History of Broadway (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me: History of Broadway (Radio Edit) Release Date: December 20, 2024
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests:

• Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins
  Associate Professor in Popular Music and Director of the Black Studies Department at the University of Nottingham.
• Desiree Burch
  Comedian, actor, writer, known for appearances on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World of the Horn Section, and Netflix’s Too Hot to Handle.

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Introduction to Broadway

[01:45] Greg Jenner:
Welcomes listeners to "You're Dead to Me," a BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Introduces the episode focused on the "History of Broadway," highlighting the collaboration between comedy and historical insights.

What Defines a Broadway Musical?

[04:33] Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins:
Defines a Broadway musical as a blend of singing, drama, and spectacle, incorporating elements like exciting sets, costumes, and lighting. Emphasizes the hybrid nature of musicals, combining various genres to tell a story uniquely.

“The singing uses different storytelling and also kind of a different vocal style than we might expect if we're listening to popular music.” – Dr. Robbins [05:37]

[05:37] Desirée Burch:
Shares her passion for theater, stressing the importance of acting and singing in musicals. Critiques productions lacking in these areas, highlighting moments when musicals fail to engage.

“It feels like it needs to be singing, then acting and then movement.” – Desirée Burch [03:08]

The Early Days of Broadway

[07:14] Greg Jenner:
Explores the origins of Broadway, referencing early forms like vaudeville and minstrel shows. Questions whether these genres are synonymous.

[06:18] Dr. Robbins:
Clarifies the distinctions:

• Vaudeville: A variety show with sketches, songs, comedy, and dance, typically held in venues that sold alcohol, allowing patrons to "tap in and out."
• Burlesque: Initially a satirical form of entertainment in the 19th century, later incorporating striptease.
• Minstrel Shows: Performances involving white actors in blackface presenting racist comedy skits and songs.

“Vaudeville was lots of often sketches... tap in and out of the entertainment while it was taking place.” – Dr. Robbins [06:18]

The Rise of Broadway Musicals

[07:31] Desirée Burch:
Mentions the 1902 production of "The Wizard of Oz," noting its unconventional nature due to the absence of a traditional musical score.

“Some music, but not a score.” – Dr. Robbins [07:32]

[08:22] Desiree Burch:
Points out the replacement of Toto with Imogen the cow in the 1902 production, illustrating early adaptations.

“They changed Toto the Dog to Imogen the cow.” – Greg Jenner [08:22]

[09:30] Greg Jenner:
Highlights "In Dahomey" (1903), one of the first black-authored musicals, emphasizing its significance in both American and British theaters.

[10:27] Greg Jenner:
Transitions to the impact of Hollywood’s advent on Broadway, particularly the introduction of "talkies" in 1927 with "The Jazz Singer."

[10:58] Desiree Burch:
Connects the rise of sound films to a decline in Broadway theater attendance, as audiences preferred the new, cheaper cinematic experience.

“You could go for a much cheaper ticket to go and listen to songs, listen to dialogue. You don't need to go to the theatre.” – Greg Jenner [10:58]

The Golden Age of Broadway

[12:00] Greg Jenner:
Discusses the resurgence of Broadway in the 1940s and 1950s, dubbed the "Golden Age." Highlights the influential duo Rodgers and Hammerstein.

“Oklahoma” becomes an overnight sensation, blending plot, songs, dance, and music seamlessly. Ran over 2,000 performances, a significant increase from previous decades. – Dr. Robbins [12:18]

[13:24] Desirée Burch:
Describes the uplifting nature of "Oklahoma," reflecting America's wartime optimism.

“It's like America's great guys. Remember?” – Greg Jenner [13:24]

Technological Advancements and Their Impact

[14:52] Greg Jenner:
Explores the evolution of sound in musicals, from operatically trained performers pre-1960s to the gradual introduction of microphones and amplification.

“They are standing at the front of the stage singing to the audience, even though you're talking to someone else.” – Greg Jenner [15:05]

The Mega Musical Era

[16:08] Dr. Robbins:
Analyzes the 1970s as a pivotal decade when Broadway transitioned from popular music to a more commercial, spectacle-driven art form.

“Musical theater ceases to be the popular music. It becomes old-fashioned in comparison to what's happening both in popular music and in film.” – Dr. Robbins [16:08]

[17:24] Greg Jenner:
Mentions the ambitious but flawed production "Via Galactica" (1972), which attempted to mimic zero gravity with actors on trampolines, highlighting the challenges of innovation in Broadway.

