]

She's 24.

[C]

24, but 4 and 20, as Jane Ralston would say, she's almost a spinster, but not quite.

[B]

So he marries her off again.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Again, inappropriate aged husband.

[C]

Oh, what is he, like, 80 or something?

[B]

Other way around.

[C]

Oh, no, he's like, seven.

[B]

He's a teenager. So she's the cougar this time. She's. How old's the new hubby?

[A]

So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda.

[B]

And the age gap there is, what, 11 years.

[A]

So, you know, getting into another problematic marriage faction there.

[B]

She's not impressed, right?

[A]

No, she's not.

[C]

Because, again, Jeffrey not of Monmouth. That's the end of Geoffrey.

[B]

I know, guys, that's a good medieval name.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

This is Geoffrey Plantagenet.

[C]

Right, Plantagenet. I know them.

[A]

So he is Count of Anjou. So Anjou, a central county in France at this point, but, yeah, Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor, so she's got a teenager and account. It's quite a big step down.

[C]

A bit embarrassing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And does he just come over to England and just is living with her?

[A]

No, she goes over to Anjou.

[C]

She has to go to Anjou.

[B]

I see.

[C]

So she has to go and live there.

[B]

Poor Matilda so far has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter. Her own teenage husband. And she has a baby. And that's healthy. Second, childbirth is very dangerous.

[A]

Yes, she does think she's going to die. She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and, you know, sorts out a will effectively because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But son number one is another Henry.

[C]

Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it. I'll be the second.

[A]

Yep. Son number two, the problematic one is Geoffrey, and they go on to have a third son, William as well. So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys. But yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic.

[B]

Okay, so dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad passes away. In 1135, the king of England is dead. And all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock.

[C]

And you know how reliable bishops are in history if they agree something. Those bishops never let you down.

[B]

So the next ruler of England carry out is.

[C]

Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do they want it to go to her son? They're trying to do it that way.

[B]

I mean, that would. That would make more sense.

[C]

But no, they just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it?

[B]

Do you want to talk us through?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. So Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, or Steve. Steve. Shall we call him Steve for a.

[C]

I've heard of Steven.

[A]

Steven Le Blois. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 20, 23 weeks.

[C]

So liter.

[B]

That is a quick party arrangement.

[C]

It's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin a similar age. And your families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in GCSEs. Matilda, Stephen's going to Oxford. Like, Stephen's actually become King of England.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it does help. Talking of meddling bishops, Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is big But Matilda, when we talk about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.

[B]

So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave.

[C]

It's an absolute 21st century.

[B]

Something's never changed, right?

[C]

Oh, something's ever changed. Poor Matilda.

[B]

Poor Matilda. So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B. The throne thief. That's his hip hop name. King Stephen. Stephen of Blois. Who is he?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.

[C]

Even worse.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Depending. If we go to 1092 birthday, he is the third son of King Henry I's sister, Adela. So there is Adela, the family relationship there, he's a favorite of Henry I. He grows up in the English court because his mum sends him there, thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated. And they learn. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip across the Channel.

[C]

He's been hanging out with the lads in the men's club.

[B]

Yeah, I get you. I get you. And he's married to Matilda. Yes, he is.

[A]

Heiress to the county of Boulogne.

[B]

So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully, and now she looks across the Channel and goes, hang on a second. That's my throne.

[C]

That's fine. Should have been me. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so what does she do next?

[C]

She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne. No, now my throne, Stephen.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's time now for the anarchy. So would we call this a civil war?

[A]

Yeah, I think 12th century civil war. The lesser known of the Civil war, perhaps. But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focus on taking that first, think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 11:38, 11:39, she's like, Hang on, now I need to focus on taking England.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Several of the English barons, including her half brother Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounced their oath to Stephen. Matilda's uncle David, the King of Scotland, also causes problem up in the north. 11:39, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters.

[B]

How do you apply to the Pope? You just fill in a form.

[C]

It really sounded like she applied for a job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep. But no luck there. But she decides to sail for England. Anyway, in September 1139, unfortunately, her stepmother Adeliza, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here, I'll support you.

[B]

Arundel's a very lovely town, very nice day out.

[C]

Got a great castle, Lovely castle.

[B]

Lovely antique shops, good cafes, lovely castle. So, Gabby, talk us through the war, then this. This brutal anarchy, this civil war.

[A]

So once Matilda's got to Arendelle, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the west country, because her half brother Robert, Duke of Gloucester's there, so he's got people on side for her. So they decide to start battling this civil war. Actually, doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the front.

[C]

People just with land, and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne.

[B]

Yeah, There are very few positive barons in history.

[A]

Yeah. This kind of carries on for about two years. Then, February 1141, have a breakthrough Battle of Lincoln. Stephen is captured. So Matilda has Stephen in chains and he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And she now is the queen. Yes, yes.

[C]

No, the barons don't back it.

[B]

Right, come on.

[A]

No, no, absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins as lady of the English, stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming queen, and she proceeds to London to be crowned. But the Londoners reject her. They will not let her in.

[B]

But Carryad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.

[C]

I obviously remembered that. That completely incorrectly, that when. I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a like, that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered.

[A]

Matilda, Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife is popular.

[B]

Oh, maybe I. Matilda, Matilda, the other Matilda.

[A]

So that may be where Aykroyd's coming from.

[B]

It's very easy to mix in Matilda's Empress.

[A]

Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give London the special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in, love.

[C]

Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here.

[B]

It must have been a humiliating moment. Right. The rightful queen who has Won militarily. Who has captured the.

[C]

Yeah, she should, by right.

