Legends of King Arthur (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Legends of King Arthur (Radio Edit)"

Podcast Information:

• Title: You're Dead to Me
• Host: Greg Jenner
• Guest Historian: Dr. Mary Bateman, Lecturer at the University of Bristol
• Comedic Guest: Mike Wozniak
• Release Date: June 6, 2025

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Introduction to King Arthur’s Legends

In the episode titled "Legends of King Arthur," Greg Jenner delves into the rich tapestry of King Arthur's mythology, exploring its historical roots and evolution over centuries. Joined by Dr. Mary Bateman, a renowned historian specializing in medieval English literature, and comedian Mike Wozniak, the discussion balances scholarly insights with humor, making the complex history accessible and entertaining.

Early Mentions of King Arthur (03:13 - 07:20)

Greg Jenner opens the discussion by questioning the origins of King Arthur, a figure steeped in legend yet shrouded in historical ambiguity. Dr. Mary Bateman explains that the earliest references to Arthur likely date back to post-Roman Britain (circa 450-550 CE), a tumultuous period marked by invasions from the Picts, Scots, Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. These early texts portray Arthur as a possible military leader rather than the mythical king depicted in later tales.

Dr. Mary Bateman (06:15): "The earliest texts we have about him seem to suggest he might have been a military leader of some sort."

Mike Wozniak humorously probes the veracity of these early accounts, highlighting the enigmatic and fragmentary nature of the sources.

Welsh Sources and the Mabinogion (07:20 - 11:58)

The conversation shifts to the Mabinogion, a collection of Welsh tales that, although not original to Arthurian legend, contain significant Arthurian elements. Dr. Bateman highlights stories like "Culluch Cullw," where Arthur's court undertakes impossible tasks to win the hand of Olwen, the daughter of a giant. These narratives introduce fantastical elements and a diverse array of characters, expanding Arthur's court beyond historical plausibility.

Mike Wozniak (09:40): "Here is someone trying to grapple with an enormous sprawling collection of stories where people are rewriting, rewriting, rewriting."

Geoffrey of Monmouth and "Historia Regum Britanniae" (11:58 - 14:36)

A pivotal moment in Arthurian literature is Geoffrey of Monmouth's "Historia Regum Britanniae" (History of the Kings of Britain), written around 1136-1137. Dr. Bateman emphasizes Geoffrey's role in popularizing Arthur as the founder of Britain, despite earlier legends featuring giants and mythical events.

Dr. Mary Bateman (14:03): "Geoffrey of Monmouth is hugely important for the literature aspects of what becomes Arthuriana."

Mike humorously compares Geoffrey to a modern-day novelist, suggesting that Geoffrey may have embellished Arthur's story for literary appeal.

Chretien de Troyes and the Arthurian Romance (14:36 - 17:22)

Chretien de Troyes emerges as a seminal figure in shaping the Arthurian romance. Writing in the late 12th century, Chretien introduced iconic elements such as Lancelot and the love triangle with Guinevere. Dr. Bateman notes that Chretien's works shifted the focus from Arthur himself to the adventures and personal dramas of his knights.

Greg Jenner (17:22): "Lancelot is actually. He isn't even in the Arthurian tradition prior to romance."

Mike engages with a mini-quiz about Chretien’s contributions, adding levity to the scholarly discussion.

The Vulgate Cycle and the Holy Grail (17:22 - 21:40)

The Vulgate Cycle, an extensive series of Arthurian romances from the early 13th century, introduces mystical and religious dimensions to the legend, notably the quest for the Holy Grail. Dr. Bateman explains that these texts began to unify disparate Arthurian stories into a cohesive narrative, emphasizing Christian purity and the ideal knightly virtues.

Dr. Mary Bateman (21:40): "The Vulgate Cycle... brings these disparate stories into a kind of very epic, coherent whole."

Mike and Greg discuss the portrayal of the Holy Grail, with Mike humorously referencing popular culture depictions.

Malory’s "Le Morte d’Arthur" (21:40 - 26:52)

Thomas Malory’s "Le Morte d’Arthur" (The Death of Arthur), compiled in the late 15th century, serves as a comprehensive account of Arthurian legends. Dr. Bateman details how Malory synthesized earlier stories, bringing Arthur's narrative to its definitive conclusion with his mortal wounding and ascent to Avalon. The text also codifies the Round Table and the tragic romance between Lancelot and Guinevere.

Greg Jenner (23:00): "Mary, this is the very much the Marvel Cinematic universe of the 15th century."

Mike humorously laments not having read the dense work, likening it to popular extensive literature.

Nuance Window: Post-Medieval Arthurian Literature (26:52 - 29:10)

In the "Nuance Window," Dr. Bateman explores the often-overlooked period between the 16th and 19th centuries, where Arthurian legends experienced a creative resurgence. She cites examples like Martin Parker's 1660 ballad, "A Famous History of King Arthur," which humorously lists knights with bawdy names, illustrating the playful reinvention of Arthurian tales during this era.

