Marco Polo (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead To Me: Marco Polo (Radio Edit) – Detailed Summary

Released on July 11, 2025 by BBC Radio 4

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of "You're Dead To Me," host Greg Jenner delves into the life and legacy of the medieval traveler Marco Polo. Combining historical insights with comedic flair, Greg is joined by two special guests: Professor Sharon Kinoshita, a distinguished literature professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and Ria Lina, a renowned comedian and actor. Together, they explore the fascinating journey of Marco Polo, uncovering both well-known facts and obscure details about his adventures and contributions to history.

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The Polo Family and Early Life

Greg begins by introducing Marco Polo's background, setting the stage for his later adventures.

Greg Jenner [03:25]: "Was he wealthy? Is he born into privilege?"

Professor Sharon Kinoshita [04:36]: "He was born in 1254, so mid 13th century into a merchant family of Venice."

While not much is known about Marco's childhood, Sharon explains that Venice during this period was a thriving maritime republic. The city's strategic location and robust trading network set the perfect environment for Marco Polo to develop into an explorer.

Sharon Kinoshita [06:56]: "Venice really got its start with the First Crusade in 1099, and they developed a transport business shipping people back and forth to the Holy Land."

Ria adds a humorous touch by reminiscing about the game "Marco Polo," highlighting the cultural impact of his name beyond his actual historical deeds.

Ria Lina [03:02]: "Or in swimming… The rule is that you put on a blindfold and then everyone else that you're playing with has to avoid being tagged by you… you say Marco and everyone has to say Polo when you say Marco so that you can get an idea of where they are."

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The Journey to Mongol China

The discussion shifts to the Polo family's expedition to the East. Sharon provides detailed context about the political landscape of the time.

Sharon Kinoshita [07:02]: "The Mongol Empire was vaster than any of those [Yam postal system]... So the distances we're talking about were much greater."

Greg humorously remarks on the term "Silk Road," emphasizing its significance as a trade network rather than just a series of sea routes.

Greg Jenner [07:02]: "So we call this the Silk Road. Despite it being seas."

The Polos, including Marco at the age of 17 or 18, set out in 1271, embarking on a journey that would last 24 years.

Ria Lina [10:03]: "Let's go 20 years."

Greg Jenner [10:34]: "So you've done very well. You're very good at this, Rhea."

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Life in the Mongol Court

Marco Polo's time in the court of Kublai Khan is a pivotal aspect of his story. Sharon describes the complexities and nuances of Polo's experiences.

Sharon Kinoshita [09:01]: "They were traveling not to China, but to the court of the Great Khan… which corresponds to our modern nation-state of China."

The trio discusses Marco's integration into the Mongol Empire and his observations of its administrative systems.

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The Description of the World: The Book

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Marco Polo's renowned work, "Description of the World."

Sharon Kinoshita [11:07]: "It was written not as a travel narrative but as a comprehensive description of the world he observed."

Ria humorously critiques the book's structure, suggesting that it reads like a series of daily logs.

Ria Lina [12:17]: "You know, I'm beginning to wonder whether his dad made him go to his room and just write down what happened today."

Despite the humor, Sharon highlights the book's depth and historical value.

Sharon Kinoshita [13:08]: "The postal system and paper money are two things that Polo is particularly intrigued by."

Notably, the book was co-authored with Rustichello da Pisa, a fellow prisoner, blending Marco's firsthand accounts with Rustichello's literary skills.

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Innovations Observed: Postal System and Paper Money

Greg and Sharon delve into specific innovations that fascinated Marco Polo during his time in China.

Sharon Kinoshita [13:08]: "The Mongol system was called the Yam. Horses or runners were posted at stations every three miles or so… they could cover a 10-day journey."

Greg Jenner [12:40]: "Marco Polo's particularly fascinated because paper money is not in use in Europe, is it, at this time."

Sharon Kinoshita [14:03]: "The idea that you had money that was good over the vast stretch of empire is just mind-blowing."

