Leif Erikson

Summary

You're Dead to Me – Episode: Leif Erikson

Release Date: September 6, 2024

Host: Greg Jenner
Guests:

• Dr. Elena Barraclough: Senior Lecturer in Environmental History at Bath Spa University, specializing in medieval North European cultures, Viking history, and Old Norse sagas. Author of Embers of the Hidden Histories of the Viking Age.
• Kyle Smith: Comedian and broadcaster known for his roles in Ghosts, Taskmaster, and hosting The Great British Sewing Bee.

---

Introduction

Greg Jenner welcomes listeners to this episode of You're Dead to Me, a BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that explores history with humor and insight. Today's focus is on Leif Erikson, the medieval Norse explorer believed to be the first European to set foot in North America, predating Christopher Columbus.

Greg Jenner [01:45]: "Hello and welcome to you're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously."

---

The Viking Age: Overview and Misconceptions

Dr. Elena Barraclough provides a comprehensive overview of the Viking Age, spanning approximately 750-1100 CE. She clarifies common misconceptions about Vikings, such as the myth of horned helmets and the prevalence of violent raiding.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [06:07]: "When we talk about the Viking age, we're thinking Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. It involves violence, but also trading, exploration, and settlement."

Kyle Smith [07:03]: "When you say Viking, is it like blonde blokes in a boat?"

Dr. Elena Barraclough [07:32]: "They didn't wear horned helmets. That's a 19th-century stereotype."

This segment debunks the popular image of Vikings as solely fierce warriors, emphasizing their roles as traders, farmers, and explorers.

---

Leif Erikson: The Man, the Myth, the Evidence

Leif Erikson, born around 975-980 CE in Iceland, is introduced as the son of Eric the Red, the founder of the first Norse settlements in Greenland. The discussion highlights Leif's portrayal in the sagas as a promising and moderate individual, contrasting with his father's more tumultuous reputation.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [09:55]: "Leif is described as tall, handsome, and moderate in his behavior, in stark contrast to his father."

The conversation explores the reliability of the sagas as historical documents, acknowledging their blend of fact and cultural storytelling.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [11:40]: "The sagas are not just history; they're cultural storytelling, remnants of how this culture thought about the world."

---

Vinland Sagas and Archaeological Discoveries

The Vinland sagas—Greinlendinger Saga and EricsSaga—are examined as primary sources detailing Norse exploration of North America. These texts narrate Leif Erikson's voyages to regions they named Hetluland (Stone Slab Land), Markland (Forest Land), and Vinland (Wineland).

Greg Jenner [20:15]: "According to the saga of the Greenlanders, the first person to sight land to the west of Greenland is a merchant called Bjrdn."

Dr. Elena Barraclough [22:02]: "They found Norse-style buildings at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, validating the sagas' accounts."

Archaeological evidence, particularly the site at L'Anse aux Meadows, provides tangible proof of Norse presence in North America around the year 1021 CE. Techniques like dendrochronology (tree-ring dating) have confirmed the timeline of these explorations.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [46:46]: "Dendrochronology allows us to date when the wood was cut down, confirming the presence of Norse in 1021."

---

Vikings and Indigenous Peoples of North America

Interactions between the Norse explorers and Indigenous peoples are dissected, revealing a complex mix of trade, cultural exchange, and conflict. The sagas depict both cooperative and violent encounters, reflecting the varied nature of these early meetings.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [32:00]: "Sometimes they're trading—furs and skins for yogurt and weapons—but other times, encounters turn violent without provocation."

The term "skrylingar" is discussed, illustrating the Norse perception of Indigenous populations as "wretched" or "puny," highlighting the misunderstandings and tensions inherent in these first contacts.

---

Modern Legacy of Vikings and Leif Erikson

The episode delves into how Leif Erikson's legacy has been shaped and sometimes distorted in modern times. Particularly in the 19th century, Scandinavian immigrants in the Upper Midwest of the United States popularized Leif Erikson as a cultural hero, partly as a way to assert their heritage and predate the more widely recognized exploits of Columbus.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [38:34]: "Leif Erikson became fashionable in the 19th century as Scandinavian settlers wanted to emphasize their heritage and Viking exploration."

This revival of Viking lore contributed to various myths and erroneous theories about Viking influence in North America, some of which persist today.

---

Insights from Dr. Elena Barraclough

Dr. Barraclough emphasizes the importance of recognizing the everyday individuals of the Viking Age, who often remain obscure in historical narratives dominated by larger-than-life figures.

Dr. Elena Barraclough [52:00]: "Big names like Leif and Eric are well-known, but the everyday people are just as interesting and crucial to understanding the Viking Age."

She shares fascinating details about artifacts and findings from Norse settlements, underscoring the blend of historical evidence and cultural storytelling that shapes our understanding of this era.

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Conclusion and Quick-Fire Quiz

The episode concludes with a light-hearted quick-fire quiz, testing Kyle's newly acquired knowledge about Leif Erikson and Viking history. This segment serves both as an entertaining recap and a reinforcement of the key points discussed throughout the episode.

Greg Jenner [54:57]: "Question one. How many years ago did Leif Erikson probably die?"

Kyle Smith [54:58]: "1,000."

The successful completion of the quiz underscores the educational aspect of the podcast, seamlessly blending humor with historical insight.

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Notable Quotes

• Greg Jenner [04:15]: "It's because Harald united the kingdoms. And so Bluetooth brings people together."
• Kyle Smith [03:18]: "When I think of history in school, I remember the module where you have to build a castle..."
• Dr. Elena Barraclough [09:07]: "When we get into the middle of the 9th century, it's much more about settling and more farming."
• Kyle Smith [55:20]: "Why are you saying buddy?"
• Greg Jenner [57:33]: "You've got to get back to Leif Erikson."

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Final Thoughts

You're Dead to Me masterfully intertwines comedy with historical scholarship, making complex subjects accessible and engaging. This episode on Leif Erikson not only sheds light on the achievements and myths surrounding the Viking Age but also invites listeners to reconsider long-held stereotypes and appreciate the nuanced realities of these early explorers.

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Listening Links:
Subscribe and listen to more episodes of You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds.

Transcript

[Kyle Smith]

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[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are braving the brisk waters of the North Atlantic and following in the wake of Leif Erikson, the Medieval Norseman who might have been the first European to visit America. He probably and to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian, writer and broadcaster based at Bath Spa University where she's Senior Lecturer in Environmental history. Her research focuses on the cultures, literatures and languages of the medieval north, particularly Viking history and the Old Norse sagas. She's the author of various books including a new one, Embers of the Hidden Histories of the Viking Age. It's Dr. Elena Barraclough. Welcome Elena.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Thank you Greg. Lovely to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner he's a multi talented actor, comedian and broadcaster as well as his fab stage performances in the Government in Inspector. You'll also recognize him from hosting TV's the Great British Sewing Bee or starring in the award winning sitcoms Ghosts, Stathlets, Flats and Man Like Mobeen or delighting the nation on series 15 of Taskmaster, it is the amazing Kyle Smith by. No. Welcome to the show, Kyle.

[Kyle Smith]

Hello. I feel like I've been slightly blindsided because I didn't know you were a doctor.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

I'm not the useful sort of doctor. I can't. If you have a heart attack, you're on your own.

