Marie Antoinette: last French queen before the Revolution

Summary

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You're Dead to Me – Marie Antoinette: Last French Queen Before the Revolution

Host: Greg Jenner (Public Historian)
Guests: Professor Catherine Asprey (University of Warwick), Jen Brister (Comedian)
Date: October 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the legendary and controversial life of Marie Antoinette, the last Queen of France before the Revolution. The panel—host Greg Jenner, historian Professor Catherine Asprey, and comedian Jen Brister—sort through myths, pop culture legends, and actual historical evidence to paint a nuanced portrait of Marie Antoinette. They tackle everything from her Habsburg beginnings, teen marriage, unconsummated royal romance, infamous extravagance, relentless gossip, and her ultimate end at the guillotine.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marie Antoinette’s Background: Austrian Princess to French Queen

• Born: Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria, 2 November 1755, youngest daughter of Empress Maria Theresa and Emperor Francis I.
  • "The Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria was born on 2 November 1755, the 15th child of 16 of the Empress Maria Theresa..." – Prof. Asprey [04:30]
• Grew up at the Viennese court, speaking German, French, and Italian.
• Was betrothed young to Louis XVI (then the Dauphin of France) to cement the diplomatic pact between Austria and France after centuries of enmity.
  • "All the girls in the family had Maria as a first name, so they tended to avoid that." – Prof. Asprey [05:25]
  • Joke: "How would you solve a problem like Maria?" – Greg Jenner [05:29]

2. Preparation for France: Makeover and Education

• Marie was schooled in French language and etiquette, but was considered an “airhead” by her brother—focused more on arts than studies.
  • "Her brother rather unkindly called her an airhead." – Prof. Asprey [09:19]
  • Preparation included painful orthodontics, ballet, corsets to fix her silhouette, and learning to carry herself as the French expected. [11:15]

3. Marriage & Arrival at Versailles

• Married to Louis XVI at 14; Louis was 15.
• Massive, expensive royal wedding – ostentatious gifts as the regime tried to project wealth amidst financial crisis.
  • “...she gets a hugely expensive wedding gift...a cabinet filled with jewelry and precious objects.” – Prof. Asprey [14:24]
• Tragedy at the celebration: 132 people died in a crowd crush during a fireworks display. [15:14]
  • “A stray firework set fire to the Temple of Hymen, and in the ensuing chaos, 132 people were crushed to death.” – Prof. Asprey [15:14]

4. Awkward Royal Bedroom: The Unconsummated Marriage

• Public "going to bed" ceremony, but the marriage remained unconsummated for seven years, leading to political anxiety.
• Speculation: lack of knowledge, possible medical issues on Louis’ side (possibly a minor surgical procedure eventually helped). [17:11]
  • “Louis did not rise to the occasion. The marriage was unconsummated for seven years.” – Prof. Asprey [17:11]
  • "They spent seven years just trying to figure it out…" – Greg Jenner [18:21]

5. Life as Queen: Isolation, Pastimes, and Public Perception

• Became queen at 19 after Louis XV’s death—both were young and inexperienced.
• Antoinette hated stiff court etiquette, often retreated to private circles, and preferred balls, gambling, and nights out over public duties. [19:48]
• Her lack of interest in traditional responsibilities and her foreign birth fostered resentment at court and among the public.
  • “She is supposed to be representing France...her role is to bear children. So she’s in a slightly awkward position and accused of meddling…” – Prof. Asprey [25:17]

6. Fashion, Luxury, and Scandals

• Ordered approximately 300 new dresses a year from Rose Bertin, fueling rumors of extravagance. [27:06]
  • “It was 300. 300 a year. 300 a year. Brand new dresses.” – Greg Jenner [27:07]
• Damned if she did, damned if she didn’t: criticized for both lavish and simple fashion choices.
• Private life at the Petit Trianon led to rumors she “cosplayed” as a shepherdess with pink sheep—seen as evidence she mocked real peasants. [30:10]
• Court gossip about the parentage of her children, fueled by the long delay before giving birth and her close female friendships.

7. Diamond Necklace Affair & Media Smears

• Infamous 1785 scandal: con artist duped Cardinal Rohan into buying an extravagant necklace under the pretense of currying favor with the Queen. She had refused the necklace twice, but was painted by the media as greedy and manipulative. [32:44–34:11]
• Ruthless pornographic pamphlets and prints accused her of orgies, lesbian affairs (notably with Madame de Polignac and Princesse de Lamballe), and infidelity—tools designed to destroy her reputation and justify anti-monarchical sentiment.
  • “They are attack...designed to humiliate her...to say that she’s horny, she’s cheating on the king, she can’t be trusted…” – Greg Jenner [38:15]
  • "Titles include the Uterine Furies of Marie Antoinette, the Royal Orgy, the Royal Dildo…" – Prof. Asprey [39:04]

8. Reality vs. Rumor: Politics, Influence, and Love

• Struggled to navigate the complexities of royal power without overstepping, as the King had no mistress to absorb the gossip.
• Had one significant relationship: Swedish Count Axel von Fersen; modern scholarship suggests this was likely a real romance, evidenced by encrypted letters. [41:04]
  • "The love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Fersen." – Prof. Asprey [41:04]

9. French Revolution: Downfall and Flight

• France crippled by debt (aided by funding US Revolution), economic disaster, and political pressure for change.
• Attempted to flee Paris with her family in 1791—botched escape, easily recognized by faces on coins and their own incompetence. [44:22]
  • "The first problem is they got lost...They then stop for meals as if they've got all the time in the world..." – Prof. Asprey [44:46]
• Brought back to Paris in disgrace. The family’s position became increasingly untenable.

10. Trial and Execution

• After the monarchy fell, King Louis XVI was executed in January 1793.
• Marie Antoinette faced a show trial in October 1793, charged with crimes ranging from treason to incest—she reportedly only reacted emotionally to the latter charge. [48:01]
  • “...accused of orchestrating orgies, planning a massacre, liaising with foreign enemies, and incest with her son.” – Prof. Asprey [48:01]
• Condemned and guillotined on 16 October 1793, at age 37.
  • Her (alleged) last words: "Pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose," after stepping on the executioner’s foot [50:47].
  • "That's heartbreaking, isn't it? It's really so heartbreaking." – Jen Brister [50:59]

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Pop Culture, Legacy, and Modern Resonance

• Mythbusting: Many infamous stories, like “let them eat cake,” are false or massively exaggerated.
• Media Treatment: Marie Antoinette was subjected to an early form of tabloid celebrity, suffering character assassination and invasive rumor-mongering—parallels are drawn to modern media treatment of women.
• Legacy: Her sense of style defined late-18th-century taste (“Marie Antoinette style”), showing the enduring power of her brand even after her destruction.
• Feminism & Scapegoating: The panel reflects on how Antoinette’s story exposes patterns in how powerful women are treated, scrutinized, and scapegoated through history and into the present.

