History of Coffee (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me: History of Coffee (Radio Edit) – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 4, 2025 | Host: Greg Jenner | Guests: Professor Jonathan Morris & Sophie Duker

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Introduction

In the episode titled "History of Coffee," host Greg Jenner delves into the rich and aromatic journey of coffee, exploring its origins, cultural significance, and global impact. Joined by Professor Jonathan Morris, a renowned historian of consumption, and award-winning comedian Sophie Duker, the discussion promises both insightful historical analysis and engaging humor.

Origins of Coffee: Myth vs. History

The episode opens with the legendary tale of Kaldi, the Ethiopian goatherd who discovered coffee after noticing his goats dancing energetically after consuming the red berries from a particular shrub.

• Greg Jenner [05:00]: "Kaldi thinks, hmm, red berries. Let's see what I can do... and that is the story of how coffee is formed."

While Sophie Duker humorously attempts to recount the myth, she misses some details, prompting Greg to clarify the authentic origin story rooted in Ethiopian heritage.

Spread Through the Arab World

Professor Jonathan Morris provides a scholarly perspective on the early dissemination of coffee.

• Professor Jonathan Morris [06:02]: "The first Arabic manuscript that definitively mentions coffee dates back to around 1515, written by Al Jazari."

He explains how coffee transitioned from a local Ethiopian foraged plant to a cultivated crop in Yemen, primarily for its use among Sufi mystics to maintain alertness during night prayers.

Coffee in Europe: Cultural and Religious Impacts

As coffee made its way into the Middle East, it soon crossed into Europe, where it sparked both enthusiasm and controversy.

• Greg Jenner [07:50]: "The first definitively recognized coffee house is here in London in the 1650s."

Sophie brings humor to the discussion by referencing the humorous yet inaccurate versions of the coffee origin myth, highlighting the blend of fact and folklore in coffee's history.

The episode touches on pivotal moments such as the British Emperor Suleiman the Magnificent's fluctuating stance on coffee houses and the infamous anecdote involving Pope Clement VIII tasting coffee.

• Sophie Duker [09:24]: "Coffee as a beverage is kind of like God Squad... giving people vigor."

• Greg Jenner [09:57]: "They took him the coffee, and he said, 'This devil's drink is delicious.' They wanted to baptize it into a good Christian thing—but he never did."

Colonial Era: Plantations and Global Trade

The conversation shifts to the darker aspects of coffee's expansion, notably the establishment of plantations in the Caribbean and the exploitation of enslaved labor.

• Greg Jenner [14:25]: "By the 1780s, 80% of the world's coffee supply comes from the Caribbean... plantation coffee grown by enslaved people."

He further discusses the British takeover of Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and the environmental and human costs associated with coffee cultivation.

Coffee in America: From Colonial to Modern Times

Sophie and Greg explore how coffee became ingrained in American culture, particularly during the Civil War.

• Greg Jenner [16:02]: "The American Civil War saw the North supply their troops with ample coffee, recognizing its comforting and stimulating properties."

This section highlights how coffee consumption surged post-war, fueled by mass immigration and the rise of instant coffee during the World Wars.

The Rise of Specialty Coffee and Modern Culture

The episode culminates with the advent of specialty coffee and iconic establishments like Starbucks.

• Sophie Duker [22:08]: "Founded in 1971 in Seattle, Starbucks revolutionized how we perceive and consume coffee, introducing the idea of specialty coffees akin to fine wines."

Professor Morris provides a critical analysis of the global coffee trade's evolution, addressing past injustices and current shifts towards sustainability and equitable consumption.

• Professor Jonathan Morris [24:12]: "The global coffee industry is witnessing a renaissance, with producer countries beginning to consume their own coffee, offering a sustainable future and breaking free from colonial-era exploitation."

Conclusion: Globalization and the Future of Coffee

The episode concludes on a hopeful note, emphasizing the transformative potential of a more equitable global coffee culture. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation of coffee's complex history and its ongoing evolution in the modern world.

• Sophie Duker [27:20]: "It's quite cool to see a kind of renaissance in cultural coffee consumption and how that fits into different places."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Greg Jenner [05:00]: "Kaldi thinks, hmm, red berries. Let's see what I can do... and that is the story of how coffee is formed."