These discussions underscore the advanced administrative systems of the Mongol Empire and how Marco documented these innovations for European audiences.

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Unique Insights: Diamonds and Exotic Goods

The episode takes a lighter turn as Ria brings humor to the discussion of Marco Polo's accounts of diamonds in India.

Greg Jenner [14:39]: "Marco Polo listed three techniques for unearthing natural diamonds in India. Interestingly enough. Can you guess what these techniques might have been? I'll give you a clue, Riya. One of them involves eagles."

Ria Lina [15:05]: "I'm writing this down. How many Diamonds do you have?"

Through laughter, the guests explore Polo's intriguing descriptions of diamond mining techniques, including the use of eagles to extract precious stones.

Sharon Kinoshita [15:58]: "They took pieces of meat into the cavern and they threw them in so the diamonds would stick to the meat. Then eagles come and grab the meat."

The conversation extends to other luxurious animal products like ambergris and musk, emphasizing their value in medieval trade.

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Return to Venice and Later Life

After 24 years in the Mongol court, the Polos return to Venice. However, their journey doesn't end there, as political tensions lead Marco to imprisonment in Genoa.

Sharon Kinoshita [19:03]: "Within four years he was in jail in Genoa."

During his imprisonment, Marco collaborates with Rustichello to document his travels, resulting in the creation of his famous book.

Greg Jenner [21:42]: "They are co-authors, and I guess we would be tempted to call Rustichello a kind of ghostwriter…"

Post-release, Marco marries Donata Badoer and continues his involvement in the musk trade, marrying well above his initial social station.

Sharon Kinoshita [23:47]: "He marries very well. He has a couple of daughters who also marry very well above the Polo's original social status."

Marco Polo dies in 1324 at the age of 70, leaving behind a legacy through his travels and writings.

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Legacy and Impact of Marco Polo's Travels

The episode concludes by exploring how Marco Polo's book survived and influenced European knowledge of Asia.

Sharon Kinoshita [24:48]: "This was a best seller in the Middle Ages… translated into Latin by a Dominican friar… further on into Northern European languages."

Sharon emphasizes the book's surprising modernity, challenging contemporary medieval perceptions and providing a vivid account of diverse cultures and innovations.

Sharon Kinoshita [25:35]: "Marco Polo was a real myth buster… he identifies the many sites across South, Southeast, and East Asia that are sources of the spices…"

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Conclusion

Greg wraps up the episode by thanking his guests, highlighting the blend of academic depth and comedic insight that made the exploration of Marco Polo's life both informative and entertaining.

Greg Jenner [28:38]: "Join me next time as we navigate more historical wonders."

As listeners are left with a deeper understanding of Marco Polo's contributions and the enduring fascination with his travels, the episode underscores the importance of viewing history through both scholarly and humorous lenses.

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Notable Quotes:

• Greg Jenner [12:40]: "Marco Polo's particularly fascinated because paper money is not in use in Europe, is it, at this time."

• Sharon Kinoshita [14:03]: "The idea that you had money that was good over the vast stretch of empire is just mind-blowing."

• Ria Lina [15:05]: "I'm writing this down. How many Diamonds do you have?"

• Sharon Kinoshita [25:35]: "Marco Polo was a real myth buster… he identifies the many sites across South, Southeast, and East Asia that are sources of the spices…"

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This episode of "You're Dead To Me" masterfully intertwines historical scholarship with humor, offering listeners a comprehensive and entertaining look into the life of one of history's most legendary travelers, Marco Polo.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Helena Bonham Carter]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our trunk and boarding a ship to 13th century China to learn all about medieval traveler Marco Polo. And to help us on our way, we have two very special traveling companions. In History Corner, she's Distinguished professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Her research focuses on the intercultural relations of 12th and 13th century Asia and Europe, and in literature particularly. And luckily for us, she's the most recent translator of Marco Polo's book, as well as the author of Marco Polo and His World. It's Professor Sharon Kinoshita. Welcome, Sharon.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Thanks Greg. I'm delighted to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

We're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor and writer. You might have seen her on loads of things on tv, including Live at the Apollo, qi, Pointless. Having news for you. Maybe you've seen her Stand Up Tour Reawakening, or heard her on Radio 4's News Quiz or the Now Show. And you will definitely remember her from our episode on Pirate Queen Jung Yi Sao. Well, it's Rialina welcome back to the show. Rhea.

[Ria Lina]

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

We're delighted to have you back. Now, Rhea, you are, I think, officially the most educated, therefore most hyper intelligent comedian we've ever had on. You have a PhD.

[Ria Lina]

I do have a PhD, but I don't know that that makes me the most.

[Greg Jenner]

The most educated perhaps, but.

[Ria Lina]

Okay, all right. The only one that didn't have an ADHD enough to be able to finish.3 degrees.

[Greg Jenner]

So is Marco Polo a familiar name?

[Ria Lina]

Very familiar name to me because I used to play it all the time at school.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Ria Lina]

Or in swimming.

[Greg Jenner]

Talk us through the rules.

[Ria Lina]

The rule is that you put on a blindfold and then everyone else that you're playing with has to avoid being tagged by you. But you get clues and what you do is you say Marco and everyone has to say Polo when you say Marco so that you can get an idea of where they are.

[Greg Jenner]

You're echo locating.

[Ria Lina]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Cartographically. Is that how Marco Polo traveled the world, Sharon? Echolocating.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

You know, I have to continue my research because I haven't been able to unearth the foundational document for the swimming pool game.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is the so what do you know? Where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And you've probably heard of the name Marco Polo, much like Ria. You may have known he was a medieval famous traveler. You may even have played the famous swimming pool game, Marco Polo. Thank you, Ria. Now, sadly, this is a 20th century invention, not something that Marco did splashing around in the canals of Venice when he was a little boy. If you've travelled to Venice. Oh, aren't you fancy. You will have flown to the Marco Polo airport. You may have stayed in the Marco Polo Hotel. He's been the subject of a Netflix series. If you're a die hard Doctor who fan and you've seen the original 1960s miniseries, you'll know that Marco Polo's in there too. He gets around, this famous traveler. But what was the real historical story behind the big name? Did Marco Polo really go to China? And why is there a sheep named Darth after him? Let's find out. Professor Sharon, can we start at the beginning? When was Marco Polo born and what was his family situation like? Is he. Was he wealthy? Is he born into privilege?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, he was born in 1254, so mid 13th century into a merchant family of Venice. But we don't know very much about his childhood. But to Be fair. In the Middle Ages, even future kings leave little to no trace in the historical record.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. So we know he was born in 1254. And that's it.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

That's right.

[Greg Jenner]

Helpful. I'll turn to you, Ria. What do you imagine his childhood was like in medieval Venice before little bambino Marco was splashing around in the canals?

[Ria Lina]

I have to say, that really helps place things for me, because I don't know how old Venice is, but it's at least as old as the 1200s. Right. Because at some point, they would have had to build all those canals. Right. So it wasn't there in marshy times, which is an official time period, by the way, if you didn't know that.

[Greg Jenner]

The marshy era.

[Ria Lina]

Yeah. There's the Iron Age and the marshy times, but I can imagine that. Okay, so Italy in the 1200s was a fascinating place. I know that. For example, there was a medical school in Salerno that taught both men and women. So I think that. I think it's more modern than we would think it would be in the 1200s. And him being born to a merchant family right there. It was a big dock, wasn't it, Venice? And all the ships went from there to all over the world. So I think that he was really well placed to be an explorer. Better than, say, a sheep farmer in the Alps.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, that's fantastic, Rhea. Yeah. The Marsh era, indeed. Venice, in fact, was founded several centuries before by refugees who were fleeing those Germanic invasions. And, you know, they came across a bunch of marshy little islands, and they figured the barbarians are not going to follow us here. But by the 13th century, Venice was a really big, important maritime republic, making its fortune from traveling the seas and bringing luxury stuff back to Venice and funneling through Venice to the rest of the world. And, you know, Venice really got its start with the First Crusade in 1099, and they developed a transport business shipping people back and forth to the Holy Land, you know, along with all that merchandise, the silk, spices, the good things like that.

[Greg Jenner]

So we call this the Silk Road. Despite it being seas. The Silk Road is this trade network.

[Ria Lina]

Wow. This is the original Silk Road.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So that's Venice. Sharon, tell us about Polo's family relations. Do we know of his siblings, mother, father?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

We don't know too much about his. The family of his generation yet, although we know a lot. Well, we know a relative a lot about his father, Nicolo, and his uncle Maffeo, because they took off to the east and they actually traveled to the Court of the Mongols. A decade before Marco went with them. So when Marco set out, the Polos were, you know, a merchant family, but they were certainly not part of that upper crust that furnished the dynasties of Doges and so forth. So all we know about them really is what Marco and his co author tell us in the prologue, the first 19 chapters of their book.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Ria, Marco grew up not really seeing his dad or his uncle because they were off gallivanting around Western Asia. And then suddenly one day they came back and they came back with a message for the Pope from the Mongol Emperor. But Daddy makes it up to little Marco by saying, I'll come back. I've delivered my message to the Pope and. And actually I quite fancy going back out again. Do you want to come?

[Ria Lina]

Well, he's old enough by then, but also imagine knowing that your dad is so close to home. And then he goes, sorry, I have to just detour for a couple of months to see the Pope. I'll be right back.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

That's just.

[Greg Jenner]

So the Polos now are. Pack of Polos, let's call them that. So Maffeo, Niccolo and Marco, they head back out to mongol China in 1271. Marco is a young. He's what, 17, 18? He's a young man.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

That's right.

[Greg Jenner]

And they travel to Acre, which is in the Holy Land of what we now call the Middle East. And they definitely go to China, Sharon. Because I, when I was a student about 20 years ago or something like that, there was a big sort of like, oh, did he really go to China? Did he make it up? Was he telling stories? But he definitely went to China, right?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

He definitely went to China.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Case closed.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Yeah, yeah. On the other hand, I should say, Greg, that if you asked Marco, had he been to China, he. He might have looked at you with puzzlement for a split second. Because I think for Marco and his family, they were traveling not to China, but to the court of the Great Khan. So they were traveling in the Mongol Empire. When the polis first arrived there, the Mongols ruled what we would consider now northern China, because they had conquered that from the dynasty, the previous dynasty, ruling it. And it wasn't until the Polos had been at the court of the Great Khan for half a decade or so that Khubilai completed his conquest of what we would now call Southern China, which was the empire of the Southern Song. So this had the effect of uniting the territories that hadn't been unified under single rule for a few centuries there, but which basically corresponds to our modern nation state of China. So the Polos were actually on the scene for this big turning point in world history.

[Greg Jenner]

Listeners, if you want to know more about the Mongols, we did an episode on Chinggis Khan, the grandfather of Kublai Khan or Genghis Khan, I guess, more famous name. But Chinggis is what we called him. He's there, he's quite impressed by Kublai Khan and the capital, Dadu or Khanbalik. Do you want to guess how long the Polos stay in this part of.

[Ria Lina]

The world on this trip?

[Greg Jenner]

Well, let's call it a trip, but it's quite a long trip.

[Ria Lina]

Let's go 20 years.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a really good guess. It's 24 years.

[Ria Lina]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So you've done very well. You're very good at this, Rhea. You've got incredible knowledge here whether it's.

[Ria Lina]

Pulling it from I don't know where.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, amazing. But yeah, they're there for 24 years. And Sharon, we get a sense then that Marco Polo, even though he arrives as a 17 year old, he becomes a man in China, in Mongol controlled China. What does he tell us about his life in Mongol China?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, he tells us basically 0, 24 years.

[Greg Jenner]

Marco, come on.

[Ria Lina]

He's too busy having fun.

[Greg Jenner]

You talked about a book. What have we got?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, I mean we know his book today generally as Marco Polo's Travels. And when you see that travels on the title, you know, what are you expecting? You're expecting to hear about somebody's travels. But actually the first versions of Marco's book were called not the Travels but the Description of the World. So of course that title puts emphasis not on Marco the traveler, but the world that he came to know. So the book consists of 233 chapters, some of them really short, some of them longer. But only 19 of those 233 chapters are devoted to a kind of overview of all three of them going to Asia and back. The rest of the chapters are really about the places, sometimes in formulaic and kind of tedious fashion of just there's this place. And then three days journey later there's this place and then five days after that there's this place. You know, sometimes modern readers who pick up the book are a little bit surprised and maybe just a tad disappointed.

[Ria Lina]

You know, I'm beginning to wonder whether his dad made him go to his room and just write down what happened today. And he's like, today we went to place A and tomorrow we're going to place B. Did it.

[Greg Jenner]

Sharon? Marco Polo tells us some really interesting things about you know, life in the Mongol court, but also kind of wider administrative aspects. And two of the things I think that are particularly interesting would be the postal system.

[Ria Lina]

Yeah, I have to say, I did not expect to be this excited about the wider administrative organization.

[Greg Jenner]

Welcome to the nerd show over here.

[Ria Lina]

And you gave me a notebook and pen. I'm writing this down.

[Greg Jenner]

That's it. You know, this is what. We knew you were coming in. We thought we'd go fully nerd. Sharon, the postal system and paper money are two things that Polo is particularly intrigued by. These aren't brand new inventions, but these are things the Mongol dynasty are renowned for. So can you talk us through them?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Right, okay. The postal system. Yeah. And so your American listeners would recognize this as a medieval model for the Pony Express. But actually, yeah, the Mongol system was called the Yam. And it had many precedents in the ancient and medieval worlds, China, Persia and elsewhere. But of course, the Mongol Empire was vaster than any of those. So the distances we're talking about were much greater. Horses, or sometimes just runners, depending on the terrain, would be posted at stations every, we don't know, maybe three miles or so. By relaying like this, they could cover, let's say, 10 days journey for normal travelers in a day and a night. Marco tells us about paper money because.

[Greg Jenner]

Marco Polo's particularly fascinated because paper money is not in use in Europe, is it, at this time.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Oh, no. I mean, so the idea that you had money that was good, you know, over the vast stretch of empire is just mind blowing. But also mind blowing is the idea that anyone would look at a piece of paper and think that you could buy anything with it that, you know, it had any worth at all.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Let's move on to something even shinier than paper money, which is jewels. Shiny, shiny jewels. Marco Polo listed three techniques for unearthing natural diamonds in India. Interestingly enough. Can you guess what these techniques might have been? I'll give you a clue, Riya. One of them involves eagles. What, the big flappy birds?

[Ria Lina]

Sorry? Three techniques for getting.

[Greg Jenner]

For finding. For diamonds. Okay.

[Ria Lina]

Nearly. One of them is take it off of someone else who's already got some.

[Greg Jenner]

That's definitely a technique. Sure.

[Ria Lina]

Right. The second one is dig for them where they're made in the earth.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a very sensible technique. Yeah.

[Ria Lina]

And then the third one is train your eagle to pick them out of magpie nests.

[Greg Jenner]

I like that. That's a very smart.

[Ria Lina]

I think those are my three highly informed decisions. Ask me how many diamonds I have.

[Greg Jenner]

How many Diamonds do you have?

[Ria Lina]

Yeah, none.