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• Fashion Double Bind:
  “She is supposed to be representing France...But again, Marie Antoinette finds herself criticized—you know, damned if you do, damned if you don’t...even in the 20th century, if a queen were to re-wear an outfit, it was commented on!” – Prof. Asprey [28:17]

• On Scandalous Gossip:
  “They are attack...designed to humiliate her, to scandalize her, to say that she’s horny, she’s cheating on the king, she can’t be trusted, all of those things.” – Greg Jenner [38:15]

• On Political Hostility:
  “It’s not initially the French people, it’s those at court that she’s alienating because she doesn’t want to be with any of the old guard...there’s a very substantial group who are anti-Austrian..." – Prof. Asprey [35:01]

• Her Last Words:
  “Pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose.” – Prof. Asprey (quoting Marie Antoinette stepping on the executioner’s foot) [50:47]

• On Marie’s Many Contradictions (Nuance Window):
  "Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us our own biases. So to different people, she will mean quite different things...Her most tangible legacy is the impact she had on interior design...Our collective fascination with her riches to rags story shows no sign at all of fading..." – Prof. Asprey [52:31]

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• Background & Name Origins – [04:30]
• Makeover & Education – [11:15]
• Wedding Disaster – [15:14]
• Bedroom Ceremony/Unconsummated Marriage – [16:03–18:52]
• Queenly Duties & Partying – [19:38–20:38]
• Fashion & Extravagance – [27:06–29:26]
• Petit Trianon/Self-Care Stereotypes – [30:10]
• Diamond Necklace Affair – [32:44]
• Pamphlet Attacks & Media – [37:48–39:46]
• Real Lover, Letters with Axel von Fersen – [41:04]
• Flight to Varennes (Escape Fiasco) – [44:22]
• Trial & Execution – [48:01]
• Her Death and Legacy – [50:38]
• Nuance Window (Professor Asprey summary) – [52:31]

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Tone and Delivery

• The episode is lively, accessible, and witty, blending rigorous history with sharp comic observations.
• Jen Brister provides an “everyperson” perspective, voicing common pop culture beliefs (and misperceptions).
• Professor Asprey supplies detail and nuance, guiding the myth-busting while humanizing Marie Antoinette.

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Episode Takeaways

• Marie Antoinette was neither the villainous libertine nor the shallow fashionista of rumor, but a complex woman caught in the crossfire of international politics, gender double standards, and relentless media scrutiny.
• Her story is emblematic of both the dangers of myth and the enduring power of celebrity culture.
• The legacy of her image, for better and worse, continues to echo in debates about women in the public eye today.

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For deeper dives, the episode recommends the Catherine de Medici episode, and books/TV series on Marie Antoinette and the French Revolution.

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Transcript

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Jen Brister]

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[Professor Catherine Asprey]

We save.

[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello, Greg here. Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of youf're Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are hopping into our hoop skirts and styling our hair in the French fashion as we travel back to 18th century France to learn about Queen Marie Antoinette. And to help us separate myth from reality, we have two very special courtiers in History Corner. She's professor of French Studies at the University of Warwick. Her research focuses on French culture in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods, especially plays, prints and novels. She's the author of Narrative Responses to the Trauma of the French Revolution is Professor Catherine Asprey. Welcome Kate.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Thank you very much for inviting me.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the telly, Live of the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Maybe heard her on podcasts like wtb, which means Women Talking Bollocks. I can't say that on Radio 4, but I can on the podcast or her other podcast, Memory Lane. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Hernan, Cortez and Melinsin and of course Emma of Normandy. It's Jen Brister. Welcome back, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Thank you, Greg. I'm delighted to be back.

[Greg Jenner]

We have previously done together English history, Spanish History, Mexican History, Obvious question. Do you parlez vous francaise?

[Jen Brister]

Un petit peut? Oh, let's like, don't. I don't want to get into it because I don't embarrass Kate or yourself, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you.

[Jen Brister]

But I am very excited about this particular episode, not least because it is French history. What a joy. But because I actually know who this person is. And this is the first time I've been invited onto the show with the historical figure. That's whose name I recognize. So I'm delighted.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, we're not punishing you anymore.

[Jen Brister]

No, just like, yes, I know who this person is.

[Greg Jenner]

Marie Antoinette. You know the name? So do you know some of the story?

[Jen Brister]

Look, I know the story that was told when I was a child. And I think most of the myths around Marie Antoinette are, as we have learned later as an adult, are complete lies. So I'm going to say almost everything I know about this historical figure is not true. So I'm really intrigued to hear the truth of her life and of her impact in French history.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? Where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I bet you all shouted, let them eat cake. She didn't say it. Come on. You may have seen Sofia Coppola's fabulous 2006 film Marie Antoinette with the punk rock soundtrack starring Kirsten Dance, or the most recent Marie Antoinette TV drama series on the BBC. Of course, you might also remember the shocking Grammy Award winning performance by heavy metal titans gojira at the 2024 Paris Olympic opening ceremony, accompanied by numerous decapitated Marie Antoinettes in blood red dresses. Marie Antoinette is a modern pop culture icon, but what was her life really like? How did an Austrian princess become France's doomed queen? And how many dresses did she own? Let's find out. All right, Professor Kate, let's start at the beginning. That seems like a sensible place to begin. When and where was Marie Antoinette born? And was that her name?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria was born on 2 November 1755, the 15th child of 16 of the Empress Maria Theresa, ruler of the Habsburg dynasty from 1740 and father, Emperor Francis I. Her mother, Maria Theresa, was a political powerhouse and played a huge role in managing military and diplomatic affairs. In 1756, she made a momentous alliance with Austria's age old enemy, France, reversing 200 years of hostility. And as a result, Austria was drawn into a global conflict known subsequently as the Seven Years War. When Fighting over British and French colonial possessions in the Americas and the Caribbean spread to Europe. At court in Vienna, they spoke German, French and Italian. And Maria. Antonia grew up sliding between being called Antonia and Antoine. All the girls in the family had Maria as a first name, so they tended to avoid that.

[Greg Jenner]

They were all called Maria.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They were all called Maria. It was a family tradition. The girls all had Maria as a first name.

[Greg Jenner]

How would you solve a problem like Maria?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

You use the second name. Because she was also one of the youngest in the family. She was also referred to as Antoinette, which is the French diminutive, meaning little Antoine. And in the end, that's the name that stuck.

[Jen Brister]

It's cute.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

They do that in Spain as well. They have a little diminutive name.

[Greg Jenner]

They're all called Maria. I feel like that's 16 kids. Come on.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Well, the boys weren't called Maria.

[Jen Brister]

What were they called?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Franz Leopold Joseph. Good, good, good. Solid.

[Greg Jenner]

Good, solid. For going to war.

[Jen Brister]

And so she grew up in Vienna.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She grew up in Vienna.

[Jen Brister]

Right. So there's fact numero uno that I did not know. I thought Marie Antoinette was French, so that's. That's quite embarrassing. Was Austria part of the Austro Hungarian Empire at that point?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The Holy Roman Empire.

[Greg Jenner]

Good knowledge.

[Jen Brister]

The Holy Rolio called it Holy Roman Roman Empire. All right, okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Were you. Were you Jenny at any point, Jen, Were you. Did you have a rebrand?

[Jen Brister]

I honestly, when I was a child, if Jenny came up, even when I was small, I was like, you gotta knock that on the head. I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a Jenny. So that's why it's always been Jen. And the only person that ever referred to me as Jennifer was my mum when I'd done something wrong. So it's just Jen.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so we have a princess, we have an archduchess. You can presumably guess what her future is going to be. Gen, in terms of what Mother is planning for her.

[Jen Brister]

Yes. I imagine she's planning a very prestigious marriage into a very prestigious court in France.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, bang on. I mean, that's the plan, right?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Absolutely. Got it in one.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So we're minutes into the episode already. Wedding bells. We're talking about little girl here.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes, we are.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, wait a second, hang on, rewind. I was talking about in the future. So she had been betrothed at as a child.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She is betrothed as a child. Maria Theresa's plan is for her to marry the French King Louis XV's grandson, who's also called Louis. We've got all the girls, all the girls in Austria called Maria and all the boys in France called Louis. The idea is that it will cement the political alliance. Negotiations don't begin in earnest until Antoinette is about 10. Louis father. Louis, father. Little Louis. Little Louis father has died and he becomes heir to the throne in France is known as the dauphin. And at that point Maria Theresa decides that this is going to be a great way of reinforcing this new alliance between the age old enemies Austria and France. Louis is only a year older than Antoinette, but that's considered good because they're quite close in age. But he's described as a lanky, silent nurse, nervous lad.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, so aren't all teenage. I was gonna say lanky.