[B]

She should, by right, sail into Westminster and, yeah, the people are London. Like, get out, love. You know, you're not around here. And she just goes home.

[C]

What happens?

[A]

No, so she flees back to the west country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still imprisoned. So we have the siege of Winchester in September 1141. But Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again.

[C]

So this Queen Matilda's, like, hot on her heels, isn't she? Like, powerful woman and. And using her political strength.

[A]

And unfortunately, Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half brother, is captured.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda. Give me back Robert. Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert.

[C]

And get out the pub. This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Very equally matched. Different sides of the square, but basically the same person. She's got Stephen for Jacob Gloucester. Yeah. Oh, my.

[A]

And Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne.

[C]

Yeah, Straight back on that throne.

[B]

And then we get an even bigger disaster. Gabby. Battle of Oxford.

[A]

Yep. So this is 1142. So Empress Matilda is again forced to flee, and this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city, they are sieged for three months, and eventually she is forced to escape. Escape? She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate.

[C]

That's Game Of Thrones.

[B]

It's sort of. It's kind of camouflage, Right. It's all sneaky, sneaky. So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides to safety so she's not captured.

[C]

Does she go back to Europe at this point?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, in the movie Escaping in the Snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But in terms of the history books.

[A]

Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost. She's lost her.

[C]

Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone. Yeah, moment's gone.

[A]

Yeah. And, I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely sought in the wounds.

[C]

Not king once, but king twice.

[B]

King Stephen ii.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, yeah. If you remember her older son, Henry, Yep. So he does try and invade in 1147.

[B]

In the name of his mum.

[A]

In the name of his mum.

[B]

Oh, that's so adorable. But.

[A]

But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge.

[B]

Classic teenager, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah. You know, and then he comes back two years later, 11:49. And that's a failure as well, because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transfers her claim over to him, and he does these little Harrys over the next few years, but it doesn't really get anywhere.

[B]

Okay. So he's.

[A]

Until.

[C]

He becomes Henry II at some point. And he. He's the start of the Plantagenet.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

So, yeah. When does he.

[A]

So Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester, agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Henry is named as heir.

[C]

This is mad, because her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen Basie just want. He just wanted the throne for a bit. He wasn't bothered about his dynasty. Yeah, his dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But then I'm gonna give it to your son.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He just didn't want Matilda to have it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Right. Is there something to. That Is carrying. Right. It just doesn't want a woman on the throne.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what we. What you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England. But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Anjou. They don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence if she becomes queen. Like, what's his role gonna be? Is she gonna, like, rule in her.

[C]

Own right, or is she gonna bypass that? But then they install his son, who.

[A]

Must be of the same lineage, but.

[B]

He'S still a man.

[A]

He's a man, and that's much more acceptable to them.

[B]

King Stephen died in October 1154. Henry II becomes the king. So Matilda's son on the throne. And Matilda gets to be what, Queen Mum?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, she is a bit of a.

[B]

Is she sort of the Kris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mum and jam?

[A]

She's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And. Yeah, absolutely. She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy Pretty much full time. We've got letters from the time that show that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155, and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later, after she's died, but she still brings all her experience to the fore.

[B]

So Matilda dies in 1167, age about 65. She does well and she dies in Rouen, in Normandy.

[A]

Yep. And she's very. At the Abbey of Beck, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son. And it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. Yeah. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.

[C]

Yeah, she does end up in power.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But not at all as high as maybe she would hoped for.

[A]

Yeah. And Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well. Her husband Geoffrey. So she kind of just go, go down.

[C]

And Henry II is the first Plantagenet king.

[B]

Is that right?

[C]

So she starts a dynasty.

[A]

She does, yeah.

[B]

And a really good dynasty in terms of.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenets.

[B]

All the way up to Richard iii. Yeah. The nuance. Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Carrier and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henry's that we've mentioned, while Dr. Gaby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Gabby.

[A]

So I want to talk about medieval queens as co rulers, because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious. Maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually, these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as duchess and shares that with Henry. So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis. And it's not. Not just agency, it's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it, but we do see women leading armies in this period as well. So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one man. It's shared with his mum. In the case of Matilda, it's shared with his wife. It can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men, but, you know, with. With governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think. They're not just there to give birth to children, they do quite well.

[B]

Thank you so much, Gaby. Fascinating.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

[B]

Listener. If you want more medieval queens with Dr. Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine featuring Carryad's ostentatious castmate Rachel Parris. For more Carriad. Obviously, we've got lots of of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War. But that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend, let's call it the Anarchy is a whole other thing. I'd just like to say huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the fantastic Dr. Gabrielle story. Thank you, Gabby.

[A]

Thank you, Greg and Carrie. I'd well done for not throwing any chairs around.

[B]

Placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever brilliant Carrie Carriad. Lloyd. Thank you, Cariad.

[C]

Au revoir, monsieur. As they would have said.

[B]

I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking sounding. It was much more harsh. Norman. Yes, you do the Caesar K's in Norman French. Anyway. Yes. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine, all mine. Bye. Your Dead to me is at BBC Studios. Audio production for BBC Radio 4.

[C]

Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

[B]

I'm Amanda Yannucci. And I'm Helen Lewis, a comedy writer and a journalist. Teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

[C]

Our mission is to decipher political language.

[B]

Stress testing to destruction those used and abused buzzwords and phrases, finding out what they really mean and looking at whether they're meant to deceive us or to distract us or to disturb us.

[C]

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[B]

But be warned, this series does feature strong political language that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle.

[C]

Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

[B]

Listen now on BBC Sounds.

[A]

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