[Kyle Smith]

No, that's fine. Yeah, I know what to do. But I would have treated you with more respect.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It's a Viking doctor. We don't deserve any respect.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

You're good.

[Kyle Smith]

All right, Cool, cool, cool.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm not a doctor, so you can treat me like scum.

[Kyle Smith]

All right, we'll do.

[Greg Jenner]

You've not been on the show before, Kyle.

[Kyle Smith]

No, I haven't.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you feel about history? Something you enjoyed at school?

[Kyle Smith]

When I think of history in school, I remember the module where you have to build a castle, and mine was going so badly that I turned it into a dilapidated ruined castle.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Kyle Smith]

And that wasn't what I started out to make, but then I just went on clip art and made some pictures of fire and then printed it out and stuck it to the front.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah, that's what I think. Sorry. Yes, that's how I feel about history. Does that answer your question?

[Greg Jenner]

Pretty much, yes.

[Kyle Smith]

Very, very good.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so what do you know about the man, the myth, the legend, Leif Eriksson?

[Kyle Smith]

I know that. That's who we're talking about today.

[Greg Jenner]

Great.

[Kyle Smith]

And that is the end. I used to have an Ericsson phone when I was in school. Is that any. Is that anything?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There's Bluetooth. Named after a Viking called Harold Bluetooth.

[Kyle Smith]

Really?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. Look at it. It's hb. There you go.

[Kyle Smith]

When someone asks me what I've learned today, that's on the list.

[Greg Jenner]

And do you know why that is?

[Kyle Smith]

Not just because it was first.

[Greg Jenner]

It's because Harold Bluetooth united the kingdoms. And so Bluetooth brings people together.

[Kyle Smith]

Harold.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Harald Bluetooth.

[Kyle Smith]

Hang on, you said something different. Harald.

[Greg Jenner]

Harald.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

You've got to say it with an A if you're going to be authentically Viking.

[Kyle Smith]

Right, so it's spelled with an O, but said with an A.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No, no, no. You can spell it with an A. Harald Haralder. If you're.

[Kyle Smith]

You've gone. You've gone absolutely nuts now.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Bluetooth, that's all you got to remember. That was his nickname.

[Kyle Smith]

United the kingdoms.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

Is that why it's the United Kingdom? No.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our listeners will know. About today's subject. And even if the name Leif Eriksson is not familiar, you might have heard that a Viking was the first person to probably reach North America. You might be sitting there thinking, what about Christopher Columbus? Well, we'll get to him. But if you're listening from North America, hello. Maybe you know that in the USA and Canada, 9 October is Leif Erikson Day. He gets a day, which of course is celebrated in a much loved episode of SpongeBob SquarePants, an important document. He also pops up in Netflix's Vikings Valhalla. Leif Erikson. That is not spongebob and the Norse presence in North America. It's referenced with a Viking character in the US remake of your sitcom Ghosts.

[Kyle Smith]

Haven't seen it.

[Greg Jenner]

That's fine. You were in the good one. That's brilliant.

[Kyle Smith]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

The American one is fine. It's nice. It's birthday.

[Kyle Smith]

When you say he gets a day, as in not his birthday, just another.

[Greg Jenner]

Just a ceremonial day. Yeah. October 9th. So there we go.

[Kyle Smith]

So, Leif Erikson, how do I get one of those?

[Greg Jenner]

You've got to discover a continent, ideally.

[Kyle Smith]

All right, easy.

[Greg Jenner]

So Leif Erikson shows up in pop culture. There's novels. But how do we separate the truth and the lies from Leif's life? Did Vikings really make it to North America or is this just a big story? And how many people do you need to kill before you're kicked out of Norway? Let's find out. Kael, we are talking about the Vikings. What do you think of when I say the word Viking?

[Kyle Smith]

When people die and then they get pushed off in that little. On that raft, and then they light the arrows.

[Greg Jenner]

Ooh, you're thinking of the burning boat burial.

[Kyle Smith]

That's exactly what I'm thinking of, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Elena, is that a myth?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No, no. I mean, there is a version of that. It's described in an Arabic text by someone called Ibn fadl. And he does talk about this Viking boat burial. Funnily enough, not as common as you might think.

[Kyle Smith]

Really?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. What about the horned helmets? Everyone mentions the horned helmets.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

Tell me more.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, they didn't exist.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, not right.

[Kyle Smith]

You've just told me that something I've never heard of doesn't exist.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, it's a bit of an anticlimax, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Elena, what are we when we talk about the Viking age? What is it? How long is it?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, well, we can fix ourselves chronologically. If we think of the Viking age as spanning at least from around 750.50ce roughly up to about 1100 CE. And it begins in the Scandinavian homelands. So we're thinking Denmark, Norway and Sweden. It involves violence.

[Kyle Smith]

Hang on, why is Finland not in there?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Oh, because actually that's not a Scandinavian country. It's Nordic. They're there, but not quite in the same way. But yeah, there's lots of violence, there's conquest, but there's also trading and exploration and settlement. So you end up with this Norse diaspora that encompasses parts of the British Isles and Western Europe, Mediterranean, what's now Russia and Ukraine, and then all the way to Constantinople. They end up in Baghdad. Then in the other direction, they go all the way across the North Atlantic and they settle the Pharaohs, Iceland, Greenland, and they make it a little bit further, as I think we're going to be.

[Greg Jenner]

And of course, Britain and Ireland and all that. You know, they get all around the place. Vikings.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

They really do.

[Greg Jenner]

And there's a sort of bit of a myth of kind of blonde blokes in a boat, isn't there?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah, there is some blonde blokes.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, no, I know what you're talking about. Horned helmets.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

The bit that comes down the front.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Of the nose and then the big.

[Kyle Smith]

And then the horn.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. I feel we shouldn't be perpetuating the stereotype, but, yeah, now I get it. Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

But it's not true. Not true. Please unlearn it.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Forget that.

[Kyle Smith]

No, it's kind of too late.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know why we call them Vikings, Kyle?

[Kyle Smith]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Fair and honest answer. Thank you, Elena. Okay, there's no place called Vikingland.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No, no. There is a place called Vik in Norway, which is sort of might be related to the word. There's an old Norse. So that's language that the Vikings spoke. There's an old Norse version of the word Vikingr, which is someone who's essentially a raider. There's also an old English version of the word. So the language that was spoken in the British Isles, or at least parts of the British Isles at that time, witching. And again, that means sort of pirate. There's a noun. So you go off on a Viking, you go off on a raid. So it's basically a seaborne raider. But not everyone who lived during the Viking age in that cultural context is a raider. So they're not all Vikings. And even raiders are not always raiding. And sometimes. Sometimes they call their children Vikings.

[Kyle Smith]

What's the raider doing if he's not raiding?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Farming. Mostly trading. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Fishing.

[Kyle Smith]

Farming. Raider.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, mostly farming. You've got to eat before you can go and steal all that.

[Kyle Smith]

I'd bully that guy.

[Greg Jenner]

So most Vikings aren't Vikings.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Most Vikings aren't Vikings.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. And so again, it's a bit like the horned helmets. That idea in the 19th century gets expanded and Viking becomes a sort of catch all term for that early medieval Nordic diaspora.