[Greg Jenner]

Quite a standard boy. That isn't a teenage boy. You said she spoke French, Italian, German.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So yes, Court. Court speaks a mixture of the three languages. And Maria Theresa finds two French actors to teach her daughter French pronunciation and conversation, ready to start preparing her for moving to France.

[Jen Brister]

And this is at the age of 10 that they start this preparation for her. And do they have like, they've already decided. Is it quite usual then to get married, you know, before they're 16, or is it. Oh, it is.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It is normal, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

For average people, no, but for princes, for dynasties, but for royalty, yeah. So let's talk about Mary Antoinette. Antoinette. Let's, we're calling her Maria Marie Antoinette. What's, what's, what's, what's her name for her?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She, she signs letters as Antoine or as Antoinette.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, let's call her Antoinette then. Okay, Antoinette Jen, do you think she's a good student? You know, she's got these teachers, these French actors teaching her, you know, how to, how to converse and be witt and chatty. Do you think she's a good student? Do you think she's a bit ditzy? Do you think she's distracted? What's your vibe?

[Jen Brister]

I've got no idea. But I'm going to say that I imagine she's a good student because she does go on to do very well in the French court. So I imagine that she learns French quite easily if she's already speaking German and Italian in court. Am I close?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I think ditzy might be closer than.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, no, I was really fighting for.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I was really fighting for her. Come on, Antoinette. Well, her brother rather unkindly called her an airhead. She was allegedly very easily distracted. Not particularly interested in serious topics. Much prefers dancing, music, drawing to reading. The French court get wind of the fact that she's been taught French by two actors, so they decide to send a more appropriate tutor, a man called the Abbe de Vermont, who then has a couple of years at most to prepare her to be wife to the heir to the throne. But she's already 13 and it's a bit late to make a substantial difference really to the gaps in her age education. He teaches her to read and write in French. He teaches her a little bit about French history and tries to explain how to behave at court. Because there's a very strict etiquette at French court. She hadn't liked her previous governess, so the Abbe tried hard to make her like him in the hope that this would help remedy the poor education she'd had up until then. But in making his lessons fun, he prioritized style over substance. And when she gets to France, her education is found to be somewhat lacking.

[Jen Brister]

So she has got to that point now at the age of 13, she's going to now move away from her home in the Vienna court to go to Paris to live with her new husband who is 14. Wow, this is quite something, isn't it? And already she leaves with the reputation of being a bit of an airhead.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, but she's not ready yet, Jen. She has to be prepared in other ways.

[Jen Brister]

Well, surely she has to have a period.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Crucially. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. No.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, you can't marry a young girl off to have children without that.

[Greg Jenner]

No. You remember all those 90s makeover sort of shows that you'd see and kind of classic, the kind of rom coms as well, where the girl takes off her glasses and she's hot. They kind of do that to her, but it's a lot more cruel and unusual, isn't it? Okay.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I mean, it is. Are you ready for how she's remodeled for her French future husband? She has a French hairdresser sent to style her hair in the French way because she has a characteristic Habsburg forehead. So they want to try and do the hair so that it minimizes the foreignness of her forehead.

[Jen Brister]

What do you mean by Habsburg forehead? Is it because her forehead is too far back?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

The Habsburgs were renowned for inbreeding and so they had a certain physical appearance. Appearance that was sort of renowned.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She had painful orthodontic work to straighten her teeth.

[Greg Jenner]

So braces at 14 is standard for a lot of teenagers now, but in the 18th century that is not more unusual. Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She also had to wear corsets to improve her silhouette.

[Jen Brister]

Right.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

A little bit of padding to disguise the fact that one of her shoulders was higher than the other. They had to bring in a French ballet master to teach her how to dance. With the large skirts, the high heels and a train, she has to learn how to walk and hold her head up in a manner appropriate for a future queen. So there's a lot of preparations going into making her, making her the real deal for when she gets to France.

[Greg Jenner]

Proper makeover.

[Jen Brister]

I get the ache when I'm expected to put foundation on. I'm like, please, I just can't be bothered. But this is way too much.

[Greg Jenner]

And then, yeah, she's sent off to France aged 14. So cue the problematic marriage klaxon, which we unfortunately have to honk a lot on this show. Jen, what words of wisdom would you give to a teenage girl heading off to a foreign land to marry an awkward, lanky, anxious stranger?

[Jen Brister]

Oh, my God. I don't know if I'm the right person to give this advice. Do you know what I mean? My advice would be stay true to yourself and don't compromise and make sure you get what you want out of this relationship.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, that's very good advice. Probably quite bad advice for the French court. That's probably going to rub up a lot, but quite annoyed if you showed up with that.

[Jen Brister]

Sure, I know. I mean, that's why I'm like, definitely not the right person to ask about that. So the advice would be the opposite.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, fit in, fit in.

[Jen Brister]

Don't stand out. Don't stand out and just do whatever.

[Greg Jenner]

Your husband, French as he can. And so when she arrives in France, what are you imagining? Are you sort of. Are you thinking Harry and Meghan? Is it Kate and Will? You know, what kind of. What's the vibe? Is it fun? Are people happy?

[Jen Brister]

You know, those are the only two options you have.

[Greg Jenner]

That's all you got?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Okay, I'm going to sidestep comparing the wedding to either. We'll call her Marie Antoinette. Now, once she reaches France, she adopts the name Marie Antoinette, okay? To sort of make her more French, she arrives in May 1770 and meets King Louis XV at Compiegne. She bowed low, but he scooped her up in a loving, fatherly hug.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, that's nice.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Apart from the fact that his reputation as a libertine perhaps means that it's slightly less nice than it might seem. She's then introduced to young Louis, her future husband and the extended family. And two days later, 16 May, the pair were married at Versailles and she became Dauphiness Dauphine of France.

[Jen Brister]

Libertine's just a shagger, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Libertine is a very posh word for. Yeah, Enjoyer of life.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, got you, got you.

[Greg Jenner]

Which, of course, in the 18th century.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Meant shagging as many women as he could. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

She gets a wedding gift.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She gets a hugely expensive wedding gift from her father in law. So, Louis xv. A cabinet filled with jewelry and precious objects. The whole marriage is on a really grand scale because he's trying to present his reign as really prosperous and successful, when in fact, the state finances aren't very healthy. So he's ruining the state for show. And Marie Antoinette is being unwittingly implicated in that deception because she's receiving a ridiculously extravagant set of jewelry as a wedding gift from her grandfather in law.

[Greg Jenner]

Famously, things often go wrong at weddings. Usually it's a sort of drunk uncle on the dance floor. Yeah, occasionally we've all seen that. Something. A minor scrape or something. But in this case, people die.

[Jen Brister]

What?

[Greg Jenner]

Quite a lot of people died.

[Jen Brister]

Do you mean members of the public?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

Yes. Like outside because of big crowds.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Exactly that. So there was a planned firework display for the people of Paris as a sort of a reward and to spread the love. Thunderstorms delayed it, and when the display did happen, a stray firework set fire to the Temple of Hymen, and in the ensuing chaos, 132 people were crushed to death.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

That's awful.

[Greg Jenner]

It's not a great omen for the marriage, is it, on your wedding day when. Yeah. The Temple of Hymen as well. Of course. Yes.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Just adds to the overall sense of.

[Jen Brister]

It being a bad omen.

[Greg Jenner]

That's not the end of it. Because Gen, on the wedding night, things get even more awkward. Do you know why? Why would it be awkward for the new married couple?