Dr. Mary Bateman (27:22): "It's the time when you see some of the weirdest and funniest texts being written about Arthur."

She also mentions the Merlinic prophecy related to Kingston upon Hull, showcasing how Arthurian motifs were adapted for contemporary political and cultural contexts.

Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of King Arthur (29:10 - 30:21)

As the episode wraps up, Mike expresses newfound appreciation for the depth and complexity of King Arthur's legend, acknowledging the blend of history and mythology that keeps the tales alive and relevant. Greg Jenner teases future episodes, inviting listeners to continue exploring historical legends with the same balance of education and humor.

Mike Wozniak (29:14): "I thoroughly enjoy. I love that. It's been an absolute feast."

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Mary Bateman (06:15): "The earliest texts we have about him seem to suggest he might have been a military leader of some sort."
• Greg Jenner (17:22): "Lancelot is actually. He isn't even in the Arthurian tradition prior to romance."
• Dr. Mary Bateman (27:22): "It's the time when you see some of the weirdest and funniest texts being written about Arthur."

Final Thoughts

"Legends of King Arthur" offers a comprehensive and entertaining exploration of how King Arthur's image has been shaped over centuries. Through engaging dialogue between historian Dr. Mary Bateman and comedian Mike Wozniak, Greg Jenner successfully demystifies the legend, presenting it as a dynamic and evolving narrative that continues to capture the imagination. Whether you're a history buff or a casual fan of Arthurian tales, this episode provides valuable insights and delightful anecdotes that illuminate the enduring legacy of Britain’s most famous king.

Transcript

[Annie Newbond]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Lucy Worsley]

It's Lucy Worsley here and we're back with a brand new series of lady swindlers. Join me and my all female team of detectives as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men. These were women who traded in crime, but who were ahead of their time. History calls them criminals, society calls them frauds. But here on Lady Swindlers, we call them ordinary women who lived extraordinary lives. And we're still talking about them today. Meet a swindler with ever so many names.

[Annie Newbond]

I am Annie Newbond.

[Greg Jenner]

Anne.

[Annie Newbond]

Bruce Sutherland. Annie Ogilvy Bruce.

[Greg Jenner]

Madame Le Baron de BEAUMAN STUART. I'm Mrs. Annie Ogilvie White. Annie Frost. I am Mrs. Annie Gordon Bailey.

[Lucy Worsley]

Or travel with us to 1920s New York to meet Celia Cooney, the bobbed haired bandit. A celebrity armed robber with a plan.

[Annie Newbond]

Stick em up quick.

[Lucy Worsley]

But deep down, all she really wants is her dream home. And you don't have to just take our word for it.

[Annie Newbond]

We didn't call Celia the bob haired bandit. We called Celia Grandma.

[Lucy Worsley]

This season we're chasing fake mediums, a lady burglar and the infamous Yorkshire witch from England and Scotland to the US and beyond. Our lady swindlers are truly international. She moved from Scotland to England to.

[Annie Newbond]

Italy, later to New York to New Zealand and Australia.

[Lucy Worsley]

As always, we're travelling back in time with our in house historian, Professor Rosalind Crone. And we even come up with our own criminal nicknames. Cunning Crone, Loose the Noose, Luta Lucy and Robber Roz.

[Annie Newbond]

No bad ideas. Not all of them can be gone.

[Lucy Worsley]

Our guest detective team is expanding too. This season we're joined by broadcasters, Barris Thur, authors, activists, a psychologist and even an artist.

[Annie Newbond]

Actually, I was always fascinated by England. I don't know, it might have to do with Hugh.

[Greg Jenner]

Granted, yes, it did.

[Annie Newbond]

Four Weddings and a Funeral.

[Greg Jenner]

Iconic.

[Lucy Worsley]

We tried to understand these women.

[Annie Newbond]

This is a story of working class women trying to get by. This is survival.

[Lucy Worsley]

We relate to them.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm here shining up my fraudulent damehood. I started getting abuse online for having.

[Annie Newbond]

Accepted a demon, which is the ultimate mark of authenticity.

[Lucy Worsley]

Join me for the second season of Lady Swindlers where true crime meets history with a twist. Available now listen on the BBC app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Annie Newbond]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are saddling our noble steeds and galloping back to the Middle Ages in search of the legendary King Arthur. And to help us on our quest, we have two chivalrous companions at arms in History Corner. She's a lecturer at the University of Bristol, where her research focuses on the literature of late medieval and early modern England. And luckily for us, she's also the author of the prize winning book Local Places and the Arthurian Tradition in England and Wales, 1400-1700. It's Dr. Mary Bateman. Welcome, Mary.

