History of the Telephone: 150th anniversary special

Summary

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You're Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)

Episode: History of the Telephone – 150th Anniversary Special

Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Prof. Johan Morris (Victorian science historian), Katherine Bond (comedian)
Date: March 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

To celebrate its 150th episode, "You're Dead to Me" dials back 150 years to investigate the quirky, contested, and world-changing early history of the telephone. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Prof. Johan Morris—an expert in Victorian science—and comedian Katherine Bond. They blend rigorous history, playful asides, and witty banter to explore the technology, scandals, inventions, and cultural impact of the telephone, from the first transatlantic cables to the dawn of “Hello Girls.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pre-Telephone Communication

[03:10–07:03]

• Before telephones, long-distance communication featured:
  • Telegraphy (needle and Morse code)
  • Fire beacons and semaphores (for signaling over distances)
  • Carrier pigeons
  • Hand-delivered mail

"I mean, really, information travels essentially as fast as you can."
—Prof. Johan Morris [06:14]

• The telegraph’s invention (Wheatstone & Cook in the UK, Samuel Morse in the US) revolutionized business, government, and news, but information’s transfer still fundamentally depended on physical travel until these devices appeared.

2. The Race to Invent the Telephone

[11:21–19:33]

• Alexander Graham Bell: Born in Edinburgh (British, not English!), came from a family focused on speech and elocution (his mother and wife, Mabel, were deaf).
• Antonio Meucci: Italian inventor of the "teletrophone," first submitted a patent caveat in 1871 but was too poor to maintain it.
• Elisha Gray: American rival, patented the "harmonic telegraph" and "sound telegraph," but was narrowly beaten by Bell on patent paperwork timing.

“It’s really close... Bell and Gray file on the same day, but Bell is awarded the patent.”
—Greg Jenner [21:04]

• Katherine quips: “The lesson here is that boys should learn to work together… but they decided to make it a competition, as they must.” [23:55]

Notable Patent Moment:

• Gray and Bell file almost simultaneously; Gray arrived first (with a caveat), but Bell’s full patent gets priority—an iconic historical legal near-miss.

3. How Early Telephones Worked

[21:43–23:37]

• Based on Faraday’s induction: magnets and coils convert sound into electrical current, which is then reconverted at the other end—a very early form of microphone and speaker technology.
• Technical reliability was limited (crackly, buzzy, muffled), and people were “simultaneously bedazzled and unimpressed” by the first demonstrations. [25:25]

4. The First Telephone Calls and Early Adoption

[24:10–26:56]

• First telephone call: Bell to Watson in the next room: “Mr. Watson, come here. I want you.” [24:38]

  • “That is romantic. We finally got to yearning.” —Katherine Bond [25:01]

• Market skepticism: Western Union turned down Bell’s offer to buy the patent for $100,000, now considered a business blunder of the century [27:14].

• Bell spins out on his own, founding what becomes AT&T, and embarks on promotional “showmanship” tours with music and live demos.

5. Building the Telephone Network

[27:34–31:07]

• Growth required new infrastructure—could piggyback partly on telegraph systems but needed major investment for routing calls to homes/businesses.
• Bell, with support from his wealthy father-in-law Gardiner Hubbard, took the show on the road, even roping his wife into a promotional UK tour (doubling as their honeymoon).

“If I’m Mabel, I’m like, are you kidding me? What the hell?” —Katherine Bond [30:40]

• The British Post Office, which had already nationalized the telegraph, became an early adopter/distributor for telephone service.

6. Technical & Social Glitches: Crossed Wires, Party Lines, & Eavesdropping

[34:05–37:57]

• Technical issues:
  • “Crossed wires”: signals literally got mixed up when physical lines touched; led to misdirected or overheard conversations.
  • Poor audio quality (buzz, static).
  • Shared “party lines”: multiple households on one line, anyone could listen in—fuel for gossip, detective stories, and Agatha Christie novels.

“Bring it back. Are you joking? Bring it back. That’s fantastic.” —Katherine Bond, on party lines [35:09]

7. Switchboards & “Hello Girls”—Women Enter the Workforce

[36:35–43:12]

• The switchboard (1878) allowed calls to be connected manually; as networks grew, “telephone girls” became essential infrastructure.

• Women replaced rowdy young men as operators—the myth being that women were “docile” and “well-mannered.”

  • In reality, the job delivered independent income and professional status for many young women—a quiet force for women’s emancipation.
  • “Hello girls” became the iconic term for female switchboard operators.

• Social concerns arose: late hours, propriety, the risk of “inappropriate” contact with male callers, and complaints about long hair covering ears.

  • “Love that. The solution then, as it is now, is like maybe the women should stay home rather than the men not being awful.” —Katherine Bond [44:05]

8. Etiquette Panics & Anxieties Over Change

[43:33–47:27]

• Victorians (and Edwardians) obsessed over:
  • Whether women could commit “adultery” via phone
  • Men phoning women while sitting down!
  • Pajama-wearing
  • Lower-class “harassing” upper class
  • Fears of phone gossip disrupting business & society

“The panic is always that we’ll reveal our true selves to be ourselves. … They might actually have the opportunity to relax or to be intimate.”
—Katherine Bond [47:27]

9. The Origin of “Hello” and Bell’s Preferred Greeting

[40:47–43:13]

• “Hello” as a greeting was championed by Thomas Edison (not Bell, who wanted “Ahoy-hoy”).
• Hello was practical, clear, and easy to hear over a noisy line.
• In the UK, “hello” was originally an expression of surprise rather than greeting; telephone culture made it universal.

10. Exponential Growth & Nationalization

[48:12–49:02]

• By 1902: 81,000 payphones in the USA; one phone per 200 people in Chicago by 1882.
• UK telephone system nationalized in 1912, under the Liberal government—reflecting recognition of communication as vital infrastructure.

11. The Victorian “Future” – Telectroscope

Nuance Window: [51:15–53:54]

• Victorians fantasized about the “telectroscope”—a device to transmit images as well as sound (precursor to video calls/Zoom).
• This revealed how they saw the future as technological, optimistic, and reachable—a key shift in modern historical consciousness.

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Select Notable Quotes

On the simultaneous invention:

“Gray arrived first at the patent office, but what he submitted was a patent caveat. … An hour or so later, Bell … submitted the full thing.” —Prof. Johan Morris [19:38]

On Bell’s showmanship:

“He’s Elon Musking.” —Greg Jenner, on Bell’s hype-before-product tactics [28:29]

On social railway lines and party lines:

“Who needs podcasts? I’m just listening in to the neighbors.”
—Greg Jenner [35:24]

“Bring it back. … That’s fantastic. Why would anyone … Does anyone ever get off the phone? I’d be like, bring my meals to me.”
—Katherine Bond [35:15]

On employment for women:

“This is an important new kind of employment for middle class young women.”
—Prof. Johan Morris [38:12]

On communication etiquette panic:

“The panic is always that we’ll reveal our true selves to be ourselves. … They might actually have the opportunity to relax or to be intimate without being policed by society.”
—Katherine Bond [47:27]

On gendered workplace rules:

“There are plenty of concerns that were raised by this new technology arriving into people’s homes … Did people fear that women might commit adultery from home with the new technology of the phone?”
—Greg Jenner [45:35]

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [03:10] – Life before the telephone: pigeons, semaphores, telegraphy
• [11:21] – Introduction to Alexander Graham Bell & his rivals
• [19:33] – The Bell/Gray patent race
• [21:43] – How early phones worked
• [24:38] – First telephone call: “Mr. Watson, come here, I want you.”
• [27:14] – Western Union turns down Bell’s patent ($100,000 offer)
• [29:10] – Setting up the first telephone networks; the move to homes/businesses
• [34:05] – Technical faults, party lines, crossed wires
• [36:35] – The switchboard and role of the “Hello Girls”
• [40:44] – The rise of “hello” as the telephone greeting
• [43:33] – Social etiquette panics about the phone
• [48:12] – Exponential growth of the phone, nationalization in UK [49:02]
• [51:15] – Nuance Window: The ‘telectroscope’ and Victorian visions of the future

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Conclusion/Takeaways

• The invention of the telephone was not purely the work of Bell, but a contested, near-simultaneous achievement by several inventors, with luck and money playing key roles in the final patent outcome.
• The early phone’s adoption was both technological and deeply cultural, sparking anxieties (about gossip, etiquette, gender, class) and revolutionizing communication speed and societal rhythms.
• The telephone industry played a crucial role in women’s workforce participation and independent wages—a detail often overlooked.
• The language we use (“hello!”) and even the shape of how we imagine the future (as technologically driven and attainable) are rooted in the late Victorian experience of breakthroughs like the telephone.