[Jen Brister]

Well, they don't know what they're doing.

[Greg Jenner]

Not just that, they don't know what they're doing with an audience.

[Jen Brister]

Why do they? Oh, they have to make sure that she's. That they.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

There's a going to bed ceremony.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, come on. It's hard. I mean, we've all remember our f. The first time. Can you imagine, with an audience, anything worse.

[Greg Jenner]

Kate, talk us through it.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the archbishop blesses the bed.

[Greg Jenner]

That's definitely gonna get you in the mood.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It's really gonna get you in the mood. Louis the 15th then hands the dolphin his night shirt. Grandfather is there offering advice. Marie Antoinette is receiving her night shirt in a neighboring room from another courtier, the Duchess of Chartres. They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shared the same bed.

[Jen Brister]

And at that point, everyone leaves.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

And then everyone leaves. Yes. So they're not actually.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so they're not watching.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They're not watching the consummation of the marriage.

[Jen Brister]

Thank God. Okay, that's fine. So it's not fine. It's awful. But that would have been way too much. So then they're left together in this very romantic mood. Isn't it super romantic.

[Greg Jenner]

Fireworks. People have died. Your grandfather is handing you, he's telling you what to do. You're like, yeah. The king's advice, was it useful? Kate, Did Louis rise to the occasion, so to speak?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Louis did not rise to the occasion. The marriage was unconsummated for seven years.

[Greg Jenner]

Is he gay or traumatized?

[Jen Brister]

He could be traumatized, right? There's a lot of 16.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

There's a lot of discussion over why was the marriage not consummated a long time.

[Jen Brister]

Because I can get like that day would have been very traumatic. But at some point, someone's got to get in the mood, haven't they? And also your adolescence, that's when all the hormones.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah, that's when you're at your randiest. Right. But nothing.

[Greg Jenner]

This is a huge constitutional problem. Right.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It is a massive future of the.

[Greg Jenner]

French monarchy and the Austrian sort of trade deal is at stake here.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

We don't know if it was personal hesitation, whether it was health related. In 1777, Marie Antoinette's brother Joseph visits incognito, and Louis confides in him about the issues that they're having in a letter. Joseph then writes that what they're doing was clearly never going to result in pregnancy. But after his visit, they do finally. So why did the marriage.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, did they know how to consummate their marriage?

[Greg Jenner]

No, it doesn't sound.

[Jen Brister]

No one had told them how to. So what?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They brought up strict Catholic. You don't.

[Greg Jenner]

So they spent seven years just. Just trying to figure it out, pumping the pillow and just sort of, you know, wrong hole.

[Jen Brister]

17. And then they start having a normal.

[Greg Jenner]

He has a marriage. He has a little procedure as well, doesn't he, Louie?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

He does so.

[Greg Jenner]

Which potentially may be a procedure on, you know.

[Jen Brister]

Sorry, what?

[Greg Jenner]

Well, I'm, you know, speculating, but he may have perhaps had pain in. In that area. So he might have needed a procedure to, you know, do something down there that loosens some skin, for example.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, so he might have needed to be circumcised or something.

[Greg Jenner]

Or something like that. We don't know. We are speculating, but, you know, but the procedure was done and soon after they were able to consummate. To consummate the marriage at the age of what, 21 and 22?

[Jen Brister]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Maybe some things are just best lost to history. We don't know why. Seven years. We'll just sort of, you know, write that off. Okay. So with the unconsummated marriage already proving an issue in 1774, so this was still four years into their not sleeping together problem. Suddenly Louis was the king of France because Louis XV died, making Marie Antoinette the queen of France. So she was 18 at this point. 19. Just about.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Just about 19.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Just turned 19. So the age at which we would normally maybe go to university or maybe get your first job. Her first job, Queen.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah. That's a lot.

[Greg Jenner]

What's the first thing she does, Kate, in terms of court politics, how does it go?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Not perhaps as well as it might have done.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I mean, they're both still very young. They're very inexperienced. Louis largely leaves her to her own devices. She has nothing to do because the marriage isn't consummated. She's not going to get pregnant, and therefore her sole reason for being at court can't exist. So she fills her time with gambling, with balls, with going incognito into Paris to balls, to the theatre. She gathers around her a group of young people nearer her own age. She's not interested in being polite to the older members of court. She hates the really strict etiquette of court. So she does all she can to sort of sidestep that. She'd rather have a little bit of privacy. She doesn't want to spend all her time in the public eye. And really, she carries on living the life she'd lived whilst she was the wife of the heir to France, rather than changing her behavior once she's become queen.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Jen, how do you think she's doing on ratemymonarch.com do you think the people of France are pleased about their new queen?

[Jen Brister]

I'm guessing the people of France, and they are very vocal as a people, are not at all happy with their new queen, who appears to be just having a big old jolly and ignoring the needs and wants of the people, particularly the working people of Paris, you know, and of France, rather. So I would imagine there's a lot of resentment and anger building the problems.

[Greg Jenner]

That will later arise in the French Revolution. They're already there, right?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They are already there, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Jane, how would you turn things around. If you were Marie Antoinette, what's your policy to get people to love you?

[Jen Brister]

Well, I would think I would do something for the people and make a really big gesture.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Jen Brister]

It's like, you know, oh, guys, I've got this great big party, and I'm gonna put it on for you. I love you, and I really want you to know that I care about you.

[Greg Jenner]

So you'd say, let them eat cake.

[Jen Brister]

I would say, guys, I'm really sorry that you're in poverty, but I'm just. Have you had jelly and ice cream before? She doesn't have a great deal of power, so I think maybe she would do something that's a little bit superficial, but maybe that's sensible.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. She does the most important thing, of course, she produces an heir. That is what makes an heir.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

That's really what makes a difference.

[Jen Brister]

She does.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She does produce an heir. Finally, she has a daughter, Marie Therese Charlotte, born in 1778. Another Marie, another Marie, born, of course, in front of the court, because child birth to a queen has to be public to prove that the child has come out of. Of her womb.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, so she. But she. It's a daughter. Disappointing.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Luckily, she then carries on with the child bearing. She has Louis Joseph in 1781, so he will die age 7. Just.

[Greg Jenner]

So he was the dofa.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

He was the dauphin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

He dies just before the start of the French Revolution in 1789. Louis Charles, who is born in 1785, and Sophie Helene Beatrice in 1786, who dies aged one. So she has four children, two of whom will die in her lifetime.

[Greg Jenner]

She has her sort of squad of ladies at court. She's got a particularly close friend, hasn't she, Kate?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes. Her close friend is called Madame de Polignac. She's named governess of the royal children, which caused a little bit of a stir at court because she doesn't really have any qualifications to be governess to the royal children. But she's Marie Antoinette's best friend. And therefore Marie Antoinette is adamant that she only wants people she can trust to be around her family.

