Leif Erikson (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me: Episode Summary on Leif Erikson

Podcast Information:

• Title: You're Dead to Me
• Host/Author: BBC Radio 4
• Description: The comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Greg Jenner brings together the best names in comedy and history to learn and laugh about the past.
• Episode: Leif Erikson (Radio Edit)
• Release Date: December 13, 2024

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of "You're Dead to Me," host Greg Jenner delves into the adventurous life of Leif Erikson, the medieval Norse explorer widely regarded as one of the first Europeans to set foot in North America. Joined by historian Dr. Eleanor Barraclough and comedian Kyle Smith, the episode blends historical insights with humor to explore Leif Erikson's legacy.

---

Understanding the Viking Age

Dr. Eleanor Barraclough provides a comprehensive overview of the Viking Age, spanning approximately 750 CE to 1100 CE, originating from the Scandinavian homelands of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. She clarifies a common misconception:

Nicola Coughlan [00:04:34]: "Most Vikings aren't Vikings."

This statement highlights that while the term "Vikings" is often associated with raiders, the majority were engaged in farming, trading, and exploration.

---

Who Was Leif Erikson?

The discussion pivots to Leif Erikson, born around 975-980 CE in Iceland. Dr. Barraclough references the Vinland Sagas, particularly the Saga of the Greenlanders and the Erik the Red Saga, which chronicle Leif's explorations.

Nicola Coughlan [00:06:15]: "Leif seems to be a very big part of that [Vinland]."

Leif Erikson is portrayed as a promising and moderate figure, contrasting with his father, Erik the Red, known for his fiery demeanor.

---

The Vinland Sagas and Leif's Expeditions

The Vinland Sagas recount Leif's journey to North America, emphasizing the discovery of Vinland, named for its wild grapes and fertile land. Despite favorable conditions, the sagas suggest that permanent settlement was unattainable due to conflicts and resource challenges.

Kyle Smith injects humor into the historical narrative:

Kyle Smith [00:04:55]: "I'd bully that guy."

This light-hearted moment underlines the podcast's blend of comedy and history.

---

Interactions with Indigenous Peoples

A critical part of the sagas involves the interactions between the Norse explorers and the indigenous populations, referred to as "skrylingar." These encounters ranged from trade to violent confrontations.

Nicola Coughlan [00:17:21]: "It's really not great. And it's telling. They describe them. The word they use is skrylingar, and skryling means sort of wretched or puny."

Such interactions highlight the complexities and often tragic consequences of early cross-cultural encounters.

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Archaeological Evidence Supporting the Sagas

Modern archaeology has lent credence to the Vinland Sagas. Notably, the L'Anse aux Meadows site in Newfoundland revealed Norse-style buildings and artifacts dating to around 1021 CE, aligning with Leif Erikson's lifetime.

Nicola Coughlan [00:21:14]: "So we know the date of the solar flare, which is 993. And then we just literally count forward on the tree rings. Every ring is a year. And when we get to the end of the rings, that tells us the year that the tree was cut down."

This dendrochronology technique provided precise dating, confirming Norse presence in North America during Leif's era.

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Leif Erikson's Legacy and Modern Perception

Dr. Barraclough discusses how Leif Erikson's legacy evolved, especially in the 19th century when English-speaking settlers in North America sought to emphasize their Norse roots over the Catholic legacy of Christopher Columbus.

Nicola Coughlan [00:20:28]: "So then the story of Leif Erikson gets really popular in the 19th century. And part of that is because Protestant U.S. citizens, they're not. Columbus is a little bit too Catholic for them."

This historical reinterpretation contributed to the celebration of Leif Erikson Day on October 9th in the USA and Canada.

---

Everyday Vikings: Beyond the Legends

In the Nuance Window segment, Dr. Barraclough shifts focus to the ordinary lives of Vikings, often overshadowed by legendary figures like Leif and Erik the Red.

Nicola Coughlan [00:25:10]: "One of those comes from a coffin in a graveyard. There's no body in that coffin, but there's a rune stick. And carved onto this little piece of wood is an inscription that can be translated. This woman who was called Gulveig, was laid overboard in the Greenland Sea."

She highlights how archaeological finds, such as inscriptions and runes, provide names and stories of everyday Norse people, offering a more nuanced view of Viking society.

