Georgian Courtship (Radio Edit)

Summary

Summary of "Georgian Courtship (Radio Edit)" Episode of You're Dead to Me

Podcast Title: You're Dead to Me
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests:

• Dr. Sally Holloway: Vice Chancellor's Research Fellow in History and History of Art at Oxford Brookes University
• Cariad Lloyd: Comedian, actor, improviser, author, and podcaster

Release Date: April 18, 2025

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Introduction to Georgian Britain

In this episode titled Georgian Courtship, Greg Jenner dives into the intricate world of love and courtship during Georgian Britain (1714-1830). Joined by historian Dr. Sally Holloway and comedian Cariad Lloyd, the discussion blends scholarly insights with humor to explore how romance was navigated in an era marked by strict social mores and evolving cultural norms.

Greg Jenner (00:06): "Hello, and welcome to you're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously."

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Understanding the Georgian Era

Who Were the Georgians?

Dr. Sally Holloway provides a foundational understanding of Georgian Britain, emphasizing it as the period ruled by the Hanoverian kings—from George I to George IV. This era, often referred to as the "long 18th century," was a time of significant social and cultural transformations.

Dr. Sally Holloway (03:16): "Georgian Britain, it's the period from about 1714 to 1830. It's when it's ruled by the Hanoverian kings, George I, second, third, fourth and we commonly refer to the era generally as the long 18th century."

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Courtship Rituals and Social Dynamics

The Strategic Blend of Love and Pragmatism

While strategic alliances based on social standing and economic stability were crucial, Dr. Holloway highlights that romantic love was becoming increasingly important, especially among the middling and genteel classes.

Dr. Sally Holloway (04:33): "I think actually it's a lot more about romantic love than you think. ... This whole ideology of love became much, much more important during the 18th century."

Age Dynamics in Courtship

Greg Jenner and Cariad Lloyd discuss the typical age ranges for marriageable men and women, estimating men in their mid-20s and women in their late teens to early twenties.

Dr. Sally Holloway (05:48): "Women were typically 23, 24. Men were mid-20s, maybe 26, 27, 28."

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Venues and Methods of Meeting Potential Partners

Social Gatherings and Public Spaces

Courtship often took place in controlled environments such as friends' homes, theaters, card parties, and church gatherings. These settings allowed for gradual and supervised interactions.

Cariad Lloyd (05:12): "For me, the funniest thing is how much walking they did... And the promenades as well."

The Importance of Visibility

Being seen with a potential suitor was essential, as it signified mutual interest and social acceptance. Public walks and promenades were common ways to display one's availability and interest.

Cariad Lloyd (06:33): "For me, the funniest thing is how much walking they did... And the promenades as well."

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The Courtship Process

Gift Giving: Tokens of Affection

Gift-giving was a significant aspect of courtship, with the nature and value of the gifts reflecting the giver's social status. Dr. Holloway explains that gifts ranged from simple ribbons and flowers to elaborate jewelry as relationships progressed.

Dr. Sally Holloway (08:35): "Basic gifts varied according to social class. Poorer individuals might offer posies or engraved coins, while wealthier suitors could present brooches and eventually rings."

The Role of Stay Busks

Stay busks—corset supports engraved with symbols like hearts or initials—served as intimate tokens, often containing hidden compartments for personal mementos such as lock of hair.

Dr. Sally Holloway (09:19): "They could unscrew and put a lock of your hair, bringing the two bodies together."

Navigating Public Perception

Public displays of affection, such as holding hands or sneaking off for kisses, had to be discreet due to societal expectations and the presence of chaperones.

Dr. Sally Holloway (09:53): "Women in their diaries talk about sneaking off to a back room for kisses with men."

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Correspondence: The Serious Art of Letter Writing

Letters as Commitment

Letters were not casual communications but serious declarations of intent and emotion. They were carefully crafted on high-quality paper, often adorned with gold leaf and multiple postscript additions to demonstrate the writer's dedication and affection.

Dr. Sally Holloway (13:15): "The time you're putting into this letter is the time that you're putting into your lover."

Public Scrutiny and Coded Messages

Letters were typically read by family members or friends, necessitating subtlety and coded language to express true feelings without overt declarations.

Dr. Sally Holloway (14:55): "You'd send it unsealed, so then again, everyone could open it and read it all through."

Cariad Lloyd (14:56): "It's not even WhatsApp. They're just sending anything. The server was completely open."