[Greg Jenner]

And governess is responsible for the education of the children, too. It's not just sort of like nice auntie who just hands them sweets. It is like teaching them Latin and, you know, how to do maths and read, you know, write letters preparing them.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

To be members of the royal family. It did help her popularity, but because of the gap between the marriage and the first child being born, there are a huge number of rumors about who the father of Each of these children is.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, Kate, here's my question, because I feel like as a historical figure that I certainly don't know a great deal about. What I do know about her is that it's, it's very two dimensional and she has been given a really hard rap. Are there any redeeming qualities to Marie Antoinette other than that she's a party girl that is very self involved, suffered, you know, a lot of losses as a, as a mother? Anything else going on for her that we can give her a little bit of cheerleading for?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Okay, we can, we can certainly try. How about her being an important figure in the patronage of arts and culture? Okay, so particularly decorative arts and music. She uses her influence to move public tastes to a more modern, cosmopolitan style of music, though often it backfires because her preferred opera composer, Gluck, was her former music teacher in Austria. And therefore, even when she tries to persuade the French to be more cosmopolitan, she's still accused of being anti French and pro Austrian. She's trying to develop a more cosmopolitan theatrical and musical scene in France. She's trying to loosen the very tight etiquette at court in her own way. Trying to modernize things a little bit. She sets the agenda in the theatre. She certainly sets the agenda when we come to fashion as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, hugely so. And what about politics? You know, Louis is the king, but he's not renowned for being this sort of great thinker, this great man of power. You know, he likes clockwork. That's his hobby. Does Marie sort of quietly start running the show or is she happy?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So initially. Initially, no, though she is an important figure at court and largely because Louis XVI doesn't take a mistress. So the way that the French court had developed in over the 18th century was that the mistress of the king was the one who had the king's ear and could be the one to sort of get favors and advantages from. Because Louis isn't interested in taking a mistress. People expect Marie Antoinette to gain them favors, but she has a very fine line to tread because she can't be seen to be overstepping. Overstepping her mark. Exactly. Her role as consort, her role is to bear children. So she's in a slightly awkward position and accused of meddling because there isn't anyone else to take the flak. When Louis the fifteenth was king, his various mistresses.

[Greg Jenner]

Various, yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Were the ones that got the gossip and the attention of the scandalmongers. And because there isn't anyone to deflect attention, it all falls on Marie Antoinette. So she's effectively queen and mistress because she has the king's ear. So it's all concentrated down onto her. The part that comes with being a queen, the having to receive foreign dignitaries. And that side of the role she's not really particularly keen on. She'd rather be with her friends.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

And that's where all the power is. Yeah, that's where you have the ear of the foreign dignitaries. And if you have the, you know, if you are able to position yourself in a way where you're both sort of benign but also, you know, listening in, that's quite a useful thing to have if you want to have a bit of power.

[Greg Jenner]

We need to talk about Amanda Net and fashion. She's renowned for it. There's a new exhibition coming to the VA Museum soon about her sort of amazing clothes. Jen, do you know how many new dresses she ordered per year from her favorite dressmaker?

[Jen Brister]

Oh, I'm imagining in their hundreds.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it was. It was 300. 300 a year. 300 a year. Brand new dresses.

[Jen Brister]

So that's almost a new dress for every single day.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I mean, some days she's just wearing the same dress twice. What a slob.

[Jen Brister]

Can you imagine wearing a dress more than once?

[Greg Jenner]

Her dressmaker was Rose Bertin.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Can you tell us more about fashion and Marie Antoinette's sort of role within it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So one of the things that lots of people know about Marie Antoinette is her extravagant clothing. She was accused at the time of spending too much money on dresses. Although in her defense, she is supposed to be promoting the superiority of French culture. She represents the nation and is keeping dozens, if not hundreds of people employed as a result of being the face of France in that sense. So there's a. There is a bit of a double bind there in that she's been told she's spending too much. But on the other hand, Even in the 20th century, if a queen were to re wear an outfit, it was commented on by Queen Elizabeth was regularly people would say, oh, she was wearing that dress that she wore last in eight years ago.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

They'd always be at the first time.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Even now, there's still a sense that royal women are not able to wear the same clothes without comment. I don't remember anyone commenting about any kings wearing the same suit.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah, they still don't.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So she is supposed to be representing France and representing the superiority of French culture. Her stylist designs. Rose Bertin designs all her dresses. 300 a year might sound excessive. It's not as bad as Josephine Napoleon's. Josephine. She could top 900 a year. Wow, that's. That's three a day. But again, Mat Antoinette finds herself criticized. You know, devil you devil you do, devil you don't. She's criticized for spending too much on over the top outfits. But then she's also criticized when she tries wearing simpler clothes. So there's a really famous dress that's called the Chemise a la reine, which was made out of white muslin rather than French silk. And it's seen by the standards of the time as a really casual garment. The formal French court dresses, you've got the tight corsets, you've got the giant skirts. This is much, much looser. It's a sort of neoclassical, we're heading towards Jane Austen sort of style.

[Greg Jenner]

It's almost a slip, isn't it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It's almost a slip. It looks like an underdress.

[Jen Brister]

Well, it must have looked completely bananas. When you compare it to what everyone else was wearing, you must have thought, are you. Are you wearing your night?

[Greg Jenner]

It was.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah, exactly. And she was painted wearing it. And that caused a huge Ferrari because that was considered to be an indecent dress for the Queen of France to be wearing for a formal portrait.

[Jen Brister]

There's a lot going on.

[Greg Jenner]

There's a lot going on. There's another rumor, of course. She was given a private sort of palace, petit trianon. And there's a rumor that she goes there to sort of relax and that she role plays as a particular thing. Do you want to guess what that would be? That she was cosplaying as well.

[Jen Brister]

I imagine she'd be cosplaying as something that is very far removed from who she is. So maybe she was cosplaying as a servant.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, it's not bad. Not far off.

[Jen Brister]

A lady in waiting.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Very, very close. Very close. So this petit trianon was given to her by her husband, Louis xvi. And she. She uses it as a space where she can go to be with her friends. So you could only enter if you'd been invited by the queen. Even the king had no right to go unless she invited him there. It's a very highly stylized pastoral setting. So she not only has this little miniature palace, but she has a farm.

[Greg Jenner]

The Amour de la Reine.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The Amour de la Reine. She has a theater built there so that she and her friends can put on plays. And that leads to this rumor that she's pretending to be a shepherdess with.

[Greg Jenner]

Sort of pink sheep.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

With pink sheep. I think, really, that it's that she's acting in pastoral plays where she might have been a lady in waiting or a shepherdess because of the vogue for pastoral plays at the time. And it gets twisted in the rumors because people aren't happy at Versailles. The King and the Queen are public figures. People can go, anyone can turn up at Versailles and go and watch them eat. But this is a very private space and because they don't know what's going on there, people make it up. Right?

[Greg Jenner]

And so they're saying she's cosplaying as little Bo Peep. She's sort of, you know, it's cutesy little pink sheep. She doesn't know what she's doing. She's pretending to be real peasant girl, but of course she's the Queen of France. What she'd playin at.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Limu Gaymoo and.

[Greg Jenner]

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[Jen Brister]

Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth. Customize and save.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

We save.

[Greg Jenner]

That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Savings Ferry underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates, excludes Massachusetts.

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[Greg Jenner]

And meanwhile, another huge scandal breaks out, this one involving a very famous necklace. It's called the diamond necklace Affair. What happens?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

A con artist tries to persuade the former French ambassador to Vienna to buy a necklace to get him back into Marie Antoinette's favour. This is a necklace that Louis XV had ordered for his mistress but never bought. And Marie Antoinette had turned it down. The former French ambassador, Rohan, thought that it was a good way of getting back in the Queen's good books, buys it and then finds that he's been completely duped by the con artist who's taken the jewels and done a runner.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And he's hired a sort of an actress to perform as the Queen. Right. So there's a sort of con in there. It's a. You know, and poor Marie Antoinette's sort of left going, hang on. What? I've never even heard of this guy.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah, the Queen.

[Greg Jenner]

He.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah. So Rohan thought that he was meeting the Queen when he was actually meeting a look alike sex worker. And everyone believed that that was entirely plausible that he might meet the Queen in the gardens of Versailles at night and therefore nobody thought that that was anything out of the ordinary so far. Had her reputation slumped by then?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh dear.

[Jen Brister]

Easily confused.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Jen, do you feel sorry for Rohan, you know, being duped by this actress performing, you know, in the garden at dusk, I suppose in the dark.