[Greg Jenner]

And the Viking age, we tend to sort of end about 1100, so about 900 years ago. So, you know, and today we're talking about a thousand years ago. So that's where we are. So the fact that they're making these voyages for trading as well as raiding, obviously the stuff that Kael prefers. But they're settling too, right?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. When we get into the middle of the 9th century, it's much more about settling and more farming. Your favorite thing.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about Leif Erikson himself, the star of today's episode. Who's Leif Erikson? You know, Wenzie Brothers born And so.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Okay, so Leif, he's probably born in, I don't know, something like 975, 980 in Iceland. He's a character mostly in two of these sagas. One's called Greinlendinger Saga, which means the saga of the Greenlanders, and the other one is EricsSagreuide, which is the saga of Eric the Reds. Now together they're known as the Vinland sagas because Vinland is the old Norse word for that part of North America, the edge of the continent that the Norse. Spoiler alert. Do reach around the year 1000 or so. And Leif seems to be a very big part of that.

[Kyle Smith]

But I can't believe you spot that for me.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

But Leif, his dad is called Erik the Red, but he's Leif Erikson because of that. So they don't have surnames, they're just named after their most.

[Greg Jenner]

It's patrilineal. Right. You take your father's name.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, Eric's son.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, son of Eric's son. Son of Eric. Yeah, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

So your mobile phone, your Sony Erickson phone. Yeah, its dad was called Eric.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There you go.

[Kyle Smith]

Wow, that's cute.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. But Leif also has some siblings and so we have Thorkettel and Thorstein. So they'd also be Erikson. And he has a sister called Freydis, so she'd be Freydis, Erik's dotir. So. Because she's the daughter of Eric. But Leif is a pretty. So he's. He. The saga is like him. He's described as promising, tall, handsome, moderate in his behavior in stark contrast to his father.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay. All right. So he's tall, strong, handsome, got good connections. Yeah, he's a good lad. So can we trust the sources? Can we say they're historical documents with real people in them?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes, the historian's answer is depending on your definition of historical documents.

[Greg Jenner]

Good historian's answer.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There you go. Just covering all the basics.

[Kyle Smith]

How do you decide what's real and what's. If there's so much of it mixed together, how do you decide what's real and what's not? Just on, like, what you like.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, I mean, you're looking for other evidence. So, for example, the Vinland sagas, these two sagas featuring Leif, they were actually the basis for archaeologists in the 60s realizing that actually the Norse had reached the edge of the North American continent. And then they find the archeological evidence. And sometimes you've got to think of them in a different sense. So it's not just a case of, okay, let's sift out the history from the fiction. We've got to think of them as essentially a kind of cultural storytelling, remnants of how this particular culture thought about the world and their place within it. And in fact, the word saga comes from an old Norse verb, at sa, to say, to tell.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've heard that Eric is the father of Leif Erikson. Eric the red. Is he red haired? Is he a ginger?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

I mean, there were parts.

[Greg Jenner]

Or is it blood? Is he covered in blood?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Sort of. More likely, I suspect, if we're. Yeah, I mean, Eric.

[Kyle Smith]

It's ketchup.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, it'll be because of the ketchup.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So he's born in Norway and then he's forced to leave Norway because of some killings. How they put it in the stock.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, how many killings? Is some killing, Elena?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

More than one? I can't remember. It's not good. Yeah. The problem is. So he's outlawed and he goes off to Iceland, settles there, and he marries Theod Hildr, his wife, and they have a family. But then it's not long before he's in trouble again. And this is such an embarrassing story. This is not how you want to be remembered, but basically he gets into an argument with his neighbor about some bench boards which are kind of carved decorative panels, and everything goes downhill very fast. And once again he finds himself outlawed, this time from Iceland because of some killings.

[Kyle Smith]

And how many people lived in that house next door?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, there's enslaved people there as well. And I think that particular. And that is a whole other story in The Viking age, that people. That's huge. Huge proportion of Viking population.

[Greg Jenner]

But thralls, right? We call them thralls.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Thralls, yeah. Or ambot, if it's a woman. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then. So once again now, this time, he has settled to what's called lesser outlawry, which is the idea that you have to go away for three years and then you can come back and as long as you stay away.

[Kyle Smith]

Nah, I want to be banished.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, it is. I mean, you. I honestly, I think you could have gone off quite happily with Eric, because he then goes off and have some wonderful adventures. He decides he's going to go off west from Iceland to Greenland. So he's going to go and have some fun and see if he can.

[Greg Jenner]

For three years.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

For three years.

[Kyle Smith]

What I want to know is how in the 1000, you know what a year is.

[Greg Jenner]

They do sort of keep track, don't they?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Right. So because of these oral stories, this oral narrative tradition is actually really, really strong. We know what year Iceland starts to be settled in because a big volcano goes up and there's ash all over Iceland. And then the settlement begins on top of that. And you can look at the Greenland ice cores and count up the layers and see when that ash appears. So we know it's about the year 871, but then in texts that the Icelanders are writing in the 12th century, they basically pick exactly the same date, and they say, I know this is when Iceland started being settled. So it was sort of 870 years, they say, after the birth of Christ, when a king in East Anglia is murdered by the Vikings. And they say, I know this because of this person who had a really good memory, this person who's very reliable, and this person who's my uncle.

[Greg Jenner]

Not reliable and not memory.

[Kyle Smith]

Is that enough?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So they've actually got a really good sense of that timekeeping. By the time they're writing, they've also converted to Christianity. And so there's a lot of that sense of.

[Kyle Smith]

Because of the church bells. They know what time.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

They know what time. There you go. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So Eric the Red was exiled twice. Second time for an argument about some bench boards. You seem like a very chill guy, Kael, but have you ever got into a beef with a neighbor over a lawnmower or something?

[Kyle Smith]

No, can't have it in the first place. Get off. Hit your own. No, I don't think so. My neighbors recently painted their fence, and some of it's bled through. Oh, and it looks horrible on my side.

[Greg Jenner]

So what are you gonna do?

[Kyle Smith]

Some kill ins? I've scheduled some killings in the calendar for October. I don't know what I'm gonna do actually. I haven't thought about it, but every time I look at it, I'm like, disgusting.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

You could compose some verse. That's the Viking way. Some really rude verses about them.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Which I mean, they can technically kill you for that.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna say, if you give someone an insult and it sticks, that's a crime. In north society.

[Kyle Smith]

Sticks as in everyone else's.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So if you give someone a nickname and everyone else starts using it, that becomes a crime. If the person doesn't like it, it's pretty good. Right. So, okay, so Eric the Red exiled to Greenland. We call it Greenland because of Eric the Red.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. So he goes out there, he's very specifically sort of like the southwestern side of the coastline. That's important because most of Iceland, most of Greenland is covered in ice. It's about 2 million square kilometers in area, isn't it? It's about like what, nine times the size of Great Britain, so. But most of it is. Yeah, it's covered by this ice sheet in the center and much of it's in the Arctic Circle. Obviously not great for settlement, particularly because, as we have learned, Vikings, farmers, they like that they can't just live on the ice. So the interesting bit is that Eric goes to these sort of fjords of south west Greenland, which are much more habitable. And it's, it's a period in history where the weather's a little bit more favorable, the temperatures are a bit higher, and there's also other good things to be found in Greenland, like walrus, and specifically walrus ivory, which is like huge, lucrative and will go for huge prices. And so Eric thinks, yep, this works. So according to the later texts, when his three years are up, he goes back to Iceland, he collects his friends and his family and he says, come on, let's go off and settle. Settle Greenland. And that's about what, 985 and he.

