Hernán Cortés and Malintzin (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me Episode: Hernán Cortés and Malintzin (Radio Edit) Release Date: June 13, 2025 Host: Greg Jenner Guests: Dr. Amy Fuller (History Corner) and Jen Brister (Comedy Corner)

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Introduction

In this episode of BBC Radio 4's You’re Dead to Me, host Greg Jenner delves into the tumultuous saga of the Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés and his indispensable indigenous translator, Malintzin (also known as La Malinche). Joined by historian Dr. Amy Fuller and comedian Jen Brister, the trio explores the intricate dynamics between these two figures and the broader implications of the Spanish conquest of Mexico.

Hernán Cortés: The Ambitious Conquistador

Greg Jenner begins by introducing Hernán Cortés, highlighting his early life and rise within the Spanish colonial hierarchy. Born in 1485 in Medellín, Extremadura, Cortés was a hidalgo—a member of the petty nobility. Despite limited wealth, he possessed a legal education that likely contributed to his later endeavors.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner, [03:03]: "He was a not very rich hidalgo, but well educated."

At the age of 19, Cortés embarks on his journey to the New World in 1504, initially settling in Hispaniola (modern-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic). His ambition leads him to participate in the conquest of Cuba under Diego Velázquez, the governor of the island, where Cortés serves as Velázquez's secretary and gains valuable experience.

Malintzin: The Indigenous Translator

Malintzin, whose baptismal name was Marina, is introduced as a pivotal yet often overlooked figure in the conquest of Mexico. Born around 1500, she was of Nahua descent—a group central to the Aztec Empire—but was enslaved as a young girl and lived among the Maya for some time.

Notable Quote:

Dar Aubrey (Dr. Amy Fuller), [05:47]: "She's sold into slavery with the Maya, essentially, when she's a young girl."

Her linguistic prowess, fluent in both Maya and Nahuatl (the language of the Aztecs), made her an invaluable asset to Cortés. Initially one of twenty girls given to the Spanish as a diplomatic gesture, Malintzin's ability to navigate between different indigenous groups and the Spanish was crucial in forging alliances and negotiating with leaders like Moctezuma II.

The Conquest of Tenochtitlan

Cortés's expedition to the Yucatán Peninsula leads him to the formidable city of Tenochtitlan, the heart of the Aztec Empire. With a mere two and a half thousand Spaniards, supplemented by indigenous allies such as the Tlaxcalans who opposed Aztec dominance, Cortés faces the challenge of subduing a sophisticated and well-defended city.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner, [14:10]: "So about two and a half thousand people show up on the doors of this fast imperial citadel and they just, what, ring the doorbell and say, hello, we've come to conquer you."

Moctezuma's initial strategy involved welcoming Cortés with gifts, including gold, to assert Aztec power and buy time. However, tensions escalate, leading to Moctezuma's eventual captivity and the fall of Tenochtitlan. The role of Malintzin becomes increasingly significant as she navigates the precarious balance between Spanish demands and indigenous expectations.

Dynamics Between Cortés and Malintzin

The relationship between Cortés and Malintzin is complex, rooted in power imbalances and survival instincts. While Cortés leverages her skills to advance his conquest, Malintzin herself faced limited agency, ultimately becoming a symbol of both collaboration and betrayal in Mexican history.

Notable Quote:

Jen Brister, [24:19]: "It's quite a sad story. It's tragic. There's no part of it that isn't."

Despite her crucial role, Malintzin's legacy has been marred by post-independence narratives that unfairly scapegoat her, labeling her as a traitor. However, contemporary historical assessments, as discussed by Dr. Fuller, recognize her as a key facilitator in the Spanish conquest, often overshadowing Cortés's own ruthless tactics.