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Quick-Fire Quiz Highlights

Katherine Bond scores 10/10 in the quiz, recalling:

• Telegraph predated the telephone
• Bell’s famous first words: “Mr. Watson, come here. I want you.”
• Bell’s failed “ahoy-hoy” greeting
• The role of party lines and “hello girls”
• UK nationalization date: 1912

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Final memorable moment:
“I’m off to go and make Ahoy Hoy the official greeting for podcasts. Come on.”
—Greg Jenner [57:46]

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Further Listening

• For more on electricity: “Vital Electricity” episode with Prof. Morris
• More Katherine Bond: “Gráinne O’Malley, Pirate Queen” & “History of General Elections” episodes

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Summary prepared for listeners who want a thorough, engaging, and timestamped breakdown of the episode’s best moments, historical lessons, and comedic high points.

Transcript

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[Katherine Bond]

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[Greg Jenner]

Ahoy hoy and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenn. Hi. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today it is our 150th episode and so we are picking up the receiver and dialing back exactly 150 years to learn all about the invention of the telephone. And to help us with this special anniversary episode, we have two very special callers on the line in History Corner. He's professor of History at the University of Aberystwyth and he's an expert on the history and culture of Victorian science. You may have read one of his wonderful books including how the Victorians Took Us to the Moon and and you'll remember him from our episode on Vital Electricity, it's Professor Johan Morris. Welcome back, Johan.

[Professor Johan Morris]

It's a pleasure to be here again, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian, writer, actor and podcaster. You may have seen her hilarious stand up shows or on the TV on Last One, Laughing island, qi, the Mash Report Live at the Apollo. Maybe you've heard her Radio 4 show too long. Didn't read. But you'll certainly remember her from one of our many past episodes including the History of general elections and Julie d'.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Aubigny.

[Greg Jenner]

Who is it? Of course it is. The wonderful Catherine Bohar.

[Katherine Bond]

Hi. I'm so happy to be back. I feel like it's so nice of you to list my credits, but here I'm just a history nerd. I'm like, teach me something. I'm so excited.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna ask. It's been a little while since we've had you on because you've been so busy touring the world and being glamorous.

[Katherine Bond]

That's nice.

[Greg Jenner]

So I was gonna ask, have you sort of maintained your history nerd energy?

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah. And I came here fully ready to cast aspersions about homosexuality, and then I found out it's the telephone. And I've been like, well, can inanimate some of the. I mean, maybe the older TV televisions were a little bit au fait or like a little fey. I think maybe I can maybe say that, but I think it's gon. I would have to pay more attention. Science. You say science. Because I did study history, but pretty much every place I could chose to study social history. And so I'm out of my depth, but I'm excited.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm guessing you own a telephone, Catherine. I mean, you know, we all have to, right? In the modern world.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes. And I'm not sure I am one of those people who are like, if I didn't have to, I wouldn't. I think I'm a bit like, it's my special friend. Me and my special friend.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know anything about its invention, its early history? First 25 years or so?

[Katherine Bond]

I mean, I've heard the words Alexander Graham Bell.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure. And you'll hear them again.

[Katherine Bond]

You know, I watch a lot of period dramas. I've seen a lot of calling an opera writer. And yeah, I have some sense of that, but I don't have any sense of the science of it. I don't know how that worked. I'm assuming tin cans and string. Is that right?

[Greg Jenner]

Sort of. Right. Isn't it, Yohan?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Slightly more complicated than that.

[Greg Jenner]

Fine. Seems I'm out of my depth too, then. Okay, so what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our loving listener, might know about today's subject. And like Katharine, you know what a phone is. In fact, you're probably listening to this podcast on a phone right now, aren't you? Modern. But what about the phone's early history and invention? Maybe you've heard of Alexander Graham Bell. Like, Catherine had Maybe you've seen period movies where people are speaking to complicated looking contraptions and asking to speak to the operator. But was Bell really the first inventor? How did people react to this novel communication technology and what does it mean to get your wires crossed? Let's find out. Right, Catherine, our big anniversary year was 1876, at least for our purposes. Okay, so we're going to rewind to before the telephone and get you up to speed on what came before. So how do you think people had previously communicated across long distances before the telephone? And of course, I'm going to discount sending post because that feels too easy. So what else would people might have done?

[Katherine Bond]

Okay, so presumably Morse code was a way of communicating over long distances. Is that pigeons good? Yeah, pigeons were always pretty good, weren't they?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Send a pigeon in the post.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes. Is that kind of post yearning, I assume. Yeah, that one picked up that from that vibe wise. Yeah. Like looking out windows.

[Greg Jenner]

See, Right, that's what I'm assuming. Right. Sort of some Wuthering Heights energy.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah. See, sighing in a window seat. Did that not convey your message afar?

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, sure. I mean, if you're a great romantic, maybe it did.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah. I think I am.

[Greg Jenner]

Put your heartbreak into the ether and hope that they heard you. How did people communicate over long distances before we're into electricity.

[Professor Johan Morris]

The real answer is the electric telegraph. That's when it all starts. I mean, go back before that. Fire beacons. I mean, think Tolkien, Ride of the Harem, sort of fire on the hills. That's the thing. Semaphore poles. You could send signals, whatever kind of line of sight in that kind of way. Yes, indeed. Carrier pigeons, all sorts of ways of conveying pretty basic, straightforward, not really very complicated information over long distances. Beyond that, really, information travels essentially as fast as you can.

[Katherine Bond]

Right.

[Professor Johan Morris]

You can send a letter at exactly the same speed that you could go if you went by horse carriage.

[Katherine Bond]

Is it crazy that I'm already like, oh, sounds nice. Really, it just sounds peaceful. It sounds like, you know, like because at the minute you send an email and before you even had the moment to be like, I did it, I answered an email. They've answered you again. And you're like, no, it's not my turn. How is it my turn? The sweet relief of being like, best of luck, lads, to the postman, and then being like, I'll deal with that when it returns.

[Greg Jenner]

This is a peak Victorian complaint, Catherine. They said the world got too fast, too quickly, they couldn't cope anymore.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Just can't keep Up.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It would have taken weeks for news to reach from, months from Australia, weeks from Central Europe or America. And so, yeah, the. And you're, I mean, so you want, obviously the telegraph machine. That is the crucial world changing technology, isn't it?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah. From the beginning of the 19th century, people start trying to figure out, look, you know, we can do all sorts of interesting spectacular things with electricity, shocks, sparks, I mean, all sorts of stuff. If you can get that to happen at a distance, then you have some kind of way of communication. And that's what people are trying to do. In 1837 in the UK, in London, Charles Wheatstone and William Fothergill cook take out what's the first patent for an electromagnetic telegraph. Basically a gizmo that allows you to send information at a distance.