[Greg Jenner]

None.

[Ria Lina]

None of those worked for me.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry, sorry to hear that. Sharon, is Rhea about to be a very, very wealthy person with her diamond industry?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

I think she was pretty close. So Marco Polo tells us. Marco Polo tells us about the way diamonds were collected in the province of Motopally on the east coast of India. So the diamonds were located in the mountains. So you let the rain wash them to the surface. Then in the dry season you can go in and collect them in the gorges and the caverns. So on the one hand you can just pick them up, but on the other hand in the caverns there are poisonous snakes there that are function as a deterrent.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

So but more interestingly, they took pieces of meat into the cavern and they threw them in so the diamonds would stick to the meat. Then eagles come and grab the meat. So you can either chase the eagles off and grab the diamond studded meat or if the eagles had already eaten the meat, just wait for the diamonds to come out the other end.

[Ria Lina]

Honestly, at this point it is easier to just go and take them off of somebody else. I'm not endorsing that. I'm not endorsing that as a method. I'm just saying it just strikes me as easier.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, arguably that's not mining, that's theft. But sure, sure. Okay.

[Ria Lina]

Well we didn't pick up. We didn't say mining, did we?

[Greg Jenner]

We didn't say mining. Maybe I didn't say mining. Okay, fair enough.

[Ria Lina]

In fact, technically none of those are mining.

[Greg Jenner]

Sharon. I think at the top of the show we mentioned Marco Polo sheep, which sounds delightful. What's that about?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, you know, Marco surprisingly often waxes lyrical about a region's animal life. And in the Pamir Mountains, the highest place in the world, he finds very large wild sheep with huge horns from which, as he tells us, shepherds made big bowls that they eat from. So today these sheep are drawing the attention both of big game hunters on the one hand and environmentalists on the other. And we know them as Marco Polo sheep.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah, that's fantastic.

[Ria Lina]

I thought they had a hole in the middle.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. He talks about luxury goods that were very valuable back in Europe and in the wider world that were from the animal kingdom Rhea. If I say to you ambergris and musk, do you know what those two things are?

[Ria Lina]

Will Vomit.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

It is whale vomit.

[Greg Jenner]

I didn't know there was a song.

[Ria Lina]

But yes, there is now. Ambergris doesn't smell. It's funny that we use it for perfumes.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Yeah, we do, because it doesn't smell.

[Ria Lina]

Nice, but it is this horrendous yellowy kind of gelatin. Gelatinous, maybe. Well, I don't know if that's quite the right term that can wash up, but if you find any on a beach that sells for good money, it's.

[Greg Jenner]

Quids in, isn't it? Yeah, it's tens of thousands of pounds. Yes, it's whale phlegm. And so ambergris was very luxurious used in perfumes, as you say. Musk was extracted from the anal glands of certain types of deer, I believe, Sharon, is that correct?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Yeah, deer and oxen, I guess. And it's no accident that Marco Polo really pays attention to these because the Polo seem to have traded in musk. And after they returned to Venice, they. A good part of their increased fortune, we think, came from their trafficking in musk. So an animal secretion again, valued in the making of perfume.

[Greg Jenner]

And his final mission at the end of these 24 years is to escort a bride quite a long way. Sharon, is this a sort of fairy tale occasion? Is this a big royal wedding? Is it? Harry and Meghan, Mark 2.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

So Khubilai's great nephew, who is the Ilkhan, the subcon of Persia, sent a request to uncle saying, you know, my chief wife has died. I would like another bride from her same tribe. Can you send me one? So Khubilai assembled a huge escort wedding party. And we can just imagine the Polos jumping forward to ask to be included in this imperial party because this was a chance for them to sail back in the direction of Venice anyway, after so many years with the great Khan.