Historical Perspectives and Legacy

Dr. Amy Fuller elaborates on how historical narratives have evolved, particularly focusing on Malintzin's diminishing reputation following Mexico's independence in 1821. While earlier accounts by historians like William Prescott celebrated Cortés as a heroic figure, modern scholarship seeks to re-evaluate both Cortés's and Malintzin's roles with a more critical lens.

Notable Quote:

Dar Aubrey (Dr. Amy Fuller), [27:06]: "They are presented as being tricked by Cortez into fighting against Moctezuma the tyrant, yet she is not awarded the same dispensation."

Conversely, contemporary indigenous sources and Spanish conquistador testimonies from the period underscore Malintzin's indispensable contributions, sometimes even portraying her as more influential than Cortés himself.

Nuance Window: Reassessing Malintzin

In the "Nuance Window" segment, Dr. Fuller addresses the multifaceted legacy of Malintzin, emphasizing the need to understand her actions within the context of extreme duress and limited choices. While she played a significant role in the Spanish conquest, her story also reflects the broader narratives of colonization, cultural assimilation, and the erosion of indigenous agency.

Notable Quote:

Dar Aubrey (Dr. Amy Fuller), [25:26]: "She wasn't Aztec, nor did she have much agency of her own. [...] She was trying to survive."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the enduring impact of Hernán Cortés and Malintzin's actions on Mexican history. Jen Brister poignantly summarizes the tragic nature of their story, highlighting Cortés's ruthless ambition and Malintzin's constrained agency.

Notable Quote:

Jen Brister, [25:07]: "Cortes is a hero. [...] He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in history. I would say he's a truly awful human being."

Greg Jenner wraps up the discussion by encouraging listeners to explore more episodes related to Mexican history and acknowledges the invaluable insights provided by the guests.

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Additional Resources

For listeners eager to delve deeper into similar historical narratives, You’re Dead to Me recommends episodes on:

• Emma of Normandy: Featuring all the elf Givous.
• The Aztecs: Series One.
• Sacagawea: A deep dive into another pivotal indigenous figure.
• The Colombian Exchange: Exploring the consequences of Columbus's voyages.

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe and share the podcast to stay informed about upcoming episodes that continue to blend humor with serious historical discourse.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory segments unrelated to the episode's main content, and concluding promotional material for other series.

Transcript

[Dar Aubrey]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Jen Brister]

Oh.

[Mel Gedroich]

Oh, hi, I'm Mel Gedroich and I'm going to be your host on.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, there's a winner, there's a wake.

[Dar Aubrey]

There's a wake.

[Mel Gedroich]

So each week I'm going to be meeting with a different deceased celeb guest to discuss how they died, what they want for their funeral, and perhaps most importantly, why I should be unlocking the pearly gates for them. You'll laugh, you probably won't cry, but bloody hell, you'll be entertained. Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador Hernan Cortez and his indigenous translator Malinsin. And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests in History Corner, she's senior Lecturer in the History of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity and Empire is Dr. Amy Fuller. Welcome, Amy.

[Dar Aubrey]

Thanks for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen, seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, the Other Mother. I love the audiobook. Or her podcast wtb, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title. And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic, it's Jen Brister. Welcome, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure.

[Greg Jenner]

We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England, trying to remember that everyone was called Elfgivu.

[Jen Brister]

Oh my God, what a name. Elfgivu. And not only that, not understand or not having any knowledge about my own history like that is quite something. And now I'm half. I'm half English and I'm half Spanish. So what I've realized is in the last episode, I knew nothing about English history and today it'll be proven I.

[Greg Jenner]

Know nothing about Spanish history and Mexican history.

[Jen Brister]

Mexican history even less.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so what do you know? This is the so what do you know? Where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you have heard the name Cortez, the Conquistador. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big Baddie in the DreamWorks Animation the Road to El Dorado. But unless you are Mexican or maybe American, I suspect Melinsin. I imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books, and appears in some famous murals, one painted by Diego Rivera in Mexico City. He was the husband of Frida Kahlo.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, yes, I do know who he is. Look at me. One point already. Well done.