---

Humorous Interlude: Viking Shipbuilding with Kyle Smith

Kyle Smith brings comedic relief by humorously describing the construction of a Viking longship:

Kyle Smith [00:12:02]: "So we use the boards like oars. Cause I imagine the water's quite cold. So I'm not popping my hand in there."

This segment not only entertains but also subtly educates listeners about Viking shipbuilding techniques, emphasizing their ingenuity and practicality.

---

Conclusion and Modern Connections

As the episode wraps up, Greg Jenner connects Leif Erikson's explorations to contemporary media and encourages listeners to explore further episodes on related topics like Old Norse literature and Sacagawea.

Greg Jenner [00:28:03]: "For more early American history, why not listen to our episode on Sacagawea, who's a very fascinating lady."

The episode successfully intertwines historical facts with humor, making the life and legacy of Leif Erikson both informative and entertaining.

---

Notable Quotes

• Nicola Coughlan [00:04:34]: "Most Vikings aren't Vikings."
• Nicola Coughlan [00:06:15]: "Leif seems to be a very big part of that [Vinland]."
• Kyle Smith [00:04:55]: "I'd bully that guy."
• Nicola Coughlan [00:17:21]: "It's really not great. And it's telling. They describe them. The word they use is skrylingar, and skryling means sort of wretched or puny."
• Nicola Coughlan [00:21:14]: "So we know the date of the solar flare, which is 993. And then we just literally count forward on the tree rings. Every ring is a year. And when we get to the end of the rings, that tells us the year that the tree was cut down."
• Nicola Coughlan [00:25:10]: "One of those comes from a coffin in a graveyard. There's no body in that coffin, but there's a rune stick..."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of "You're Dead to Me" offers a captivating exploration of Leif Erikson's life, the Viking Age, and their enduring impact on history and modern culture. Through expert insights and comedic interactions, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the complexities of Norse explorations and their place in the annals of history.

Transcript

[Kyle Smith]

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[Nicola Coughlan]

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[Nicola Coughlan]

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[Eleanor Barraclough]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are braving the brisk waters of the North Atlantic and following in the wake of Leif Eriksson, the medieval Norseman who might have been the first European to visit America. He probably was. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian, writer and broadcaster based at Baths Bar University, where she's senior lecturer in environmental history. Her research focuses on the cultures, literatures and languages of the medieval north, particularly Viking history and the Old Norse sagas. She's the author of various books, including a new one, Embers of the Hidden Histories of the Viking Age. It's Dr. Eleanor Barraclough. Welcome, Elena.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Thank you, Greg. Lovely to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, he's a multitalented actor, comedian and broadcaster. As well as his fab stage performances in the Government Inspector. You'll also recognize him from hosting TV's the Great British Sewing Bee or starring in the award winning sitcoms Ghosts, Stathlet's Flats and Man Like Mobeen. Or delighting the nation on series 15 of Taskmaster, it is the amazing Kyle Smith by no. Welcome to the show, Kyle.

[Kyle Smith]

Hello. I feel like I've been slightly blindsided because I didn't know you were a doctor.

[Nicola Coughlan]

I'm not the useful sort of doctor. I can't. If you have a heart attack, you're on your own?

[Kyle Smith]

No, that's fine. Yeah, I know what to do.

[Greg Jenner]

You've not been on the show before, Kyle.

[Kyle Smith]

No, I haven't.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you feel about history? Something you enjoyed at school?

[Kyle Smith]

When I think of history in school, I remember the module where you have to build a castle. And mine was going so badly that I turned it into a dilapidated ruined castle.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Kyle Smith]

And that wasn't what I started out to make, but then I just went on clip art and made some pictures of fire and then printed it out and stuck it to the front.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you know about the man, the myth, the legend, Leif Erikson?

[Kyle Smith]

I know that that's who we're talking about today.

[Greg Jenner]

Great. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our listeners will know about today's subject. And even if the name Leif Eriksson is not familiar, you might have heard that a Viking was the first person to probably reach North America. You might be sitting there thinking, what about Christopher Columbus? Well, we'll get to him. But if you're listening from North America, hello. Maybe you know that in the USA and Canada, 9 October is Leif Erikson Day. He get today, which of course is celebrated in a much loved episode of SpongeBob SquarePants, an important document. He also pops up in Netflix's Vikings Valhalla. Leif Erikson. That is not spongebob. And the Norse presence in North America is referenced with a Viking character in the US remake of youf sitcom Ghosts.

