Frederick Douglass (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Frederick Douglass"
You're Dead to Me
BBC Radio 4
Release Date: September 27, 2024

You're Dead to Me, hosted by Greg Jenner, masterfully blends comedy with historical discourse. In the September 27, 2024 episode titled "Frederick Douglass (Radio Edit)," Jenner delves into the life of one of America's paramount abolitionists, Frederick Douglass, alongside his guests Professor Emily Bernard and comedian Toussaint Douglas. This summary captures the episode's key discussions, insights, and conclusions.

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Introduction to Frederick Douglass

The episode kicks off with Greg Jenner introducing Frederick Douglass as a visionary abolitionist, orator, and writer who escaped the shackles of slavery to become a pivotal figure in 19th-century America.

Notable Quote:

“Black Friday is coming...well, there's something for them this year too.”
— Greg Jenner [00:06]

Note: This is part of an advertisement and is omitted from the main content summary.

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Early Life and Enslavement

Professor Emily Bernard provides an in-depth look at Douglass's tumultuous beginnings. Born Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey in Talbot County, Maryland, in February 1818, Douglass was separated from his mother at an early age and endured the harsh realities of plantation life.

Key Points:

• Birth and Family: Douglass's mother, Harriet, was enslaved, and his father was likely his first enslaver, Aaron Anthony Frederick.
• Early Trauma: At age six, Douglass witnessed his Aunt Hester being brutally whipped, an event that crystallized his understanding of slaveholder cruelty.
• Education: Sent to Baltimore as a playmate for Sophia Auld's child, Douglass learned to read under her initial kindness before her husband's intervention enforced the notion that educating slaves was dangerous.

Notable Quote:

“He chooses his Birthday on February 14th, Valentine's Day, in tribute to his mother who called him her little valentine.”
— Prof. Emily Bernard [05:15]

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Escape from Slavery

Douglass's determination to attain freedom led him to escape to the North in 1838, a journey fraught with peril but ultimately successful with the assistance of Anna Murray, a free Black woman who aided his escape.

Key Points:

• Initial Attempts: Douglass's first escape attempt failed, but with Anna Murray's help, he successfully fled Maryland disguised as a sailor.
• Name Change: Upon settling in New Bedford, Massachusetts, in 1841, Douglass adopted his renowned name, inspired by Walter Scott's character, James Douglas.
• Life in the North: Settling in Massachusetts provided Douglass with relative safety and the opportunity to hone his oratory and writing skills.

Notable Quote:

“I can't not eat it...I'd be illiterate. So I'm blown away by just how kind of impressive at that stage the young Frederick Douglass is.”
— Helena Bonham Carter [07:54]

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Abolitionist Career and Oratory

Douglass's eloquence and passion transformed him into a leading abolitionist voice. His ability to intertwine humor with serious critique made his speeches both impactful and engaging.

Key Points:

• Publishing Autobiographies: Douglass authored three autobiographies, each highlighting different facets of his life and evolving as a leader.
• The North Star: In 1851, Douglass founded his own newspaper, initially named The North Star before being renamed Frederick Douglass Paper.
• Famous Speech: In 1852, Douglass delivered "What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?"—a scathing critique of American hypocrisy regarding liberty and slavery.

Notable Quote:

“Your celebration is a sham. Your boasted liberty an unholy license... there is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour.”
— Frederick Douglass (Quoted in the podcast) [17:20]

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International Influence and Recognition

Douglass's influence extended beyond America as he toured the UK and Ireland, garnering international support for the abolitionist movement.

Key Points:

• European Tours: Between 1845 and 1847, Douglass traveled across Ireland, Scotland, and England, where he impressed audiences with his personal testimony and moral criticisms of slavery.
• Freedom Purchased: In 1847, the Richardson sisters, Quakers from Newcastle, legally purchased Douglass's freedom, allowing him to tour without the threat of recapture.
• Photographic Legacy: Douglass became the most photographed American of the 19th century, using photography to present a dignified and accurate image of Black individuals, countering prevalent racist depictions.