[Annie Newbond]

Hi. Thank you so much. What a joy to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, making a triumphant return to the show. He's a comedian, an actor, a podcaster. You'll have seen him in Taskmaster man down and again in Taskmaster as Rose, Mattefeo's assistant on the wonderful Junior Taskmaster, which is lovely. Plus you'd have heard his dulcet tones on many podcasts, including my absolute fave comedy podcast, three Bean Salad. Check it out. But you'll know him best from our previous episodes, including our festive special about Charles Dickens himself, it's Mike Wozniak. Welcome back, Mike.

[Mike Wozniak]

Thank you very much for having me back. I'm very excited. I'm particularly excited about the topic.

[Greg Jenner]

Interesting. I mean, you're a total legend, but King Arthur, total legend. What do you know?

[Mike Wozniak]

I think it's the sort of thing you carry through your life if you've grown up in Britain. Oh, yeah, I know about that. But do I know about it? I don't know. That's partly why I'm so excited to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

I think it's a huge subject. There's quite a lot you can know without knowing.

[Mike Wozniak]

And is it just because I'm familiar with it? Is it just because of some sort of usborne book as a kid or because I played a King Arthur battle as a 10 year old? It's so familiar. But I doubt there's any details. So I'm very excited about getting into it Hard.

[Greg Jenner]

We'll find out if there's any details. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And, and I think, like Mike, you definitely would have heard of Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Merlin. Most people will have seen an Arthurian screen adaptation. I think that's your Disney Sword in the Stone, your boisterous King Arthur with Keira Knightley and Clive Owen, your John Boorman's Weird and Wonderful. Excalibur. You've got the Kid who Would Be King, the Sing Along Camelot. You've got the BBC series Merlin. There's Dev Patel in the Swoon, Worthy Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Quite weird, but good. Obviously the best Arthurian movie ever is Monty Python and the Holy Grail, a film I love so much. I wrote my master's thesis about it. I am on home turf today.

[Annie Newbond]

Amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

Finally, something I know about. And that's not mentioning all the operas, plays, poems, video games, paintings and books about King Arthur. But where do these stories come from? Was the medieval Arthur the same as our Arthur today? And just how big was a roundtable anyway? Ooh, let's find out. Right. Dr. Mary Hollywood's vision of Arthur, or Arthuriana, I think, is what we call it, the collective world of King Arthur. Hollywood makes it all sort of shiny armor, knights around, ladies in pointy hats, dangerous forests. It's very 14th century. Is that where we start our quest for King Arthur?

[Annie Newbond]

No, absolutely not. And actually, the first mentions that we really get of a possible Arthur figure are a lot earlier than this. And they suggest Arthur is a lot earlier than this. They place him in kind of post Roman Britain. Okay, so just after Emperor Honorius has withdrawn troops in 410, there's that couple of hundred years that we often hear called the Dark Ages. Yeah, I know. I feel the same. This is when some of the earliest texts place Arthur's rule as having happened, which makes sense because the province of Britannia is being invaded and raided by a series of different groups. You have the Picts and the Scots from the north, and you've also got Angles, Saxons, Jutes coming in those Germanic groups who would form the first kingdoms in England. Britain needs a hero, and so there are lots of bits of poetry written about heroes. And this is where we see the first mention of Arthur. So the earliest texts we have about him seem to suggest he might have been a military leader of some sort. In post Roman Britain, we're talking sort of 450 to 550 CE. So about a thousand years earlier than your pointy hats.

[Mike Wozniak]

Okay. And they're written at the time or they're written later?

[Greg Jenner]

These areas. Key question. They're a bit later, but they're sort of set at the time, aren't they?

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah, they are quite a bit later. The earliest references to Arthur are very enigmatic and fragmentary, which just add to his appeal, really. There is a very early Welsh poem. Now, I say Welsh, but we think it was Written in the very, very north, kind of south Scotland, north of England, called a Godovin. The really important mention, the first detailed mention we get of Arthur comes quite a bit later in around 830, and it's in this text called the History of the Britons. And it's an attempted history that traces the origins of Britain right back to this hero called Brutus.

[Mike Wozniak]

The Trojan dude.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes, the Trojan dude, yes. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Mike Wozniak]

All I know about him is that he. He left Troy, had a few adventures and then came here and in a classic sort of conqueror style, killed some indigenous giants or something and then said, this is mine, by the way.

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah, exactly that. And yet you see him in the Middle Ages being called the founder of Britain. And there seems to be a kind of oversight of these giants who were originally there.

[Mike Wozniak]

Four sweet giants.

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So the next text we have to talk about would be a Welsh classic. My pronunciation is going to be dreadful. But Mabinogion, that's great.