[Katherine Bond]

I'm so sorry, is electric. Am I thinking of the same thing when it's like stop every three. Three words? Is that a telegraph?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

I mean, okay, great. Why do I feel like the stop is so important? You guys don't seem. You're looking at me like, what?

[Greg Jenner]

When you said stop, I thought you were gonna say hammer time. So I apologize. You know, my millennial instincts just. I mean, they went MC Hammer. We're doing MC Hammer.

[Katherine Bond]

No, but is it. It is where you have to kind of express the punctuation.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, yes.

[Professor Johan Morris]

The first telegraph is what they called a needle telegraph. And depending on what button you press at the transmitting end, the needles will point at a different letter. So you kind of spell out words. That was the Wheatson and Cook telegraph pretty much at around about the same time you saw the Atlantic. Samuel Morse invents his version of the telegraph and in connection with that, he invented the Morse code, that kind of system of dots and dashes that translates into letters of the Alphabet and allows you to send information that way. It was the Morse system, or at least the Morse system of transmission that really catches on. Once it becomes clear that telegraphy is going to be important, it's going to be lucrative, then lots of people are trying to get in on the act. And that's going to be a feature of a telephone as well. So by the end of the 40s, being the 50s, telegraph lines proliferating across the UK, across Europe, across North America, typically following the railway lines. Lots of business information, lots of government information. It's largely a kind of commercial tool conveying information about all sorts of commercial.

[Greg Jenner]

This is the old war stuff.

[Katherine Bond]

Kind of boring. Anyway, basically, as quickly as possible, where's the gossip telegram? Oh, my gosh.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, there was a chap called Mr. Reuters who set up a news agency because he realized. Hang on a second. I can make some money on this.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay, great. Really?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

I don't think of Reuters as my gossip rag anymore.

[Greg Jenner]

Anymore, but sure.

[Katherine Bond]

But maybe I'll start to.

[Greg Jenner]

It's not quite pizzazz anymore, but yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Not quite gossip stuff.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

1866, telegraph wire across the Atlantic, and then the business case really kicks off. If you can know the prices say, of wheat when it's being put onto a ship in New York or Boston or whatever to take those days weeks to cross the Atlantic, then you can make a financial killing. You can speculate. I mean, this is the origins serious stock trading.

[Katherine Bond]

I think what we're about to reveal is that I don't have any sense of financial speculation. But why does knowing the price of it when it gets on the boat in New York with information transmission being possible, mean that you can.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Because you know something that your competitors don't. Yeah, you're going to buy it when it arrives on the market, knowing how much it's going, knowing how much it

[Greg Jenner]

costs then, because it's still going to take weeks to come across in the boat. So you can't send wheat by telegraph. So the food itself is on the boat going slowly. But your information, you've got an advance. You can buy in advance. You can pre buy things when they're cheaper.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So it's almost something. It is a trade, really, in information. And that information is valuable. Getting it quickly is valuable. So lots and lots of inventors trying to figure out ways of not just simply sending, you know, one stream of information down the wire at the same time, but two streams of information down the wire or four streams of information. So duplex telegraphy, quadruple, all trying to get information more and more quickly. I mean, that's the telegraphic world of the 1860s, 1870s. That's where the telephone comes in.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And that's where we meet Alexander Graham Bell, who you mentioned. Catherine, do you know where he was born? Do you know which country he was born in?

[Katherine Bond]

No. I mean, Belle to me feels British, but maybe that's not true. I don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

British is correct, but it's not England.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, is he a scar?

[Greg Jenner]

He is, yeah. He's born in Scotland. He's born in Edinburgh, 1847. Ewan. His family are interested in speech and sound because his mother is deaf. And so he's interested in this sound technology for communication purposes.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, his mother is deaf. I mean, More than that, he comes, weirdly, from a family of ilocushnists, people who teach you how to speak properly. That's the Bell background. So he's interested in speech, he's interested in communication. His mother is deaf. His father, if I remember rightly, develops a kind of sign language that allows him to communicate with his wife. So Bel comes from a background that cares about speech, communication, conveying things in new ways. They go over to Canada and the States. Bell is a musician. He works as an evocutionist. He works with deaf people, communicating to the deaf amongst other people. He teaches.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, he teaches a young lady.

[Professor Johan Morris]

That's the pointer I'm of.

[Greg Jenner]

Mabel. Yeah, Mabel.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Mabel.

[Greg Jenner]

A young lady called Mabel, who's the daughter of a chap called Gardener Hubbard. It's a good name, isn't it? Gardiner Hubbard.

[Katherine Bond]

Gardiner Hubbard. Goodness me.

[Greg Jenner]

And Mabel is deaf. And lo and behold, Belle marries her sort of problematic marriage. Klaxon time, I think, because.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah, but at least she's the sort

[Professor Johan Morris]

of thing that we'd be allowed to do.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, sorry, We've invested in that, this series. We spent some money. Me too.

[Katherine Bond]

I'm surprised it took this long, honestly. Everything I know about history says you should have really been ready to go.

[Greg Jenner]

He did wait till she was after 18, which on this show is actually good.

[Katherine Bond]

Pretty rare.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, I know it's a low bar, but, you know, it is.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, late teens always better than early teens, I can't help but feel.

[Greg Jenner]

So he had a deaf mother, deaf wife. He's quite a complicated, controversial character in the deaf community today because later on in life he argues against sign language. He's not a great hero, but we don't have time to talk about that so much, so I'll just sort of move on and say. Telegraphy is a sort of ancient Greek modern compound word meaning far away. Writing tele. Far away. Graphy writing, telephony is far away. Sound. Is that what the new big exciting question mark is for Alexander Green Bell? How do you get sound across a long distance?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes, I mean, I think that's it exactly. There isn't really a very good way of doing that.

[Katherine Bond]

Shouting hello.

[Greg Jenner]

I love yearning. Yearning, I think, is.

[Katherine Bond]

What about yearning or screaming?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yearning had limited market value.

[Katherine Bond]

I think probably disagree. Okay, this is the BBC, the channel of yearning. All right?

[Professor Johan Morris]

There were things like the enchanted lyre. L Y R E. Not the lying sort, invented by Charles Wheatstone, a telegraph chap. You had a lyre, a little harp thing floating around in a room. And you could play not just music, but say piano music or violin music. It was basically transmitting sound from another instrument in another room.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, wow.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So kind of music at a distance.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Round and about the 1860s, I think. Gentleman by the name of Edward Levi Scott de Mountainville invented what he called a phonautograph, which was a device for recording sound. Think of those kind of sort of needles, lines on a piece of paper thing. I mean, that was essentially the phonautogram that was being generated out of those. So you could have a recording of the sound, but you couldn't reproduce it. You couldn't listen to the noise. Again, round about 1860, Philip Rice invents what he calls a telephone. So.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's German. Right? So when we say rice, it's R E I S, isn't it?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So a telephone.

[Katherine Bond]

Thank you for not letting me imagine the wrong thing. Good for you.

[Greg Jenner]

So he invents the word telephone.

[Professor Johan Morris]

He invented the word telephone, and he invented an instrument that could electrically transmit sound over a distance, but not voice. There are people working on this. I mean, this is as with a telegraph, you know, people can see that there's, you know, there's potential here as part of that search for quicker, more efficient, more lucrative ways of telegraphing long distances very, very quickly.

[Katherine Bond]

Is Rice getting, like, muffled sound even from speaking of voice? Is he getting like you're in a tunnel on a train noise? Is he getting.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Just getting kind of buzz?

