Palaeolithic Cave Art (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Palaeolithic Cave Art" – You're Dead to Me
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests:

• Dr. Isabel Wisher, Postdoctoral Researcher at Aarhus University, Denmark
• Sean Burke, Comedian and Sketch Artist

Release Date: December 6, 2024
Duration: Approximately 27 minutes

---

1. Introduction

You're Dead to Me, hosted by Greg Jenner, delves into the intriguing world of Paleolithic cave art in this episode titled "Palaeolithic Cave Art (Radio Edit)." Bridging the realms of history and comedy, Greg brings together Dr. Isabel Wisher, a historian specializing in Upper Paleolithic cave art, and Sean Burke, a comedian with a knack for injecting humor into historical discussions.

2. Understanding the Paleolithic Period

Timestamp: [04:32]

Dr. Isabel Wisher provides an overview of the Paleolithic era, emphasizing its vast temporal span from approximately 3.3 million years ago to 12,000 years ago. This period is segmented into three distinct phases:

• Lower Paleolithic: 3 million to ~300,000 years ago
• Middle Paleolithic: ~300,000 to ~50,000 years ago
• Upper Paleolithic: ~50,000 to 12,000 years ago

The Upper Paleolithic marks the advent of Homo sapiens in Europe and the gradual decline of Neanderthal populations. Dr. Wisher speculates that interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals may have contributed to the latter's disappearance, humorously noting, "You have 4% Neanderthal DNA, Sean. Who told you that?" ([06:15]).

3. Early Discoveries of Cave Art

Timestamp: [06:40]

Cave art was first unearthed in La Madeleine, France, in 1864, with a significant artifact being a mammoth ivory engraving. This discovery was pivotal as it provided concrete evidence of humans coexisting with ancient megafauna.

The first recognized Paleolithic cave paintings emerged from Altamira, Spain, discovered in 1879 by Marsilio Sans de Saltula. His daughter stumbled upon the iconic bison ceiling, a masterpiece of polychrome artistry, in 1880. Initial skepticism from the academic community was rampant, with figures like Filenova e Piera challenging its authenticity until further discoveries in 1902 confirmed its legitimacy ([08:40]).

Sean Burke humorously compares early skepticism to a comedian's adverse reaction to a new joke, stating, "Probably heckling, to be honest." ([09:21]).

4. Notable Cave Art Sites

Timestamp: [09:55]

• Creswell Crags, Derbyshire: The northernmost example of Paleolithic cave art in Europe.
• Blombos Cave, South Africa: Home to the oldest known Homo sapiens art, including engraved ochre pieces dating back 100,000 to 75,000 years ([10:18]).
• Sulawesi, Indonesia: Recently discovered artwork depicting the Sulawesi warty pig, dated to at least 45,500 years ago, represents the oldest known representative art outside Europe ([11:04]).

5. Recent Discoveries: Sulawesi Warty Pig

Timestamp: [11:04]

A groundbreaking discovery in Sulawesi reveals the oldest representative cave art, showcasing a detailed depiction of a warty pig. This finding challenges previous Eurocentric views of Paleolithic art and suggests multiple origins of artistic expression across different human populations. Dr. Wisher asserts, "It's a way of reinforcing community bonds and connecting with people you haven't seen in a long time." ([24:17]).

6. Themes and Subjects in Cave Art

Timestamp: [13:01]

Contrary to popular belief, Paleolithic cave art seldom depicts humans or predatory scenes. Instead, the art predominantly features animals that were significant to the artists' survival, such as:

• Deer
• Bison
• Ibex (Mountain Goats)
• Horses
• Aurochs (Mega Cows)

Dr. Wisher emphasizes, "Humans are very rare in Paleolithic art." ([15:17]) and explains that artists focused on animals they hunted, which were central to their lives and societies.

7. Techniques and Art Supplies

Timestamp: [15:39]

Paleolithic artists utilized readily available materials to create their masterpieces:

• Pigments: Ochre (red, yellow, brown, purple), charcoal, and manganese oxide.
• Binders: Water, clay, and animal fat to create paint mixtures.
• Application Methods: Hand stencils created by spitting pigment mixed with saliva or using tools like reeds as brushes.