• Professor Jonathan Morris [06:02]: "The first Arabic manuscript that definitively mentions coffee dates back to around 1515, written by Al Jazari."

• Sophie Duker [09:24]: "Coffee as a beverage is kind of like God Squad... giving people vigor."

• Greg Jenner [09:57]: "They took him the coffee, and he said, 'This devil's drink is delicious.' They wanted to baptize it into a good Christian thing—but he never did."

• Greg Jenner [14:25]: "By the 1780s, 80% of the world's coffee supply comes from the Caribbean... plantation coffee grown by enslaved people."

• Sophie Duker [22:08]: "Founded in 1971 in Seattle, Starbucks revolutionized how we perceive and consume coffee, introducing the idea of specialty coffees akin to fine wines."

• Professor Jonathan Morris [24:12]: "The global coffee industry is witnessing a renaissance, with producer countries beginning to consume their own coffee, offering a sustainable future and breaking free from colonial-era exploitation."

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Final Thoughts

"History of Coffee" provides a comprehensive exploration of how a simple bean transformed into a global phenomenon, shaping societies, economies, and cultures worldwide. Through the blend of academic insight and comedic relief, listeners gain a multifaceted understanding of coffee's enduring legacy.

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For more engaging historical dives, subscribe to "You're Dead to Me" on BBC Sounds and never miss an episode that turns the pages of history into entertaining stories.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Professor Jonathan Morris]

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[Sophie Duker]

Roger.

[Professor Jonathan Morris]

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[Sophie Duker]

Coming soon.

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[Professor Jonathan Morris]

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[Nozer]

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[Listener]

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[Sophie Duker]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grinding our beans, popping on the kettle and plunging our cafetiere as we learn all about the history of coffee. And to help us get caffeinated and educated, we've invited over two very special coffee guests. In History Corner, he's a research professor in history at the University of Hertfordshire where he's a historian of consumption, especially the history of coffee. Maybe you've read his book A Global or listen to his podcast series A History of Coffee, it's Professor Jonathan Morris. Welcome, Jonathan.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you, Greg.

[Sophie Duker]

Lovely to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian and writer. You'll recognise her from loads of tv, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster. Maybe you've seen her new stand up show. But Daddy, I love her, it's fantastic. And of course you remember her from our back catalogue, including recent episodes on Naughty Nun, Benedetta Carlini and the Legend of Atlantis, it's Sophie Duka. Welcome back for a sixth appearance, Sophie. Hey.

[Listener]

I'm actually fuming because I heard that you tried to get Sabrina Connor Carpenter for this episode.

[Sophie Duker]

It was second choice. Yeah, she was busy doing the Grammys or something.

[Listener]

Yeah, I was busy watching the Grammys. So actually.

[Sophie Duker]

Key important question here, I'm relying on you. Do you drink coffee?

[Listener]

I restrict my coffee intake because I like the smell of coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

Right.

[Listener]

And I like it as a sort of cultural, a sort of a cultural concept. It makes me feel like I want to die. But I.

[Sophie Duker]

Perfect guest for the podcast.

[Listener]

But I do, I am. I'm sort of like inoculizing. That's not a word. I'm sort of Building up my tolerance to coffee. Okay. And sometimes people don't know that it causes such reaction on me. So if I'm feeling chaotic, I will occasionally order coffee. No one else knows that. It's a big moment, but it is like. It's terrible. Having a coffee is really like opening a vortex into another reality for me.

[Sophie Duker]

I don't drink coffee at all. I don't know anything about coffee. Oh. So, Jonathan, I'm assuming you're a coffee drinker.

[Greg Jenner]

I am a coffee drinker. I'm beginning to think it's also a murder rapping within the context of this studio.