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah, a Mabinogion. And actually that's a collection of texts, a Mabinogion. Within this collection of tales, there are some interesting, interesting Arthurian examples. The Mabinogion, it doesn't appear until quite late in. In manuscript form, so we're talking sort of 14th, 15th century manuscripts. But we think the texts contained within them were actually probably first written down as a collection much earlier, in the 11th or 12th century. And here's the kicker, they probably have oral origins, some of them that are even earlier than that. But one of my favourites, and one of the earliest is, is a tale called Culluch Cullw. So basically, Arthur has a cousin called Culluch or Killuch, who's man, and he's fallen in love, potentially through a curse, but never mind, with a young woman called Olwen. And her father is a terrible giant called Isbath Arden, chief of all giants. In order to win Olwen's hand, Cilluch is given a series of tasks, impossible tasks, 40 of them that he has to complete. He can't do this on his own. So he goes off to King Arthur's court and enlists the help of Arthur and his kind of almost superhuman knight.

[Greg Jenner]

All I'm hearing here, Mary, is he invented taskmaster. That's what I'm hearing, Mike. 40 tasks, off you go. That's a series of taskmasters.

[Mike Wozniak]

Here's a bunch of guys around a round table who might be up for it, up for a challenge. The Mabinogin I'm vaguely familiar with. It's incredibly weird, people sort of Seem to change form quite regularly.

[Greg Jenner]

It feels quite. I don't know.

[Mike Wozniak]

I assume at some point someone's got to kill a boar. Right. Normally they think someone's got to kill a magical boar.

[Annie Newbond]

How did you know that?

[Mike Wozniak]

I think that's just kicked into my memory. It's just dragged up from the back.

[Greg Jenner]

He is King Arthur. It's coming down to him.

[Annie Newbond]

It's him. It's you. Yeah. No, that's. That's the climax point, really, of the whole. So these 40 tasks are very varied and the climax is this hunt for this boar called Turch Truydd. And the interesting thing is a large number of the tasks relate in some way to preparing for this great boar hunt that happens at the kind of climax of the story. And the reason why they need to hunt Terueth is that this giant, scary boar has between his ears on his.

[Mike Wozniak]

Hairy little head, he's got a male grooming set. Yes.

[Annie Newbond]

Does you do know the story?

[Greg Jenner]

Is this.

[Annie Newbond]

Is that what you were thinking when you were thinking it's quite out there?

[Mike Wozniak]

Maybe.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah. So there's this sort of Miyagi style kind of training, secret training going on. And then. Yeah. He wants to trim his beard and.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes.

[Mike Wozniak]

And get his dream curls going for.

[Annie Newbond]

Wedding day, it seems.

[Mike Wozniak]

All the bounce and no frizz.

[Greg Jenner]

That's it, exactly.

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah. There are familiar names. So we have Bedwyr or Bedwyr Gwalchmai, which doesn't sound very familiar, but it's the Welsh name for Gawling.

[Mike Wozniak]

Right.

[Annie Newbond]

And Arthur's wife here is Gwynever, which sounds very familiar.

[Greg Jenner]

That's good, isn't it? So we're definitely edging towards Gwynevere. We're getting towards Gawain. So it's starting to feel Arthurian.

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

Beginning to feel familiar. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

But it's not. It's not quite there yet.

[Annie Newbond]

And there's lots of weird names in Arthur's court as well.

[Greg Jenner]

And, you know, I mean, according to the tale of it. Is it. How do you pronounce it? Cilluch.

[Annie Newbond]

Cilluch or Culluch.

[Greg Jenner]

According to the tale of Cilach and Orin, we've got King Arthur and a host of 260 warriors.

[Mike Wozniak]

Oh, blimey.

[Greg Jenner]

Quite. Quite a lot of people he's sort of gathered around his table. They've got some special talents. Some of them are quite weird. Special talents, Mary. I mean.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Got Sight, Son of Seer.

[Annie Newbond]

Sight Son of Seer, who has amazing eyesight. That's good. Which sounds useful. But then you Also have Penpingyan who walks on his head to save his feet.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing.

[Annie Newbond]

Less useful.

[Mike Wozniak]

Can you describe how he. How he does that exactly?

[Annie Newbond]

I assume he's just walking around upside down on his hands all the time, but surely that's a superpower. Not a very helpful one. I don't think his nightly peak years are going to last him long, to be honest.

[Mike Wozniak]

He's more of the show pony. End of things.

[Greg Jenner]

Perhaps you don't want to trust him in a fight, do you?

[Annie Newbond]

Really?

[Mike Wozniak]

He's pratting about with his hand stuff, showing off to the local peasants.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got Ear, son of Hera. He's got fantastic hearing.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Mike, what talent do you think Lip, son of Placid possesses?

[Mike Wozniak]

Lip?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

Is he a polyglot? Is he a man of many tongues?

[Greg Jenner]

That's a very, very good guess.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Nowhere near too useful.

[Annie Newbond]

Too use.

[Mike Wozniak]

I mean, magical kisses. Can he kiss it all better?

[Greg Jenner]

That'd be. What a wonderful thing. Oh, that'd be so good.

[Annie Newbond]

Rogue figure.

[Greg Jenner]

No, no, his skill is. Well, I'll read you the quote. On days when he was sad, he would let his bottom lip drop down to his navel. And on the other day it would be a hood over his head. Yeah. So the party trick he does with his bottom lip is it goes down to the navel, but I should clarify, actually, the top lip goes up over the head like a hood. How do you see?

