Philippe, Duc d’Orléans: in the shadow of the Sun King

Summary

You're Dead To Me: Philippe, Duc d’Orléans – In the Shadow of the Sun King

Podcast: You’re Dead To Me by BBC Radio 4
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Jonathan Spangler (Senior Lecturer, Manchester Metropolitan University, historian of French aristocracy); Tom Allen (comedian, writer, presenter)
Date: February 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This lively and insightful episode explores the life of Philippe, Duc d’Orléans, the flamboyant and complex younger brother of King Louis XIV (the “Sun King”) of France. Through laughs, first-hand historical expertise, and sparkling banter, the panel investigates Philippe’s role as the archetypal "spare" royal: his upbringing, personality, romances, achievements, and enduring reputation as both a queer icon and an underappreciated pillar of the French monarchy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Birth and Upbringing of Philippe (04:25–14:33)

• Parents: Son of King Louis XIII and Anne of Austria (from Spanish Habsburgs; name confusion explained).
• Miracle Births: Both Louis XIV and Philippe arrived after years of childless marriage, underlining their dynastic importance.
  • “...there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis XIV is born. And so they of course name him Le Dieu d', Honne, which is the God given son.” – Spangler (06:10)
• The 'Spare': Philippe raised with the same training as Louis—military, etiquette, Catholicism—since so many royal children could die young.
• Sibling Dynamics: Constant deference to Louis set from childhood; even playful squabbles enforced hierarchy.
• Gender Fluidity and Rumor: Discussion of how young aristocratic boys wore dresses until age 7, and the persistent legend that Anne raised Philippe as a girl to make him less threatening as a potential rival.

2. Childhood Trauma and Civil War (10:13–13:00)

• Early Loss: Philippe lost his father at age 3; the Fronde civil wars created chaos and trauma.
• Problematic Uncle Gaston: Gaston provided a cautionary family example of a rebellious “spare” and was woven into popular culture and literature (Three Musketeers, etc.).

3. Fashion, Theatrics, and Character (14:49–21:15)

• Dressing as a Girl: Debunked or nuanced the notion that Philippe was emasculated or intentionally made gay for political convenience.
• Flamboyance and Identity: Philippe’s theatrical flair, interest in fashion, and later cross-dressing were authentic self-expression as much as courtly fashion.
  • “Men were wearing high heel shoes, were wearing lace, were wearing huge bows and giant curled wigs and lots of perfumed costumes. So being in drag then didn't mean what it does now.” – Spangler (21:10)
• Buckling Against Stereotype: Despite being branded “frivolous,” Philippe was loyal, good-natured, and uniquely positioned to challenge his brother.

4. Marriage, Romance and Court Intrigue (23:30–34:53)

• Marriage Arrangements:
  • First marriage to Henrietta Anne (Charles II’s sister)—a union fraught with jealousy, competition for courtly attention, and mutual infidelities.
  • Attempted (and refused) marriage to cousin La Grande Mademoiselle, Europe’s richest woman.
• Children: Despite sexual preference for men, fathered several children (some survived, some did not).
• Manipulation via Pregnancy: Philippe weaponized pregnancies to keep Henrietta away from balls—a vengeful, petty dynamic.
  • “If Henriette was outshining him at court, he had a weapon at his disposal, which was making her pregnant…so that she couldn't be there in the winter and had to go to the country house.” – Spangler (26:44)
• Menage à Trois: Both had lovers; notably, the Chevalier de Lorraine became Philippe’s lifelong partner.

5. Open Same-Sex Love and Societal Context (28:27–32:13)

• Chevalier de Lorraine: A 40-year romantic partnership, remarkable for the era.
  • “The Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years. I've never found an example like that in the 17th century of two men together like that.” – Spangler (31:21)
• Attitudes at Court: While upper-class circles tolerated “practices,” public scandal had to be avoided, resulting in periodic exile of certain lovers.
• Fluidity: The notion of fixed sexual identity did not exist—focus was on behaviors, not labels.

