Lena Horne (Radio Edit)

Summary

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You're Dead to Me – Lena Horne (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You’re Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins (Music historian), Desiree Burch (Comedian)
Date: May 22, 2026
Main Theme: The life, legacy, and impact of Lena Horne — iconic singer, actress, and activist.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the extraordinary life and career of Lena Horne, celebrated for breaking barriers in Hollywood and the music industry, and for her enduring role as an activist in the Civil Rights Movement. Host Greg Jenner is joined by Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins, an expert in black popular culture and musical theatre, and comedian Desiree Burch for insightful, passionate, and often hilarious discussion. The conversation traces Horne’s journey from her 1917 birth in a black middle-class family, through the heights and perils of an entertainment career defined by racism, activism, and resilience, culminating in her late-life recognition as an icon.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lena Horne’s Early Life & Background

[04:37]

• Born June 30, 1917, into a black middle-class family in Brooklyn.
  • Father (Edwin): Multilingual, entrepreneur — but struggled with gambling; largely absent.
  • Mother (Edna): Aspiring actress.
  • Raised by her activist grandmother, Cora, who “was an early feminist... community activist...”.
    “She took Lena to organising events and meetings alongside her schooling.” — Dr. Robbins [04:37]
  • Childhood marked by instability after her parents’ separation and her grandmother’s death.

Early Career: Surviving and Thriving in Showbiz

[06:26]

• To help with family finances during the Depression, Lena auditioned (age 16) for the Harlem Cotton Club.
  • The Cotton Club: Glitzy but segregated venue; black performers but only white patrons.
  • “It was quite a tense setup. But at the same time, a number of major artists like Cab Calloway, Ethel Waters, Louis Armstrong...all working there.” — Dr. Robbins [06:41]
  • Became a chorus dancer and singer; landed a role in her first Broadway musical, Dance With Your Gods.
• Eventually ran away (to Philly, then Pittsburgh) to break free from tense family dynamics and controlling contracts.
• Signed by Noble Sissel for his Society Orchestra, despite parental interference.

Transition to Stardom: Image, Talent & Hollywood

[10:03-13:29]

• Performed at Cafe Society (NY), mingled with legends like Billie Holiday, developed a solo act.
• Showbiz & Image:
  “Is showbiz all about image first, technique later?”
  “Yes.” — Desiree Burch [10:47]
• “She always said she never wanted to be a film star. She was never interested in Hollywood... but her agent convinced her.” — Dr. Robbins [11:25]
  • MGM’s Roger Edens discovers her; auditions before studio boss L.B. Mayer with her father negotiating hard to avoid stereotypical roles.
  • Groundbreaking contract: 1st black actor with a seven-year MGM deal.

Hollywood Realities: Racism, Roles & Representation

[13:48-16:53]

• Debut in Panama Hattie: Rare on-screen representation, but often forced to play herself or cameo as a singer.
• MGM’s deliberate ambiguity about her race — casting her as “ethnically ambiguous.”
• Black performers were sometimes literally listed as “props” in studio paperwork.
  • “They would have a prop list... and in white and Louis Armstrong.” — Dr. Robbins [14:27]
• Notable Films: Cabin in the Sky and Stormy Weather — both with all-black casts, but white-dominated productions.
  • Only in these did Horne have significant dialogue or a character arc.
• Studios filmed her scenes in ways that allowed easy removal for Southern or segregated audiences.
  • “She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors so they could physically cut her out of movies.” — Greg Jenner [15:54]
• Painful makeup policies:
  • “Light Egyptian” skin tone made by Max Factor for Horne; hairdressers’ union refused to touch her — isolating her on and off screen. — Dr. Robbins [16:53]

Personal Life: Love, Loss, and Defiance

[20:42-22:11]

• Married twice:
  1. Louis Jordan Jones - middle-class black politician, marriage faltered due to ambitions and expectations.
  2. Lenny Hayton - white MGM arranger/conductor; married in Paris because interracial unions were illegal in California.
  • “Their partnership is extremely controversial… Interracial marriage is still illegal in California.” — Dr. Robbins [21:14]
• Professional costs for refusing stereotypical roles; suspended by MGM for rejecting demeaning parts.