Notable Quote:

“I need to just make it clear to everyone, this is my paper, all right?”
— Helena Bonham Carter (Humorous commentary on Douglass's founding of his newspaper) [16:50]

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Collaboration with Abraham Lincoln

Douglass played a crucial role during the American Civil War, forging a significant relationship with President Abraham Lincoln that influenced the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation.

Key Points:

• Recruitment Efforts: Douglass actively recruited Black soldiers for the Union Army, advocating for equal pay and better treatment.
• Meeting Lincoln: Douglass's impassioned pleas to Lincoln in Washington, D.C., were instrumental in the President's decision to issue the Emancipation Proclamation in January 1863.
• Legacy of Friendship: Despite occasional disagreements, Douglass and Lincoln shared mutual respect, evidenced by Lincoln's wife sending Douglass his favorite walking stick after the President's assassination.

Notable Quote:

“This guy is a rock star, right? This guy is coming from America. He's got the chat. He's a celebrity.”
— Helena Bonham Carter [13:12]

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Later Years and Continued Advocacy

Even after the Civil War, Douglass remained a steadfast advocate for civil rights, women's suffrage, and social justice until his death in 1895.

Key Points:

• Quaker Support: His relationships with Quaker sisters Anna and Ellen Richardson were pivotal in securing his freedom and supporting his endeavors.
• Personal Tragedies: Anna Douglas, his first wife, died in 1882, after which Douglass remarried Helen Pitts, a white suffrage campaigner, sparking both support and backlash.
• Diplomatic Role: In 1889, Douglass was appointed Minister and Consul to the Republic of Haiti, navigating racial prejudices even abroad.
• Final Autobiography: In 1881, Douglass published his third autobiography, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass, showcasing his intellectual evolution.

Notable Quote:

“This has been an argument made by the scholar Granville Ganter is Frederick Douglass was funny, right? ... he's using humor right in his lectures.”
— Greg Jenner [14:19]

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The Nuance Window: Professor Bernard's Insight

In the concluding segment, Professor Emily Bernard delivers a two-minute reflection, emphasizing Douglass's literary mastery and his unwavering commitment to liberation.

Key Points:

• Literary Artistry: Douglass is portrayed not just as an orator but as a prolific writer whose works were instrumental in fighting for emancipation.
• Philosophical Depth: His writings bridged personal narrative with broader political theory, critiquing the hypocrisies of American society.
• Enduring Legacy: Douglass's ability to articulate the interior lives of enslaved individuals through metaphor and narrative remains a cornerstone of his enduring impact.

Notable Quote:

“Douglass was fearless and incisive in his critiques of Christianity... his narratives are not just evidence of humanity but a nuanced portrait of the enslaved person's interior life.”
— Professor Emily Bernard [26:26]

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Conclusion and Sign-Off

The episode wraps up with humorous exchanges among the hosts, celebrating Douglass's multifaceted legacy and his enduring relevance in both historical and contemporary contexts.

Notable Quote:

“I'm off to go and shave my beard into a glorious goatee. Bye.”
— Helena Bonham Carter as Toussaint Douglas [28:50]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of You're Dead to Me successfully intertwines humor with rigorous historical analysis, presenting Frederick Douglass not only as a formidable abolitionist but also as a culturally significant figure whose strategies in oratory and publication continue to resonate. Professor Emily Bernard's scholarly insights, complemented by Toussaint Douglas's comedic flair, render Douglass's story both informative and engaging for listeners.

Transcript

[Helena Bonham Carter]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Emily Bernard]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Helena Bonham Carter]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Toussaint Douglas]

BBC Sounds music radio Podcasts. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are journeying back to 19th century America to learn all about a man who escaped enslavement to become a visionary abolitionist, orator and writer, Frederick Douglass. And to help me do that, I am joined by two very special guests in History Corner. She's a cultural historian and literary scholar at the University of Vermont where she is the Julian Lindsay Green and Gold professor of English and an Andrew Carnegie Fellow. You may have read her wonderful book, Black Is the Stories From My Grandmother's Time, My Mother's Time and Mine. And you'll certainly remember her from our episode on the Harlem Renaissance, one of my faves, it's Professor Emily Bernard. Welcome back, Emily.