[Kyle Smith]

Haven't seen it.

[Greg Jenner]

That's fine. You were in the good one. That's brilliant.

[Kyle Smith]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

The American one is fine. It's nice. It's perfect.

[Kyle Smith]

When you said he gets a day, as in not his birthday, just another.

[Greg Jenner]

Just a ceremonial day. Yeah. October 9th. So Leif Erikson shows up in pop culture, there's novels, but how do we separate the truth and the lies from Leif's life? Did Vikings really make it to North America or is this just a big story? And how many people do you need to kill before you're kicked out of Norway? Let's find out when we talk about the Viking age. What is it? How long is it?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, well, we can fix ourselves chronologically. If we think of the Viking age as spanning at least from around 750 CE, roughly up to about 1100 CE. And it begins in the Scandinavian homelands. So we're thinking Denmark, Norway and Sweden. It involves violence.

[Kyle Smith]

Hang on, why is Finland not in there?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Oh, because actually that's not a Scandinavian country. Nordic they're there, but not quite in the same way. But yeah, there's lots of violence, there's conquest, but there's also trading and exploration and settlements. So you end up with this Norse diaspora that encompasses parts of the British Isles and Western Europe, Mediterranean, what's now Russia and Ukraine, and then all the way to Constantinople. They end up in Baghdad. Then in the other direction they go all the way across the North Atlantic and they settle the Faroes, Iceland, Greenland.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know why we call them Vikings, Kael?

[Kyle Smith]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Fair and honest answer. Thank you, Elena. Okay, there's no place called Vikingland.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No, no. There is a place called Vik in Norway, which is sort of might be related to the word, but there's an old Norse. So that's language that the Vikings spoke. There's an old Norse version of the word Vikingr, which is someone who's essentially a raider. So it's basically a seaborne raider. But not everyone who lived during the Viking age in that cultural context is a raider. So they're not all Vikings. And even raiders are not always raiding. And sometimes, sometimes they call their children Vikings.

[Kyle Smith]

What's a raider doing if he's not raiding?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Farming. Mostly trading. Yeah. Fishing.

[Kyle Smith]

A farming raider?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, mostly farming. You've got to eat before you can go and steal all that food.

[Kyle Smith]

I'd bully that guy.

[Greg Jenner]

So most Vikings aren't Vikings?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Most Vikings aren't Vikings.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah. And that idea in the 19th century gets expanded and Viking becomes a sort of catch all term for that early medieval Nordic diaspora.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about Leif Erikson himself, the star of today's episode. Who's Leif Erikson? You know, when's he born and that.

[Nicola Coughlan]

So okay, so Leif, he's probably born in, I don't know, something like 975, 980 in Iceland. He's a character mostly in two of these sagas. One's called Greinlendinger Saga, which means the saga of the Greenlanders. And the other one is Erik Saga Raida, which is the saga of Erik the Reds. Now together they're known as the Vinland sagas because Vinland is the old Norse word for that part of North America, the edge of the continent that the Norse, spoiler alert. Do reach around the year 1000 or so. And Leif seems to be a very big part of that.

[Kyle Smith]

But I can't believe you've spotted that for me.

[Nicola Coughlan]

But Leif, his dad is called Erik the Red, but he's Leif Erikson because of that. The saga is like him, he's described as promising, tall, handsome, moderate in his behavior, in stark contrast to his father.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, okay. All right. So can we trust the sources? Can we say they're historical documents with real people in them?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yes, the historian's answer is depending on your definition of historical documents. Yeah, good.

[Greg Jenner]

Historian's answer.

[Nicola Coughlan]

There you go. Just covering all the basics.

[Kyle Smith]

But how do you decide what's real and what's. If there's so much of it mixed together, how do you decide what's real and what's not? Just on, like, what you like.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, this is. Yeah, I mean, you're looking for other evidence. So, for example, the Vinland sagas, these two sagas featuring Leif, they were actually the basis for archaeologists in the 60s realizing that actually the Norse had reached the edge of the North American continent. And then they find the archaeological evidence. And sometimes you've got to think of them in a different sense. So it's not just a case of, okay, let's sift out the history from the fiction. We've got to think of them as essentially a kind of cultural storytelling, remnants of how this particular culture thought about the world and their place within it. And in fact, the word saga comes from an old Norse verb at seja, to say to.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've heard that Eric is the father of Leif Erikson.

[Nicola Coughlan]

So he's born in Norway, and then he's forced to leave Norway because of some killings. How they put it in the.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, how many killings? Is some killing, Elena?

[Nicola Coughlan]

More than one? I can't remember that. It's not good. Yeah. So he's outlawed and he goes off to Iceland, settles there, and he marries Theod Hildr, his wife, and they have a family. But then it's not long before he's in trouble again. And this is such an embarrassing story. Basically, he gets into an argument with his neighbor about some bench boards, which are kind of carved decorative panels, and everything goes downhill very fast. And once again, he finds himself outlawed, this time from Iceland because of some killings.

[Greg Jenner]

So Eric the Red was exiled twice. Second time for an argument about some bench boards. You seem like a very chill guy, Kael, but have you ever got into a beef with a neighbour over, you know, a lawnmower or something?

[Kyle Smith]

No. Can't have it in the first place. Get off.

[Greg Jenner]

Hit your own?

[Kyle Smith]

No, I don't think so. My neighbors recently painted their fence, and some of it's bled through.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh.

[Kyle Smith]

And it looks horrible on my side.

[Greg Jenner]

So what are you gonna do?

[Kyle Smith]

Some kill ins.

[Greg Jenner]

How do we know, North America is settled by Vikings, or at least. What do the sagas say?

[Nicola Coughlan]

So the sagas. So we're back with those two Vinland sagas.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Saga of the Greenlanders. The saga of Erik the Red. They give slightly different accounts. According to the saga of the Greenlanders, the first person to sight land to the west of Greenland is a merchant called Bjrdn. He gets blown off course. Often discoveries happen because people have just got lost at sea, but he doesn't explore it. And the sagas are not very pleased about this. Basically, everyone criticizes him because he's shown a lack of curiosity, which is sort of not a Viking thing to do. And then later, Leif goes back and finds the land.

[Kyle Smith]

When you say not very pleased, is that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, they kill him.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No, he's fine. He does it, but it's just like, oh, okay. You didn't set foot on there. All right. Interesting.

[Kyle Smith]

Oh, passive aggressive, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nicola Coughlan]

So the sagas are extremely passive aggressive. Yeah. They'll just say she slightly changed color, and that means she's absolutely furious.

[Kyle Smith]

Wow.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

I used to work for a lady who ran a children's entertainment company, and every time she hated something, she'd go, that's interesting.

[Nicola Coughlan]

There you go.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So 1,000, Leif Erikson has found or at least explored a new land. Yes. So what does he find?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Well, I should say not just he, but his followers. And the main discoveries, once again, in both sagas are made by enslaved people. So it's very. So one is called Tyrkir, and the others are two sort of Scottish slaves called Haki and Hekja. And they basically find. So, well, before they get to Vinland, they find other lands, and then they come to this region which they call Vinland because of sort of the wild grape. The weather is fine, the winters are mild. There's salmon. There's all sorts of nice things. And they think, great, this works. And so they build some temporary houses there.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, lovely. Yeah, yeah.

[Nicola Coughlan]

And they call them leifsbudir, which means kind of like Leifs booths, Leif's houses.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've heard about people getting blown off course. We've heard about shipwrecks. Kael, in Taskmaster, you built a beautiful egg boat.

[Kyle Smith]

Yes, I did, didn't I?

[Greg Jenner]

You were a master shipbuilder. Yes. So could you talk me through how to build a Viking longship?

[Kyle Smith]

Well, what you want to do is get some of your neighbor's decorative. What's it called?

[Greg Jenner]

The bench boards.

[Kyle Smith]

Bench boards. You want to turn Them the other way around. So your neighbor can't tell that you used his. And then knock it together, get some mead for the journey. Maybe a pig.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Right.

[Kyle Smith]

Because you don't know how long you're going to be at sea.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure. How are you propelling this boat? What's the propulsion mechanism? Pig.

[Kyle Smith]

More boards.