“All of their actors bouncing on trampolines for the entire musical.” – Dr. Robbins [17:29]

[18:56] Dr. Robbins:
Credits Andrew Lloyd Webber for popularizing the mega musical, standardizing production elements to create destination performances like "The Phantom of the Opera," which can be replicated globally.

“These musicals become destination performances. You go to Broadway to see the Phantom of the Opera on Broadway.” – Dr. Robbins [18:56]

[20:06] Desiree Burch:
Expresses fascination with the spectacle of mega musicals, envisioning large ensembles, impressive stunts, and high production values.

“It's so weird that we had a British person come in to do that, because it's a very American thing.” – Desirée Burch [20:02]

Contemporary Broadway and Diversification

[21:11] Dr. Robbins:
Discusses the recent resurgence of musicals, driven by Disney adaptations and the enduring popularity of jukebox musicals. Highlights the diversity brought by shows like "Spring Awakening," "The Book of Mormon," and "Hamilton," which blend traditional elements with modern themes and music styles.

“Hamilton takes us kind of full circle as a musical that not only transcends the social, political context of musicals, but also goes back into popular music.” – Dr. Robbins [23:22]

[22:53] Greg Jenner:
Emphasizes the cyclical nature of Broadway, referencing the continuous influence of "The Wizard of Oz" throughout musical history.

“Wicked is a great example of taking what was an adult book and pitching it for teenagers.” – Dr. Robbins [22:53]

[24:15] Desiree Burch:
Remarks on "Hamilton" reaching number one on the Billboard rap chart, illustrating its groundbreaking fusion of musical styles.

“Hamilton becomes the first cast album to reach number one on the Billboard rap chart.” – Dr. Robbins [24:15]

The Nuance Window: Structural Elements of Musicals

[25:06] Dr. Robbins:
Explores the structural techniques musicals use to convey plot and character swiftly, such as:

• Spotlights and costume cues to highlight main characters.
• Dance sequences to depict dreams or introspections.
• Type-specific songs like “I Want” songs or love duets.
• Establishing numbers to set the scene and plot without detailed exposition.

She also notes the challenge of maintaining creative originality while adhering to these conventions, which can sometimes lead to the perpetuation of stereotypes or limited staging imagination.

“The creative efforts of lots of people over decades... can become invisible in this product that we think is a very simple thing to make.” – Dr. Robbins [25:06]

[27:26] Desiree Burch:
Reflects on the metaphorical implications of these structural elements, comparing the efficiency and cutbacks in musicals to broader societal and capitalist practices. Highlights the underlying nepotism and economic pressures that influence creative decisions.

“It's a really great metaphor for how we could sort of do life in capitalism.” – Desirée Burch [27:26]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[28:15] Greg Jenner:
Encourages listeners to explore more episodes related to musical history, such as those on Paul Robeson, Josephine Baker, and the Harlem Renaissance.

[24:20] Desiree Burch:
Expresses newfound appreciation for Broadway’s complexities and the role of jukebox musicals in sustaining the commercial practice of musical theater.

“Thank you so much for teaching me about stuff that I now miss because I didn't understand it the first time.” – Desirée Burch [24:20]

[25:06] Dr. Robbins:
Highlights the accessibility and broad appeal of musicals, thanks to their efficient storytelling and emotional resonance, while cautioning about the creative limitations imposed by established structural vocabularies.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins:
  “Musicals rely on communicating plot and character really quickly, so they work in shortcuts... This makes musicals really exceptional, accessible to a broad audience.” – [25:06]

• Desirée Burch:
  “Please remember me to Herald Square, particularly that Macy's. This has been amazing.” – [24:20]

• Greg Jenner:
  “There's nothing new under the sun. Often on this show, we're always like, yeah, history. We've done it before.” – [24:43]

Key Takeaways

• Evolution of Broadway: From early vaudeville and minstrel shows to the integrated musicals of Rodgers and Hammerstein, Broadway has continually evolved, influenced by technological advancements and cultural shifts.

• Impact of Technology: The introduction of sound in films challenged Broadway's popularity, but the subsequent golden age saw musicals become more sophisticated and integrated, leading to the mega musical phenomenon.

• Diversity and Modernization: Contemporary Broadway embraces a wide range of styles and narratives, from Disney adaptations to groundbreaking works like "Hamilton," reflecting broader social and cultural dynamics.

