Medieval Irish Folklore (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me – Medieval Irish Folklore (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You’re Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Gillian Kenny (historian), Sean Burke (comedian)
Recorded Live: Hay Literary Festival, Wales
Air Date: April 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the magical and mysterious world of medieval Irish folklore. Host Greg Jenner is joined by returning historian Dr. Gillian Kenny and comedian Sean Burke. Together, the trio weaves through Irish myth, cultural shifts, supernatural beliefs, and comic asides, revealing how magic, fairy tales, and legendary curses shaped Ireland’s medieval past and persist, in surprisingly modern ways, today. As ever, the tone is sharp, witty, and welcoming, mixing serious historical insight with laughs and playful banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: What Is Medieval Ireland?

• Ireland’s Timeline & Definition
  • Dr. Kenny explains the medieval Irish period lasted longer than in England/Britain, with Gaelic Ireland enduring into the 16th/17th centuries.
  • Conversion to Christianity in the 5th century is pivotal – most of our knowledge comes after monks began writing things down ([05:00–05:55]).
• Cultural Landscape
  • Two cultures: Gaelic Irish and Anglo-Irish; focus here is on Gaelic traditions ([06:34]).
  • Hierarchical, patriarchal, and rural – “a tale of two cultures.”
  • Intellectual classes (bards, poets, historians) held high status – “So my ancestors knew what was what” (Dr. Gillian Kenny, [07:39]).

2. The Influences: From Druids to Vikings (and the Welsh!)

• Christianity layered a veneer over older, nature-focused rituals ([05:55]).
• Viking presence, especially in Dublin ("So I'm technically Viking," Sean Burke, [08:30]).
• English and Welsh also played roles in shifting Irish power structures ([08:38–10:20]).

3. The Realm of Magic: Definition & Practice

• Defining Magic
  • Sean: “Things that cannot be explained by, you know, logic and science. Mystical stuff.” ([10:24])
  • Dr. Kenny: Irish magic is about “influencing material reaction through words” – words have the power to heal, harm, and protect ([10:39]).
• Magical Geography
  • Place-names and landscapes imbued with magic: e.g., Ovnaghat (Cave of the Cats), reputed entrance to the Otherworld; associated with goddesses like Morrigan ([11:38]).

4. Sources of Folklore: Mythic Cycles and Scribes

• Christian monks turned oral traditions into written “cycles”:
  • Mythological Cycle: Supernatural Tuatha Dé Danann vs. monstrous Fomorians
  • Ulster Cycle, Fenian Cycle (Fionn mac Cumhaill & warriors), and Kings’ Cycle
  • The Book of Invasions records legendary history ([12:07–13:22]).

5. Fairies, Banshees, and Changelings: The Irish Otherworld

• Fairies (Aos Sí/Shee)
  • Not Tinkerbell! Fearsome, powerful, and not to be named lightly ([14:02]).
  • Explanation for misfortune: “If you had crop failures...that’s the fairies. You’ve annoyed the fairies” (Dr. Kenny, [14:02]).
• Banshee
  • Screams foretell death—not of the hearer, but someone they know ([15:01]).
  • Memorable moment: Sean thinking foxes in London night are banshees ([15:02]).
• Changelings
  • Fairies steal human babies and leave a fairy child—a changeling—behind; giveaway signs include "the baby would start to smoke a pipe, play the fiddle, or start talking in an old man’s voice" ([15:57]).

6. Role-play & Problem-Solving: Magical Anxieties

• Agony Aunt Sketches ([16:13–21:15])
  • Sean role-plays a farmer fearful of fairy darts/elf shot:
    • Amulets (mistletoe, mountain ash), wise women (ban fassa/cunning folk), and avoidance of fairy forts offered as remedies ([16:58–17:56]).
    • Ongoing belief: “The only time I hear about fairy forts is when someone’s trying to build a road in Ireland—they’re like, no, I’m not touching that” (Sean Burke, [17:46]).
  • Butter Won't Churn:
    • “Sounds like you’ve got a butter witch on your hands... beings who transform into hares to steal milk from cows” (Dr. Kenny, [20:12]).
    • Remedies: burn thatch from a suspected witch’s house, May Eve bonfires, or harming the hare suspected to be a witch ([21:07]).