[Greg Jenner]

More boards?

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah. So we use the boards like oars.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, you're using oars.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah. Cause I imagine the water's quite cold.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Smith]

So I'm not popping my hand in there.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No.

[Kyle Smith]

Right. So. But that can. We can also use some of that to cool the mead. Cool the meadwife. That's my plan.

[Greg Jenner]

Tell me about Viking ship building. Cause they are renowned.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Oh yeah, they are amazing.

[Kyle Smith]

Well, you mean. It wasn't exactly what I said.

[Nicola Coughlan]

What, like raft with a pig? Well, for a start, you. They're propelled by sails as well as by oars. And that is very important because when you're in the middle of the North Atlantic, you might need the odd sail. And rather than your raft, you've got to try sort of clinker built style. So you've got boards, you've got planks, and then you're overlapping them. So they make these very supple, beautiful boats with very shallow bottoms, which means if you want to go raiding, you can sail them into very shallow B. And then if you want to go across the North Atlantic, you're going to need something a bit bigger. And those are boats that. Then you can fit your family in, your followers, your livestock, possibly. You can try pigs, but I will. I'd go for goats and sheep.

[Kyle Smith]

So these are two different types of.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, there's multiple different types of boats, but it's still pretty cold. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

There's no cabins, there's no. No lower deck.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Just benches.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's open sky. So if it's raining, if it's snow.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You're there with your furs.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, you're there with your. And the furs are probably wet. I mean, there's also, you know, a lot of sun. Too much sun and not enough wind. Also not great. And you can end up just stuck there in the middle.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's get back to Leif Erikson. So we have the two Sagas, the Vinland Sagas. They don't say very much about him after the journey. We know about his family, though. Yes, Leif's. He's got siblings.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, he's got siblings, half siblings, something. Yeah, we're not quite sure, but. Yeah, exactly. And they. Even after Leif comes back to Greenland, then according to the sagas, seem to be making voyages out again to Vinland, as they call it. So there's one led by Leif's brother Thorvald. Doesn't end well for him. Another by first name, though. Yeah, it's a lovely name, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Nicola Coughlan]

So Thorvaldr. And then he's got another one, Thorstein. And Spain.

[Kyle Smith]

I'm not into.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No, not. It's like Thorstein. So like the God.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, Thorstein.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, quite like it.

[Kyle Smith]

Okay. Yeah, I preferred the first one.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Okay, we'll stick. Yeah. And then there's ones led by what was his sister in law, Gur, with her new husband, Carlsefni. And then there's another one either led by. Or at least she is there, depending on the version, by his sister, half sister, Freydis.

[Greg Jenner]

And she's. How am I gonna put this delicately? Terrifying.

[Kyle Smith]

She Reydet.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Oh, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, Reydet doesn't even come close to her.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Okay. But here we're talking very specifically about the saga of the Greenlanders because this is one of really interesting things where we've got oral traditions that are. That end up in these sagas. But her character, it depends on which saga we're looking at. Saga of Greenlanders. Yeah, Absolutely terrifying. She makes a deal with two Norwegian brothers to sail to Vinland and they're there to gather timber and resources. But she ends up getting her followers and specifically her husband to kill all the men on the other boats. And no one will kill. So she gets into an argument with them and she wants the bigger of Leifsbudir and she. She wants kind of all the resources and she's just not nice.

[Kyle Smith]

She knows what she likes.

[Nicola Coughlan]

She does. The problem is it gets. Yeah, she also. So no one. There were women in the other party as well, on the other ship, and no one will kill them. And so she actually. She says, hand me an axe or literally put an ax in my hand. She finishes them off and it just says in the saga. And so it was done. It's horrible.

[Greg Jenner]

Freydis in one saga is a sort of psychopathic Tarantino character.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, horrible. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Then the other saga, she's not nearly as terrified.

[Marion Keyes]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

But she's still quite hardcore.

[Nicola Coughlan]

She's hardcore. She's totally badass. She's amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

She's a radet.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she. She doesn't lead the expedition in this one, but she's on the expedition and then there's a violent encounter.