Dr. Wisher details, "These unpredictable light sources are animating the art in some way, creating an animation effect as the firelight flickers across the paintings." ([19:18])

8. Functions and Purposes of Cave Art

Timestamp: [23:01]

Several theories explore the motivations behind Paleolithic cave art:

• Communication: Serving as a visual language to convey stories, experiences, and information across different groups ([23:38]).
• Community Bonding: Acting as a communal activity that reinforces social ties among dispersed hunter-gatherer populations ([24:17]).
• Ritualistic and Shamanistic Practices: Potential connections to early forms of religious or spiritual expression, though Dr. Wisher remains skeptical of simplistic notions like "art for art's sake" ([25:15]).

Sean Burke likens cave art to modern storytelling tools, stating, "It's their equivalent of an Instagram story, really." ([15:29]).

9. Involvement of Children in Cave Art

Timestamp: [25:47]

A significant revelation from Dr. Wisher's recent research highlights the active participation of children in creating cave art. By analyzing anatomical measurements of hand stencils and finger traces, it's evident that children were not mere bystanders but contributors to the artistic legacy. This insight broadens the understanding of cave art as a communal and intergenerational endeavor. Dr. Wisher notes, "Children are actively participating in and probably been taught the importance of this as a way to preserve knowledge in the society." ([27:35])

Sean humorously compares these young artists to modern-day refrigerator photos: "It's their equivalent of the photos on the front of the fridge, I guess." ([27:37])

10. Conclusion

Greg Jenner wraps up the episode by appreciating the depth and richness of Paleolithic cave art, intertwining historical insights with comedic banter. He encourages listeners to explore more episodes, such as those on medieval Irish magic and Neanderthal stories with Tim Minchin.

Dr. Wisher and Sean Burke share their gratitude for being part of the insightful and entertaining discussion, leaving listeners with a profound appreciation for humanity's artistic beginnings.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "It's exactly like you said, Greg. It's these multiple origins. Like it's something innate in us that likes to create, likes to make things." — Dr. Isabel Wisher ([12:19])
• "It's all pareidolia. If you spend your days in the dark looking at animals, you're more likely to see animals, is that right?" — Greg Jenner ([22:10])
• "The whole echo as well, is like a theater performer's dream, you know, really helps you project, you know, telling the story." — Sean Burke ([20:31])

---

Final Thoughts:

This episode of You're Dead to Me masterfully blends historical scholarship with humor, making the ancient practice of cave art both accessible and engaging. Through expert insights and witty exchanges, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of Paleolithic art's origins, techniques, themes, and social significance.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Sean Burke]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

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[Sean Burke]

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[Greg Jenner]

Live the Chumba Life BGW Group. No purchase necessary Void work prohibited by law. Terms and conditions 18 BBC Sounds music radio Podcasts. Hello and welcome to youo DENSER Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are cracking out our crayons and journeying back tens of thousands of years into the deep past to learn all about the Paleolithic and cave art. And to help us paint an audio picture, we have two very special guests in Archaeology Corner. She's a postdoctoral researcher at Aarhus University in Denmark, where she's researching the evolution of early symbolic behavior. Usefully for us, she has a PhD from Durham University in Upper Palaeolithic cave art. It's Dr. Isabel Wisher. Welcome, Izzy.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Hi. Thank you for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, he's a rising star of sketch and Stand up. You may have seen his recent Edinburgh Fringe show, Burke in Progress, a fine title. Or caught him on the Hilar Sketch Show. No worries. If not the Michael Fry show or Hollywood Hijack. If you've got the Internet, I recommend it. It's very good. You've probably seen one of his many viral comedy sketches, but you'll definitely remember him from our episode on medieval Irish folklore. It's Sean Burke. Welcome back, Sean.

[Sean Burke]

Thanks for having me. It's lovely to be back.

[Greg Jenner]

It's lovely to have you back.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You've grown a fantastic moustache.