The Impact of Rising Literacy

Increasing literacy rates and an improved postal system made letter writing a more intimate and immediate medium for courtship, further embedding it into the romantic practices of the time.

Dr. Sally Holloway (12:32): "Letters could be sent much, much more quickly because of the professionalization of the postal system."

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Poetry: A Vehicle for Romance

Displaying Education and Sensibility

Poetry was a crucial tool for wooing, allowing suitors to showcase their literary skills and emotional depth. Dr. Holloway notes that poetry was intertwined with the "cult of sensibility," reflecting a person's moral and emotional refinement.

Dr. Sally Holloway (17:52): "It's a key vehicle for wooing... It's all really underpinned by the cult of sensibility."

Example: Joseph Strutt's Poetry

Cariad Lloyd humorously recites a poem by cotton trader Joseph Strutt, illustrating how poetry was often used to list desirable qualities in a potential spouse rather than genuine expressions of love.

Cariad Lloyd (16:17): "[Recites a poem] ... 'Let virtue be your guide. Walk hand in hand with prudence by your side.'"

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LGBTQ Relationships in Georgian Britain

Evidence of Same-Sex Relationships

Dr. Holloway acknowledges the existence of same-sex relationships during this period, though evidence is scarce due to societal taboos and the destruction of personal letters. Examples include:

• Anne Lister: Often described as the first modern lesbian, she exchanged rings and transformed her marital ring to signify her commitment to Marianne Lawton.

Dr. Sally Holloway (19:22): "She turned Marianne's wedding ring from her husband on her finger... making a new promise of marriage."

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Marriage and Its Legal Implications

High Rates of Premature Pregnancy

A significant percentage of Georgian brides were reportedly pregnant at the time of their wedding, which had substantial legal and social ramifications.

Dr. Sally Holloway (20:54): "She could sue him for breach of promise, for financial damages for her hurt."

Breach of Promise Suits

If a man broke off an engagement, he could face hefty legal penalties, including financial damages, which served as a deterrent against frivolous courtships.

Dr. Sally Holloway (21:31): "Jurors could order enormous damages in the hope that it would make them concede to marry."

Power Dynamics Post-Marriage

Marriage fundamentally altered the balance of power, placing women in a subordinate role within the household despite their initial upper hand during courtship.

Dr. Sally Holloway (24:37): "Once the knot was tied, women were then in a much more subordinate position to the patriarch."

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Weddings and Honeymoons

Characteristics of Georgian Weddings

Unlike the grandiose weddings often depicted in modern media, Georgian weddings were more subdued, focusing on new attire rather than extravagant ceremonies.

Cariad Lloyd (22:42): "It wouldn't be white, necessarily. It would be flowered and it wouldn't necessarily be like, on a Sunday."

Honeymoon Practices

Honeymoons were modest affairs, often accompanied by a female family member to help the bride transition into her new role.

Dr. Sally Holloway (23:47): "The bride's sister often went with her."

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Final Reflections on Georgian Marriage

Indissolubility and High Stakes

Marriage during the Georgian era was considered an indissoluble bond, with significant emphasis on making prudent and compatible matches to avoid lifelong incompatibility.

Dr. Sally Holloway (24:37): "Marriage was the indissolvable knot which nothing but death can sunder."

Parallels to Modern Times

Cariad Lloyd draws parallels between Georgian and contemporary marriage, noting that despite societal changes, the challenges and commitments associated with marriage remain strikingly similar.

Cariad Lloyd (26:02): "Divorce is a very painful and difficult, expensive, emotionally painful experience. ... finding someone ... isn't a simple process."

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Conclusion

Georgian Courtship offers a nuanced exploration of love and marriage in Georgian Britain, highlighting the blend of romantic ideals and pragmatic considerations that governed relationships. Through engaging dialogue and historical insights, Greg Jenner, Dr. Sally Holloway, and Cariad Lloyd illuminate how courtship rituals have evolved while retaining echoes of their historical origins.

Greg Jenner (24:07): "Dr. Sally, can we have the nuance window, please?"

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For listeners eager to delve deeper into similar topics, Greg Jenner recommends other episodes exploring diverse aspects of Georgian society and historical figures.

Greg Jenner (26:23): "If you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with your friends."