[Jen Brister]

Do I feel sorry for him? I do feel sorry for him in as he went in good faith and he thought he was speaking to the Queen. I always feel like whenever anyone is a victim of fraud, I feel sorry for them. Even if it's like, come on dude, what are you talking about?

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly. And Marie Antoinette is the victim of the fraud, biggest of all, because everyone thinks that she orchestrated it and she'd already turned down these jewels twice and she could have had the king buy them for her, no problem.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She felt that they were too expensive and that wasn't an appropriate expense given the state of the economy.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, that is the irony is that she never wanted them. She thought there was an inappropriate amount of money to be spent and she still got completely hung out to dry.

[Greg Jenner]

Story of her life.

[Jen Brister]

So here's where I think maybe she's getting a hard rap. Because it doesn't sound to me that within the world that she lives in, in that sort of aristocratic sphere, that she is working particularly outside of that in terms of luxury, spending a huge amount of money on clothing, it all seems to be fitting in within the parameters of what is expected of a queen. Why does she get such a hard rap from the French people?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I think that the key to the answer to that question is that it's not initially the French people, it's those at court that she's alienating because she doesn't want to be with any of the old guard, she wants to be with young people. And there's a very substantial group who are anti Austrian who think that Austria have somehow tricked France into this alliance and that Austria is getting a better deal out of the alliance than France's.

[Jen Brister]

Even though France's economy is in the toilet and Austria is like the head of the Austro Hungarian Empire, which is absolutely doing very well at that point.

[Greg Jenner]

I imagine doing pretty fine.

[Jen Brister]

They're buzzing.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Certainly not struggling financially in the way that the French.

[Jen Brister]

Right, okay, economy is struggling. So it's really the fact that she's alienated everyone at court. That's what's got her into Trouble.

[Greg Jenner]

And she's still seen as foreign by the French people. Remember, the Austrians were enemies for 200 years. You know, it's like a long standing thing. So she's still foreign, she's not politically astute enough. And she's been made a patsy for this sort of diamond heist. And we start getting much more aggressive attacks on her in the media. And we're gonna now show you something pretty graphic. In fact, Jen, I'm afraid I have to say, we're gonna show you something pornographic now.

[Jen Brister]

Holy moly.

[Greg Jenner]

And we have checked with your agent in advance, we're not gonna force this upon you without some consent. But I'm gonna ask you to turn over your paper and describe for the listeners what you can see.

[Jen Brister]

Okay. Okay, that's interesting. I can see what looks to be a. Okay, this is going to be difficult. It is a phallus, it. And it is kind of almost like an ostrich. But the hair, the neck. Why are you making me do this? The neck is a member. And I don't mean just. I'm not talking about a member of the House of Commons. I'm talking about a man's member with the legs of a horse and the tail of a horse of something. It's kind of like half. It's like a half ostrich, half penis. I can't say half, that's. And a third horse. Is that right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I think that's what. I think it's fair. It's basically an erect penis with legs and a tail and there's a man riding it and Marie Antoinette is stroking. Stroking the member bit.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So it's a play on words. The French for autreuche is ostrich and au triche is Austrian. So that's quite a few.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's a dick pun.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Classy pornography, this.

[Jen Brister]

So the next picture is. Is it Marie Antoinette sitting on a chaise longue or a sofa? And there appears to be a man hitching up her dress. And I can't actually see what he's doing because I don't. My eyesight is so bad. But I imagine he's. Well, it's probably he's having a little fondle. He's having a fondle of something. And there's a chap who's just opened the door. He can see what's going on.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And we have. We have two other images as well. We have a scene of lesbianism and we have a threesome. So these are.

[Jen Brister]

Started with that third picture. Why did we start With a member. That would have really warmed me into this.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. I feel like the. The man on ostrich cock was. Was probably the strong image.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah, it was a bit much. So are the lesbians. Is that Marie Antoinette as well?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes, yes.

[Jen Brister]

And is that her with her best friend, the governess?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Madame de Pollac. Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

I don't even know these two women, but already I can tell these are.

[Greg Jenner]

Kind of publicly printed, right, Kate? They are. They are attack, we call them pornography because that's, you know, in terms of the kind of sexual level. But these are forms of attack against Marie Antoinette that are designed to humiliate her, to scandalize her, to say that she's horny, she's cheating on the king, she can't be trusted, all of those things.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

All of the above. So we've both got prints like the ones that you've just looked at. We've also got. Got pamphlets which are sometimes in diverse or plays. From the early 1770s onwards, she's accused of nighttime sexual encounters in the palace gardens from before she's even queen. They become increasingly pornographic throughout the 1780s. Titles include the Uterine Furies of Marie Antoinette, the Royal Orgy, the Royal Dildo. She's frequently depicted in lesbian relationships with her friends, both Madame de Polignac and another of her friends, the Princess de Lamballe. She's often shown with Louis Brother, younger brother, the Comte d', Artois, or with the Marquis de Lafayette.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Jen Brister]

Who had. Who's that?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The Marquis de Lafayette was.

[Greg Jenner]

Have you seen Hamilton?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

He's in Hamilton.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Brister]

Yes, I've seen Hamilton.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes, you've seen Hamilton. He's a Frenchman. In Hamilton.

[Greg Jenner]

He was the French soldier who went and helped the Americans in the American Revolutionary War. He was a teenager who went over with his money.

[Jen Brister]

Right, okay. Did they have a close friendship or was it. Are they just completely made up?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They're just making everything up at the point.

[Jen Brister]

They don't really.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They have. They. They're picking names out of the air. They're accusing her of infidelity. The king can't possibly have fathered the children. Look at that big gap. She's unnatural. She's got all these desires. She's obsessed with having intercourse wherever she can with whomever she can. The list of people she's supposed to have slept with in these pamphlets and prints is ridiculously long. They're trying to destroy her reputation and with it the reputation of the French monarchy.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, this all happens now to women, doesn't it? I mean, the Misogyny's off the scale, but we can see this kind of, you know, we do this with women in the public eye to this day. And how effective was it? Because, I mean, this sort of stuff works.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it really works.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The King tries to have copies seized and burnt, but it's very hard. You can't control all print outlets and.

[Jen Brister]

You don't need many of them.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

You only need one to survive. We think again that some of this initially is coming from the court to Paris, rather than it being the people of Paris creating this for themselves.

[Greg Jenner]

But she was cheating on the King, we believe. What was the name of the real lover?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Fersen.

[Jen Brister]

That is quite a hot name, actually.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a hot name, isn't it? Immediately in my head I'm just seeing a kind of Swede in a chemise shirt just being like, hello.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I think the jury is still out as to how far they went.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, interesting.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Okay. I think. I think now most people will say she probably did have a physical relationship with him. Modern technology has allowed us to read their encoded letters and his diaries, so. So he censored passages. He scribbled out the passages where she talks about how much she loves him. And modern technology is allowed with using infrared, can see the ink beneath the scribbles out. He really should have destroyed the letters because if they'd have got into the wrong hands, it really would have completely destroyed her reputation. But he couldn't bear to be parted from the letters, so he kept them, but hid the bits where she talks about him as the love of her life.

[Jen Brister]

And what was this chap's name?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

He was a Axel von Fersen.

[Greg Jenner]

He was a Swedish.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

A Swedish officer.

