Lena Horne: racism and resilience in the Golden Age of Hollywood

Summary

You're Dead To Me: Lena Horne – Racism and Resilience in the Golden Age of Hollywood

Podcast: You're Dead To Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (historian, University of Nottingham), Desiree Burch (comedian & actor)
Date: February 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the life, artistry, and activism of Lena Horne—trailblazing African American singer, actress, and civil rights icon. Host Greg Jenner, joined by Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins and Desiree Burch, delves into Horne’s triumphs and trials in Hollywood’s “Golden Age,” her complicated family life, the realities of racism in showbiz, and her lasting impact as an activist and mentor. Using wit, warmth, and firsthand academic insight, the episode reveals how Horne weathered both literal and metaphorical storms to become a symbol of resilience and change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lena Horne’s Early Life & Family Background (03:07–09:36)

• Birth & Upbringing: Born June 30, 1917, to a middle-class Black family in Brooklyn, NY. Father Edwin was a multilingual entrepreneur; mother Edna was an actress (04:53).
• Parental Separation: Parents split when Lena was three; raised mainly by paternal grandparents, notably her activist grandmother, Cora.
• Childhood Instability: Mother kidnapped Lena at age six, taking her on the road in the theater world but leaving her largely with various carers (06:46).
• Return to Grandparents & Economic Hardship: Reunited with grandparents amid the 1929 crash, later lived with her mother’s new white husband during the Depression (09:15).

“She learned a lot about the arts though…abandonment and the arts going and personal experience.”
—Desiree Burch (08:00)

Breaking into Showbiz: Cotton Club to Cabaret (09:36–16:00)

• First Gig: At 16, Lena auditions at Harlem’s Cotton Club, a white-only audience, but a star incubator for Black talent (09:57).
• Challenges at the Cotton Club: Despite earning double the average Black wage, faced exploitative and segregated conditions; stepfather’s meddling led to tense relations (11:29).
• Transition: Brief Broadway appearance (“Dance with Your Gods”), then fled to get out of her contract and joined Noble Sissel’s society orchestra—one of few women to lead an orchestra, at least symbolically (13:58).

“She’s a pretty lady with a stick, and they’re like, great, you should be at the front. That’s it.”
—Desiree Burch (14:30)

Personal Life: Escape & Estrangement (16:00–18:12)

• Marriage & Motherhood: Married Louis Jordan Jones, another middle-class Black professional. Marriage faltered as Lena continued her career; resulted in painful separation from her son (17:42).

Breakthrough in New York: The Café Society Era (18:16–22:19)

• Struggles with White Bands: Early job in a white band exposed her to fresh racism; segued into her solo career at New York’s Café Society, a racially integrated venue and hub for Black creativity (18:16–20:11).
• Community & Mentorship: Built social/professional ties with legends like Paul Robeson, Billie Holiday, and director Vincente Minnelli.

“They build all these new relationships...suddenly, people are allowed to hang out. They’re able to get to know each other. They make a massive amount of connections.”
—Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (20:13)

Hollywood Years: MGM, Racism, and Survival (22:19–35:15)

The MGM Deal (22:19–27:44)

• Reluctant Movie Star: Never sought stardom in LA, but persuaded to try by her agent (22:02).
• Historic Contract: First Black actor to get a seven-year deal with MGM, thanks to hardball negotiation by her long-absent father, Edwin (25:26).
• Contractual Demands: Refused to play servants or stereotyping “jungle” roles; insisted on equal accommodation with white co-stars (24:56, 26:09).

“He (her dad) could just hire Lena Horne, a maid, with his own money. So she’s not going to be playing servants on screen.”
—Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (23:52)

On-Screen Limitations and Racial Coding (27:44–35:15)

• Typecasting: In films like “Panama Hattie,” Lena was “ethnically ambiguous,” sometimes listed as a prop in studio paperwork (28:52).
• Favorite Early Films: “Stormy Weather” and “Cabin in the Sky”—all-Black casts, rare chances for dialogue and real roles (33:42).
• Segregated Scenes: Sometimes filmed so Lena’s scenes could be cut for Southern theaters (33:51).
• Makeup & Styling: Forced to use “Light Egyptian,” a shade created specifically for her; banned from union hairdressers (35:24). Her stylist, Tiny Kyle, became a key support.

“The hairdressers union banned their members from touching her head...they hired a Black woman off the books. She becomes part of Lena Horne’s story.”
—Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (37:10)

The Broader Context: Jim Crow in Hollywood

• Racism Behind the Scenes: Continued segregation, both legally (Jim Crow laws) and in daily studio life, shaped how Lena and other Black stars were treated (38:39).
• “Passing” & Colorism: Studios “weaponized” Lena’s lighter skin, using her as an acceptable face for cautious studio progressivism, while still enforcing racist boundaries (30:25).

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Activism & Civil Rights (39:24–47:27)

• USO Tours and Segregation: Lena performed for troops but protested segregated shows and the placement of German POWs before Black soldiers (40:02–41:17).
• Continued Activism: Left the USO, partnered with NAACP, supported black soldiers directly (40:51).
• Hollywood Blacklist & Exile: Labelled a Communist and faced McCarthy-era blacklisting, Lena found success on the European nightclub circuit (43:40–44:12).

“The reality of imprisoned people fighting on the other side getting a better seat was really challenging to confront.”
—Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (41:02)

• Civil Rights Work: Involved with Martin Luther King, SNCC, Eleanor Roosevelt’s anti-lynching efforts, and attended the March on Washington. Advocated for black women like Angela Davis (45:54–46:46).
• Recognition: NAACP’s Spingarn Medal (1983) crowned her career as a civil rights force (46:53).

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Later Life, Mentorship, and Legacy (47:57–53:16)

• Personal Loss: Marriage to Lenny Hayton (her second husband) ended; suffered the deaths of her son and father in close succession (48:18).
• TV Stardom and Mentorship: Embraced by new generations, appeared in “The Wiz” (1978) and mentored Black artists like Diahann Carroll (49:47–52:29).
• Grand Dame: One-woman Broadway show (“The Lady and Her Music,” 1981), Grammy and Tony winner, Kennedy Center Honoree; became a community and industry advocate (51:07–52:29).

“She just appears like this ball of hope, but it’s also of survival, right?... She takes on this presence... supporting all these young up and coming artists, talking to them about film conditions, helping them figure out their working contracts.”
—Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (51:33)

• A Long Life: Lived to see Barack Obama’s election, died in 2010 at age 92, after receiving widespread recognition and “her flowers” (52:36–53:16).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hollywood’s Bigotry:
  “They would have table, kettle, six chairs and in one…Louis Armstrong.”
  —Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (29:08)

• Cut Out for Southern Audiences:
  “She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors, so they could physically cut her out of movies.”
  —Greg Jenner (33:42)

• On Resilience:
  “She reminds us to embrace the complex stories behind the successes—and that however exceptional and isolated people tried to make her, she relentlessly returned to her people, her values, and to paying her luck forward.”
  —Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins, 'Nuance Window' (55:18–57:05)

• On Lena’s Enduring Impact:
  “She was cool during segregation, before any woman could vote…she marched on Washington, she sang with Michael Jackson, and she lived to see Barack Obama become president.”
  —Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins (52:54)

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Notable Timestamps by Theme

• Lena’s Early Life: 03:07–09:36
• Career Beginnings in Harlem: 09:36–16:00
• First Marriage & Family Splits: 16:00–18:12
• Café Society, Mentorships: 18:16–22:19
• MGM and Hollywood Racism: 22:19–35:15
• Minority Casting, Makeup, Segregation: 27:44–39:24
• Activism and Civil Rights Era: 39:24–47:27
• Personal Loss, Reinvention, and Legacy: 47:57–53:16
• 'Nuance Window': 55:18–57:05

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Summary Tone & Language

Historian Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins provided incisive, empathetic analysis; Desiree Burch contributed wit and cultural context; Greg Jenner steered the discussion with humor and curiosity. The episode’s tone balanced gravity with comic relief, always keeping Lena Horne’s dignity and achievements at the forefront.