7. Curses, Magic Words, and Rituals

• Power of Words
  • Curses executed ritually—e.g., circling cursing stones anti-clockwise ([21:36]).
  • Some saints were known for cursing, using bells and croziers—the “magic wands” of medieval Irish Christianity ([22:22]).
• Religious Attitudes
  • Penance for sorcery, described in Christian penitentials, especially targeting women’s magic ([23:32]).
  • Example: “If you do sorcery, you do half a year’s penance on bread and water” (Dr. Kenny, [24:13]).

8. Unique Magical Defenses

• Evil Eye
  • Cures included spitting in a child’s face; Sheila-na-gigs (carvings of old women displaying their vulvas) to ward off evil ([18:20–19:23]).
  • "The idea is that these vulvas of old ladies are so powerful that they can avert the evil eye. And the older I get, the more I begin to agree with it...” (Dr. Kenny, [19:23]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Historical Privilege:
  “...it is a tale of two cultures, basically. For most of the Middle Ages... you have Gaelic Irish and the English Irish or the Anglo Irish.” (Dr. Gillian Kenny, [06:34])
• On Fairies:
  "Fairy... doesn’t even begin to describe them. Fairy is a later English name for them. Their original name is the a she, and that means people of the hollow hills in Irish tradition." (Dr. Kenny, [14:02])
• Comedy Highlight:
  “So your baby would start to smoke a pipe or play the fiddle or start talking in an old man’s voice. So then you might go, I think my baby’s a fairy.” (Dr. Kenny, [15:59])
• Banshees in London:
  “When I first moved to London, I heard foxes in the night and I just thought, it's the banshee.” (Sean Burke, [15:02])
• Magic & Cursing Rituals:
  “You can go to places where there are cursing stones... touch them in an anti clockwise direction while uttering the curse.” (Dr. Kenny, [21:36])
• Sheila-na-gigs:
  “These vulvas of old ladies are so powerful that they can avert the evil eye. And the older I get, the more I begin to agree with it.” (Dr. Gillian Kenny, [19:23])

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Nuance Window ([24:31–27:43])

A poetic, captivating summary by Dr. Kenny on the crucial role of magic in Irish history:

• The “land itself was marked by magic” – fairy tales and local superstitions mediated people’s relationship with nature, power, and each other.
• “Its life, both seen and unseen, was always on a knife edge in medieval Ireland. And so over centuries, people developed the means to manage those relationships, to engage with the land as a goddess, to try and mollify her.”
• Magic served social, protective, and emotional needs, with experts mediating relationships with the supernatural.
• Belief persisted into the 20th and even 21st century (not disturbing fairy forts or bushes during roadworks).
• “Ireland’s a modern, educated country. But in a Western world which has lost its connection with nature and its spirits, we might ponder the value of lingering powerful guardians of the land who we dare not interfere with. It seems to me that that's not at all a bad magical belief to hold onto.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:37] – Defining Medieval Ireland & Historical Scope
• [06:34] – Gaelic vs. Anglo-Irish Society
• [10:20] – What Is Magic?
• [11:38] – Magical Landmarks (Cave of the Cats, Otherworld)
• [12:07] – Mythological Cycles & Scribes
• [14:02] – Fairies/Aos Sí & Banshees
• [16:13] – Roleplay: Agony Aunt (fairy darts, fairy forts)
• [18:14] – Evil Eye & Magical Cures
• [21:36] – Cursing Rituals & Power of Words
• [23:32] – Church and Magic; Penitentials
• [24:31] – Nuance Window (Magic’s Cultural Importance)

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Conclusion & Takeaways

The episode blends scholarly insight and playful comedy, making centuries-old Irish magical beliefs feel vivid and relevant. Magic, for medieval Irish people, was ever-present: in the land, in rituals, in the words people spoke, and in their explanations for life’s uncertainties. These beliefs allowed communities to channel hopes, fears, and social tensions through rituals, stories, and practices—many surviving, in various forms, to this day.