[Greg Jenner]

Calls it Greenland to get them to come.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, it's so green.

[Greg Jenner]

It's so lovely.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

But the thing is, it is green. So I've done a lot of research out there and that's, you know, you go in the summer, very nice. You can go skinny dipping up that, you know, it's like. Yeah, but which I have done with a caribou hunter. That is my. Okay, there you go.

[Greg Jenner]

Hang on.

[Kyle Smith]

Can you also go swimming? Can you only go skinny?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

You can only Go skinny. But, but, but, but. So in the winter, the problem is the winters are really long and harsh. And of course, Greenland is best known for the ice. And so that's why people think he was lying. But he wasn't lying.

[Kyle Smith]

Is that one of those places that have like three hours of sunlight in the winter?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. Depending on how far north you go. I mean, they'd be lucky to have the Arctic.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Because two thirds of it's in the Arctic Circle. So you're properly.

[Kyle Smith]

I don't like the sound of that at all.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Go in the summer where it's pretty much always day and quite nice, really. Yeah, you have a lovely time there.

[Greg Jenner]

So Eric the Red is a pagan.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

He's not a Christian.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

His son Leif is a Christian.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So a really interesting moment in history where the Vikings convert over and Leif is one of the absolute first.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, his wife as well, Eric's wife. Very interestingly, she stops wanting to share a bed with him when she converts to Christianity and.

[Kyle Smith]

Cause of all the blood. Cause of all the catch up.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, but he's really cross about that. The Sarkis actually said he was not pleased about it. But also they found her church. So we know it's very much this cusp period, but Leif has a very important role to play.

[Greg Jenner]

How do we know North America is settled by Vikings? Or at least what do the sagas say?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So the sagas. So we're back with those two Vinland sagas. The saga of the Greenlanders, the saga of Erik the Reds. They give slightly different accounts. According to the saga of the Greenlanders, the first person to site land to the west of Greenland is a merchant called Bjrdn. He gets blown off course. Often discoveries happen because people have just got lost at sea, but he doesn't explore it. And the sagas are not very pleased about this. Basically everyone criticizes him because he's shown a lack of curiosity, which is sort of not a Viking thing to do. And then later Leif goes back and finds the land.

[Kyle Smith]

When you say not very pleased, is that.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Did they kill him?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No, he's fine. He does it, but it's just like, oh, okay, you didn't set foot on there.

[Kyle Smith]

All right.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Interesting.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, passive aggressive, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So sagas are extremely passive aggressive. Yeah. They'll just say she slightly changed color and that means she's absolutely furious.

[Kyle Smith]

Wow.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, it's impressive.

[Kyle Smith]

I used to work for a lady who ran a children's entertainment company and every time she hated something she'd go, that's interesting.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There you go.

[Greg Jenner]

There is a theory that understatement comes from Norse literature.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Because we do it a lot in. In English, British culture, in sort of comedy. We kind of go, this is fine. You know, and the kind of meme of the flames behind this, there's a theory that the Vikings invented that kind of.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

And it is really funny. So someone will. Again, typical feud type thing. Someone will have, I don't know, a spear thrust into his guts and he'll say, oh, I see that they are making the blades in this style these days. So it's like. Yeah, the cooler you can play it, the more vital you are, really.

[Greg Jenner]

So the saga of Eric the Red says that Leif is blown off course and first sights America, North America. The other story says someone else.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. Sees it, but then Leif still.

[Greg Jenner]

And then Leif heads out.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've got two slightly different versions.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And this happens in the year 1000.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Very nice and memorable for us. Really easy dates. Remember the year 1000, they had a millennium bug. Yeah. A cockroach just on the ship.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

They did think the world was going to come to an end. That was a huge thing.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

World year 1000, that was it. The Antichrist was gone.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It's called millenarianism, which is quite hard to say.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

I always thought that was to do with hats. It was quite disappointing.

[Greg Jenner]

Moving on. Okay, so 1,000, Leif Erikson has found, or at least explored a new land. Yes. So what does he find?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, I should say not just he, but his followers. And the main discoveries, once again in both sagas, are made by enslaved people. So it's very much so. One is called Tyrkir and the others are two sort of Scottish slaves called Haki and Hekja. And they basically find so. So, well, before they get to Vinland, they find other lands, and one is very sort of rocky and bare, and they call that Hetluland, which means stone slabland. Then they come down the coast and then they find another that has lots of trees and animals, and they call that Markland, which means forest land. And then they come to this region which they call Vinland because of sort of the wild grapes. The weather is fine, the winters are mild, there's salmon, there's all sorts of nice things. And they think, great, this works. And so they build some temporary houses there.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, lovely. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

And they call them Leifsbudir, which means kind of like Leifs booths, Leif's houses.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So we've got slab land, forest land, and wineland. Which one would you want to live in?

[Kyle Smith]

I will take the forest land, please.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, interesting.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah, I'm not really a wine boy.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Kyle Smith]

No more spirits. And you're more likely to find spirits in the forest.

[Greg Jenner]

They haven't invented spirits yet. I'm afraid that comes later.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

They do have mead, if that's any good.

[Kyle Smith]

Honey doesn't sound good.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It's very sweet.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, yes, it does sound good.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There you go. Mead. That's all right.

[Kyle Smith]

I'll take some of that. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So we've heard about people getting blown off course. We've heard about shipwrecks. Kael in Taskmaster, you built a beautiful egg boat.

[Kyle Smith]

Yes, I did, didn't I?

[Greg Jenner]

You were a master shipbuilder. Yeah. So could you talk me through how to build a Viking longship?

[Kyle Smith]

Well, what you want to do is get some of your neighbor's decorative. What's it called?

[Greg Jenner]

The bench boards.

[Kyle Smith]

Bench boards. And you want to put those. You want to turn them the other way around so your neighbor can't tell that you used his. And then knock it together, get some mead for the journey. Maybe a pig.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Kyle Smith]

Cause you don't know how long you're gonna be at sea.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Kyle Smith]

What else do you need?

[Greg Jenner]

How are you propelling? What's the propulsion mechanism? Pig.

[Kyle Smith]

More boards.

[Greg Jenner]

More boards.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah. So we use the boards like oars.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. You're using oars.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah. Because I imagine the water's quite cold.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

So I'm not popping my hand in there?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No.

[Kyle Smith]

Right. So. But that can. We can also use some of that to cool the mead. Cool the mead, wife. That's my plan.

[Greg Jenner]

Tell me about Viking ship building. Cause they are renowned.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Oh, yeah, they are amazing.

[Kyle Smith]

You mean it wasn't exactly what I said?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, like raft with a pig. So you've got these. Well, for a start, they're propelled by sails as well as by oars. And that is very important because when you're in the middle of the North Atlantic, you might need the odd sail. And rather than your raft, you've got to try sort of clinker built style. So you've got boards, you've got planks, and then you're overlapping them. So they make these very supple, beautiful boats with very shallow bottoms, which means if you want to go raiding, you can sail them into very shallow bays. And then if you want to go across the North Atlantic, you're going to need something a bit bigger. And those are boats that then you can Fit your family in, your followers, your livestock, possibly. You can try pigs, but I will. I'd go for goats and sheep.