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Conclusion

Lena Horne’s story is one of talent, tenacity, and transformation. She broke color lines and battled typecasting, endured Hollywood’s bigotry as well as personal losses, yet returned repeatedly to activism and community. By mentoring younger Black artists and continually advocating for change, Lena Horne became more than a star—she was a force for cultural and social progress whose influence continues today.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:

This summary provides a comprehensive, engaging walkthrough of Lena Horne’s life and legacy, highlighting not just her dazzling voice but her role as a catalyst for change, a symbol of survival, and a beloved icon for generations.

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For further study, see episodes on Paul Robeson, Josephine Baker, and the Harlem Renaissance, and revisit “The Wiz” for Lena’s late-career triumph.

Transcript

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are donning our glad rags and finding our spotlight as we learn all about the legendary singer and Hollywood actress Lena Horne. And to help us, we have two very special fellow performers In History Corner, they're Associate professor in Popular Music and Director of Black Studies at the University of Nottingham. They're an expert on musical theatre and especially race and gender identity in popular culture. You'll remember them from our episode on the History of Broadway, it's Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins. Welcome back Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Thanks for having me back.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, an introduction feels completely redundant for such a stalwart of your dead to me. She's a comedian, actor and Writer. You've seen her all over the TV on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, qi Too Hot to Handle. Maybe you've seen her incredible new stand up show, the Gold. And you'll know her from so many episodes of this very podcast, including recent highlights Sojourner Truth and the History of Broadway. Not one episode. What an episode that would be. Yes, we're getting the band back together. It's Desiree Burch. Welcome back, Desiree.

[Desiree Burch]

Thanks so much for having me back, Greg. It's so nice to be back and find out what the Heck Happened Before.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the alternative name of the show, what the Heck Happened Before Desiree. We have covered several performers before. We have Diane, Josephine Baker together, Paul Robeson, Petey Barnum to an extent.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, true. Yes. He performed Being a Human. Just about.

[Greg Jenner]

Just about. So if I come to you and I say the name Lena Horne, what comes to mind?

[Desiree Burch]

So what comes to mind is Glinda, the Good Witch from the Wiz. Because I grew up. That was the Black wizard of Oz that we grew up on in the 80s. And so that sort of, I think, was my introduction to her and also seeing her perform on the Cosby Show RIP I mean, I'm just saying, but those were my interactions with her and she kind of, I think, in my head, occupies a similar sort of like Harry Belafonte status of being a performer and an activist as well. Yeah, this is good knowledge. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's. That's spot on, I think. Yeah, it's quite the life. I mean, I, I didn't know half of this stuff and I'm really excited. So we better crack on. So what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I'm guessing there's a lot of people who've heard the name Lena Horne, but maybe don't quite know who she is. Maybe it's the Desiree thing of the Wiz. If you're a fan of classic Hollywood movies, maybe you've seen her in Cabin in the sky or Stormy Weather, or you watched her star turn as Desiree did as Glinda in the wizard of Oz adaptation. The Wiz music lovers might recognize the song Stormy Weather, which is how I know about Lena Horne, or know her incredible voice from her dozens of albums. And of course, if you were a kid or a grown up, you maybe grew up watching Sesame street and the Muppets and saw Lena Horne there. But what about Lena Horne's life story? How did she become the star of stage and screen? And what colour exactly is light Egyptian? Let's find out. Right, Professor Hannah, starting at the beginning, when was Lena Horne born and what was her family background? Are we. We're 20th century, right?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. So she was born on June 30, 1917 to what was a middle class black family. Her father, Edwin was kind of a Renaissance man. He spoke six languages, he owned a restaurant and a hotel, but eventually he got caught up in gambling. Her mother, Edna was an actress. However, her parents separated when she was three and she went to live with her paternal grandparents. Lena's grandmother Cora was an amazing character. She was an early feminist, she was a community activist and she took Lena to organizing events and meetings alongside her schooling. She was very restrictive about Lena's original education and Lena remembered that as the period of sort of stability and comfort during her childhood living with her grandparents. So we're dealing with what we would describe as professionals. We're thinking about lawyers, people who've been to university, people with considerable wealth. We're thinking debutante balls. This is not the sort of stereotypical representation of black life in Harlem that is sometimes attributed to the stories of people who achieve fame as black musicians in the early 20th century.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Desiree, what do you think? Quite a nice start to life, judging by the, you know, 1917 could have been a lot worse.

[Desiree Burch]

Could have been extraordinarily a lot worse.

[Greg Jenner]

For sure. Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Especially.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know or can you guess what happened to upset this, this sort of quite happy and bumbling along?

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, any number of things could have happened. I mean, literally racism at every turn could have happened, but probably a war, I'm guessing as well because of the timing of it. If she was born in 1917, there were a couple of them around then.

[Greg Jenner]

There was a pretty big one, at least one sizable one, fairly large world war, but actually even earlier than that. I mean, Hannah, we have, I want to say the sort of sad kind of break up with the family and the mother sort of kidnapping her daughter. I mean, is that fair?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, sort of. So Lena Horne, my God, true crime

[Desiree Burch]

sounds pretty modern day. Was there a car chase and everything?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

What? Well, sort of Lena Horne's grandparents, her parental grandparents, were estranged from her parents and they took Lena, but had basically no contact with Edna, her mother. And her mother was really unhappy with the sort of straight laced middle class education not exposing her to the arts that she felt Lena was getting. So Essentially she kidnapped her on the street and took her on the road as a touring actress. But actually she left Lena with her friends with other carers. She sent her to stay with her brother Frank, rather than actually keeping Lena with her the whole time. And eventually, when she was 12, Lena was returned to Brooklyn to her grandparents in New York.

[Desiree Burch]

So she picked her up off the street at what age?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

This was I think six.

[Desiree Burch]

So for six years she was like, hey, kid, you're coming with me. She went to go pick her up from school and she ain't going home. Then she takes her on the road and then she's like, bye, I gotta go on stage. I got two shows a night.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. She picked her up when she was

[Desiree Burch]

young and left her with everyone else.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And left her with everybody else but her grandparents. And that caused a really complicated relationship between her and her mother.

[Desiree Burch]

She learned a lot about the arts though. That is, she did abandonment and the arts going and personal experience.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Crucial foreshadowing.

[Greg Jenner]

We will come back to that.

[Desiree Burch]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

She was restored to her grandparents care. Aged about 12, her father, Edwin was out of the picture.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. So he got. Well, Edwin didn't really like working and he discovered gambling.

[Desiree Burch]

I was gonna say, if you start getting into gambling, you start getting really out of working really quickly. Because why work if you can just win money?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So this is it. Sometimes he was extremely successful and sometimes he was extremely not successful. And so that sort of polarity meant that he stepped out of her life for most of her formative years. And she said later on that she only really knew her father as an adult and he was not closely connected with her grandparents. So when her grandmother died, she was forced to go back to living with her mother and her new stepfather, Mike. And she said that she couldn't really relate to this white man that her mother had married. And they fell on fairly hard times. Obviously this was the Depression, as you mentioned, and that led to them relocating from a fairly nice house initially to the Bronx and then to Harlem and trying to figure out how to make ends meet with both Edna and Mike losing their jobs in time.