[Sean Burke]

I did for the last episode as well. I just do it for this podcast.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, I see.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. Yeah. So I need three months notice before every episode appears, even though it's an audio format and it's complet wasted. But I need to know it's there.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm really grateful you've done it. What do you know about cave art? Have you seen any? Have you ever visited any or seen it in a movie?

[Sean Burke]

I'm in films now. I'm sure I visited something to that effect, presumably on a school tour as a kid. From what I know of it, it's recently. It's mainly from YouTube videos. There's lots of hands, usually some vague person shapes and maybe some animals as well. It's usually really delicate and needs to be well preserved. Although when I make a hand painting and put it on the fridge, it's in the bin within days, so. Okay. But, yeah, I know it's fascinating and I know there's a few caves, a few in France. I have happened to watch a few YouTube videos about this topic in the past.

[Greg Jenner]

This is good knowledge, Shaun.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Okay, good.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, yeah, this is good.

[Sean Burke]

First question, what is a cake?

[Greg Jenner]

So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our listener will know about today's subject. And I reckon you've seen some cave art at some point somehow. At least you've spotted some in the background on the Flintstones. It's in everything from animated movies like the Ice Age franchise, which I absolutely love. It's in the Oscar winning classic the English Patient, which I totally forgotten, but it is in there. Maybe you visited a cave on your holidays? Someone like Cresswell Craggs in Derbyshire, or Lascaux in the south of France. But for how long have humans been showcasing their artistic talents? What sort of things did they paint on cave walls? Sean's already given us a summ, but there's more. And were cave people really the first comic book illustrators? Let us find out, shall we? Right, we'll start with some basics. Sean, do you know what we mean by the Paleolithic period? Inverted commas. Give me a date. Range, start and finish.

[Sean Burke]

1975 to 1989. No, I'm gonna say thousands of years ago. And I don't think I can be more precise than that. Am I in the right ballpark?

[Greg Jenner]

You're kind of not actually. God, because really, it's what, 3.3 million?

[Sean Burke]

Oh, way off.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, exactly. So the start of the Paleolithic, this period that we call the paleolithic, is around 3.3 million years ago. So that's defined by when our hominin ancestors first start using stone tools, and then it goes all the way until 12,000 years ago. So it's a huge stretch of Time, and we split that into three chunks. So we talk about the Lower Paleolithic period. This is 3 million ish years ago to about 300,000 ago. Then we have the Middle Palaeolithic period, that goes from 300,000 years ago to about 50,000 years ago, and then the Upper Paleolithic period from about 50,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago. So we're talking about chunks of really long periods of time. Almost all of the art that we know about comes from that end period, the Upper Paleolithic. The Upper Paleolithic period, the start of that is defined by Homo sapiens kind of entering Europe. And then Neanderthals are starting to die out in this period between 50,000 to maybe 40, 35,000 years ago, where Neanderthals are kind of declining in population and.

[Sean Burke]

We don't know why. Did we just annoy them into disappearing?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

I mean, there's lots of different theories about this, everything from, climate change to, you know, Homo sapiens being superior. My personal theory is that it's just we start to get a lot of interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals at this time.

[Sean Burke]

Okay.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

So it could just be that, I mean, they're part of us now. Their population becomes part of the broader homophobia.

[Greg Jenner]

You have 4% Neanderthal DNA, Sean. Who told you that? How did you. I went through your ancestry and.

[Sean Burke]

Well, you really gave you a swab.

[Greg Jenner]

On the way in and.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, well, you work fast.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I do.

[Sean Burke]

That's why you're a bit late.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, yeah. We've got a lab in the back.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

And just stole our hairs.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. The idea of the stone age is 200 years old. So the idea, the concept of it was sort of coined in kind of the 1820s, something like that. But when was cave art first discovered? Is it the Victorians?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Before we discover cave art, the first kind of evidence of art from this period that we find is from 1864.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

So it comes from a site called La Madeleine in France, and it was discovered by Lotte and Christie. And it's this piece of mammoth ivory that has, like, a beautiful kind of engraving of a mammoth on it. And this was not only exciting for being the first art from this period, but it was the first solid evidence that humans existed alongside these ancient animals.