[Greg Jenner]

So you're not putting your phone in rice yet. Hello? Hello? Hello? Anyone?

[Katherine Bond]

No, I liked it.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm trying. I loved it. Two other big inventors we should mention. Have you ever heard of Elisha Gray or Antonio Meucci?

[Katherine Bond]

No, but I'm hopeful that Elisha might has a chance of being a woman.

[Greg Jenner]

No.

[Katherine Bond]

No. Okay. I was like, for a second, I was like, is it just Elijah? Is that basically what you're saying to me? Okay. No, I haven't heard of either of those other men.

[Greg Jenner]

They are the two. Two big names I think, that we can put up as co. Or rival inventors of the telephone alongside Bell.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Rival inventors, certainly from their individuals.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, they're not collaborative. They're not allies.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Not collaborative.

[Greg Jenner]

Rivals.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Absolutely not.

[Katherine Bond]

All three are rivals.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay, so say their names to me again.

[Greg Jenner]

So Antonio Meucci is an Italian who I think moves to the States. I think, yes.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, he moves to the States. He invents what he calls the teletrophone.

[Greg Jenner]

Beautiful teletrophone. Yeah, exactly.

[Professor Johan Morris]

And takes out a patent in 1871. Or a caveat for a patent, that is to say, a kind of promissory note that I haven't quite got there yet. But I'm laying debs on this image placeholder. I'm working on this when it emerges. Looking at accounts of Mirch's invention, clearly Canada, some things that a telephone can do. But there are weird aspects as well. I mean, for example, according to Meucci, users have to be insulated. They have to stand on glass stools.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, totally reasonable expectation.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Everybody has glass stools lying around.

[Katherine Bond]

After all, what level of simultaneousness is this occurring within the three of them?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, it's a good question. This is 1871. So this is.

[Professor Johan Morris]

This is all pretty close.

[Greg Jenner]

He's the first to file in America a patent that we might say is telephonic Fair. Yes.

[Katherine Bond]

But is it his patent or is it him going, no, just hang the fire again, I'm totally gonna be patent.

[Greg Jenner]

It is a case.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Well, mind you, a lot of what's going on is kind of a hanging fire.

[Greg Jenner]

And also, he gutted Mayuchi. He's not made of money, this guy. He can't afford to keep the patent. It's another $10, isn't it?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. I mean, I think the caveat lasts a few years and then you've got to. Then you have to put your money down to keep it going. Yeah, it's 10 bucks. Mirchi doesn't have 10 bucks. So the caveat lapses.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

You have to put credit on your phone.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. You got crazy pay monthly on your patent. Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So in the meantime, Elisha Gray again, Gray is somebody who's made his money and is making his money out of telegraph invention, developing new kind of variations, new improvements on telegraph technology. Again, trying to make this stuff work faster. He patterns what's called a harmonic telegraph and a sound telegraph.

[Greg Jenner]

So.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

What year is that?

[Greg Jenner]

1874.

[Professor Johan Morris]

1874. And then in 1876, Bell goes, well, bing, essentially, and ding dong, takes his stuff to the patent office, and he gets his caveat on the patent to say, look, I can do this thing.

[Greg Jenner]

This is the famous case, right? Because technically, Gray's the first one through the door.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So Gray arrived first at the patent office, but what he submitted was a patent caveat. So not the full patent. An hour or so later, Bell turned up, or rather Bell's lawyers turned up, and they submitted the full thing, the full patent application. The world of electrical invention is a relatively small one. In the 1870s, Bell and Gray would certainly have known about each other. They would certainly have known they were working on kind of similar stuff.

[Katherine Bond]

Are they working in the same city?

[Greg Jenner]

Don't think so, no. But I think they probably have to file in the same office.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. I mean, there's just the one found office. So I'm just actually them. I'm just their lawyers who are doing this on.

[Katherine Bond]

Surely on their behalf at that point, do you just not want anybody like helping you? Can you have no assistance in case people are spilling secrets, like, how do they. Do they know about each other's actual process?

[Greg Jenner]

But Bell's got support from his father in law, right? So he's got some financial support.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, he's got financial backing.

[Greg Jenner]

So Mabel's dad is quite rich and has been backing him, so. And Gray hasn't quite got that cash.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah, yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, Gray is prosperous. I mean, he's got his own kind of. What's he called? The Western Telegraph Company or something like that. None of these people are impecunious, apart from Mae Jim, apart from Mayuchim, he's

[Greg Jenner]

like, excuse me, can I borrow a 10?

[Katherine Bond]

I like him.

[Professor Johan Morris]

It's telling that he's the one that's lost out in a certain sense. In a certain sense here. So it's really close.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So Belle and Gray file on the same day, but Belle is awarded the patent. Up to this point, I just want to say we've had telephone, we've had teleautograph, we've had teletrophono, we've had harmonic telegraph. They're lovely words for this new technology. Catherine, given your creativity, if I had to ask you to rebrand the phone with a new name, what would you re dub the technology of a phone

[Katherine Bond]

Man's best friend, Handy little helper.

[Greg Jenner]

Charming.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Huan. We've obviously got two rival inventors filing a patent on the same day. The obvious question, and I think, Catherine, apologies if it is unfair, but I think both of us are not. We're not really great on the engineering of how phones work.

[Katherine Bond]

You went, I accept that.

[Greg Jenner]

You went, tin cans and string. And I went, yes. So, Johan, how do these early, very basic telephones of a sort work?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Think back, I hope, to school physics. You know that if you take your magnet, this is Michael Faraday in the 1830s. Take one magnet, take one coil of wire, move the magnet in and out of the coil of wire. When the magnet moves relative to the coil, it generates a current in the coil. That's the basic idea. The way that pretty much, I mean, all of these rival inventions more or less is you needed to find a way to get your voice. To get a voice to make a magnet vibrate back and forth. So the magnet is kind of vibrating back and forth in the coil, and as it does that, it's creating a current. And that current varies in the way that your voice is varying. It's getting the same thing to happen at the other end.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

And that's reproducing the sound.

[Greg Jenner]

But you need. You need a microphone to capture that sound. Do you. Is that fair?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. I mean. I mean, what a. What. What a telephone receiver transmitter is essentially, is a microphone. And yeah, it's funny enough, it's around about this time that people like David Edward Hughes and Edison are inventing things like microphones. So lots of interest in that kind of using electricity to do things around and about sound.

[Katherine Bond]

What I'm hearing is a sort of science version of it's carried on the wind. Okay. That doesn't make any sense to me, but I believe you. And will that do?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Well, that's the key to getting on with Bobby Science. I think I believe you in.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So the legal battle literally went down to the wire. Grey didn't take that lightly. He filed legal actions. He tried to argue his case, but ultimately Bell was found to be the official winner. Whether he was the moral victor, Catherine, I'll leave up to you.

[Katherine Bond]

I think the lesson here is that boys should learn to work together. That's my lesson, is that actually they could have probably come up with it together earlier if they put their little brains together, but they decided to make it a competition, as they must. Look, look what happened.

[Greg Jenner]

We do know that Alexander Graham Bell does make the very first official telephone call. He demonstrates this by calling his assistant.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, he doesn't call Gray to be like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.

[Greg Jenner]

Is that what you would do?

[Katherine Bond]

That's in my head, what their vibe is.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, but.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay, so he calls his assistant.

[Greg Jenner]

He does, yes.

[Katherine Bond]

Where is his assistant?

[Greg Jenner]

Well, that's not that far away.

[Professor Johan Morris]

The assistant is in the next room.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, very good.

[Professor Johan Morris]

First known telephone messages. Mr. Watson, come here. I need you.