[Greg Jenner]

Because when she was 12 and she was restored to her grandparents care. That's the great crash, right? That's the Wall Street Crash, 1929. So that is a. That's a bad time to be in the economy. Let's meet teenage Lena. Tina. The Lena. Lena the Lena. I don't know. I haven't worked out what I'm doing with that yet. But let's. Let's meet her what does she do to revive the family finances?

[Desiree Burch]

Desiree Lena. Lena the Tina.

[Greg Jenner]

Lena the Tina.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I mean, I.

[Desiree Burch]

If she got an education in the arts from the age of six, I am guessing that she has figured out some kind of song and dance situation to kind of help out, like she's performing or doing something in the family business.

[Greg Jenner]

No, you're spot on. I think we start our story with not singing yet. Dancing.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. So she's 16 years old. Neither her mother or her stepfather have a job. So she secures an audition at Harlem's legendary Cotton Club. And this is also important to say much to the disapproval of her middle class family. This was not someone who was raised the way she was.

[Desiree Burch]

Disapproval of her gambling father and her mother, who's there, five seconds a year. Okay, okay.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So her mother approved. Her mother thought this was phenomenal. She saw an opportunity to kind of build her own success through.

[Desiree Burch]

You're gonna honey boo Boo your daughter down.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Okay.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I think it's worth saying that the Cotton Club, although kind of legendary to us now, was a really complicated space. It didn't allow black patrons in. And for example, the black musicians and chorus people were not allowed to use the bathrooms. They could only rehearse the final rehearsals in the building. It was quite a tense setup. But at the same time, a number of major artists like Cab Calloway, Ethel Waters, Louis Armstrong, Adelaide hall, all working there and Duke Ellington was crucial to

[Desiree Burch]

make a welcoming space for black people. You don't call it the Cotton.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Well, there is that.

[Desiree Burch]

Guessing it's not a vibe like, hey, come on down to the Cotton Club.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And so these amazing performers are there, and they are. They're barely welcome. And there's. There are no black patrons. There's no customers sitting down, enjoying a beer and watching. It is white people watching black performers.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think in the bigger story for Lena Horn, the meeting with Duke Ellington is the really essential thing that happens at the Cotton Club because he identifies her as a talent that is going to be marketable. And he pops up a number of times in her career going forwards, and he starts introducing her to other singers who begin to mentor her. She starts, I should say, at the Cotton Club, earning quite a lot of money. So she earned more than double the average African American weekly wage at about $25 a week, which sounds like nothing now, but actually was quite a considerable sum in the Depression. And Edna particularly. But Edna and Mike, her mum and her stepfather were really excited at this opportunity and started to push the management of The Cotton Club to try and give her better spots, to give her opportunities to leave the Cotton Club and perform in other places and to give her more money. So actually, what happened was that the Cotton Club became quite a hostile and unrewarding environment for Lena because she had kind of unhappy conditions in general. And then her caregivers basically hustling the management to the point that the steps. Her stepfather actually got beaten up by some heavies because he was getting on management's nerves so much.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, you know what's gonna make your boss really pleased is your mom and dad calling every day and being like, how come you're not paying her more for the same work? You know, I think they're gonna really treat you well while you're working there the whole time. Was she working solely as a dancer or was she singing at this point and dancing as well, if she's been there for a while?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So she began as a dancer, but she was singing as well. Like, the chorus was multifaceted, and she certainly started to get spots during this time. She stars in her first Broadway musical called Dance with your Gods, and she would go do that and then come back and perform at the Cotton club.

[Greg Jenner]

So in 1935, aged 18 or so, she does leave the Cotton Club, and she's off on tour. And in what capacity then? You know, who is she touring with and what is she doing on tour? Is she now the kind of, you know, song and dance lady, or is there a bit of dance theater variety? Bit of what do you need?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I mean, I would describe this as the main transition into her, like, musical career. She decides the only way to break her contract at the Cotton Club, given the environment, is to run away. So she flees, and she runs off to, I think, Philadelphia, and she's not that far.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, and those times, I mean, that was more than just an Amtrak.

[Greg Jenner]

All right.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Cool.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And she secures an audition with Noble Sissel, who some listeners may remember from his involvement in Shuffle along and various other Harlem Renaissance activities. He is now running a major orchestra called the Society Orchestra, and he signs her as a new attraction, and she becomes this star figure. But she draws particular attention for being one of few women allowed to lead, or what we would now call conduct, the orchestra.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

But truth be told, she claims that she just waved a stick and the orchestra actually followed one of the other musicians.

[Desiree Burch]

She's a pretty lady with a stick, and they're like, great. You should be at the front. That's it.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And I guess during this time she releases her first records with Decca, so she's transitioning from the stage environment to a sort of bigger portfolio of work. But here they come again. She was under considerable pressure because her stepfather, Mike and her mother traveled with the band and she was constantly on edge expecting that Mike was going to lose his cool and cause a problem. And actually he does yell at Noble Sissel for. For letting the musicians use the kitchen exit in a segregated hotel and not respecting his players. And eventually Mike is kicked off the tour.

[Desiree Burch]

This is so complicated because first of all, it's like, do her. Does her mom and her stepdad have a job at this point or is their only job annoying her employers?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

She's this.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, she's sort of, you know, the Kardashian model.

[Desiree Burch]

But then he's like, okay, you know lots of people. And I mean, Mike doesn't have necessarily skin in the game. It sounds like he's a white guy, but he's like, you can't just let your black entertainers be treated like second class because there'd be no show. And that's a thing that a lot of black artists historically have had to do and, like, put their foot down about. So he is doing something quite useful, but he's doing it in the most staged ad way where it's just like, can you just please let me work? Why did you follow me to Philly? Do you understand? Running away?

[Greg Jenner]

I'm running away and you're coming too. So age 19, she manages to escape her parents. Desiree, what is the classic escape for parents move at 19?

[Desiree Burch]

She picks up a lime bike and just floors it. She's like, this is the only way. They'll never keep up. Mike's in the background, like, running like Tom Cruise.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And she's like, you'll never catch me.

[Greg Jenner]

She does an ET thing. She just cycles away from the government.

[Desiree Burch]

Just a scooter, just her in her heels and a big dress, like, I'm

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

gonna get out of here.

[Greg Jenner]

Doesn't pick up a bike, she picks up a feather.

[Desiree Burch]

She's, oh, okay. The original bike.

[Greg Jenner]

Something else to ride.

[Desiree Burch]

We did it, guys.

[Greg Jenner]

Hannah, who is her beloved hubby.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. In 1937, she runs away to Pittsburgh this time. And she marries this guy, Louis Jordan Jones, or Louis Jordan Jones, I think it is, actually. And he is from a similar middle class black background. He's the son of a minister. He's a college graduate. He's an aspiring politician. But their marriage is made challenging by the fact that Lena Horne continues to work and he was looking For a different kind of wife, he was gonn his political aspirations rather than make her own money.

[Greg Jenner]

They have two children, Gail and Teddy.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Teddy's named after her father. Yeah. Okay.

[Desiree Burch]

Why do people with the name Ed or Edward think that Ted is a useful, suitable nickname? That's a totally different name. What are we doing? You already have Ed. Eddie. Where's Ted?

[Greg Jenner]

Come on.