[Sophie Duker]

All right. And you're gonna talk us through the history of coffee, so we're gonna learn plenty today. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject and whether you've got a crippling caffeine problem, whether you keep it decaf, whether, like Sophie, it is a dangerous thing for you, or if you're, like me, you just can't stand the bitterness. And you all know what coffee is in terms of pop culture. Coffee is just part of our life. Coffee shops crop up all over our favourite pop culture. You've got Central Perk in Friends. You've got Luke's Diner and Gilmour Girls. You've got Will Ferrell enjoying the best cup of coffee in the world in Elf Giles from Buffy, featuring in the Sexy Nest Cafe adverts from the 90s. You've got Sabrina Carpenter, already mentioned by Sophie the Espresso summertime hit. And my personal fave would be Paul Rudd ranting in Role Models about the stupidly inconsistent name of all the different coffee sizes. Venti means 20. He shouts but what about the history of coffee? How did it become the world's favourite beverage? And what do goats have to do with it? Let's find out. Right, Professor? Jonathan, there is a story. There is a sort of lovely myth that people like to talk about that the first time people got hooked on caffeine in these wild coffee plants involved an animal. Sophie, do you want to guess what the animal was and what the story was?

[Listener]

Oh, do I get any clues on the animal?

[Sophie Duker]

Sure.

[Listener]

Is it a big animal?

[Sophie Duker]

No, medium sized.

[Listener]

Okay. I feel from context clues of being in this room earlier, you said goats.

[Sophie Duker]

I did say goats.

[Listener]

And I feel it might have been a goat.

[Sophie Duker]

It is a goat. So tell me the story. Recount for me this fabled myth.

[Listener]

Okay, so there's like a goat. There's just a guy he's just a guy, but he's also a goat. And he lives on a farm. There's a farmer who's called Guy. He has a goat. And then he realizes that his goat is acting like really unconventionally, it's an old goat, but he's acting more like a kid. You know, he's got a spring in his step.

[Greg Jenner]

I think Sophie should be writing the origin myth from now on. It's definitely an improvement. The real origin myth is just real origin myth. It's not real. It's really about the goatherd guy called Kaldi. And he sees his goats and they're dancing away.

[Listener]

I see.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's thinking, what's going on? And he's seeing that they're eating these red berries and then they're starting to dance. Kaldi thinks, hmm, red berries. Let's see what I can do. Takes a few berries on himself, throws some very good moves, decides to take these back, goes to the kind of scholar in his local village, and the guy tries them, doesn't like them, throws them on the fire. Somehow or other smells that smell that you really liked, and says, oh, we should take these, grind them down, make a coffee beverage with it. And that is the story.

[Listener]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Of how coffee is formed.

[Sophie Duker]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

It's an Ethiopian heritage. It's really from the sort of the southwest of Ethiopia.

[Sophie Duker]

That's our kind of mythic origins. But what about an actual historical referen? Jonathan, have we got something that we can say? This is the first mention of coffee.

[Greg Jenner]

I think what we can best say is we've got the first Arabic manuscript that mentions coffee that we can definitively say mentions coffee. And that's written in about 1515, written by a guy with a very long name that ends in Al Jazari. It concentrates and tells his version of the story of coffee. And in it he highlights that another sort of Sufi mystic, a man called Al Dubani, said that the Sufis should bring over coffee to Yemen from Ethiopia to consume in place of cat, which was in short supply, because this would enable them to sort of stay awake and go into their trance like state while they were carrying out their nightly devotions. So that seems to be the most viable option, as it were, for what we can say is the sort of the earliest clear use of coffee in that way. And what we can say is probably that the. Obviously the indigenous people in southwest Ethiopia, in Kaffir in particularly, probably using coffee for a variety of things, but foraging the coffee, not growing it.

[Sophie Duker]

Ethiopia to Yemen, crosses across The Straits and into Yemen. So we're into the Arab world from Yemen. Do we get it? Then spreading out through those sort of trade routes out through the Middle East.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Essentially, coffee kind of circulates through the Middle east, up the Red Sea. That kind of diaspora, really. The kind of sort of Islamic diaspora around there. The big next stage is, in a sense, at a certain point, the Yemenis start growing the coffee themselves.

[Sophie Duker]

Sure.

[Greg Jenner]

And that's quite a big transformation. So what we can also definitively say is they are the first to cultivate coffee as opposed to forage coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

Gotcha. And so it spreads through trade routes. So you've got Mecca, Jeddah, Medina, Cairo, these big, big cities in the Islamic world. At what point do people go, but it tastes nice, and I love something, but could I just drink it? When has it become a beverage?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So probably relatively quickly in the 1500s. The big question here, and why this is so important in Islam, is coffee intoxicating? Cause if it is, you shouldn't be drinking it.