[Greg Jenner]

He was a Swedish count, wasn't he? And he was there at the court on behalf of Sweden.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

On behalf of Sweden.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's an ambassador role. He's the kind of the fancy man. But all these other kind of rumours and scandals are, you know, are false and designed to destroy her. So you've got this kind of real rising anti monarchist. The movement is growing bigger and bigger against the monarchy, but also personally against Marie Antoinette. So, Kate, obviously Marie Antoinette's political career is in the context of what will become the French Revolution, which is caused by many factors. But what do we need to know?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The state was left virtually bankrupt after supporting the American War of Independence. Louis XVI called a meeting of the Estates General to ask for permission to raise emergency funds. But instead they declared themselves A National assembly. And the people of Paris, worried that the King will suppress. This new assembly, stormed the state prison, the Bastille, on 14 July 1789. And that marks the beginning of what we now call the French Revolution. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And we did an episode on the American Revolution and we commented then that the irony that the French supporting American Republicanism, ended the monarchy in France. So it is a sort of bit of a blunder, that one. Yeah. Fascinating time. But the obvious upshot is the French Revolution comes to the palace and what happens to Marie Antoinette and her family and her husband?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

In October 1789, a group of women marched to Versailles demanding bread and the King. At this point, the people of Paris still think that the King can save them. They're starving. The King has been misled by his courtiers over in Versailles. Bring him back to Paris and all will be well. They're relocated to the Tuileries palace in Paris and over the next two years face increasing demands for constitutional reform. So they're trying. The revolutionists are trying to make a constitution, constitutional monarchy, along the lines of the British system. But Lou is reluctant to sacrifice any of the notion of kingship that he feels he's inherited from Louis xiv. So there's a tension between wanting to be popular and not doing anything that would lead the nobility to. To lose any of their privileges. And in the end, on 20 June 1791, the royal family try to flee France.

[Greg Jenner]

And it's been a tragic life, but this is genuinely quite funny, so sorry to make light of it, but like, it really is, because the King and Queen try and do a runner and it does not go well.

[Jen Brister]

Jen, I don't know much about the French Revolution, but I know it doesn't end well for these two. How do they. How do they try to escape, then? They do. They do they go incognito?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Of course they do. Of course they do. They disguise themselves as ordinary people.

[Jen Brister]

They wouldn't know an ordinary person if it hit them in the face.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

No, they would. The first problem is they got lost. So Marie Antoinette got lost trying to leave the palace, because they're trying to. They don't go anywhere in the palace unaccompanied. This is not their normal palace. This is the Tuileries palace where they've been sort of rehoused by the revolutionaries. She gets a bit lost trying to find the. The rendezvous point so they can actually leave. They then stop for meals as if they've got all the time in the world. They think once they're out of Paris, all will be well. So they stop. They've got a ridiculous amount of luggage all with them. They. They get further and further behind.

[Greg Jenner]

Are they in the royal carriage?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They're not in the royal carriage. Doesn't actually say royal's trying to escape on the side, but it might as well, frankly, for the speed at which they're trying.

[Jen Brister]

Stop getting food.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah, they keep stopping for food. Yeah, they're. They're recognized. Unsurprisingly, the king has quite a prominent nose.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, there's a famous thing that, of course, his face is on the coins.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

His face is on the coin.

[Greg Jenner]

He tries to pay for lunch with his face.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And the guy's like.

[Jen Brister]

Like, is that you?

[Greg Jenner]

That's you.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

And he stops to ask for directions at one point. I mean, it's just such a hopeless attempt.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, good sir, ordinary man. Hello. I'm not a king.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Where.

[Greg Jenner]

Where is Austria?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They're brought back to Paris, and the revolutionaries have to pretend that they were kidnapped because it's just taken them ten, two years to write a constitutional monarchy. So they pretend they were kidnapped.

[Greg Jenner]

So embarrassing that they try to run.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Embarrassing.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It doesn't go well from there.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry.

[Jen Brister]

I mean, do they not understand the priority when running away is the running away bit?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Jen Brister]

Everything else is secondary.

[Greg Jenner]

Honestly, these people, although saying that I got lost on the way here to the BBC today, I turned left instead of right, and I didn't know where.

[Jen Brister]

I was, to be honest with you. I can't get here unless someone walks me here, so I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Greg Jenner]

So I am the Marie Antoinette of podcasting. Okay. So, I mean, obviously farce turns to tragedy. You know, we've had our little laugh there, but actually, we know how this ends. The king is executed first. And then there's this in 1792, isn't it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

1793.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry, sorry. Yes. 1793. He's executed first. He's accused of treason. He's found guilty of treason. He is executed. That is an incredibly serious thing, Marion to Annette. They don't. It's not the same day, and it's not the same week. And so they clearly have a bit of a kind of pause. So are they debating what to do with her?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

There is debate about what to do with her. They consider putting her on trial. They consider sending her into exile. They wonder about exchanging her for political prisoners. I think part of the background to the discussion on what to do with her is the years of propaganda that have made much of her sexual appetites. During the revolution we get the obsession with being anti Marie Antoinette crystallising into attacks on the undesirability of women holding power. So we've got a double thing going on here. It's not just that she's queen, it's also that in the run up to the revolution she had started taking on greater political power. So in the end, in October 1793, she's given a two day show trial. In effect, she's accused of orchestrating orgies, planning a massacre of the National Guards, liaising with foreign enemies, Austria obviously.

[Greg Jenner]

So writing to her brother to say help.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Writing to her brother to say help. And the one that is, the only one that really triggers a response from her in the court is that she's accused of, of incest with her son.

[Jen Brister]

Okay. I mean sabit, look, she hasn't behaved brilliantly. She's very, very spoiled and has literally done nothing for the people of France. However, she's not guilty of any of those things. I mean she's guilty of being a product of a class of people that are completely, you know, have no sort of real idea about how the French people live. On the day that she's killed, is that the day that only married and Marie Antoinette's life is taken or is it, do they do these sort of mass kind of killings where it's like going to kill you in the morning, they'll kill you in the afternoon?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes, it's a bit of a conveyor belt by, by this point, 1793, you.

[Jen Brister]

See, this is the thing. All those people that were putting out all of this stuff about Marie Antoinette and you know, this kind of like really indulging on how the aristocracy are, have no morals and have no sort of values, value system kind of backfired on all of them because they all got their heads taken, didn't they? They're all killed.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

More, more ordinary people are killed during the period of the terror than members of the nobility.

[Greg Jenner]

But her best friends are killed, aren't they?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Her best friends are killed in. Well, no. Madame de Polignac escapes France.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, does she?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She escapes. But the Princess de Lamballe is killed and then mutilated and her head put on a, on a spike and they're, they're stop. Not all of the revolutionaries are completely bloodthirsty. There are some that prevent the pike with the Princess de Lamballe's head on it being taken to Marie Antoinette. They wanted her to kiss her friend, but they were actually, the revolution was stopped from doing that. But that was Only after they'd mutilated her body and cut her head off.

[Jen Brister]

He seemed to hate women more than men.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

It doesn't sound like the men, including the king, got as bad a rap as.

[Greg Jenner]

And, no, you're right. I think you are right. And her children, the two surviving children.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The son will become. Became.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Louis xvi on his father's death.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

King is dead. Long live the king. So child became king. He dies shortly afterwards in prison, having been looked after, looked after in inverted commas by the revolutionaries.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Not. Not a well child. He dies. Marie Therese will survive. She will become the Duchess of Angouleme and will help Louis younger brother become Louis xviii. Napoleon famously said of her, she was the only one in the family to wear trousers. She does live a full adult life. She's the only one who does.

[Greg Jenner]

So. Marie Antoinette was executed 16th of October, 1793. Her last words, rather extraordinarily. Do you want to tell us what they were, Kate?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Allegedly, yeah. Do we know how much truth there are in actually her words? Allegedly, she said to the executioner, pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose. After she stepped on his foot.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, that's heartbreaking, isn't it? It's really so heartbreaking.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So she was executed. Do you want to guess how old she was at this point on her death?

[Jen Brister]

What are we, 17? So she's, like, young. What is she, 20? In her 20s?