[Kyle Smith]

So these are two different types of.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, there's multiple different types of boats. And actually some of them survive. So you were talking about this, the Viking flaming boat burial. Not always flaming, but you do get Viking boat burials that do survive. So there's one from Oseberg in Norway from about the year834.2 very high status women were found in it. And they've got these lovely, curly, beautiful prows and sterns. You can see what that would have looked like. Another one from Gokstad, also in Norway, a few decades later. And that one actually contained a very kind of stereotypical Viking warrior who'd been killed violently. And actually that one was reconstructed to go from Bergen in Norway all the way to Chicago at the end of the 19th century. So we know those sorts can go across the ocean, but it's still pretty cold.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. There's no cabins, there's no lower deck. No, Just benches.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's open sky. So if it's raining, if it's snow.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You're there with your furs.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. You're there with your. And the furs are probably wet. I mean, there's also, you know, a lot of sun. Too much sun and not enough wind. Also not great. And you can end up just stuck there in the middle.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm going to ask the obvious question here. How do you go to. How do you get to the toilet? Crossing the Atlantic, it's gonna take weeks.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

What's the. What's the sanitation facility?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So, from my friends who have sort of gone in reconstructed boats, it seems very much like over the side. If it's calm enough with a shipmate clinging onto you.

[Greg Jenner]

All right.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

I'm assuming if it's less calm, maybe a bucket. But then you still got to do something.

[Greg Jenner]

But you need it. You need a poo buddy.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

You do need a poo buddy, apparently. Yeah. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry.

[Kyle Smith]

Why are you saying buddy?

[Greg Jenner]

Because you've got to put your bum over the side.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And the boat will be, you know, being tossed in the waves. You're gonna fall out, so you need someone to hold on to, hang on to you.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So I would be, you know, hands on your shoulders, Kyle, where you are.

[Kyle Smith]

What about a construction. Can you hold on? Hold on to that?

[Greg Jenner]

Pretty low. Very low sides. The old Norse boat.

[Kyle Smith]

I don't like being watched.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's. Let's get back to Leif Erikson. So we have the two sagas, the Vinland sagas, they don't say very much about him. Him after the journey.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No, not a huge. So there are other sagas that he gets small mentions in, you know, so there's the. The saga of Olaf Tryggvason about one of the great Christianizing kings of Norway. Leif is there, but it's very much like Olaf told Leif to go out and convert Green into Christianity. There's another saga where he's very much the person who is the most important person in Greenland. But then he sort of seems to have died by around 1025.

[Greg Jenner]

We know about his family though. Yes, Leif's. He's got siblings.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, he's got siblings, half siblings, something. Yeah, we're not quite sure, but yeah, exactly. And they, even after Leif comes back to Greenland, then according to the sagas seem to be making voyages out again to Vinland, as they call it. So there's one led by Leif's brother Thorvald, doesn't end well for him. Another by first name though. Yeah, it's a good. It's a lovely name, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So Thorvaldr. And then he's got another one, Thorstein and Spain I'm not into. No, not. But it's like Thorstone. So like the God.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, Thorstein.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, they quite like it.

[Kyle Smith]

Okay. Yeah, I preferred the first one.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Okay, we'll stick. Yeah. And then there's ones led by what was his sister in law, Gur, with her new husband, Karl, Stephanie. And then there's another one either led by. Or at least she is there, depending on the version by his sister, half sister Freydis.

[Greg Jenner]

And she's. How am I gonna put this delicately? Terrifying.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

She?

[Kyle Smith]

Raydette.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Oh yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean Raydette doesn't even come close to her.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Okay. But here we're talking very specifically about the saga of the Greenlanders because this is one of these really interesting things where we've got oral traditions that end up in these sagas. But her character, it depends on which saga we're looking at. Saga of Greenlanders. Yeah, Absolutely terrifying. She makes, makes a deal with two Norwegian brothers to sail to Vinland and they're there to gather timber and resources. But she ends up getting her followers and specifically her husband to kill all the men in on the other boats and no one will kill. So she gets into an argument with them and she wants the bigger of Leif's boothir and she wants the Leif's booths and she wants. She wants kind of all the resources and she's just not nighed.

[Kyle Smith]

She knows what she likes.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

She does. The problem is it gets. Yeah, she also. So no one. There were women in the other party as well, on the other ship, and no one will kill them. And so she actually. She says, hand me an ax, or literally put an ax in my hand. She finishes them off. And it just says in the saga. And so it was done. Horrible.

[Greg Jenner]

Freydis in one saga is a sort of psychopathic Tarantino character.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Horrible. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Then the other saga, she's not nearly as terrified. No, she's still quite hardcore.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

She's hardcore. She's totally badass.

[Greg Jenner]

She's amazing. She's a radette.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's. So she doesn't lead the expedition in this one, but she's on the expedition and then there's a violent encounter.

[Kyle Smith]

She's exhausted.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Oh, yeah. But, well. So they get into an altercation with the local population that they meet there. And so basically all the methods run away. And there's a weapon on the floor from one of the people who's been killed, and she picks it up to face the sort of indigenous people who are coming towards them. And by the way, she is heavily pregnant at this point and she bares her breast and she slaps the sword against it. And we're not entirely sure why, but basically the indigenous people are so terrified, they then run away.

[Kyle Smith]

That would scare me, actually.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, heavily pregnant ladies with a sword.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

There's a part of me that's running away instantly, automatically. Just like, you know, that's an intimidating image.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It really is. And so she is properly badass. I really like her in that way.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's Freydis. So raidet, or merciless killer, one of the two you choose. We've touched on a really important point. You said you know the locals. So when we talk about the discovery of new lands, obviously they're not new land people have been living there for 25,000 years. Indigenous peoples in North America, in Canada, the first nations people. So what did the sagas say about these interactions between the Norse and the native people of Newfoundland? Is it Newfoundland?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, well, and further south. Yeah, exactly. And this is really interesting because it's possible this is the first time, if we think of the circle as a. If we think of the world as a circle, this is the first time you see the two sides culturally meeting. Those are the first encounters we've got and it's sort of pretty typical. So depending on the saga Depending on the episode. Sometimes they're trading and they. They particularly. So the indigenous people, particularly like the red cloth and the dairy products and the weapons. But the Norse are like, now we'll. We'll keep hold of the weapons, thank you. And in return, they give the yogurt. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You enjoy that. But then they give. They give the Norse. The Norse give them furs and skins. So it's actually very much like what happens later on when you. You enter trade. Not necessarily, because in other encounters, they basically all goes horribly wrong. And there's a lot of violence and people get killed, sometimes entirely without provocation. One episode, it's like they just found three people sleeping, so they killed them and there's. Come on.

[Kyle Smith]

Not in. Asleep.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, it's not. It's not great. It's really not. And it's telling. They describe them. They. The word they use is skrylinger. And skryling means sort of wretched or puny. So that's how the Norse are looking at these people and they lump them all together. But we're probably talking about, you know, the Innu of Labrador, Markland, that forest land, and the Beothuk of Newfoundland. And then we've got around the Gulf of St. Lawrence, which is probably that sort of southern extremity of where they get to. We've got the Algonquins and the Iroquois. So we've got those various groups that the Norse do seem to encounter. But ultimately, when they leave for the last time in the sagas, they say, we found a land of fine resources, but we won't be able to settle here. We won't be able to use it.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's the story told by the sagas, these two sagas. The Vinland Collection, which is Erik the Red saga and the Greenland saga. Yes.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yep.