[Greg Jenner]

And they get back to Venice in 1295. So the polos get off the boat and everyone's like, where have you been?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, I hope they got a warm welcome at home.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

But in fact, you know, Marco stepped very quickly into Venice's political conflicts, et cetera, all around the Mediterranean. So we're not really sure what happened when he got home, but within four years he was in jail in Genoa. So they're the great rivals of the Venetians. And so, yeah, he found himself in the year 1298, cooped up with other prisoners. And this is when and how the book got first written down.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so he's in a Genoese prison. He has survived 24 years in the court of the terrifyingly, you know, famously fearsome Kublai Khan. He has survived thousands of miles of voyages. He survived everything you can. He gets back home and four years later he's in jail. It's not ideal. It's quite bad.

[Ria Lina]

I'm hearing white privilege. That's what I'm hearing.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

That's what saved.

[Ria Lina]

He was probably due jail for 24 years over there. But they just went.

[Greg Jenner]

He was just coasting around going, hello, hello, hello.

[Ria Lina]

He comes back, everyone's white. He's like, wait a minute.

[Greg Jenner]

So unlucky for him. Lucky for us, though, because, Sharon, we get the book because his cellmate is a renowned writer, but with a lovely name, Rustichello.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Yeah, from Pisa, because Pisa was another one of Genoa's trade rivals. And we know of Rustichello because he wrote an Arthurian romance, and so the two teamed up. Actually, in the book, when you have I or we, it's often Rustichello talking, not Marco.

[Greg Jenner]

Are they co authors?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

They are. We would call them co authors, and I guess we would be tempted to call Rustichello a kind of ghostwriter. But unlike modern ghostwriters, he doesn't disappear into the background. He's like, front and center saying, you know, I, Rustichello of Pisa, got Marco to tell me these stories, and I'm writing them down.

[Greg Jenner]

Fair enough.

[Ria Lina]

Any excuse to insert yourself, right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, why not? You know, you've gone to the hard work of all that scribbling in the cell. You know, it's probably not very good lighting.

[Ria Lina]

It wasn't just the scribbling. He got him to tell his story.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, that's the true. That's the other thing, isn't it? He extracted these stories from him. Okay. And the book, as you said earlier, Sharon, is not called Travels of Marco Polo. It is called Description of the world, composed in 1298. But who's it for, this book? Is he just dotting down his memories because, you know, he doesn't want them to get lost? Or is it. Has he got an audience? Is there someone he intends it for? Is this his way of getting out of prison?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, Rustichella's prologue starts out by addressing emperors and kings, dukes and marquis counts, knights, townsfolk, all of you who wish to know the diverse regions of the world. So, you know, this is like an act of social imagining that corresponds to no actual audience that you could have had in the Middle Ages. And it's pretty unique. The only. It really strongly echoes the beginning of Rustichello's one romance where, you know, he's trying to get the biggest readership possible.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. When you start with kings, you're definitely aiming high. But then by the end, he's like townspeople, anyone, whoever is nearby, hey, You. Yeah, please read my book. Okay. And so he calls it a description of the world because he's seen the world. So it's quite a grand title. He's kind of showing off a bit.

[Ria Lina]

Well, I question who picked the title at this point. I feel like Rustichello really had a lot of sway in the making of this book. He's like, first of all, we're gonna write it in fren. Second of all, I'm in this book. I didn't go on the trip for 24 years, but I'm in the book. Third of all, it's gonna be read by everybody. So I don't know that Marco Polo had much say in what it was gonna be called.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. He is released from prison eventually. Presumably, they're like, ah, all right, the war's over. Off you go. What does he do with his time? Does he settle down? Does he marry? Does he start a different career?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

He marries. And actually he marries well above his station. So we start to see, you know, the profit that he's getting probably from the musk trade. He marries very well. He has a couple daughters who also marry very well above the Polo's original social status. And then we. We really don't know much more than that. We have a couple of contracts mainly having to do with musk. And then he dies in 1324, age 70. A ripe old age for those days.