Activism & The Civil Rights Era

[22:42-24:11]

• Horne named as a “communist” during the McCarthy era and blacklisted; left for Europe.
• Became prominent in Civil Rights:
  • Sang at rallies for MLK, fundraised for SNCC, campaigned alongside Eleanor Roosevelt and Josephine Baker, championed Angela Davis and black women radicals.
  • Publicly reflected on her use as a “symbol” and the complexity of black representation in media.

Later Life: Loss, Reinvention & Icon Status

[24:49-26:28]

• Personal tragedies: separation from Hayton; deaths of her father and son in quick succession.
• Career revival in the 1980s:
  • Portrayed Glinda the Good Witch in The Wiz.
  • One-woman Broadway show, The Lady and Her Music (1981), won her a Tony and two Grammys.
  • “She really moves from interpreting music by other people...to becoming Lena Horne, truly herself on stage.” — Dr. Robbins [25:48]
• Lived until 2010, witnessing America elect its first Black president.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Childhood Stability:
  “Lena's grandmother, Cora, was an amazing character...an early feminist, a community activist...” — Dr. Robbins [04:37]
• On Racism in Hollywood:
  “Black actors were sometimes listed as props and not as cast...in paperwork at the studios.” — Dr. Robbins [14:23]
• On Isolation in Film:
  “She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors so they could physically cut her out of movies.” — Greg Jenner [15:54]
• On Makeup & Segregation:
  “The hairdressers union banned their members from touching her head...she can't have her hair and makeup done in the same room as the white actors.” — Dr. Robbins [16:53]
• On Blacklisting and Activism:
  “Lena Horne is named in Red Channels as a communist, and that's basically the end of her MGM career for a number of years. She goes to Europe.” — Dr. Robbins [22:42]
• On Reinvention:
  “She gets to basically sing a song that Diana Ross has just performed...this blues gospel reworking of it specifically for her...throws out what she sounded like at MGM and completely reforms her sound.” — Dr. Robbins [24:52]
• On Her Role as a Figurehead:
  “Her story shows the appeal of having had a figurehead, but also the limitations of having one person embody such a diverse community.” — Dr. Robbins, Nuance Window [27:58]

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Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Guest Introductions — [01:10]
• Lena Horne's Childhood & Family — [04:37]
• First Forays into Entertainment and The Cotton Club — [06:26]
• Transition to Independence & Cafe Society — [07:52]
• Move to Hollywood & MGM Contract — [11:25]
• Life as a Black Performer in Hollywood — [13:48]
• Challenges On and Off-Set (Racism, Isolation) — [16:53]
• Personal Life and Second Marriage — [20:42]
• Activism and Blacklisting — [22:42]
• Late-Career Triumphs & Broadway — [24:49]
• Her Enduring Impact & Death — [26:10]
• The Nuance Window: Lena Horne’s Legacy — [27:58]

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The Nuance Window – Lena Horne’s Complexity and Community

[27:58]

• Dr. Robbins:
  Lena Horne’s “loneliness and isolation” were byproducts of her being used as a symbol. Despite being “chosen” for her racial ambiguity, her career’s real strength came from her ongoing ties to black communities and grassroots activism. She made mistakes but was public about her growth, paving the way for future stars, especially black women like Diana Ross. Horne “relentlessly returned to her people, her values, and to paying her luck forward.”

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Final Thoughts

• Desiree Burch:
  “What an amazing woman...being expelled from Hollywood as a communist and going to Europe and coming back...having a whole renewed phase of your career where everyone’s like, ‘here’s all your flowers.’ This rarely happens.” [29:50]

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Summary

The episode expertly balances historical rigor, wit, and emotional insight, telling the story of Lena Horne as both a resilient individual and a symbol shaped (and sometimes constricted) by her times. From club stages to Hollywood sets, from activist fundraisers to the Broadway spotlight, Horne’s influence stretched across decades, inspiring future generations while always wrestling with the complexities of fame, race, and the struggle for justice.