[Greg Jenner]

I want you. Isn't it? I want you.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I want you. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

I feel that's quite heated rivalry erotica.

[Katherine Bond]

It really is. I want you. I need you.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

Also, Watts, with Watson's always getting relegated to second.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. You always need a Mr. Watson as your assistant.

[Katherine Bond]

I want you.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I want you.

[Katherine Bond]

That is romantic. We finally got to yearning.

[Greg Jenner]

Electromagnetic yearning at love. Johan, given that Bell could easily have just shouted into the next room. It hasn't really proved that this technology is effective over distance. It's proved that it's effective over 10 meters. So were people initially, you know, bedazzled by this invention? Or they're a bit like, well, that's just a parlor trick.

[Professor Johan Morris]

If it's possible to be simultaneously bedazzled and unimpressed, then by and large, people are bedazzled and unimpressed. On the one hand, wow, you can send voices down the line. That's amazing. The other part is, so what do we do with this? This doesn't, for example, solve the problem of being able to send even more information even more quickly than telegraph lines, because voices aren't actually that efficient as means of quick communication. I mean, all those is a lot quicker, a lot more efficient than saying,

[Greg Jenner]

yes, Mr. Watson, come here, I need you.

[Katherine Bond]

That's their issue. They're like, oh, great, so now we have to listen to you yap on, is it? Well, we just want to get to the information.

[Greg Jenner]

I don't know. WhatsApp voice messages, they're basically mini podcasts now. I've got friends who leave five minute messages. It's like, come on, just send a text.

[Katherine Bond]

This is such a male reaction to the opportunity to chat. I'm like, what are you talking about? How nice. Okay, so they just think inefficient.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So it's not quite clear what this amazing technological novelty is for. In 1876, the Americans hold their centennial exhibition in Philadelphia. Bell's invention is on show there. It wins prizes. Judges go, this is the most amazing thing we've ever seen. But it's still kind of not clear what it's for. So Bell goes campaigning and he offers

[Greg Jenner]

his patent to the Western Union Telegraph Company, a very powerful company that have a monopoly on the telegraph. And he says to them, I will give you my technology for $100,000. And they say, nah, there's no future in this. Which is now studied in business schools as one of the worst decisions in business history.

[Professor Johan Morris]

It's bad decisions.

[Katherine Bond]

Incredible.

[Greg Jenner]

Legendary.

[Katherine Bond]

Wow. Love that.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Bell had to go on his own, Right. So he hasn't got the big money. He's got his father in law, Gardiner Hubbard.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. So, I mean, they set up a Bell Telephone Company which did. Okay. I mean, it's changed its name. 1.2. What was it now? Oh, yes, AT&T.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, okay, I've heard of them.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah, they're still there. And Bell started doing actually what all successful 19th century inventors do. Spectacle showmanship. He goes and gives Lectures, shows, telephones off on stage, plays music down the telephone. Playing the harp in New York.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

And the punters in Boston can listen to the harp being played. Or if it's in the uk, playing God Save the King, God Save the Queen.

[Greg Jenner]

Checking himself there.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So making a spectacle out of it, making a show out of it, because

[Katherine Bond]

he's ready to sell it to them.

[Greg Jenner]

He wants this to go into communities, homes, towns, businesses. He doesn't want it to be just like an engineering thing.

[Katherine Bond]

It's absolutely. But does he have. Is he in that kind of position? Like, does he have a load of telephones sat around that he is ready to sell, or is he hyping before he has production?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, he's Elon Musking.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah. I guess I'm wondering. Yeah, like, where is he in this?

[Professor Johan Morris]

He's doing a bit of both. I mean, he's certainly hyping before he has production.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Johan Morris]

And if somebody rolled up at the end of one of these lectures and said, okay, right, I'll buy one. Yeah, it would be. Well, very well, sir, you may join the waiting list.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, okay.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Because after all, as with all of these things, you don't just need to buy the apparatus, you don't just need to buy the telephone. There's a whole infrastructure, there's a whole network that goes along with getting the telephone to work, to be a thing.

[Greg Jenner]

But they can build on the existing telegraph cabling system across the America.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. They have an advantage there that in lots of places those cables are there. So they would need to connect those cables to individual houses, individual businesses, and you don't have a telegraph in your room. You don't even have a telegraph, by and large, in your office, unless you're a very large outfit.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay.

[Professor Johan Morris]

There are telegraph offices and you send your boy to the telegraph office with a message and then it's, we've all

[Greg Jenner]

got a boy, if that's a son of sorts.

[Professor Johan Morris]

And it's sent down the line.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So it needs to be connected.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

So there has to be a new infrastructure. So, yes, there does need to be money behind all of this.

[Greg Jenner]

And as part of Bell's promo tour, he goes on tour. In fact, in 1877, he puts a ring on it. His bell ring, ding, ding. There we go. He marries Mabel, they go on honeymoon, and when she's told what the honeymoon is, he's like a promotional tour of Britain, darling. And they off they go to Britain. How would you feel if your partner married you and then immediately said, honeymoon actually is. We're off to an expo, you know, got to go and sell the products they make.

[Katherine Bond]

I fathom either happening. So I'm a bit like, hang on, I'm the wrong person to ask because I'm a performer. I'm like, I get it. Listen, I'll book some gigs. Let's make this. Let's get the show on the road. I mean, we are hell. So I don't think that I'm a good example. If I'm Mabel, I'm like, are you kidding me? What the hell? And also, like, there's got to be an extra salt in the wound when you're. If. If you're deaf. How effective is the telephone at this point for you? Not very useful.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Katherine Bond]

And it's now my honeymoon. Oh, come on. I'd be livid.

[Greg Jenner]

But they did get to meet the Queen.

[Professor Johan Morris]

You get to meet lots of us. You get to meet important, influential people

[Katherine Bond]

and you have to meet the Queen. I would be raging.

[Greg Jenner]

A true Irish woman.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes.

[Katherine Bond]

I'd be like, are you kidding me?

[Professor Johan Morris]

I'm Welsh. I'm with you.

[Greg Jenner]

And also the Post Office in England and. England and Wales, I'm assuming, becomes the agent for Belle's telephone as well.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. Which is also quite handy because by this point, the telegraph network in the UK has been nationalised and it's the Post Office that runs it. So having an in at the Post Office is quite a lot of help when you're trying to set up a new kind of communication network.

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[Katherine Bond]

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[Professor Johan Morris]

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[Greg Jenner]

there are technical problems. Right. Buzzy, interference, noisy. There's an issue of crossed wires, which is quite a literal thing. The wires get crossed?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes, Literally, if wires brush up against each other.

[Greg Jenner]

So if two wires touch each other,

[Professor Johan Morris]

then the messages might get confused, go in different directions. Reception with early telephones really isn't that good. It's buzzy, it's crackly. There are problems of kind of being able to sort of discriminate noise from the background. There is the whole business of you talking to the operator and then the operator putting you through.

[Greg Jenner]

There's also the party line, isn't there?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So a shared phone line.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Though mind you. Though mind you, party lines lasted for quite a long time. I can remember as a child in the 1970s.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

So what is the party line?

[Professor Johan Morris]

We were on a party line.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

You share the line with some of your neighbors. So if they're on the line. So if they're on the phone, you can't be on the phone, but you can hear.

[Katherine Bond]

Can you hear what they're saying?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

Bring it back.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna ask gently Catherine, would you be interested in eavesdropping? And your reaction tells me perhaps.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't mind. Bring it back. Are you joking? Bring it back. That's fantastic. Why would anyone. Does anyone ever get off the phone? I'd be like, bring my meals to me.