6. Political Skill and Scandal (33:43–38:53)

• Henrietta’s Diplomacy and Sudden Death: Played a pivotal role in brokering the secret Treaty of Dover between France and England. Died suddenly after claiming she was poisoned, rumors swirling around Philippe and his lover.
• Second Marriage to Liselotte (Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate): A practical, fruitful, and emotionally robust union. Liselotte’s letters offer invaluable insights and humor.
  • “She has a very funny letter where she says, ‘my brother called me badger nose and I laughed even harder.’” – Spangler (37:47)

7. Military Achievements and The Shadow of Louis XIV (40:50–43:43)

• Battle of Cassel (1677, 41:00–42:30): Philippe’s (accidentally delayed by wig adjustments) victory against William of Orange. Instead of praise, his brother Louis grew jealous and removed him from military command.
  • “The king supposedly said, I would have really, really given millions to have won a battle. Because Louis XIV's never actually won a battle.” – Spangler (42:32)
• Constant Undermining: Louis systematically prevented Philippe or his offspring from gaining too much power or recognition.

8. Philippe’s Later Life: Power, Patronage and Riches (44:10–47:13)

• Independent Wealth: Inherited vast fortune from La Grande Mademoiselle; became a savvy landowner and businessman.
• Patron of the Arts: Established the Troupe de Monsieur at the Palais Royale and was a major supporter of Molière, avant-garde art, and collections.
  • “Philippe's much more interested in Chinese art long before anybody else is.” – Spangler (46:59)
• Parallel Lives: Louis detested Paris; Philippe thrived there as a bon vivant, art collector, and host.

9. Family Legacy and Death (48:01–51:35)

• Complicated Succession: Philippe’s son, Duke de Chartres, was also blocked militarily by Louis XIV. Still, after both brothers’ deaths, Chartres became Regent of France for Louis XV.
• Philippe’s Death: Died of a probable heart attack after a bitter argument with Louis XIV over his son’s career.
  • “He goes to Versailles and argues with Louis about Chartres not being given a job, and then he's so angry and shouts at Louis ... then [he] goes back to Saint Cloud ... has a heart attack and dies.” – Spangler (49:20)
• Destruction of Letters: Liselotte burned all of Philippe’s private correspondence, likely to protect reputation and children.

10. Legacy and Interpretation (52:22–53:55, Nuance Window)

• Second Son Dilemma: Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Philippe set the standard for future “spares”: loyal, creative, productive, but always a potential scandal.
• Modern Resonance: His life foreshadows problems faced by second sons in royal families to this day.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Philippe’s Flamboyance:
  “I imagine if I was Philippe, he's frustrated, but he would also be…more flamboyant, would be more theatrical. I mean, I'm fairly... sensing from the sense that you've booked me.” – Tom Allen (17:32)

• On Old French Court Gender Norms:
  “Being in drag then didn't mean what it does now.” – Dr. Jonathan Spangler (21:10)

• On the “Spare” Dynamic:
  “If he did nothing, he was accused of being lazy ... But if he was active in politics or the military, he was accused of being threatening.” – Dr. Jonathan Spangler, Nuance Window (52:27)

• On Legacy:
  “History has remembered this prince as a fop and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times ... A loyal supporter of his brother, Louis XIV, a patron and a collector, and a savvy businessman who laid the foundations for the powerful Orleans dynasty that endured for generations.” – Dr. Jonathan Spangler (53:27)

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Memorable and Entertaining Moments

• Shepherdess Drag:
  • Philippe and La Grande Mademoiselle attended balls as shepherdesses, delighting historians (19:50).
• Infantile Weaponization:
  • Philippe making Henrietta pregnant to keep her away from court social life—a “such a gay thing to do,” Tom Allen quips (26:59).
• Chevalier de Lorraine:
  • This 40-year partnership was so unprecedented that even court gossip was about who dominated whom, not about same-sex love itself (32:13).

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Philippe’s Family and Upbringing: 05:24–14:33
• Civil War and Trauma: 10:13–13:00
• Fashion/Personality/Adolescence: 14:49–21:15
• Marriage, Love, and Rivalries: 23:30–34:53
• Same-Sex Relationships and Attitudes: 28:27–32:13
• Henrietta’s Death and Poison Rumors: 33:43–34:53
• Second Marriage/Liselotte: 35:15–38:53
• Military Victory & Jealousy: 41:00–43:43
• Finances, Art Patronage: 44:10–47:13
• Death, Legacy, and Succession: 48:01–51:35
• Nuance Window (spare dilemma): 52:22–53:55
• Quiz Recap (funny and informative): 55:10–57:27

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Conclusion: Why Philippe d’Orléans Matters

This episode makes a case for recognizing Philippe as more than the "fabulous spare" in Louis XIV’s shadow. He was a nuanced, intelligent figure whose life intersected with critical themes of gender, sexuality, family politics, patronage, and trauma—both conforming to and challenging the roles available to a “second son.” Despite contemporary and historical caricature, Philippe’s importance as a loyal brother, arts patron, lover, and shaper of dynastic fortunes deserves far more attention, as both a queer pioneer and a man who left a legacy vastly bigger than the sum of his scandals.