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Transcript

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

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[Greg Jenner]

Summer smells like citrus in the sun. Turn your home into a daily getaway with Pura's new summer collection. Find your flow and fragrance and explore the [e-mail]. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are donning our glad rags and finding our spotlight as we learn all about the legendary singer and Hollywood actress Lena Horne. And to help us, we have two very special fellow performers in History Corner. They're associate professor in Popular music and Director of Black Studies at the University of Nottingham. They're an expert on musical theatre and especially race and gender identity in popular culture. You'll remember them from our episode on the history of Broadway. It's Dr. Hannah Tirisingham Robbins. Welcome back, Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Thanks for having me back.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, an introduction feels completely redundant for such a stalwart of youf're Dead to Me. She's a comedian, actor and writer. You've seen her all over the TV on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, qi Too Hot to Handle. Maybe you've seen her incredible new stand up show, the Golden Roth. And you'll know her from so many episodes of this very podcast, including recent highlights Sojourner Truth and and the History of Broadway. Not one episode. What an episode that would be. Yes, we're getting the band back together. It's Desiree Burch welcome back, Desiree.

[Desiree Burch]

Thanks so much for having me back, Greg. It's so nice to be back and find out what the heck happened before.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the alternative name of the show, Desiree. We have covered several performers before. We have done Josephine Baker together, Paul Robeson, Petey Barnum. To an extent.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, true. Yes. He performed Being a Human. Just about.

[Greg Jenner]

Just about. So if I come to you and I say the name Lena Horne, what comes to mind?

[Desiree Burch]

So what comes to mind is Glinda, the Good Witch from the Wiz, because I grew up. That was the Black wizard of Oz that we grew up on in the 80s. And so that sort of, I think, was my introduction to her and also seeing her perform on the Cosby Show RIP were my. I mean, I'm just saying. But those were my interactions with her and she kind of, I think, in my head, occupies a similar sort of like Harry Belafonte status of being a performer and an activist as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, this is good knowledge.

[Desiree Burch]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's. That's spot on, I think. Yeah, it's quite the life. I mean, I didn't know half of this stuff and I'm. I'm really excited. So we better crack on. So what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I'm guessing there's a lot of people who've heard the name Lena Horne, but maybe don't quite know who she is. Maybe it's the Desiree thing of the Wiz. If you're a fan of classic Hollywood movies, maybe you've seen her in Cabin in the sky or Stormy Weather, or you watched her star turn as Desiree did as Glinda in the wizard of Oz adaptation. The Wiz music lovers might recognize the song Stormy Weather, which is how I know about Lena Horne, or know her incredible voice from her dozens of albums. And of course, if you were a kid or a grown up, you maybe grew up watching Sesame street and the Muppets and saw Lena Horne there. But what about Lena Horne's life story? How did she become the star of stage and screen? And what colour exactly is light Egyptian? Let's find out. Right, Professor Hannah, starting at the beginning, when was Lena Horne born and what was her family background? Are we. We're 20th century, right?

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. So she was born on June 30, 1917, to what was a middle class black family. Her father, Edwin was kind of a Renaissance man. He spoke six languages, he owned a restaurant and a hotel, but eventually he got caught up in gambling. Her mother, Lena, was an actress. However, her parents separated when she was three and she went to live with her paternal grandparents. Lena's grandmother, Cora, was an amazing character. She was an early feminist. She was a community activist and she took Lena to organising events and meetings alongside her schooling. She was very restrictive about Lena's original education and Lena remembered that as the period of sort of stability and comfort during her childhood living with her grandparents.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Desiree, what do you think? Quite a nice start to life, judging by the, you know, 1917. Could have been a lot worse.

[Desiree Burch]

Could have been extraordinarily a lot worse.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely. Her father, Edwin, was out of the picture.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Edwin didn't really like working and he discovered gambling.