[Desiree Burch]

Thank you. So many options. Let's just call you Freddie.

[Greg Jenner]

Moving on to Gale and Teddy as siblings. The sad thing here, the thing that I find particularly affecting, is they're separated when the marriage fails. And Lena, you know that they split apart. The children are split apart.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yes. So Lena goes back to New York and she is allowed. That's how the language goes, to take Gail, her daughter, but her husband wants to keep the son with him. So she basically doesn't see her son, apart from in summer holidays, really, until he's an adult. He stays behind and Gayle goes with her. So we have a replication at exactly the same time. She loses contact with her father when she's three years old and she leaves her son when he's three.

[Greg Jenner]

She moves to New York and that does go well, or at least that's the plan.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

She doesn't get work immediately, but once she does, it starts to gain momentum just through her sheer force of personality. She bugs everyone she ever met during the Cotton Club. She goes for tons of auditions. Eventually, she secures this singing job with a white trumpeter called Charlie Barnett, who runs this orchestra. However, this is the first time she's touring with what's an all white orchestra. And that confronted her with a whole set of new problems. So, for example, some hotels would claim they hadn't booked the band when they arrived with her. At other times, she was left behind when they went to play in venues that were. She wasn't permitted to perform. So this bit is quite a complicated environment for her. And after about six months, she decides she needs to get out. And she secures an audition via the record producer John Hammond, who's aware of her, from Decca to audition at Cafe Society Downtown. So there were two Cafe Societies, one uptown and one downtown, as a solo artist. And it is the up and coming cabaret venue in New York, and it boasts artists like Billie Holiday, who first performed Strange Fruit there. Paul Robeson is a regular performer and that's how they become friends. And it is really the beginning of Lena Horne becoming Lena Horne.

[Greg Jenner]

And this is. As an establishment, this is interesting because they allow mixed audiences. So it's a mixed bill on stage, right You've got black and white musicians, but also the audiences can be anyone who wants to come see music.

[Desiree Burch]

Is this in the Village? Where is this that they're allowing this to happen?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

It's downtown Manhattan.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, okay.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. It was pioneering. They were, in some ways, trying to create an antidote to the Cotton Club environment by having a multiracial environment. But actually, when you look at the lineup, they were clear poaching quite a lot of the performers there. Duke Ellington was there regularly, and he gets, you know, back in connection with Lena Hall.

[Desiree Burch]

It's hard to poach performers when it's like, we'll let you walk in the front door here. I mean, he's done.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And they build all these new relationships.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, exactly. When you come.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

You can wee.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, think about it.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, it's exactly that straightforward. Suddenly, people are allowed to hang out. They're able to get to know each other. They make a massive amount of connections. This is also important in Lena Hoare's later story because she meets people like the film director Vincent Minnelli during this time. So there's a lot. There's a lot of opportunity for her. But this is also how she gets reconnected with, for example, black unions and black organizing, because she becomes great friends with Robeson.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And obviously, listeners, we've done an episode with Desiree about Paul Robeson, who was an extraordinary figure, and, you know, go listen to that, because it's. It's quite the life. This is a very beautiful, glamorous young woman in her mid-20s or so. Desiree, the obvious question, you know, is showbiz all about image first, technique later?

[Desiree Burch]

Yes. Okay, 100%. I mean, look, there's an incredible amount of talent, I think, probably in showbiz at that time. She's meeting them all over the place. But clearly, she was already making quite a bit of money on the image factor. So I imagine that. And just sort of a general Being comfortable around artists in that world got her a lot further than actually needing to. To employ talent. You know, it would be great if she had this, like, wellspring of, like, dramatic, you know, life and upbringing and pain that she could draw from to put into those songs, if only.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. All right, so we have Lena Horne in. We're now into the 1940s. She pretends she can't sing, but she can sing. She's a singer. She's a. She's a performer. But in 1942, she did what every performer with a song in their heart and a dream in their Soul. Does she headed to Tinseltown to go shake her tail feathers? Was it a wild goose chase? Does she have what you need to be a movie star? Because that's a whole other category of fame.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, it's really interesting. She always said she never wanted to be a film star. She was never interested in Hollywood. She didn't like California.

[Desiree Burch]

But her agent, she wanted to run away from her parents. And that's as far as you can get in America until you get to see. Isn't that just.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Well, there's quite a lot of running away from California that comes, actually. But her agent persuades her to go to la, to a venue that Duke Ellington is working at. This is a new up and coming space called the Little Trock. And it became the go to place for Hollywood's great and good. So people like Marlene Dietrich, Cole Porter, Greta Garbo were in the audience watching.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And at that time, Horn inevitably gets spotted by numerous film producers and film scouts. And actually that led initially to her having a screen test for the film Casablanca.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

But actually that character is then played by a man in the actual film.

[Greg Jenner]

No way.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. And in the end, it's mgm, the producer, Roger Edens, who sees Horne and takes her seriously and decides to take her to meet Arthur Freed. Arthur Freed is the head of the division producing screen musicals. And they decide together, along with Vincent Minnelli, who they bump into, who she already knows, that she should go and audition for LB Mayer, the second M in M himself. I would say that her transition into Hollywood is a reluctant one. And she decides to take her father, Edwin, who she's reconnected with at this point.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's back in the picture.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

He's back in the picture. She's now successful, she's an adult. She's able to make some, you know, agent decisions.

[Desiree Burch]

Is he still gambling? I know that this isn't like a major overarching question, but when you bring a parent back into your life that you cut yourself off from, you'd like to hope that they've, like, seen the error of their ways and what took them away. Or is he planning on running off of the lottery money? I just need to know if my heart's gonna get burnt.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

He's not planning to run off with a lot of her money, thank goodness. Foreshadowing again. It was a very surprising audition. LB Meyer is immediately taken with her. He can see the appeal. He immediately understands what Roger Edens, who is an associate producer, has recognized, but they are not prepared for her. And Edwin to come in and negotiate what she is and isn't going to do so with his help. She says that they're not going to accept any old part. And he says that he could just hire Lena Horn, a maid with his own money. So she's not going to be playing servants on screen. They also negotiate that she won't play any illiterate or uneducated parts and she won't play any jungle or Tarzan stereotypes, thank God. So Horne's kind of background that we talked about before, her class identity, but also I think actually her lack of investment in making films films allowed her to advocate here. She wasn't desperate. She wasn't immediately wanting whatever they offered her. And that did allow her on some level to advocate for herself.

[Greg Jenner]

So the dad's sort of running the show a bit. So is he her agent?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

He acts sort of as her agent. She uses him as an advocate for her. I think there are a lot of factors in her life. She has her agent. She also has pressure from outside to try and forge a path in Hollywood for other black actors. And I think she really needed someone to back her. And that's what he comes in to do.

[Greg Jenner]

And she gets an extraordinary contract for a first time debutante. A seven year gig. Wow.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So she'd done a couple of independent black films at the end of the 30s, but you're basically those had not been widely distributed. They were not prominent movies. She had the appeal. I think that's the thing we can say she had the appeal. But also they saw an opportunity to represent a different kind of music within some of these film musicals that are made. So she gets in the end a seven year film contract. And she was the first black actor of any gender to get such a major deal.