[Kyle Smith]

She's tired from slashing Those. She's exhausted.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Oh, yeah. But, well. So they get into an altercation with the local population that they meet there. And so basically all the men run away and there's a weapon on the floor from one of the people who's been killed, and she picks it up to face the sort of indigenous people who are coming towards them. And by the way, she is heavily pregnant at this point, and she bares her breast and she slaps the sword against it. And we're not entirely sure why, but basically the indigenous people are so terrified, they then run away.

[Kyle Smith]

And that would scare me, actually.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

We've touched on a really important point. You said, you know, the locals. So when we talk about the discovery of new lands, obviously they're not new lands. People have been living there for 25, 000 years.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Indigenous peoples in North America, in Canada, the first nations people. So what did the sagas say about these interactions between the Norse and the. The native people?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Of Newfoundland. Is it Newfoundland?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, well, and further south, Right. Yeah, exactly. And this is really interesting because. Because it's possible this is the first time, if we think of the world as a circle, this is the first time you see the two sides culturally meeting. Those are the first encounters we've got, and it's sort of pretty typical. So depending on the saga, depending on the episode, sometimes they're trading and they particularly. So the indigenous people particularly like the red cloth and the dairy products and the weapons, but the Norse are like, now, we'll keep hold of the weapons, thank you. But then the Norse give them furs and skins. So it's actually very much like what happens later on when you enter Fair Trade. Not necessarily, because in other encounters, they basically all goes horribly wrong. And there's a lot of violence and people get killed, sometimes entirely without provocation. One episode, it's like they just found three people sleeping. So they killed them and there's. Come on.

[Kyle Smith]

Not in. Asleep.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, it's not. It's not great. It's really not. And it's telling. They describe them. The word they use is skrylingar, and skryling means sort of wretched or puny. So that's how the Norse are looking at these people and they lump them all together. But we're probably talking about, you know, the innu of Labrador and the beothuk of Newfoundland. And then we've got around the Gulf of St. Lawrence, which is probably that sort of southern extremity of where they get to. We've got the Algonquins and the Iroquois. So we've got those various groups that the Norse do seem to encounter, but ultimately when they leave for the last time in the sagas, they say, we found a land of fine resources, but we won't be able to settle here. We won't be able to use it.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's the story told by the sagas, These two sagas, the Vinland collection, which is Erik the Red saga and the Greenland saga.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yes. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Do we have any more evidence for the life of Leif?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Basically, those sagas, from what we know of the sagas, he's got to have died somewhere between 1018 and 1025. And that's purely because in one of them he's there in Greenland and in the next it's his son and there's no sign of him. So he's probably gone.

[Greg Jenner]

Definitely dead by 1025.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, it looks like it.

[Greg Jenner]

A thousand years ago. A good, nice memorable number.

[Nicola Coughlan]

There we go. Let's stick with that one. Yep.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've killed off Leif Erikson. Right. We don't know how he dies, but he dies in 1025. We think it will take ish.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Ish.

[Greg Jenner]

Probably of, I don't know, old age or whatever. Although, you know, maybe he was killed.

[Kyle Smith]

But sorry, I've got to put this in my calendar. We can't say ish. I need a date.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

By 10:25 someone else is in charge of death. So he's definitely dead by then. Okay, so let's agree 1025, but it can't be that.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, we're not in the right period of history to be really specific.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about the afterlife of Leif. The afterlife.

[Nicola Coughlan]

The afterlife. That's so good.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you. What happens to his story? You know, he's dead, but what happens in the modern day?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Well, so this is quite interesting because the first English speaking settlers of the US and Canada want to emphasize their English roots. And we know that Columbus landing on the Caribbean island of Hispaniola takes hold as sort of an alternative origin myth for the US after the War of Independence particularly. But Columbus also has never actually set foot in North America.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Nicola Coughlan]

So then the story of Leif Erikson gets really popular in the 19th century. And part of that is because Protestant U.S. citizens, they're not. Columbus is a little bit too Catholic for them. So what seems to be happening is Viking gets conflated with the idea of Anglo Saxons. It implies a sort of ancestral link to modern white Americans. So it's this sort of Quite uncomfortable racial myth of white Anglo Saxon colonizers bringing civilization to indigenous populations around the globe. You know, it's the classic story.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Eleanor, you are an environmental historian, you work with archeologists.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Collaboratively.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. What kind of science have we got that actually goes, yeah, you know what the Vikings did get North America.