Final Words:
“Magic matters. From understanding the types of charms women chanted over sick children...magic was such a standard part of life that the lawyers put safeguards and punishments in place...Magic lasted a long time in Ireland until the 20th century...And maybe that’s not a bad thing.” (Dr. Gillian Kenny, [24:51–27:43])

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For Further Listening

Greg Jenner recommends checking out the Old Norse Sagas episode for more mythic intersections between Irish and Norse folklore ([28:21]).

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And that hum of excitement you can hear in the air is because we're coming to you live from the Hay Literary Festival in Wales. Say hello, audience. So today we are meandering back to medieval Ireland to learn all about Irish magic. And I did an Irish there, didn't I? Did a. Sorry. To learn all about Irish magic and folklore in the Middle Ages. And to help me separate history from hocus pocus, I'm joined by two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian of medieval and early modern Ireland, specializing in women, gender and folklore. She's returning to youo Dead To Me after her raucous run in our Granja O' Malley episode. Absolute chaos it was. It's Dr. Gillian Kenny. Welcome back, Jill. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian, writer and actor. You might have Caught him on the hilarious sketch show no worries if not the Michael Fry show or Hollywood Hijack. And it's very likely you've seen him on Tinternet because he's one of those young people who does viral sketch comedy, and he does them very well. It's Sean Burke. You're welcome, Sean.

[Dr. Van Tulliken (Chris or Xand)]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Thrilled to have you on, Shaun. First timer?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, yeah, first timer.

[Greg Jenner]

So I have to ask the contractually obliged question. Did you do medieval Irish history at school? I think. Good.

[Sean Burke]

It's a while ago now. Counterintuitively. We studied a lot of American history in school.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the Joe Biden curriculum.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, yeah. We're still so proud of JFK to this day.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? We start, as ever, with the so what do you know? This is Warrior. Have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener and audience. Hello. Know about today subject. And I'm guessing most of you don't know a huge amount about medieval Ireland, let alone medieval Irish magic and folklore. Perhaps you're conjuring up vague images of banshees frolicking around forests. Pop culture is not exactly bursting with references to Irish magic. You can get glimpses in films like Hellboy 2. Not everyone's fave, I guess. It's got characters there that are based on the mythological race called the Tuathed Danann. You've got sinister fairies in Jonathan Strange. Mr. Norrell. Anyone seen Excalibur, Arthuriana? That's got a sort of Irishy vibe. And you've got countless cultural references in films and books and TV to fairies and elves and other worlds. But what else do we need to know? Right, Dr. Jill, start with the basics. What is Ireland? No, come on, we can do better than that.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

No pressure.

[Greg Jenner]

How are we defining medieval island? Because you, as a historian, go longer into the medieval period than I do as a historian in the medieval period.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

So presumably everyone knows where Ireland is. We just start with that one. It's just over to the left, the one that looks like a teddy bear. So it does go a little bit longer. Goes into the 16th and 17th centuries because Gaelic Ireland, which was the predominant culture on the island, spread into that. It was sadly destroyed in the 16th and 17th centuries, but we won't talk about that today.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a comedy show.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

It's a comedy show. Welsh might understand it. Any Welsh in the audience? No. Anyway, so today we'll talk mostly about Ireland after the conversion to Christianity in the 5th century, as that's where we start to get most of our literary sources. And this conversion brought the huge economic, social and intellectual changes. But we do have some idea about what happened in pre Christian Ireland. There's some historical sources, but we use archaeology as well. There's certainly an idea that there was a kind of a nature worship around forests and wells. Of course, there's the druids, which people will of course love a Druid be aware of. But of course, when the Christians come along in the 5th century, they run those out and then they start to write down the oral tales. But of course, everything has a veneer of Christianity on it.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so 5th century is the Christianization of Ireland. Is that sort of St. Patrick's vibe?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Yeah, that's St. Patrick lands then and then runs around battling druids and does the whole shebang, which I'm sure Sean knows about as a good Irishman.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, the whole shebang drove the snakes out as well while he was at it. The whole thing with the shamrock, the logo launch, resounding success.