[Emily Bernard]

Hello.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And in Comedy Corner, he's an award winning rising star of standup and comedy writing. You may have seen him on BBC3's Stand Up For Live Comedy or on loads of Dave TV shows like Outsiders, Hypothetical Question Team or Late Night Mash. It's Toussaint Douglas. Welcome, Toussaint.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Hi thanks so much for having me.

[Toussaint Douglas]

First time on the show. Where do you stand on history? Are you a fan?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I'm actually a massive history fan, yeah. It was probably my favorite subject in school. I actually studied at uni, politics and American history. So I don't know if I'm setting myself up for failure here in terms of how much I remember. I need to really caveat that I don't remember a lot, but my favorite teacher at school said, if you don't learn from the past, how can we build for the future? And I thought that was an absolute line.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Love it. All right. And you are a Douglas yourself. In fact, Douglas with a double S at the end.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Indeed, yes.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Are you familiar with Frederick Douglass?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I mean, hey, maybe we're related. Who knows, you know what I mean? He's in my top three Douglases that I'd like to be related to. It's him, Kirk Douglas, who doesn't like Spartacus and then Michael Douglas. There's not that many Douglas's, to be fair, but it's those three.

[Toussaint Douglas]

So what do you know? Right? We start, as ever, with a sub. What do you know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. In the uk, I suspect Douglas is perhaps less well known and that's maybe due to the surprising lack of pop culture projects. We don't have a movie about him or a biopic or a big drama series, which is surprising because he is a huge giant of the 19th century. So what do we need to know about him? Let's find out, shall we? So we start, as ever, with childhood and Emily. Really our story starts as a horror movie because Frederick Douglass is born enslaved. So where is he born and when? And what is his origin story?

[Emily Bernard]

He was born in Talbot County, Maryland. His birth details are unclear, but a ledger kept by his first enslaver listed him as being born in Febby 1818. Douglass mother Harriet was enslaved, so Douglass was born enslaved too. Actually, Douglass wasn't his name yet. He was Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey. Bailey being Harriet's maiden name. His biological father was possibly his first slave master, Aaron Anthony Frederick was a fourth of six children. Sadly, Frederick was separated from his mother as an infant and lived with his siblings and maternal grandmother, Betty Bailey. He was only with her for a short amount of time before being sent to the Y House plantation. We also know from his autobiography, his mother died when he was seven.

[Toussaint Douglas]

There is something quite interesting because later in life he didn't know when his birthday was. Frederick Douglass chose his Birthday. He knew he was born in February. Can you guess which day of February he decided would be his birthday?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

He seems like, you know, maybe he was a bit of a romantic guy. Greg maybe was picking the most famous day In February, perhaps the 14th of February, you know, Valentine's Day. That could be it. I don't know.

[Toussaint Douglas]

You're absolutely spot on.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

No, are you kidding me?

[Toussaint Douglas]

That's exactly what he does.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Unbelievable. I must be related to Frederick Douglass. There's an affinity there. It's just, you know, I could feel.

[Toussaint Douglas]

It, feeling the connection. Yeah. It's a rather beautiful story. His mother Harriet had apparently called him her little valentine. So he did it in tribute to her. And we have three autobiographies written by him. Emily. So we know a lot about Frederick Douglass from his own perspective. What else do we know about his youth from his books?

[Emily Bernard]

In an early traumatic experience which forever haunted him, he witnessed his Aunt Hester being whipped by his first slave master for visiting a lover. This was when he first realized how cruel slave owners could be. In 1826, aged only six, Frederick was sent to Baltimore to serve as an enslaved playmate for Sophia and Huald's toddler. This became a formative time because Sophia Auld taught Frederick to read.

[Toussaint Douglas]

It's a really weird story that he's enslaved and yet he's been sort of sent off to go and entertain a child. He is a child, he's six. But Sophia teaches him to read. And Emily. Sophia is a complicated character in the way that Douglas remembers her later on because there is a sort of maternal warmth early on. And then it changes.

[Emily Bernard]

Sophia Auld radically changes throughout the narrative. In Douglas autobiography, she begins as a good hearted woman who has never owned a slave before and instinctively teaches this clever little boy as a mother would. But her husband Hugh finds out and yells at her, saying it's dangerous to educate slaves. Soon she learns cruelty. Like all the others. Douglass never misses a chance in his writing to point out how absolute power corrupts absolutely, how the institution of slavery degrades white people as well as black people.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And how does he develop that writing skill?

[Emily Bernard]

He constantly practices wherever he can. He even tricked little white boys into teaching him to read by bribing them with bread. Age 13, Frederick is fully literate. He also shares his knowledge with others, teaching basic literacy to his fellow enslaved people.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I think it's an incredible demonstration of ingenuity there in itself. He's paying for reading this with bread. With bread. And also just self restraint, like if there's bread in front I can't not eat it. You know what I mean? Like, there's no way I'm giving it to anyone else. Like, especially if there's butter there. Like, game over. I'd be illiterate. I just wouldn't be able to read. So I'm blown away by just how kind of impressive at that stage the young Frederick Douglass is.

[Toussaint Douglas]

But in not remotely surprising news in 1838, when he's about 20 years old, Frederick decides he's going to escape. And how is he going to do this, Emily?

[Emily Bernard]

He was determined to join other escapees, including his Aunt Jenny and Uncle Noah, in the free North. Having failed one escape already, he was aided by Anna Murray, a free black woman who worked as a maid. She paid for his journey. He traveled by railroad disguised as a sailor with fake papers. And although he was nearly caught, he managed to get from Baltimore to Pennsylvania. Anna and Frederick got married in September 1838, initially taking the new surname Johnson, but then opting for Douglas. Upon moving to New Bedford, Massachusetts, in 1841, it was common to change names to avoid recapture. He chose Douglas after the character James Douglas in Walter Scott's narrative poem the lady of the Lake, who's basing his new identity on Scottish romantic history.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Wow. He changes his name to Johnson initially, so he's Frederick Johnson for a bit. And then he's like, no, that's not quite right. I'm gonna be Frederick Douglass. I suppose there is a tiny sliver of beauty in the fact that he gets to choose his name. And the thing that he chooses is a. Comes from passion, comes from a love of literature. He turns to Scottish poetry, Scottish, you know, storytelling.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

In my head, I'm. I'm seeing a thriller there. I'm seeing a kind of Leonardo DiCaprio, catch me if you can kind of scenario where he's kind of changing his identity. Do you know what I mean? He's turns into a sailor. I mean, that's. I wouldn't have any idea how to blag being a sailor, you know, I mean, I'd get found out straight away. I'd be like, people like, go to starboard and like, star. Where the hell is Starport? I'd be like, yeah, don't worry, I'm at the helm. No, you're not meant to be. You know, I have no idea. But this. He blagged it exceptionally.

[Toussaint Douglas]

So by 1841, Frederick Douglass, as he's now called, he's working as a laborer. And you say, you know, you wouldn't be able to mug it As a sailor, actually, he'd done quite a lot of work on the wharves and the shipping. He sort of knows some of the lingo. He's working on the wharves. But he's also becoming an abolitionist. He's making speeches. He becomes a preacher. He's hired by quite a famous white abolitionist called William Lloyd Garrison, who basically says, hey, you are. You're really good at talking. Come lecture tour with me. But he's also. He's going to start writing, Emily?

[Emily Bernard]

Yes. In 1845, he published his first autobiography, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American slave. It deals with his early experiences. Part of his motivation is that his gifts for preaching and speech making were so remarkable that some audiences refused to believe he'd escaped slavery. They said he spoke too well and must be playing the role. So the narrative was about proving his.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Backstory is having to come up against that kind of condescension, right, that almost you're. You're too brilliant as a black person. You can't be that intelligent and that articulate. And the fact that he then went to the lengths of writing a book to disprove it, I mean, that, again, I wouldn't go to that length.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And what's interesting is that he's not just telling it in America in 1845. He's going to go somewhere else. Do you know where he goes, Toussaint?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I think I do know this one.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

He actually comes to good old Blighty.

[Toussaint Douglas]

He does. He hops on a ship and he comes to a tour of the UK and Ireland. Starts in Ireland, in fact. What's the plan here, Emily? Is he. Why is he leaving America? Is it a safety thing?

[Emily Bernard]

Douglass fears being recaptured of his days in America, so He leaves in August 1845. William Lloyd Garrison sends him to Britain and Ireland, where Douglass shocks crowds with his personal testimony, but also with much broader moral critiques of slavery. He starts in Dublin, Ireland, then travels through Scotland, home of Walter Scott, who inspired his name, and finally onto England.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And, yeah, when we say narrative here, we mean Douglas first autobiography called the Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. So he's here for two years doing Ireland, Scotland, England. I don't know if he does Wales. I'm not sure, but he actually quite likes the UK and Ireland. He feels he's got more freedom here and more respect. Obviously, still racism in the uk, but at this time, but I guess better than the USA at that point. And his debut gig in August 1845 is in Dublin. Toussaint do you know what subject he chooses to speak on?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Oh, that's a good question, Greg.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, he's been booked by the American Anti Slavery League, so that's.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, it'd be wild if I didn't say slavery, right? I'm gonna say slavery.

[Toussaint Douglas]

It's a very sensible guess. But no, he starts with temperance.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Okay.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, Emily, why is this renowned speaker, why is he speaking about temperance?

[Emily Bernard]

Douglass was a long term advocate for women's suffrage, and temperance was associated with reducing domestic violence. He also spoke out against poverty in Ireland and in Bristol. He addressed political slavery in England, particularly speaking on practices in the army and Navy and on class inequality. Antislavery remained closest to his heart, but there was a limit to how much support he gave to other movements. Having been friends, he and William Lord Garrison fell out over differences in their abolitionist politics. He also found allies among the Chartists, a political reform movement in England, but was uneasy when they kept equating black slavery in America with the white slaves of an underpaid British workforce. Even worse, later, in 1868, the women's suffrage movement in America started using racist rhetoric and even accepted funding from white supremacist groups. So Douglas withdrew his support.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, I bet he did. So he's got huge intellectual heft. He's clearly a very talented orator. His tour is attracting huge crowds. Toussaint, a lecture he gives in Essex in 1847 is so hectic, people are huddled outside the venue trying to listen in through the window. Which I'm assuming is standard for one of your gigs on a Tuesday night, right?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously. Greg. Gus. They're queuing around the block to see me. Gus. But no, I mean, can you. Can you blame the people of Essex at that time? I mean, this guy is a rock star, right? This guy is coming from America. He's got the chat. He's a celebrity. Do you know what I mean? And also, can we just appreciate how good looking he is? Like, I know this is a predominantly audio medium, but if you're listening to this right now, please take a brief moment to Google Frederick Douglass and you won't be disappointed. This guy is a hunk. All right. Okay. This guy is a 19th century beef cake, and he was one of the most kind of photographed kind of people of the 19th century, right?

[Toussaint Douglas]

You're spot on. He's the most photographed man of the. In fact, most photographed American of the entire 19th century.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Right.

[Toussaint Douglas]

More than Lincoln, Custer, all of your sort of most famous celebs 160photos he poses for one thing. You might not know so much about Frederick Douglass. This is a, this has been an argument made by the scholar Granville Ganter is Frederick Douglass was funny, right? Okay, like really funny, like a master of comedy. I mean, Emily, what kind of comedy is he doing? I mean, comedy. I'm using comedy carefully, but like he's using humor right in his lectures.

[Emily Bernard]

Interestingly, Douglass uses shock humor. He did this through imitation and sending up stereotypes which entertained white audiences while also forcing them to confront their own internalized prejudices. Douglass strongly disliked racist minstrel humor, but exploited audience familiarity with it when performing his own subverted versions.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I mean, trying comedy in any situation is, is fraught with, with peril. Are the audience going to like it? You know, is it that kind of thing? But to do it in those situations where he's trying to convey obviously a really important message as well and realizing that humor can play a part in that. So I think it's shrewd of him, I think, to use comedy in that respect and stuff like that, for sure. And obviously he's understanding the comedic kind of tropes and trends of the day and he's using it and he's subverting those as well, which shows a real kind of sophisticated understanding of comedy as well. Chip off the old block. I am.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Clearly this is so. I mean the trip to the UK and Ireland, obviously highly successful, professionally built, his brand, as you say, Toussaint, he's becoming a celebrity. But it's also, it's life changing for him, Emily, isn't it? Because actually some of the friends he meets are going to do something for him. He hasn't asked them to do it, but they're going to do it anyway.