[Desiree Burch]

I was going to say, if you start getting into gambling, you start getting really out of working really quickly, because why work if you can just win money? Yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So this is it. Sometimes he was extremely successful and sometimes he was extremely not successful. And he was not closely connected with her grandparents. So when her grandmother died, she was forced to go back to living with her mother and her new stepfather, Mike. And she said that she couldn't really relate to this white man that her mother had married. And they fell on fairly hard times. Obviously, this was the Depression, as you mentioned, and that led to them relocating from a fairly nice house, initially to the Bronx and then to Harlem and trying to figure out how to make ends meet with both Edna and Mike losing their jobs in time.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's meet teenage Lena. Tina, the Lena. Lena. The Lena. I don't know. I haven't worked out what I'm doing with that yet. But let's meet her. What does she do to revive the family finances?

[Desiree Burch]

Desiree, I am guessing that she has figured out some kind of song and dance situation to kind of help out, like she's performing or doing something in the family business.

[Greg Jenner]

No, you're spot on. I think we start our story with not singing yet. Dancing.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah, absolutely. So she's 16 years old. Neither her mother or her stepfather have a job. So she secures an audition at Harlem's legendary Cotton Club. And it's worth saying that the Cotton Club, although kind of legendary to us now, was a really complicated space. It didn't allow black patrons in. The black musicians and chorus people were not allowed to use the bathrooms. They could only rehearse the final rehearsals in the building. It was quite a tense setup. But at the same time, a number of major artists like Cab Calloway, Ethel Waters, Louis Armstrong, Adelaide hall, all working there. And Duke Ellington was crucial to make

[Desiree Burch]

a welcoming space for black people. You don't call it the Cotton.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Well, there is that.

[Desiree Burch]

Guessing. It's not a vibe like, hey, come on down to the Cotton Club. Yeah. Was she working solely as a dancer or was she singing at this point and dancing as well, if she's been there for a while.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So she began as a dancer, but she was singing as well. Like, the chorus was multifaceted. And she certainly started to get spots during this time. She stars in her first Broadway musical called Dance with youh Gods. And she would go do that and then come back and perform at the Cotton club.

[Greg Jenner]

So in 1935, aged 18 or so, she does leave the Cotton Club and she's off on tour.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

She decides the only way to break her contract at the Cotton Club, given the environment, is to run away. So she flees and she runs off to, I think Philadelphia. And she's not that far.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, and those times, I mean, that was more than just an Amtrak. All right.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Desiree Burch]

Cool.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

And she secures an audition with Noble Sissel, who some listeners may remember from his involvement in Shuffle along and various other Harlem Renaissance activities. He is now running a major orchestra called the Society Orchestra. And he signs her. But she was under considerable pressure because her stepfather, Mike, and her mother traveled with the band and she was constantly on edge, expecting that Mike was going to lose his cool and cause a problem. And actually, he does yell at Noble Sissel for. For letting the musicians use the kitchen exit in a segregated hotel and not respecting his players. And eventually, Mike is kicked off the tour.

[Greg Jenner]

She manages to escape her parents. Desiree, what is the classic escape your parents move at 19?

[Desiree Burch]

She picks up a lime bike and just floors it. She's like, this is the only way. They'll never keep up. Mike's in the background, like, running like Tom Cruise.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

And she's like, you'll never catch me.

[Greg Jenner]

She does an ET thing. She just cycles away from the government.

[Desiree Burch]

Just a scooter, just her name, heels

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

in a big dress, like, I'm gonna get out of here.

[Greg Jenner]

Doesn't pick up a bike, she picks up a feather.

[Desiree Burch]

She's, oh, okay. The original bike.

[Greg Jenner]

Hannah, who is her beloved hubby.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah. In 1937, she runs away to Pittsburgh this time. And she marries this guy, Louis Jordan Jones, or Louis Jordan Jones, I think it is, actually. And he is from a similar middle class black background. He's the son of a minister. He's a college graduate. He's an aspiring politician. But their marriage is made challenging by the fact that Lena Horne continues. And he was looking for a different kind of wife who was going to support his political aspirations. Rather than make her own money, she

[Greg Jenner]

moves to New York. And that does go well, or at least that's the plan.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

She doesn't get work immediately, but once she does, it starts to gain momentum and she secures an audition via the record producer John Hammond, who's aware of her, from Decca, to audition at Cafe Society downtown. So there were two cafe societies, one uptown and one downtown as a solo artist. And it is the up and coming cabaret venue in New York, and it boasts artists like Billie Holiday. Paul Robeson is a regular performer, and that's how they become friends. And it is really the beginning of Lena Horne becoming Lena Horne.