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Note: This summary captures the essence of the "Georgian Courtship (Radio Edit)" episode, emphasizing key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes to provide a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Cariad Lloyd]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are channeling our inner Colin Firths and emerging soaking wet from the lake of History to bring you a special guide to love and courtship in Georgian Britain. To help us navigate this topic with Sense and Sensibility, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a Vice Chancellor's Research Fellow in History and History of Art at Oxford Brookes University, where she studies the history of gender and emotions in 18th and 19th century Britain. Indeed, she's the author of the Game of Love in Georgian Courtship, Emotions and Material Culture. Perfect for us, it's Dr. Sally Holloway. Welcome, Sally.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor, improviser, author and podcaster. A quintuple threat. You'll know her from the award winning podcast Griefcast, which is now a beautiful book. And you'll have seen her on all the the telly, including Cavolt News for your QI and Would A Lie to youo. But more importantly, you'll remember her from our podcast episodes on the European witch craze, Malleus maleficarum and Agrippina the Younger. It's the wonderful Cariad Lloyd. Welcome back, Cariad.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, Mr. Jenner, what a pleasure it is to finally be invited to your salon. I blush. Indeed. My countenance is not so fair. And to meet Ms. Sally as well, whose work I have admired from afar, I must confess. Tis more than one could ask for on such a fine and temperate morning.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, I'm so excited. We've fully committed.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Yes. She is also a member of Jane Austen improv show Ostentatious, and would speak like that at any opportunity.

[Greg Jenner]

I was going to say this is a reflex for you, right? I mean, ostentatious. A brilliant improv comedy troupe. That means I'm guessing you're already an expert on Georgian social mores.

[Cariad Lloyd]

I definitely wouldn't use the word expert. Mr. Jenner, as kind as you are to my expert skills. No, no, I am more of a flitterer of such aff. I know a little bit, but definitely not as much as the excellent professor.

[Greg Jenner]

So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener will know about today's subject. And I'm willing to bet quite a lot listeners will at least watch One Jane Austen adaptation. They get bloomin everywhere. Maybe you swoon over Rickman and Winslet in Sense and Sensibility or Colin Firth in his sexy see through shirt in Pride and Prejudice. Or perhaps you're one of the astonishing 82 million people who watch Bridgerton. Or the slightly fewer number of people who were charmed by Mr. Malcolm's list. Still a very nice movie. Or maybe you fell for Anya Taylor Joy's Emma or Dakota Johnson's sort of fleabag style mugging in Persuasion. There's love and friendship, my favourite with the very funny Kate Beckinsale. Basically there's loads and loads of stuff. This is one of the most romanticized eras in British history and I say romanticized in both meanings of the word. But what were the real rules and rituals of courtship in Georgian Britain? What did a man of good fortune do when in want of a wife? Well, today we are going to lay out a how to dating guide so we're going to crack on. And Dr. Sally, basics first for our listeners who aren't entirely familiar with the Georgians as an era. Who, what, when, why, how, what are the Georgians?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

So Georgian Britain, it's the period from about 1714 to 1830. It's when it's ruled by the Hanoverian kings, George I, second, third, fourth and we commonly refer to the era generally as the long 18th century. So it's a time of massive social and cultural change and we're going to be talking about the typical journey that a so called ordinary person might go on as they search for a spouse.

[Greg Jenner]

If we're going to have a dating guide, we need to have a couple. So let's imagine our typical middle class London living singleton, Caryad, what's his name?

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, Mr. Barnaby Sykes.

[Greg Jenner]

Surely Mr. Barnaby Sykes. And Barnaby is thinking of finding a wife. It's that time. And what do you think his motivation is for joining the marriage market? Carryad?

[Cariad Lloyd]

I can only imagine, dear Mr. Jenner, that he is looking to improve his circumstances somewhat. Normally that's what it is. At George I'm struggling to keep up the constant Georgian voice because it's quite difficult to answer a question. Mr. Sykes. Well it depends what his parents do really, doesn't it? And what he needs to get to make sure he keeps where he is or moves upwards, not entirely to do with love. Who's in his circle that he would think would be a good wife, bearer of children and hopefully bring in some cash.

[Greg Jenner]

Sally, are we agreeing with Kariad's analysis there for the middling Sort.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

I think actually it's a lot more about romantic love than you think. So, like, yes, it is important to make a strategic match, but a strategic match with someone who you were in love with. This whole ideology of love became much, much more important during the 18th century, particularly for middling and genteel people like Mr. Barnaby Sykes. People like that would have found that was being celebrated right across culture, you know, in the novels they read and the poetry they read and the art they saw and philosophy. And it wasn't this sort of frothy idea, but actually something that was really important in revealing your morality and your refinement as a civilized person.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Greg Jenner]

But there is that line from Matthew Bolton, don't marry for money, but marry where money is.

