Hannibal of Carthage: fearsome enemy of ancient Rome

Summary

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You're Dead to Me – Hannibal of Carthage: Fearsome Enemy of Ancient Rome

Podcast: You’re Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Expert Guest: Professor Josephine Quinn (Ancient History, University of Cambridge)
Comedian Guest: Darren Harriot
Release Date: September 26, 2025
Episode Theme:
A highly entertaining and revealing journey through the life of Hannibal Barca, Carthaginian general, whose military genius terrorized ancient Rome. With signature wit and the deep expertise of Professor Josephine Quinn, the episode explores Hannibal’s family, the rise and fall of Carthage, infamous war-elephant marches, memorable battles, and the myths and realities behind one of history’s most legendary adversaries.

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Episode Overview

Greg Jenner, joined by comedian Darren Harriot and ancient historian Professor Josephine Quinn, delves into Hannibal of Carthage's life, the Carthaginian-Roman rivalry, and the legendary crossing of the Alps with war elephants. The episode strikes a brilliant balance between historical depth and comedic charm, making the story of Hannibal accessible, vivid, and thought-provoking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Carthage and the Punic Wars

• Location and Origins of Carthage:

  • Ancient Carthage was located in what is now the suburbs of Tunis, Tunisia. Founded as a Phoenician colony in the 9th century BCE by settlers from Tyre (modern Lebanon).
  • "It becomes the biggest of the Phoenician trading posts in the Mediterranean…about 30,000 people after a century, which would make it an extremely massive city in the western Mediterranean in that era." – Prof. Quinn [05:45]

• Carthaginian Expansion and Power:

  • At its height, Carthage controlled vast territories including North Africa, Sardinia, much of Sicily, and southern Spain.

• Mythical Origins:

  • Stories involve Dido fleeing Tyre, clever land acquisition using an ox-hide, and Virgil’s Roman myth inserting a tragic love affair with Aeneas, foreshadowing eternal enmity with Rome.
  • "When Aeneas leaves to found Rome, Dido dies by suicide by falling on a sword. And she proclaims there will be endless enmity between Carthage and Rome." – Prof. Quinn [09:28]

2. Carthage’s Relationship with Rome

• Early Interactions:

  • Initially, Carthage was the senior power, making treaties to limit Roman influence.
  • "Carthage is much more powerful than Rome initially…so they're allies officially for a long time. But Carthage is definitely the senior ally." – Prof. Quinn [10:51]

• From Allies to Rivals:

  • The balance of power shifted as Rome grew in strength, leading to inevitable conflict.

3. The Barker (Barcid) Family & Hannibal’s Upbringing

• Oligarchic Republic:

  • Carthage ruled by established aristocratic families.

• The Barca Lineage:

  • Hannibal (b. 247 BCE), son of General Hamilcar Barca, who led Carthaginian forces in the First Punic War.
  • Hannibal had two brothers (Hasdrubal, Mago), and three sisters (unnamed in sources).
  • The family, referred to by historians as "the Barcids."

• Growing Up in Spain:

  • After Carthage lost Sicily and Sardinia, Hamilcar led the family and army to expand Carthaginian holdings in southern Spain.
  • "The story goes that he's nine years old when his dad leaves to go to Spain and he begs to join the expedition. And so his dad lets him and he doesn't get back to Carthage until he is 45 years old." – Prof. Quinn [17:00]

• The Famous Oath:

  • Hannibal allegedly swore, as a boy, never to be a friend of Rome [17:02].

4. The Road to War: The Second Punic War

• Triggering the Conflict:

  • Hannibal besieged Saguntum, a Roman ally in Spain. Rome declared war, starting the Second Punic War (218 BCE). [22:08]

• Hannibal’s Daring Invasion of Italy:

  • Rome did not expect an overland invasion.
  • "He actually decides to invade Italy himself, which they are not expecting." – Prof. Quinn [24:24]

• The Elephant March:

  • Hannibal led a multinational army, including 37 elephants, across the Pyrenees and Alps.
  • "Elephants are pretty frightening…as long as the people you're fighting haven't met many elephants before." – Prof. Quinn [25:16]
  • Crossing the Rhône river presented a logistical challenge solved by building earth-covered rafts and leading females first to coax the others.
  • "You just have to put a good Ziploc…so you can get them across." – Darren Harriot (joking about carrying peanuts for the elephants) [26:34]

• Heavy Losses:

  • Hannibal left Spain with 50,000 infantry, 9,000 cavalry, and 37 elephants, but reached Italy with only about 20,000 soldiers, 6,000 cavalry, and an unknown number of elephants. [28:08]

5. Legendary Victories and Hannibal’s Tactical Brilliance

• String of Roman Defeats:

  • Victories at Ticinus, Trebia, Lake Trasimene.
  • At Lake Trasimene, Hannibal foiled a Roman ambush by driving flaming-horned cattle at their lines. [29:19]

• Battle of Cannae (216 BCE):

  • Greatest triumph: Decimated a larger Roman force (70–85,000 Romans vs. 50,000 Carthaginians) via masterful "pincer movement" tactic.
  • "The reason that Hannibal wins is this amazingly brilliant tactic, which is that he has a deliberately weak centre…they’re surrounded by the cavalry." – Prof. Quinn [30:50]
  • "If you go to Sandhurst now…you still learn about the Battle of Cannae. The pincer movement." – Greg Jenner [32:05]

6. Why Didn’t Hannibal Take Rome?

• Aftermath of Cannae:

  • Hannibal was about 400 km from Rome, but chose not to attack directly.
  • Instead, consolidated Italian allies and made wider alliances (including King Philip of Macedon).
  • Roman sources blame omens (hailstorm), but Prof. Quinn suggests practical strategy: “There’s no real profit to Carthage in acquiring Rome or destroying it…I think the strategy behind his whole campaign is to reduce Roman power in Italy…” [35:10].

• Turning Point:

  • When Hannibal finally marched on Rome (211 BCE), the city was full of freshly recruited troops, so he withdrew. “He got there on the parade day, basically.” – Darren Harriot [36:08]
  • Losing Capua marked a decline in his Italian fortunes.

7. Downfall and Exile

• Defeats in Spain, Loss of Brothers:

  • Roman general Scipio (later Africanus) destroyed Carthaginian power in Spain.
  • Hasdrubal (Hannibal's brother) was killed, and his head thrown into Hannibal's camp as a grim message. [40:04]

• Recall to Carthage:

  • With Romans invading North Africa and Carthage’s situation desperate, Hannibal was ordered home.
  • Final defeat came at the Battle of Zama (202 BCE) vs. Scipio Africanus, ending the Second Punic War [42:06].

• Peace Terms:

  • Carthage could not wage war outside Africa, had to surrender all but 10 ships and all elephants, and pay a massive indemnity.

8. Hannibal’s Later Years and Legacy

• Statesman and Exile:
  • Served as a Carthaginian magistrate, reformed finances, later fled because of renewed Roman enmity.
  • Assisted various eastern kings in their wars (notably throwing pots of snakes onto enemy ships!).
    • "He organizes that they throw pots of snakes at attalid ships." – Prof. Quinn [46:10]
  • Ultimately, chose suicide by poison around age 65 rather than surrender to Rome [48:13].