[Mike Wozniak]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

I don't see how that's particularly useful.

[Mike Wozniak]

To measure the emotional temperature of the.

[Greg Jenner]

Of the squat, maybe. That's right.

[Mike Wozniak]

Like morale barometer. It's quite useful for leaders.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. How's. How is morale today? Well, Lip is currently wearing his lip like a hat.

[Mike Wozniak]

Knights will just say that they're fine, but are you really? Let's have a look at what Lip's doing.

[Greg Jenner]

And after this charmingly weird Mabinogion, we get our first English source, Mary. And it's not entirely English, because Geoffrey of Monmouth is a bit Welsh.

[Annie Newbond]

He's kind of extremely famous in the Arthurian tradition because around 1136, 1137, he produces this book called the Historia Regan Britanniae, or the History of the Kings of Britain. You're not. I think you probably have heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

This is the one that starts with Brutus.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

Ends with the Saxons coming and giving everyone a wallop.

[Annie Newbond]

And you might notice an overlap there with the history of Britonum. And that is a major source for Geoffrey. But he's a lot more elaborate on Arthur's life than what has Come before. So much so that people think, did he make all of this upright? I would imagine that if you'd grown up in Monmouthshire, and if he did indeed have Welsh family, he would have been familiar with oral stories that we know were circulating about Arthur. But I think a lot of the detail is his own biographical elaborations, if you like. And it is so, so popular. So there's, I think, something like 215 copies that survive from the Middle Ages.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. That's incredible.

[Annie Newbond]

So it's really.

[Mike Wozniak]

He's the Grisham of his.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, he's the John grisham of the 13th century.

[Annie Newbond]

It's just. It's a huge. It's just like a huge, huge change in terms of the record of the history of Britain. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

We would call him a chronicler, we would call him a historian, but he's hugely important for the literature aspects of what becomes Arthuriana. So do you want to talk us through that?

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah, massively so. Because that. We don't have much of a biography of Arthur before. What Geoffrey adds in terms of details is incredibly important for the romances. And we find out about Arthur's conception, which is not a very nice story. He's the son of a king called Uther Pendragon. His mother was married to someone else. And then Merlin helps Uther to trick her by disguising him as her husband. And it's all not very consensual. Yeah. What else is familiar here? He has a wife called Gwanhamara, who's essentially, again, Guinevere. He's betrayed by his nephew Mordred, which becomes a very crucial part of Arthur's story. He has a relative called Morgan le Fay, who's not a baddie. No, she's not.

[Greg Jenner]

Because I think most people will hear the name and go, morgan le Fay, baddie sorceress, evil queen, witch lady.

[Annie Newbond]

She's really done dirty by later authors. But not here.

[Mike Wozniak]

No, because she's the one behind the Green Knight, isn't she?

[Annie Newbond]

Oh, yes, she is mentioned in the Green Knight story. And by that point. She's not very nice by that point because she wants to frighten Gwynevere to death, which is horrible. And Merlin is the other important addition here.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

Is that where he first appears?

[Annie Newbond]

There's an earlier figure in the Welsh tradition called Mirin, and he's a poet and he's a prophet as well.

[Greg Jenner]

And that then kickstarts what we might. We might charmingly cheekily call fanfiction. It's not necessarily fanfiction. But it's a sudden surge of other writers going, oh, I can. Oh, I can run with this. I can add to this. And it starts straight away, doesn't it?

[Annie Newbond]

So what Greg's referring to here is the romance tradition that starts in Europe, which is very hard to summarise because it just explodes so quickly. Geoffrey's text is translated, so it's originally in Latin, a handy lingua franca for the period. And it's translated very, very quickly into French by a Channel Islander called Wass, into English translations of it all across Europe and into Welsh as well, actually. So, yeah, from the 12th century, we start to see Arthurian literature being composed. Literally the lion's share of Arthurian romance, really most innovative Arthurian romance that we see at the earliest date is in French. Some of these authors in particular, I'm thinking here of Marie de France, who I'll talk about in a sec. And also Chretienne of Troyes. Chretien de Troyes. They really are interested in these big questions about how a knight balances his chivalric, his martial obligations with, you know, being courtly and refined and being a lover.

[Greg Jenner]

He's a lover and a fighter, ladies.

[Annie Newbond]

And Arthur in these texts becomes a. We call him a rapha nant, a do nothing king. He's a lot less important than his knights and all of their affairs and adventures and things like that. And Lancelot is actually. He isn't even in the Arthurian tradition prior to romance.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, let's do a mini quiz for you, actually, Mike. So Chritien de Trois is probably the most important writer of this period. Writing in sort of the 1170s, 1190s, adds quite a lot of iconic elements to the Arthurian canon. So which of these five iconic elements was not Chretien's invention? So I'm gonna give you five. One of them's not from Chretien. One, Camelot. Two, Lancelot. Three, Lancelot's tragic romance with Guinevere. Four, the Round Table. Five, the quest for the Holy Grail, which was not Chrisean's invention.

[Mike Wozniak]

I'm gonna say the Quest for the Holy Grail.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a good guess, but it's the Round Table. Is it really? Yeah, the Round Table comes not.

[Mike Wozniak]

That's the first.

[Greg Jenner]

Chretien didn't come up with Chretien, came up with the others. So who invented the Round Table?

[Annie Newbond]

The Round Table is first mentioned. Do you remember earlier I mentioned Wass, the Channel Islander who translates Geoffrey and adapts it makes it more interesting. Yes. And one of the additional details that he includes is that a circular table is produced that can seat knights all the way around it with no hierarchy. So it's to get rid of squabbling about seniority. In the Grail texts, this has developed a bit. So there's always a seat that's left vacant called the Siege Perilous, or the Dangerous Chair. The Dangerous Seat.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Siege means chair in French.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Annie Newbond]

And the idea being that it's deadly to sit in. The only person who can sit in it has to be the most pure knight going, and that's the only one who can achieve the quest for the Grail.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you think of when you.

[Mike Wozniak]

Think of a Holy Grail beyond the Monty Python film?

[Greg Jenner]

Well, okay, beyond. What do you think of when you. In terms of what it looks like, what it is?

[Mike Wozniak]

Well, I'm a follower of Indiana Jones. So it's going to be a basic cup, you know, perhaps wooden. Yeah. That Jesus drank from at the Last Supper. And I think the legend was that if it could be restored to Britain, that that would heal the nation. I think that is also involved in this kind of Joseph of Arimathea.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Mike Wozniak]

Did he come to Britain? If so, did he bring Jesus as you know, as his apprentice? Did he buy a cup from a gift shop in Glastonbury while he was here? Did he take it back? And then is it like nicking a hoe garden glass from a pub? Was it not actually his glass and he was supposed to return it to the bar, but he didn't. He didn't know any better. He's not from this neck of the world. Do you know?

[Greg Jenner]

What I mean is that Chretien says.

[Annie Newbond]

Chretien says that it is a flat serving dish for presenting the Eucharist wafer.

[Greg Jenner]

I need to ask also, we've mentioned the Round Table.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

How many knights are sitting around the Round Table?

[Mike Wozniak]

I always imagined it was like a baker's dozen.

[Greg Jenner]

You're thinking 13.

[Mike Wozniak]

I was thinking King Arthur and then a dozen knights.

[Greg Jenner]

You're bang on for one of the sources. But we also get, I mean, various numbers, right?

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah. So it ranges from 12 knights up to a lot more than that. In Lahamond's Brute, he says that a carpenter builds this fold out portable table that can be carried around that can seat as many as 1600 nights.

[Greg Jenner]

1600.

[Mike Wozniak]

This thing is portable, we're saying.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Round table can seat 13 or 1600 or somewhere in between. Or somewhere in between. It really depends. So each Arthurian text was changing core elements Mary, we're seeing here writers coming in, adding bits, tweaking bits, taking a name, running with it. We need to mention Marie de France.

[Annie Newbond]

She's a really important figure because, first of all, there aren't many female Arthurian authors, to be honest, at this early date that we know of. And Marie de France translates this group of stories that she says are Breton lays, which were kind of sung to a harp in Brittany. There's one called l' Enval, about a knight who is overlooked by Arthur and Guinevere and just not treated very well. And he ends up being rescued by a fairy lover who he has a very good time with in a meadow, in a tent somewhere. And she rides in to rescue him, and he leaps on the back of her horse and rides off just as he's about to be given this terrible trial at Arthur's court.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah, lovely stuff.

[Greg Jenner]

Great, innit?

[Annie Newbond]

So she's great. I love Married France. And they're a good length as well. You can just kind of dip in.

[Greg Jenner]

She was writing in the late 1100s.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And what's interesting after that is we get what's called the Vulgate Cycle.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Slight pivot in the direction of the themes.

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah, a little bit. It's also really the first time that we start to see a lot of these disparate stories being brought together into a kind of very epic, coherent whole. But, yeah, the Vulgate Cycle, we're not sure exactly who wrote it, but we think it may have been written by someone, possibly a secular author, who had spent time in Cistercian circles. And they were all about kind of mystical things. Which explains why.

[Greg Jenner]

So they were monks.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes. Which explains why the Grail is such an important part of that part.

[Mike Wozniak]

When is this? When is this?

[Greg Jenner]

Early 1200s.

[Mike Wozniak]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

So we start to see a slight pivot away from the kind of the adventures of knights, and it's becoming a little bit more about, like, Christian purity and the idea of the ideal knight. Have you heard of Le Morte d' Arthur as a book by Thomas Mallory? Have you read it?