• Structural Mastery: Musicals are adept at conveying complex stories and emotions efficiently, using a combination of music, dance, and visual cues to engage diverse audiences.

• Commercialization vs. Creativity: The balance between commercially successful productions and critically acclaimed, less commercial works remains a central tension in Broadway's landscape.

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For More Episodes:

• Paul Robeson
• Josephine Baker
• Pythagoras
• The Harlem Renaissance

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Thank you to our guests: Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins and Desiree Burch for their invaluable insights into the history of Broadway.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[BBC Sounds]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and.

[Greg Jenner]

Welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are collecting our costumes and cancanning into the chorus line as we learn all about the history of Broadway. And to help us we have two very special theatrical stars in History Corner. They're an Associate professor in Popular music and the Director of the Black Studies Department at the University of Nottingham. They're an expert on musical theatre and research race and gender identity in popular culture. They've published on everything from the wizard of Oz to Hamilton and my favourite Frozen. No, you let it go it's Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins. Welcome. Hello.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Thank you for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in comedy corner, she needs no introduction on this show, but I do still have to do one. So she's a comedian, actor, writer. You'll have seen her on all the telly Taskmaster Frankie Boyle's New World of the Horn section TV show Netflix is too hot to handle. And you'll know her from our many, many episodes of this very podcast, including recent highlights the Colombian Exchange and Pythagoras. It's your Dead to me's leading lady, Desiree Burch. Welcome back, Desiree.

[Desiree Burch]

What a dude. You said you had to do one. Do I get to host the podcast now?

[Greg Jenner]

I think you've done enough episodes now.

[Desiree Burch]

That maybe I'm learning my British slang. I'm doing well. Guys, is this under the test?

[Greg Jenner]

Are you a fan of musical theatre? Do you go to Broadway when you may be back home and to the West End? Okay, are we about to hear something?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

No.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, look, I love theater. I love seeing incredible acting. For me, it is always about the acting above everything else. Musical theater, it really does need to be, for the most part, singing first if you're going to enjoy it. It feels like it needs to be singing, then acting and then movement. And I wish it were two and one were inverted. Although I've seen musicals on Broadway where they couldn't sing or act, and I was just like, well, what are we doing here? Except for a jukebox revival. But, yeah, I mean, every so often, it is done really well. But there's always a point in a musical where you're like, I get it. Fall in love like I want. I need to catch a train. Like, make it end.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And we've all watched a musical, haven't we? Whether it's a classic like west side Story or My Fair Lady. A Lloyd Webber wonderpiece like Phantom of the Opera, a modern smash like Wicked or Hamilton. Most of us have seen a stage musical at some point. Plus there are the film adaptations as well. Katherine C. Jones in Chicago, you might have swooned over Hugh Jackman in Les Mis. What about the history of the mega popular art form that we call Broadway? How have Broadway shows changed over the years? And just who was Imogen the cow? Let's find out. But I'm gonna start with the basic question. What is a Broadway musical?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

So, like, for me, I guess a musical is a combination of singing and drama and spectacle. Sometimes there'll be lots of exciting sets, sometimes there'll be costumes, sometimes there'll be amazing lighting, you know, lots of additional theatre craft. But I think particularly going backwards, it's this really interesting, like, hybrid of influences smushed into one performance form. And I guess the way to tell if you're engaging with a musical is that the singing uses different storytelling and also kind of a different vocal style than we might expect if we're listening to popular music. The mashup of genres and the emphasis of, like, communicating the content of a song, rather than communicating through song, which is opera, are the clues that we're listening to a track from a musical and not a song from something else. The commercial theatre district in Manhattan sort of runs roughly between 42nd and 46th and 7th Avenue. So it's kind of a hotchpotch of different theatres, but it's also places where you can eat. So they built a lot of theatres sort of at the end of the 1800s, 1880s, but by the time we hit the early 1900s, we've got about 30 theatres.

[Greg Jenner]

Is the West End just Broadway, but in London, or is that a different thing?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Oh, controversial. We look at Broadway as kind of the geographic home and the spiritual home of the musical, even though it's actually genuinely a global phenomenon at this point and belongs to lots of places. But the thing that I think we can't debate is that it's originally an American art form. There is a little bit of that creeping into the discourse at the moment that musicals are not American. And that's one of those that I won't stand for.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, touchdown. Moment. Okay. This American theatrical tradition, there are words I want to chuck at you. Vaudeville, burlesque theatre, musical minstrel shows. Are those all the same thing?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Vaudeville was lots of often sketches. It could be songs, it might be comedy, it might be dance sequences. But one of the sort of defining factors of vaudeville is that it took place in places that sold alcohol. And so you could tap in and out of the entertainment while it was taking place.