[Greg Jenner]

Kael.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Is this making sense so far? Anything you want to clarify?

[Kyle Smith]

I mean, there was a point just now where you said a bunch of things and the one thing I heard was Labrador. And that's what I was thinking about throughout. You said a whole bunch of other stuff and I was like, no idea if these are even English words.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

That's cool. It's like when I give lectures to students, that same glaze work. It's fine. I'm used to it.

[Greg Jenner]

In your head, you're just imagining a really cute dog.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, what are those dogs doing?

[Greg Jenner]

Do we have any more evidence for the life of Leif?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, basically those sagas.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So we know he's kind of out there. According to one king Saga, we know that he's a prominent person in Greenland according to another saga. And then by there's a saga called the Saga of the Sworn Brothers or Fossbreith saga. By that war. One is probably set in around 1025. Someone goes off to Greenland, but by then, another good name for you. It's Thorket, who's Leif's son. So he's Thorkell, Leif's son, who's living where Erik the Red lived and then when Leif lived. So it looks like that Leif has probably died by this time and his son has taken over as the most prominent man. From what we know of the sagas, he's got to have died somewhere between around 1018 and 1025. And that's purely because in one of them he's there in Greenland and in the next it's his son and there's no sign of him. So he's probably gone.

[Greg Jenner]

Definitely dead by 1025. Yeah, it looks like it a thousand years ago. A good, nice, memorable number.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There we go. Let's stick with that one. Yep.

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[Greg Jenner]

Open your free iHeart app and search Amazing Wildlife and start listening. So we've killed off Leif Erikson, Right. We don't know how he dies, but he dies in 1025. We think ish.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Ish.

[Greg Jenner]

Probably of, I don't know, old age or whatever. Although, you know, maybe he was killed.

[Kyle Smith]

Sorry, I've got to put this in my calendar. We can't say ish. I need a date.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

By 10:25, someone else is in charge of. So he's definitely dead by then.

[Kyle Smith]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

So let's agree 1025, but it can't be that.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, we're not in the right period of history to be really specific.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about the afterlife of Leif. The afterlife?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

The afterlife.

[Greg Jenner]

That's so good. Thank you. What happens to his story? You know, he's dead, but what happens to his story in the modern day?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well, so this is quite interesting because the first English speaking settlers of the US and Canada want to emphasize their English roots. And we know that Columbus landing on the Caribbean island of Hispaniola takes hold as sort of an alternative origin myth for the US after the War of Independence particularly. But Columbus also has never actually set foot in North America.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So then the story of Leif Erikson gets really popular in the 19th century. And part of that is because Protestant U.S. citizens, they're not. Columbus is a little bit too Catholic for them. So what seems to be happening is Viking gets conflated with the idea of Anglo Saxons. It implies a sort of ancestral link to modern white Americans. So it's this sort of quite uncomfortable racial myth of white Anglo Saxon colonizers bringing civilization to indigenous populations around the globe. You know, it's the classic story. But something interesting also happens because we've got Scandinavian settlers Yeah. Particularly in the upper Midwest.

[Greg Jenner]

Minnesota.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And they're very keen to emphasize the fact that medieval Norse explorers make it to the edge of North America way before Columbus, even in. The problem is that in reality, of course, we're talking about Newfoundland and Labrador and Baffin Island. We're not talking about Minnesota or Boston, but they'd very much like to believe that the Vikings visited there, too.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Leif Ericsson becomes fashionable for. Yeah, for a bunch of white people in the 19th century.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

What's quite interesting is that people start looking for new ways to put Leif Erikson into the story, and they start coming up with sort of quite bonkers theories. We've got a little mini quiz for you here, Kael. Love it. Which of these was not a genuine theory argued by people in the past? Number one, Christopher Columbus, was actually a Norse villander. So a Viking who sailed back to Europe and changed his name to Christopher Columbus. So is that true? Yes or no? Number two, strange metal objects found in Minnesota were medieval Norse axe heads. That's the second theory. And number three, Vikings got to North America before indigenous Americans. So before. I mean, we're talking 25,000 years ago, but before that. And they were the ones who built the mounds in Mississippi and the Ohio river valleys. So which of those three do you not think is a true theory that was made by people in the past?

[Kyle Smith]

The last one.

[Greg Jenner]

Interesting. I'm so sorry, Kael. We've actually tricked you here. These are all theories that have been put forward. None of them was not a theory. Sorry.

[Kyle Smith]

I shall have my vengeance. Actually, as you read them all out, I thought all of them. And then when I asked you, when.

[Greg Jenner]

I lied to you.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah, you lied. I thought, oh, okay. No, maybe it's not. And what's happened here is you've done me.

[Greg Jenner]

I have.

[Kyle Smith]

I've been done.

[Greg Jenner]

I've done you over. Like Freydis. Yeah. Yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

Well, look, at least now I know an hour in that you're not to be trusted.

[Greg Jenner]

I am very unreliable. Yeah. So the axe heads found in Minnesota actually turned out to be made by a tobacco company in the 20th century, and they were tobacco cutters. So that's fun. But, yeah, people claimed that Christopher Columbus was a Viking and that the Vikings had got there before the indigenous peoples of America, which is ludicrous. So there we go. Eleanor, tell us about the other frauds and fakes and mistakes.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. So these are more interesting in a way, because it's people basically wanting to create a history that they believe is true. It's sort of fake it till you make it sort of thing. One of my absolute favorites is the Kensington Stone, which was found wrapped in some tree roots on a farm in Minnesota in 1898. So, funnily enough, the farm belonged to a Swedish immigrant called Olaf Ulman. And the runes claim to date to, I think, 1362. And they start 8 Goths and 22 Norwegians on an exploration journey from Vinland to the west. And so essentially they are telling another story. Problem is, it's a total lie. We have plenty of rooms that are not a total lie and do come from the Viking age. These are not any of those. So very conveniently, a very similar form of runic script is still being used in Sweden at this time in exactly the area that Olaf comes from.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. So it's like.

[Greg Jenner]

So he went to Rune School.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

He basically went to Rune School. And he's got a big library and it's full of these sorts of books.

[Greg Jenner]

He kind of writes fan fiction. Is it romantic? Is he trying to be like, oh, isn't this cute? Or is he genuinely trying to pull the wall?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

I think he's trying to pull. Well, so I think he is. But then later on, someone else from the area. Oh, yeah. This was basically meant to be the biggest joke in history. It was like a ha ha. And then it sort of got a bit out of hand and suddenly everyone's believing it and they're like, well, I guess we're in for the long haul here.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. He had to commit to the prank.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. And he really did. Well, it gets more awkward because this Runestone then ends up very nearby in Alexandria, Minnesota, which also then becomes home to Big ole, who's a 25 foot Viking statue who's built in 1965 for the new York World Fair. And then he's got a. With words on it and it says Alexandria, birthplace of America.

[Greg Jenner]

Right?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. And there's now a Runestone museum. And there's all these like sexy Viking waxworks and a replica longship. You know, this is a joke that's got a little bit out of hand, Right?

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, Kael, if you were gonna try and fake that you'd been somewhere, how would you fake it?

[Kyle Smith]

Photoshop.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Kyle Smith]

Photoshop. Green screen.

[Greg Jenner]

Just drop yourself in.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah. Get a picture of Google Images, pop myself on the green screen. Done.

[Greg Jenner]

Easy peasy. I mean, that's the modern world, isn't it?