[Greg Jenner]

How are you imagining life in medieval island, Sean? What's your sort of go to image in your head?

[Sean Burke]

Lots of fields, a few little huts. Probably cheaper rent, I imagine, than nowadays, so not too bad, to be honest.

[Greg Jenner]

Overall, Jill, what do we mean by medieval island in terms of life and identity, culture?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Well, Sean pretty much had it. No, he didn't.

[Sean Burke]

Thank you.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Anyway, the story is medieval Ireland is, of course, it is a tale of two cultures, basically. For most of the Middle Ages, particularly the later period, you have Gaelic Irish and the English Irish or the Anglo Irish, they were known. What we're talking about today are really Gaelic Irish culture and beliefs and society. So within that, it's a very hierarchical, It's a very patriarchal system. There are what used to be kings, they became lords. There's loads of little kingdoms and lordships that gave allegiance to kind of overlords. And this is medieval Europe. So of course, it's rural. People are working the land fields. Yeah, see, come on. There's widespread violence. Of course there is, because it's a warrior society. But what's really interesting about medieval Gaelic island to me is that there is an intellectual class which is right at the top. And these are the bards, the olives, the professors. And they have huge rights and absolute respect at the top. So these are historians right at the top of the tree. So, yes, my ancestors knew what was what.

[Greg Jenner]

Comedians.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

So men were allowed to be this and.

[Sean Burke]

Okay.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

And women. Sorry, women were not. So there was types of comedian called abragatore, which was a professional farter. Oh, yeah, that's on. Do you know what I mean? It's an option. Do you know what I mean? If the whole thing doesn't work out,

[Sean Burke]

I do that for free all the time. If I could monetize that.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

So, yeah, there's comedians in medieval Ireland, but they are always male.

[Sean Burke]

Okay, all right.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Listener wasn't perfect, you know what I mean?

[Greg Jenner]

But there's another big influence coming down the tracks as well. It's the infamous V word. Sean, what is the V word in the medieval period?

[Sean Burke]

Vegans.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna go Vikings. Vegans is fine.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was about to say.

[Greg Jenner]

No, Vikings.

[Sean Burke]

Well, Dublin's a Viking settlement.

[Greg Jenner]

It is, yeah.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. So I'm from Dublin, so I'm technically Viking is what you're saying.

[Greg Jenner]

You've got the moustache.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. So the listeners at home will just have to trust us on that one as well.

[Greg Jenner]

You've also got the English showing up. Sorry. But we also get a special guest appearance from the Welsh.

[Sean Burke]

Wow.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Don't shave too soon. Because basically the Welsh you invaded.

[Sean Burke]

Oh, well.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, you've lost the room.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

But all I'm saying is you were owed one because in the early medieval period, the Irish used to raid along your coasts and catch slaves. So fair enough. Okay. Tit for tit, we'll give that one to the Welsh. Do you know what I mean?

[Sean Burke]

Wasn't it? They're rising up again.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

There we go.

[Sean Burke]

Okay, okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Close the gates.

[Sean Burke]

We're outnumbered here.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Let's take the festival, Sean. Let's do it. But anyway, what happened was in 1166, the King of Leinster, Dirt MacMurrough, had been exiled and he approached Henry II asking for help to get back his kingdom of Leinster. And Henry said yes, of course, because he quite fancied getting a foothold in Ireland. What I think we might nicely term a whole load of back and forth over the medieval period and verlant and afterwards. But after the English arrived, there's a whole shifting pattern of territory controlled by the English king. It becomes a real mishmash of different kind of cultures. By the early 16th century, about 60% of the island is controlled or influenced by Gaelic lords. So it's very heavily Gaelic. What's interesting is that this consistent Gaelic identity spread across the island. It was very consistent. They used the same language, same system of laws, and that even spread up into Scotland into what's widely called the gwaeltoct. So. So it was a whole outward looking, Irish speaking world which was kind of very active and very vibrant by that stage.

[Greg Jenner]

Time now to talk about magic, the realm of magic. Shaun, what is magic?