[Greg Jenner]

Quite literally. Tap in and out?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yeah, Pun. Burlesque is interesting because in the 19th century, it was actually more of a satire form. It was. The striptease component actually comes in much later alongside this, minstrelsy sort of solidifies itself. Mid-1800s, has a sort of a peak and a trough and then another peak and a trough in the early 20th century. That is a performance form that generally involved white men or white presenting Men wearing black makeup and doing comedy skits and songs. Comedy and inverted commas there, but based on racist principles.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's get to 1902, when Broadway gets going, I think Desiree. And one of the first productions was the wizard of Oz. Nice. Quite an unusual musical. Do you know why?

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, there's so many versions of it that I've seen the Wiz and Wicked and all these other versions of that. What's weird about it?

[Greg Jenner]

No songs.

[Desiree Burch]

Okay. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

No music. I mean, or some music, but not a score.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

So. Some music, but not a score. So this is like an interesting example of a work deliberately blending lots of different things together. So this was kind of burlesque, it was pantomime, as we would understand it in the uk. And also, like, lots of fantasy elements were immersed into this version of the wizard of Oz. But in terms of the score, what happened, and this still happens in musicals, lots of people aren't aware, is that there were optional songs and you could switch them in and out.

[Desiree Burch]

It's a real comedy set where you're like, they're not warm enough for that one yet. Let's take that one out and do.

[Greg Jenner]

A couple of things. We won't do that bit.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, kind of. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

The production also changed a couple of other things about the wizard of Oz, Desiree. They changed a major cat character from the book and the later film. Do you want to guess which character did not appear in 1902's Dorothy? That'd be amazing. It's just some bloke called Rob. Hello.

[Desiree Burch]

And they were like, let's get a gal in there. We need to sell these tickets.

[Greg Jenner]

No. Toto the Dog was replaced by Imogen the cow.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, there we go.

[Greg Jenner]

There we go. Let's talk about the development of increased visibility of these black performers. You said minstrel C. Obviously racist and unfortunate, problematic history. But it created perhaps a culture whereby black performers could get work.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the things that we don't necessarily know so much about the early days of Broadway is that there were lots of black creatives writing work, producing work, touring work at sort of the turn of the 20th century. So we're talking the early 1900s. Perhaps the most famous example of that is the musical In Dahomey, which was a musical mainly set in Florida. It was written by two African American performers who were already an established double act called Williams and Walker. It's a particularly famous one because it was very successful in America and it had a big touring life. But it also came to The UK and was one of the first times that a black authored production, particularly a black authored musical, had been played in lots of London and British theaters.

[Greg Jenner]

Because this is 1903. This is really early.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yes, it's 1903, so it's really early.

[Desiree Burch]

Were black people able to see this in segregated places or who was witnessing?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

So there's a balance of the two, I think Into Homey is complicated because it does have elements of minstrelsy in it. There were no white performers, all of the cast were black. But there were black actors using blackface and using anti black stereotypes that were derived from minstrelsy. That formed kind of the first two halves. The sort of smash hit musical people like to turn to, which is Shuffle along, which opened in 1921. And shuffle along changed the game because it ran for an extraordinary amount of performances for the time around 500 performances. The audiences flocking in were so excited to see it that they actually had to make. I think it's 63rd Street, a one way thoroughfare because it was impossible for the police to manage the traffic of its time.

[Greg Jenner]

They blocked traffic. We've got to fly through the 20th century, so best way to deal with it. In the 1920s there was a new entertainment phenomenon that showed up. Desiree, what happened in Hollywood in 1927 that had a major impact on Broadway?

[Desiree Burch]

All I can think of is racism and then Technicolor. There's definitely something in my.

[Greg Jenner]

There's a third thing in the middle.

[Desiree Burch]

In the middle to triangulate that what happened in the actual sound like. Cause that's it. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got the coming of the talkies.

