Marie Antoinette (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me – Marie Antoinette (Radio Edit)

BBC Radio 4 | Aired January 23, 2026
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests:

• Professor Catherine Asprey (Professor of French Studies, University of Warwick)
• Jen Brister (Comedian, Actor, Writer)

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Episode Overview

This episode of “You’re Dead to Me” dives into the life and legacy of Marie Antoinette, one of history’s most mythologized and controversial queens. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Professor Catherine Asprey and comedian Jen Brister to separate fact from fiction: from her childhood as an Austrian archduchess, through her tumultuous marriage and reign as Queen of France, to her tragic downfall during the French Revolution. With humor and sharp historical insight, the episode explores how Marie Antoinette became a scapegoat for royal excess and how much of her legacy is the product of rumor and misogynistic smear campaigns.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins: The Austrian Princess (04:11–06:46)

• Birth & Heritage:
  • Born Maria Antonia on November 2, 1755, in Vienna—15th of 16 children to Empress Maria Theresa of Austria.
    • “Her mother, Maria Theresa, was a political powerhouse and played a huge role in managing military and diplomatic affairs.” – Professor Catherine Asprey [04:11]
  • All the girls in the family had “Maria” as a first name (family tradition), but Antonia was often called “Antoinette,” the French diminutive.
• Political Marriage:
  • Betrothed as a child to Louis, the grandson of King Louis XV of France, to secure the new Austro-French alliance.
  • “Little Louis’ father has died and he becomes heir to the throne... Maria Theresa decides this is a great way of reinforcing the new alliance.” – Prof. Asprey [06:08–06:46]

2. Marriage & Court Life: Awkward Beginnings (07:00–10:49)

• Youthful Marriage:
  • Sent to France at 14; married at Versailles at age 14 (Antoinette) and 15 (Louis).
• Awkward Wedding Night:
  • The “going to bed ceremony” at Versailles is described, involving public observation for bedding together.
    • “They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shared the same bed.” – Prof. Asprey [08:38]
• Delayed Consummation:
  • Their marriage was not consummated for seven years, fueling court gossip and speculation.
    • “Louis did not rise to the occasion. The marriage was unconsummated for seven years.” – Prof. Asprey [08:58]
  • Speculation about personal, psychological, and potential medical reasons for the delay.

3. Becoming Queen & Struggling with Court Expectations (09:44–11:55)

• Accession to the Throne:
  • Louis XVI becomes king in 1774; Marie Antoinette becomes Queen of France at just 19.
• Cultural Gap & Boredom:
  • Not interested in traditional court etiquette; prefers elaborate balls, gambling, incognito outings in Paris, and surrounding herself with young courtiers.
    • “She's not interested in being polite to the older members of court. She hates the really strict etiquette of court.” – Prof. Asprey [10:02]

4. Myth-making and Public Perception (11:21–16:57)

• The Image Problem:
  • Marie Antoinette’s lifestyle, foreignness, and delayed motherhood make her unpopular—particularly among the French court and growing anti-Austrian factions.
• Let Them Eat Cake?
  • The famous line is a myth; Greg Jenner debunks it instantly [03:15].
• Motherhood Amidst Rumor:
  • Despite finally producing heirs, persistent rumors circulated about the paternity of her children due to the delayed consummation.
• Cultural Contributions:
  • Significant influence as a patron of the arts, theatre, and fashion; redefined French taste and style.
    • “She uses her influence to move public tastes to a more modern, cosmopolitan style of music... She certainly sets the agenda when we come to fashion.” – Prof. Asprey [13:07]

5. Fashion, Scandal & Stretching the Truth (14:17–17:05)

• Fashion Icon:
  • Ordered up to 300 dresses a year, fueling her reputation for extravagance.
    • “It was 300... 300 a year. Brand new dresses.” – Greg Jenner [14:32]
  • Her adoption of the “chemise à la reine”—a simple muslin dress—causes scandal for being too casual and not made of French silk.
  • Damned if she did, damned if she didn’t: criticized for both extravagance and simplicity.
• The Diamond Necklace Affair:
  • Involved in a notorious scandal due to an opportunistic con artist and a gullible noble; Marie Antoinette was innocent but blamed.
    • “The Queen... never even heard of this guy.” – Greg Jenner [16:40]
    • “The irony is that she never wanted [the necklace]... and she still got completely hung out to dry.” – Jen Brister [16:57]