[Sophie Duker]

Right, okay.

[Greg Jenner]

But if it is not intoxicating, then you could start drinking it. And if you could start drinking it, well, of course, then you're gonna start socializing around it. And this moves into the creation of the coffee house, et cetera. So it begins to become, at that point, a social drink. It's used a lot by students, for example. What a change that might be. But students in the 15th century, how would that work?

[Sophie Duker]

Yes, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Gosh.

[Sophie Duker]

And it's Suleiman the Magnificent. He closes down the coffeehouses in Istanbul and Aleppo and Damascus. And yet somehow, as you say, the coffee house culture starts to thrive.

[Greg Jenner]

The Ottomans basically sort of take over influence in the peninsula. We can kind of trace the way that the coffee house moves up through Aleppo, Damascus, and eventually arrives into Istanbul. And Suleiman at first is very WELCOMING, and then 10 years later, he wants them all closed. The reason seems to be about, if you like, the fear of what might be going on in the coffee houses. The stated reason. Well, this is all a bit dubious. There might be things being consumed there that aren't actually coffee. There are things that he thinks or articulate are wrong with coffee houses. And then there's the underlying assumption that we have that is Suleiman worried that people might be going around saying he's not so magnificent.

[Sophie Duker]

Okay. How do you think the Pope. Pope Clement viii, where do you think he stood on the moral question of coffee in the 1600s?

[Listener]

I feel like maybe he was pro.

[Sophie Duker]

Mm.

[Listener]

Because I feel like coffee as a beverage Is kind of like God Squad. It's very like. I think it gives you fervor more diligent as well. And I think as like, an alternative to maybe, like, alcohol, maybe it's like a relatively new thing in Europe that could give people vim and vigor.

[Greg Jenner]

So the story goes that they took him the coffee, and he sort of sips it and says, this devil's drink's delicious. We gotta cheat the bevel. We're gonna baptize it. We're gonna make it a good Christian thing.

[Listener]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Except he never did.

[Listener]

He never did.

[Sophie Duker]

That's a shame, though. Cause the line, this devil's drink is delicious is a really good line. Stick that on a T shirt.

[Listener]

I feel like Clooney could really.

[Sophie Duker]

Yeah, Exactly. By the 1600s, I think we find coffee in Europe.

[Greg Jenner]

We know in Venice, which obviously was a port city. You'd have a lot of sort of Turkish merchants in there. One of them died in Venice in about 1575.

[Sophie Duker]

He was murdered, right?

[Greg Jenner]

He was murdered, yeah.

[Sophie Duker]

He didn't just die, he was killed.

[Greg Jenner]

So they had an investigation. So obviously had to go and look at his stuff. And in it, they found little coffee cups. So we kind of deduced from that that coffee was beginning to be drunk in Venice, at least by those sort of, you know, expatriate merchants. From that, then we begin to hear things about coffee being used as a medicine. So you could be prescribed coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

Sophie, would you take a prescription of coffee? It doesn't sound like you would do any good.

[Listener]

I feel like it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't do good stuff for me. But not medicinally, but functionally, to like the medicine. To get you through your essay Crisis.

[Sophie Duker]

We've seen in the Ottoman world that the idea of the coffee house could be seditious and dangerous. But also there would be intellectual activity there. People gathering, discussing, debating political ideas. Does the same thing happen in Europe?

[Greg Jenner]

This is Britain's greatest contribution to coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

In my personal view, because once you kind of really go into it, actually, the date suggests that the first thing that is definitively a coffee house, that is a place that you go, get served coffee, sit around, drink it, have a chat. Is here in London in 1652-54. Because we have a guy called Pascara Rose who sets this up. There are people who talk about coffee houses being present in Italy. But when you look at those, they look more like places that sell coffee beans. So Pascra Rose comes over. He is recruited by a local businessman here. Comes over as his Manservant then opens his coffee house under his patronage near St. Michael's Church in Cornhill, just by the bank of England. And with two years, he's actually got a proper coffee house. As you can imagine, there are different kinds of coffee houses for different kinds of people. But a lot of the coffee houses become places where people are transacting, as it were, some form of business. I'm going to mention Jonathan's because, after all, I should. Yes, and Jonathan' is really the sort of the origin of the London Stock Exchange, traders meeting their trading bonds, et cetera. But then you get other ones where you kind of bring together, you know, your clientele comes together and they're a very particular kind. So you would have people who were interested in science, as in science, as was understood then, some natural philosophy at the time. Yeah, exactly. Who come together to debate things. You would get people who are interested in politics, who come together to debate politics. One of the origins of the ballot box is supposed to be that, you know, a ballot box was invented for holding debates in coffee houses because you then have to go around and get everyone to vote. So you get them to throw their ballot into a box. Oh, really? Yeah, absolutely.