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And it's the Jazz Singer which is the first talkie. Which actually really brings us back to Broadway, doesn't it? It's a musical. And this hurt the popularity of theater simply because I gu was offering a brand new experience. Right. You could go for a much cheaper ticket to go and listen to songs, listen to dialogue. You don't need to go to the theatre.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Initially there was some concern. Some people were actually frightened of the talkies and the notion of people being able to speak through the screen. So the initial peak wasn't as extreme as we might have expected. But after that, the number of new theatre productions of all kinds drops across America. And this does coincide as important to say with the Great Depression. But so you have a sort of a decline from maybe 200 new productions a season to somewhere near new productions a season. It's important to say that Broadway was perhaps One of the less hard hit industries during the Great Depression, but there was a significant drop off. And that's also one of the reasons that musicals become, in lots of ways, the popular music, because shows lived or died by covers of songs from musicals becoming the popular music.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So the 1940s is where American. The American economy is sort of supercharged by World War II. And by the 50s, you obviously, it becomes the kind of dominant superpower. And that's also where we get the golden age inverted commas of the Broadway musical. Desiree, do you know who the famous writing duo were who kind of dominated that decade?

[Desiree Burch]

Is it Rodgers and Hammerstein?

[Greg Jenner]

It is, yeah. Very good. Yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

One of the bits of Rogers and Hammerstein's story that gets missed is that they were already influential figures in Broadway by the time they came together. And they come together to produce this musical no one's ever heard of, called Oklahoma. And this is 1943. And Oklahoma becomes this overnight sensation. After Shuffle along and Showboat, it's the next sort of major landmark. It expanded the sort of creative understanding of what a musical could be because it combined plot, songs, dance and music sort of seamlessly. It's what's sometimes referred to as an integrated musical, which, as a critical race scholar, I think is hilarious, actually refers to the dramatic elements of the show. Oklahoma. Ran for about 2,000 performances, so over five years. When you consider that the longest running musical in the 1930s ran for about 500 performances. That gives you a sense of the impact.

[Greg Jenner]

And Oklahoma. I mean, 43, middle of the war, America, you know, it's sort of feel good.

[Desiree Burch]

It's like America's great guys. Remember?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Oh, what a beautiful morning. Yeah. This is where we're getting the characters singing their feelings.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yeah, a little bit. It's about the songs needing to progress the plot in some way or give us a sense of place, or they become about expressions of internal thought and feeling. Oklahoma is really deemed to be the first example where you can't just chop and change songs. They're really significant to where they fall.

[Greg Jenner]

They're driving the actual plot.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Absolutely.

[Greg Jenner]

I want song or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

The softness we might have expected in the 40s and 30s comes in musicals in the 50s. Once the form is a little bit more settled and Rodgers and Hammerstein are, you know, this dominant force. But at the same time, you have things like Guys and Dolls, which opens in 1950. You have west side Story. West side Story was actually overshadowed by the music man that's recently been on Broadway and right up To Fiddler on the Roof, which is the first musical to pass 3,000 performances. So if you think in the 20s we're overwhelmed by something that runs 400 performances, by the sort of mid-60s we're at 3,000 performances. Phantom of the Opera has run 14,000 performances, surely.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And My Fair lady is another one to shout out. Which is Lerner and Low, isn't it? So we've got. We've got other double acts coming in, we've got other creative teams. West side Story is Bernstein and Sondheim, who are both giants.

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about the actual sound being made because we get the arrival of microphones and amplification. But prior to the mics, how are these performers getting through a two hour show and hitting the back rows with their vocal techniques?

[Desiree Burch]

And how many shows a week are they able to. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

So I mean, we are in the sort of five to seven shows a week. Amplification comes into musicals really slowly. So they are starting to dabble with it. Towards the end of the 1930s, the beginning of Oklahoma, oh, what a Beautiful Morning. The person singing off stage is actually using a microphone in 1943.

[Greg Jenner]

Interesting.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

But there aren't mics on stage. If we listen to musical theatre performers, really from the pre 60s, we are listening to a much rounder, broader sound in general. Often we're listening to operatically trained performers or a balance of singers. We also have techniques which I'm sure you'll be aware of. Dasira of cheating Front. So you don't actually look at a performer because the directionality of where your voice is going is really important.