[Greg Jenner]

So a mammoth carved a mammoth, Sean. I mean, you're a sketch artist in a comedy sense, but if you were a sketch artist in an artistic sense, sure. What would be your best artwork made of the thing that it's depicting Maybe.

[Sean Burke]

The shape of a sheep with a flock of sheep.

[Greg Jenner]

Nice.

[Sean Burke]

Now, I know you can't preserve that on a cave wall. We're taking shepherding to brave new places.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about cave paintings, because I think that's probably what listeners are really imagining in their head. So when were those first found?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

The first site that was kind of identified as Paleolithic was Altamira. So this was discovered in 1879 by Marsilio Sans de Saltula. He was kind of excavating and recording parts of the cave.

[Greg Jenner]

This is Spain, isn't it?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

In Spain, Yeah, sorry. Yeah, in Spain. And as he was doing this, his daughter was bored and playing and she come across the bison, the famous bison ceiling of Altamira. So this is really beautiful polychrome. So they're using multiple colors, depictions of bison that are on the ceiling of Altamira. Sansa Saltola had this amazing discovery at Altamira Cave and he wrote this up in 1880. And then Filenova e Piera, who was a professor at the University of Madrid, he then presented discovery at a conference in, I think, 1881. And when he does that, people just can't believe that this was Paleolithic. They had been warned about people making forgeries and wanting to debunk this idea of the Paleolithic being a period, so they wouldn't accept that this was Paleolithic.

[Greg Jenner]

So there's one guy called Halle who visited this site. What do you think he did to disprove its ancientness?

[Sean Burke]

Did he draw something himself? Did he? I'd be like, I can do that.

[Greg Jenner]

Just get out of Sharpie. There you go. Mammoth. What do you want? He did the operation. He wiped his finger across it and smudged it through.

[Sean Burke]

What does that prove? That it's incredibly delicate.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

And it wasn't until 1902 and more kind of discoveries of cave art were emerging at this time that eventually Emile Cartelac writes this apology. Called me a culpa de skeptic. So, you know, I understood two of those. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

It's basically my bad.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, yeah, my bad here Accepts the legitimacy of Altamira. Unfortunately, this was after Sans de Saltulla had passed away. So he never got to see his.

[Greg Jenner]

Site accepted as authentic, priced this artwork, rubbed his finger through it, nearly destroyed it. Sean, what's the comedian's equivalent of that?

[Sean Burke]

Probably heckling, to be honest. If somebody's done a very long set up to a joke and then just going no, halfway through, it's really hard to recover from that.

[Greg Jenner]

That's true.

[Sean Burke]

Trust me.

[Greg Jenner]

All right, so we've done southern France. We've done Altamiro in Spain. Where else were the major sites?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

We have Creswell Crags in Derbyshire. That's actually the northernmost example of cave art that we have. And we also find other examples of Paleolithic art from other sites as far east as sort of Ukraine and Russia, throughout Europe, actually.

[Sean Burke]

Is there any in Ireland, by any chance?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Not that I know of. Unfortunately.

[Sean Burke]

I'll have to make a forgery. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

But we do actually have a much older example of drawing.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah. So the oldest example we have of Homo sapiens making art comes from Blombos Cave in South Africa. And it's a small piece of ochre. So ochre is usually used for drawing on cave walls. Right. But it's just a piece of ogre that is engraved with patterns of lines. And we have a few examples of these, and they date from between 100,000 years ago to 75,000 years ago from this site.

[Greg Jenner]

So really early.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, really early.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So that's 100,000 years ago, the earliest human art that we have in terms of drawing. Let's move on to representative art. This is art that looks like a thing. So, Sean, in the past few months, literally in the past few months, scientists have announced the discovery of the oldest ever painting depicting a real thing.

[Sean Burke]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

It was found in Sulawesi, which is in Indonesia on an island.

[Sean Burke]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you think it shows?

[Sean Burke]

Probably a beach ball. Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm gonna stick with beach ball.

[Greg Jenner]

Beach ball.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, we can show you what it was. I will hand it to you. There you go.

[Sean Burke]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

What can you see?

[Sean Burke]

A very well fed pig. Yeah. Is it?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah.

[Sean Burke]

All right.

[Greg Jenner]

It's an incredible pig, isn't it?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. Yeah. He looks happy and healthy, if you.

[Greg Jenner]

Ask me, Izzy, this is very exciting for numerous reasons. A, it's the oldest ever representative art.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Secondly, art outside Europe.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So tell us about it.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah. So this is known as the Sulawesi warty pig because it has little water.

[Greg Jenner]

It's doing its best.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

I know.

[Sean Burke]

Okay. Wow.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Right. It's from Sulawesi in Indonesia, and it's been dated to at least 45 and a half thousand years ago. But we haven't had anything quite like this from anywhere else in the world. It changes how we understand kind of the beginnings of art.

[Greg Jenner]

Is art something that's invented once and spreads? Or is it a human instinct that shows up constantly in different places because each new group of humans is going, I've got an idea.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah. My personal Feeling is that it's exactly like you said, Greg. It's these multiple origins. Like it's something innate in us that likes to create, likes to make things. And the other evidence that suggests that it's not just a single origin, but possibly a few multiple different origins is we're not the only species to be making art. We now know that Neanderthals were doing it, too. So we have evidence of Neanderthals also producing cave art, ornamenting their bodies. They're making shell beads, too, and probably painting their bodies as well.

[Greg Jenner]

I think listeners are thinking, talk about the bison. Talk about. So what kind of animal? Well, actually, I'll ask you, Sean, what kind of animals, apart from bison? Because that would be cheating. What are you imagining on the wall?

[Sean Burke]

Deer. Mammoths. Because we've mentioned them already. I want to say cats and dogs, but I feel like that's. Let's say wolves.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Sean Burke]

That kind of area. Terrifying animals.

[Greg Jenner]

So you think predatory animals? Yeah, big, scary predatory animals. I think that's a very common response.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And surprisingly, that's not common at all, is it?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

No. The most common animals that people are drawing are the ones that they're hunting. The most common are deer. So you got that one. Bison. Ibex. So mountain goat, that sort of thing.

[Greg Jenner]

Horses, I think.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Horses.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

I knew I was missing one.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, horses and wild cattle called aurochs, which are terrifying. They're mega cows.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, mega cows.

[Greg Jenner]

Imagine a cow. Imagine a cow charging towards you. Yeah, mega cow.

[Sean Burke]

Okay, I got it. I'm running. I'm running.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely enormous. Right.

[Sean Burke]

I thought cows were already pretty big, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

Mega cow. Sean, I don't think you're getting it. Mega cow. So we do have one famous scene.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

It's called the panel of the lions.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

It is, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Where is it?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

It's from Chauvet Cave in France.

[Greg Jenner]

I can show them. Here you are. And hand you a bit of paper.

[Sean Burke]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

This one, I think, is absolutely gorgeous.

[Sean Burke]

Wow. That is pretty cool. That's a whole group of. What are they? Lions? No, a few things.

[Greg Jenner]

Lions chasing big things.

[Sean Burke]

Kind of like a terrifying herd, really.

[Greg Jenner]

The first image I get on this is. It looks like a scene from a kind of comic book or something. It's got a very interesting overlapping.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, you can almost feel sense the movement of it as well. Genuinely. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah. It's like Lion King, the prequel.

[Greg Jenner]

It's fair to say. We would assume that's a hunting scene, right?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

That panel of lions, is that what we're seeing here are these depictions of. You won't believe what I did last week, lads. I went out and I hunted this many lions, and this is what it looked like. What is this for?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

This is a very common misconception about cave art, is that it's always depicting hunting scenes. And you might imagine, you know, little stick figures with their spears sort of chasing after animals that might be behind what we've got on the image here. But that's actually not what a lot of cave art is. Humans are very rare in Paleolithic art.