[Mike Wozniak]

I don't. No, I haven't read it. I have heard of it. It's sort of rapscallion figure, isn't he? Yeah, sort of. It's a prison book.

[Greg Jenner]

You know your stuff, don't you, Mike?

[Mike Wozniak]

I. I have to confess it. I think it's one of those things that I've intended to read for a long time. I've never. Do you know what I mean?

[Greg Jenner]

It's on the list behind all the impressions.

[Mike Wozniak]

I May have even owned it at some point, you know, and it's been put on the bookshelf in front of. Of the grishams. But then you reach for a grisham.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, you're spot on. Yeah. So, okay, you haven't read it, but you know that he's a bit of a. Bit of a character.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, Mary, this is the very much the Marvel Cinematic universe of the 15th century. Here is someone trying to grapple with an enormous sprawling collection of stories where people are rewriting, rewriting, rewriting. And he's gone, oh, we need to standardize this. We need to bring this all into one coherent narrative. A beginning, middle and end about King Arthur. And he dies at the end. We call it Le Morte d' Arthur.

[Annie Newbond]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

Which sounds pretty sexy.

[Annie Newbond]

Yes. No, it wasn't.

[Mike Wozniak]

And it was a major spoiler.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Yeah, actually, that's true. Yeah, you're right, actually. Yeah.

[Annie Newbond]

It does massively give the game away. The original title in English was different. It was the whole book of King Arthur and His Noble Knights of the Round Table. Which I think is more. Leaves you to guess what the ending's gonna be.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. La Morte d' Arthur, you're right. It's a real.

[Mike Wozniak]

But it's less easy to put in. It's not such a sort of front of the bookshop type title.

[Annie Newbond]

So it's written in 1469. 1470. So we're talking quite late at this point in the middle age. Quite a bit later than the other romances we've been talking about.

[Greg Jenner]

It's just before the Tudor era. It's right at the end of the day.

[Annie Newbond]

Wars of the Roses. Yeah. And it's 1485. It's actually printed, and it's printed by this printer called William Caxton. And Caxton retitles it Le Morte d' Arthur, presumably because it sounds kind of classier.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Malory is a politician. He's a sort of sheriff. He does some bad stuff, he ends up in prison. So tell us, who was he?

[Annie Newbond]

Well, we had three candidates. We weren't sure which Thomas Malory Knight who was imprisoned. It was, as it turns out, there were three candidates, but the one who looks most likely, he was from Warwickshire. And, yeah, he had a very colorful career, shall we say? He was a sheriff. He was a justice of the peace five times. He was an mp.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Annie Newbond]

But he was also accused of some pretty terrible crimes and spent time in prison for them. And these range from cattle rustling and things like that to robbing a local abbey. All the way up to attempted of the Duke of Buckingham, theft, rape and extortion. So, all in all, not known as being a particularly nice. Particularly nice guy.

[Mike Wozniak]

He's not as old as time. Right. The guy seeking office. Gotta get in office again just in case the law catches up with him.

[Greg Jenner]

It's the Donald Trump strategy, isn't it?

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah, it's effective.

[Annie Newbond]

And yet he's accused of all these terrible things. And actually, we think that he may have written La Morte d' Arthur, which I don't know if you've ever seen a copy, but it is massive, it's huge. It's one of those books that people say that they've read sometimes when they haven't read all of it because it's so, so long. And we think that he wrote it while during a period of imprisonment, possibly Newgate Prison, or possibly somewhere Tower of London maybe. Somewhere where he would have had access to manuscripts that contained enough of his source material that he could use then.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Morte d' Arthur is a sort of compendium of stories. We break it down into eight tales.

[Annie Newbond]

So it takes you right from Arthur's conception through his rise to the throne. You've got the Sword and the Stone story in there about him pulling the sword from the stone and becoming king. He goes over to Europe and conquers the Roman Empire after a nasty challenge from a Roman emperor. We're introduced to all of his round table nights, as in some of the other romances.

[Greg Jenner]

He's got 150, hasn't it?

[Annie Newbond]

150 of them.

[Greg Jenner]

A good round number.

[Annie Newbond]

Quite a lot. Lancelot is more important than in other English romances in Malory because of his French sources. And this is where you get the story of Lancelot and Guinevere, that great love triangle. Malory's kind of squeamish about the sex stuff, so they don't have sex with.

[Mike Wozniak]

It, probably for the mass market. Right?

[Annie Newbond]

Yeah. Well, and possibly a slightly more prudish audience, I don't know, until quite late in the text. And then after everything goes wrong for Arthur and he's betrayed by Mordred, and the knights fall into kind of infighting and factions, partly because of what happens with Lancelot and Guinevere. It all goes very wrong. Arthur is mortally wounded and is taken off to Avalon. This is one of those texts where we are told, some people think he doesn't live anymore. And this is where we first hear Arthur called the Once and Future King. And then there's a funny postscript with Lancelot and Guinevere, where they become a monk and a nun, respectively.