[Desiree Burch]

This was that one year they were really doing DEI at MGM and they just really knocked it out of the park. And nobody else ever got that deal ever.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

1942 to 1943.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the golden year.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, the golden year. Oh my goodness.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

This is also based on her previous experience. She has had this difficult time in the All White band. And so one of the other things that she negotiates is that she won't stay in hotels unless they're where her white co stars stay and she has to be allowed to eat in the same restaurant. So she actually drives MGM to put their money in more liberal spaces. And for that Lena Horn gets $350 a week which is increased $100 a week every year. And it's really important to say that while that is more than 10 times what she got at the Cotton Club. Actually, Fred Astaire's signing rate with MGM was $1,500 a week. So although this was not small money, it was also not the equivalent of what the big stars were making. And Fred Astaire's contract is from the early 30s. So this is a decade later.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Desiree Burch]

Do we know what white women were making? Because obviously they were probably making less than Fred Astaire as well. Like, where does her salary compare to other women?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Well, if we use Hattie McDaniel as another black woman. Hattie McDaniel, who is already famous when she makes Gone with the wind, makes $700 a week. But I do think that's worth saying that what Lena Horn has is a permanent contract. So she's getting this every week. Whereas, for example, Fred Astaire was never on retainer with mgm. He did a higher cost contract, but for shorter times. But you're absolutely right, there is a wealth discrepancy in this. If you think, take the film Top Hat that Fred Astaire is in, he is paid, I think it's four times the amount that Ginger Rogers is. And she is paid in costumes, partially. So there's a gender component and then a black tax, for want of a better way of putting it.

[Greg Jenner]

So Lena Horne's debut, MGM debut is a film called Panama Hattie and she's playing herself.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Panama Hattie is an adaptation of a stage musical by Cole Porter. And I think it's a really interesting insight into what MGM attempted to do with her. And it's kind of a. A bleak insight. Simultaneously, apologies, but she is split between a portrayal of just a singer in a cafe and also performs a new song written specifically for the film called the Sping. And the Sping is this bizarre, exotic splurge of references to Cuba, to the Caribbean more broadly, to Southern America, to Latin culture. They deliberately. We immediately start to lean on the idea of her being slightly ethnically ambiguous. And this then feeds into sort of her wider marketing across film in general. But I think it's also really important to say that this is also a time where black actors were sometimes listed as props and not as cast people in the paperwork at the studios. So the complexity of the ways in which they are conceptualizing race cannot be overstated.

[Desiree Burch]

Can you give me an example of how they were listed as props? It's like starring, you know, Ted as the broom. Like, how does.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So they would produce these documents outlining the contents of the films. This would include the list of Scenes, the number of songs, who the cast were. And then they would have a prop list where they would have table, kettle, six chairs and in one. And Louis Armstrong.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh my gosh.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Like it was. It's a beautiful. But it is a really important nuance to understanding what it might have been like to be making a film for her at that time.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, that's horrific, but also just absurd, isn't it? The idea he's not even a human in the cast list. He's just.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Greg Jenner]

He's in there as furniture.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I think when we talk about her race identity and weaponizing her race identity, we also have to recognize that they started doing it right away. And whether we want to perceive that as mobilizing, light skinned privilege or whatever it is being set against this really bleak, dehumanizing context for all black performers.

[Greg Jenner]

And that brings us to an important point. Actually. Almost immediately, Lena Horne's big break was somewhat soured because she was caught in the crossfire between two sort of organizations, right? The civil rights movement and then the film unions. And these are both organizations with noble intentions and yet they are disagreeing. And Lena is sort of of the battleground. How does that work?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. I think she gets caught in the middle of a lot of different political priorities during her sort of decade at mgm. The NAACP and a couple of other black unions were particularly invested in addressing representation in Hollywood at this point. And they saw Lena Horne as a tool, as an opportunity. They felt that she had an aesthetic, her visual appearance, her vocal style would appeal to the white executives. And they sort of saw her as a Trojan horse, if you like, to quote, unquote, break the color line. And to get an actor who was not white into multiracial films.

[Greg Jenner]

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[Desiree Burch]

I'm way too tired to cook tonight.

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[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yes.

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Desiree Burch]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Desiree Burch]

Fantastic.

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[Greg Jenner]

her films that sort of have stood the test of time, I suppose, would be Stormy Weather and Cabin in the Sky. Those are the kind of classic early movies that, you know, you can still watch now. I guess those are all black casts or predominantly black cast. These are films with great stars in all the main roles. So she's part of a black ensemble.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. And if you look at her filmography, really, those two films, Cabin in the sky, which is an adaptation of a hidden stage show, and Stormy Weather, which was an original film made by Fox, are really the highlights of her film career in the 40s. And yeah, as you say, they are all black cast. So it's important to say that everybody behind the camera was white. And what happened there was they got the great and good of black performance into these films and created these amazing sort of bacchanals, if you like celebrations in those films. They are the only examples where Lena Horne has dialogue, where she gets to interact with other people and she actually has character arc after that. She basically loses the opportunity to have a meaningful interaction with the plot of any musical film.

[Greg Jenner]

And you said, when we did our preparatory zoom call, you said something quite shocking. She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors. So they could physically cut her out of movies.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yes. That's an amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

Your eyes went very wide there.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, this is like before cgi. They're just literally like. We will just splice the film just in case.

[Greg Jenner]

They literally just had a sort of frame around her so they could what when they're playing it in the south or.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I recommend you watch the first five minutes of Till the Clouds Roll by from 1946. This is a biopic about the composer Jerome McKern. And in it they stage a sequence from the musical Showboat or they cut together several scenes, actually. And that is one of the few scenes in which Lena Horn appears with a mass of white people. But what happens is every actor in that gets a freeze frame for a 2, 5 seconds and then is in a group. They briefly show Lena Horne and then she literally backs out of shot and then is not in the wide frame, wide angle group shots. So there was literal removal from physical action taking place. But she became what was really the fate of all black actors at the time, which is referred to as a feature actor. She would be given a song number, sometimes with some dance. It would be irrelevant to the plot. She wouldn't have often a named character. She would often be appearing as Lena Horne. And those scenes could just be. I mean, but she could just be cut. Those scenes could just be cut from the film. So, for example, she made a joke in the 80s about the fact that when she went to Texas for the first time, no one had ever seen her in the film she was in.

[Greg Jenner]

The other thing I suppose we have to talk about in terms of racism or at least, you know, prejudice on set would be her hair and makeup. Desiree, do you know what I mean?

[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Desiree Burch]

I'm like, I know her hair and makeup was bad because not good now. So I can only imagine we mentioned

[Greg Jenner]

it very early on. You may have. You may recall light Egyptian.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh my goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know what that might refer to?

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, a light Egyptian. I imagine that that was the makeup color, skin tone that they were going for and not like the name of the perm they were using on the hair.

[Greg Jenner]

But either way, what is light Egyptian? And how does this. How was her hair and makeup up? Sort of in some ways, othering of her in other ways, sort of glamorizing.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

In the 40s, the white press couldn't decide what her skin tone was. But one of the ways in which she was racialized is that they always refer to her skin color. But in headlines she was referred to as sepia, as copper, as chocolate. Like these are not the same shades of foundation, to put it a horrible way. And I think there's a really important point about how she was lit and how she was represented. So, yeah, you're right. The Max Factor. Max, Max Space Factor was working for MGM and was used to making bespoke foundation shades. So he made one called Platinum for Gene Harlow and he makes light Egyptian for Lena Horne. But this is just one part of the reality of the hair and makeup environment for her. When she does her screen test. They only have the makeup for billboard rangles Robinson on hand. People who know what billboard angles Robinson looks like know that he's a much darker, darker skinned actor. And so she actually looked like she was in a minstrel show in her screen test. And that is actually what leads them to develop the max factor shade. But we also have the reality that the hairdressers union ban their members from touching her head. And so the head of hairdressing has to design all her styles himself. Hired a black woman off the books. She's called Tiny Kyle, and she becomes part of, like, Lena Horne's, like, core story.