[Greg Jenner]

No, 30. 37.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, she's 37. Oh, my gosh.

[Greg Jenner]

It's not. I mean, we met. We met her as a, you know, as a kid coming to France at 14.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, yeah. She was only 14 when she came, so, I mean, 37. Still no age, really, is it? Yeah, I mean. I mean. Well, I'm well past it.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

That's why I keep saying.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, 37's young.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

37'S really young.

[Jen Brister]

Whippersnapper.

[Greg Jenner]

No, it's horrible, isn't it? I mean, extraordinary life, I think. You know, as you said at the beginning of the episode, Jen, a lot of things we know about her are not true. But actually, a lot of the things that the French people knew about her were not true. It's, you know, she was the victim of scandal and rumor and gossip.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah. And a very deliberate and successful smear campaign, which really undid all of the nobility to a degree, and the French court as a whole. It's weird, isn't it, how the more you learn about these people, the more you give them, like, a third dimension? I mean, I can see that she's incredibly flawed human being, but also she was a product of what the court created. Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed that. I thought it was fascinating.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, the nuance window. Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Jen and I dress up like shepherdesses for two minutes with our pink sheep, while Professor Kate takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about Marie Antoinette. Oh, no. My stopwatch is ready, Kate. Take it away.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It can be tricky to untangle myth and reality with Marie Antoinette, because what we know largely comes from things others wrote about her rather than from her own words. Opinions, then and now are contradictory. Was she a monster or a martyr? Was she thoughtless and frivolous? Or a scheming villain? Was she depraved or a devoted mother? Did she bring down the French monarchy with her extravagance? Or is she a proto feminist, influencer and role model model? Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us our own biases. So to different people, she will mean quite different things. You all have to make up your own mind, I'm afraid. It is important, though, to distinguish more clearly between the teenage Marie Antoinette and the person she was 20 years later ill prepared to become queen. Aged 19, she did end up taking on more political responsibilities when Louis was paralyzed by depression and indecision. But the task of modernizing the monarchy and solving the economic crisis without impinging on the privileges of the nobility was an impossible one. During the revolution, she tried to save the monarchy, writing a huge number of letters to revolutionaries as well as her brother on the throne in Vienna to try to effect change. She would have seen herself as acting in France's interests, when in fact, it's the point in her life when she's most actively working against them. Just another of the many contradictions that make up her life. Her most tangible legacy is the impact she had on interior design, one of her most enduring passions. Furniture and objets d' art from this period are usually labelled Louis xvi, but it would be much more accurate to call them Marie Antoinette style, as her interest in fabrics and furniture very much marked the late 18th century. Her taste is now appreciated as elegant and refined, a marketable brand for everything from tea to tote bags. Our collective fascination with her riches to rags story shows no sign at all of fading. And given that powerful women in society are still seen with suspicion and that tensions between privacy and celebrity have taken on a new urgency in a social media age, Marie Antoinette's life will Undoubtedly continue to be relevant and generate debate for years to come.

[Greg Jenner]

Two minutes on the dot. Incredible timekeeping. Wow, look at that.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

That's impressive because I've sped up because I was about five seconds over when I practiced it yesterday.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, well done. Kay, thank you so much. I mean, that's fascinating. The idea of the mutability, the fact that. The fact that she was all things to all people. Really interesting, Jen, isn't it?

[Jen Brister]

Yeah. And also what the parallels about celebrity now that's, you know, you can see them clearly, especially with like social media.

[Greg Jenner]

But I got a book about the history celebrity. I described her as a celebrity, as an early celebrity, definitely.

[Jen Brister]

And with the. Because the printing press existed and think people were able to get things out so much easier. It was much easier to augment your celebrity, but it was much easier. Easier to pull you down as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

People will believe what they want to.

[Jen Brister]

Believe and still do.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So what do you know now? Okay, well, it's time now for the so what do you know now? This is our quick fire quiz for Jen to see how much she had learned. I mean, Jen, you've been writing some serious notes.

[Jen Brister]

I've written some really serious notes, but really right at the beginning. Kate, I just want to let you know I forgot to start the notes at the beginning. Listening. And then. I've got no idea what you said then, but look, let's see what I've got.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, we've got 10 questions for you. We've talked about an awful lot and maybe some of the earlier stuff, maybe not so well covered in your notes, but let's see. Question one. What was Marie Antoinette's name when she was born?

[Jen Brister]

Maria Antonia.

[Greg Jenner]

It was. She was Archduchess Maria Antonia. Question 2. Name two ways that Empress Maria Theresa tried to make her teenage daughter more appealing to the French?

[Jen Brister]

Well, she had braces on her teeth and she has her ballet lessons so that she could glide into court.

[Greg Jenner]

Glide like a swan. Question 3. What ominous event happened during Marie Antoinette and Dauphin Louis wedding celebrations?

[Jen Brister]

Well, there was a fireworks display that went horribly wrong at the Temple of hymen and over 130 people were killed in a crush.

[Greg Jenner]

Well done. That's very good knowledge. Question 4. Name one theory about why the couple did not consummate their marriage for seven long years.

[Jen Brister]

Something to do with poor Louis XVI's foreskin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Or something like that. Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

Yes, or something like that. A medical. A medical situation.

[Greg Jenner]

Or they were just doing it wrong.

[Jen Brister]

They were probably doing it wrong as well. They didn't Know what they were doing.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 5. How many new dresses did Marie Antoinette apparently order per year?

[Jen Brister]

300.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. A perfectly sensible number. Question 6. Can you name one of the supposed sexual partners Marie Antoinette was depicted with in pornographic pamphlets?

[Jen Brister]

Her best friend. And her name was Madame de Pognac Polignac.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, very good. Yeah, absolutely. There's also the brother of the King Lafayette and the Princesse de Lamballe. Question 7. According to gossip, how did Marie Antoinette supposedly relax at the Petit Trianon Palace?

[Jen Brister]

She would cosplay as a shepherdess. Shepherding pink sheep.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, very good. And doing plays, we think. Yeah. Question 8. What jewelry based scandal was Marie Antoinette tied to in 1785?

[Jen Brister]

She was tied to the Diamond Necklace affair.

[Greg Jenner]

She was. Someone should make a movie. Question 9. What was the name of her Swedish lover? Do you remember the love of her life?

[Jen Brister]

Axel Ax. Hang on a second, let me check my notes. Axel von Van. I can't read my hand. Von Far. I don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

Farquhar.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah, let's call him that. Axel von Farquhar.

[Greg Jenner]

The word Farquhar.

[Jen Brister]

I literally can't read my handwriting.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I will let you have it because you clearly know the answer. But yeah. Von Tierson, Swedish count. Yeah. Von Thurston. Yeah. This for a perfect 10, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

What were Marion Tournette's supposed last words?

[Jen Brister]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. For stepping on the executioner's foot as he was about to execute. Well done, Joan. Never in doubt. 10 out of 10. Well done.

[Jen Brister]

I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, thank you so much, Professor Kate. Thank you, Jen. And listener. If you want more from Jen, we've got episodes on Emma of Normandy. And of course, we did Hernan Cortez and Melintzin. That was very interesting. And for more controversial French queens, listen to our episode on Catherine de Medici. That one was a fun hoot. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days early, but I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Professor Catherine Asprey from the University of Warwick. Thank you, Kate.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

A pleasure.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thanks again, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, what a treat, Greg. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we engage in some more historical myth busting. But for now, I'm off to go and get my hands on my own delicious swede. Keep it classy, people. I'm talking about the root vegetable. Bye.

[Jen Brister]

That's a good one.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you. You. You're Dead to me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. Hi, guys, this is Rylan and I'm.

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