[Greg Jenner]

So this is the kind of classic text that students read. Well, try and read and then very quickly give up. So it's, it's a romance, but it's not that romantic as everyone dies at the end. Yeah, the nuance window. So it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Mike and I sit quietly at the round table for two minutes. Minutes with our many, many, many other nights. And we give Dr. Mary two minutes to tell us something we need to know. So my stopwatch is ready. Without much further ado, the nuance window, please.

[Annie Newbond]

Okay, so we haven't spoken much today about the period between the 16th and 19th centuries and that's because a lot of people think of this as an Arthurian nadir. No one is interested in Arthur, no one is writing about Arthur. And actually this is the time when you see some of the weirdest and funniest texts being written about Arthur. I'm going to give two examples today, but there are tons of others. Two of my favourites. The first is a little pamphlet pub, a famous balladeer called Martin Parker. A famous history of King Arthur, 1660. So just on the cusp of monarchic restoration and it seems fairly normal until you delve into his massive list of Arthur's knights, which alongside Gawain Lancelot, includes names like Sir Doggery, Sir Bawd, Sir Frisky and Sir Bigot. And I love this because people talk about Parker and this particular text as examples of, of royalist propaganda and it just goes to show how even the more sober Arthurian genres at this time are becoming playful. There's some tongue in cheek stuff going on here. It's not attempting to be history anymore and because of that things get a lot more diverse and interesting. Because we mentioned Hull earlier, did you know that there is a Merlinic prophecy, a prophecy supposedly attributed to Merlin about Kingston upon Hull and its invasion by parliamentary forces? Lots of people don't, and I don't know why you would, but I find it really funny that Merlin, who is a royal advisor, is co opted as a prognosticator, as a prophet for parliamentarianism, you know, around the Civil War period. I just find that completely wonderful and a great testament to how even in this nadir things can continue to be reinvented.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much. There you go to King Arthur. He's the once and future king because actually he keeps coming back. Yeah, but with a new.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah, whatever's needed at the time.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, yeah. So there we go. How do you feel about King Arthur now, Mike?

[Mike Wozniak]

I thoroughly enjoy. I love that. It's been an absolute feast.

[Greg Jenner]

You knew way more than you let on. You said early on that you had, like rough outlines.

[Mike Wozniak]

I wasn't sure. Yeah, I'd loved it as a kid, I think in particular. And there's so many brilliant movies and things remind you.

[Greg Jenner]

There are so many movies in particular.

[Mike Wozniak]

I mean, I'm going to have to go back and watch that.

[Greg Jenner]

Excalibur is a great one. First night not so good.

[Mike Wozniak]

Yeah.

[Annie Newbond]

We seem to share the knowledge between us, which I love. Everyone has something a bit different.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly, exactly. There you go. All right. Well, thank you so much, listener. If you crave more Wozniak in your life, of course you do. Check out our episodes on Stone Age cattle. Hayek. Do you remember that? Yeah. Or of course, Dickens at Christmas. A very festive episode. And for more lovely legends, we've got an episode on Atlantis which was not real, but very interesting. And remember, if you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review. Share the show with friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. So you never miss an episode. But just want to say a huge thank you to our guests. In Corner we had the brilliant Dr. Mary Bateman from the University of Bristol. Thank you, Mary.

[Annie Newbond]

Thank you so much. This has been great.

[Greg Jenner]

It's been lovely. And in Comedy Corner we had the marvelous King himself, Mike Wozniak, the once and future Arthur. Thank you, Mike. It's lovely.

[Mike Wozniak]

I've loved it. Thank you so much.

[Greg Jenner]

Fabulous. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we ride off on another historical quest. But for now, I'm off to go and trim my beard. First I just need to find a wild boar. Bye.

[Annie Newbond]

Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. I'm Amanda Iannucci.

[Greg Jenner]

And I'm Helen Lewis, a comedy writer.

[Annie Newbond]

And a journalist teaming up like a.

[Greg Jenner]

Pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

[Annie Newbond]

Our mission is to decipher political language, stress testing to destruction those used and.

[Greg Jenner]

Abused buzzwords and phrases, finding out what they really mean and looking at whether they're meant to deceive us or to.

[Annie Newbond]

Distract us or to disturb us. And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trade. But be warned, this series does feature strong political langu that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle. Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

[Greg Jenner]

Listen now on BBC Sounds.

[Annie Newbond]

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the newly independent nation of Lithuania had a point to prove everything was political.

[Greg Jenner]

Back then, we had a responsibility so that the nation could be even more united in such difficulties.

[Annie Newbond]

And their men's national basketball team did just that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, guys, we are strong enough to play the vault.

[Annie Newbond]

With a little help from the iconic American rock group, the Grateful Dead. You couldn't make this story up if you tried. Amazing Sports stories from the BBC World Service presents Bill Walton's the Grateful Team. Listen now.

[Lucy Worsley]

Search for amazing sports stories wherever you get your BBC podcasts.