[Greg Jenner]

But how have their reputations changed over time? And what exactly is Moctezuma's Revenge? Let's find out. We'll start with Cortes, purely because he happened to be born first. So, Amy, who was he? Is he an aristocrat? You know, when he's born, is he rich?

[Dar Aubrey]

He was born in 1485 in Medellin, which is in Extremadora in Spain. So he was a hidalgo. He was petty nobility. We'd probably call him. Not very rich. We don't know a massive amount about him, to be honest. We think he probably had some legal training. Fairly well educated, I'd say.

[Greg Jenner]

But in 1492, Hernan Cortes is seven years old. Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen in search of India and bumps into what's called the New World. Inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernan Cortes decide he wants to follow in Columbus's wake? Because 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah. He's off to seek his fortune in the New World. He arrives in 1504. So he's 19 and he goes off to a place called Hispaniola, which is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic at that point. That's the base of operations in what they called the Indies.

[Jen Brister]

And the indigenous people that lived in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic, would they have had any sort of relation to the Incas or like. Mexico is not that far away. Were they more similar to.

[Dar Aubrey]

They had smaller towns, so they. You don't find the kind of big cities with the pyramids and things like that in the Caribbean, but you do see decent sized kind of towns. But they were supposed to go and convert them to Christianity and therefore they shouldn't have been allowed to enslave them, but they just kind of enslaved them instead.

[Jen Brister]

It happens. You pop out there to talk about Jesus Christ and before you know it. You've got, you know, hundred thousands of slaves.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. We should probably turn to Melinson in 1504. Cortes is 19 years old. Melinsin is a toddler at this point.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah. So we think she was born in 1500.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dar Aubrey]

We don't really know much about her or her early life. We think that her father was of some kind of nobility, but we think that her mother was enslaved. She's now her. So she's from central Mexico, but she's not Aztec. That's quite important. Ok. From an area that gets taken over by the Aztecs. It's kind of on the Gulf Coast. She's sold into slavery with the Maya, essentially, when she's a young girl. We think she lives among the Maya for quite a time.

[Greg Jenner]

And we don't even know her real name. Right. We know her Maya later.

[Dar Aubrey]

We only know her baptismal name, which was Marina. And Malinson comes from that because there's no R in Nahuatl. So they would hear Malina, but they put the sin at the end, which is an honorific title. So that is essentially Donia Marina in Nahuatl.

[Jen Brister]

So Malinsin, she is Nahua, she's not Maya and she's not Aztec.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes. No, she's from a different group entirely.

[Jen Brister]

And the Nahua people are.

[Dar Aubrey]

So they are who? Basically everyone who lives in the central region of what's now Mexico. So basically where the Aztec Empire was.

[Greg Jenner]

In our heads, I guess. Over here in the uk, we know the Aztecs is like the dominant superpower of the region.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes. They rise to prominence in the 1420s. They managed to create this empire that spreads from the Pacific to the Gulf coast in 100 years. But it's patchy, and this becomes a problem later on. They don't conquer everywhere.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a franchise. Is it like Starbucks?

[Dar Aubrey]

So both in terms of goods that they want, but also people for sacrifice. So they essentially don't bother to conquer anyone who doesn't have what they want or is too difficult to conquer.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's get back to Cortes. He's in Hispaniola. So he has not got to Mexico yet?

[Dar Aubrey]

No, no one has.

[Greg Jenner]

And he is. He's got a job?

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Is he a legal job?

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes, he's a notary for a while. And then in 1511, he takes part in the conquest of Cuba, which was organized by Diego Velazquez, who then becomes the governor of Cuba.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Dar Aubrey]

Initially, Velazquez is very impressed by him. He becomes his secretary. That's when Cortes starts to rise to prominence.

[Greg Jenner]

And then in 1518, Velasquez gave him another promotion. And this one is an expedition promotion. I want you to go and explore. Conquer.