[Greg Jenner]

Who needs podcasts? I'm just listening in to the neighbors.

[Katherine Bond]

Marriott number nine is. I'm making another call. Wow, that's exciting.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, I think it features quite a lot in things like early Agatha Christie novels.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna say it's a big thing in sort of comedy movies in the 1930s, like scruple comedies. People sort of being on the wrong line to each other.

[Professor Johan Morris]

The nosy neighbor is spending all of their time on the phone, literally listening on your neighbour.

[Katherine Bond]

Please be respectful.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. So it's called the party line because you're sharing it with other parties, but for you it'd be a party line because it's a party. It's an all day party.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So Bell's patent gave him 17 years, but then that lapsed and then other businesses came in and started offering their own phone services. You suddenly got rival phone companies, you've got First Mover Advantage. But then obviously everyone else gets to sort of hop onto the system that's already there. And so you subscribe to a service and there's no such thing as bills

[Professor Johan Morris]

you pay, however much it is for the service. Yeah. Again, something like Netflix, you give them your subscription.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you subscribe to Phone Catherine?

[Katherine Bond]

I'd love to subscribe to Party Phone. Sign me up. In a beautiful wooden box. Mahogany. No, I'd love it. I'd love it.

[Greg Jenner]

From 1878, this is a brand new invention, the switchboard. Why is this important?

[Professor Johan Morris]

As more and more people get phones, as more and more people on the network, then connecting people gets more difficult, more important, more complicated. So switchboards are a way of, to a degree, automating the business of kind of taking somebody's end and plugging it into somebody else's socket.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay, you have been watching the gay hockey show.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna say this is very erot.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Phones and telephone girls operating offices. Switchboards are entirely staffed by women. Before they started employing young women as telephone operators, they did try young men. After all, that was the history. Telegraph operators from the mid-1840s had typically been young men and they were typically a pretty raucous crew. And that kind of telegraph culture didn't really seem to work in the telephone exchange.

[Katherine Bond]

Shocking.

[Professor Johan Morris]

But women are, you'll be astonished to know, docile, well mannered, they don't misbehave, they don't gossip, they don't do anything, they don't gossip.

[Katherine Bond]

I'M like, Amazon, this doesn't track.

[Greg Jenner]

What are you doing?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Then they just sit there and they're obedient, they do as they're told, they're trusted.

[Greg Jenner]

Which is, you know, quite a rare thing in the 19th century for women to be given this level of trust in a commercial operation.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Actually, yes, I'm nothing being serious for once. This is an important new kind of employment for middle class young women.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah, it's huge.

[Professor Johan Morris]

This is an independent job, something that allows degrees of financial independence and there's feeds into that kind of late Victorian, wow, technology of the future. I mean, it makes women like that part of that kind of technological culture.

[Greg Jenner]

They get a charming nickname. Do you know what the nickname is?

[Katherine Bond]

Call girls. I want a better name.

[Greg Jenner]

You're not far off. That's slightly inappropriate. Probably the hello girls.

[Katherine Bond]

Hello girl. I love that.

[Greg Jenner]

That's from the 1880s. They're the hello girls because they, you know, they greet you and then they, they plug you into whoever you want to talk to. And initially you just say, can you just put my friend Jim on? And they'd be like, sure. And then obviously after a while there's too many Jims. And then they have to start asking you for actual details of the number.

[Katherine Bond]

But yeah, do they start asking for a phone number? Do they start asking for a house address? What do they start asking?

[Greg Jenner]

It's more. It's more a connection to the number, I suppose, isn't it?

[Professor Johan Morris]

But so at the very beginning, you would literally call up the operator and say, I would like to talk to Mr. Jones. And since there'd be only one Mr. Jones there, then that'd be relatively straightforward. As the phone proliferates, then you start getting people using addresses. Connect me to 45 Edgware Terrace or wherever. And then you would end up with something like a contemporary situation where you're asking for a specific number. Connect me to London123.

[Greg Jenner]

And the spread of the phone is really interesting. It spreads very quickly in America, so you get a very quick uptake in the States. It's really sort of popular in the cities. By 1882, there's a telephone for every 200 people in Chicago, which is amazing. In London it's every 3,000 people. And obviously it spreads much slower in the rural regions, much slower in the countryside. I think UK or England gets fairly early on, but Europe's quite slow to pick up the phone. But it's interesting is that you still get these shared party lines, but you also get businesses putting phones into their banks, into Hotels. So people might use the phone. You might pop into a bank to use a phone. So they become quite important, the phone, quite early on. And by 1902, there are 81,000 payphones in the USA, which is a lot of payphones.

[Katherine Bond]

How many?

[Greg Jenner]

81,000 payphones. 1902. I mean, we're within a quarter of a century of the invention of the thing. They're everywhere now. I said the hello girls, which obviously is a charming thing. Do you know where the word hello comes from?

[Katherine Bond]

No. No.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's the official telephone greeting.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

And it's not the one that Alexander Graham Bell wanted.

[Katherine Bond]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know what he wanted?

[Katherine Bond]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

I said at the beginning of the show, ahoy hoy.

[Katherine Bond]

Are you joking? He wanted what? If you're in a bad mood, ahoy hoy.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm very angry.

[Katherine Bond]

No, what are you talking about?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, he wanted a hoi hoy.

[Katherine Bond]

And what was hello? His. His reaction when he heard. He didn't get it. Hell. Oh,

[Greg Jenner]

that's great.

[Katherine Bond]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

That's really good.

[Katherine Bond]

So where did hello come from?

[Greg Jenner]

He said, hoi.

[Katherine Bond]

Hoi. What a weird rich boy like Ewan.

[Greg Jenner]

Why? Why do we say hello on the telephone? Because it's one of the most popular words on the planet, which is remarkable, because it's quite a newish word.

[Professor Johan Morris]

It's a newish word. I mean, like a hoy hoy. It's distinct. Hello.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

It's a word that hopefully is going to kind of cut through. It's Thomas Edison's idea. If I remember rightly, it's Edison who suggests that hello would certainly be better than a hoy hoy as a form of greeting when you're communicating.

[Greg Jenner]

But they're both hailing words, aren't they? Ahoy hoy is what you say to a sailor when you're hailing them. And then hello.

[Katherine Bond]

They're both.

[Greg Jenner]

And in America, hello was a hailing word.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Hello, yes. So they're communicating at a distance.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Because it carries across. Across. If you were shouting across a field, hello would carry.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

But in. In the uk, hello is a phrase of surprise. If I bumped into you on holiday. If the two of us were in the same cafe in Italy, we'd be like, hello, what are you doing here? So it was a word that existed

[Katherine Bond]

already, just sort of to mask your disappointment at seeing a local on your one bloody holiday.

[Greg Jenner]

Bloody bohart gets everywhere.

[Katherine Bond]

It took us eight days on the boat and here's hello. Hello. I like it.

[Greg Jenner]

So hello becomes the official word because of Edison. He Says it's got good, nice, clear. It cuts through the noise on the interference and it becomes one of the most popular words on the planet. And the hello girls are so named. Can you imagine, though, if we did a hoi hoi instead?

[Katherine Bond]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

The Lionel Richie song Ahoy Hoy. Is it me you're looking for? Just so many.

[Katherine Bond]

I just can't bear to think how many boat shoes we'd have to be wearing.

[Greg Jenner]

I just think, ugh.

[Katherine Bond]

It's just. I'm very glad it's not okay.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I just think the hoihoy Girls doesn't quite.

[Greg Jenner]

The hoihoy Gollum. I can imagine the Wonder Bra advert from the 90s. Ahoy hoy, boys. I mean, just so much we could do with it. Come on. I'm gonna bring it. I'm bringing it back. I'm bringing it back.