[Greg Jenner]

What was the name of his wife?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Donata Badoer.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely. So he died in 1324, age 70. And his travel book outlived him because, of course, you have translated it, and it's well known, and as Rhea said, people were shouting his name in swimming pools throughout the 20th century. So can you tell us about the book, this. This fantastic, extraordinary document? How did it outlive him, and how did it spread through Europe?

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Well, this was a best seller in the Middle Ages, if you judge by the number of manuscripts that survived. But most of them survived because the book was fairly rapidly translated into Latin by a Dominican friar. And it's that Latin copy that then gets retranslated into a bunch of languages, back into Italian dialects, but also, you know, further on into Northern European languages.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance window. This is the part of the show where Rhea and I sit quietly and study our navigation charts while Professor Sharon has two minutes to tell us something we need to know about Marco Polo. My stopwatch is ready, so, Professor Sharon, please take it away.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Okay. Thanks, Greg. What I'd like to emphasize, I think, is how surprising Marco Polo's book is on so many levels. So we've already touched on the point that it was written not as a travel narrative and that despite being authored by two Italians, it was composed in. Not in Italian, but in French. But in his own time, Marco Polo was a real myth buster. One spectacular example is when he tells his readers that now, hang on, unicorns are not at all as they are described in contemporary bestiaries and encyclopedias, but along with that single horn protruding from their forehead, they, as he says, have hair like buffaloes and feet like elephants. What he's describing, of course, is a rhinoceros, which, as he emphasizes, decidedly does not let itself be captured by a virgin. At least as wondrous, I think, is the way Marco identifies the many sites across South, Southeast, and East Asia that are sources of the spices, especially pepper, but also cloves, nutmeg, galangal, and other exotic commodities that European merchants like himself would previously have accessed only at Mediterranean ports such as Acre or Alexandria. What might read to us like that tedious repetition would have held the fascination of secret intel, I think, for his compatriots. Now, for modern readers, it's often astonishing to see Marco recount customs like polygamy, cremation, even anthropophagy with equanimity, even though they would have been unspeakably shocking to Latin Christians back home. His book lacks any divisions of the world and its peoples into capital E East or capital W West. And he makes no mention of the Old World continents, Asia, Africa, and Europe that are the staple of Latin European cartography of the time. His idolaters lumps together peoples we would today identify as Buddhists, Confucians, Hindus, animists, and so forth. But they are not bad unless they attack merchants. So these are just some surprising aspects of Marco Polo's book, but I think we need to recognize that this was a voice in the Middle Ages that we, you know, can strike us as surprisingly modern. And that's why I think Marco Polo is just such a wonderful subject for rediscovery. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much. I'd just like to say huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the spectacular Professor Sharon Kinoshita from UC Santa Cruz. Thank you, Sharon.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Thanks, Greg. I had a great time.

[Greg Jenner]

It was wonderful having you on.

[Ria Lina]

Thank you. That was wonderful.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it was absolutely fascinating. And in Comedy Corner, we have the sensational Ria Lina. Thank you, Ria.

[Ria Lina]

No, thank you for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

It's been a delight. I've learned all about Eagle poo and diamonds and all sorts.

[Ria Lina]

Eagle Guado.

[Greg Jenner]

Join me next time as we navigate more historical wonders. But for now, I'm off to go and train a bunch of eagles, then chuck some juicy steaks into my local jewellers. I'm gonna be rich. Bye.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, I'm back with a brand new series of history's secret heroes.

[Ria Lina]

And he tells her that she will.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Be sent to to France as a secret agent. She will work undercover and if she is caught, she's going to be shot. Join me for more stories of unsung heroes, acts of resistance, deception and courage from World War II. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. This is history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the first World War.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

You know, he would look at these.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Men and he would say, don't worry.

[Sharon Kinoshita]

Sonny, you'll have as good a face.

[Greg Jenner]

As any of us when I'm done with you.

[Helena Bonham Carter]

Join me, Alex von Tunzelman for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.