[Emily Bernard]

In 1847, while staying at Newcastle, Douglas befriended the Quaker sisters, sisters in law, Anna and Ellen Richardson, and they negotiated to legally buy his freedom from Hugh Auld. They did this without involving Douglas and some abolitionists objected, arguing that paying for freedom reinforced the legitimacy of the system and damaged Douglass reputation as a campaigner. But for Douglas, it meant he could tour America without legally being recaptured. He was grateful to his friends and frustrated by the abolitionist politics, but he was free at last.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, it's amazing. So these two women decided to buy his freedom so he can return home to his wife and kids. And when I say kids, we've got Anna the wife. But how many children do they have?

[Emily Bernard]

5. Anna had been single handedly looking after their five kids, all on a lowly maid's wage for two years. She often gets underemphasized in Frederick's story, but she first helped him escape from Maryland and then is an absolute rock when he's in the U.K. at this point, they moved to Rochester, New York, using money donated by his British supporters. Douglass also founds his own newspaper called the North Star. In 1851. This newspaper is renamed Frederick Douglass Paper.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I think the ego's getting to him at that point, isn't he? My name's not on this enough, actually. I need to just make it clear to everyone, this is my paper, all right?

[Toussaint Douglas]

And I'm assuming, Toussaint, you have never launched your own newspaper, but if you did, full of cutting edge political insights.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Oh yeah, 100%. It'd be proper broadsheet stuff. Thick. You're talking 400 pages. You wouldn't be able to get through it in a Sunday. Do you know what I mean? We're really intellectuals. In no way would it be a tabloid at all.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And 1852 is a key year as well, because it's also when he gives an incredibly famous speech. What's the speech called, Emily? And do you want to give us a little bit, please?

[Emily Bernard]

It's called the meaning of July 4th for the Negro. What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer a day that reveals to him more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is a constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham. Your boasted liberty an unholy license. Your national greatness swelling vanity, your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless. Your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence. Your shout of liberty and equality, hollow mockery. Your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings with all your religious parade and solemnity are to him mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety and hypocrisy. A thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, Toussaint, he's not pulling his punches, is he?

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I mean, no. Is he? What he's saying? I think he's very clear. The takeaway is, you know, you're all hypocrites. But I think, yeah, I mean, for me, you know, he's like kind of all the greatest orators, you know, like he's able to kind of conjure up a very incredibly persuasive reimagining of like an existing kind of foundational Text. I think in this case it was like the Constitution, right, Where he's actually kind of saying actually the Constitution. It can be like an anti. It's an anti slavery text. It can be a platform for actually kind of getting rid of slavery and stuff like that and kind of using it against them in that respect.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Absolutely. We then get another autobiography, My Bondage and my freedom, in 1855. So he's returning to his life story for a second time, and then he visits Britain again. And then in 1861, we get the American Civil War, which is an enormous moment. And this is where his voice has real political influence because he. Well, he has this famous relationship with Lincoln. So how does this come about? Emily?

[Emily Bernard]