[Greg Jenner]

Tiny Kyle is a great name.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, that is a great name.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

There's a really important point here that, that not only is she subject to this appalling condition, but she can't have her hair and makeup done in the same room as the white actors who are being treated by union members. So some of the stories about her being isolated, about her being cold and aloof from other performers, and particularly from other black performers, were specifically to do with the way in which the hairdresser union treated her.

[Desiree Burch]

I may need you to repeat half of that because I went for a tailspin the second you said that the hairdresser was not allowed to touch.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Touch her head.

[Desiree Burch]

Is this like a Jim Crow thing? Like no water fountains, no hair? You can't touch her head because it'll bite your fingers off and you'll be, you'll be black as soon as you touch her hair. Like, okay, so they just had to put. Design the wigs and then she had to do it herself.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So they didn't design the wigs. They wouldn't have anything to do with her. The head of hairdressing designed her wigs. She once referred to him deciding to make her look like Hedy Lamar as a result. Like, actually this became part of the racial othering of her is because she ended up having someone who did know anything about her hair or how she would look. Design, quote, unquote, white hairstyles that were then put on her head. They then hired this black woman, Tiny, to look after her, and they become sort of, for a long time, friends. Tiny helps look after her kids and, you know, yeah, that is a tiny, happy nugget in a very bleak, amazing moment.

[Greg Jenner]

Hannah, when we talk about the Jim Crow laws, these are segregation laws keeping white and black people apart in public spaces.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, the Jim Crow laws were about protecting quot unquote, white interests. They were about restricting interracial marriage. They were about restricting employment rights post the abolition of slavery. And they existed well into the 20th century.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, we do know that the Light Egyptian foundation was also used by Liz Taylor as Cleopatra and Ava Gardner

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

in Showboat, which was a role Lena Horne really wanted. So she's playing a character called Julie, who is a white passing mixed race. And, you know, speaking as a white passing mixed race person, I find it kind of funny how that role is always played by white actresses. But, yeah, they used her foundation shade to try and add, quote, unquote, ethnic ambiguity or imply non whiteness on white actors.

[Greg Jenner]

We need to talk about. We've already. Well, she was born in 1917 during one of those big old wars you mentioned Desiree, of course, she was working through the Second World War. America joined the war in December 1941. So do we get a sense of Lena Horne as the kind of, you know, does she go and do the big.

[Desiree Burch]

She had a USO shot.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah.

[Desiree Burch]

Behind with horns, in a little dress, looking in a hat. You know what I'm talking about? That look.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Absolutely. She was. She was often described as the first black pinup, particularly for white soldiers at that point. And she went on tour with the

[Greg Jenner]

uso And Hannah, USO is the kind of entertainment arm of the Army, World War II.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. This is the United Service Organizations. And they were specifically thinking about getting entertainment to people who were fighting in the war. But she soon discovered, in her words, that Jim Crow existed or was alive and well in the Army. So she was expected to do separate shows for the white officers than for black soldiers. But she noticed that prisoners of war were sat in front of the black soldiers. So initially she would go to the back of the performance space and sing directly to the black soldier. But eventually she just started to refuse to perform. So Lena parted ways with the USO because of her sort of feelings of concern about the way the black soldiers were being treated. And that led her to reach out and find new ways of accessing service people. And that included working with the naacp, but also through the Army Special Services Division.

[Greg Jenner]

So segregation in the Army. And she'd already faced that Cotton Club. She'd already sort of lived through that once. And so here she was, was to a certain extent, bringing sort of 20 years of progress, and the army was still way behind. Is that fair?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. I think the. The reality of imprisoned people fighting on the other side getting a better seat was really challenging to confront. And all of these black service people fighting for America not being treated.

[Desiree Burch]

And it's not like they Put the black service members at like the back of the trenches, you know, like make sure they send them right in. Right up front.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly. Yeah. So she's the first black pin up girl, but for perhaps for white soldiers. Which again is interesting in terms of her identity, of course, but just in terms of how she's marketed, I suppose, as a glamorous, beautiful woman. And of course, you know, the war ends in 1945 and our unlucky in love, Miss Horne, does get married again. So I've got good news there. And hubby number two, is this someone Lina can lean on? Is he gonna be a kind of loyal, loving hubby who lets her be. Be the star? Who is he?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Certainly at the beginning. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, he is.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Lena Horn marries the MGM arranger and conductor Lenny Hayton. Initially, they don't get on. She didn't trust white men in her words, and he didn't trust singers. But eventually they get acquainted.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the best way that sentence could have ended because I was worried.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, yeah. Could have framed that better. Never mind. They, they build this relationship together and eventually in 1947, they get married in Paris. But their partnership is extremely controversial in public and private because interracial marriage is still illegal in California.

[Greg Jenner]

So they're married in Paris simply because it's illegal in the place they live and work.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So they marry. Interracial marriage is made legal in California a year later in 1948. This comes at a time where Lena's film career is starting to stall. She's refusing to play these anti black stereotypes and they're trying to push her to do it. And that leads her to be suspended from MGM's payroll for a period in 1945 because she won't take the part she's being given. She's also got these associations with radical black groups. She's pouring her income into union organizing and she's known to be a friend of Paul Robeson. So they have a context in which the studio is starting to see her as a problem. And then she goes and marries Lenny.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, if she's hanging out with Paul Robeson and doing all the organizing, is she about to get the big C stamped all over her? Because this is that time. Right?

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely right. I mean, I suppose Senator Joe McCarthy, not cancer K. No, I mean, we're talking here about the communist witch hunt in Hollywood.

[Desiree Burch]

Okay, okay.

[Greg Jenner]

That is what brings down Paul Robeson to a certain extent. She dodges it by going abroad. Right. Is that, is that fair or is she forced abroad? I mean, her and Lenny. I'm gonna call them Leni. That's their couple name. Lena and Lenny Leni. They're overseas, right, from 50 to 52.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. So Lena Horne is named in red channels as a communist. And that's basically the end of her time at MGM for a number of years. She goes to Europe, as you say. Lenny uses his skills to arrange these bespoke versions of songs for her and she sets up as one of the premier nights club performers really in the world and releases a live album in 1957 and that becomes the biggest selling record by a solo female artist on the RCA Victoria label.

[Greg Jenner]

So that is 57. So she's 40 by that point.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Obviously that's still a young woman by, you know, standard terms, but in terms of, in terms of showbiz, 40's fairly mature.

[Desiree Burch]

So this is her greatest hits. This is her, right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, sort of, you know, she's in the grandma knit by that point is at this point is she now hailed as a great vocalist? Yeah, because she used to say that she wasn't. But she's now 57 best selling artists on the, on the record label. Is she now a brilliant singer?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, I think by the peak of fame of stormy weather in 43, she was definitely known as a singer. And her relationship with Duke Ellington allowed her to really apply herself to her singing style. But the relationship with Lenny allows her to explore her voice. And being away from mgm, where they were very restrictive about where in her voice they would place her songs to force her not to belt, to stop her from opening her mouth too wide.

[Desiree Burch]

There is all of those kind of this is it.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

There were all of these kind of racial codings in terms of how her music was arranged at mgm. Once she and Lenny go on tour, she's able to be free. And a lot of that musical space that was restricted was open to her again.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. And of course by the 1960s, the civil rights movement moves into that era where we're all familiar with what's happening. We've talked before about Josephine Baker, we've talked about Robeson. She's not necessarily front and center in terms of like giving big, big speeches, but she's involved big time now.