[Sean Burke]

Just observing, like, stuff. Really?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah. So I think what they're doing is trying to capture kind of animal behaviors and something about the animals that communicates some sort of meaning or importance to their society.

[Sean Burke]

This is their version of an Instagram story, really. You know, it might take a bit longer, but it's like, you'll never guess what I saw last weekend. Share it with your friends.

[Greg Jenner]

Sean, let's talk art supplies.

[Sean Burke]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

They couldn't pop down to W. Smith's for their sort of paintbrush set, and they're my first art palette. What do you think they're using to make all this art?

[Sean Burke]

Whatever's to hand.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Sean Burke]

No, because that's art. You know, it's not about being right. It's just about having fun.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Right.

[Sean Burke]

And using whatever's to hand. And from what I know throughout history, a lot of it, like, art supplies, are often, like, pretty nasty stuff. I'm not gonna speculate, but we can all imagine whatever's available. Did you say okra earlier? Yeah, that kind of thing.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

What they tend to be using is ochre, and ochre comes in a few different shades. So we have red ochre is a very common one. Yellow ochre, browns, and sort of purple hues, too. And then they're using charcoal as a black pigment and also manganese oxide as well as a black pigment. But that is kind of it.

[Sean Burke]

So there's very black and brown. Those are your choices?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Black, brown, red and yellow, and a little bit of white.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah. What they are using is sort of water or clay to kind of mix this into a paint. Also animal fat to create a thicker sort of paint mixture that then they will mix it up and then put it on the walls. They can also just use it without that, like a crayon, and just draw directly on the walls.

[Greg Jenner]

So there's a slightly emulsive quality to adding the fats in. Right. Makes it slightly thicker and, yeah, stick.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

On the cave wall better. But also it makes your pigment go further too. And possibly saliva is the only bodily fluid that we know that they're probably using in this. So some of the hand stencils that we mentioned earlier, the way that they're made is by spraying ochre from the mouth onto the hand. Sometimes they might have used a tool, like a little tube, a burp, Like a straw. Like a straw, yeah, yeah. Or just directly from the mouth. So there's some ideas that maybe they're just putting the powder in their mouths, mixing it with saliva to create the paint, and then spitting it on their hands.

[Sean Burke]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, let's talk about the canvas, or rather the cavernous. I mean, the actual physical space we're talking about. Sean, when you're writing a comedy show, do you ever think about the physical space you're performing in? So the lights, the sound, the acoustics?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, definitely. Actually, I think, no joke, I think a cave would be a great place for a stand up comedy night, because nice and dark. Probably just have one light source, which is the fire, because you want there to be as few distractions as possible. So that's the spotlight on me, on the stage in the center of the room, ideally with a crowd there as well. That's one thing I do think of.

[Greg Jenner]

As well, a crowd of cave beds, crowd of cavemen.

[Sean Burke]

You know, probably some toilet humor. That's their kind of ballpark. That's fine. I did a show last night and I had a PowerPoint presentation in there. As far as I know, they didn't have that technology back then. Probably not, but you want it nice and big, nice and clear. It's just very important that everyone understands exactly what's going on in my experience.

[Greg Jenner]

That's nice. So, Izzy, do we get a sense of the cave as a art space?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Absolutely. And if you'll indulge me, we can enter a cave. Imagine ourselves in a cave. Yeah, there we go. Tens of thousands of years ago. So we start to notice these unusual echoing acoustics to the space around us. We're in complete darkness and we hear this flicker of our firelight that's illuminating the space around us. So the firelight's sort of dancing across the walls, lighting up these unusual stalagmites and stalactites and undulating surfaces. And we might even tactically engage with the space around us, feel the sort of smooth flow stone or the rough surfaces of the cave.

[Greg Jenner]

Have a fondle, Sean. Have a fondle.