[Dar Aubrey]

Well, explore and trade was the orders.

[Greg Jenner]

Exploring, trade. Can you go and trade, please? And where is he going?

[Dar Aubrey]

He's off to the Yucatan. There are two expeditions before Cortes's expedition, and that's where they find out about this great city called Tenochtitlan and Moctezuma and lots of treasure and things. This obviously piques Cortes's interest. So despite the fact that there are other candidates who would be more experienced, Velasquez gives him the job to go on the next expedition. So this is the third time.

[Jen Brister]

Third. Third. Third time. And he's like, I've got a good feeling for you, Cortez.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes, yes. Now Velasquez starts to hear rumors that Cortez has plans that don't involve him. And so at the last minute, Velasquez says, no, I don't want Cortez anymore. However, Cortez kind of sticks his fingers in his ears and goes, la, la, la, la, la.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Dar Aubrey]

And he evades arrest about four times, I think. And then finally, yes, basically, finally sets.

[Greg Jenner]

Off in 1519, and he founds Veracruz, the first Spanish town in Mexico. He immediately divorces Velasquez from his sort of chain of command. Right. He's just like, I founded a town, and I am. I answer to the Spanish king, and Velasquez is dead to me, and everything's fine.

[Jen Brister]

So how.

[Dar Aubrey]

War.

[Jen Brister]

But what about.

[Dar Aubrey]

He's not coming back. So much so that he burns the boats so that no one can die.

[Greg Jenner]

No way. Okay. All right. So his men are like, I wanted.

[Jen Brister]

To go back just to get feedback.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I actually left my wife and children back there, actually.

[Dar Aubrey]

So it's, like, tough. No, you're not going back.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dar Aubrey]

We know all about this from his first letter, essentially.

[Greg Jenner]

It's an amazing letter. It's not even a letter. It's like a rant.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes. So he knows, essentially, that in the meantime, Velasquez will have obviously written to the king and said, look, there's this complete wrong un who's gone, you know, rogue. He's off. I don't even know what he's doing. And so Cortez knows all of this. He doesn't even make it a letter from him. He makes it a letter from the town council of Veracruz that he's founded. That he has founded. And essentially, it's an insane letter, but he essentially discredits Velasquez. And then talks about how great he is, how he. Oh, I put all of my fortune into this every step of the way. I've done everything by the book. I've converted everyone to Christianity.

[Greg Jenner]

Tiny bit of trivial that's completely unrelated to the history, but I love it. Is that the actor who voiced Cortez in the Road to El Dorado Animation also was the voice of Winnie the Pooh.

[Jen Brister]

And so, I mean, that is upsetting.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh whenever Cortez speaks. Of course, Winnie the Pooh craves pots of honey. Cortez is after pots of money. So he's off. He's off seeking golden glory. 15, 19. And he is going to meet Melinticen. Finally we get our meet cute. Except it's not a meet cute. It's a meat. Yuck. Because she is enslaved and he is arriving as a conqueror.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes, yes. So Malinsian is one of 20 girls. I guess she's only 19. Given to the Spanish conquistadors by the Maya as a kind of diplomatic gesture. Right, She's a present initially. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dar Aubrey]

We're not sure at what point it becomes clear that she has really useful linguistic abilities.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, so how does the translation work then? You know, if Cortes wants to say something to the Maia, so she could.

[Dar Aubrey]

Speak Maya and Nahuatl. So Cortez would speak to a guy called Hieronymo the Aguilar, and he would then speak Maya to Milinsin, and then she would speak Nahuatl to any Aztecs.

[Greg Jenner]

Ooh.

[Dar Aubrey]

So it's like a chain backwards if the other way around as well.