[Sophie Duker]

We need to talk about the darker side of this coffee boom. You know, where do these things originate from? By the 1600s and definitely the 1700s, we're getting coffee plantations.

[Greg Jenner]

So really by the. It's at the very end of the 1600s, the 1700s, really. So what has happened is that the Ottom and have really kind of controlled the trade in coffee. It's all done through the port of Al Makkah, or what we call mocha.

[Sophie Duker]

Ah.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really? So, yeah, absolutely. And they're very careful to try and protect that and make it a monopoly. Eventually, the Dutch manage to get hold of some coffee which they find actually growing in India. They take it to Indonesia. They plant it on the island of Java originally. So that's the first time that coffee is really grown outside of its sort of indigenous areas. Then also the French get hold of it, the other European powers. And the place that they then take it, the French take it to the Isle of Bourbon, which is now Reunion off Africa. But really the big place is the Caribbean.

[Sophie Duker]

Sure.

[Greg Jenner]

They go to the Caribbean, plant coffee in a variety of places. The Dutch plant it on Suriname. The French plant it in what was then their colony called Saint Domingue, which becomes Haiti.

[Sophie Duker]

So by the 1780s, 80% of the world's coffee supply comes from the Caribbean.

[Greg Jenner]

Just to make this absolutely explicit, that is plantation coffee grown by enslaved people.

[Sophie Duker]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's the key thing.

[Sophie Duker]

Right. Okay, so where does Britain muscle in to this history?

[Greg Jenner]

So the Brits, they're sort of one period, but they really get into coffee is when they take over the island of Ceylon, now Sri Lanka, from the Dutch. Yeah. They go into Ceylon and they overthrow. Actually, there's an area called the Kingdom of Kandy. It's kind of indigenous sort of areas rule in the. They then kind of clear down the forests and want to sort of introduce production. And what they think is the ideal crop is coffee. It's pretty destructive process. So they kill off a lot of the wildlife. They kill off 60% of the Ceylon's elephants.

[Sophie Duker]

Oh, no, no.

[Greg Jenner]

Really bad. They also bring over to work this. A lot of workers from Tamil Nadu, Tamils from India on a kind of, you know, indentured labor type schemes. I think the easiest way to say these people are not well treated. Lots of them die. I mean, this is totally new territory for them. They're marched all the way up into the highlands. So it is not a great scenario.

[Sophie Duker]

So this is 1815, this deforestation and plantation.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sophie Duker]

Okay, so we've had some pretty horrible history there. We've had. Let's try and be a little cheerier. Hey, Sophie, when do you think America fell in love with their cup of Joe? The usa. Oh, what do you think their kind of inciting mom is where they go, hang on a second. We're coffee drinkers.

[Listener]

I feel like maybe the late 1900s.

[Sophie Duker]

Oh, you've gone late.

[Listener]

No, the late. No the late 19th century.

[Sophie Duker]

You've gone. Okay, so you're like 1880 something.

[Listener]

Yeah, that's what I've. That's 1880 is what came into my head. It's too late, isn't it?

[Sophie Duker]

It is quite late. Yeah. I think we can go early.

[Listener]

Okay, fine.

[Sophie Duker]

If I say to you Boston Tea Party.

[Listener]

No.

[Sophie Duker]

You just reject that outright.

[Listener]

No, the early 17th century.

[Sophie Duker]

So you've gone too early now, I think. Maybe. Or maybe you haven't. Jonathan, the Boston Tea Party is obviously in the 1770s. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So actually, no, in one sense, I think Sophie's right both times, which is quite an achievement in that she put two centuries in there because, you know. Yeah. There's coffee in America being sold in America. I mean, there's the first person that's licensed to sell coffee, somebody called Dorothy Jones, and that's in 1670. So, I mean, it's in colonial America.