6. Smear Campaigns, Sexualized Scandal, and Misogyny (17:32–19:31)

• Target of Propaganda:
  • Faced a barrage of pamphlets, cartoons, and rumors—accusing her of sexual depravity, foreign influence, political intrigue, lesbian affairs, and manipulation.
    • “From the early 1770s onwards, she's accused of nighttime sexual encounters in the palace gardens... They become increasingly pornographic.” – Prof. Asprey [18:12]
  • Media misogyny and xenophobia turned her into a symbol of all that was rotten with monarchy.
• Real Relationships:
  • A likely affair: “The love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Fersen... I think now most people will say she probably did have a physical relationship with him.” – Prof. Asprey [19:08]

7. Revolution and Tragic End (20:02–24:09)

• Prelude to the Fall:
  • State bankruptcy post-American War of Independence; failed economic reforms.
  • Revolutionary activity intensifies: storming of the Bastille (1789), the march on Versailles, royal family taken back to Paris.
• Failing Strategies:
  • Attempts to escape fail (Flight to Varennes, 1791); monarchy collapses.
  • Louis XVI executed January 1793; Marie Antoinette executed October 16, 1793 after a rushed, prejudicial trial.
    • “In the end, in October 1793, she's given a two day show trial. In effect, she's accused of planning a massacre... liaising with foreign enemies...” – Prof. Asprey [21:51]
• Family Tragedy:
  • Of her children, only Marie-Thérèse survived the Revolution; her son (Louis-Charles) died in prison.
    • “Her son... dies. Marie Therese will survive... help Louis younger brother become Louis XVIII. Napoleon famously said of her, she was the only one in the family to wear trousers.” – Prof. Asprey [23:08]
• Final Words:
  • Allegedly apologizing to her executioner after stepping on his foot: “Pardon me, sir. I did not do it on purpose.” – Prof. Asprey [23:45]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------|--------------| | Introduction, guests and premise | 01:03–03:15 | | Early life, naming traditions | 04:11–06:46 | | Marriage politics and customs | 06:46–10:49 | | Early reign as Queen, court issues | 10:49–13:31 | | Motherhood and role at court | 11:55–13:31 | | Fashion, celebrity, “Let Them Eat Cake” | 13:31–16:57 | | Diamond Necklace Affair | 15:54–16:57 | | Propaganda, misogyny, and Axel von Fersen | 17:32–19:37 | | French Revolution to execution | 20:02–24:09 | | Execution, children’s fates, legacy | 23:00–24:46 | | “Nuance Window” – Debunking Myths | 25:01–26:59 |

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Marrying Young:
  • “She is betrothed as a child. Maria Theresa’s plan is for her to marry the French king..., and at that point... this is going to be a great way of reinforcing this new alliance between age old enemies, Austria and France.” – Prof. Asprey [06:08]
• The Wedding Night Ordeal:
  • “They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shared the same bed.” – Prof. Asprey [08:38]
• Excessive Outfits:
  • “It was 300... 300 a year. Brand new dresses.” – Greg Jenner [14:32]
• Reputation Sabotaged:
  • “They’re trying to destroy her reputation and with it the reputation of the French monarchy.” – Prof. Asprey [18:12]
• Sexual Rumors & Public Image:
  • “This all happens now, yeah, to women, doesn’t it? I mean, the misogyny is off the scale.” – Jen Brister [18:44]
• Affair with von Fersen:
  • “The love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Fersen.” – Prof. Asprey [19:08]
• On Propaganda:
  • “It is important to distinguish between the teenage Marie Antoinette and the person she was 20 years later... Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us our own biases.” – Prof. Asprey, Nuance Window [25:01]
• Final Words:
  • “Pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose.” – attributed to Marie Antoinette [23:45]
• Reflecting on History:
  • “It’s weird, isn’t it, how the more you learn about these people, the more you give them, like, a third dimension.” – Jen Brister [24:26]

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“Nuance Window” – Marie Antoinette in Perspective

[25:01–26:59]
Professor Catherine Asprey delivers a concise reflection on why Marie Antoinette’s image has remained so divisive and mutable—suggesting many of the stories we know about her are filtered through historical rumor, myth, and the biases of her enemies. She underlines that the real Marie Antoinette’s legacy is most visible in art, design, and the evolution of celebrity culture, and her life continues to resonate today due to ongoing debates about women’s power and public image.

“Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us our own biases. So to different people, she will mean quite different things... Our collective fascination with her riches to rags story shows no sign at all of fading, given that powerful women in society are still seen with suspicion and that tensions between privacy and celebrity have taken on a new urgency in the social media age.” – Prof. Asprey [25:01]

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Tone & Style

True to the show’s remit, the episode is warm, irreverent, and sharply insightful. Greg’s easy banter and Jen’s witty asides make room for lively, accessible history, while Professor Asprey brings academic rigor and nuance. The speakers do not avoid the dark ironies of Marie Antoinette’s life, but also highlight her human complexity—and the relentless pressures put on women in power.

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Summary for New Listeners

For those unfamiliar with Marie Antoinette or her place in history, this episode unpacks her journey from Austrian princess to French queen and scapegoat. Through examination of myths, media manipulation, and gendered criticism, listeners will better understand her reputation, why she became a convenient villain, and why her story remains relevant in discussions of celebrity, power, and misogyny. The show debunks simplistic cliches (“let them eat cake”), exposes the role of scandal in politics, and offers a balanced, human portrayal of both the queen and the turbulent world she inhabited.

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If you enjoyed this episode, You’re Dead to Me also covers other controversial figures and forgotten queens—see their earlier episodes for more historical myth-busting.

Transcript

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[Tara Davis Woodhull]

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[Greg Jenner]

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And you learn more at pennymac.com pennymac loan services llc/housing lender nmls id 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending act, conditions and restrictions may apply. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we into our hoop skirts and styling our hair in the French fashion as we travel back to 18th century France to learn about Queen Marie Antoinette. And to help us separate myth from reality, we have two very special courtiers in History Corner. She's professor of French Studies at the University of Warwick. Her research focuses on French culture in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods, especially plays, prints and novels. She's the author of Narrative Responses to the Trauma of the French Revolution is Professor Catherine Asprey. Welcome Kate.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Thank you very much for inviting me.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV on Live the Apollo, Mop the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Or maybe you heard her podcast WTB or her other podcast Memory Lane. And you will definitely know her from our episodes on Hernan Cortez and Melinsin. And on Emma of Normandy, it's Jen Brester. Welcome back, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Thank you, Greg. I'm delighted to Be back.

[Greg Jenner]

We have previously done together English history, Spanish history, Mexican history. Obvious question. Do you parlez vous francaise?

[Jen Brister]

Un petit peut? Oh, let's like, don't. I don't want to get into it because I don't embarrass Kate or yourself, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you.

[Jen Brister]

But I am very excited about this particular episode, not least because it is French history. What a joy. But because I actually know who this person is. And this is the first time I've been invited onto the show with a historical figure whose name I recognize. So I'm delighted.

[Greg Jenner]

Marie Antoinette. You know the name. So do you know some of the story?

[Jen Brister]

Look, I know the story that was told when I was a child. And I think most of the myths around Marie Antoinette are, as we learned later as an adult, are complete lies. So I'm gonna say almost everything I know about this historical figure is not true. So I'm really intrigued to hear the truth.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is the so what do you know? Where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I bet you all shouted, let them eat cake. She didn't say it. Come on. You may have seen Sofia Coppola's fabulous 2006 film Marie Antoinette with the punk rock soundtrack starring Kirsten Dunst, or the most recent Marie Antoinette TV drama series on the BBC. Of course, you might also remember the shocking Grammy Award winning performance by heavy metal titans Gogirard at the 2024 Paris Olympic opening ceremony, accompanied by numerous decapitated Marie Antoinettes in blood red dresses. Marie Antoinette is a modern pop cult icon, but what was her life really like? How did an Austrian princess become France's doomed queen? And how many dresses did she really own? Let's find out. All right, Professor Kate, let's start at the beginning. When and where was Marie Antoinette born? And was that her name?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria was born on 2 November 1755, the 15th child of 16 of the Empress Maria Theresa, ruler of the Habsburg dynasty from 1740 and father emperor Francis I. Her mother, Maria Theresa, was a political powerhouse and played a huge role in managing military and diplomatic affairs. In 1756, she made a momentous alliance with Austria's age old enemy France, reversing 200 years of hostility at court in Vienna. They spoke German, French and Italian and Maria Antonia grew up sliding between being called Antonia and Antoine. All the girls in the family had Maria as a first name, so they tended to avoid that.