[Jen Brister]

Does it with the old whispers. Hang on a sec. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Brister]

But then she's got quite a lot of power because then she can translate anything in any which way she can. Like. Oh, yeah, he said this, did he?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dar Aubrey]

We think she learned Spanish quite quickly. And actually Aguilar, he becomes almost obsolete quite early on. Not only can she tell people what he wants to say and vice versa, but she also understands the etiquette, which is incredibly different.

[Jen Brister]

So she understands the etiquette of the Spanish and she also understands the etiquette of the Mayan. Is it the Mayan people?

[Dar Aubrey]

The other Nahua people?

[Jen Brister]

The other Nahua people.

[Dar Aubrey]

Right, the Maya too. But it's the Nahua people that are more. That are in that part, more kind of important to the conquest bit.

[Greg Jenner]

And Cortes is presumably using charm and violence, those two lovely Combina, you know.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah. Essentially, he learns quite early on that the Aztec Empire isn't as solid as he thought it was. And he also learns that there are certain groups who aren't happy with the Aztecs. He gets the Totonacs on side initially by capturing an Aztec tax collector. Now the most important allies that he picks up are the Tlaxcalans. They hate the Aztecs. Absolutely hate the Aztecs.

[Jen Brister]

I feel like the Spanish have arrived. There's not that many of them. No, they seem very annoying. They're going around telling people what to do. Oh, you can do that and I'll do that. And it's like, why don't they. The Tottenacs and the Mayans and everybody that get together and go, let's just kill these Spanish guys because they are a pain in the butt. And they keep talking about some guy called Jesus. I don't know who he is. What do you say? I mean, it seems like they. Somebody missed a trick very early on.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah, well, the Tlaxcalans, at one point, it seems like the Tlaxcalans might actually finish them off. The Spanish really have to think about their tactics in order to not be killed, basically.

[Greg Jenner]

So we have to conquer Tenochtitlan. We're not going to do it. Cortes is going to do it. A vast, vast citadel, an incredibly sophisticated, huge city. And 600 Spaniards show up and some allies.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah, with about 2,000.

[Greg Jenner]

So about two and a half thousand people show up on the doors of this fast imperial citadel and they just, what, ring the doorbell and say, hello, we've come to conquer you.

[Dar Aubrey]

So along the way, obviously, Moctezuma has heard about this. He. He has people all over his empire who can kind of go back.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's the attack emperor.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes. We call it the Tlatwani is the. The real word, which means he who speaks. But we tend to call him the Emperor. He has spies that have told him about all of this, that they're these weird guys.

[Jen Brister]

Is he not like, we gotta do something about these guys.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah, well, they set traps for them, which were intercepted by the Tashcallens, by Malinsin. They found out about things that were.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Cortes is about to step on various booby traps. Yeah, don't step on that. Don't eat that. No, that's. That's not a fruit. That's a grenade.

[Dar Aubrey]

Montezuma also sends people out with gifts and things. Chocolate.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah, great. Chocolate, Montezuma.

[Dar Aubrey]

But also gold, which is not so in Aztec terms. That's basically a show of power. And it would have sent the message of, back off. I've got all of this power. But obviously, yeah, to Cortez, he's like, Cortez. He's like, oh, these guys love us.

[Greg Jenner]

They're giving us gold. This is great.

[Jen Brister]

Bing dong.

[Greg Jenner]

And so we know that Moctezuma meets Cortez.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

On a cause. And then suddenly the city falls. I mean, that's very truncated, but like, yes.

[Dar Aubrey]

Moctezuma invites them into the city. So his idea, and he's been painted very badly for this, but there's a few reasons why he does this. For a start, once they're in the city, they're at their mercy. They're their hosts, basically. So they can control them to a certain extent. Their weapons don't work quite as well either in the confines of the city. But also, Moctezuma would have been thinking, well, we can't have a battle kind of outside of the city because if it looks like we're losing, everyone else is going to join.

[Jen Brister]

It's going to pile on. Oh, right.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got to control the narrative.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes. So they first meet. It's November, so definitely by April, So they're there for ages.