[Desiree Burch]

But she, she's back in America now. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so she's the 50s, she's all throughout Europe. She's like not really based anywhere. She's just performing and recording.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So how involved is she in the civil rights movement through the late 50s into the 60s? Because it's the million man March is 63, is it? So, like, what level of involvement does she have?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So she moves back to the US sort of the end of the 50s, where she does an obscure musical called Jamaica and becomes the first black woman to be nominated for Tony Award for best actress in a musical. And. And yeah, they start to put down roots. But ultimately, I think the civil rights movement is a turning point in her life. And she meets Martin Luther King early on in that process who asks her to sing at a rally. And through that she becomes involved in fundraising for him, fundraising for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. She works with Eleanor Roosevelt on anti lynching legislation. She attends the March on Washington with Josephine Baker. There's a beautiful photo of them standing in front of the monument. And this is kind of the beginning of her being very prominently vocal about, you know, political activism in the 1970s. She speaks out for black women radicals like Angela Davis when she's incarcerated.

[Greg Jenner]

Fantastic. And in 1983, the NAACP awarded her the Spring Arn Medal, which is a big deal, right?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. And for outstanding achievement by an African American. So she was recognized for having a long standing investment. But I think it's also worth saying that through the 40s, she had been supporting radical politicians, helping with union fundraisers and thinking about the ways in which like black political organizing could function. And then in civil rights, she came to understand that the way she'd been used as a figurehead or an aspirational symbol of blackness was actually really negatively loaded and started to talk publicly about that and kind of relearn her black radical consciousness, I guess.

[Greg Jenner]

Interesting. And the naacp, I know that's an important organization, but I'd love just definition of what that stands for.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So it's the national association for the Advancement of Colored People. And it was a wide ranging political organization that operated across the US Part of it was a political agenda functioning kind of as a union, but it also had an education arm. It was thinking about moving black rights, black employment, black education forwards.

[Desiree Burch]

And obviously came out when we used to say, come colored people.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yes.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah. Because they didn't want to change the acronym later when we were black.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the sort of stormy weather that she'd sung about in 43. Unfortunately, stormy weather came for her in 1970. 71. She had a sort of a really tragic 18 months or so, which she lost a lot of people she loved.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah. So by this point she and Lenny have separated because she was just less interested in her music career and more involved in political activities.

[Desiree Burch]

No idea what Lenny did or what he was like. He was just a white man she didn't trust. But then she did enough to marry him. He gave her a career in Europe and then he dipped. He was just like, I'm a plot device.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Byeeee.

[Desiree Burch]

What the heck?

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Well, sometimes it's nice that it goes that way.

[Greg Jenner]

But then Lenny McGuffin, I mean, and Lenny passed away, so they separate and

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

then her father and her son both pass away within six months of each other. So her son Teddy, her son Teddy and Edwin both pass in very close proximity. And she'd really felt she'd only reconnected with them as they were adults. Obviously she didn't see her son very much when he was a child. And it's only during her success at MGM that she's able to bring him into her lifestyle and because she has the money to offer him the kind of education that her father, his father wanted him to have. So, yeah, this is a really difficult time and she is in a big transitionary phase. Having done her film, she's recovered partially through television and through her touring.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

And is now kind of at a juncture of doing something new.

[Greg Jenner]

I think she might be the first person on your Dead to Me history who had a sort of TV career. We don't tend to come into the 60s and 70s that much. I think she might be our first TV star. So, I mean, I'll have to check. And you mentioned the Wiz at the beginning. Yeah, that's 1970.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know who else is in the cast?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, I mean, Diana Ross most notably. And Michael Jackson and my God, Nipsey Russell, Ted Ross. Yeah, I'm like, I'm just listing the credits, loads of people.

[Greg Jenner]

She's playing Glinda, so she's, she's sort of, you know, that's the kind of the Ariana Grande role now, I suppose. But it's, it's obviously a huge thing for her. Tell us about her music career in the 80s.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So the, the appearance on the Wiz is really symbolic because she has transitioned into being essentially an industry veteran and she gets to basically sing a song that Diana Ross has just performed. And we have a kind of classic version and then we have this blues gospel re working of it specifically for her. And that throws out what she sounded like at MGM and completely reforms her sound as a result. She starts, starts working live again. And she has a one woman show called the lady and Her Music which opens in 1981 and runs on Broadway for a year. She has some time in Las Vegas as well. And from that she wins a special Tony Award. That is a speech worth watching if anyone has five minutes. And she wins two Grammys. And in this moment she really moves from interpreting music by other people, kind of being told where to stand and what to say to becoming Lena Horne truly herself on stage, I think.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. So actually the spring arm medal from the NAACP Grammys Tony Award. I'm getting a sense here that she's reached icon status. Like important to the community, but important to cultural institutions. They're all going, this person deserves awards.

[Desiree Burch]

When you see her in the Wiz, there is no question that she has gotten icon status because she just appears like ethereally and is like, believe in yourself. I'm out.

[Greg Jenner]

Mike draft.

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I think it's such a magical performance because she just appears like this ball of hope, but it's also of survival. Right. And you know, she gets a Kennedy center honor quite soon after this. She's recognized by the naacp. She's doing still recording quite late into her life as well. So she kind of takes on this presence, taking her experience from when she was working in film and from what went on in the 50s and supporting all these young up and coming artists, talking to them about film conditions, helping them figure out their working contracts. So she's both off stage or off screen, becomes a sort of mentor figure to various people. I mentioned she doesn't win that Tony Award. Diane Carroll does in four years time and credits Lena Horne with helping her find her way in film and on the stage. So we have this like double edged. She's still this amazing public figure, but she is actually really thinking about how to unravel the industry behind things scenes as well.

[Greg Jenner]

She lived until 92. So she was born in 1917. She lived presumably to vote for Barack Obama. Right.

[Desiree Burch]

Because I'm like, I remember her dying like.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Desiree Burch]

In a whole different millennia. Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So she lived to see a black president and still be an icon and receive all of her flowers and get all her awards.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

It's the real end of the story we wanted. Right.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah. And I helped everyone and yeah, was a communist and then I wasn't. Yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

I mean she was cool during segregation, before any woman could vote, she was mentored by Billie Holiday and Diana Washington. She marched on Washington, she sang with Michael Jackson and she lived to see Barack Obama become president. So I think it's a remarkable lifespan. But as you say, she also died rich and I hope happy, which is unusual in this.

[Desiree Burch]

She had two husbands she was no longer with. So I'm guessing She was pretty happy.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

No comment.

[Greg Jenner]

So she died in 2010, aged 92. Important question here, Desiree. I can't believe I'm gonna ask this. Who's more important, Lena Horne or Alex Horne? From Taskmaster.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry. Had to do it.

[Desiree Burch]

See, here's the thing. I mean, I think we all know the correct answer, although my fan base is gonna say, please say Alex Horn.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Please say Alex Horne.

[Desiree Burch]

And I will say, I think that if Alex Horne were here himself, he would say Lena Horne.