[Greg Jenner]

They were all called Maria.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They Were all called Maria. It was a family tradition. The girls all had Maria as a first name.

[Greg Jenner]

How do you solve a problem like Maria?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

You use the second name. Because she was also one of the youngest in the family. She was also referred to as Antoinette, which is the French diminutive, meaning little Antoine. And in the end, that's the name that stuck.

[Jen Brister]

It's cute. Yeah, they do that in Spain as well. They have a little diminutive name.

[Greg Jenner]

They're all called Maria. I feel like that's 16 kids. Come on.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Well, the boys weren't called Maria.

[Greg Jenner]

Roberts.

[Jen Brister]

What were they called?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Franz, Leopold, Joseph. Good, good, good, solid, good, solid man.

[Greg Jenner]

Names for going to war.

[Jen Brister]

And so she grew up in Vienna.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She grew up in Vienna.

[Jen Brister]

Right. So there's fact numero uno that I did not know. I thought Marie Antoinette was French, so that's quite embarrassing.

[Greg Jenner]

So we have a princess, we have an archduchess. You can presumably guess what her future's gonna be, gen, in terms of what mother is planning for her.

[Jen Brister]

Yes, I imagine she's planning a very prestigious marriage into a very prestigious court in France.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, bang on. I mean, that's the plan, right?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Absolutely. Got it in one.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So we're minutes into the episode already. Wedding bells. We're talking about little girl here.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yes, we are.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, wait a second, hang on, rewind. I was talking about in the future. So she had been betrothed as a child.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She is betrothed as a child. Maria Theresa's plan is for her to marry the French king, Louis XV's grandson, who's also called Louis. We've got all the girls, all the girls in Austria called Maria and all the boys in France called Louis. Little Louis father has died and he becomes heir to the throne in France is known as the dauphin. And at that point, Maria Theresa decides that this is going to be a great way of reinforcing this new alliance between the age old enemies, Austria and France. Louis is only a year older than Antoinette, but that's considered good because they're quite close in age. But he's described as a lanky, silent, nervous lad.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, so aren't all teenage. I was gonna say lanky.

[Greg Jenner]

Quite a standard boy. That isn't a teenage boy.

[Jen Brister]

Is it quite usual then to get married, you know, before they're 16? Or is it. Oh, it is.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It is normal, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

For average people, no, but for princes, for dynasties, but for royalty. Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

So she has got to that point now at the age of 13. She's gonna now move away from her Home in the Vienna court to go to Paris to live with her new husband, who is 14.

[Greg Jenner]

She's sent off to France aged 14. So cue the problematic marriage Claxton, which we unfortunately have to honk a lot on this show. And so when she arrives in France, what are you imagining? Are you sort of. Are you thinking Harry and Meghan? Is it Kate and Will? You know what kind of. What's the vibe? Is it fun? Are people happy?

[Jen Brister]

You know, those are the only two options you have.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Those are the only two options.

[Greg Jenner]

That's all you got?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Okay, I'm going to sidestep comparing the wedding to either. She arrives in May 1770 and meets King Louis XV at Compiegne. She's then introduced to young Louis, her future husband and the extended family. And two days later, 16 May, the pair were married at Versailles and she became dauphiness Dauphine of France.

[Greg Jenner]

That's not the end of it because, Jen, on the wedding night, things get awkward. Do you know why? Why would it be awkward for the new married couple?

[Jen Brister]

Well, they don't know what they're doing.

[Greg Jenner]

Not just that, they don't know what they're doing with an audience.

[Jen Brister]

Why does it. Oh, they have to make sure that they're. That. That she's.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

There's a going to bed ceremony.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, come on. It's hard. I mean, we've all remember our first time. Can you imagine with an audience, anything worse?

[Greg Jenner]

Kate, talk us through it.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the archbishop blesses the bed.

[Greg Jenner]

That's definitely gonna get you in the mood.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

That's really gonna get you in the mood. Louis the 15th then hands the dauphin his nightshirt. So the grandfather is there offering advice. They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shared the same bed.