[Greg Jenner]

So you're standing at the front of the stage singing to the audience, even though you're talking to yourself, colleague on stage who stood to your side in the 60s. Firstly, we get electrified instruments, so guitars and drums. But that also means that kids are listening to rock and roll now. They don't want to go to the theatre, they want to listen to the Stones. So does the theatre change again?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yeah, the 60s is kind of a watershed. Musical theater ceases to be the popular music. It becomes old fashioned in comparison to what's happening both in popular music and in film. Part of this is sort of triggered by Elvis Presley's film musicals and his transition from his sort of more clean identity into his rock star figures. But there are also shortcomings, I guess, to what this leads to. Not everybody was able to write a successful rock musical because actually lots of rock songs were not intended to tell stories. Jesus Christ Superstar is an Outlier in someone doing it very successfully. Early. And hair would be another.

[Greg Jenner]

There are some duds, Hannah. Oh, yeah, Nice.

[Desiree Burch]

I want to hear about these duds.

[Greg Jenner]

If I say to you 1972's classic Via Galactica.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, my gosh, that sounds amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you think happens in that?

[Desiree Burch]

I'm Via Galactic. I don't know. It sounds like space lasers. And, you know, I mean, because I'm trying hard not to think of things that were a thing like Xanadu, which is just. Or is it. Or is Xanadu one of them? No, I'm thinking of Starlight Express. That's all on roller skates. Yeah. What else could it be on? All on snowboards or something. Like with laser guns.

[Greg Jenner]

You're doing really good, Hannah. Do you want to tell Desiree what the technology was?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Well, so they wanted to mimic zero gravity.

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

So all of.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yes. All of their actors bouncing on trampolines for the entire musical.

[Greg Jenner]

Bring it back. That's what I say.

[Desiree Burch]

It's not really anti gravity. It's like very gravity.

[Greg Jenner]

You can really feel the gravity. Like, bang, bang. Yeah. Saying that. I would love to. If anyone would like to produce the Van Halen musical, Jump with me. I know where to get some trampolines. Let's do. The 1970s was a time of a bit of crisis in New York. It's not great. So there were sort of big campaigns to try and get New York up and running again, bring Broadway back. But also, you then get the arrival of Andrew Lloyd Webber and the mega musical. What do you think of as a mega musical in your head?

[Desiree Burch]

I just imagine a lot of people and I guess a chandelier crashing. I mean, a lot of people and spectacle. I mean, in my head, musicals are pretty mega. Like, as far as my modern understanding of them, it's like, oh, someone's getting hoisted up and, like, you know, someone's flying out over the audience. Or you've gotta have, like, something like that.

[Greg Jenner]

So one of stunts.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, stunts. And, like, huge, you know, and an entire army of people coming onto stage. Or like a helicopter lands in before the act break.

[Greg Jenner]

So obviously, you've got Lemiz Missigon, Starlight Express, Cats. We get Lloyd Webber coming in and fixing the show. Nothing changes. You can perform it a thousand times in every city in the world. It's never going to be different.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

The seeds of this are sown in the 70s with grease and Chicago and the Rocky Horror show and the Wiz and A Chorus Line, which is another sort of massive Hit. But what Lloyd Webber does is he combines technology, a score, musical choices, lighting, production components all together to create a product that could be recreated in lots of different spaces. And what that means is that these musicals, specifically mega musicals, become destination performances. You go to. To Broadway to see the Phantom of the Opera on Broadway. It allows considerable special effects. So we have extensive revolving stages and extra complicated folding scenery, like in Les Mis. We have a helicopter seeming to land in the middle of a scene in Miss Saigon. And the standardization is really important because it means that if you've seen one of these shows, in theory, in one place in the world, and you go to see it somewhere else, you actually know what you're getting. And that was very different.

[Desiree Burch]

It's so weird that we had a British person come in to do that, because it's a very American thing.

[Greg Jenner]

It is, isn't it? It is quite an American trad. Well, I mean, I don't want to, you know, speak on behalf of.

[Desiree Burch]

But a bit to, like, standardize something, to make it highly commercial.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly.

[Desiree Burch]

He's the reason why my suburban friends fly halfway around the world, you know, once a year to be like, we're going to the Broadway to see this show.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, okay, Exactly. I mean, it's called show business.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

And I mean, ticket prices soar in this time, don't they? They.

[Desiree Burch]

He's the reason they're all 400.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

So, I mean, I wouldn't want to blame him entirely. And the reason I wouldn't want to blame him entirely is that one of the tensions in musicals the whole way through is the balance of the shows that sell an amazing amount and the shows that are critically acclaimed but don't sell a massive amount. So this is a tension, for example, between all the classics on time, shows that we know and love now that weren't particularly commercially successful when they originally opened.