[Greg Jenner]

So November 15, 19, six months later.

[Dar Aubrey]

So definitely by then, but probably sooner. Cortez basically kidnaps Moctezuma and they have this very strange thing where Moctuzuma's pretending that everything's fine because if he lets on, his people will essentially get rid of him and get the next Aztec emperor.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, have they not noticed there's something going on?

[Dar Aubrey]

Yes, well, he pretends they're just, like, at leisure together. It's very weird. This weird situation where he's got hold of Moctezuma, gets. It comes to an end because Cortez hears that Velazquez has finally got his together.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, I forgot about him.

[Dar Aubrey]

And sent a massive army to arrest Cortez. So in I think it's May, May of 1520, basically, Cortes hears he has to race off to the Gulf Coast. He manages to convince those guys to join him.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Dar Aubrey]

He is very persuasive, this guy.

[Jen Brister]

He's a charmer.

[Greg Jenner]

He is a charmer.

[Dar Aubrey]

In the meantime, he leaves a guy called Pedro de Alvarado in charge. And we don't know if he does hear these rumors or not, but his version of events is that he hears rumors that the Aztecs are going to attack them. So they engage in a massive massacre, basically.

[Greg Jenner]

And so Moctezuma appears on a terrace to convince his people to sort of calm down and then somehow he dies.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

So I'm sure his people killed him.

[Dar Aubrey]

People aren't very happy with him, obviously. Actually, Milinton also goes on the terrace and tries to convey these messages. The conquistador's version of events is that he is hit with a slingshot and later dies of his wounds. However, the indigenous version of events is that he gets stabbed basically by Cortez because he's no longer of any use, basically.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's the end of Montezuma. Cortes is now in control. I think we can say it's quite.

[Jen Brister]

Interesting because I didn't know and this makes a lot of sense that the Spanish had allies amongst other indigenous communities or people. I just assumed that all of the Aztecs were murdered by the conquistadors, like the Spanish, but they actually, they actually got help.

[Greg Jenner]

Cortez then continues and Mexico is conquered by Spain and it becomes part of the Spanish Empire and sends home all the silver and gold back to Spain. So that's sort of the, the conquest story. And then Milinsen at this point has kind of done her job. So she could, could she not just go, all right, job done, thanks very much, I'm off?

[Dar Aubrey]

She's so important that she becomes part of the con, the conversion effort as well, to begin with. And she also is involved in other missions that Cortez goes on, like to Honduras, for example. So she's. Yeah, she continues to be his right hand woman.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, they have a kid together, don't they?

[Dar Aubrey]

They do. We have no idea obviously how consensual that was, but they have, they have a child called Martine.

[Greg Jenner]

The interesting thing about Milinton is that sword where the story ends. She dies quite young. She dies in 1529 when she's only. She's barely 30. Yeah, if that. So that's quite sad. And that's where we leave her.

[Dar Aubrey]

In the story, Martine gets sent to Spain and actually lives with the Spanish nobility, Spanish royalty.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dar Aubrey]

So he. And Cortez formally recognizes him as his son as well.

[Jen Brister]

Do we know how she died or.

[Dar Aubrey]

I think she just kind of succumbed in the end. Got one of the many diseases that the Europeans so kindly brought over.

[Jen Brister]

And she was so young, you know, from. It's like she really only in that whole period was around for a decade and within that decade she had such a huge influence. And I think when you also, when you're a young woman and you've got literally no agency, you grab it where you can. Don't You.

[Greg Jenner]

You do.

[Jen Brister]

How does history view her? Do historians view her kindly?

[Dar Aubrey]

Not so much, no. She. Well, historians, it depends on. So essentially we have the big great, great. I'm putting quotation marks around that historian of the Conquest who's a Victorian, and the Victorians have a lot to answer for in terms of history being written. Called William Prescott. He is the biggest Cortez fanboy. He is obsessed with Cortez. He does say she's important, but he also sexualizes her quite a lot and talks about basically that her linguistic skills also included the language of love.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, where's he getting that from?