[Sean Burke]

That's a very conceptual question, Greg. Harry Potter springs to mind, but famously English. Things that cannot be explained by, you know, logic and science. Mystical stuff.

[Greg Jenner]

The supernatural.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

All right. Are we happy with that definition?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Yeah, it does involve some of that, but mostly Irish magic is about influencing material reaction through words. So words quite literally transform reality in the Irish system. Whether because of its inherent power in the words themselves, or thanks to the intervention of a supernatural being, you make a supplication. So words of power have three uses in the Irish system. It's healing, harming and protection. We also see the importance of words in things like place names, which were often associated with mystic and mythical beings. The land itself is suffused with magic. In Rath Crown, in County Ross Common, there's a cave called Ovnaghat, the Cave of the Cats, which since medieval times has been thought of as the entrance to the otherworld. And that's very much associated with the goddess Morrigan. She's a very fearsome battle goddess who is said to emerge out of there once a year with her host to lay waste.

[Greg Jenner]

Where's the entrance to the underworld? The underworld?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

The Cave of the Cats. Yeah. Rath Crowen in County Roscommon. And that's also a place associated with Queen Maeve, who is also a very badly behaved woman.

[Greg Jenner]

So many of the magical beliefs we're discussing today, Jill, they come from oral traditions of stories, magical tales and myths that are recorded. They're written down during the Christian era. They're sorted into what historians call cycles, which has nothing to do with bicycles. It's to do with collections of stories.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

They are grouped into collections. They feature different beings which appear in magical tales. And as I said, they were written down by Christian monks. They're grouped into these cycles. There's a mythological cycle and that features the Tuhadidanan, who were mangled in Hellboy 2, as Greg was saying in the beginning. So they usually translate as tribes of people of the goddess Danu. They're a supernatural race who. Who live in the otherworld. And the otherworld is where you go via certain elements in the Irish countryside, like the great passage tombs. The brew and their enemy are a race called the Formorians, which are depicted as evil and monstrous. The Ulster Cycle, which is set in the mythical parts of eastern Ulster and Northern Leinster. The Fenian Cycle, about a mythical hero called Finn Macool and his band of warriors, the Fyra and the King's cycle, which are legends about historical and semi historical Irish kings, and the Tuha Deidanan were said to have acquired magic in the northern islands before coming to island Ireland. So they are what you might know as the fairies. And a lot of this activity is listed in an actual book we have called the Book of Invasions, because we don't forget.

[Greg Jenner]

And you mentioned fairies. How are you picturing a tale?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Fairy.

[Greg Jenner]

Fairy, Sean, are we sort of Tinkerbell with Tato? What's that?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, that feels like the Hollywood version of fairies, but as always with these things, I feel like they're probably more fearsome than that in the actual tellings.

[Greg Jenner]

How big you thinking? This big? Small.

[Sean Burke]

I think waist height. Let's say waist height. But fierce. Small but aggressive. You hear a lot about fairy folks, Irish people.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Sorry, are we not describing Irish people? Yeah, yeah. The idea of a fairy tale, I mean, Hollywood has taken it and made it adorable and cute and small and it's sort of very princessy. But we're not talking that here in Medieval island, are we? Fairies are scary. You don't want to mess.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

They are beings who are immune to our charm. They can be very malevolent. They can love us, they live alongside us in the invisible realm. So the fairy, though, doesn't even begin to describe them. Fairy is a later English name for them. Their original name is the a she, and that means people of the hollow hills in Irish tradition. You never call them by their name because you don't want to get their attention. They provide a very handy mechanism within Gaelic medieval Ireland for explaining bad stuff. So if someone died, unfortunately, if you had problems with livestock, if you had crop failures, that's the fairies. You've annoyed the fairies. Of course, you've got like famous fairies, like the Banshee, for example, who predicted people's deaths by crying out and screeching at them or their loved ones. So the thing about the banshee is if you hear it, you're not going to die, but someone you know is just putting that out there.