[Nicola Coughlan]

We do have that. And so. And basically the Vinland sagas directed these archeologists straight to it. So in the 1960s, archeology started working on a site in Lanser Meadows in Newfoundland in Canada. And they found the remains of several Norse style buildings. So it looks like there's some that people can live in temporarily. There looks like there's workshops where people can sort of do things. It's the tip of Newfoundland.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it's a place called Lance O Meadows.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, it's right by the water. This is temporary so you can tell no one's really living there permanently because, yeah, essentially you'd expect to see more rubbish. You'd expect to see some graves, all the rest of it, you don't have that. So it looks like what they're doing is essentially using it as a stopping off point, mending their ships, overwintering. And then they can go further south. And there's some things that have been found at that site, like butternuts that don't. And butternut wood, they don't grow that far north. So we're talking the area further south down the Gulf of Soren.

[Greg Jenner]

So they brought stuff there and left it.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So Vinland, in a way, isn't that place Vinland is the whole area going south from there.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. And the exciting, the exciting scientific term, I'm going to use radiocarbon data.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Oh yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You know what that is, Kyle?

[Kyle Smith]

Not a clue.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No. Solar flares. That's a bit.

[Kyle Smith]

That's not helping.

[Nicola Coughlan]

No. So this is something that's just been found, which is they know that there was a big cosmic storm, so like big solar flares in the year993. And you can see that in some of the wood that has been obviously been chopped by the Norse at this site at Lanser Meadows. So the way we can know this is we know the date of the solar flare, which is 993. And then we just literally count forward on the tree rings. Every ring is a year. And when we get to the end of the rings, that tells us the year that the tree was cut down.

[Greg Jenner]

Dendrochronology.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Dendrochronology. Thank you.

[Kyle Smith]

And so it's how many rings since the flare.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yeah, exactly. And so we know that that wood was cut in the year 1021. And so that's the one date that we can say. All right, it looks like the Norse were definitely at this site in this year, which is really specific because usually we're talking, you know, a good flabby hundred years or so.

[Kyle Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's during Leif's life because he died in 1025.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Ish.

[Greg Jenner]

Probably his sister might be there. This could be Freydis.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Or it could be the ax she used.

[Greg Jenner]

It could be the murderer, the murder weapon. Who knows?

[Kyle Smith]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

So this site is called Lance O Meadows. Very exciting. It's very important. There's other stuff, too, other physical evidence.

[Nicola Coughlan]

There's an archaeological site that's not Norse, it's early Inuit. And. And it's close to the sort of southernmost tip of Baffin Island. And there they found this really lovely piece of carved wood. And it's a human figure, and it's about five and a half centimeters high, but it looks like it's wearing Norse clothing. So it's got, like this very full. Yes, it's lovely. It's like this full folds of a skirt and then possibly a yoked hood covering the head and the shoulders.

[Greg Jenner]

And we have Norse graveyards in Greenland.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yes. So we've got a Norse grave, like, and I can't remember if it's stuck in their ribs or something, but it's an arrowhead. This is not a Norse arrowhead. The only thing they found that is sort of equivalent to that is over in, you know, in the cultures of people who were living on that edge of the North American continent. And actually, that's how one of Leif's brothers is said to be killed in saga. So an arrow basically hits him.

[Greg Jenner]

So it could be him.

[Nicola Coughlan]

It could be him. Let's say it's him.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got greatest. We found him touching that wood.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Now we've got Leif's brother.

[Kyle Smith]

That's what I'm starting to realize. Let's say.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Let's say this, let's say. Why not?

[Greg Jenner]

Let's agree it.

[Kyle Smith]

That's what history is.