[Greg Jenner]

I hope so to not be so silly for once. I mean, genuinely extraordinary life, Lena Horne. And it's not a story I knew at all, other than the song Stormy Weather. That's all I knew as a reference point. And you had your own reference point, so.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah. From encountering that. And also, like, when you talked about her at the beginning, like, obviously, I live long enough to see her in her later years and her pathway, so I knew that, like, things were relatively happy. But when you talked about her beginning being sort of like, oh, things were actually pretty well set up in black middle class. That usually goes one of two ways. Like, usually it's sort of, like, stable, or it's like a Miles Davis version where it's like everything just sort of careens into insanity. I was waiting to see if there was ever any of that element, but it seemed like she was just trying to be resilient against, like, being buffeted by society and all of these various odds, like being expelled from Hollywood as a communist and going to Europe and coming back from that and having a whole renewed phase of your career where everyone's like, oh, actually, here's all of your flowers and a Broadway show. And, you know, all of this work is really incredible and rarely happens.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely. The Nuance Window. Well, it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Desiree and I stand quietly in the chorus line for two minutes, doing some jazz hands, but, you know, no singing, while Professor Hannah takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about Lena Hoan. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

So Lena Horne relentlessly talked about the loneliness and isolation that she felt at MGM and that it made her seem like she didn't want to be in community with other black performers. She came to believe that she was chosen by movie executives so that they could capitalise on her perceived racial ambiguity. And that made her work and the profile of her success understandably contentious for a really long time and yet met the peaks of her career. And I would say her story more generally were always in community with other black artists. Meanwhile, she balanced pouring her fortune into grassroots movements. She got involved in national organising and she was essential in helping up and coming black performers make choices about their contracts, their working conditions. Based on her experience, Lena Horne became a star because she was crowded by support and whatever storm she was weathering. Unlike many others, she was willing to admit her mistakes and to grow intellectually in public. Her story shows the appeal of having had a figurehead, but also the limitations of having one person embody such a diverse community of people. And Horne really tried to pay that investment back to others. But while making the most of the platform she was given, I would say her custodianship and her commercial impact paved the way for public acceptance of a lot of black artists, including the megastardom of Diana Radio Ross, who took over from Horn as the world's most photographed black woman. Her survival and endurance was remarkable, but it was also sometimes messy. She reminds us to embrace the complex stories behind the successes and that however exceptional and isolated people tried to make her, she relentlessly returned to her people, her values, and to paying her luck forward.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much. That's right. Any final thoughts?

[Desiree Burch]

That's really incredible. What an amazing woman. I mean, she never called me and helped me out, that's why. So Alex Horne is my book.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know now? Well, it's time now for the somebody you know now this is our quick fire quiz for Desiree to see how much she has learned.

[Desiree Burch]

You know, I took notes and I think. I don't know if they've helped because there's too many notes and I think I maybe will miss the forest for the treaties.

[Greg Jenner]

But let's famously you're good at quizzes and normally you rely on your memory.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, I know, but I'm 46, so what's a memory? So I decided to write things down. But now there's too many facts because normally people die young.

[Greg Jenner]

It's true, it's true. We gave you the old sort of.

[Desiree Burch]

She lived to 92.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, she made it to 92. She made it through eight decades performance. So 10 questions, here we go. Question one, question. What was the profession of Lena Horne's mother?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, she was an actress.

[Greg Jenner]

She was a traveling actress. Yes. Question 2. 16 year old Lena first performed in which Harlem Club.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, the unfortunately named but purposefully named Cotton club. Absolutely.

[Greg Jenner]

Question three. During World War II, Lena Horne was often described as the first. What for the troops?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, pin up girl.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, Black pinup girl.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, the first black pinup girl. I mean, okay, what were they pinning up before?

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, question four. Four. Who helped Lena negotiate a better contract with Louis B. Mayer at mgm?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, I wrote this down in my notes. Please hold.

[Greg Jenner]

Your call is important to us.

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Oh, wait.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, wait a second. Oh, of course her dad did. Her dad showed up.

[Greg Jenner]

Showed up and. Yeah, negotiated all of that important stuff. Question 5. What was the name of the foundation shade designed for Lena Hall?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, this one I had to write down because every time I heard it, I just. My eyes rolled so far back in my head that I couldn't remember anything. So, wait, no, the Bronze Venus was the film that she did, but it was Egyptian. It was. What was it? It wasn't Egyptian gold, it was a Egyptian. Where did I write this down? I need a search feature on this control F. Yeah, seriously, I definitely. Wait a second. I wrote down Max Factor's name. Light Egyptian.

[Greg Jenner]

Well done.

[Desiree Burch]

Because she can't just be a regular Egyptian. That is far too black. We remember that country's in Africa, don't we? Light Egyptian.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

God sake.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Question 6. What did Lena Horne object to when playing for U.S. troops for the USO during World War II?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, well, that the POWs were placed up front, but the black men were placed in the back. And they wouldn't just let her start from the back. But also, they shouldn't all be upset.

[Greg Jenner]

Segregation. Also with officers, too. Question 7. What was the name of Lena's musical arranger second husband?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, Lenny.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Lenny.

[Desiree Burch]

It was a Len and Lenny production of Lenn.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Yeah, Lenny.

[Desiree Burch]

Lenny and Lena.

[Greg Jenner]

Lenny and Lena. Question eight. In 1983, Lena Horne was awarded the Spring Arn Medal by which famous organization?

[Desiree Burch]

The nacpa, the naacp? My friends, the mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely.

[Desiree Burch]

Did you guys have that? You didn't have that here because that's an American thing. But that was all through the 80s. They had the commercials because of Mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a good line. Question nine. What 1978 musical film did Lena Horne star in?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, wait, what 1979.

[Greg Jenner]

78 film.

[Desiree Burch]

78. Oh, the Wiz. Like the one and only.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely. And this reposition, perfect score, of course. In what year did Lena Horne die?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, 2010.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Desiree Burch]

Which is bonkers. She was like, you're welcome, America.

[Greg Jenner]

Mission accomplished.

[Desiree Burch]

Pretty much my work here is done. And then she. I mean, thank God she got out before everything got bonkertron again.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, Desiree, 10 out of 10. Never in doubt. I think the note system did work.

[Desiree Burch]

It did work.

[Greg Jenner]

There were some fairly intensive shuffling of pages.

[Desiree Burch]

No, I mean, you know, I like, I got Tony nominations. She knew too many people with the name Diana, Diane or Dinah. There's a lot of that going around.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Desiree. Thank you so much, Hannah Listener. If you want more musical icons with Desiree, we've always got episodes on Josephine Baker, Paul Robeson, the Broadway musicals episode with Dr. Hannah and Desiree. I think we also talked today about all sorts of other things intersecting the Harlem Renaissance episode. You can go back to that too. For more film actors matters, we've got the History of Bollywood episode and the Sarah Bernhardt episode. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we have the incredible Dr. Hannah. To Risingham Robbins from the University of Nottingham. Thank you, Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Thereisian Robbins]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we had our leading lady, Desiree Burch. Thank you so much, Desiree with a podcast.

[Desiree Burch]

Apologies to Alex Horn.

[Greg Jenner]

He knows where I am.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, he's gonna find you in these streets, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we launch our comeback tour for another forgotten historical star. But for now, I'm off to go and get my dad to renegotiate my BBC contract.

[Desiree Burch]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

Your dead to me is a BBC studios production for BBC radio. This episode was researched by rosalind sklar. It was written by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, Dr. Emma nagus and me. The audio producer was steve hanke. Our production coordinator was jill huggart. It was produced by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma nagus. And our executive editor was philip sellers. Greg will be bringing a live version of the you're Dead to Me podcast to theatres around the UK this spring. You can join him in London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Manchester. And for more information and ticket details, go to yourdeadtomelive.com hello, Alex von Tunzelman

[Alex von Tunzelman]

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