[Greg Jenner]

This is a very beautiful, glamorous young woman in her mid-20s or so. Desiree, obvious question. Is showbiz all about image first, technique later?

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, look, there's an incredible amount of talent, I think probably in showbiz at that time. She's meeting them all over the place. But clearly she was already making quite a bit of money on the image factor. So I imagine that that and just sort of a general being comfortable around artists in that world got her a lot further than actually needing to employ talent.

[Greg Jenner]

We're now into the 1940s. She's a singer, she's a performer. But in 1942, she did what every performer with a song in their heart and a dream in their soul does. She headed to Tinseltown.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah, it's really interesting. She always said she never wanted to be a film star. She was never interested in Hollywood. She didn't like California, but her agent

[Desiree Burch]

wanted to run away from her parents. And that's as far as you can get in America until you hit the city.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

I would say that her transition into Hollywood is a reluctant one. And in the end, it's mgm, the producer, Roger Edens, who sees Horn and takes her seriously and decides to take her to meet Arthur Freed. Arthur Freed is the head of the division producing screen musicals. And they decide together, along with Vincent Minnelli, who they bump into, who she already knows, that she should go and audition for LB Mayer, the second M in MGM himself. And she decides to take her father, Edwin, who she's reconnected with at this point. It was a very surprising audition. LB Mayer is immediately taken with her. He can see the appeal. He immediately understands what Roger Edens, who is an associate producer, has recognized. But they are not prepared for her and Edwin to come in and negotiate what she is and isn't going to do.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So with his help, she says that they're not going to accept any old part. And he says that he could just hire Lena Horner, a maid with his own money. So she's not going to be playing servants on screen. They also negotiate that she won't play any illiterate or uneducated part and she won't play any jungle or Tarzan stereotypes, thank God.

[Greg Jenner]

And she gets an extraordinary contract for a first time debutante, a seven year gig.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So she'd done a couple of independent black films at the end of the 30s, but you're basically those had not been widely distributed. They were not prominent movies. She had the appeal. I think that's the thing we can say she had the appeal. But also they saw an opportunity to represent a different kind of music within some of these film musicals that are made. She gets in the end a seven year old film contract. And she was the first black actor of any gender to get such a major deal.

[Desiree Burch]

This was that one year they were really doing DEI at MGM and they just really knocked it out of the park. And nobody else ever got that deal ever.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

1942 to 1943.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the golden year.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh my goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

So Lena Horne's debut, MGM debut is a film called Panama Hattie.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And she's playing herself.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Panama Hattie is an adaptation of a stage musical by Cole Porter. And I think it's a really interesting insight into what MGM attempted to do with her. They deliberately immediately start to lean on the idea of her being slightly ethnically ambiguous. But I think it's also really important to say that this is also a time where black actors were sometimes listed as props and not as cast people in the paperwork at the studios. So the complexity of the ways in which they are conceptualizing race cannot be overstated.

[Desiree Burch]

Can you give me an example of how they were listed as props?

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So they would produce these documents outlining the contents of the films. This would include the list of scenes, the number of songs, who the cast were. And then they would have a prop list where they would have table kettle, six chairs and in white and Louis Armstrong.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Oh my gosh.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh my gosh.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Like it was. It's a bleak fact, but it is a really nuance to understanding what it might have been like to be making a film for her at that time.

[Greg Jenner]

Her films that sort of have stood the test of time, I suppose, would be Stormy Weather and Cabin in the Sky. Those are the kind of classic early movies that, you know, you can still watch now. I guess those are all black casts or predominantly black cast. These are films with great stars in all the main roles. So she's part of a black ensemble.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah. And if you look at her filmography, really, those two films, Cabin in the sky, which is an adaptation of a hit stage show, and Stormy Weather, which was an original film made by Fox, are really the highlights of her film career in the 40s. And yeah, as you say, they are all black cast. So it's important to say that everybody behind the camera was white. And what happened there was they got the great and good of black performance into these films and created these amazing celebrations in those films. They are the only examples where Lena Horne has dialogue, where she gets to interact with other people, and she actually has character arcs after that. She basically loses the opportunity to have a meaningful interaction with the plot of any musical film.