9. Women in the Carthaginian World: The Story of Sophonisba

• Nuance Window [49:25]:
  • Prof. Quinn details the dramatic life of Sophonisba, Carthaginian aristocrat who influenced North African and Roman politics through her marriages and choices.
  • “Sophonisba…played her own important role in the war between Carthage and Rome…in the end proved braver than both of them.” – Prof. Quinn [49:25]
  • Ultimately, to avoid being paraded by Romans, she drank poison provided by her husband Masinissa.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hannibal’s Tough Childhood:

  • "He does all his education, all his growing up there. So in Spain. So he's taught military strategy, he's taught how to fight on horseback. He's also taught Greek." – Prof. Quinn [17:00]

• Comedic Highlight:

  • (Discussing the infamous Carthaginian use of animals in battle)
    • "He ties burning brands to the horns of 2000 cattle and drives them up against the Roman troops." – Prof. Quinn [29:41]
    • "He arms the cats but sets fire to them as well." – Darren Harriot (joking about Hannibal’s unconventional tactics) [33:06]

• On Military Genius:

  • "This is complete…tactical brilliance on Hannibal's part and Rome suffers incredibly heavy losses." – Prof. Quinn [31:48]

• On the Missed Chance:

  • "If he'd crushed Rome in that moment…we might never have had the Roman Empire." – Greg Jenner [36:54]

• On Hannibal’s End:

  • "Reportedly he always carried poison with him in case he was captured by the Romans. He seems to have died by suicide sometime around 182 BCE." – Prof. Quinn [48:13]

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Key Timestamps

• Founding & Myth of Carthage: [05:02–10:15]
• The Barcid Family & Hannibal’s Oath: [12:45–17:34]
• Hannibal’s Early Campaigns in Spain: [19:16–20:57]
• Outbreak of Second Punic War: [22:08–23:33]
• The Elephant March: [24:44–28:12]
• Victories in Italy (Ticinus, Trebia, Trasimene, Cannae): [28:44–32:23]
• Missed Roman Siege & Turning Point: [32:39–37:04]
• Defeat & Return to Africa: [39:07–43:25]
• Aftermath and Exile: [43:48–48:13]
• Sophonisba & Carthaginian Women’s Power: [49:25–51:49]
• Lighthearted Quickfire Quiz & Recap: [53:32–56:00]

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• Hannibal’s career was an extraordinary saga of boldness, risk, and resilience, with moments that could have altered world history.
• Contrary to Roman propaganda, his ultimate goal was strategic containment of Rome, not conquest.
• Women like Sophonisba played crucial, if often tragic, roles in the politics of the time.
• Hannibal’s tactical brilliance and adventurous life continue to fascinate, ensuring his legend lives on—perhaps one day with a Vin Diesel movie!

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Final Thoughts

“You’re Dead to Me” once again brings history to life—rife with elephants, burning cattle, political intrigue, double-crossing brothers, and the dangerous wit that made Rome tremble. By the end, Hannibal remains: both a cautionary tale of lost empires and a timeless icon of audacious ingenuity.

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Transcript

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello, Greg here. Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of youf're Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we're mounting our war elephants and marching back to the ancient Mediterranean to learn all about Carthaginian General Hannibal Barker. And joining our campaign, we have two very special comrades in arms in History Corner, she's Professor of Ancient History at the University of Cambridge and a specialist on Roman, North African and Phoenician history and archaeology. And you might have read her award winning book In Search of the Phoenicians or her best selling award nominated new one, how the World made the a 4000 year history. It's brilliant. It's Professor Josephine Quinn. Welcome Joe.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Thanks for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner he's a comedian, writer and presenter. You'll have seen him on all the TV shows like Live at the Apollo, Love Island, After Sun Roast Battle, Knock the Week, Dancing on Ice, or heard him on the radio on newsjack, Unplugged, Infinite Monkey Cage, Black Label. And of course you'll remember him from our episode on Victorian bodybuilding. It's Darren Harriot. Welcome back, Darren.

[Darren Harriot]

Thank you for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

Darren, last time you demonstrated incredible knowledge in this subject, you were basically an expert on Eugene Sandow.

[Darren Harriot]

I was so excited to come in and talk about Eugene. Yeah. I know so much about bodybuilding and I'd. I think maybe like a year before I'd watched a documentary about him twice. So I came in here. So cocky. I know it all guys very different to today, right?

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna say the history of ancient North Africa.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, yeah. Not really my specialist subject that, but I'm excited. There's gonna be a lot of questions. I'm gonna.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Does the name Hannibal ring a bell?

[Darren Harriot]

It does, yeah. I know a couple of Hannibals. Hannibal's from TV shows, a comedian. It stops there.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Hannibal Buress.

[Darren Harriot]

Hannibal Buress. There we go. Yeah, that's it. That's my knowledge.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Well, he's pretty great, but I don't know if he's ever invaded Rome. I'm not sure. So what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast is called the so what do you know? Where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener might know about today's subject. And when I say Hannibal, you might like Darren, be thinking of TV people. I think of the cigar chomping leader of the A team.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh yeah, I know three.

[Greg Jenner]

More likely you're thinking of the famous fictional serial killer. But today it's less Hannibal the Cannibal and more Hannibal of Carthage. Hannibal has appeared in a ton of historical novels, including ones by Ross Leckie and Ben Cain. Several films as well. The 1959 film Annibale and the 2009 film Hannibal. And apparently if Vin Diesel gets his way, maybe soon we'll be getting a high octane Hannibal trilogy because that's what Vin Diesel wants to make. I cannot wait. I can't wait to watch an elephant power drift around a hairpin corner. That is what we all want to see. But what is the fact behind the fiction? Did Hannibal really have an elephant era? Did a hailstorm change history? Let's find out. Right. Professor Joe, before we meet Hannibal, I think we probably need a quick crash course on the Carthaginians. Actually, you know what, I'm going to turn to Darren and put you on the spot.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, we go.

[Greg Jenner]

Where was Carthage in? I'll give you North Africa.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, North Africa. Okay. Yeah. Oh, how north are we talking?

[Greg Jenner]

Pretty north.

[Darren Harriot]

Okay. On the sea, by the sea. Yeah, that doesn't really help me like Egypt.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. I mean, that's a fairly start.

[Darren Harriot]

Round near.

[Greg Jenner]

West of.

[Darren Harriot]

West of.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

Where's west of Egypt? Is that Morocco? Two west too west.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm going back to. Joe.

[Darren Harriot]

Joe, hold on. Keep doing it with me for a little bit. We could be here for an hour.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Warmer, Colder. It's right in the middle. So ancient Carthage is in modern Tunisia. It's actually now sort of seaside suburb of modern Tunis, but really lovely. In fact, lots of great cafes there. But it was originally founded as a colonial settlement in the 9th century BCE by people we now call Phoenicians. And these are sailors who were based in the ports of the Levant. So modern Lebanon, more or less. So cities like Tyre and Sidon and so on, and they kind of trade and settle throughout the Mediterranean. And in fact, the name of Carthage in the Phoenician language is Cart Hadasht, which literally means new city.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, great.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

And it becomes this really important trading center. It's basically the biggest of the Phoenician trading posts in the Mediterranean. I mean, the archaeologists estimate it has about 30,000 people after about a century, which would make it an extremely massive city in the western Mediterranean in that era. It expands by controlling access to other ports in the western Mediterranean and to the coastline. It really kind of forbids other cities from sailing along any of the coastlines that are interesting to it. And then later on in its history, it actually expands inland as well, becomes a sort of farming state inland into North Africa. So by the 4th century BCE. So 500 years after it's founded, the Carthaginians control territory and trade across a huge swathe of North Africa, but also the islands of Sardinia, most of Sicily, and a lot of southern Spain as well.