[Katherine Bond]

Ahoy Hoy magazine.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've talked about the hello Girls and the fact that they were trusted with employment. This is a really important thing. There is a gender shift here as well. And you've also got this notion of managerial roles. There's a woman called Catherine Schmidt who introduces training methods to make sure that women have good diction in her area. So there's really interesting things happening there. There are social anxieties as well about hello girls working in these jobs. People are concerned about their safety, but also their function or their performance.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes. They're young, single women. They're going to be routinely, as part of their job, in contact with men. Are men going to flirt with them? Are men going to be inappropriate? Are men going to try to chat them up?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, absolutely they will. Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes.

[Professor Johan Morris]

There are limited hours, but they finish working relatively late. So concerns about unaccompanied young women walking home late at night, Things like that.

[Katherine Bond]

Love that. The solution then, as it is now, is like maybe the women should stay home rather than the men not being awful. Yes, yes. Great tale.

[Greg Jenner]

As old as time.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes. Isn't it just?

[Greg Jenner]

There's also some fun stuff about them growing their hair or combing their hair over their ears or something.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Concerns about women, their hair's too long, they can't hear properly, Stuff like that.

[Katherine Bond]

Wow. I'd love to be surprised that men didn't know anything about women's bodies, but that also remains constant.

[Greg Jenner]

Actually, there are plenty of concerns that were raised by this new technology arriving into people's homes and into towns and cities and buildings. So, Catherine, I've got a mini quiz for you here. These are seven things the Victorians feared might happen to society because of the telephone. Six are true. One I've made up. Can you guess which one I've made up? Let's go. Did people fear that women might commit adultery from home with the new technology of the phone? Men maybe would not stand up when phoning a woman. Were people fearing that there might be phone calls happening between people wearing their pajamas? There might be fears of lower class people phoning up posh people and harassing them on the phone. There might be fears that businessmen would hog the phone lines and women couldn't use the phone because it was so busy. There could be fears that telephones would invade domestic privacy. And of course, casual telephone speech. Little idle chitchat would destroy face to face manners and etiquette. So which of these complaints, worries, concerns, was not a Victorian anxiety about the phone?

[Katherine Bond]

They all seem like pretty Victorian anxieties. Perhaps I'm inclined towards pajamas. Is that maybe.

[Greg Jenner]

What's your thinking behind that?

[Katherine Bond]

It's the pajamas or the sitting down one. They just seem even more parody of themselves. But they all seem like they'd be worried about it. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go sitting down.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Well, I'm afraid you are wrong. They were, they were worried, they thought. But if men are sitting down on the phone, that's wildly inappropriate. They should stand to speak to a woman.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, for goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

And the pyjamas thing too. What if they weren't wearing trousers on the phone?

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that track.

[Greg Jenner]

No, the one that was a lie. I said businessmen would hog the phone lines and women wouldn't to be able, able to get on the phone. Exact opposite problem. Their fear was that women would gossip on the phones and men couldn't do business. Katherine.

[Katherine Bond]

Well, if the resource is finite, that's a reasonable concern, I think, but. Okay, fair enough. That's the made up one. Good for you.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, you. And actually the operators, they had the power to just end a call, right? They could say, sorry, someone needs line.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes, okay. They could indeed.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, like our dads in the 90s. That's enough now I need the telephone.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, I mean, they're all always there. Yes. I mean, there are a limited number of lines. If you're banging on for too long, then, yes, the operator might well say, sorry, your time's up, somebody else needs to talk to the prime minister now.

[Katherine Bond]

Can they hear you? Yes, they can hear every conversation, I believe.

[Greg Jenner]

So the, the operators would be able to hear what was happening, right? Yes, pretty much, yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, they may, yeah, they can Break in?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

When you're using a pay phone, for example, you pay for a certain amount of time. Your two minutes is up.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Do you want to put more money in? So they would interject into your.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Into your conversation.

[Greg Jenner]

Just going back to those anxieties, Catherine, just very quickly. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? We, we once again have a lot of anxieties about the phone, about etiquette, about how it's changing young people, etc. Etc. It's interesting how new technologies scare us.

[Katherine Bond]

Oh yeah. We always have panic, don't we? It's always like. And the panic is always that we'll reveal our true selves to be ourselves. It's always like, what if we behave like we probably will. I don't know that it's a symptom more other than a call, like, which one is it? Yeah, but also they could be speaking privately without being policed by society. Right. Like they might actually have the opportunity to relax or to be intimate without being a.

[Greg Jenner]

And in France, the great fear is that women are having literally oral sex on the phone. That is the big number one concern is that women will cheat on their husbands on the phone.

[Katherine Bond]

And so, you know, if that just

[Greg Jenner]

started in France, that's a peak French concern.

[Katherine Bond]

I love that.

[Greg Jenner]

By the Edwardian era, by the early 1900s. Johan, is it, is the novelty of the phone wearing off or is it an exponential uptake?

[Professor Johan Morris]

I would say it's quite an exponential uptake. But it becomes more and more normal to have a phone. Well, I mean, if you're a middle class, upper middle class household, predominantly initially in London, then in other large cities, then gradually the phone networks kind of spread out. I mean, you'd have telephone exchanges in towns. So it's then the case that more and more of the country are getting hooked up through telephone networks.

[Greg Jenner]

And I mean, by the 1920s, 40% of American houses had a telephone, which is remarkable. 1920s, this is really, really kind of widespread. The UK slightly further behind, but the lines were nationalized in the UK in 1912, so just before the First World War. And is that an important decision?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yes, I mean, it's. Well, it's, as with the nationalisation of the telegraph a generation or so earlier, a recognition to a large extent that this was an asset that couldn't really be trusted to private enterprise, that this mattered sufficiently to be a matter of governmental control, governmental oversight.

[Katherine Bond]

Remember 1912. Wait, so who's in government? Who's doing all this nationalization?

[Greg Jenner]

Well, I definitely know this off the top of my head, it's just right there. It's Asquith with the liberal government. But it's a really important question. And you're right. And funny how you reacted. I did exactly the same. My brain immediately went, why are we letting all the tech billionaires run everything? But, you know, that's where we are now anyway. I mean, we've done a huge amount of history there, Catherine. Only 25 years, really. We crammed it in, but actually a huge story. Is there anything particularly that surprised you or stood out?

[Katherine Bond]

I guess that it. From invention to the ubiquity of its use is such a short period of time that there aren't any major hiccups. It seems like that it kind of seems to go quite smoothly. Its function there isn't. It doesn't seem like it became impossible at a certain distance. It seemed to just grow exponentially. I think the other thing I find shocking is, yeah, I guess the presumption of nationalization is still like, oh, gosh. But I think it's also. I had never really thought of it as a part of the feminist movement or of, like, you know, empowering women, but I guess it makes total sense that it was a space through which they acquired employment.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And good employment. They unionized quite quickly. They got higher wages quite quickly. It's one of those rare jobs in history where, like, everyone went, we do need this. We'll have to pay these women, unfortunately.

[Katherine Bond]

Ah, wow. Am I getting excited for 1912.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, exactly. Nostalgia Phone nostalgia.