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For More:

• Dive into Louis XIV’s France via “Versailles” (BBC drama) or episodes on Catherine de Medici, Marie Antoinette, or LGBTQ history (Benedetta Carlini, the Bloomsbury Group).
• Read Liselotte’s letters (available online) for firsthand, often hilarious, perspectives on court life.

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Final Thought:
“Even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position, you can actually make a heck of a lot of what you get up to ... goes to show you can still do something.” – Tom Allen (53:59)

Transcript

[Tom Allen]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are slipping into our ball gowns and sauntering over to 17th century France to learn all about Louis XIV's less famous but more fabulous brother, Philippe, Duke d'. Orleans. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. He's a Senior Lecturer in History at Manchester Metropolitan University, where he specializes in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbors. Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal Courts and is the author of Monsieur Second Sons in the Monarchy of France. It's Dr. Jonathan Spangler. Welcome, Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Hello. Thanks. It's great to be here today.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, he's a top class comedian, writer and presenter. You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows as well as from Bake Off. An extra slice. The Apprentice. You're fired. Maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs, no Shame and Too Much. Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, Like Minded Friends and Pottering, it's Tom Allen. Welcome to the show, Tom.

[Tom Allen]

Well, Greg, thank you for that lovely welcome. I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan, whose speciality is exactly what I'm interested in second sons, in aristocracy across northern Europe, actually. Any kind of aristocratic life, I think, because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. Which is unfortunate considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley. But much to my family and friends. Chagrin. Chagrin. I've often tried to try to pretend I'm an aristocrat and been very quickly knocked down. Maybe that'll change today.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, I mean, you dress beautifully, so I think you certainly. You've certainly passed muster on the looks.

[Tom Allen]

We're going out on the BBC, aren't we?

[Greg Jenner]

We are.

[Tom Allen]

Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation, so I think I would like it if all Radio 4 presenters and announcers still wore a dinner jacket.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. I'm so sorry.

[Tom Allen]

Well, Greg didn't spoil it for the listener, I was going to say. I'm so glad you've stuck to that tradition, Greg.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

I'm in a ball gown.

[Greg Jenner]

Tom, are you a history lover? Do you enjoy history?

[Tom Allen]

I have always loved history. I almost did it at university, but then rather precociously, like a second son of any French aristocrat, decided I didn't need it, so I didn't go. But I nearly. I went to interview at Clare College in Cambridge. Oh, of course, applied there because I thought it was the nicest building, as any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there and did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected, but. And that sort of put me off a bit, and so I think I decided to pursue showbiz instead, which I think probably was the right thing. I'm not that serious. But I love, I love, I love, I love any kind of history and I, like. We've already been talking, actually, Jonathan and I, about favorite historical films and mine being the Madness of King George and mine.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Tom Allen]

It's your favorite?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

It really is.

[Greg Jenner]

It is a brilliant movie. Okay.

[Tom Allen]

Just that attention to detail.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, very much. The best line. Can I go on? Is when Rupert Everett, I think, at the very beginning, says, oh, it appears I'm Bishop of Osnabruck. It's funny what one is.

[Tom Allen]

Yes, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother Louis, King Louis. In the film A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a suave Stani Tucci. In the man in the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio. But my personal fave, of course, is the TV drama Versailles, shown on the BBC, which I got to discuss every week as the co host of BBC2's Inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams. Bonjour. But was Philippe more than just King Louis? Chaotic little brother? What's it like to grow up as the spare? And how long can you really keep a menage a trois going? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Jonathan, let's start at the start. When little Prince Philippe was born, who were his parents? Presumably kings, queens.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes, that's right. So if you're a prince, generally your parents are a king and a queen. And in this case France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis. So his father's name is Louis xii. His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain, but the House of Austria governs in Spain and so that's the way they call her Anne Detritie in French. So Louis and Anne are his parents. He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the 17th century almost. And he had an older brother who was called Louis xiv. Eventually, by the time he's called the Dauphin. One of the things I think we need to put in context right at the very beginning is the fact that Philippe and Louis were both born after over 15 years of marriage for his parents. And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis XIV is born. And so they of course name him Le Dieu d', Honne, which is the God given son.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, how lovely. That's what people said about me, actually.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

It's quite an entrance into the world.