[Kyle Smith]

You don't have to build statues. Put a fake location on Instagram.

[Greg Jenner]

That's quite good.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so you just play around with the settings on the phone maybe.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Clever. All right, so Elena, you are an environmental historian. You work with archaeologists.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Collaboratively.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. What kind of science have we got that actually goes. Yeah. You know what the Vikings did get in North America?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

We do have that. And so. And basically the Vinland sagas directed these archaeologists straight to it. So in the 1960s, archaeologists started working on a site in Lanser Meadows in Newfoundland in Canada. And they found the remains of several Norse style buildings. So it looks like there's some that people can live in temporarily. There looks like there's workshops where people can sort of things. So it's the. What's it? It's the tip of Newfoundland.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it's a place called Lance O Meadows.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, it's right by the water. This is temporary so you can tell no one's really living there permanently because. Yeah, essentially you'd expect to see more rubbish. You'd expect to see some graves. All the rest of it, you don't have that. So it looks like what they're doing is essentially using it as a stopping off point, mending their ships, overwintering. And then they can go further south. And there's some things that have been found at that site, like butternuts that don't. And button up wood. They don't grow that fast. North. So we're talking the area further south.

[Greg Jenner]

Down the Gulf of brought stuff there and left it.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So Vinland, in a way, isn't that place. Vinland is the whole area going south from there.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Lancer Meadows is more of a kind of winter stop off.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. Mend your ship.

[Greg Jenner]

Mend your ship. You know, one.

[Kyle Smith]

There's no toilets. How quickly can you mend a ship?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So there are. I'm imagining there are toilets. But the problem, if they'd been there for years and years and years, you'd expect to see rubbish building up and like poo, basically.

[Kyle Smith]

Right.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

And there's nothing that suggests that people are living there permanently.

[Greg Jenner]

So there's a couple of years worth of poo, but there's not a solid hundred years of turds.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Exactly, yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

Goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. And the exciting. The exciting scientific term. I'm going to use radiocarbon data.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Oh, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You know what that is, Kyle?

[Kyle Smith]

Not a clue.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No solar flares.

[Kyle Smith]

That's not helping.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Flares. Radiocarbonating is a technology we've had for a long time. But it's got better.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. So it's looking at specific. There's different forms of carbon 14. So it's a specific isotope of carbon.

[Kyle Smith]

Right. And basically, obviously, an isotope is.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

So it's a form of carbon. Yeah, it's. They're different types.

[Greg Jenner]

None of us are scientists. We're not scientists.

[Kyle Smith]

Types. I know the word types.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, There you go. There you go. So basically, it ends up in anything living, and then when that thing dies, it starts degrading and it degrades at a sort of reliable rate. So you can then count and work out how old something is.

[Kyle Smith]

Work backwards.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Exactly. Yes, exactly. But this is. This is a little bit different. So this is something that's just been found, which is. They know that there was a big cosmic storm, so, like big solar flares in the year993. And you can see that in some of the wood that has been obviously been chopped by the Norse at this site at Lanser Meadows. So the way we can know this is we know the date of the solar flare, which is 993. And then we just literally count forward on the tree rings. Every ring is a year. And when we get to the end of the rings, that tells us the year that the tree was cut down.

[Greg Jenner]

Dendrochronology.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Dendrochronology, exactly. Thank you.

[Kyle Smith]

And so it's how many rings since the flare?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. And so we know that that wood was cut in the year 1021. And so that's the one date that we can say. All right. It looks like the Norse were definitely at this site in this year, which is really specific because usually we're talking, you know, a good flabby hundred years or so.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's during Leif's life, because he died in 1025. Ish. Probably his sister might be there. This could be Freydis.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It could be. Or it could be the ax she used.

[Greg Jenner]

It could be the murderer, the murder weapon. Who knows?

[Kyle Smith]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So this site is called Lance O Meadows. It's very exciting. It's very important. And it's not a big site, is it?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It's small. It's definitely small. We're not. It's not a village or anything.

[Greg Jenner]

And we've got some other. There's other stuff, too. Other physical evidence.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah. So that's the biggie. That's the really big one. But if we go back up north to Baffin island, so that het land, that stone slab land, again, coming back to Vikings, equal. Actually farmers who like raiding sometimes and exploring. They couldn't have settled there. It's just stony and rocky. But there are signs of sort of brief Norse presence, like maybe the Norse passing through. So there's wool that seems to be spun in a very specifically Norse way. There's little wooden. I know that's a thing. Don't get me started on Norse textiles will be here a long time.

[Kyle Smith]

Kind of thing they're doing at Claire's Accessories.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yeah, it's even cooler than that. Yeah, yeah. And there's little of wooden sticks with tally marks. They might be used for counting or possibly prayer sticks or something. Whetstones used to sharpen weapons or tools. So possibly that's a sign. There's also really, again, sticking with Baffin island, there's an archaeological site that's not Norse, it's early Inuit. And it's close to the sort of southernmost tip of Baffin Island. And there they found this really lovely piece of carved wood. And it's a human figure, and it's about five and a half centimeters high, but it looks like it's wearing Norse clothing. So it's got, like this very full. Yes, it's lovely. It's like this full folds of a skirt and then possibly a kind of yoked hood covering the head and the shoulders. What's really lovely is that we do actually know what, in the later period, at least, people in Norse Greenland were wearing, because the ground is permafrost. It's so hard and icy. There's at least one graveyard where the clothes, all this organic material still existed.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, because it doesn't rot.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It didn't rot. Yeah. It is unfortunately now rotting because everything's getting warmer. But. But so you can actually see it looks like this little carving might be evidence of cultural encounter.

[Greg Jenner]

And we have Norse graveyards in Greenland.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes. So we've got a Norse grave, like. And I can't remember if it's stuck in their ribs or something, but it's an Arab arrowhead. This is not a Norse arrowhead. The only thing they found that is sort of equivalent to that is over in, you know, in the cultures of people who were living on that edge of the North American continent. And actually, that's how one of Leif's brothers is said to be killed in saga. So an arrow basically hits him.

[Greg Jenner]

So it could be him.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It could be him. Let's say it's him.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got greatest. We found him that wood.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Now we've got Leif's brother.

[Kyle Smith]

I'm starting to realize. Realize it's. Let's say. Let's say this.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Let's say, why not?

[Kyle Smith]

That's what history is.

[Greg Jenner]

You Heard it here first, Cleo. So there we go. So that is the end of our history. Rummage. How do you feel about Leif Erikson and the Vikings? Now, have you enjoyed that, or was that just way too much information?

[Kyle Smith]

I have learned. I have learned something.

[Greg Jenner]

Cool.

[Kyle Smith]

I would have him round for dinner. Yes, yes.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

There you go.

[Greg Jenner]

He's the one you would have round for dinner.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

He might try and convert you to Christmas.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, not Christmas. Oh, no, not Christmas. No, no, no.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Just when you're roasting your pigs. Put your me down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

Get him to twist the pig around.

[Greg Jenner]

On the rotisserie.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Rotisserie pig.

[Kyle Smith]

Get him to pop the apple in. Twist it around.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Done.