[Greg Jenner]

The 90s, obviously, is where we get the Disney Corporation saying, we've got some musicals. Let's, let's.

[Desiree Burch]

We like money. Let's see what we can do here. Spectacle. You got it.

[Greg Jenner]

You got your huge hits. Beauty and the Beast and the Lion King, obviously, mega smashes again. But then, of course, you know, the 21st century, rather the millennium, brings the horrors of 9 11, of course, but also kind of a different era again. How is Broadway adapting to that 20 years ago or so?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yeah, we have this really interesting balance of excitement that the musical is kind of having a revival. The Disney animated musicals have been a massive hit. The Broadway versions have then been a massive hit we then have Moulin Rouge and Chicago that come out pretty close together in the cinema, which had massive box office success. And at the same, we also have jukebox musicals having a new resurgence. I mean, jukebox musicals have been part of musical theatre since the 1930s.

[Greg Jenner]

That's really interesting because I think people often assume they're kind of very cynical, modern cash cows for musical artists like ABBA or whatever, where you're just cashing in on your back catalogue.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yeah, they were musical, cynical cash cows when you had in house writers in a cash cow.

[Desiree Burch]

Remember Imogen?

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

It's kind of an interesting thing because if you already owned the rights to the songs from a musical you already produced, why would you not reuse them again? But what's important about that is that it brings people who are maybe not excited by what they think of as musical theatre music into musicals. But we have a real diversity of material. We have things like Spring Awakening, Le Man Miranda's first musical, in the Heights, which was a surprise success and an interesting example of theatre that was subsidized in the States, where most theatre is commercially funded. Things like the Book of Mormon and Avenue Q, pressing the boundaries of what is irreverent and what isn't. But we also have this massive wind of films that did not have musical theatre elements becoming musical. So Billy Elliot is the obvious example for the UK audience, but Legally Blonde, Mean Girls, there's a lot. The American Psycho is an interesting outlier, so there's lots of this.

[Greg Jenner]

I've never heard of that.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Groundhog Day.

[Greg Jenner]

And then obviously Wicked is a massive hit as well.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Yes, absolutely. So Wicked. I think it's fascinating that the wizard of Oz is peppered the whole way through the musical theater history.

[Greg Jenner]

I was going to say 1902. We started.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

We started in 1902. We then have the switch Technicolor, which leads to Disney then making Snow White and kicks off all of our animated musicals. We have the Wiz, which is a really significant landmark in black authored musicals post civil rights. And the film becomes really significant. And then we move forwards into Wicked. And interestingly then Andrew Lloyd Webber's reality TV shows where we hunt for Dorothy. So there is this sort of massive.

[Desiree Burch]

I miss that.

[Greg Jenner]

Not hunting her. Like that'd be amazing. Like the Running man, but with Dorothy.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

The musical theatre X Factor. Okay, but it's really interesting. But Wicked is a great example of taking what was an adult book and pitching it for teenagers. There was a definite attempt, a bit like in the 60s, to bring in new young Family audiences back in the success of the Disney musical to other musicals. So we have Wicked, which is very traditional in lots of ways. And that prefaces the success of something like Hamilton. And Hamilton takes us kind of full circle as a musical that not only transcends sort of the social, political context of musicals, but also goes back into popular music and, you know, becomes the first cast album to reach number one on the Billboard rap chart.

[Greg Jenner]

Desiree, final thoughts. You send your regards to Broadway. Have we convinced you of the joys of singing? Yes.

[Desiree Burch]