[Cariad Lloyd]

That is so funny, because it also sounds a bit like a Michael Bolton lyric. And I'm like, are Matthew and Michael related? Don't marry for love. Find where it is.

[Greg Jenner]

How old do you think our bachelor, Mr. Barnaby Sykes is? And what's the age range of ladies that he is seeking to match with?

[Cariad Lloyd]

So I imagine Barnaby being like, 21. And I think girls were sort of on the scene from 17, 18.

[Greg Jenner]

Sally.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

That's a pretty good guess. Yeah. I mean, women were typically, you know, 23, 24. Men were mid-20s, maybe 26, 27, 28.

[Greg Jenner]

So our young romantic hopeful, Barnaby Sykes, has decided to fall in love. But how does he find a date?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Middling and genteel people, family and friends were really important. And you might meet someone at one of their houses, you know, in a group of friends that you were all going to the theatre together, you might card party. Card parties? Yeah, gaming. Or visits for tea or cake or dinner. Or you might meet people walking to church and back. Or if you were much poorer, you might meet someone at a fair. It wasn't completely calculated, but it also doesn't mean that you could do anything you wanted for love. You were just sort of gently shepherded into the right direction.

[Cariad Lloyd]

For me, the funniest thing is how much walking they did, like, the walking around the room. It's like when you think of the levels you go to when there isn't a television to watch. And the promenades as well. Like, going for a promenade in town was such a thing.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

So much walking, walking out in public squares, walking through town, walking around in front of other people.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Yes, because then also, if you're being gently shepherded, what you're saying is, I was out walking with Barnaby Sykes and everybody saw me.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Out walking with Barnaby Sykes. There's no point walking with Barnaby Sykes if no one can see you doing it.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got our Barnaby Sykes. The lady he's chatting to is rather boring, but he spots a hot young lady on the other side of the room and she is called Carryad.

[Cariad Lloyd]

He does see past the children squabbling, and Mr. Henriksen going on again the finest pair of eyes he has ever set upon. It was, of course, Miss Lydia. Miss Chester.

[Greg Jenner]

Ooh. All right, so we've got Barnaby and Lydia. They've met across a crowded room and their families are willing to drift them in. But what's the next stage of Georgian dating? Then?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

He might sort of open it by offering her some gifts to see how interested she is and how well they're received.

[Cariad Lloyd]

So if she's like, all right, thanks. He's like, well, back away. But if she's like, like, what is it like? Brooches, necklaces? Like, how much money does he have to spend?

[Greg Jenner]

You've gone big there, Kerry.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Well, I want to know. I want to know what's gonna turn up my door.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Well, I've studied one guy who. He offers sweets and she accepts them. But then the next day, she puts her head down and walks past him on the other side of the street. Oh, it wasn't a successful offering.

[Greg Jenner]

That is brutal.

[Cariad Lloyd]

You're dead to me.

[Greg Jenner]

You're dead to me. There we go.

[Cariad Lloyd]

God, that's harsh, isn't it? Because I feel like, for the blokes, you've got to invest a bit here, haven't you, when you're not sure?

[Greg Jenner]

Sweets is one option, but that can backfire. Carrie adds brooches. Is that a bit too fancy or.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Is brooch good only once you're much further in, so you'd open with something quite cheap, like a ribbon, and then escalate towards the end, offering things like rings and jewellery.

[Cariad Lloyd]

A new trim for your bonnet, miss. Miss Chester. Oh, indeed. Thank you so much, Mr. Sykes. And green to match my eyes. You are kind. Yes, that sort of thing. But building up to, hopefully, like, emeralds.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Basically, the things that you selected varied massively according to social class. So if you were poorer, you might gift things that you could collect for free, like posies of flowers that you collect from a meadow. Coins that you'd engraved by hand. You smooth it to a blank face and then engrave, you know, someone's initials on it.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, wow.

[Cariad Lloyd]

I've sanded off the king and I've put I love you. On it. Oh, thank you, sir. It's all right. I'm afraid Mr. Sykes is coming at any moment. I must excuse myself. Oh, my God. That's really creepy. The coin.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

And then stay busks. You'd insert a stay busk down the front of your corset. They'd be engraved with things like hearts and flowers and initials. And sometimes some of them have little secret compartments in the back that you could unscrew and put a lock of your hair, bringing the two bodies together. The body of the woman who wears it and the body of the man whose hair is in it.