[Sean Burke]

Wow. Oh, no. I've destroyed an ancient piece of art. This was Greg's idea, I swear.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

So all of these sensory experiences would have been embedded in the making and experience of this art. And recently in archaeology, we've been appreciating these sensory experiences in what's kind of a sensory turn in our interpretation. So we're trying to appreciate how these different dynamics, the acoustics, the firelight, the tactile interactions, would have enriched the art that they're making. And for me especially, firelight is a really an amazing way of imagining this art in a new light. So I didn't intend to have a pun there. In a new light, we'll take it. So this unpredictable light source is probably kind of animating the art in some way. If we look back on the panel of the lions here, we can imagine as the flickering light is dancing across this, we see one lion and then the next, and it creates this sort of animation effect to the art. And this warm light also makes us feel more sociable, comfortable as well. So all of this is really, like, enriching this experience of the art and the art making Beautiful.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, absolutely. The whole echo as well, is like a theater performer's dream, you know, really helps you project, you know, telling the story. So that's ideal.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean Burke]

Friends. Romans. Exactly. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

It's great, isn't it? So let's leave the cave for now, because that was charming. But it's quite damp in there, so that's fascinating. The idea of illustrating the. You've got static art, but it's illustrated by the flicker of the flames, is a fascinating animating technique. Sean, do you know what the word pareidolia means?

[Sean Burke]

I'll be honest. No.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you want to have a guess?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah. Is it the study of beach balls?

[Greg Jenner]

If only it was. It's actually the study of parasols, you know, the umbrellas.

[Sean Burke]

Oh, so close.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

So close.

[Greg Jenner]

Now, Izzy, what is pareidolia?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

So pareidolia is a psychological phenomenon of seeing meaningful forms in random patterns. And this is something that everyone experiences. So it's that phenomenon of if you look at a cloud and you see it looking like a face or a rabbit or a dog or whatever, that's all pareidolia. What some of my research has focused on is trying to understand how pareidolia influenced the making of cave art. So we think that maybe the flickering sort of firelight enrich this experience of pareidolia and then their drawing, sort of what they're seeing on the cave wall.

[Sean Burke]

I'm glad I have a word for it now, because I see it on social media all the time when somebody's like, oh, this house looks like a face. Or this coat hanger looks like a drunk octopus that wants to fight you. I think that's the best one.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, it's all Paradoia.

[Greg Jenner]

But what's so interesting, I think, is that pareidolia, if I understand it, is you're more likely to see the thing that you're accustomed to seeing.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So if you spend your days in the dark looking at animals, you're more likely to see animals, is that right?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, kind of. So we experience a lot of face pareidolia, so we see faces everywhere. But if you imagine that you're a hunter gatherer living in the Paleolithic, you're not encountering many other humans. They're living in quite sparse populations. But what you are focusing your attention on is animals. So you're tracking migrating herds across the landscape. You have to be attuned to sort of, if a bison's going to leap out and attack you or something, you have to really be paying attention to these subtle visual cues of animals. So my little pet theory is then, where we see faces all the time, they're seeing animals all the time. And that might account for why animals are such a dominant theme in Paleolithic art.

[Greg Jenner]

Fascinating, isn't it?

[Sean Burke]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm going to drag us back a little bit more towards form and function. A little bit of like, why might this art have been so important to people, Sean? I mean, we've already talked about, like, hunting manual. Are there any other theories you might want to chuck out as to why people would spend such time and effort doing art?

[Sean Burke]

Something to do, really?

[Greg Jenner]

I think the one I would pitch more seriously would be when you get people around a campfire and they start telling stories. And I've had this on an archaeology dig. You get people around a campfire from different backgrounds, they don't all speak the same language. Sometimes art is quite useful. So is there anything in that?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

I definitely think so. And this is actually one theory that people have had, particularly about these very big caves, and the famous caves like Lascaux or Altamira, is that maybe these are aggregation sites. So we're dealing with mobile hunter gatherer populations, and for most of the year they're sort of off doing their thing. But maybe they come together seasonally, aggregate in one spot. So you have different populations of people coming together and then they're producing art. Maybe that's like a way of reinforcing sort of community bonds and connecting with these people that you haven't seen in a long time. Or yeah, it could be that they need a common language and that that's bison, you know, we don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

Did you speak bison fluently?

[Sean Burke]

Wow.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah. That's great.