[Greg Jenner]

They were kind of bossing it. Right. So that's the official history. That's what the archaeology can tell us and historical sources. There's also a myth about the founding of Carthage, an ancient myth. Any guesses on how it would have gone? How would you tell the myth of the founding of a city?

[Darren Harriot]

The myth of founding the city?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

Normally people just stumble upon things though, don't they? That's kind of how they sort of stumble on it. I want to go with that. Somebody stumbled upon it, just sort of.

[Greg Jenner]

Went, this is nice.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah. Walked around and went, this is nice. And then they found something on the floor that sounds similar to Carthage. And they went, you know what? They saw carpet and they went, you know what? That sounds like Carthage as they stumbled upon it.

[Greg Jenner]

They walked into a furniture showroom.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, they did this is great. It's like dfs. So they went, hold on. Sounds like it.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a lovely, generous, kind guess.

[Darren Harriot]

It's like a child telling of it, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

He's to some extent right.

[Darren Harriot]

Come on.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, there's a. There's a bit more kind of backstory to it. If the only thing, to some extent.

[Greg Jenner]

Is doing some heavy lifting there. Joe.

[Darren Harriot]

Let's be honest.

[Greg Jenner]

Come on.

[Darren Harriot]

I love Joe.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So there's the King of Tyre called Pygmalion.

[Greg Jenner]

I've heard of him.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Right. He unfortunately kills his sister's husband, right. Which annoys his sister, who then flees with a whole bunch of Tyrion senators and so on, and they flee west across the Mediterranean and they stumble upon this place called. Well, and then they decide to call it Carthage. And. And this is supposed to have happened in 814 BCE, which some ancient. I mean, ancient. Ancient historians think was the same date as Rome was founded.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, wow.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

And one of the stories goes. One of the sort of famous stories about this goes that when his sister Dido arrived with her friends from Tyre, that she negotiated with the locals to purchase as much land as could be covered by an ox's hide, which is not very much land. But what she does. Cause she's cunning, is she cuts the hide into an incredibly long strip, like peeling an orange. I don't know if she actually peels the ox.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Can you peel an ox?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

I'm not quite sure how.

[Greg Jenner]

Satsuma's. Yes. Oxen less.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So she basically peels an ox and gets such a long thin strip that she can enclose the whole of the Byrsa Hill with it, which is still the core of Carthage. But there is another story that they find a horse's head buried in the city. And this is a sign. This is a good luck sign. I can't tell you why finding a horse's head is a good luck sign.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Cause I've seen the Godfather.

[Darren Harriot]

I'm just about to say that it's a bad sign.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

If anything, it was a good sign. So that was also another kind of sign that that was the right place for the city. And then the other big myth that a lot of people have heard of about Carthage is the story told in Virgil's Aeneid, which is actually a very late version of the story where he takes this myth about this amazing woman who flees as a refugee and founds the city and adds this Trojan prince, Aeneas, and has her fall in love with him. So he turns up, she falls in love. But then he leaves to found Rome. And when Aeneas leaves to found Rome, Dido dies by suicide by falling on a sword. And she proclaims there will be endless enmity between Carthage and Rome.

[Greg Jenner]

Ooh. Foreshadowing for our episode. Thank you. Thank you for that. That's a lovely summary. So you're very charming with your stumbling upon.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, not too bad actually.

[Greg Jenner]

Bad?

[Darren Harriot]

I missed out on the horse. I said dfs. I was getting there.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so when Roman Carthage eventually did meet, do you think it's a sort of a romantic meet cute between two Mediterranean powers? Or do you think they're.

[Darren Harriot]

No, I don't. No, it doesn't sound like it would be.

[Greg Jenner]

So you think Dido's prophecy is true? They immediately become enemies.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna. Yeah. Did I. No.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So.

[Darren Harriot]

Really.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So the thing is, one important thing is that Carthage is much more powerful than Rome initially.

[Darren Harriot]

That's what. That's what I thought it was powerful. It would have just stumbled up in my head, just went all over Rome and just took over or tried to.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

I think it. It does try to. So there. It keeps making treaties. So they're allies officially for a long time. But Carthage is definitely the senior ally. So they make treaties in the sixth century, in the fifth century, in the fourth century. And they're all about what Rome isn't allowed to do basically. But then Rome actually calls on Carthage to help. When the general Pyr of the Pyrrhic victory fame when he comes over and invades Italy in 275 BCE the Romans actually get the Carthaginians to help him defeat them. So they actually have a relatively friendly relationship up until then.

[Greg Jenner]

It's quite surprising, right, because we're used to hearing about the Romans being the absolute boss empire. But they're basically like kind of the upstarts asking for collabs.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, yeah, I was just about to say that it does sound a bit odd because I would have thought exactly that. We just hear how dominant Ro was in their army and I do like the idea that they. They really needed help. They were. They were really asking for help.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you ask for help in the ancient world? You just send a dove saying help.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Or you send an envoy.

[Greg Jenner]

An envoy. Okay.

[Darren Harriot]

Send an envoy. And he just help, help. Just help us.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Usually he then gets captured by other people on the way and it all goes wrong and.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. All right, let's meet Hannibal because he's the sort of person we're talking about today. He is the most famous of all the Carthaginians, you know, the Carthaginian empire is vast. You said 500 years already. But we're going to talk about Hannibal today. So when was he born? What was his family background? Is he parsh? Is he, you know, is he kind of working class, works his way up?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Okay, so Carthage is an oligarchic republic. So it's a bit like Rome. It's got a public assembly but it's mostly, the people in charge are mostly from fairly ancient aristocratic families. And that's the background that Hannibal's background. So he's born in 247 BCE. He's the son of a general called Hamilcar Barca. And this general fought in the first Punic war against Rome. He has two brothers, we know that they're called Hasdrubal and Mago. He has three sisters. Nobody bothers to tell us what they're called unfortunately.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, you know.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

And what's. So what's been going on when Hannibal is born is this first war between Carthage and Rome. And basically the relationship between the two cities gets increasingly strained due to various central Mediterranean politics. And war breaks out in 264. And Hamilcar, who's Hannibal's father, he's sent to Sicily to prosecute this war in 247. So the same year that Hannibal is born. And it's his leadership that really sustains Carthaginian resistance to Rome for until 241 when Rome defeats Carthage at the battle of the Egady Islands off western Sicily. And that's the end of the first Punic war. It's the first really big defeat ever.

[Greg Jenner]

Basically they call it the Punic War. When I try typing it in my script, autocorrect, turn it to pubic war. So let's just clarify. Pun. I see. Okay.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

And what Punic mean? It's the Latin word for Phoenician basically because the Romans didn't pronounce f for a long time. They pronounced it puh. They didn't have aspiration like that. Ah, so. So they call Phoenicians basically Phoenicians. So that's where Punic comes from. Okay, so in the West, Western Phoenicians, the ones who settled in the west, often called Punic.

[Greg Jenner]

So this is the first Punic war. The fact it's the first one tells us more are coming.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Exactly, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so what's the kind of upshot of this first? Well actually I'll ask you Darren, what do you think is the upshot of this first war, Carthage has been defeated.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah, Rome is really happy. They're over the moon. They're like look at us if wouldn't they. I mean it seems like the Carthaginian people was a lot about trade. Trade was their big thing. So if Rome wouldn't beat them in the wall, wouldn't there be some sort of trade? Wouldn't Rome want more or take. Take more I guess if you want in a war and then that changes the power.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Absolutely. So what, what Rome gets basically as its reward for winning is Sicily and then Sardinia too. They kind of take Sardinia as a dessert.