[Greg Jenner]

So two hearts next to each other and then a bit of hair to make it creepy?

[Cariad Lloyd]

Yeah, it was like. Yeah. You say two hearts. What you mean is a woman's body and some hair pressed against it.

[Greg Jenner]

Barnaby and Lydia have not had a smooch yet. Are they holding hands at this stage?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah, people hold hands. And, you know, women in their diaries talk about sneaking off to a back room for kisses with men.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay. And Karriad, we're gonna show you some specific types of love tokens that were gifted by wealthier individuals. And we're gonna show you some images now and you can describe them for us.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, I'm excited. I hope it's a lock of creepy hair. Whoa.

[Greg Jenner]

It's not far off.

[Cariad Lloyd]

A lock of creepy hair. Wow. So it's two. Well, one is a locket where someone has painted very small a mouth, but they have not painted anything else, so I assume they're saying, look, here is my lips for you, but it looks super creepy. And there's a brooch where someone's only done an eye, and it seems to be surrounded by pearls and it seems to be crying diamonds. I guess in those times, that was romantic. But it looks really weird. Like, why is it crying diamonds?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

It's a woman's eye, and it's about the purity of her love.

[Greg Jenner]

And then the lips are for kissing. Do you kiss the locket?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah. People kiss their love letters. They kiss their gifts. They kissed, you know, lips in pictures like this. It's all about creating that feeling of being together and creating an emotional bond at a distance, at a time when you couldn't just send someone a text.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely. All right, so we've got various gifts you can give, but let's move on to another tool of courtship rituals. And this is a really big one. This is very important, actually. Cariad really fancy someone and you're trying to, like, lock them down and make this legit. What do you do Next.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, so it's not gift.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a gift of sorts. I'm thinking more communicating your thoughts.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, a love letter.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, love letter.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Ah, love letter. A missive. Sorry? A love missive.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Romantic epistle.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Sorry, I beg your pardon?

[Greg Jenner]

After the gift giving, or perhaps parallel to the gift giving, is the writing your thoughts and feelings and declaring your love on paper.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah. Once a couple embarked on a romantic correspondence, that was a sure sign that they were on the road to an engagement. You didn't just correspond with anybody in that vein. And some dads wouldn't let men correspond with their daughters until they had proven to them that they had the means to marry.

[Cariad Lloyd]

He's not coming around here with his letters. Do we know what his intentions are? Keep your second class stamps to yourself, please, Mr. Sikes. My intentions are good, sir. Yeah. Oh, my God. I didn't realize. I thought the letters were, like, casual.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

It was like the opposite of casual. It was serious. And women in these letters, they described how hesitant they were to start this correspondence because they knew the degree of commitment that it entailed. So a lot of it is women saying, oh, I'm not sure about this.

[Greg Jenner]

The increase of the letter's importance is also to do with rising literacy rates. This is an era where more people can read and write.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

So letter writing is becoming this really, really important way of forming a person's identity and formulating feelings. And the letters could be sent much, much more quickly because of the professionalization of the postal system and improvement of the country's road networks. So it's becoming more immediate and more intimate. The letter itself was a really important sort of gift, just like the tokens we've been talking about. So it had to be written on really good quality paper. So it might be gilded with little gold leaf around the edges, be several pages in length with loads of postscripts at the end. So at the end of them, it often says, you know, P.S. 1, P.S. 2, P.S.

[Cariad Lloyd]

P.S.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

4, P.S. 5. Because you want to give this impression that you just can't tear yourself away from the page.

[Cariad Lloyd]

You hang up. No, you hang up.

[Greg Jenner]

No, you hang up.

[Cariad Lloyd]

No, you hang up. PS1. My PS4.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Exactly. Oh, my God.

[Cariad Lloyd]

That's so interesting.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

The time you're putting into this letter is the time that you're putting into your lover. It's a material device, you know, through which you're building this relationship.

[Greg Jenner]

All right, so we've got quite a sort of important script of dating here. Where are they learning how to do this? Are Mom and dad explaining it, are they reading it in?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

I mean, to some extent it comes from literature. So, I mean, if you were very devout, people made a lot of references to the Bible, Book of Common Prayer, things like Paradise Lost. That was a way to show their piety and perhaps, you know, have a few theological debates with your lover, you know.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Not to brag, but I've just finished Paradise Lost, so if you want to chat through some of the main themes, I can send you my essay.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

It's showing you clever, you know, it's showing your wit and your skill and your education. You're having these debates in writing. It's showing, are you literally on the same page with this person or not? You know, are you compatible with them or not?