[Sean Burke]

Well, it's visual storytelling. You know, it's show, don't tell truly.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Sean Burke]

It's a very ancient principle, it turns out, isn't it?

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

There's also this idea that it's a way to exchange information. You know, some people have been off in Germany and they've seen something there and they need to communicate it efficiently.

[Greg Jenner]

So. Okay, so I'm pushing the kind of communication functionality. Are there any other theories that you want to name check? Even if you don't agree with them? Anything you.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Yeah, there's. Well, it's kind of Sean's first interpretation. They were just bored and doing it. It's what we call this art for art's sake idea. So maybe it didn't mean anything. They're just bored and doodling on the walls. I don't agree with that one. I think it's a lot to invest. If you're just bored, you can do other things. Right. And not go into a deep cave. There's lots of ideas about shamanism and ritual. Yeah, that's a very common interpretation.

[Greg Jenner]

Maybe religious. The sort of early phase of what we might call ritual behavior that, you know, that's no longer simply just survive, but is now, like, here are some ideas we have about maybe there's a sky God or a reindeer God. Yeah, the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Sean and I put down our paintbrushes and sit quietly by the fire for two minutes for some storytelling, while Dr. Izzy takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about Paleolithic art. Take it away, Dr. Izzy.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

So we've talked a lot about the people who made cave art, how they lived, where they lived, and maybe even what they used the art for. Right. And we've discussed that maybe other species were engaging in making cave art too. But when we imagine a cave artist, what do we see? We tend to imagine these were adults engaging in this behavior. And this is really a problem in archaeology more broadly, but especially when we're dealing with this period. But we know, or we should know that children were around at this period, too. And so we must be seeing some children's behaviors in the archaeological record as well. So there have been some studies looking at the anatomical measurements of hand stencils or traces left by the fingers. We call those finger flutings that have demonstrated that children were There alongside adults making this art. This adds a whole new dimension to understanding cave art. What we thought was actually an adult activity exclusively. We know that children are actively participating in and probably been taught the importance of this as a way to preserve knowledge in the society. But in my recent research, I've also shown some evidence of children kind of doing their own thing with K Bart, which I think is really cool too. So I looked at a panel from Las Monadas Cave in Spain, and this is a group of drawings that was previously interpreted as a panel of enigmatic signs, which is archaeology speak for we don't know. But it's very weird. It's quite low to the ground to the original Paleolithic cave floor. It consists of lots of sort of concentric circles and random lines that insect each other. And this is all characteristic of very young children's marks. So I've made the argument that this is children, very young children making this art.

[Greg Jenner]

Wonderful. Thank you, Izzy. Shaun.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, how about that? So it's their equivalent of the photos on the front of the fridge, I guess. Exactly, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Beautiful. I love it. Thank you so much, listener. If you want more from Sean, of course you do, check out our episode on medieval Irish magic. Also some animal stories in that. Some quite weird things in there.

[Sean Burke]

Yeah, it gets weird.

[Greg Jenner]

For more prehistoric stories, listen to our episode about the Neanderthals with Tim Minchin. That was a fun one. And if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the incredible Dr. Izzy Wisher from Aarhus University in Denmark. Thank you, Izzy.

[Dr. Isabel Wisher]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the spectacular Sean Burke. Thank you, Sean.

[Sean Burke]

Thank you very much for having me.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we uncover another lost historical masterpiece and try not to smudge it with our finger. But for now, I'm off to confuse future archaeologists by painting mammoths all over the local coffee shop. Bye. Hello, I'm India Rackson and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches in this series from BBC Radio 4, simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore the meaning of the word. Today, it is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world full of forgotten connections to land and to power. Lost graves, stolen words and indelible marks on the world. Because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all. Come and find out why on which with me, India Atkinson subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Annalise Riles]

Americans are more divided than ever. What can be done to start repairing trust between people of differing opinions? How about trying a little diplomacy? Join me, Annalise Riles for season two of Everyday Ambassador where we talk to experts and geopolitical thinkers from around the world to show you the small moves that make big change. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sean Burke]

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