[Sophie Duker]

Well done, Sophie.

[Greg Jenner]

You can take the point.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

What does really kick off. Coffee in the States, I think, is really two events. One key one is the Civil War. And the Civil War, if you like, there is almost an explanation of the Civil War that goes. One side has coffee and the other doesn't. And the side that has coffee, which is actually the north, win because they give their troops coffee, enough coffee to probably serve maybe even 10 cups of coffee a day. But they recognise that, you know, the generals recognise coffee is kind of comforting, it's warm, it's very easy to do.

[Sophie Duker]

And it's a stimulant.

[Greg Jenner]

And it's a stimulant. And that kind of creates a class of people who then want to drink coffee thereafter. And then at the same time. And this goes back to your point about the 1880s, right. That's the point of, obviously, mass immigration into America from Europe. So getting coffee is kind of a proof of arriving in America and having made America. Do you see what I mean?

[Sophie Duker]

Yeah. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

It's an aspirational thing. In Europe, you get to America, you can probably drink coffee because the coffee is more easily obtained.

[Sophie Duker]

And you've. So the American Civil War is in the 1860s, obviously, and we've. I mean, this extraordinary thing. Soldiers diaries mention the word coffee more than the word bullet or rifle. We also have a soldier called Lieutenant Colonel. Well, Lieutenant Colonel Walter King, he's a soldier in Missouri Cavalry Regiment, who designs a rifle which has got an inbuilt coffee grinder.

[Listener]

Aww.

[Sophie Duker]

We also get, Jonathan, at this time, customers buying loose green coffee beans. They're roasting them at home. So you can now make coffee at home. When do coffee granules show up? When is it, you know, something that comes in a little pack, you spoon it out and you stir it in the bottom of the cup.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So there are attempts at doing this sort of, you know, soluble coffees from about the 1900s, and indeed some of them are developed the First World War. We see the American soldiers get some sort of supposedly instant coffee. But actually what we understand as instant coffee is really a product more of the Second World War. Just before then we see the invention of, as it were, Nescafe, or the creation of Nescafe, which is really the first of those sort of instant brands. And that sort of. Then ironically, is brought back into Europe by the Americans because the work has to be done over in the States, because it can't be done in Europe, because it's in the middle of conflict. They bring it back on their backpacks, essentially. And so this becomes then sort of the Takeoff of instant coffee after the Second World War becomes part of the range of the big American roasters in America, but it actually becomes really big in Europe, particularly in those sort of non traditional coffee drinking countries like the uk.

[Sophie Duker]

Interesting.

[Listener]

I have a question.

[Sophie Duker]

Yeah, go for it.

[Listener]

Was there like a. Was there or does there emerge a sort of gendered narrative about coffee, about women not drinking coffee because they'll get. Get nervous or shaky or start trying to get the vote?

[Greg Jenner]

It's actually been that narrative for some time, actually right back to the introduction of coffee in Britain. I mean, it's very much a male thing. Coffee is the male drink, tea is the female drink, et cetera. And then there's a, you know, the whole thing about women really not being in coffee houses at that time. But I think also the interesting thing with these kind of, you know, the use of advertising is another way around where people write ads that are basically about, are you a good enough wife? Do you know how to make your husband's coffee? Just right.

[Sophie Duker]

By the late 19th century, the Americans are getting their coffee from South America. Now Brazil becomes a huge coffee producing nation, doesn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Brazil becomes the dominant coffee producer in the late 19th century and it still is the largest coffee producer in the world. Sao Paulo. And the Paulistas, the coffee barons of Sao Paulo, become so powerful that actually when the Portuguese, well, when Brazilians imperial family, which is an offspute of the Portuguese royal family, too complicated to get into. But when they get thrown out, it's these Paulistas who really take over the running of the country.

[Sophie Duker]

So the coffee barons take over the country.

[Greg Jenner]

The coffee barons take over the country. Help the coffee grow. It's got. Help the country grow its coffee to the point that, well, the key date is perhaps by 1906, 1906, they produce over 80, 85% of the world's coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

The world's coffee.