[Darren Harriot]

Not bad. Yeah, not bad.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

And so what that is is not only a load of trading ports but it's also really good agricultural. Yeah, that's extremely good for Roman access to grain. Basically major ancient concerns.

[Greg Jenner]

So the to the dad, Hamilcar Barker, It's a good name. He's a sort of great Carthaginian general. He is, you know, a man of the Western Phoenician Empire. He's fought the Romans, hasn't quite gone to plan but he's sort of put his shift in. So he's been fighting in Sicily. Where do you think his son grows up?

[Darren Harriot]

Did his son grow up in Sicily?

[Greg Jenner]

I mean that's a sensible guess.

[Darren Harriot]

Well you wouldn't take your son with you, would you?

[Greg Jenner]

No, he grows up in Spain.

[Darren Harriot]

What was that just to protect him? Was that just to protect his family? Had a grow up in Spain?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

No, because once Rome has taken Sicily and Sardinia, basically what Carthage wants to do is consolidate its holdings in southern Spain which it's had some level of sort of interest in before that. But it's really the only place left that it can really expand now without kind of hitting the Romans again. So Hamilcar who's really, I mean his reputation is really enhanced by what happened in the first Punic War. Even though they lost, he was, you know, the big, the big Carthaginian star. So he takes a force to Spain in 237and once he, he gets there he basically acts a bit like an independent prince but it's all with the permission of the Carthaginian Senate. And the reason that Hannibal goes with him, I mean the story goes that he's nine years old when his dad leaves to go to Spain and he begs to join the expedition. And so his dad lets him and he doesn't get back to Carthage until he is 45 years old.

[Greg Jenner]

Whoa.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Nine. Yeah. And so in Carthage he does it all his education, all his growing up there. So in Spain. So he's taught military strategy, he's taught how to fight on horseback. He's also taught Greek. He claimed later, very late in life he claimed that his father made him swear an oath never to be a friend to Rome when he was a little child. So we don't know if that's true or not. But that's kind of his own kind of surprise. That's a story he wants people to know about him.

[Greg Jenner]

So from the age of nine, he's sort of training to be a warrior.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, training to be a warrior. And in his story, at least against Rome. And then his, his dad dies in battle in 229, 22, 98. Hannibal's about 18 at this point and obviously he's too young to take command. So the command of the Carthaginian armies in Spain goes to his brother in law who's called Hasdrubal. The fair.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, we've got Hamilcar, Hasdrubal, Hannibal and another has. I mean, Hasdrubal. Yeah, Hamilcar, Hasdable, Hannibal and Hasdrubal. Darren, are you keeping up with the Carpassians?

[Darren Harriot]

I love that. Yes, I am. I'm on series three.

[Greg Jenner]

And historians, we call this, we call this family the Barker family, but we refer to them as the bar kids, which is kind of cool. How do you think the brothers get on? How do you think Hannibal's got brothers? He's got sisters. How do you reckon?

[Darren Harriot]

I'm gonna. There was probably. They probably didn't like each other. There's probably a power struggle of some sorts. Older taking over. He's old enough to fight. He's been in Spain. Did they all grow up in Spain? Did they.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

A lot of the family do seem to kind of grow up in Spain together. And they actually, they kind of get on okay. And Hasdrubal seems to be a pretty good replacement for Hamilcar. But the big thing he does is that he signs a treaty with Rome. I know, I know. No, but this is. But you know, it's a treaty that's pretty favorable to Carthage because what, the Romans agree not to take an army south of the Ebro river and the Carthaginians agree not to go north of the Ebro River. But the Ebro river's pretty far north in Spain. It's closer to the French border now than to Madrid. It's not a bad treaty. Hasdrubal also found the city of New Carthage on the southern coast.

[Greg Jenner]

And that's actually, we've already Got a news.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

It's like a new new city. And we don't know very much about what Hannibal's doing in this period, but he's definitely leading some of the military campaigns against some of the local populations into their territory. The only other thing we really kind of hear about him in this period is that he seems to marry an Iberian woman, maybe an Iberian princess, but we don't know much about that. We don't know whether they had children or anything like that.

[Greg Jenner]

Do we know her name?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Maybe Emil. Kay, maybe. All of this is written down much later so the details may not be exactly on point.

[Greg Jenner]

When you said mlk, I thought you said mlk. Yeah, same Martin Luther King is like wow.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, that would be the turn off the.

[Greg Jenner]

No. Okay, so Hannibal has married Imelkay. Maybe he's living in new New Carthage in Spain. He eventually manages to replace his brother in law as the supreme commander in Iberia. How do you think he manages it?

[Darren Harriot]

How do you think he manages to replace him?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

As in what happened to him? Yeah, he died. Did he kill him?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

He didn't kill him, no.

[Darren Harriot]

Did he get.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

No. Poor old Hasdrubal gets assassinated by one of their allies apparently. But 222, 22, 21 sounds like.

[Darren Harriot]

Sounds like a Roman to me.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Who knows what may be going on behind the scenes. But what happens is that the Carthaginian troops then choose Hannibal as their new leader. And by now he's 26. That's a kind of respectable age. And he's unanimously confirmed by the Carthaginian people and Senate back at home as well. Even though he hasn't been home at this point for almost 20 years.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh wow.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

And he starts campaigning straight away. So after a year he's moved further into Iberia than either Hamilcar or Hasdrubal after him. And he's, you know, we hear he treats his troops very well. He's also a natural risk taker and he's a great soldier.

[Greg Jenner]

But he's 26 now. Come on Darren, would you follow a 26 year old into battle? No, I remember being 26. I was an idiot.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah. No, yeah, I was an idiot. Yeah. Same year old. I would have followed literally anybody. But to battle? No to the shops, yes to the pub. Yeah, yeah, to the pub, yeah. Beer garden. Yeah. But I guess he was ready, wasn't he? He was kind of prepped. He saw this as his future. When he was the leader he probably gave a really great speech and you know, brother in law.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Ah, come On.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I mean, he'd been preparing since he was nine.

[Darren Harriot]

I mean, that's all he's kind of known, right? Was battle war, his dad, his family. So, yeah, I'm guessing he was ready for it.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah, fair enough. Okay, you convinced me. Hannibal was now spending his twenties like many lads do, annoying the Spanish locals, rampaging around with his buddies, and then he falls out with Rome. How has he fallen? I mean, look, come on, we know what's happening next, but like, what's the sort of story here?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Okay, so there's a town called Saguntum on the east coast of Spain. It's now a suburb of Valencia and it's the last holdout against Hannibal and the Carthaginians south of the Ebro River. And so the Saguntines appeal to Rome for support against Hannibal and Rome officially warns Hannibal to leave Saguntum alone even though it's south of the Ebro. And so it's really in Hannibal's sphere. And so he calls their bluff and he besieges the city anyway. And you know, we hear he kind of directly engages with the fighting. He only leaves the battlefield when he takes a wound to the sternum and he has to go off and deal with another uprising at that point.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so he sort of poked the ball a little bit because you've kind of. The Romans are like, don't. And he's like, I'm gonna.

[Darren Harriot]

I mean, it was in his territory.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So it was. I mean the Romans case is that Saguntum is an ally of theirs and you're not supposed to attack Rome's allies even if they're in your territory. Carthage's case is it wasn't an ally when they made the treaty. So it's a question of whether you can kind of post date the contract.