Douglas began recruiting black soldiers to fight for the north, including two new regiments. But the men weren't getting equal pay to whites. And when they were captured in battle, they were tortured, murdered or enslaved by the Confederates. Douglass was enraged and traveled to Washington D.C. to personally petition President Lincoln. To his credit, Lincoln immediately welcomed him in. They didn't agree on everything, but Lincoln was convinced by Douglass passionate oratory to issue his famed emancipation proclamation of January 1863, which freed all enslaved people in slaveholding states, though not border states, and saw 200,000 black men joining up to fight, including two of Frederick's sons. The Lincoln and Douglass friendship wasn't straightforward. Douglass publicly criticized Lincoln's hesitancy in abolishing slavery. But there was mutual respect. When Lincoln was assassinated in 1865, his wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, actually sent his favorite walking stick to Douglas as testament to their connection.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I mean, it's just fascinating, right? Isn't it? You know, this is someone who has come from slavery as a kid, taught himself kind of how to read, and then is now hobnobbing it with presidents, and is seen by this person as an equivalent, as a political kind of equal in many respects, is respected by this person, which I think tells you a lot about who he was, I think his stature at that time, what he had achieved. And I think Lincoln almost kind of referred to him as a friend.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, I think there is definitely warmth there. Yeah. I mean, the 1860s is where the political idealism is. You know, the war is horrible, but there is an idealism in Reconstruction that fails. The 1870s. We have in the south the Jim Crow laws, you've got lynchings, the Ku Klux Klan. It's a horrible, horrible time to be a free black person. And Douglas is fighting against the political tide. But he's also presumably in danger, Emily. He's A senior black leader, and people are being murdered. So is he in danger?

[Emily Bernard]

Yes, he's not in the south, but he faces big challenges. In 1872, his house burned down. Nobody was hurt, but arson was a possibility. So he moved his family to Washington, D.C. became federal marshal of the District of Columbia, meaning he was the first ever African American to be chosen for a role by the President and approved by the senate. And by 1881, he was onto his third autobiography, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass.

[Toussaint Douglas]

I mean, Emily, I have to ask, why does he keep writing autobiographies? You know, is he sort of the sort of George Lucas of his time? He can't help but tinker with his. You know, he has to keep coming back to the same thing over and over. Or is he. Is he growing and changing? As a writer, Douglass changes his style.

[Emily Bernard]

And presentation with each autobiography appealing to new audiences or aligning with new causes. The 1845 narrative fits into the genre of slave narratives, often published and prefaced by white abolitionists. Garrison just wanted Douglass to describe his experience of slavery, not denounce it. But this also means that the narrative puts the reader in the same position as Frederick as a young child witnessing the horrors of slavery without a framework for interpreting them. Then in My Bondage and My Freedom, 1855, Douglass presents himself more definitively as a black leader shaped by the black women role models who raised him, his mother and grandmother. But he also depicts himself through tropes of the American self made man, with ambition, self improvement and hard work being key. By 1881, the life and Times presents Douglass as an intellectual, applying analytical thinking. So each book shows a different aspect.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Yeah, so he is using his life as a. As a frame of reference, but he's doing something different each time. So I guess, yeah, I'm not gonna criticize Frederick Douglass. It's fine. I'm just sort of, you know, the publisher's like another life story. Okay. And we've already talked about this, Toussaint, but you know, his photography, right? He's. You say he's hot when he's young. He's. He's hot at every age.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, the guy's got it. You could. And he obviously liked taking photographs. I mean, you don't take 160 photographs if you don't like it. You know, I mean, I imagine if he was around today, he'd be the guy taking, like, selfies at protest. You know what I mean? He'd just.

[Toussaint Douglas]

But, Emily, there's a reason for his use of photography. He's not just a political orator, he's a philosopher of art. He's interested in the camera, what it can do for black people, for emancipation, isn't he?

[Emily Bernard]

Black people had often been depicted with racist, exaggerated facial features. So Douglas loved how the camera captured the truth. It's important too, to reflect on the dearth of positive public images of black folk. You were in the paper either because you were lynched or you were being comedically degraded. Frederick Douglass issued 160 different photographs of himself throughout his life, becoming the most photographed American of the entire 19th century.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And he's spending all this time away on tour, Emily. I mean, we've heard about two years in the UK and Ireland, but like, he's always touring throughout these decades of life. Does he at least enjoy a cozy retirement with his wife Anna and the kids? You know, does he ever put his feet up?

[Emily Bernard]

Sadly, Anna Douglas died in 1882. Frederick was very depressed for a while, but he remarried in 1884, in his mid-60s, to Helen Pitts, a younger white woman whose family he knew. She was a suffrage campaigner. Her parents were abolitionists, but did not approve of the marriage. It caused a national backlash. Some black people were angry he married a white woman. Many white people were disgusted. And Douglass kids were not keen on seeing their mother replaced. Douglass, however, said of his second wife, it proves I'm impartial. My first wife was the color of my mother and the second the color of my father.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And Helen Pitts was also very important in preserving his image later on when he died. But yeah, Anna Murray, 40 years of marriage, I think, and that's very sad. Does Helen, the second wife, does she get Frederick Douglass to slow down? I'm guessing the answer is no, Emily.