[Greg Jenner]

The world's coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

And I have to say, 70% of that 85% then gets shipped into the States, which is the world's big coffee market. So that's the way that it works.

[Sophie Duker]

And by the 1920s, Colombia, Central American countries, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Guatemala are.

[Greg Jenner]

Also are also beginning to get into this.

[Sophie Duker]

And the world starts to become familiar to us. Now, the coffee, the label, names in our packets, we start to go, hang on, yeah, I know that. And we also get the rise of Robusta. Robusta is a different species.

[Greg Jenner]

So robusta is a different species and it is somewhat more tolerant. It gets replanted in Asia and it gets replanted in those new, particularly West African states. And as a result of that, you know, Africa again becomes quite a powerful producer of coffee from about the 1970s.

[Sophie Duker]

Okay. Yeah. So Both West Africa and East Africa, where it originated in the first beginning of our episode. Okay, so we're into the 20th century and then by 1971, we get it, a major moment in global history, globalization history. We get the founding of which coffee shop in Seattle, Sophie?

[Listener]

In Seattle. It's going to be Starbucks.

[Sophie Duker]

It is Starbucks. And this is important, I suppose, for economic reasons, for corporate reasons, but also just the sort of taste reasons in terms of the idea of speciality coffees. The idea of coffee is something you can enjoy almost like you can enjoy red wine.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things to say about the original Starbucks is actually the original Starbucks just sells coffee beans. And what it's doing is selling a whole different sets of varieties of coffee beans. So what it's saying is, it's not just coffee. There are all these different kind of coffees, they have all these different kinds of flavors and processes, et cetera, and you should pick one that you like. And it's this sort of speciality coffee idea is that this is therefore not ordinary coffee. It's not the stuff that you're getting in the supermarket, but it's something quite distinctive.

[Sophie Duker]

So there we go. Sophie, we've done a lot of latte history. We've gone around the world. We've seen coffee was religious, medical, political, colonial, cultural, industrial. Does it change your view of. Are you more tempted to go out and drink a coffee now, or are you less tempted?

[Listener]

I think it feels like I want to be in on the party. I felt sort of maybe like a psychosomatic reaction to talking about coffee so long. Like, I feel quite hyped up. Like it's not been a relaxing chat.

[Sophie Duker]

Sorry.

[Listener]

Because I think even hearing it, I'm like, maybe it's. My associations with coffee have been mainly as a sort of wonder drug to finish an essay and less about the sort of salon culture. Yeah.

[Sophie Duker]

We've heard a lot today about people getting together and being together and socialising, chatting, communing. It's.

[Listener]

Yeah, I think maybe like I'm trying to think about what the modern equivalent is or what the young upstart is. And I feel like it's probably either like, bubble tea or creams, milkshakes. And that's where. That's the hotbed of political dissent today, the nuance window.

[Sophie Duker]

This is where Sophie and I Sit silently and sip our mochas for two minutes while Professor Jonathan tells us something we need to know about the history of coffee. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Jonathan.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, well, I'm going to start with the risen old farmer who has proudly showed us around his beautiful coffee red cherries drying on the patio outside his house in the province of Lampung in Sumatra. And so I asked him who he's going to sell those to, and he said, no one. Those are the best quality. I'm keeping them for myself. And I can't tell you how much that answer made me happy and move me because the coffee trade has long continued to reproduce the structures of its colonial past. A crop that indigenous peoples were forced to cultivate by foreign fiat that was often tended by unfree labour, enabling the price to consumers in, as it were, the global north to be kept low at the expense of producers in the global South. Unsurprisingly, then, very few producer countries adopted coffee drinking into their own culture. The coffee trade has long continued to reproduce the structures of its colonial past. A crop that indigenous peoples were forced to cultivate by foreign fiat and that was often tended by unfree labour, enabling the price to consumers in the global north to be kept low at the expense of producers in the global South. Unsurprisingly, few producer countries adopted coffee drinking into their culture. Post independence, many former colonies continued to actively prevent coffee being consumed within the country in order to garner precious foreign exchange reserves. It's still not unusual to meet farmers who have never tasted any form of coffee, let alone sampled their own coffee. When I first began my research into coffee in the early 2000s, the trade appeared to be in somewhat of an existential crisis. For four consecutive years, the benchmark price for commodity coffee was below that of the cost of production, leading literally to starvation among families that depended upon it for their livelihood. The price collapse was caused by an excess of global production over demand, particularly as Brazil and Vietnam upped their output and sought to undercut their competitors. Paradoxically, this coincided with the explosion of the modern coffee shop format, exemplified by Starbucks. Today the picture looks very different. Prices are at their highest since the 1970s. While some of that is due to the impact of climate volatility on supply, an underpinning factor is the growth of demand in new markets, including that of producer countries themselves. Asia is driving this, with more coffee shops per capita in Seoul than in Seattle. China has increased its green coffee imports by 50% in the last five years, much of it from Vietnam, while Indonesia itself now consumes 40% of its coffee. The transnational culture of coffee consumption that has taken off offers both a sustainable future for the global coffee industry and a way out of those colonial hangos of the past.