[Greg Jenner]

Is out of date.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

It says we can get you, we can attack you now.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And I read Greek, so I've read this and it says here there's a.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Lot of discussion of this at the time.

[Greg Jenner]

We now get the Second Punic War. Not the Pubic War, Second Punic War in 218 BCE. I mean we get a proper famous Roman. Now we're not yet into Julius Caesar territory, but we get a really famous Roman, Scipio. Can you tell us about him?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yes. Yeah. So Rome sends an embassy to Carthage in 218 to declare war. And their initial plan is to send a consul called Publius Cornelius Scipio, and he's actually the father of the famous Scipio to fight Hannibal In Spain. And their idea is they're going to send one consul to Spain and another consul to Africa. So two consuls take the Roman army in two directions and get rid of the whole threat in both directions. But then what happens is that Hannibal again, basically decides to kind of call their bluff, and he actually decides to invade Italy himself, which they are not expecting.

[Darren Harriot]

You know what? I'm really liking this Hannibal. I didn't expect that at all. This is great. He doesn't care, does he?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So he basically has to take his troops and elephants overland from Spain to Italy because Rome essentially controls the sea at this point. They have far more ships. I see.

[Greg Jenner]

So I'm gonna stop you there. Why elephants?

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, yeah, I missed that. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm fine with taking your troops. I'm fine with taking your horses. Why is he bringing elephants?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Well, elephants are quite useful in ancient battles. As long as the people you're fighting haven't met many elephants before. I mean, if they're used to them, then they know how to scare them and how. They don't really work. But the first few. And Rome hasn't often. Pyrrhus brought a few elephants, but they haven't had much to do with elephants. So the elephants are pretty frightening.

[Darren Harriot]

Could you imagine going into battle? You've never seen an elephant.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

You're like, what is that? That's a very good. Yeah, I never thought of that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

I guess I don't have Discovery channel. I can't check these things out. That would terrify me if I read for battle. And there's an elephant there.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Also, there are all these crazy animals that you hear about, like kind of sea beasts and land beasts and so on. And then to find out that one really exists, it also suggests that all the others might really exist.

[Greg Jenner]

As he's got elephants, he might have a griffin. Okay, Darren, obvious question. How would you convince a bunch of angry elephants to cross some mountains? Because he's. He's crossing from Spain to Italy. So he's going over the Alps. He's going over the Pyrenees. Pyrenees and then the Alps.

[Darren Harriot]

That's a very good. That's a very good point. How would you. I mean, maybe, like, do peanuts work? I've seen peanuts work quite a bit. Maybe a trail of peanuts. Maybe some cashews going off a mountain.

[Greg Jenner]

14,000 tons along hundreds of miles of mountain pathway. It's not a bad idea. Bribery. Right, Bribery. You've gone carrot, not stick. Okay.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

The elephants would have to carry the peanuts, wouldn't they? And then they'd be able to just eat them with their trunk.

[Darren Harriot]

That's a very good point. You just have to put a good Ziploc on just to make sure they actually make it so you can get them across.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, Jo, how do you convince elephants to go. To go off route, off mountain pistes.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Okay, so the real problem with the elephants isn't actually the mountains. The elephants can kind of manage the mountains. It's the river. It's when he has to cross the Rhone in between the Pyrenees and the Alps. And elephants really don't like crossing water. So what he has to do is construct a kind of bridge of rafts and then cover it in earth. So the elephants think that it's land, but then they lead the female elephants on first, so the other elephants will just follow. So that's, that's also.

[Darren Harriot]

That's also like a night out. That is.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

They do, but we don't know. He leaves Siberia with 37 elephants and we honestly don't know how many arrive in Italy.

[Greg Jenner]

He leaves with 37 and he shows up with, we don't know, two elephants.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Some elephants.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so he leaves Iberia with 50,000 souls. Soldiers. Yeah, on foot, 9,000 cavalry, 37 elephants. How many soldiers do you think he arrives with, Darren?

[Darren Harriot]

Did you say 50,000?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So 50,000 foot troops, 9,000 cavalry.

[Darren Harriot]

How, how long do we think days wise it take to get there? How long do you think it would have took him?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

It took him 15 days just across the Alps. So it's going to be, I mean, it's several months. So he, he starts marching in late or early summer, say May, June of 218, and he actually gets there in October.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. 20,000.

[Greg Jenner]

That's bang on. That's amazing. As far as we can tell, Joe, he rise 20,000 soldiers to left and about 6,000 cavalry. He's lost more than half his army.

[Darren Harriot]

How do you keep the spirit going? Like just ready, still ready to fight. When you've lost that many, I guess.

[Greg Jenner]

You'Re eating the elephants, maybe. Elephant barbecue. Lads.

[Darren Harriot]

Anyone?

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so he's shown up with half his army devastated already just by that long, long march. And then what was there a Roman army waiting for him to ambush him?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, there is, but it doesn't do them much good because he has this series of incredible victories in his first months in Italy. He wins the Battle of Ticinus in November, right after he's crossed the Alps. He wins the Battle of Trebia in December. Then the Following June, he wins this enormous battle at Lake Trasimeni. This is all kind of northern central Italy. And then he carries on south. And in the autumn of 2017 there's.

[Greg Jenner]

A 2017 BC right, yeah, okay, sorry, sorry, dojo.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

In the autumn of 217, Rome has a temporary dictator because it's a state of emergency. Quintus Fabius Max Maximus and he tries to block a passer Napulia and ambush the Carthaginian army. But what Hannibal does is that he ties burning brands to the horns of 2000 cattle and drives them up against the Roman troops. So that gets rid of the Roman.

[Greg Jenner]

Troops, sets fire to live cows and charges them at the Romans.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

He's got a lot of time on his hand, hasn't he?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

He's doing very well. He also gains loads of allies in Italy. He basically convinces a lot of Ital to desert the Romans who are the big imperial forces.

[Darren Harriot]

What's at this point winning all these battles.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

He's very popular. People think that he's going to, you know, be the certainly the new power in Italy. And so eventually Rome appoints two new consuls who have very different ideas about how one is kind of a hawk, one's a dove basically. And the problem is that because they're both fighting in the same battle and they have to command the army on alternate days.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Darren Harriot]

I love that. Right. Utech Mondays on their Tuesday. What did you do on Tuesday? Oh, come on.

[Greg Jenner]

Doing a job. Share with someone who like fundamentally disagrees with you on everything. The opposite nightmare. So those consoles are Gaius Terentius Varro, Lucius Aemilius Paullus and they just don't see eye to eye.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

They don't see eye to eye at all. And then comes the battle of Cannae and this is the biggest defeat of all for the Romans. Unsurprisingly, they've got more troops. So Rome's got somewhere between 70 and 85,000 troops. There are 50,000 Carthaginians and allies at this point. But the reason that Hannibal wins is this amazingly brilliant tactic, which is that he has a deliberately weak centre in his army to attract the Romans to attack him in the centre. And then he has cavalry of very strong cavalry on both wings with one of his nephews who's called Hanno and another guy called Hasdrubal on the other side. And so what happens is that the Romans kind of surge into the center where they see the weakness and then they're surrounded by the cavalry. And this is complete A bit of tactical brilliance on Hannibal's part. And Rome suffers incredibly heavy losses, including one of the consuls, the one who didn't think they should go into battle.