[Greg Jenner]

That's for intense.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. When I first moved to London, I heard foxes in the night, and I just thought, it's the banshee.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

But they're not the only ones who will turn up for people, because people, fairies would do you a bad turn if you did one for them. There's a belief in Ireland, for example, in things called fairy darts. Elf darts is another name for them. So it's like bits of stone or they fashion into like arrowheads. They were probably like stone age arrowheads that people found, and they would fire them at cattle and cause them some kind of harm. And fairy women are often described trying to steal away princes or heroes in the midst of. So there's also a belief in changelings, for example, as well. This is where the fairies would swap your baby and put a fairy baby in its place, a changeling. And the way you'd know it was a changeling was, okay, so your baby would start to smoke a pipe

[Sean Burke]

or

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

play the fiddle or start talking in an old man's voice. So then you might go, I think my baby's a fairy.

[Sean Burke]

Subtle giveaway there. Well, look, did the baby always smoke with a pipe?

[Greg Jenner]

What we thought we'd do now, actually, Sean, is because you're a sketch comedian and you've got a range of voices, impressions, we thought maybe we'd give you some role playing to do.

[Sean Burke]

Oh, I'd love a bit of role playing.

[Dr. Van Tulliken (Chris or Xand)]

Props.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got some costumes.

[Sean Burke]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

And then we're gonna have our medieval agony aunt, Dr. Jill. She's gonna help you and your various characters out with their medieval magical problems.

[Sean Burke]

Sounds great.

[Greg Jenner]

So we're gonna have problem number one. So. So, Sean, do you want to pop on your appropriate costume bag of some fairly stereotypical possessions?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Oh, my God. Is that a flat cap?

[Sean Burke]

That is a flat cap. I presume this is for this one. Okay. Here we go. Dear Dr. Jill, help. My cattle have keeled over, and I fear they've fallen foul of fairy darts. How can I protect the rest of my livestock from disgruntled fairy folk?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Hi, Sean. There are a variety of protections against fairy attacks on your cattle. The first is an amulet of mistletoe and mountain ash, which you will have to use. You may also want to enlist the help of your local friendly cunning folk, People who practice healing and defensive magic. So these are the cunning men and wise women, Ban Fassa of the Irish tradition. They can do incantations, prayers, and so on. You must also make sure to avoid disturbing any reported fairy dwellings. There are loads of stories about people being cursed with bad luck if they dig it up in any way or interfered with. Fairy forts. Fairy forts are early medieval homesteads call rats ring forts. So avoid.

[Sean Burke]

The only time I hear about fairy forts is when somebody's trying to build a road in Ireland. They're like, no, I'm not touching that.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

They stopped it. They stopped it.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, yeah, it happens.

[Greg Jenner]

Fairies can be mischief makers, but we don't want to unfairly scapegoat them. Cause, you know, they're not always to blame because there's something else to worry about. Shaun. The evil eye. Have you heard of the evil eye?

[Sean Burke]

You mean like Sauron? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that man. Yeah, yeah. No, outside of that. No, I mean, it sounds familiar, but I actually don't specifically, no.

[Greg Jenner]

Dr. Jill, what is the evil eye? Because I've heard of it, Sean's heard of it, but what is it?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

People were genuinely worried about the evil eye, about the effect on people and animals. There's a Source. In the 16th century, a Jesuit priest, Father Good, and he talks about the fact that cunning folk were regularly employed to cure what he called eye bitten livestock. There's a few options if you get stuck by the evil eye. In 17th century Kildare, parents used to protect their children from the evil eye by spitting in their faces.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, Bring it back, bring it back.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

It's not. I don't. Just don't try that one at home. And even better is the next thing which is even more effective against the evil eye. So all around Ireland, there are mysterious stone carvings called Sheila Nagigs and they are of old women or hags, Kylock, in the Irish tradition. I have no other way of saying this. Displaying their vulva. I have to get it out. So they are a grotesque and they are doing. Just please Google it. Not your work.

[Greg Jenner]

1.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

And the idea is that these vulvas of old ladies are so powerful that they can avert the evil eye. And the older I get, the more I begin to agree with it. I've got to tell you. Yeah, all the hags, all the hugs in the audience.

[Greg Jenner]

Should we have another problem?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, that's a handsome problem.