[Greg Jenner]

And you said when we did our preparatory zoom call, you said something quite shocking. She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors so they could physically cut her out of movies.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yes, there's an amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

Your eyes went very wide there. Yeah, yeah.

[Desiree Burch]

This is like before cgi. They were just literally like. We will just splice the film just in case.

[Greg Jenner]

They literally just had a sort of frame around her. The other thing I suppose we have to talk about in terms of racism or at least, you know, prejudice on set would be her hair and makeup. Desiree, do you know what I'm like,

[Desiree Burch]

I know her hair and makeup was bad because it's not good now. So I can only mention we mentioned

[Greg Jenner]

it very early on. You may recall light Egyptian.

[Desiree Burch]

Oh, my goodness.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know what that might refer to?

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, light Egyptian. I imagine that that was the makeup color, skin tone that they were going for and not like the name of the perm they were using on the

[Greg Jenner]

hair, but either way, what is light Egyptian? And how was her hair and makeup? In some ways, othering of her, in other ways sort of glamorizing.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

In the 40s, the white press couldn't decide what her skin tone was. But one of the ways in which she was racialized is that they always refer to her skin color, but in headlines she was referred to as sepia, as copper, as chocolate. Like, these are not the same shades of foundation, to put it a horrible way. And I think there's a really important point about how she was lit and how she was represented. So, yeah, you're right. The Max factor. Max Space Factor was working for MGM and was used to making bespoke foundation shades. So he made one called Platinum for Gene Harlow and he makes light Egyptian for Lena Horne. But we also have the reality that the hairdressers union ban their members from touching her head. Not only is she subject to this appalling condition, but she can't have her hair and makeup done in the same room as the white actors who are being treated by union members. So some of the stories about her being isolated, about her being cold and aloof from other performers, and particularly from other black performers, were specifically to do with the way in which the hairdresser union treated her.

[Desiree Burch]

I may need you to repeat half of that because I went for a tailspin the second you said that the hairdresser was not allowed to touch her head. Is this like a Jim Crow thing? Like no water fountains, no hair? You can't touch her head because it'll bite your fingers off.

[Greg Jenner]

Hannah, when we talk about the Jim Crow laws, these are segregation laws keeping white and black people apart in public spaces.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah, the Jim Crow were about protecting quote, unquote, white interests. They were about restricting interracial marriage. They were about restricting employment rights post the abolition of slavery. And they existed well into the 20th century.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those five dollar roses at a gas station? Or a second hand piece of technology that breaks in the first ten minutes? Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for bullspend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bullspend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.

[Greg Jenner]

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[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

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[Desiree Burch]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

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[Desiree Burch]

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[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

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[Desiree Burch]

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[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

local 711 near you.

[Desiree Burch]

Valid through 6 hours 2326 while supplies last. Participating stores see for full terms.

[Greg Jenner]

Of unlucky in love. Ms. Horne does get married again. So I've got good news there. And hubby number two, is this someone Lena can lean on? Is he gonna be a kind of loyal, loving hubby who lets her be the star?

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Certainly at the beginning, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Lena Horne marries the MGM arranger and conductor Lenny Hayton. Initially, they don't get she didn't trust white men in her words, and he didn't trust singers. But eventually they get acquainted.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the best way that sentence could have ended. Because I was worried.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah, yeah. Could have framed that better. Never mind. They build this relationship together and eventually, in 1947, they get married in Paris. But their partnership is extremely controversial in public and private because interracial marriage is still illegal in California.