[Greg Jenner]

Monday and Wednesday, dead. So this is the Battle of Cannae. It's one of the greatest battles in history. It's taught to modern military commanders, like, if you go to Sandhurst now to go and study, you know, you still learn about the Battle of Cannae. The pincer movement.

[Darren Harriot]

Is that what it is? That's what it's called. Ah.

[Greg Jenner]

So you basically, you invite people in, so come, come get me. My sort of, oh, no, what am I gonna do? And then suddenly, yeah, swoop around with the fast cavalry.

[Darren Harriot]

So I wonder how long it took to just clear them out once they get in. Because they would have. They would have just been so primed and ready. I bet it didn't take very long to just empty them all out.

[Greg Jenner]

It'd be horrific, wouldn't it be? Absolutely. We're talking tens of thousands of people, people just slaughtered. It's an absolutely brutal, brutal battle, but it's a huge win. And so Hannibal has crushed the Romans again. He has killed one of the consuls. So geographically, where is he now, Hannibal, after this big win at Cannae.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

After Cannae, he's in the south of Italy.

[Greg Jenner]

So how close is he to Rome?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

About 400 kilometres.

[Greg Jenner]

Darren, would you. Would you march on Rome?

[Darren Harriot]

I would. So go into Rome, yeah. I think he went into Rome and just tried to take over and just tried to kill whoever he could kill and then just set fire to set fire to a bunch of cats with like little daggers and they just all ran in there, whatever weird animal thing. He's doing this.

[Greg Jenner]

He arms the cats but sets fire to them as well.

[Darren Harriot]

He arms the cats and sets fires to them? Yeah. He's not taking any chances in Rome.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazingly, later on, the Romans figured out one of the ways to fight elephants is you set fire to pigs and you get the pigs to charge towards the elephants and that terrifies the elephants. So mobile bacon, I guess smell as well. Yeah, yeah, but. So cat's on fire. Joe, does he march on Rome? Because Darren would.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

No, no, he doesn't. He doesn't, I'm afraid. He's really sensible. I mean, what he does is he's.

[Darren Harriot]

Sensible thing you said about him. I'm actually in shock that he didn't do that.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So what he actually does is he uses this massive victory to create, consolidate his support in Italy. So he wins over Capua and Tarentum. Which two of the really big cities in southern Italy. He also wins over Syracuse in Sicily. And he makes another important ally further east, which is that he makes a treaty with King Philip of Macedon. So he's one of the most powerful rulers in the Mediterranean at that point. So they sign a treaty in 215. And I mean, Hannibal is very dangerous at this point for the Romans, but eventually. So he does eventually march on rome, but it's five years later in 211. And the reason he does it is that the Romans have besieged Capua, which is to the south of Rome, and it's really Carthage's key ally in Italy. And so Hannibal marches right up to the gates of Rome, but he doesn't attack.

[Darren Harriot]

He doesn't attack. Is it just to show I can do this, like I can come here anytime I want?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Well, the later Roman sources kind of make it out to all be a kind of terrible mistake, that there's a hail storm that he takes as an unfavorable omen. And he also hears that Rome is diverting troops to Spain at this point, so he thinks they're not taking him seriously and he basically chickens out. But I mean, that's quite important to Romans to make him seem like a really superstitious kind of scared person.

[Greg Jenner]

So this is a later Roman historian called Livy.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Exactly. This is Livy's version of the story. But actually, I think a much more likely way of telling the story is that he never intended to actually conquer Rome. It's much too big a job. And also, there's no real profit to Carthage in acquiring Rome or destroying it. I think the strategy behind his whole campaign is to reduce Roman power in Italy and then in the Mediterranean more generally, basically to put Rome back in its box. And the immediate goal of the march on Rome is to lift the siege of Capua. He thinks that they'll have to lift the siege of Capua in order to come back and save Rome or at least split their troops. I mean, what's the really bad piece of luck for Hannibal is that on the very day that he arrives at Rome, unbeknownst to him, the Romans have actually called a muster of soldiers in the city because they're recruiting some new legions. So actually Rome is. Is full of soldiers.

[Darren Harriot]

He got there on the parade day, basically.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, everyone's there. So the whole plan basically falls through and they don't lift the siege of Capwell, not in time. And so he marches back south to.

[Greg Jenner]

Again, that's like trying to do like a Bank job when it's like the police training day and all the police are there, that's what the luck. Okay, so the sources say hailstorms, but you think strategically he's just like, this is not. This is not.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

It doesn't make sense.

[Darren Harriot]

Is that quite a big kick to his ego? Because he's had a lot of wins and this, this is going to be talked about.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Well, I mean, what happens is so they do then lose Capua to Rome. And maybe it is because this is. Something went really badly wrong at this point.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, this, this is a hinge point in history. Right. Because if he'd crushed Rome in that moment.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

We might never have had the Roman Empire.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Or even if he'd just kept Capua, maybe Rome could have been put back in its box and it would have much more multipolar Mediterranean.

[Greg Jenner]

It's Blockbuster. Had the chance to buy Netflix and they didn't. And then Netflix became way bigger. This is it. He is. He's. Yeah, he's the ancient Blockbuster. Sorry, I used to work for Blockbuster. I like that job. Anyway, moving on.

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[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so the hailstorm is probably a Later sort of Roman literary, sort of legend or whatever, but he doesn't take Rome and then, and then it doesn't kind of work out. So he gets sort of trapped down in Bruttium.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's there for four years.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Four years, exactly. Yeah. What goes on in this period is that Scipio. Scipio the son.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, the good one.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah. He gets elected commander in Spain and he captures. So he start. They start. The Romans start to make real progress in Spain. So Scipio captures New Carthage in 209 ancient Gardes, which is modern Cadiz, surrenders to the Romans after Mago leaves to join Hannibal in 206. So basically the Barcids lose control of Iberia at this point and. And there are some reinforcements that come from Iberia to Hannibal. But when the leader of the reinforcements is killed in battle on the way. And this is. I mean, this is actually Hannibal, Hannibal's brother.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh no.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah. And Hannibal learns of his brother's death when his severed head is thrown into Hannibal's camp.

[Darren Harriot]

Can I just say, I was waiting for a severed head to be given to somebody. Wow. That one moment at the gates and it all just changes.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I mean, history is pure chaos, isn't it? You never know.

[Darren Harriot]

They throw his head, right. He's spiraling, he's gotta go crazy now.

[Greg Jenner]

So Hasdrubal's severed head lands in his camp and Hannibal knows that the cavalry's not coming because the cavalry is dead.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so at this point what, Hannibal just sort of has to go. All right, peace treaty.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

No, what happens now is that Scipio, having done quite a bit of damage to the Carthaginians in Spain, he now takes the war to North Africa. So the Romans actually invade North Africa and Scipio sets fire to a Carthaginian camp near Utica, which is west of Carthage in tunisia. We win 203 now. And. And so he sets fire to a Carthaginian camp. He also sets fire to a neighbouring camp of their local Numidian allies. These are the local kings. And this really devastates the Carthaginian forces in North Africa and it also destabilises their local alliances because they were kind of collateral damage. And Scipio then defeats the Carthaginians in battle. A Carthaginian force led by another Hasdrubal, I'm afraid, has Francisco. Yeah. And at that point the Carthaginians sue for peace and they try and blame everything on the Barclays kids.

[Darren Harriot]

Of course they do.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So Scipio orders them to withdraw From Gaul, Spain and Italy, they have to give up their Navy, apart from 20 ships, and they have to pay a huge fine.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Now this, this. Then it gets a bit tricky. So they provisionally accept this treaty, but it hasn't been formally signed off. And at that point, the Council of Carthaginian Elders finally summon Hannibal home to Africa.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's been away for 15 years.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Oh, much longer, really? Yeah, he's been away for more than 35 years.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, from. From home, yeah. But he's been. He left with his elephants in 218. Was he?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yes, yes. So he's been. He's been away from Spain first. He's been in Italy. Right.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's been at war in Italy for 15 years and then suddenly he gets a letter saying, get home.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah, Come home. Yeah. And then what happens is that Carthage breaks this certainly what Rome think is a truce by looting Roman supply vessels. Some Roman envoys get attacked by a mob at Carthage. And the Council of elders encourages Hannibal to go after Scipio. And Hannibal, first of all, he tries to kind of negotiate a slightly milder treaty with Scipio, but Scipio refuses. And then you have the Battle of Zama. And this is the final big Roman victory in Africa. Yeah. So the reason that Scipio is known as Scipio Africanus is because he wins the battle of Zama and defeats Carthage in Africa. Both sides suffer heavy losses and, you know, Livy praises Hannibal for his command. But in the end, the Carthaginians are defeated and there is a final peace treaty which means that Carthage now can't fight wars outside Africa. They have to pay 10,000 silver talents, find a massive amount of money. They have to hand over all their elephants and they have to reduce their fleet to 10 Ships. The rest of the fleet is burned.

[Greg Jenner]

10 Ships is handing over your elephants. Like in a movie where a sort of maverick cop have to turn shield and gun.

[Darren Harriot]

There you go, chief.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, sorry, Sarge, but I'm still gonna pursue the case. So only 10 ships left. They can't leave North Africa. This mighty empire that we met at the beginning of the episode. Yeah, it's all gone wrong under Hannibal. He's bungled it.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

That's one way of looking at it. I mean, he does disappear from the records for a few years after that. But then he comes back. He comes back. So he comes back to politics in Carthage, you know, where he hasn't been since he's a child. And so he. Yeah, he becomes one of the two Shofferts. Who are the two kind of senior magistrates at Carthage, 196 BCE. And apparently he's good. He reorganizes state finances to pay off the war debt. He changes the constitution to reduce the power of traditional ruling families. But the next year, he gets into trouble with Rome. So the Romans by now have moved on. They're fighting the king of Syria, the Seleucid King, Antiochus iii. And. And they hear that Hannibal is in contact with Antiochus, even though. Yeah. Even though Scipio himself defends Hannibal in the Roman Senate, they believe that he's plotting behind their back with Antiochus.

[Greg Jenner]

So Scipio, the former enemy who defeated him at Zama, says, no, no, no, Hannibal's a good bloke. He wouldn't do this. He's definitely keeping by the peace treaty.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Do we trust that Darren?

[Darren Harriot]

No. No. Wow. Oh, and he was burning inside him, I bet. Just so angry. All those winds and that one time, everything just goes downhill.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean. So, Joe, in terms of what we know, was Hannibal colluding with Antiochus of Syria?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Okay. We don't know. But when Rome asks Carthage to indict him, he's outlawed and he does flee to Antiochus court at Ephesus. So you're right. And he does then play kind of a minor role in Antiochus war with Rome. But then the Romans defeat the Seleucids, and again they demand that they give up Hannibal. And he escapes again, he goes further east and he ends up in the kingdom of Bithynia on the Black Sea.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's also got, famously, an amazing military or a naval tactic.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah. So he helps the Bithynians in their war against the Attalid Roman allies in Anatolia. He organizes that they throw pots of snakes at attalid ships.

[Darren Harriot]

I love it. And more animals throw pots at snakes.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah. I don't think they're burning snakes. I think they're just snakes.

[Darren Harriot]

Just throw pots of sn. It's great.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I mean, I've seen snakes on a plane. I would definitely watch Snakes on a Ship.

[Darren Harriot]

Snakes on a ship. Yeah. Snakes in pots. Somebody get rid of these snakes off this ship.

[Greg Jenner]

Does anyone have Samuel L. Jackson's agent on the phone? Because I've got a plot for him.

[Darren Harriot]

I mean, he was. He's a genius, wasn't he? He was definitely a good. A real good thinker.

[Greg Jenner]

When you said Anatolia, that's what, West Turkey.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, Turkey.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So he's really got around the place. Right. We started in North Africa, then Spain, then he sort of crossed into Italy.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Back To North Africa, then did a.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Run into Syria, then Turkey and then ends up on the Black Sea.

[Greg Jenner]

God, he must have some serious air miles.

[Darren Harriot]

I know, right? Got lounge pass and everything. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Darren, do you know what happens to Hannibal in the end?

[Darren Harriot]

No, no, he. I mean he defeats the Romans.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, you're clinging to that story, are you?

[Darren Harriot]

It just sounds great. It's either. No, I don't know what happens to him. Okay. How does he die? I don't think it's gonna be in battle.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Darren Harriot]

I think I just one of those like stupid deaths that happens back then or something. That's what I honestly, I really think it. Was it an animal? Did an elephant accidentally fall on him?

[Greg Jenner]

There is a famous king who was crushed by his own elephant right there. I think he was fighting against elephants. He ran underneath it, stabbed it with a spear from underneath and the elephant just sat on him. How did you do that? I can't remember the name of the king, but that is a famous death. Joe, that is not what happened.

[Darren Harriot]

What happened to my new hero?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

So, okay, the Romans beat the Bithynians. Bit of a broken record at this point. And the peace treaty stipulates they have to give up Hannibal. And at this point he's got. He's run out of road at this point. And reportedly he always carried poison with him in case he was captured by the Romans. So he, he seems to have died by suicide sometime around 182bce.

[Greg Jenner]

So Joe, how old was Hannibal when he died?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

About 65.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh that's, that's way above the average back then. How is it? All right, you know what, Hannibal's alright.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

65, just always has a bit of poison in his pocket just in case.

[Greg Jenner]

He'S got a sort of cyanide capsule in there. It's quite the life, Darren.

[Darren Harriot]

Well, quite the life, yeah. He's one, one heck of a traveler. I just, I really like the fact that he just, he just wouldn't give up. He just always had it in his heart that he just didn't. He just didn't like them. Just wanted to get them. And he nearly did.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, poor girl.

[Greg Jenner]

Are you ready for the Vin Diesel movie?

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah. I wonder what Kara's going to be going around all these places in.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow. Hannibal of Carthage. Quite the career. The nuance window. Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is where Darren and I sit silently in the command tent to strategize for two minutes minutes while Professor Joe takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Ancient North Africa. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away Professor Quin.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Thank you. Okay, so after all these men and all their battles, I want to talk about a Carthaginian woman who played her own important role in the war between Carthage and Rome by marrying not one but two Numidian kings. And in the end proved braver than both of them. So Sophonisba was an aristocratic Carthaginian woman, Saffambal. In her own language we hear that she was beautiful, learned, musical and she was the daughter of the General Hasdrubal Disco who we've seen being defeated by the Romans in 203. And what we're told is that in 206 she had been engaged to the local Numidian king Masinissa and he controlled the inland region beyond Carthaginian territory. So in lot of what's now Tunisia. The Carthaginian Senate though ordered her to marry his rival Syphax instead. And Syphax ruled most of what's now Algeria from Khearthm on Constantine. Syphax was considered a more important strategic ally to Carthage than Masinissa. And Sophonisba accepted this decision. But Masinissa wasn't happy. And this is supposedly what persuaded him to throw his support and his crack cavalry behind Rome instead of Carthage. And this was absolutely crucial for Rome's eventual victory at Zarm. Meanwhile Sothonisba have persuaded her new husband Syphax to stick with Carthage in the final stages of the war. But in the end after Scipio defeated hasdrubal Gisco in 203 with Masinissa's help, Masinissa himself wins a decisive victory over Syphax with Roman help and he takes the other king prisoner and he comes to Caerta to take possession of his palace and his wife. And so Sophonisburg and Masinissa finally marry. But when Scipio, when the Roman general finds out that Sophonisba have played a decisive role in Syphax's calculations against Rome, he demands that Masinissa turn her over to him as a prisoner. And that's not going to happen. So instead Masinissa offers his new bride a cup of poison which she courageously drinks and then he takes Scipio her court. I have to say he can't have been too upset though because he then remains an ally of Rome for 50 years. So that's mem for you.