[Sophie Duker]

Wonderful. Thank you. Sophie, any thoughts on that?

[Listener]

That was very. I mean, I like that there's like a sort of glimmer of hope or like a kind of, like, retaking of the coffee narrative from. Yeah, those producer countries just sort of being entirely beholden to the whims of the global North. So, yeah, I was just like, okay, I'm canceling the beans. The beans are canceled. But I think it's quite cool. And it's quite cool to see, like, a kind of renaissance in cultural coffee consumption and how that fits into different places.

[Sophie Duker]

Okay, listener, if you want to double down on Duca, you can check out our episodes on Benedetta, Carlini, Ashanti, Ghana, The Chevalier de St. Georges, if you want some musical history. And for more foodie historical stuff, we have episodes on the history of chocolate, on the history of ice cream, and on celebrity chef Alexis Soyer, which is one of my favorite episodes. That's a very fun one. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear the episodes one month before other platforms. Lucky you. Make sure also to have your notifications switched on so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the coffee historian himself, Professor Jonathan Morris from the University of Hertfordshire. Thank you, Jonathan.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you, Greg. And enjoy your coffee.

[Sophie Duker]

I will. I will give it my best. And in Comedy Corner, we have the ever sensational Sophie Duker. Thank you, Sophie.

[Listener]

Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Sophie Duker]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we savor another historical delight. But for now, I'm off to try and convince the Pope to sanction my debilitating hot chocolate habit. Bye.

[Kiri Pritchard Maclean]

Best Medicine. Dissecting funny and fascinating medicine.

[Listener]

I think pain management is the best medicine.

[Greg Jenner]

Bibliotherapy Therapy by Books.

[Listener]

Sleep well.

[Kiri Pritchard Maclean]

Spot the comedian celebrating medicine's past, present and future.

[Sophie Duker]

I think transplantation is the best medicine because.

[Greg Jenner]

Because it can completely change someone's life.

[Sophie Duker]

Defibrillation.

[Kiri Pritchard Maclean]

Oh, defibrillators. Okay. Amazing machines. That much is clear. Sorry, Clear. That's the new series of Best medicine from Radio 4 with me, Kiri Pritchard Maclean, available now on BBC Sounds.

[Greg Jenner]

She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue and beauty.

[Narrator]

One of the 20th century's most amazing Char, a Hollywood sex symbol whose story you might think you already know.

[Greg Jenner]

Hedy Lamarr, the film star.

[Narrator]

But there's another side to her story. She was an inventor at heart.

[Greg Jenner]

Her scientific contribution no other star has been able to match.

[Sophie Duker]

We really should put her into the limelight she deserves.

[Narrator]

From the BBC World Service Untold Legends Hedy Lamarr Listen now, wherever you get your BBC Podcast Podcasts.

[Nozer]

Ever wondered what you would do if you found yourself lost in the wild? In the desert, the jungle or the mountains? Would you make the right choices to stay alive? Introducing Real Survival Stories, a new podcast from Noiser. Each week, we'll bring you astonishing tales of ordinary people thrust into extraordinary situations.

[Professor Jonathan Morris]

How the heck am I going to get out of here? Am I going to be a pile of bones in the Australian outback? Or am I going to make it out?

[Nozer]

Out Real Survival Stories, available now wherever you get your shows.