[Emily Bernard]

No rest. Between 1886 and 1887, Helen and Frederick traveled throughout Europe, visiting England, France, Italy, Egypt and Greece. He was also appointed as minister and consul to the Republic of Haiti in 1889. It was a prestigious job, but such was the ongoing racism. He was refused first class travel and had a naval captain refuse to sit with him at dinner. In 1895, he dies at the age of 77, having recently returned from a women's rights convention.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's sad, isn't it? I think he did so much, but it just shows that even, even with all that, there is still that ongoing everyday racism, you know, which is a thing now, but was still, you know, was a thing then as well, they had to contend with and the fact.

[Toussaint Douglas]

That he died, you know, returning from a women's suffrage conference. You know, he. He was still putting in the work in his 70s for other people's fights. So, you know, this is a guy who just fights the good fight wherever he finds it. It's extraordinary. The nuance window. That's the end of our narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass, which means it's time for the nuance window. This is where Toussaint and I sit back for two minutes and let Professor Emily give her own speech for two minutes. So when you're ready, give the nuance window, please.

[Emily Bernard]

It feels a bit strange to go on about the beauty of Frederick Douglass writing when he used his literary talents always in the grave service of liberation, not just for black people, but for all people. But Douglass, statesman, prophet, political theorist, orator, was primarily an artist. Historian and Douglass biographer David Blight calls him a prose poet on the meaning of America. Whether he was extolling the promise of the Union or criticizing the United States for its hypocrisies and failed promises, he did so with the eye and ear of an artist. He understood how language worked. Slavery itself amounted ultimately to a collection of words. Douglass used the language denied him by law not only to imagine freedom for his people, but to test out its cadence. He found meaning in the rhythms of the King James Bible and saw in particular the Hebrew prophets as companions. Douglass was fearless and incisive in his critiques of Christianity. Much of his narrative is devoted to demonstrating carefully how true Christianity is incompatible with the practice of slavery. Over his lifetime, his views on the faith of his childhood evolved. But the language that captured him as a child, that mesmerized him, never failed to provide him with the stories, wisdom, and language he needed to make his ageless critique of the country of his birth. As much as he was admired as an orator, Douglass was a writer first. He was not an extemporaneous speaker. Like any writer, he did his thinking on the page. He was himself defined and liberated by the written word. And that's why he returned again and again to the page to deliver the same freedom he found there to others. What Douglass left us in his writings was not only indisputable evidence that black people were human, capable of reason, capable art. Not only did he leave us with his philosophies, political theories, rhetorical masterpieces, complex arguments and treatises, he left us with a subtle, nuanced portrait of the interior life of the enslaved person. He did this with the simplest and most accurate of metaphors that connected his own story to the most timeless of stories. He achieved this greatness, the only way possible, by practicing.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you so much, Emily. All that's left for me to say is a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the brilliant Professor Emily Bernard from the University of Vermont. Thank you, Emily.

[Emily Bernard]

Oh, thank you. I've had a great time.

[Toussaint Douglas]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thank you, Toussaint.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Thanks so much for having me. This has been fascinating and also just really fun and entertaining as well. Yeah. So thanks a lot. Really enjoyed it.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Thank you for your knowledge and to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we ascend the lectern of rhetorical excellence with two more brilliant guests. But for now, I'm off to go and shave my beard into a glorious goatee. Bye. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, this Is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales.

[Emily Bernard]

From World War II.

[Toussaint Douglas]

None of them knew that she'd lived this double life.

[Emily Bernard]

They had no idea that she was Britain's top female codebreaker.

[Toussaint Douglas]

We'll hear of daring risk takers.

[Emily Bernard]

What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian Mountains in -40.

[Greg Jenner]

Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Helping people was his blood.

[Toussaint Douglas]

Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC South.

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