[Greg Jenner]

I think what I was gonna ask, Tom, you have a brother, if your brother had been called the God given son, how would you feel about that?

[Tom Allen]

Well, I am the eldest, actually, so.

[Greg Jenner]

So you're the God given one?

[Tom Allen]

I am the God given one. And I was born after 10 years of my parents.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Oh.

[Tom Allen]

So I'm very similar, obviously.

[Greg Jenner]

Tom, why do you think it took Queen Anne and king Louis XIII 23 years to conceive?

[Tom Allen]

Maybe just not into it. People were busy, you know, you've got hobbies. Well, it's an easy one to say, but was he homosexual? Or maybe they were both homosexual. Or maybe they were both.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, pious is the word historians usually go with.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, yes, or homosexual. There are some who thought that Louis XIII did prefer boys, and there are several long relationships that he has with men of a lower rank. Somebody usually from the stables or a valet de chambre or something.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, it's true. Sounds like a film I once saw.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

But piety is certainly the word. And I think more and more psycho historians have gone and said, well, actually, Louis XIII was just cripplingly pious and couldn't really be in the same room.

[Greg Jenner]

His wife, Jonathan, a psycho historian, is a historian of psychology, not someone with a knife running down the corridors.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right. No, it was a trend. It was one of the historians Trends in the 1970s, 1980s, really, where people were trying to use the new tools of psychology and applying them to historical figures. They were both married when they were 15, so, I mean, to give them a bit of credit, I think they were just probably terrified. So, yeah, it took quite some time. And apparently, according to one story, a nun had to sort of convince him and say, look, this is your job, try to, you know, do this.

[Tom Allen]

How bad are things going if a nun.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And then the kind of popular story that a lot of people repeat again and again is that one night there was a big rainstorm. So Louis XIII was out hunting, passing through Paris from one hunting lodge to another, and couldn't get where he was going, so he stopped in the Louvre, right in the middle of Paris. But nobody knew he was coming, so they hadn't prepared his rooms. So the queen was already there and had a bed, and so he slept with her and voila, nine months later.

[Greg Jenner]

It's quite romantic.

[Tom Allen]

So romantic. Yet something else taken at the Louvre.

[Greg Jenner]

And then Philippe is born after what? They just. They're like, we probably need another one.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, I suppose so. But there is another gossip story there, that there's an Italian adventurer called Giulio Mazzarini who arrives and some people have thought Philippe was maybe his child.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really? So even as the spare young prince, Philippe, you know, the second son, but still a prince, he's having, presumably, a very prestigious upbringing. He's going to be educated to be a king. Or does he get a different education?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, he's being educated to be a king because in the 17th century, infants often died after only a year or two or nine or 10. So Philippe was always called the spare. He was always the next one in line, so he had to be raised the same way. They had a governess, they had tutors, they had horse riding, fencing, military history, military strategy, that sort of thing. At the same time, there was always a bit of a limit in that. Louis XIV was always the first and Philippe always had to defer to him no matter what. So their psychological Relationship was set up from the very, very start.

[Tom Allen]

And when you say defer, what would that have meant on a day to day?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, it would have meant that if Louis XIV stood up, well, let's call him the dauphin, Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up. I mean, that kind of thing. But we also have stories of them being boys and throwing things at each other and, you know, fighting on the floor. And then he's. Philippe is chided because you can't strike your older brother. He is the dauphin of France.

[Greg Jenner]

That's. I mean, can you imagine that?

[Tom Allen]

Mom, I told you.

[Greg Jenner]

Tragedy strikes very young for these two boys. I mean, France is. France loses its king, right? Louis XIII dies. The boys are four. Three, right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So four years old and three years old, the gap is about two altogether. So they're both children and it's the middle of the 17th century. There are wars raging both with Germany and Spain. France has been at war for over 10 years and their mother, