Hannibal of Carthage (Radio Edit)

Summary

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You're Dead to Me — Hannibal of Carthage (Radio Edit)

Released: January 16, 2026
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Professor Josephine Quinn (University of Cambridge, Ancient History), Darren Harriot (Comedian)

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Episode Overview

This episode of “You’re Dead to Me” is a lively, comedic deep-dive into the life and legacy of Hannibal of Carthage, the legendary general famed for taking elephants over the Alps and nearly toppling Rome. Greg Jenner, together with historian Professor Josephine Quinn and returning comedian Darren Harriot, unpacks Hannibal’s backstory, his military genius, unforgettable exploits, and the consequential moments that changed history’s trajectory. Expect a blend of rigorous historical detail, jokes, and banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who were the Carthaginians?

[04:42]

• Professor Quinn describes Carthage as a North African city in what is now Tunisia, originally a Phoenician colony founded in the 9th century BCE.
• The Carthaginians grew powerful through controlling trade routes, coastal access, and expanding inland as a major agricultural and trading hub.
• By the 4th century BCE, Carthage controlled territories across the Mediterranean: parts of North Africa, Sardinia, most of Sicily, and southern Spain.

“It expands by controlling access to other ports ... and it really kind of forbids other cities from sailing along any of the coastlines that are interesting to it.” (D, 05:13)

2. Hannibal’s Family & Early Life

[06:15]

• Hannibal bars from Carthage's aristocratic military elite, son of General Hamilcar Barca.
• His family, the Barcids, become pivotal figures in the wars against Rome.
• After Carthage’s loss in the First Punic War, Hamilcar moves to consolidate Carthaginian power in Spain.
• Young Hannibal (aged 9) begs to join his father's campaign in Spain and doesn’t return to Carthage for almost 40 years.

“The story goes that he’s nine years old when his dad leaves to go to Spain and he begs to join the expedition. … He doesn’t get back to Carthage until he is 45 years old.” (D, 08:06)

3. Rise to Command

[09:09]

• Hamilcar dies in Spain; command passes to Hasdrubal the Fair (Hannibal’s brother-in-law), then to Hannibal at age 26 after Hasdrubal’s assassination.
• Hannibal earns respect for his leadership, charisma, and willingness to risk—qualities that would define his military campaigns.

“He’s also a natural risk taker and he’s a great soldier.” (D, 10:28)

4. The Second Punic War: Origins and Outbreak

[10:56]

• Tensions with Rome ignite when Hannibal attacks Saguntum, a city nominally under Roman protection.
• Rome declares war—thus begins the Second Punic War in 218 BCE.

5. Crossing the Alps and Elephants

[12:40]

• Hannibal’s boldest move: leading an army, including elephants, over the Alps to invade Italy—something the Romans had not anticipated.
• Elephants struggled less with mountains than with rivers; crossing the Rhône required elaborate raft-bridges camouflaged with earth and herding tactics using female elephants as leaders.

“He has to construct a kind of bridge of rafts and then cover it in earth so the elephants think that it’s land... they lead the female elephants on first, so the others will just follow.” (D, 13:36)

• Numbers: left Spain with ~50,000 infantry, 9,000 cavalry, 37 elephants; arrived in Italy with only ~20,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, uncertain elephant numbers.
• The physical and psychological impact of elephants:

“Imagine going into a battle. You’ve never seen an elephant... That would terrify me.” (E, 12:48)

6. Battles & Tactical Brilliance

[14:48]

• Hannibal wins rapid-fire victories: Ticinus, Trebia, Lake Trasimene—inflicting catastrophic losses on Rome.
• Quintus Fabius Maximus, temporary Roman dictator, tries delaying tactics but Hannibal outmaneuvers him, famously using cattle with flaming horns to fake military movements and escape ambushes.
• At Cannae (216 BCE), Hannibal's tactics shine: feigned weakness in the army center draws Romans in, then strong cavalry encircle and annihilate them.

“He has this amazingly brilliant tactic, which is that he has a deliberately weak center... and then they’re surrounded by the cavalry. ... A bit of tactical brilliance on Hannibal’s part.” (D, 16:32)

7. Why Didn’t Hannibal Take Rome?

[17:19]

• After Cannae, Hannibal approaches Rome but waits five years to appear at the city’s gates—and never attempts an assault.
• Roman historians (notably Livy) attribute his hesitation to superstition (an omen: a hailstorm), but Professor Quinn argues it was more strategic:
  • Rome was too big to besiege
  • There was no profit in taking the city
  • His campaign’s true aim was to “put Rome back in its box,” not total destruction
  • Rome was incidentally full of soldiers on “parade day” when he arrived

“He never intended to actually conquer Rome. ... The strategy behind his whole campaign is to reduce Roman power in Italy and then in the Mediterranean more generally.” (D, 18:19)

8. The Tide Turns

[19:26]

• Shift in momentum as the younger Scipio (Scipio Africanus) recaptures Spain, then invades North Africa, drawing Hannibal back home.
• Final showdown at the Battle of Zama: Scipio decisively defeats Hannibal, ending major Carthaginian power.
• Carthage is stripped militarily (losing its navy and elephants), forced to pay hefty reparations, and limited to only 10 warships.

9. Hannibal’s Final Years & Death

[22:38]

• Hannibal becomes involved in Carthaginian politics, is accused of plotting with Antiochus III of Syria against Rome, and is forced into exile.
• Moves east, ultimately to Bithynia, where he chooses suicide by poison rather than face Roman capture (~182 BCE).

“He always carried poison with him in case he was captured by the Romans. So he seems to have died by suicide sometime around 182 BCE.” (D, 23:54)

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The Nuance Window: Sophonisba – The Carthaginian Queen

[24:51]
Professor Quinn shares the deeply dramatic tale of Sophonisba—a Carthaginian aristocrat who shaped the outcome of the war by marrying two North African Numidian kings (first Syphax, then Masinissa).

• Her marriages were strategic, influencing major alliances and tipping the war’s result.
• When Roman victory made her a potential captive, her husband gave her poison to avoid the dishonor.
• A story illustrating both the agency and the precariousness of women in ancient diplomacy.

“Instead, Masinissa offers his new bride a cup of poison, which she courageously drinks. ... That’s men for you.” (D, 27:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hannibal’s Early Ambition:
  “He doesn’t get back to Carthage until he is 45 years old.” — Professor Quinn [08:06]

• Comedy about Elephant Handling:
  “Do peanuts work? ... Maybe a trail of peanuts. Maybe some cashews going off a mountain.” — Darren Harriot [13:12]

• Hannibal’s Army Shrinking:
  “He leaves with 37 [elephants], and he shows up with… we don’t know, two elephants. Some elephants.” — Professor Quinn [14:17]

• Clever Battlefield Tactics:
  “He ties burning brands to the horns of 2,000 cattle and drives them up against the Roman troops.” — Professor Quinn [15:23]
  “That’s also like a night out, that is.” — Darren Harriot [14:06]

• Why Not March on Rome?
  “He never intended to actually conquer Rome. ... There’s no real profit to Carthage in acquiring Rome or destroying it.” — Professor Quinn [18:19]

• On Hannibal’s Death:
  “He always carried poison with him in case he was captured by the Romans.” — Professor Quinn [23:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Car­thaginians & Ancient Carthage: 04:42–06:00
• Hannibal’s Family & Upbringing: 06:15–09:09
• Rise to Power & Early Command: 09:09–10:28
• Second Punic War & Saguntum: 10:56–11:55
• Crossing Alps w/ Elephants: 12:40–14:17
• Big Battles (Ticinus, Trebia, Trasimene, Cannae): 14:48–16:54
• March on Rome & Strategic Choices: 17:00–19:06
• Shift to Roman Advantage & End of War: 19:26–21:38
• Hannibal’s Last Years and Death: 22:38–24:09
• Nuance Window – Sophonisba’s Tale: 24:51–27:15

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Tone & Style

The episode is characterized by Greg Jenner’s signature wit and the relaxed, humorous interplay between Professor Quinn’s expertise and Darren Harriot’s comedic reactions. Both depth and levity infuse the discussion, making ancient history feel urgent, relatable, and sometimes laugh-out-loud funny.

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Further Listening

Greg highlights related past episodes tackling other remarkable generals, such as Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar, and Robert Bruce, as well as previous appearances by Darren Harriot.

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Summary written for listeners seeking an engaging, in-depth guide to “Hannibal of Carthage” and his impact on the ancient Mediterranean world.

Transcript

[A]

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50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy see terms. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we're mounting our war ele and marching back to the ancient Mediterranean to learn all about Carthaginian General Hannibal Barker. And joining our campaign, we have two very special comrades in arms in History Corner, she's Professor of Ancient History at the University of Cambridge and a specialist on Roman, North African and Phoenician history and archaeology. You might have read her award winning book In Search of the Phoenicians or her best selling award nominated new one, how the World Made the West a 4,000 year history. It's brilliant. Is Professor Josephine Quinn. Welcome Joe.

[D]

Thanks for having me.

[C]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian, writer and presenter. You'll have seen him on all the TV shows like Live at the Apollo, Love Island, After Sun Roast Battle, Mock the Week, Dancing on Ice. Or heard him on the radio on Newsjack, Unplugged, Infinite Monkey Cage, Black Label and of course you remember Him. From our episode on Victorian bodybuilding, it's Darren Harriot. Welcome back, Darren.

[E]

Thank you for having me.

[C]

Darren, last time you demonstrated incredible knowledge. You were basically an expert on Eugene Sandow.

[E]

I was so excited to come in and talk about Eugene. Yeah, I know, I know so much about bodybuilder and I'd. I think maybe like a year before I'd watched a documentary about him twice. So I came in here. So cocky. I know it all. Guys, very different to today, right?

[C]

I was going to say the history of ancient North Africa.

[E]

Yeah, yeah. Not really my specialist subject that, but I'm excited. There's going to be a lot of questions I'm going to throw out, guys.

[C]

Okay. Does the name Hannibal ring a bell?

[E]

It does, yeah. I know, I know a couple of Hannibals. Hannibals from TV shows. A comedian. It stops there.

[C]

Okay. Hannibal Buress.

[E]

Hannibal Buress.

[D]

There we go.

[E]

Yeah, that's it. That's my knowledge.

[C]

So what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast. It's called the so what do you know? Where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener might know about today's subject. And when I say Hannibal, you might like Darren, be thinking of TV people. I think of the cigar chomping leader of the A team.

[E]

Oh yeah, I know three.

[C]

More likely you're thinking of the famous fictional serial killer. But today it's less Hannibal the Cannibal and more Hannibal of Carthage. Hannibal has appeared in a ton of historical novels, including ones by Ross Leckie and Ben Kane. Several films as well. The 1959 film Annibale and the 2009 film Hannibal. And apparently if Vin Diesel gets his way back, maybe soon we'll be getting a high octane Hannibal trilogy. I can't wait to watch an elephant power drift around a hairpin corner. That is what we all want to see. But what is the fact behind the fiction? Did Hannibal really have an elephant era? Did a hailstorm change history? Let's find out. Right, Professor Joe, before we meet Hannibal, I think we probably need a quick crash course on the Carthaginians. Actually, you know what? I'm gonna turn to Darren and put you on the spot.

[D]

There we go.

[C]

Where was Carthage in? I'll give you North Africa.

[E]

Yeah, North Africa. Okay. Yeah. How north are we talking?

[C]

Pretty north.

[E]

Okay. On the sea by the sea. Yeah, that doesn't really help me. Like Egypt, west of, west of. Yeah, where's west of Egypt? Is that Morocco?

[C]

Too west.

[E]

Too west.

[C]

I'm going back To Joe. Joe, hold on.

[E]

Keep doing it with me for a little bit. We could be here for an hour.

[D]

It's right in the middle. So ancient Carthage is in modern Tunisia. It's actually now sort of seaside suburb of modern Tunis. Really lovely, in fact, lots of great cafes there. But it was originally founded as a colonial settlement in the 9th century BCE by people we now call Phoenicians. And these are sailors who were based in the ports of the Levant. So modern Lebanon more or less, so cities like Tyre and Sidon and so on. I mean, the archaeologists estimate has about 30,000 people after about a century, which would make it an extremely massive city in the Western Mediterranean in that era. It expands by controlling access to other ports in the Western Mediterranean and to the coastline. It really kind of forbids other cities from sailing along any of the coastlines that are interesting to it. And then later on in its history, it actually expands inland as well, becomes a sort of farming state into North Africa. So by the 4th century BCE, so 500 years after it's founded, the Carthaginians control territory and trade across a huge swathe of North Africa, but also the islands of Sardinia, most of Sicily and a lot of southern Spain as well.

[C]

Let's meet Hannibal. He is the most famous of all the Carthaginians. You know, the Carthaginian Empire is vast, you said, in the 500 years already. But we're going to talk about Hannibal today. So when was he born? What was his family background? Is he posh? Is he, you know, is he kind of working class, works his way up?

[D]

So Carthage is an oligarchic republic, so it's a bit like Rome. It's got a public assembly, but it' the people in charge are mostly from fairly ancient aristocratic families. And that's the background. That's Hannibal's background. So he's born in 247 BCE. He's the son of a general called Hamilcar Barca. And this general fought in the first Punic War against Rome. He has two brothers, we know that they're called Hasdrubal and Mago. He has three sisters. Nobody bothers to tell us what they're called, unfortunately. Well, you know, it's a different time. And what's, what's been going on when Hannibal is born is this first war between Carthage and Rome. And basically the relationship between the two cities gets increasingly strained due to various central Mediterranean politics. And war breaks out in 264. And Hamilcar, who's Hannibal's father, he's sent to Sicily to prosecute this war in 247. So the same year that Hannibal is born until 241 when Rome defeats Carthage at the battle of the Egady Islands off Western S. That's the end of the first Punic War. It's the first really big defeat ever.

[C]

So this is the first Punic War. The fact it's the first one tells us more are coming.

[D]

Exactly, exactly.

[C]

Okay, so the dad, Hamilcar Barker, so he's been fighting in Sicily. Where do you think his son grows up?

[E]

Did his son grow up in Sicily?

[C]

I mean, that's a sensible guess.

[E]

Well, you wouldn't take your son with you, would you?

[C]

No, he grows up in Spain.

[E]

What, was that just to protect him? Was that just to protect his family? How'd he grow up in Spain?

[D]

No, because once Rome has taken Sicily and Sardinia, basically what Carthage wants to do is consolidate its holdings in southern Spain, which it's had some level of sort of interest in before that. But it's really the only place left that it can really expand now without kind of hitting the Romans again. So Hamilcar, who's really. I mean his reputation is really enhanced by what happened in the first Punic War. Even though they lost, he was the big Carthaginian star. So he takes a force to Spain in 237 and once he gets there, he basically acts a bit like an independent prince, but it's all with the permission of the Carthaginian Senate. And the reason that Hannibal goes with him, and the story goes that he's nine years old when his dad leaves to go to Spain and he begs to join the expedition. And so his dad lets him and he doesn't get back to Carthage until he is 45 years old.

[C]

Whoa.

[D]

Nine. Yeah. And then his dad dies in battle in 229, 2298. Hannibal's about 18 at this point and obviously he's too young to take command. Command of the Carthaginian armies in Spain goes to his brother in law who's called Hasdrubal the Fair.

[C]

I mean, we've got Hamilcar, Hasdrubal, Hannibal and another. I mean, yeah, Hamilcar, Hasdrubal, Hannibal and Hasdrubal. Darren, are you keeping up with the Carpassians?

[E]

I love that. Yes, I am. I'm on series three.

[C]

How do you think the brothers get on? How do you think? Because Hannibal's got brothers, he's got sisters. How do you reckon?

[E]

They probably didn't like each other there's probably a power struggle of some sorts of older taking over. He's old enough to fight. Do they all grow up in Spain?

[D]

A lot of the family do seem to kind of grow up in Spain together and they actually, they kind of get on okay. And Hasdrubal seems to be a pretty good replacement for Hamilcar. And we don't know very much about what Hannibal's doing in this period, but he's definitely leading some of the military campaigns against some of the local populations into their territory.

[C]

He eventually manages to replace his brother in law as the supreme commander in Iberia. How do you think he manages it?

[E]

Did he kill him?

[D]

He didn't kill him, no.

[B]

Did he?

[D]

No. Poor old Hasdrubal gets assassinated by one of their allies, apparently about 222, 2,221.

[E]

Sounds like a Roman to me.

[D]

Who knows what may be going on behind the scenes, but what happens is that the Carthaginian troops then choose Hannibal as their new leader. And by now he's 26. That's a kind of respectable age. And he's unanimously confirmed by the Carthagin and Senate back at home as well, even though he hasn't been home at this point for almost 20 years.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[D]

And he starts campaigning straight away. So after a year he's moved further into Iberia than either Hamilcar or Hasdrubal after him. You know, we hear he treats his troops very well. He's also a natural risk taker and he's a great soldier.

[C]

Hannibal was now spending his twenties like many lads do, annoying the Spanish locals, rampaging around with his buddies, and then he falls out with Rome. How has he fallen? I mean, look, come on, we know what's happening next, but like, what's, what's the sort of story here?

[D]

Okay, so there's a town called Saguntum on the east coast of Spain. It's now a suburb of Valencia, and it's the last holdout against Hannibal and the Carthaginians south of the Ebro river. And so the Saguntines appeal to Rome for support against Hannibal and Rome officially warns Hannibal to leave Saguntum alone, even though it's south of the Ebro. And so it's really in Hannibal's sphere. So he calls their bluff and he besieges the city anyway. And you know, we hear he kind of directly engages with the fighting. He only leaves the battlefield when he takes a wound to the sternum and he has to go off and deal with another uprising at that point okay.

[C]

So he sort of poked the bull a little bit because you've kind of. The Romans are like. And he's like, I'm gonna. We now get the second Punic War in 218 BCE. I mean, we get a proper famous Roman now. Scipio. Can you tell us about him?

[D]

So Rome sends an embassy to Carthage in 218 to declare war. Their initial plan is to send a consul called Publius Cornelius Scipio, and he's actually the father of the famous Scipio, to fight Hannibal in Spain. And their idea is they're going to send one consul to sp. Another consul to Africa. So two consuls take the Roman army in two directions and get rid of the whole threat in both directions. But then what happens is that Hannibal again basically decides to kind of call their bluff, and he actually decides to invade Italy himself, which they are not expecting.

[E]

You know what? I'm really liking this Hannibal. I didn't expect that at all. This is great. He doesn't care, does he?

[D]

So he basically has to take his troops and elephants overland from Spain to Italy because Rome essentially controls the sea at this point.

[E]

You imagine going into a battle. You've never seen an elephant.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

You're like, what is that? That's a very. Yeah, I never thought of that. Yeah, I guess I don't have Discovery Channel. They can't check these. I can't check these things out. That would terrify me if I read the battle and there's an elephant there.

[C]

Darren, obvious question. How would you convince a bunch of angry elephants to cross some mountains? He's crossing from Spain to Italy. So he's going over the Alps.

[E]

Where?

[C]

He's going over the Pyrenees. Pyrenees and then the Alps.

[E]

That's a very good point. Do peanuts work? I've seen peanuts work quite a bit. Maybe a trail of peanuts. Maybe some cashews going off a mountain.

[C]

14,000 tons of peanuts along hundreds of miles of mountain pathway. Okay, Jo, how do you convince elephants to go off mountain pastes?

[D]

Okay. So the real problem with the elephants isn't actually the mountain. The elephants can kind of manage the mountains. It's the river. It's when he has to cross the Rhone in between the Pyrenees and the Alps. And elephants really don't like crossing water. So what he has to do is construct a kind of bridge of rafts and then cover it in earth so the elephants think that it's land, but then they lead the female elephants on first, so the other elephants will just follow. So that's also.

[E]

That's also like A night out that is.

[D]

So eventually they do, but we don't know. He leaves, leave Siberia with 37 elephants and we honestly don't know how many arrive in Italy.

[C]

He leaves with 37 and he shows.

[D]

Up with, we don't know, two elephants. Some elephants.

[C]

Okay, so he leaves Iberia with 50,000 soldiers on foot, 9,000 cavalry, 37 elephants. How many soldiers do you think he arrives with, Darren?

[E]

I'm gonna go 20,000.

[C]

That's bang on.

[E]

Whoa, that's amazing.

[C]

As far as we can tell, Joe, he arrives 20,000 soldiers to left and about 6,000 cavalry. He's lost more than half his army. And then what, was there a Roman army waiting for him to ambush him?

[D]

Yeah, there is, but it doesn't do them much good because he has this series of incredible victories in his first months in Italy. He wins the Battle of Ticinus in November, right after he's crossed the Alps. He wins the Battle of Trebia in December. Then the following June, he wins this enormous battle at Lake Trasimeni. This is all kind of north and central Italy. And then he carries on south. And in the autumn of 2017 there's.

[C]

A 2017 BC right.

[D]

In the autumn of 217, Rome has a temporary dictator because it's a state of emergency. Quintus Fabius Maximus, and he tries to block a passer Napulia and ambush the Carthaginian army. But what Hannibal does is that he ties burning brands to the horns of 2000 cattle and drives them up against the Roman troops. So that gets rid of the Roman.

[C]

Troops, sets fire to live cows and charges them at the Romans.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

He's got a lot of time on his hand, hasn't he?

[D]

He's doing very well. He also gains loads of allies in Italy. And then comes the Battle of Cannae. And this is the biggest defeat of all for the Romans, unsurprisingly. And they've got more troops. So Rome's got somewhere between 70 and 85,000 troo troops. There are 50,000 Carthaginians and allies at this point. But the reason that Hannibal wins is he has this amazingly brilliant tactic, which is that he has a deliberately weak centre in his army to attract the Romans to attack him in the centre. And then he has cavalry, very strong cavalry on both wings with one of his nephews and he's called Hanno, and another guy called Hasdrubal on the other side. And so what happens is that the Romans kind of surge into the center where they see the we and Then they're surrounded by the cavalry. And this is complete. A bit of tactical brilliance on Hannibal's part. And Rome suffers incredibly heavy losses.

[C]

So geographically, where is he now? Hannibal, after this big win at Cannae.

[D]

After Cannae, he's in the south of Italy.

[C]

So how close is he to Rome?

[D]

About 400 kilometres.

[C]

Darren, would you. Would you march on Rome?

[E]

I would. So go into Rome? Yeah. I think he went into Rome and just tried to take over and just tried to kill whoever he could kill and then just set fire to. Set fire to a bunch of cats with, like little daggers and they just all ran in there.

[C]

Joe, does he march on Rome? Cause Darren would.

[D]

No, no, he doesn't. He doesn't. And I'm afraid he's really sensible. I mean, what he does is he's.

[E]

A sensible thing you said about him. I'm actually in shock that he didn't do that.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

But eventually. So he does eventually march on rome, but it's five years later in 211. And so Hannibal marches right up to the gates of Rome, but he doesn't attack.

[E]

He doesn't attack. Is it just to show I can do this, Like, I can come here anytime I want?

[D]

Well, the later Roman sources make it out to all be a kind of terrible mistake. There's a hailstorm that he takes as an unfavorable omen. And he also hears that Rome is diverting troops to Spain at this point, so he thinks they're not taking him seriously and he basically chickens out. But, I mean, that's quite important to Romans to make him seem like a really superstitious kind of scared person.

[C]

So this is a later Roman historian called Livy.

[D]

Exactly. This is Livy's version of the story. But actually, I think a much more likely way of telling the story is that he never intended to actually conquer Rome. It's much too big a job. And also, there's no real profit to Carthage in acquiring Rome or destroying it. I think the strategy behind his whole campaign is to reduce Roman power in Italy and then in the Mediterranean more generally, basically to put Rome back in its box. I mean, what's the really bad piece of luck for Hannibal is that on the very day that he arrives at Rome, unbeknownst to him, the Romans have actually called a muster of soldiers in the city because they're recruiting some new legions. So actually, Rome is full of soldiers.

[E]

He got there on the parade day, basically.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

This is a hinge point in history. Right. Because if he'd crushed Rome in that Moment we might never have had the Roman Empire. Okay. So the hailstorm is probably a later sort of Roman literary sort of legend or whatever. But he doesn't take Rome and then it doesn't kind of work out. So he gets sort of trapped down in Bruttium.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And he's there for four years.

[D]

Four years exactly. Yeah. What goes on in this period is that Scipio the son.

[C]

Oh, the good one.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. He gets elected commander in Spain and he captures. So he starts. The Romans start to make real progress in Spain. So basically the Barcids lose control of Iberia. Scipio having done quite a bit of damage to the Carthaginians in Spain, he now takes the war to North Africa. So the Romans actually invade North Africa and Scipio sets fire to a Carthaginian camp near Utica, which is west of Carthage in Tunisia. We're in 203 now. And Scipio then defeats the Carthaginians in battle. A Carthaginian force led by another Hasdrubal I'm afraid Francisco. Yeah. And at that point the Carthaginians sue for peace and they try and blame everything on the bar kids.

[E]

Of course they do.

[D]

So Scipio orders them to withdraw from Gaul, Spain and Italy. They have to give up their navy apart from 20 ships and they have to pay a huge fine. Now this. Then it gets a bit tricky. So they provisionally accept this treaty but it hasn't been formally signed off. And at that point the council of Carthaginian elders finally summon Hannibal home to Africa.

[C]

So he's been at war in Italy for 15 years and then suddenly he gets a letter saying get home.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, come home. Yeah. And then what happens is that Carthage breaks. This certainly what Rome think is a truce by looting Roman supply vessels. Some Roman envoys get attacked by a mob at Carthage and the council of elders encourages Hannibal to go after Scipio. And then you have the battle of Zama. And this is the final big Roman victory in Africa. Yeah. There is a final peace treaty which means that Carthage now can't fight wars outside Africa. They have to pay 10,000 silver talents, find a massive amount of money. They have to hand over all their elephants and they have to reduce their fleet to 10 Ships. The rest of the fleet is burned.

[C]

10 Ships is handing over your elephants like in a movie where a sort of maverick cop have to turn shield and gun.

[E]

There you go chief.

[C]

Yeah, sorry Sarge.

[D]

He does disappear from the records for a few years after that. But then he comes back. He comes back. So he comes back to politics in Carthage, you know, where he hasn't been since he's a child. He becomes one of the two Shofferts who are the two kind of senior magistrates at Carthage. 196 BCE. But the next year he gets into trouble with Rome. So the Romans by now have moved on. They're fighting the king of Syria, the Seleucid king, Antiochus iii. And they hear that Hannibal is in contact with Antiochus, even though. Yeah, even though Scipio himself defends Hannibal in the Roman Senate, they believe that he's plotting behind their back.

[E]

Wow. Oh, and he was burning inside him, I bet. Just so angry. All those wins and that one time, everything just goes downhill.

[C]

I mean. So Joe, in terms of what we know was Hannibal colluding with Antiochus of Syria?

[D]

Okay, we don't know. But when Rome asks Carthage to indict him, he's outlawed and he does flee to Antiochus court. So you know. Right. Yeah. And he does then play kind of a minor role in Antiochus war with Rome. But then the Romans defeat the Seleucids and again they demand that they give up Hannibal and he escapes again. He goes further east and he ends up in the kingdom of Bithynia on the Black Sea.

[C]

Darren, do you know what happens to Hannibal in the end?

[E]

No, no, he. I mean, he defeats the Romans.

[C]

Oh, you're clinging to that story.

[E]

It just sounds great. It's either. No, I don't know what happens to him. Okay. How does he die? I don't think he's gonna be in battle.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

I think I just one of those like stupid deaths that happens back then or something. That's what I honestly, I really think it. Was it an animal? Did an elephant accidentally fall on him?

[D]

That is not what happened.

[E]

What happened to my new hero?

[D]

Reportedly he always carried poison with him in case he was captured by the Romans. So he. He seems to have died by suicide sometime around 182bce.

[C]

It's quite the life, Darren.

[E]

Quite the life. Yeah, he's one. One heck of a traveler. I just. I really like the fact that he just. He just wouldn't give up. He just always had it in his heart that he just didn't. He just didn't like them, just wanted to get them. And he nearly did. Oh, poor guy.

[C]

Hannibal of Carthage. Quite the career. The nuance. Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is where Darren and I sit silently in the command tent to strategize for two minutes while Professor Jo takes centre stage to tell us Something we need to know about ancient North Africa. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Quinn.

[D]

Thank you. Okay, so after all these men and all their battles, I want to talk about a Carthaginian woman who plays her own important role in the war between Carthage and Rome by marrying not one, but two Numidian kings. And in the end, proved braver than both of them. So Sophonisba was an aristocratic Carthaginian woman, Saffambal. In her own language, we hear that she was beautiful, learned, musical, and she was the daughter of the general Hasdrubal Gisco, who we've seen being defeated by the Romans in 203. And what we're told is that in 206, she had been engaged to the local Numidian king, Masinissa, and he controlled the inland region beyond Carthaginian territor. So in a lot of what's now Tunisia. The Carthaginian Senate, though, ordered her to marry his rival, Syphax instead. And Syphax ruled most of what's now Algeria. From Khearthm on Constantine. Syphax was considered a more important strategic ally to Carthage than Masinissa. And Sophonisba accepted this decision. But Masinissa wasn't happy. And this is supposedly what persuaded him to throw his support and his crack cavalry behind Rome instead of Carthage. And this was absolutely crucial for Rome's eventual victory at Zama. Meanwhile, Sothonisba had persuaded her new husband, Syphax, to stick with Carthage in the final stages of the war. But in the end, after Scipio defeated hasdrubal Gisco in 203 with Masinissa's help, Masinissa himself wins a decisive victory over Syphax with Roman help. And he takes the other king prisoner and he comes to Caer to take possession of his palace and his wife. And so Sophonisba and Masinissa finally marry. But when Scipio, when the Roman general finds out that Sophonisba had played a decisive role in Syphax's calculations against Rome, he demands that Masinissa turn her over to him as a prisoner. And that's not going to happen. So instead, Masinissa offers his new bride a cup of poison, which she courageously drinks. And then he takes Scipio her corpse. I have to say, he can't have been too upset, though, because he then remains an ally of Rome for 50 years. So that's mem for you.

[C]

What a story. Thank you, Joe. I mean, Sophonisba, she really. I mean, she played quite Dangerous game there.

[D]

And, yeah, I mean, she was in all the rooms where it happened.

[C]

Right.

[E]

Did you say, did she know it was poison or did he.

[D]

Yeah, she knew.

[E]

She knew, she knew.

[D]

No, she was absolutely in on it. She didn't want to be a prisoner of Rome any more than he did.

[E]

Wow. She was like, are you gonna take it? I said, no, no, no, no, afterwards. You first.

[C]

I've just cleaned my teeth. Thank you so much, Darren. And of course, thank you so much, Professor Joe Listener. If you want more from Darren, of course, check out the episode on Victorian bodybuilding that was also huge fun. For more plucky generals from history, we've got episodes on Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar the Younger. Well, the young Julius Caesar, Robert Bruce, of course. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the amazing Professor Josephine Quinn from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Joe.

[D]

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

[C]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the dazzling Darren Harriot. Thank you so much, Darren.

[E]

Thank you so much for having me. Loved it.

[C]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we lay siege to another tricky historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and teach elephants how to ski. Winter Olympics, here we come.

[E]

Bye.

[C]

You're dead to me is a BBC sk studios production for BBC radio 4.

[B]

I'm Rory Stewart and I want to talk about heroes. When I was a child, I imagined a heroic future for myself in which I would achieve great things and die sacrificing my life for a noble cause before I was 13. But my experiences in the Middle east and in politics showed me that there was something deeply wrong with my idea of heroism from BBC Radio 4. My podcast, the Long History of Heroism explores ideas of what it meant to be a hero through time. How have these ideas changed? Who are the heroes we need today? Listen to Rory Stewart. The Long History of Heroism first on BBC7 Sounds.

[F]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merryman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.