[Greg Jenner]

The king's advice, was it useful? Kate, did Louis rise to the occasion, so to speak?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Louis did not rise to the occasion. The marriage was unconsummated for seven years.

[Jen Brister]

Aha. Caresse, is he gay or traumatized? He could be traumatised, right? There's a lot of 60s.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

There's a lot of discussion over why was the marriage not consummated.

[Jen Brister]

Seven years a long time.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

We don't know if it was personal hesitation, whether it was health related.

[Greg Jenner]

Maybe some things are just best lost to history. We don't know why seven years. We'll just sort of write that off. Okay, so with the unconsummated marriage already proving an issue in 1774, so this was still four years into their not sleeping together problem. Suddenly Louis was the king of France because Louis XV died, making Marie Antoinette a. The queen of France. So she was 19. Just about.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Just about 19.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Just turned 19. So the age at which we would normally maybe go to university or maybe get your first job. Her first job, Queen?

[Jen Brister]

Yeah. That's a lot.

[Greg Jenner]

What's the first thing she does, Kate, in terms of court politics, how does it go?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Not perhaps as well as it might have done.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I mean, they're both still very young, they're very inexperienced. She has nothing to do because the marriage isn't consummated. She's not going to get pregnant, and therefore her sole reason for being at court can't exist. So she fills her time with gambling, with balls, with going incognito into Paris to balls, to the theater. She gathers around her a group of young people nearer her own age. She's not interested in being polite to the older members of court. She hates the really strict etiquette of court. So she does all she can to sort of sidestep that. She'd rather have a little bit of privacy. She doesn't want to spend all time in the public eye. And really, she carries on living the life she'd lived whilst she was the wife of the heir to France, rather than changing her behavior once she's become queen.

[Greg Jenner]

So, Jen, how do you think she's doing on ratemymonarch.com do you think the people of France are pleased about their new queen?

[Jen Brister]

I'm guessing the people of France, and they are very vocal as a people, are not at all happy with their new queen, who appears to be just having a big old jolly and ignoring the needs and wants of the people, particularly the working people of Paris and of France, rather. So I would imagine there's a lot of resentment and anger building the problems.

[Greg Jenner]

That will later arise in the French Revolution. They're already there, right?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

They are already there, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Joan, how would you turn things around if you were Marie Antoinette? What's your policy to get people to love you?

[Jen Brister]

Well, I would think I would do something for the people and make a really big gesture that was like, you know, oh, guys, I've got this great big party and I'm going to put it on for you because I love you and I really want you to know that I care about you.

[Greg Jenner]

So you'd say, let them eat cake.

[Jen Brister]

I would say, guys, I'm really sorry that you're in poverty, but I'm just. Have you had jelly and ice cream before?

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. She does the most important thing, of course, she produces an heir. That is what matters.

[Jen Brister]

That's really what makes a difference.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

She does. Finally, she has a daughter, Marie Therese Charlotte, born in 1778. Another Marie, another Marie. She has Louis Joseph in 1781, that he will die age seven. Just.

[Greg Jenner]

So he was the dauphin.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

He was the dauphin, yeah. He dies just before the start of the French Revolution in 1789. Louis Charles, who is born in 1785, and Sophie Helene Beatrice in 1786, who dies aged one. So she has four children, two of whom will die in her lifetime. It did help her popularity, but because of the gap between the marriage and the first child being born, there are a huge number of rumors about who the father of each of these children is.

[Jen Brister]

Okay, Kate, here's my question, because as a historical figure that I certainly don't know a great deal about. What I do know about her is that it's. It's very two dimensional and she has been given a really hard rap. Are there any redeeming qualities to Marie Antoinette other than that she's a party girl that is very self involved, suffered a lot of losses as a mother. Anything else going on for her that we can give her a little bit of cheerleading for?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Okay, we can. We can certainly try. How about her being an important figure in the patronage of arts and culture?

[Jen Brister]

Okay.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So particularly decorative arts and music. She uses her influence to move public tastes to a more modern, cosmopolitan style of music. She sets the agenda in the theatre. She certainly sets the agenda when we come to fashion as.