[Dar Aubrey]

He's just.

[Jen Brister]

There's absolutely no evidence of that at all. Yeah. So for a long time, Cortes was viewed favorably for many centuries and would.

[Greg Jenner]

Have been lauded and applauded. This brings us to my next question, actually, Amy, because for so long, Cortes has been on the run from the Spanish authorities. You know, people have been sending armies after him. But he finally conquers Mexico, which means presumably he gets to go to the king of Spain. Hello, this is yours because of me. So do you want to let me off and give me a job? I mean, does he get reward?

[Dar Aubrey]

So. Yes, he does. He initially. He becomes the governor of what they call New Spain, which is what Mexico is called initially. Yeah, he does get rewarded. He also makes sure to have his letters published very quickly. So they're all. I think there's five of them, and they're all published by 1525, just so his legacy is secure. He gets made governor of Mexico, but it doesn't.

[Greg Jenner]

He's too hot headed, isn't he? He can't just settle for something and go, this is fine, this is enough.

[Dar Aubrey]

No, he.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, what does he do?

[Dar Aubrey]

Well, he gets too big for his boots, basically.

[Jen Brister]

He's been too big for his boots for about two decades.

[Greg Jenner]

So, yeah. So the king appoints an investigator, Ponce de Leon, to come after him. Strips him of his governorship in 1526.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah. So Ponte de Leon dies quite soon after he arrives. The second guy who is sent to investigate him also dies within like eight months.

[Jen Brister]

What are they dying from?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, well, I think they're dying from Cortez, probably.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

We don't know.

[Dar Aubrey]

I mean, some people have said it might have been Cortez, but we're not. We're not 100% sure about that, but yeah. In 1528, Cortes goes back to Spain to talk to the king. He's well received. He's even given a title. He's removed from being the governor of New Spain. But he's given. He's made the Marquess of the Valley of Oaxaca.

[Jen Brister]

All of them in. In this entire historical.

[Greg Jenner]

Jen, you're holding your eyes like you've got a migraine.

[Jen Brister]

Absolutely appalling. Human beings. Despite us knowing all of this, Cortez is a hero.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, I mean, not now. He's constantly investigated, isn't he? They're constantly trying to investigate him for murder, for embezzlement, for not following orders. He is ruthless. He is avaricious. Even the Spanish think that, but he gets away with it. How does he die in the end? Does Moctezuma get his revenge, as the famous idiom would have it?

[Dar Aubrey]

Well, so he dies of, we think, pleurisy, but just before that, he has a really bad case of dysentery.

[Greg Jenner]

Good.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, what a way to go.

[Dar Aubrey]

Yeah, it sounds like death and, you know, couldn't have happened to a nice guy.

[Jen Brister]

Nice guy, truly.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so pleurisy is probably what killed him, but dysentery probably didn't help. Okay, so there you go, Jen Hernandez and Cortez and Melinsin. It's quite the story, isn't is?

[Jen Brister]

Quite the story. It's quite a sad story. It's tragic. There's no part of it that isn't. He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in history. I would say he's a truly awful human being. And sure, Melinson by proxy, you could say. Yeah. But, you know, she was no saint either, and that is absolutely true. But the power dynamic there was so, you know, you can't compare the two. You're looking at a young girl who was ins, enslaved and was trying to survive. And she wasn't to know how it was going to turn out, you know, that it was going to end up being some sort of genocidal mania. And then this Cortez guy was just, like, total narcissist, psychopath.

[Dar Aubrey]

Good guy.

[Greg Jenner]

Good guy.

[Jen Brister]

Good guy.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance window. Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Jen and I machete our way through the jungle for two minutes while Amy tells us something we need to know about Milinsin. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Doctor. Amy.