[Greg Jenner]

Can we have problem number two then? Sean? This is. I think this is a butter problem.

[Sean Burke]

Right? Classic butter problem. Dear Jill, help. The girls are coming over for brunch this weekend and my butter won't churn. How can I make my dairy delicious again?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

99 butter churning problems. Okay, that was a big problem in medieval Ireland because people liked their dairy. So, Sean, sounds like you've got a butter witch on your hands. That's a true thing. These were beings who, in the Irish tradition, transformed into hares to steal milk from cows. And to prevent your butter from being churned to drive away a butterwitch on. What you have to do is burn the thatch from a suspected butter witch's house. You needed to be sure. Or not. If you didn't like her, don't care. You could also drive the cattle through the ashes or smoke of bonfires on May Eve. Or you could try shooting some hares and waiting to see the inevitable horribly hurt old woman staggering around after it.

[Sean Burke]

Okay.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Because she turned back into an old woman. Not because he was she shooting old women. He's shooting hares.

[Sean Burke]

Oh, I'm glad you clarified that.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Yeah. So they are Irish witches. That is an Irish witch. They steal your butter, which is probably the least threatening witch you've ever heard.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So let's talk about magical words and cursing as well. And I think you mentioned it very early on. The idea of cursing and the magical transformative power of words to effect real change in the material world, which is very exciting. But like, how do you curse someone?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

There's a couple of ways you can do it. You can go to a blacksmith, they will help you curse. The blacksmith's curse was really powerful. You can go to places where there are cursing stones. There are actual places in the Irish landscape where they set up cursing altars. And you could go and touch them in an anti clockwise direction while uttering the curse. So it's a huge ritual. Gerald of Wales described Irish saints as having a particularly vindictive cast of mind. And they were very, very good at cursing. And they used props. So they used their bells, their hand bells and what were called their buckles or crosiers. And they used to use them in these spectacular displays of cursing. And there's all these crazy stories where they took their buckle and struck it and killed druids and felled dragons. And so there's a toll tradition of that. They're basically a magic wand.

[Greg Jenner]

They could use those nice anti clockwise

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

on the stone anti clockwise to curse clockwise to send good thoughts. But who is going to travel out to one of these places? Oh yeah, I love my neighbor. Yeah, sure. No, it's. And it's proper, like it's a proper effort. You gotta go like, yeah, you gotta really hate your neighbor. You gotta get in a boat, you're gonna get out there, you're gonna trudge up and then three times you've got certain words to say and then you turn them anti clockwise and bang.

[Sean Burke]

It's a lot to remember. Did you say there was a bell in there as well?

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

So the bishops used to use bells. Very, very famous for it. They little hand bells which they would curse people with.

[Sean Burke]

Right. It really adds an extra oomph. If you could just ring a bell every time you say.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Yeah, they've no special effects. Do you know what I mean?

[Greg Jenner]

It's a big deal.

[Sean Burke]

Back then it was theater.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

It was the type of Theater. It was good.

[Greg Jenner]

But there is still sin in doing some of this cursing magic, right? I mean, I'm trying to get my head around where the rules lie, because we know of penitential handbooks, guidebooks for priests on what happens if a parishioner comes in and they've done a magical sin. So there is still a sense that this is not always okay.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