[Greg Jenner]

You heard it here first, Kael. The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Kyel and I pull the ship to shore, we get warmed by the fire, and Dr. Elena teaches us something we need to know about Leif Erikson and the Viking age. Take it away, Dr. Elena.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Okay, so what I would say is that big names such as Leif the Lucky and Eric the Red are the ones we tend to know about. But I want to make the case for the everyday people who are just bumping along, living their lives through the Viking age, because they're every bit as interesting, if not more so, than the larger than life characters who end up in the sagas and history books. We just don't get to hear about them so often, although a book coming out in September called Embers of the Hands, which may be very much about that subject. So it's this idea of looking at the everyday people who slip between the cracks of history and the little bits and pieces of them that survive. And Greenland is actually a really exciting example of this. It's my favorite part of the Norse world because its remoteness and that permafrost we talked about means that tons of material from Norse Greenland has actually been frozen in time. And I'll give you two examples. But they give us more names, names of ordinary humans that we wouldn't know about otherwise. Now, one of those comes from a coffin in a graveyard. There's no body in that coffin, but there's a rune stick. And carved onto this little piece of wood is an inscription that can be translated. This woman who was called Gulveig, was laid overboard in the Greenland Sea. So earlier, when we were talking about those great voyages across the ocean, we have to remember how many ordinary people and how many women were there, and how many of them may have actually not reached the other side. The other example again, runes, this time on a stone found high in the Arctic hidden in a cairn. And these runes refer to three men. Erling Sigvatsson, Bjarnir Thordersson and Eindri the Oddson. And it says they built these cairns the Saturday before irrigation day, which is in late April. They were probably hunters. Perhaps they were up there looking for walrus because of that really, really precious ivory. But if they're there that early in the year, they probably got stranded. Maybe they overwintered there. We never know if they got home, but we don't know what happened to them. And so that's what I'd say, that it's the stories of everyday people that we really need to remember.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, lovely. Thank you so much, Eleanor. That's fascinating.

[Kyle Smith]

Should I go to Greenland?

[Nicola Coughlan]

Yes.

[Kyle Smith]

Well, what do you mean, yes?

[Nicola Coughlan]

I was going to say, depending on which bit of Greenland, what time of year you want to go and what you want to get up to while you're there.

[Kyle Smith]

And how hot does the summer get?

[Nicola Coughlan]

It can actually. Well, particularly now, you know, it can get quite hot. I've been there when it's what I want to say. 25 degrees kind of T shirt weather.

[Kyle Smith]

Not enough for me.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Not enough. So if you're looking for tropical. Nah, not Greenland. But they did get. I mean, you can go to Istanbul, you can go all sorts of nice places. Yeah, Vikings got there too.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, well, listen out. If you want more Viking Age adventures, check out our episode on Old Norse literature. For more early American history, why not listen to our episode on Sacagawea, who's a very fascinating lady. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with friends. Subscribe to youo dead to me on BBC Sound, so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we have the excellent Dr. Eleanor Barraclough from Bath Spa University. Thank you, Eleanor.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Thank you. This has been so much fun.

[Greg Jenner]

It has been fun.

[Kyle Smith]

Thank you for teaching me.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Thank you for learning.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we had the master student himself, the brilliant Kael Smith Bino.

[Kyle Smith]

Thank you. Rawr.

[Greg Jenner]

Good Viking energy. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we sail off on more historical adventures. But for now, I'm off to go and fight my neighbour over who gets to keep my lawnmower. Hooray. Bye.

[Marion Keyes]

Hello, this is Marion Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds called Now you're asking. Each week we take real listeners questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets or the lack of anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain.

[Nicola Coughlan]

Join us.

[Marion Keyes]

Why don't you search up now you're asking on BBC Sounds tanking you.

[Eleanor Barraclough]

Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by. And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation.

[Tara Flynn]

It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After the yoga classes, I felt amazing.

[Eleanor Barraclough]

But soon that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker. A journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders.

[Tara Flynn]

I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards. I have nothing.

[Nicola Coughlan]

The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.

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World of secret is where untold stories are unveiled and hidden realities are exposed. In this new series, we're confronting the dark side of the wellness industry, where the hope of a spiritual breakthrough gives way to disturbing accusations.

[Marion Keyes]

You just get sucked in so gradually and it's done so skillfully that you don't realize.

[Nicola Coughlan]

And it's like this. The secret.

[Tara Flynn]

That's that I wanted to believe that, you know, that whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me, was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't understand.

[Eleanor Barraclough]

Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network.

[Tara Flynn]

I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice and for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future.

[Marion Keyes]

To bring it into the light and almost alchemize some of that evil stuff.

[Nicola Coughlan]

That went on and take back the power.

[Eleanor Barraclough]

World of Secrets Season 6 the Bad Guru Listen wherever you get your podcast, else.

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