[Dar Aubrey]

So, sadly, after Mexico gained its independence From Spain in 1821, Malinsin's public reputation went downhill. There was a desire to reclaim the history of the nation from the colonizer and to explain how the conquest happened. But unfortunately, this led to her becoming a scapegoat she's often referred to as the Mexic Eve, a traitor and a whore who betrayed her people despite the fact that she wasn't Aztec, nor did she have much agency of her own. Weirdly, the hundreds of thousands of indigenous allies do not get blamed. They're presented as being tricked by Cortez into fighting against Moctezuma the tyrant, yet she is not awarded the same dispensation. However, as depressing as all that is, let's reflect on how she was viewed by her contemporaries, largely because it's quite annoying for Cortez and his fanboys. So not only did the other conquistadors testify that she was absolutely fundamental to the conquest, so much so that they could not have achieved their victory without her, but the Tlaxcalans, in their pictorial sources, present her in every scene that Cortez features, even in amongst the fighting, like a real badass. And sometimes she's even depicted as bigger than him, basically insinuating that she was more important than him. And in fact, because she was always in Cortez's company, the indigenous people they spoke to referred to Cortes as the captain of Marina or Malinche. This not only demonstrates her importance to the native allies, but even better, it effectively demoted Cortez because he was named in terms of his relationship with her.

[Jen Brister]

I actually am Team Malinson. Sure didn't turn out great in the long term, but I think she did what she had to do to survive.

[Greg Jenner]

Listener, if you're bursting for more barista, check out our episode on Emma of Normandy with all the elf Givous. For more Mexican history or famous interpreters, you can do the Aztecs episode, series one, the Sacagawea episode, or the Colombian Exchange episode, which is about Columbus and after that fact. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends, subscribe to your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, and also make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the amazing Dr. Amy Fuller from Nottingham Trent University. Thank you, Amy.

[Dar Aubrey]

Thanks for having me. It was great fun.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, what a delight. I've really enjoyed it and thank you, Amy. I've learned a lot.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we translate another overlooked historical story. But for now I'm off to write a long letter to the King of Spain, blaming someone else for all of my failures. Bye from BBC Radio 4, this is what Seriously. I'm Dar Aubrey.

[Dar Aubrey]

And I'm Izzy Suttee.

[Greg Jenner]

And in our new series, we're bringing.

[Dar Aubrey]

You short stories and tall tales.

[Greg Jenner]

What Seriously is packed with real life strange but true stories that make you go what Seriously? And provide you with excellent social ammo to impress your friends.

[Dar Aubrey]

The twist is we don't know how each story unfolds and we'll have to figure it out one fragment at a time with our special guests, who each have a mysterious connection to the tale.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right, I am your spy expert.

[Dar Aubrey]

And I don't really want to bring you back to the real facts of.

[Greg Jenner]

The story because you're making me laugh so much, but I feel like I should.

[Dar Aubrey]

We're the only country in the world that eats the animal on our crest.

[Greg Jenner]

Like, and I never know whether to feel terrible or brilliant about that.

[Jen Brister]

All these engineers trying desperately to reduce the amount of dust in space and.

[Dar Aubrey]

You get Izzy taking up a balloon full of glycemic. Wow. You're welcome.

[Jen Brister]

Shove that one on the house with all the stuff. I know, right? It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something. But now I have.

[Greg Jenner]

Join us for what seriously from BBC Radio 4, available now on BBC Sounds.

[Jen Brister]

Oh.

[Mel Gedroich]

Oh, hi. I'm Mel Gedroich and I'm going to be your host on where there's a.

[Greg Jenner]

Winner, There's a wake.

[Dar Aubrey]

There's a wake.

[Mel Gedroich]

So each week I'm going to be meeting with a different deceased celeb guest to discuss how they died, what they want for their funeral, and perhaps most importantly, why I should be unlocking the pearly gates for them. You'll laugh, you probably won't cry, but bloody hell, you'll be entertained. Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.