Please remember me to Herald Square, Particularly that Macy's. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for teaching me about stuff that I now miss because I didn't understand it the first time and now letting me know I can't whinge about a jukebox musical because they are basically the backbone of musicals throughout the entire commercial practice.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, there's nothing new under the sun. Often on this show, we're always like, yeah, history. We've done it before. The nuance window. Okay, well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Desiree and I enjoy our intermission ice creams. And Dr. Hannah gets two minutes on stage to sing us something we need to know. Take it away, Dr. Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Okay. Something I think we haven't covered is musicals rely on communicating plot and character really quickly, so they work in shortcuts. And because of the number of elements that most musicals contain, musical theatre creators have kind of developed a vocabulary to tell us what we need to know, simply and succinctly. So the company might pause on stage and a spotlit will appear in a contrasting colour, probably covered in sequins. The action is paused. We know that this is our main character, and we don't have to process where they fit into the story any further. On the same basis, we have things like dance sequences that reveal dreams and introspections. But in musicals from Brigadoon in the 1940s through to, like, the Lion King, choreography also covers action that's really hard to stage and chase scenes. We have types of song you mentioned earlier, the I Want song, the Love duet. And these tell us about the character's emotions and motivations. We also have these establishing numbers that explain the musical's location and their plot. And they prevent us from having to think about specifics while we're enjoying all the other things musicals have to offer. Wicked and Hamilton are really interesting examples because they begin by telling you how the story ends, and then they also introduce key characters and narrative. So we are kind of wrapped up in comfort. Five minutes in, we know who the characters are, we know what the key content is. We can just enjoy what we are consuming. All of that makes musicals really exceptional, accessible to a broad audience, and that is one of the things that musical theatre has in comparison to other art forms. It accesses all walks of life. It also means that musicals that are successful tend to be written by people who are in musicals in other parts of their career, are connected to musical theatre history, and know this vocabulary before they get into the process of writing. The complexity of this vocabulary, then, is that the amalgamation of ideas leads to musicals trading in stereotypes, and it can also allow us to have a limited imagination about how we stage things and what musicals might sound like. The challenge, I suppose then, is that the creative efforts of lots of people over decades and centuries who've made the musical what it is can become invisible in this product that we think is a very simple thing to make.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely. Thank you so much, Desiree. Any thoughts on that?

[Desiree Burch]

There's something really amazing about this because there is a microcosm for like how things could work where it's like in theater. The bottom line is that the show must go on. Everyone's gotta find the most creative, cost effective way to make the thing come together and happen. But also hearing your argument about you do need to do it quickly economically also means that the things that get cut are often some of the most sort of damaging things that we probably needed to explore in the first place. It is a really great metaphor for how we could sort of do life in capitalism. But then it does involve a lot of nepotism.

[Greg Jenner]

Listener for more musical chat with Desiree, check out our episodes on Paul Robeson, Josephine Baker and also Pythagoras because we talked briefly about, oh, it was fantastic octave stuff. For a rousing encore on Black American culture, we've got a lovely episode on the Harlem Renaissance, which I really enjoyed. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sound, so you never miss an episode, but I just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the wonderful Dr. Hannah to Risingham Robbins from the University of Nottingham. Thank you, Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we had the brilliant Desiree Burch. Thank you, Desiree.

[Desiree Burch]

Surely you should ask your listeners to leave you a musical review if they like this episode.

[Greg Jenner]

Hey, if people want to sing their reviews, I'm Open to it and to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we stage revival of another forgotten historical masterpiece. But for now, I'm off to go and perform a one man version of Frozen in my garden shed until the Disney lawyer sh.

[Desiree Burch]

Bye.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

Hello, I'm Robin Ince.

[Brian Cox]

And I'm Brian Cox.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

And this is the Infinite Monkey Hedgerow.

[Brian Cox]

He was unable to write a funny joke for the introduction. That's amazing.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

The new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage.

[Brian Cox]

Science with funny bits, Science with bits. Funny science plus bits. So the reason that the Neanderthals died out, you're claiming, is because they weren't astronomers?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, exactly. This is how we investigate cybercrime. We look for the yachts.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

The new series of the Infinite Monkey.

[Brian Cox]

Cage from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

[BBC Sounds]

Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by. And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation.

[Miranda]

It felt a really safe and welcoming space after the yoga classes. I felt amazing.

[BBC Sounds]

The situation. Soon that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker. A journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders.

[Miranda]

I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards. I have nothing.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.

[BBC Sounds]

World of Secrets is where untold stories are unveiled, failed and hidden realities are exposed. In this new series, we're confronting the dark side of the wellness industry, where the hope of a spiritual breakthrough gives way to disturbing accusations.

[Greg Jenner]

You just get sucked in so gradually and it's done so skillfully that you don't realize.

[Dr. Hannah Terisingham Robbins]

And it's like this. The secret that's there.

[Miranda]

I wanted to believe that, you know, that whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me, was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't understand.

[BBC Sounds]

Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network.

[Miranda]

I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice and for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future.

[Greg Jenner]

To bring it into the light and almost alchemize some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power.

[BBC Sounds]

World of Secrets Season 6 the Bad Guru Listen wherever you get your podcast.

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