[Kyle Smith]

Carve it up with his sister's sword and then off home.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely stuff. The nuance window. This is the part of the show where Kyle and I pull the ship to shore, we get warmed by the fire, and Dr. Elena teaches us something we need to know about Leif Erikson and the Viking Age. Take it away, Dr. Eleanor.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Okay, so what I would say is that big names such as Leif the Lucky and Eric the Red are the ones we tend to know about. But I want to make the case for the everyday people who are just bumping along, living their lives through the Viking Age, because they're every bit as interesting, if not more so, than the larger than life characters who end up in the sagas and history books. We just don't get to hear about them so often, although a book coming out in September called Embers of the Hands, which may be very much about that subject. So it's this idea of looking at the everyday people who slip between the cracks of history and the little bits and pieces of them that survive. And Greenland is actually a really exciting example of this. It's my favorite part of the Norse world because its remoteness and that permafrost we talked about means that tons of material from Norse Greenland has actually been frozen in time. And I'll give you two examples, but they give us more names, names of ordinary humans that we wouldn't know about otherwise. Now, one of those comes from a coffin in a graveyard. There's no body in that coffin, but there's a rune stick. And carved onto this little piece of wood is an inscription that can be translated as, this woman who was called Gulveig was laid overboard in the Greenland Sea. So earlier, when we were talking about those great voyages across the ocean, we have to remember how many ordinary people and how many women were there and how Many of them may have actually not reached the other side. The other example again, runes, this time on a stone found high in the Arctic hidden in a cairn. And these runes refer to three men. Erling Sigvatsson, Bjarrdnir Thordarsson and Eindri the Oddson. And it says they built these cairns the Saturday before irrigation day, which is in late April. They were probably hunters. Perhaps they were up there looking for walrus because of that really, really precious ivory. But if they're there that early in the year, they probably got stranded, maybe overwintered there. We never know if they got home, but we don't know what happened to them. And so that's what I'd say, that is the stories of everyday people that we really need to remember.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, lovely. Thank you so much, Eleanor. That's fascinating.

[Kyle Smith]

Should I go to Greenland?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes. Well, what do you mean?

[Kyle Smith]

Yes?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

I was going to say, depending on which bit of Greenland, what time of year you want to go and what you want to get up to while you're there.

[Kyle Smith]

And how hot does the summer get?

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It can actually. Well, particularly now, you know, it can get quite hot. I've been. When it's what I want to say, 25 degrees. It's kind of T shirt weather.

[Kyle Smith]

Not enough for me.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Not enough. So if you're looking for tropical. Nah, not Greenland. No, but they did get. I mean, you can go to Istanbul, you can go to all sorts of nice places. Yeah, Vikings got there too.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know now? Okay, so this is the. What do you know now? This is our quick fire quiz for Kael to see how much he has learned. Do you feel like all the information gone in?

[Kyle Smith]

I knew some of the words that were said.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's see how well you do. Question one. How many years ago did Leif Erikson probably die?

[Kyle Smith]

1,000.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, very good.

[Kyle Smith]

Or 999.

[Greg Jenner]

Very nice. Question two. Leif's dad, Eric the Red, had to leave Norway after some killings. What disagreement saw him get exiled from Iceland.

[Kyle Smith]

It was about the ketchup? No, it was. The disagreement was with the neighbor.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, over some.

[Kyle Smith]

Over some. Some boards.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. Bench boards. Well done.

[Kyle Smith]

Bench boards.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 3. Why did Leif's dad, Eric the Red, stop sharing a bed with Leif's mum?

[Kyle Smith]

Wouldn't stop banging on about Christianity.

[Greg Jenner]

No, she.

[Kyle Smith]

She wouldn't stop banging on. He wasn't up for. He wasn't listening to her banging on about Christianity.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Yes, excellent. Question 4. Why did you need a poo buddy when on A longship.

[Kyle Smith]

Because apparently you can't just hold on to the structure of the boat that you're on. You need to be held by someone else.

[Greg Jenner]

You're being tossed in the waves. It's hardco.

[Kyle Smith]

I think I could do it.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Kyle Smith]

Sometimes I don't even hold on on the tube.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, why are you doing a poo? Yeah. Question 5. Vinland or Vineland or Wineland is what the Norse called one of the places in America. North America. Can you name another of their places?

[Kyle Smith]

Yes, the forest one.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Forest, land or Slabland, Heluland and Markland. Question 6. What was the name of Leif Erikson's terrifying sister?

[Kyle Smith]

Freydis.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, Freydis. Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Well done.

[Greg Jenner]

Yep, I'll let you have that. Question 7. According to one of the sagas, during the expedition led by Thorfinn Karlselfny, what charging animal panicked the indigenous Americans into conflict?

[Kyle Smith]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, it was. It was a charging ball. Question 8. Who or what was big ole.

[Kyle Smith]

The.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a modern day thing.

[Kyle Smith]

Structure that was made in 1960.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. A statue. Brilliant. Well done. Good knowledge. Question nine. What is the name of the site in Newfoundland where a Norse settlement was discovered in 1960?

[Kyle Smith]

Lance O. Lance O. Meadows.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yay.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. And this for 10 out of 10. You could nail it here, Kyle.

[Kyle Smith]

Come on.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Thanks to new radiocarbon dating involving.

[Kyle Smith]

No, not that bit. Right.

[Greg Jenner]

What year do we need know? Vikings chop down trees with an axe.

[Kyle Smith]

I would guess. If I had to guess, I'd say 1021.

[Greg Jenner]

It is 1021. 10 out of 10, Kyle. Amazing. Well done.

[Kyle Smith]

That was more of a 8.5, but I will take that.

[Greg Jenner]

No, you got there. You were kind of in the area.

[Kyle Smith]

I just want to let you know what I've written down.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

Bluetooth united the kingdom. And the Bluetooth was named after him.

[Greg Jenner]

Mm.

[Kyle Smith]

Instead of asking people how old they are, I'm gonna ask them how many rings since the flare.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Kyle Smith]

Finland is not Scandinavia.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

True, true.

[Kyle Smith]

And if you give someone a nickname and it sticks, they can kill you.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Yes, if it's a nasty nickname.

[Greg Jenner]

If it's a nasty nickname, not if it's a cool nickname.

[Kyle Smith]

Ah, right.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Well, listen out. If you want more Viking age adventures, check out our episode on Old Norse literature. For more early American history, why not listen to our episode on Sacred who's a Very fascinating lady? And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with Friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. So you never miss an episode. I'D just like to say huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we have the excellent Dr. Eleanor Barraclough from Bath Spa University. Thank you, Eleanor.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Thank you. This has been so much fun.

[Greg Jenner]

It has been fun.

[Kyle Smith]

Thank you for teaching me.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you for learning. And in Comedy Corner we had the master student himself, the brilliant K. Smith Bino.

[Kyle Smith]

Thank you. Rawr.

[Greg Jenner]

Good Viking energy. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we sail off on more historical adventures. But for now, I'm off to go and fight my neighbour over who gets to keep my lawnmower. Hooray.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

This episode of youf're Dead To Me was researched by John Norman Mason. It was written by John Norman Mason, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Negos and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanke and our production coordinator was Ben Hollins. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Negus. The executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead To Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Hi, I'm India Razon and I want.

[Greg Jenner]

To tell you a story.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

It's the story of you. In our series child from BBC Radio 4. I'm going to be exploring how a fetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get go. Then in the middle of the series, we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all.

[Kyle Smith]

Then we're going to look at the.

[Dr. Elena Barraclough]

Incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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