[Greg Jenner]

And the other thing to mention here, Carrie Anne, is these letters, they're not private.

[Cariad Lloyd]

No, I guess not. Because you always have to have a chaperone. Right. So even when you're walking, someone should be walking a little behind you. Older sister or mother or aunt or someone. So I guess your letters are being read. So is that why, then you're going a bit more in code? You're hoping the parents haven't read Paradise Lost? They won't know what I'm talking about.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

That's why you're going more in code through the gifts. You can't spell it out in writing because everyone's reading your letters, right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

As a woman, your friends would read a man's letters, your mum might read them, your aunties might read them and then they might help you write the response as well. And then often you'd send it unsealed. So this was before people used envelopes. You'd send it, not sealed, so then again, everyone could open it and read it all through.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, wow. So it's not even secure communication. Right.

[Cariad Lloyd]

It's not even WhatsApp. They're just sending anything. The server was completely open.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. The lack of security on the old sending back your message is a bit worrying.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

People said things in their letters like, oh, I've got so much to say to you, but, you know, perhaps I'll save it for when we're in person. Because they didn't want to write it down because everyone's going to, you know, don't want everyone else to read it.

[Greg Jenner]

The next thing we were going to talk to you about, Karriad, was poetry. That's another huge element of the courting here, is the either writing your own or quoting your sort of favourite poets, quoting bits and bobs. And actually, we've got a cotton trader called Joseph Strutt, where he's not even really trying to woo the lady he loves. He's just sort of listing the virtues he's demanding in a wife. He's like, this is what I'm looking for. You must meet all these criteria. Wisdom, virtue, modesty, prudence. All the hot ones. But, Kariad, we thought maybe you'd like to read us Mr. Joseph Strutt's poetry.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, yes, Mr. Strutt. Cotton Trader already. He's on thin ice morally, isn't he, to judge everybody else for being wise and prudent and morally high.

[Greg Jenner]

He's probably quite comfortably well off on.

[Cariad Lloyd]

The back of everybody else. Yep.

[Greg Jenner]

But this is his poetry.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Where's he from?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Birmingham, I think.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Birmingham. Like that. So young, so blooming and so void of art. A certain conquest makes of every heart so sweet an air Such dignity of mine an eye a form so fair is seldom seen but these will fade and where's the substitute? Where of so fine blossom is the fruit? Sorry, Mr. Strutt. My love, your young study with nicest care so make yourself as wise as you are fair Good sense you have Let virtue be your guide. Walk hand in hand with prudence by your side. Let every word and every action show what steps you follow, what paths. Purshoo. Pursue and shoo and pursue is how they used to say it.

[Greg Jenner]

Beautifully done. I love the switch. Midway through.

[Cariad Lloyd]

I thought, to be fair to the people of Birmingham, I would stop.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

I just realised after I said that. He's from Derby. Sorry.

[Cariad Lloyd]

So young, so blooming, so void of art. No, he won't do it again.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So he's writing a sort of list of things he's looking for in his wife. So he's a bit pushy, really. It's not really courting so much as. Here are the criteria you've got to meet if you want to land a man like me.

[Cariad Lloyd]

You think, Mr. Strut, I shall read this poems and forget Mr. Sykes?

[Greg Jenner]

No.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Although you have far more to offer monetarily than he does. My heart belongs to Barnaby and always will.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, Sally, what is the value of poetry? Why send a poem? What are you hoping to achieve?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

It's a key vehicle for wooing. You know, it's. Men are showing off their literary skill, their education, their verbal agility. But it's all really underpinned by the cult of sensibility, which sort of emerged around the 1720s, 30s and peaked around 1770s, 80s. He's showing that he's romantic he's in touch. He's a person of feeling.

[Cariad Lloyd]

That's so funny though, because he's like, picked up on the trend. I've got to write a poem. It's got to show my feelings. What are my feelings? I need you to be prudent wise. Those are my feelings. What I want you to be.