[Katherine Bond]

Imagine that.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance Window. Well, it's been. It's been a fascinating chat, but it is time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Catherine and I quietly eavesdrop on the party line for two minutes while Professor Yuan tells us something we need to know about the history of the early telephone. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Professor Morris, we've been talking about the telephone invented in 1876. I want to tell you about another invention that took place almost at the same time as the telephone. It's revealing and it's important because it tells us a lot, I think, about what the telephone meant to the Victorians. Almost as soon as the telephone was invented, people started talking about this other new invention that hadn't quite been invented yet, but was going to be invented. Really? Honest, Gov, any second now. This was the telectroscope. The telectroscope essentially was going to be telephone with vision. So you get wonderful cartoons in punch of mater and pater. Sitting in their Victorian parlor, talking to their kids, playing tennis somewhere far out in the colonies. And it's always on the cusp of being invented. Throughout the 80s, throughout the 90s, it's always just about to be invented, and obviously it never is. But what I think is fascinating about that is what it shows us about the telephone and what the telephone meant. It's the future. I mean, that's what all of those sorts of technologies meant to the Victorians, because they were starting to think about the future and understand the future basically the way that we do. It's that destination we're going to get to with big tech, with technology, things like a telephone and a telectroscope, with the next big thing on their horizon. That was going to be the technological future.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much. Two minutes on the spot. I mean, fantastic. They basically invented zoom.

[Katherine Bond]

All I could think about as you were talking was the Simpsons in the future. They always had televisions that you could see each other on. And that was like a hundred years later, in the 90s, of us being like, get real. But, like. Yeah, that's so interesting.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Never happened.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It's very steampunk, isn't it? There's a real aesthetic to that.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, again, I mean, you're imagining that people in the past thought about the future the way we do.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah.

[Professor Johan Morris]

And they didn't really.

[Greg Jenner]

No.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, not before the 19th century.

[Katherine Bond]

How do we know that? What do you mean?

[Professor Johan Morris]

Because. What does Isaac Newton think the future is going to hold? Isaac Newton thinks the future is going to hold Armageddon.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, that's it.

[Professor Johan Morris]

I mean, in between Newton and Armageddon, things are going to pretty much be. You get stories about people going to the moon, say, in the 17th century, they go to the moon in chariots pulled by geese, drawn by geese or swans or whatever.

[Katherine Bond]

Yeah, but I.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Nobody thinks you can do that. These are utopian tales. The moon is utopian.

[Greg Jenner]

The Victorians invent the future that we think of as a future, as a concept. It's really interesting. We'll do an episode on it one day because it's really good stuff.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Okay.

[Katherine Bond]

Because my brain is immediately going, well, no, the people who wrote things down imagine the future as you're telling me they imagined it, but loads of people didn't get to.

[Greg Jenner]

No, that's fair. That's fair. We'll do it one day.

[Katherine Bond]

Interesting.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Yeah.

[Katherine Bond]

Sorry.

[Greg Jenner]

It's all right. So what do you know? Now. It's time to. What do you know? Now? This is our quick Fire quiz for Catherine to see how much she has remembered today. You have been jotting down notes.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes. Will they help me?

[Greg Jenner]

Got 10 questions for you. Okay, we've covered a lot of history, so let's see how you go. So question 1. What form of electrical long distance communication predated the telephone?

[Katherine Bond]

The telegraph.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Question 2. Which inventor submitted his patent caveat on the same day as Alexander Graham Bell?

[Katherine Bond]

Gray.

[Greg Jenner]

It was Elisha Gray. Well done. Question 3. What did Bell say to his assistant Thomas Watson in the very first telephone call?

[Katherine Bond]

Mr. Watson, I want you.

[Greg Jenner]

Come here. I want you.

[Katherine Bond]

Come here. I want you.

[Greg Jenner]

I need you. I must have you.

[Katherine Bond]

Come on, Watson, it's our time.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 4. What did Bell propose? Should be the standard telephone greeting.

[Katherine Bond]

Ahoy hoy. Crazy.

[Greg Jenner]

Bring it back. Question 5. How did Belle spend his honeymoon with

[Katherine Bond]

his wife Mabel, making her promo his new product in the uk?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Katherine Bond]

With a surprise twist of getting to meet the Queen.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Katherine Bond]

What a drag.

[Greg Jenner]

A honeymoon for all to enjoy. Question 6. What invention allowed telephone users to talk to each other rather than just the central office?

[Katherine Bond]

As in. Do you mean like the switchboard?

[Greg Jenner]

The switchboard is correct. Absolutely. Well done. Question 7. What nickname was given to the women who operated the telephone exchanges in America after the 1880s?

[Katherine Bond]

Hello, girl.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, boys. Question eight. Name one common technical problem that beset early telephone users?

[Katherine Bond]

Crossed wires. It's a real thing.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, real thing. And noise interference and surveillance. People listening in.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes, of course. The party line that still befalls them if they're on a bus with me. Let me tell you that.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 9. Can you name two examples of the social anxieties that critics had about the telephone and its use?

[Katherine Bond]

They were very worried about poor people calling rich people to moan about the state of affairs which they should have been wary of. And they were all also concerned about men sitting down or possibly wearing a pajamas while they speak to women on the telephone.

[Greg Jenner]

Good. Serious concerns, I think.

[Katherine Bond]

Yes, real thing.

[Greg Jenner]

This for a perfect 10 out of 10.

[Katherine Bond]

I haven't referred to my notes yet, by the way. I'm very proud of myself.

[Greg Jenner]

In what year was the telephone system nationalized in Britain?

[Katherine Bond]

Oh, 1912.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, she's done it. Amazing. So casual.

[Katherine Bond]

I told you. I'm good at short term retention, regurgitation, and then immediately forgetting it because I went to a very, very intense school. Do I know any of it now? No.

[Greg Jenner]

Trauma learning. Amazing, Catherine, well done. And thank you so much, Professor Iuan. That was a lovely history lesson there. I think we all learned plenty about the telephone and Listener. If you want more from Catherine, of course, she's done many episodes with us, including a fan favorite, Granja o', Malley, Irish pirate Queen, and of course, the history of general elections, which was very interesting too. For more electrical history from Professor Yuan, there's our episode on Vital Electricity with Olga Koch that was surprisingly violent. It's quite a lot of sort of electricity torture and people being shocked horribly. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds in the UK to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. If you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Professor Johan Morris from the University of Aberystwyth. Thank you, Johan.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

[Greg Jenner]

It has. We've had a lot of fun. And in Comedy Corner we had the brilliant Katherine Bond. Thank you, Catherine.

[Katherine Bond]

Thank you for having me. Am I allowed to plug my futuristic special that's on the Internet?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, go for it.

[Katherine Bond]

How exciting. I just put my most recent show on YouTube and it's called Again with Feelings. And if you like a nosy hello girl, then I'm very much that. And I'm gabbing some gossip.

[Greg Jenner]

Perfect. There we go. Go watch it. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we search through the phone book for another neglected historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and make Ahoy Hoy the official greeting for podcast. Come on.

[Katherine Bond]

Never.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

You're dead to me is a BBC studios production for BBC radio 4. This episode was researched by rosalind sklar and catherine russell. It was written by rosalind sklar, Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, Dr. Emma goose and me. The audio producer was steve hanke and our production coordinator was jill huggett. It was produced by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma nagoose. And our executive editor was philip sellers.

[Professor Johan Morris]

Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. You might be tired of switching on

[Greg Jenner]

the news, hearing those pre rehearsed sound

[Professor Johan Morris]

bites, the lines to take from those who shape our lives. When politics is as fragmented, as unpredictable, as fraught as it is now, it can be hard to cut through the noise. That is precisely my aim on political thinking. My podcast from BBC Radio for I have extended conversations with those who shape our political thinking. I try to get to the heart of what makes these people tick what lies behind what you're seeing or hearing on the news. That's political thinking. With me, Nick Robinson, you can listen on BBC Sounds.

[Greg Jenner]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Katherine Bond]

Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird.

[Professor Johan Morris]

What is this, your first date?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty.

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