[Greg Jenner]

What a story. Thank you Jo. I mean Sophonisba, she really, I mean she played quite dangerous game there and.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, I mean she was in all the rooms where it happened.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. Extraordinary. I mean, final thoughts on that, Darren. It's not just Hannibal.

[Darren Harriot]

No. I mean, yeah, she definitely played a dangerous game. The idea of giving her poison and then just bringing her body in and being like, well, okay, just message me later, we'll keep talking. There's her body for you. Wow. It's crazy. I guess. I guess it's just. Everybody just wants to survive, don't they? They just do whatever they can, even if it is brutal. Did you say, did she know it was poison or did he.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, she knew.

[Darren Harriot]

She knew. She knew.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah. Yeah. No, she was absolutely in on it.

[Darren Harriot]

Yeah.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

She didn't want to be a prisoner of Rome any more than he did.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Darren Harriot]

She was like, are you gonna take it? I said, no, no, no, no. Afterwards, you first.

[Greg Jenner]

And then I've just cleaned my teeth. So what do you know? Now this is our quickfire quiz for Darren to see how much he has learned today. Darren, I think you've enjoyed it.

[Darren Harriot]

I've had a great time, honestly. Every time something fun, really fun, whether it was war or just Hannibal's general attitude, I really enjoyed. I stopped writing because I was just too invested in the story battle. I was just so invested in.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Darren Harriot]

And him being a lover of animals as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Of course we say lover of animals. I mean, he killed a lot, a lot of animals.

[Darren Harriot]

Could you imagine the ones he practiced on? Just to see. Just to see what worked. You don't immediately light the light cows on fire. You have to practice first. Still a hero.

[Greg Jenner]

Darren, I got 10 questions for you.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, here we go.

[Greg Jenner]

These are all things we've talked about, but let's. Let's see how you do. Okay, question one. What was the name of Hannibal's father?

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, it was a similar. Hanwall.

[Greg Jenner]

Hamilcar.

[Darren Harriot]

Hamilcar.

[Greg Jenner]

Hamilcar Barker. Well done. What childhood oath did Hannibal reportedly swear, aged nine?

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, it was I'll never have allegiance to Rome or something.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, that's it. Never be a friend of Rome.

[Darren Harriot]

There we go.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 3. Hannibal's defying of Roman orders and besieging Saguntum incited which major war?

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, no, say that again.

[Greg Jenner]

Hannibal defying the Roman orders, besieging the city of Saguntum on the border in his lands, incited which major war?

[Darren Harriot]

I can't remember. I can't. Was that the Punit War?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, very good.

[Darren Harriot]

War.

[Greg Jenner]

Second war. Yeah, I'll never. Hold on. Question four. How did the Carthaginians transport elephants across the Rhone River?

[Darren Harriot]

It was a whole Convoluted. They had to put something on the floor to make it look like it was grass on a river. And then they had to go across and then they got the females first. Yeah, very good.

[Greg Jenner]

Well done. According to the Roman historian Livy, why didn't Hannibal besiege Rome in 211 BCE?

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, well, there was. Oh, because there was too many army there. It was just bad timing.

[Greg Jenner]

And also the weather.

[Darren Harriot]

And there was a storm. Supposed to be like a hellstorm.

[Greg Jenner]

Hailstorm. Very good. Well done. And diverting troops to Spain as well, apparently. How did Hannibal defeat the much bigger Roman army at the famous Battle of Cannae?

[Darren Harriot]

I can't remember what it was called, but he basically tricked them, lured them into the center and then just took them out and made his center seem like it was easy and easy.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. The pincer movement of doom. Question 7, what role did Hannibal assume in Carthage after losing the Second Punic War?

[Darren Harriot]

What role? Wasn't he in politics?

[Greg Jenner]

He was, yeah, he won. He was a chief magistrate. Well done. I'll let you have that. Question 8. Name two of the ensuing peace conditions between Rome and Carthage that were forced on the Carthaginians.

[Darren Harriot]

Basically, it couldn't leave the area. They had to stay in the area and they had to give up, set fire to all their ships, leave 10. Was that what it was?

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Darren Harriot]

And.

[Greg Jenner]

That'S two. Yeah, you got it. And hand over their elephants.

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, yeah, hand over the elephants, of course.

[Greg Jenner]

And pay a big odd fine to 10,000 silver talents. Question 9. Which Roman general defeated Carthage but then defended Hannibal in the Senate when Hannibal was accused of plotting against Rome in Syria?

[Darren Harriot]

I can't remember the full name, but it was Scipio the Son. Right, that's it.

[Greg Jenner]

Scipio the Son. Very good. This for a perfect 10. What measure did Hannibal allegedly take against possible Roman capture?

[Darren Harriot]

Oh, poisoned himself.

[Greg Jenner]

He did. You nailed it, Darren. 10 out of 10.

[Darren Harriot]

That was great. Great. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Fantastic. Well done.

[Darren Harriot]

I can't wait to see Vin Diesel play this guy. I'm very excited.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, the budget on the animal handlers alone, I know, right?

[Darren Harriot]

I mean, honestly, family, elephants, go.

[Greg Jenner]

Who's Dwayne the Rock Johnson going to play? That's what I want to know. Thank you so much, Darren. And of course, thank you so much, Professor Joe Listener. If you want more from Darren, of course, check out the episode on Victorian bodybuilding that was also a huge fun. For more plucky generals from history, we've got episodes on Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar the Younger. Well, the young Julius Caesar, Robert Bruce, of course. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me either on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days early, or if you're outside the UK, use the BBC app or the BBC.com website. I'd just like to say huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the amazing Professor Josephine Quinn from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Josephine.

[Professor Josephine Quinn]

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we have the dazzling Darren Harriot. Thank you so much, Darren.

[Darren Harriot]

Thank you so much for having me. Loved it.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we lay siege to another tricky historical topic. But for now, I must go and teach elephants how to ski. Winter Olympics, here we come.

[Darren Harriot]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4.

[Rory Stewart]

I'm Rory Stewart and I want to talk about heroes When I was a child, I imagined a heroic future for myself in which I would achieve great things and die sacrificing my life for a noble cause before I was 30. But my experiences in the Middle east and in politics showed me that there was something deeply wrong with my idea of heroism. From BBC Radio 4, my podcast the Long History of Heroism explores ideas of what it meant to be a hero through time. How have these ideas changed? Who are the heroes we need today? Listen to Rory Stewart the Long History of Heroism first on BBC Sounds.

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