[Greg Jenner]

And we've been talking about Barnaby and Lydia, but, I mean, the obvious question here, Sally, is do we have evidence of LGBTQ relationships of, you know, ladies who fancied ladies and gents who fancy gents? Because there are dangers and there are perils there, genuine perils. But there must have been those sorts of relationships. What do we know of them?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah, I mean, of course there were. You know, we do have evidence of really enormously intense romantic relationships between same sex couples in this period. So one example is the American schoolteacher, Charity Bryant. She was a tailor as well, and she exchanged all sorts of poems and across with women that she was interested in. And they also exchanged accessories, things like jewellery, like hairpins. And they used rings to signify a lifelong commitment as well. And we have, you know, examples in England too. So the Yorkshire heiress Anne Lister is the most famous one. You know, she's often described as the first modern lesbian. In 1821, she gave her partner, Marianne Lawton, a gold ring.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Wow.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

This is my favorite bit. She turned Marianne's wedding ring from her husband on her finger. So it was already on there, but Anne turned it around in order to make this new promise of marriage over the top of the one that she'd already made.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Wow.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

So it's interesting because you can see that in some cases they're appropriating these rituals used by straight couples, like the exchange of a ring to form a marriage, even if it didn't have the same sort of legal backing. But, I mean, the evidence is much more difficult to find because, you know, so often the letters were destroyed and they're obviously not going to be shared around family and friends in the same way as the ones that we've been talking about. And often we do have to rely on evidence in a legal context, so things like trials for assault or indecency between men. But yeah, couples did exchange letters and they did exchange tokens and they did use these in similar ways to build really intense relationships.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, we've got Barnaby and Lydia before he takes her up the aisle. Wink, wink, nudge, notch. Before they walk up the aisle, we, I guess, need to talk about one of these sort of really fascinating facts that historians of the 18th century know quite well, but I think people are quite surprised to hear. Let's see if you know this one. Kariad. What percentage of Georgian brides were pregnant on their wedding day?

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, maybe higher than we think.

[Greg Jenner]

What would you think is a sort of normal guess that people might say.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Someone who's terrible with percentages. Like genuinely 40%?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I think that's about right. It's just over a third, isn't it?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

It's a good guess.

[Greg Jenner]

But what would happen if the marriage did not take place?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah. I mean, one recourse that she would have had Lydia say she became pregnant and then she thought they were about to get married and then he deserted her. She could sue him for breach of promise, for financial damages for her hurt, and it was aggravated by factors like pregnancy.

[Cariad Lloyd]

He still wouldn't have to marry her, though, so she'd still be.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Well, sometimes juries could order enormous damages in the hope that that would make them conduce him to offer his hand, because he'd think, oh, my God, I'm about to be utterly, utterly ruined unless we get married.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Which is a great way to start any unit. Absolutely brilliant. Forced by a jury of your peers. It was that all bankruptcy. So I thought, my darling, my dearest darling. Ps. I will marry you.

[Greg Jenner]

So Lydia could sue Barnaby even if you were not pregnant?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

He'd breached his contract to marry, therefore she could sue him for damages, but also for her hurt feelings.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, the settlements issued by the courts were big. I mean, they're quite a lot of money, aren't they? I mean, they're 250quid, which was probably two years earnings for a middling person. That's a lot of money to cough up at once.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

It shows, sort of, in one sense, the courts are sort of tipping the balance of power towards women. You did have that legal recourse if you needed it. But also it was because of this presumption that women suffered much more than than men from romantic hurt. So men, in many ways were expected to get over it, whereas women, often biologically incapable of getting over it in some ways in popular culture, because they were so much more sensitive and consumed with feeling.

[Greg Jenner]

The sort of Miss Havisham effect.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's assume Lydia and Barnaby have not thrown a little way. Love has won out in the end. Hooray.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Hooray.

[Greg Jenner]

What's the wedding gonna look like, Cariad?

[Cariad Lloyd]

Very different to ours. It's not what you expect. It's not the white dress, necessarily. It would be Like a nice dress, basically, for a ma from perhaps some nice new material, if you could afford it. And it wouldn't necessarily be white, it would be flowered and it wouldn't necessarily be like, on a Sunday, like we have. And I know that probably Pride and Prejudice ends with the double wedding. I think that wasn't that uncommon, was it, to, like, you shared it with things or it happened on a normal day that you got married. It wasn't like, this is our wedding, everybody needs to clear their schedules. You all need to pay £500,000 to come and stay in a country hotel that's miles from where you live. Like, it wasn't that kind of affair, was it?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

No, it's a bit more under the radar, a bit more just you, A few friends, your parents maybe, might buy some new clothes. Didn't have to. And if you did, you wouldn't just wear it once, you'd then continue wearing it afterwards. But you might wear silver and white, especially if you're very wealthy towards the end of the century. But, yeah, it wasn't until the Victorians you had this big white wedding.