[Greg Jenner]

And what about politics?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the way that the French court had developed and over the 18th century was that the mistress of the king was the one who had the king's ear and could be the one to sort of get favors and advantages from. Because Louis isn't interested in taking a mistress. People expect Marie Antoinette to gain them favors, but she has a very fine line to tread because she can't be seen to be overstepping. Overstepping her mark. Exactly. Her role as consort. Her role is to bear children. So she's in a slightly awkward position and accused of meddling because there isn't anyone else to take the flak. So she's effectively queen and mistress because she has the king's ear.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So it's all concentrated down onto her.

[Greg Jenner]

We need to talk about Marinette and fashion. She's renowned for it. There's a new exhibition coming to the VA Museum soon about her sort of amazing clothes. Jen, do you know how many new dresses she Ordered per year from her favorite dressmaker.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, I'm imagining in their hundreds.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it was. It was 300. 300 a year. 300 a year. Brand new dresses.

[Jen Brister]

So that's a. That's almost a new dress for every single day.

[Rylan]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Can you tell us more about fashion and Marie Antoinette's sort of role within it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

One of the things that lots of people know about Marie Antoinette is her extravagant clothing. She was accused at the time of spending too much money on dresses. Although in her defence, she is supposed to be promoting the superiority of French culture. She represents the nation and is keeping dozens, if not hundreds of people employed as a result of being the face of France in that sense. But again, Mar. Antoinette finds herself criticized. You know, devil you do, devil you don't. She's criticised for spending too much on over the top outfits, but then she's also criticized when she tries wearing simpler clothes. So there's a really famous dress that's called the chemise a la reine, which was made out of white muslin rather than French silk. And it's seen by the standards of the time as a really casual garment. The formal French court dresses, you've got the tight corsets, you've got the giant skirts. This is much, much looser. It's a sort of neoclassical. We're heading towards Jane Austen sort of style.

[Greg Jenner]

It's almost a slip, isn't it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It's almost a slip. It looks like an underdress.

[Jen Brister]

Well, it must have looked completely bananas. When you compare it to what everyone else was wearing, they must have thought, are you wearing your night dress?

[Greg Jenner]

Was.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

And meanwhile, another huge scandal breaks out, this one involving a very famous necklace. It's called the Diamond Necklace Affair. What happens?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

A con artist tries to persuade the former French ambassador to Vienna to buy a necklace to get him back into Marie Antoinette's favour. This is a necklace that Louis XV had ordered for his mistress but never bought. And Marie Antoinette had turned it down. The former French ambassador, Rohan, thought that it was a good way of getting back in the Queen's good books, buys it and then finds that he's been completely duped by the con artist who's taken the jewels and done a runner.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And he's hired a sort of an actress to perform as the Queen. Right. So there's a sort of con in there. It's a. You know, and poor Marie Antoinette's sort of left going, hang on, what? I've never even heard of this guy.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah, the Queen. Rohan thought that he was meeting The Queen when he was actually meeting a look alike sex worker.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

And everyone believed that that was entirely plausible that he might meet the Queen in the gardens of Versailles at night and therefore nobody thought that that was ev. Anything out of the ordinary so far. Had her reputation slumped by then?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh dear.

[Jen Brister]

That is. The irony is that she never wanted them. She thought there were inappropriate amount of money to be spent and she still got completely hung out to dry.

[Greg Jenner]

Story of her life.

[Jen Brister]

So here's where I think maybe she's getting a hard rap. Because it doesn't sound to me that within the world that she lives in, in that sort of aristocratic sphere, that she is working particularly outside of that, in terms of luxury, spending a huge amount of money on clothing, it all seems to be fitting in within the parameters of what is expected of a, of a queen. Why does she get such a hard rap from the French people?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I think that the key to the, to the answer to that question is that it's not initially the French people, it's those at court that she's alienating because she doesn't want to be with any of the old guard, she wants to be with young people and there's a very substantial group who are anti Austrian.

[Greg Jenner]

So she's still foreign, she's, you know, she's not politically astute enough and she's been made a patsy for this sort of diamond heist and we start getting much more aggressive attacks on her in the media. These are forms of attack against Marie Antoinette that are designed to humiliate her, to scandalize her. She's cheating on the King, she can't be trusted.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

All of those things, all of the above. From the early 1770s onwards, she's accused of nighttime sexual encounters in the palace gardens from before she's even queen. They become increasingly pornographic. Throughout the 1780s. She's frequently depicted in lesbian relationships with her friends. She's often shown with Louis brother, younger brother, the Comte d'. Artois. They're trying to destroy her reputation and with it the reputation of the French monarchy.