[Greg Jenner]

So they're married in Paris simply because it's illegal in the place they live and work.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So they married. Interracial marriage is made legal in California a year later in 1948. This comes at a time where Lena's film career is starting to stall. She's refusing to play these anti black stereotypes and they're trying to push her to do it. And that leads her to be suspended from MGM's payroll for a period in 1945 because she won't take the part she's being given. She's also got these associations with radical black groups. She's pouring her income into union organizing. And she's known to be a friend of Paul Robeson. So they have a context in which the studio is starting to see her as a problem. And then she goes and marries Lenny.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, if she's hanging out with Paul Robeson and doing all the organizing, is she about to get the big C stamped all over her? Because this is that time.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

You're absolutely right. I mean, I suppose that Senator Joe McCarthy.

[Desiree Burch]

Not cancer kids.

[Greg Jenner]

No, I mean, we're talking here about the Communist Witch hunt in Hollywood.

[Desiree Burch]

Okay, okay.

[Greg Jenner]

That is what brings down Paul Robeson to a certain extent. She dodges it by going abroad. Right. Is that fair or is she forced Abroad? I mean, her and Lenny, I'm gonna call them, that's their couple name, Lena and Lenny Leni. They're overseas, right, from 50 to 52.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah. So Lena Horne is named in red channels as a communist. And that's basically the end of her time at MGM for a number of years. She goes to Europe, as you say. Ultimately, I think the civil rights movement is a turning point in her life. And she meets Martin Luther King early in that process, who asks her to sing at a rally. And through that she becomes involved in fundraising for him, fundraising for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. She works with Eleanor Roosevelt on anti lynching legislation. She attends the March on Washington with Josephine Baker. There's a beautiful photo of them standing in front of the monument. And this is kind of the beginning of her being very prominently vocal about political activism in the 1970s. She speaks out for black women radicals like Angela Davis when she's incarcerated.

[Greg Jenner]

Fantastic.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

But I think it's also worth saying that through the 40s, she had been supporting radical politicians, helping with union fundraisers, and thinking about the ways in which, like, black political organizing could function. And then in civil rights, she came to understand that the way she'd been used as a figurehead or an aspirational symbol of blackness was actually really negatively loaded and started to talk publicly about that and kind of relearn her black radical consciousness, I guess.

[Greg Jenner]

Interesting. The sort of Stormy Weather that she'd sung about in 43. Unfortunately, stormy weather came for her in 1970. 71. She had a sort of a really tragic 18 months or so, which she. A lot of people she loved.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah. So by this point, she and Lenny have separated because she was just less interested in her music career and more involved in political activism.

[Desiree Burch]

No idea what Lenny did or what he was like. He was just a white man she didn't trust. But then she did enough to marry him. He gave her a career in Europe, and then he dipped. He was just like, I'm a plot device.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Byeeee.

[Desiree Burch]

What the heck?

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Well, sometimes it's nice that it goes that way for them.

[Greg Jenner]

Much. Lenny McGuffin. I mean, and Lenny passed away, so

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

they separate, and then her father and her son both pass away within six months of each other.

[Greg Jenner]

Tell us about her music career in the 80s.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So the appearance on the Wiz is really symbolic because she has transitioned into being essentially an industry veteran. And she gets to basically sing a song that Diana Ross has just performed. And we have a kind of classic version. And then we have this blues gospel re working of it specifically for her. And that throws out what she sounded like at MGM and completely reforms her sound. As a result, she starts working live again. And she has a one woman show called the lady and Her Music, which opens in 1981 and runs on Broadway for a year. She has some time in Las Vegas as well. And from that she wins a special Tony Award. That is a speech worth watching if anyone has five minutes. And she wins two Grammys. And in this moment, she really moves from interpreting music by other people, kind of being told where to stand and what to sing to becoming Lena Horne, truly herself on stage, I think.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. I'm getting a sense here that she's reached icon status. Like important to the community, but important to cultural institutions. They're all going, this person deserves awards.

[Desiree Burch]

When you see her in the Wiz, there is no question that she has gotten icon status because she just appears, like, ethereally and is lacking. Believe in yourself.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

I'm out.

[Greg Jenner]

Mike, draft.