[Greg Jenner]

And what about honeymoons, Sally? Do you go on a big honeymoon? Do you go to Paris? Do you take two weeks off to go and tour the counties?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Might have a little honeymoon, but it wouldn't necessarily be on your own. The bride's sister often went with her.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, nice. Oh, lovely.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Just to help sort of ease her into this new role as a wife. It was quite a shock to the system, I think, for a lot of people, being completely on your own with a partner when you only just married them and you know, you've got a new family, new life, new household. If you think like Mr. And Mrs. Rushworth in Mansfield park, they go on a little honeymoon to Brighton, but her sister's there too.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, that makes sense.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Oh, who's that? Barnaby? Why, my sister Amelia travelled in the luggage, for she is so small. This is not a problem, is it, Barnaby? If she attends with us to Brighton. Barnaby.

[Greg Jenner]

Barnaby, come back. So, what do you know? Now, this is where Carriette and I fan ourselves flirtatiously and binge on bon bons. And Sally's going to tell us something we need to know for two uninterrupted minutes and without much further ado. Dr. Sally, can we have the nuance window, please?

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Okay. I think the key thing to remember about marriage in Georgian England was that for the vast majority of people, there was no way out of it. So that's why it was so important to make a prudent choice that was informed both by sentiment and by pragmatism. So one account of a wedding that was sent from a woman to her friend in the 1770s that I found, she described it as the indissolvable knot which nothing but death can sunder, which is actually really foreboding. You know, the real danger of matches that were driven too much by lust, like with Mr. And Mrs. Bennet, is that they fizzled out and then you were stuck for the rest of your life tolerating someone with whom you were just fundamentally incompatible. Marriage also completely changed the balance of power between men and women. So during courtship, women were thought to have the upper hand as they sat in judgment of suitors who tried to woo them with letters and gifts. But once the knot was tied, women were then in a much more subordinate position to the patriarch and the head of the household. And some complained in their diaries that they were cajoled by degrees to lose their liberty during courtship until they had nothing to do but quietly submit. So actually finding a match that ticked all of those boxes. Love, rank, religion, similar disposition, comparable fortune, similar age, someone who could make you happy. The stakes had never been higher.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much. Carrie. Had any final thoughts on that?

[Cariad Lloyd]

Well, I just think it's similar to now, isn't it? Like, you know, although you can get divorced, divorce is a very painful and difficult, expensive, emotionally painful experience. So it's the same thing as it was. That, as ever, like finding someone who not only do you just fancy at the beginning, but you're willing to spend the rest of your life with literally, till death do us part. If you've said that it's not a simple process.

[Greg Jenner]

And listener, if after today's episode you're desperate for more gorgeous Georgians, why not listen to our episode on the experiences of black people in Georgian England or our election special as well? And if you want more chaotic romances of the Romantic poets, check out our episodes on Lord Byron and Mary Shelley. They're both very messy drama queens. You'll find them all on BBC Sounds. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with your friends. Make sure to subscribe to your Dead to Me on BBC Sound, so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to say, really, is a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the amazing Dr. Sally Holloway from Oxford Brookes University. Thank you, Sally.

[Dr. Sally Holloway]

Thank you very much.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, we had the fabulous Carrier Lloyd thank you, Carriad.

[Cariad Lloyd]

Why, Mr. Jenner and Ms. Holloway, it has been more than a pleasure, I must say, and I hope to encounter you again very soon.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we form the perfect union of comedy and history with another whirlwind historical engagement. But for now, I'm off to go and launch my new dating app, the look of Love, where you can only post tiny miniatures of your eyes. Bye.

[Robin Ince]

Hello, I'm Robin Ince.

[Brian Cox]

And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. In this series, we're gonna have a planet off.

[Robin Ince]

We decided it was time to go cosmic, so we are gonna do Jupiter versus Scepter.

[Brian Cox]

Well, it's very well done that, because in the script it does say in square brackets wrestling voice, question mark. And once we touch back down on this planet, we're going to go deep.

[Robin Ince]

Really deep.

[Brian Cox]

Yes. We're journeying to the center of the Earth with guest Phil Wang, Chris Jackson, and Anna Ferreira.

[Robin Ince]

And after all of that intense heat and pressure, we're just gonna kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

[Brian Cox]

And also in this series, we're discussing altruism. We'll find out what it is. Exploring the history of music, recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes.

[Robin Ince]

So if that sounds like your kind of thing, you can listen to the Infinite Monkey Cage first on BBC Sounds.