[Jen Brister]

This all happens now, yeah, to women, doesn't it? I mean, the misogyny is off the scale. And how effective was it? Because, I mean, I've. This sort of stuff works.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it really works.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The King tries to have copies seized and burnt, but it's very hard. You can't control all print outlets and.

[Jen Brister]

You don't need many of them, you.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Only need one to survive.

[Greg Jenner]

But she was cheating on the King, we believe. What was the name of the real lover?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

So the Love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Fersen.

[Jen Brister]

That is quite a hot name, actually.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a hot name, isn't it? Immediately in my head, I'm just seeing a kind of Swede in a kind of chemise shirt, just being like, hello.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I think the jury is still out as to how far they went.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, interesting.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

I think now most people will say she probably did have a physical relationship with him.

[Greg Jenner]

He's the kind of the fancy man, but all these other kind of rumours and scandals are, you know, are false and designed to destroy her. So you've got this kind of real rising anti monarchist. The movement is growing bigger and bigger against the monarchy, but also personally against Marie Antoinette. So, Kate, obviously Marie Antoinette's political career is in the context of what will become the French Revolution, which is caused by many factors. But what do we need to know?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The state was left virtually bankrupt after supporting the American War of Independence. Louis XVI called a meeting of the Estates General to ask for permission to raise emergency funds. But instead they declared themselves a National Assembly. And the people of Paris, worried that the King will suppress. This new assembly, stormed the state prison, the Bastille, on 14 July 1789. And that marks the beginning of what we now call the French Revolution.

[Greg Jenner]

But the obvious upshot is the French Revolution comes to the palace and what happens to Marionette and her family and her husband?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

In October 1789, a group of women marched to Versailles demanding bread and the King. At this point, the people of Paris still think that the King can save them. They're starving. The King has been misled by his courtiers over in Versailles. Bring him back to Paris and all will be well. They're relocated to the Tuileries palace in Paris and over the next two years face increasing demands for constitutional reform. So they're trying, the revolutionists are trying to make a constitutional monarchy along the lines of the British system. But Louis is reluctant to sacrifice any of the notion of kingship that he feels he's inherited from Louis XIV. And in the end, on 20 June 1791, the royal family tried to flee France.

[Greg Jenner]

We know how this ends. The King is executed first. And then there's this in 1792, isn't it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

1793.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry, sorry, yes. 1793, he's executed first. He's accused of treason. He's found guilty of treason. He is executed. That is an incredibly serious thing. Marion to Annette. They don't. It's not the same day and it's not the Same week. And so they clearly have a bit of a kind of pause. So are they debating what to do with her?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

There is debate about what to do with her. They consider putting her on trial, they consider sending her into exile. They wonder about exchanging her for political prisoners. I think part of the background to the discussion on what to do with her is the years of propaganda that have made much of her sexual appetites. So in the end, in October 1793, she's given a two day show trial. In effect, she's accused of planning a massacre of the National Guards, liaising with foreign enemies, Austria, obviously.

[Greg Jenner]

So writing to her brother to say help.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Writing to her brother to say, hell.

[Jen Brister]

She hasn't behaved brilliantly, she's very spoiled and has literally done nothing for the people of France. However, she's not guilty of any of those things. All those people that were putting out all of this stuff about Marie Antoinette and, you know, this kind of like really indulging on how the aristocracy are. Have no morals and have no sort of values and value system kind of backfired on all of them because they all got their heads taken, didn't they? They were all killed.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

More. More ordinary people are killed during the period of the terror than members of the nobility.

[Greg Jenner]

And her children, the two surviving children.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

The son will become. Became.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Louis XVI on his father's death.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

King is dead. Long live the king. So child became king. He dies shortly afterwards in prison, having been looked after in inverted commas by the revolutionaries. Not a well child. He dies. Marie Therese will survive. She will become the Duchess of Angouleme and will help Louis younger brother become Louis xviii. Napoleon famously said of her, she was the only one in the family to wear trousers.