[Desiree Burch]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

She lived until 92. So she was born in 1917. She lived presumably to vote for Barack Obama. Right.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah. Because I'm like, I remember her dying, like.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Desiree Burch]

In a whole different millennia. Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So she lived to see a black president and still be an icon and receive all of her flowers and get all her awards.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

It's the real end of the story we wanted. Right. So she died in 2010 aged 92. Genuinely extraordinary life. Lena Horne. And it's not a story I knew at all, other than the song Stormy Weather. That's all I knew as a reference point. And you had your own reference point. So. Yeah.

[Desiree Burch]

From encountering that. And also, like, when you talked about her at the beginning, like, obviously I live long enough to see her in her later years and her passway. So I knew that, like, things were relatively happy. But when you talked about her beginning being sort of like, oh, things were actually pretty well set up in black middle class. That usually goes one of two ways. Like, usually it's sort of like stable or it's like a Miles Davis version where it's like everything just sort of careens into insanity. I was waiting to see if there was ever any of that element, but it seemed like she was just trying to be resilient against, like, being buffeted by society and all of these various odds, like being expelled from Hollywood as a communist and going to Europe and coming back from that and having a whole renewed phase of your career where everyone's like, oh, actually, here's all of your flowers and a Broadway show and, you know, all of this work is really incredible and it rarely happens.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely. The nuance window. Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Desiree and I stand quietly in the chorus line for two minutes, doing some jazz hands, but, you know, no singing. While Professor Hannah takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about Lena Horne. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

So Lena Horne relentlessly talked about the loneliness and isolation that she felt about mgm and that it made her seem like she didn't want to be in community with other black performers. She came to believe that she was chosen by movie executives so that they could capitalise on her perceived racial ambiguity. And that made her work and the profile of her success understandably contentious for a really long time. And yet the peaks of her career, and I would say her story more generally, were always in community with other black artists. Meanwhile, she balanced, balanced, pouring her fortune into grassroots movements. She got involved in national organizing, and she was essential in helping up and coming black performers make choices about their contracts, their working conditions. Based on her experience, Lena Horne became a star because she was crowded by support and whatever storm she was weathering. Unlike many others, she was willing to admit her mistakes and to grow intellectually in public. Her story shows the appeal of having had had a figurehead, but also the limitations of having one person embody such a diverse community of people. And Horne really tried to pay that investment back to others. But while making the most of the platform she was given, I would say her custodianship and her commercial impact paved the way for public acceptance of a lot of black artists, including the megastardom of Diana Ross, who took over from Horn as the world's most photographed black woman. Her survival and endurance was remarkable, but it was also sometimes messy. She reminds us to embrace the complex stories behind the successes and that however exceptional and isolated people tried to make her, she relentlessly returned to her people, her values, and to paying her luck forward.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much, Desiree. Any final thoughts? That.

[Desiree Burch]

That's really incredible. What an amazing woman. I mean, she never called me and helped me out. That's why my

[Greg Jenner]

amazing. Well, thank you so much, Desiree. Thank you so much, Hannah Listener. If you want more musical icons with Desiree, we've always got episodes on Josephine Baker, Paul Robeson, the Broadway musicals episode with Dr. Hannah and Desiree. I think we also talked today about all sorts of other things intersecting the Harlem Renaissance episode. You can go back to that too. For more film acting, we've got the History of Bollywood episode and the Sarah Bernhardt episode. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guest. In History Corner we had the incredible Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins from the University of Nottingham. Thank you Hannah.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we had our leading lady, Desiree Burch. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we launch our comeback tour for another forgotten historical star. Now I'm off to go and get my dad to renegotiate my BBC contract. Bye.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Hello. Alex Von Tunzelman here with a brand new series of history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident which would require all his courage.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

Dickens remained in the river, helping the rescue, assisting the wounded.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

He didn't search out to be heroic.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

He didn't play on his heroism.

[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

Even if it means sitting front row

[Desiree Burch]

at a comedy show. Hey, everyone.

[Greg Jenner]

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[Desiree Burch]

What is this, your first date?

[Greg Jenner]

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[Dr. Hannah Terrisingham Robbins]

We're married.

[Greg Jenner]

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