It's about power. With the early Christian church, they didn't like women doing magic because women often did love magic and magic to try and attempt reproduction and they didn't like that at all. Now, there's a penitential of Finian, as it's called, which dates from 591 and that does use the term maleficium, which is sorcery, to refer to magic. It's a really early use of the phrase. Interestingly, when the church appeared in Ireland, the words for magic exploded. So that's what they were talking about. They were fixated on magic after they arrived and on controlling it. So in the penitential of Finnian, if you do sorcery, you do half a year's penance on bread and water. If you use sorcery to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy and you get an abstention from wine and meat for two years. Ooh, now that sounds a lot, but it's actually not. That's actually quite a small one. So they were very cognizant that women were doing this kind of magic and they needed to prepare for it.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance Window. Time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Sean and I churn our butter for two whole minutes while Dr. Jill brings her magic touch to today's story. So pray silence for the Nuance Window and take it away, Dr. Jill.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Right, well, after all of that, I hope I've convinced some of you that magic matters. To my mind, how can we ever really lay claim to uncovering a culture's secrets if we pay no heed to their inner secret lives? In Ireland's case, those were millennia long conversations with gods, goddesses and the realm invisible. The land itself was marked by magic. For thousands of years, human sacrifices lay buried in in the ancient quiet of Ireland's dank, velvety soil. Those bog bodies ritually killed at the borders of ancient kingdoms so that they could continue to protect them, even in the afterlife. And embedded above them in Ireland's physical landscape is a magical geography which everyone knew. The homes of their invisible neighbours. The she, the forts, bushes, trees and the great brew which they guarded ferociously because the Land was shared. These places teemed with invisible life, and the fairy folks were just as capricious and unpredictable as the land and weather. Its life, both seen and unseen, was always on a knife edge in medieval Ireland. And so over centuries, people developed the means to manage those relationships, to engage with the land as a goddess, to try and mollify her. Experts emerged whose skills allowed them to intercede with the she to keep the peace. And opportunities were found to magically redirect the stress and fear that was a constant companion to many. For example, if you hated your neighbour and wished to harm them but couldn't, what better way to relieve the stress than to take yourself to the place of the cursing stones and do that? So magic matters. From understanding the types of charms women chanted over sick children, to figuring out just how a great saint used magic to enchant a woman into loving a man, and on to absorbing how magic was such a standard part of life that the lawyers put safeguards and punishments in place. From looking at all of this, we can tell lots about how and why the society used magic, which in turn tells us loads about the nature and balance of power and belief in Ireland. How social change, gender roles, and about how human beings understood and charted their responses in times of both crisis and plenty. Magic lasted a long time in Ireland until the 20th century. Anthropological students were still visiting and writing theses on Banshee belief. In 1999, famously, a campaign was run not to disturb a fairy bush in Clare while a road bypass was being built. Have those beliefs now gone? A lot of them, sure, but perhaps not all of them. And maybe that's not a bad thing. Irish farmers won't interfere with a ferry fort even today. Does that speak to a backwardness? No, of course not. Ireland's a modern, educated country. But in a Western world which has lost its connection with nature and its spirits, we might ponder the value of lingering powerful guardians of the land who we dare not interfere with. It seems to me that that's not at all a bad magical belief to hold onto. Thanks.

[Sean Burke]

Lovely.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you very much. Fab thoughts on that, Sean?

[Sean Burke]

Irish people have an excuse for everything. Oh, I'm late. Oh, it was the fairies. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

You just want to watch yourself tonight. I'm saying you think you hear a fox. Just be careful, Stevan Chi.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, right. Okay, I think we're done with our episode, so an enormous thank you to Sean, thank you to Jill and Listener. If you want more medieval myths and stories, check out our episode on old Norse sagas, because Actually, maybe they're slightly interacting with.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Yeah, yeah. You get Irish characters in Norse sagas.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, There we go then. So it's a revision homework. It's the same story from a different perspective. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. Just time for me to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, our very own medieval wizard, Dr. Gillian Kenney. Thank you, Jill.

[Dr. Gillian Kenny]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in comedy corner, the sensational sean burke. Thank you, sean. But for now, I'm off to go and spit in a child's face.

[Sean Burke]

Bye.

[Dr. Van Tulliken (Chris or Xand)]

Hi, we're the Van Tulliken, the identical twin Dr. Van Tullikens. Chris and Xand. In what's up Docs? We're diving into the messy, complicated world

[Greg Jenner]

of health and well being.

[Dr. Van Tulliken (Chris or Xand)]

We are living in the middle of what I would call a therapeutic revolution. But it can sometimes be hard to know what's really best for us. Do I need to take a testosterone supplement? How can I fix my creaky knees? Why do I get hangry? Is organic food actually better for me? We are going to be your guides through the confusion. We'll talk to experts in the field and argue about what we've learned and share what we've learned. And maybe disagree a fair bit too. No, we won't. What's up docs from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

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[Greg Jenner]

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