[Greg Jenner]

So Marie Antoinette was executed 16th of October 1793. Her last words, rather extraordinarily. Do you want to tell us what they were, Kate?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Allegedly, yeah. Do we know how much truth there are in actually her words? Allegedly, she said to the executioner, pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose. After she stepped on his foot.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, that's heartbreaking, isn't it? It's really so heartbreaking.

[Rylan]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So she was executed. Do you want to guess how old she was at this point on her death?

[Jen Brister]

What are we, 17? I don't. So she's like young. What is she, in her 20s?

[Greg Jenner]

No, 37.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, she's 37. Oh, my gosh.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It's extraordinary life, I think. You know, as you said at the beginning of the episode, Jen, a lot of the things we know about her are not true. But actually, a lot of the things that the French people knew about her were not true. It's, you know, she was the victim of scandal and rumor and gossip.

[Jen Brister]

Yeah. And a very deliberate and successful smear campaign, which really undid all of the nobility to a degree, and the French court as a whole. It's weird, isn't it, how the more you learn about these people, the more you give them, like, a third dimension. I mean, I can see that she's an incredibly flawed human being, but also she was a product of what the court created.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

Thank you. I really enjoyed that. I thought it was fascinating.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance window. It's time now for the Nuance window. My stopwatch is ready, Kate. Take it away.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

It can be tricky to untangle myth and reality with Marie Antoinette, because what we know largely comes from things others wrote about her rather than from her own words. Opinions, then and now, are contradictory. Was she a monster or a martyr? Was she thoughtless and frivolous or a scheming villain? Was she depraved or a devoted mother? Did she bring down the French monarchy with her extravagance? Or is she a proto feminist influencer and role model? Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us our own biases. So to different people, she will mean quite different things. It is important, though, to distinguish more clearly between the teenage Marie Antoinette and the person she was, 20 years later ill prepared to become queen. Age 19. She did end up taking on more political responsibilities when Louis was paralysed by depression and indecision. But the task of modernising the monarchy and solving the economic crisis without impinging on the privileges of the nobility was an impossible one. During the Revolution, she tried to save the monarchy, writing a huge number of letters to revolutionaries as well as her brother on the throne in Vienna to try to effect change. She would have seen herself as acting in France's interests, when in fact, it's the point in her life when she is most actively working against them. Just another of the many contradictions that make up her life. Her most tangible legacy is the impact she had on interior design, one of her most enduring passions. Furniture and objets d' art from this period are usually labelled Louis xvi, but it would be much more accurate to call them Marie Antoinette style, as her interest in fabrics and furniture very much marked the late 18th century. Her taste is now appreciated as elegant and refined, a marketable brand for everything from tea to tote bags. Our collective fascination with her riches to Rags story shows no sign at all of fading given that powerful women in society are still seen with suspicion and that tensions between privacy and celebrity have taken on a new urgency in the social media age, Marie Antoinette's life will undoubtedly continue to be relevant and generate debate for years to come.

[Greg Jenner]

Two minutes on the dot. Incredible timekeeping. Wow, look at that.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

That's impressive because I've sped up because I was about five seconds over when I practiced it yesterday.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, well done, Kay. Thank you so much. I mean, that's, that's fascinating. The idea of the mutability, the fact that she was all things to all people. Really interesting, Jen, isn't it?

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

Yeah.

[Jen Brister]

And also what the parallels about celebrity now that's, you know, you can see them clearly, especially with like social media because the printing press existed and think people were able to get things out so much easier. It was much easier to augment your celebr, but it was much easier to pull you down as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

People will believe what they want to.

[Jen Brister]

Believe and still do.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Professor Kate. Thank you, Jen. And Listener. If you want more from Jen, we've got episodes on Emma of Normandy and of course we did Hernan Cortez and Melinson. That was very interesting. And for more controversial French queens, listen to our episode on Catherine de Medici. That one was a fun hoot. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to me on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days early, but I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Professor Catherine Asprey from the University of Warwick. Thank you, Kate.

[Professor Catherine Asprey]

A pleasure.

[Greg Jenner]

And a Comedy Corner we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thanks again, Jen.

[Jen Brister]

Oh, what a treat, Greg. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we engage in some more historical myth busting. But for now I'm off to go and get my hands on my own delicious Swede. Keep it classy, people. I'm talking about the root vegetable. Bye.

[Jen Brister]

That's a good one.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you. You're dead to me is the BBC Studios. Bruno for BBC Radio 4.

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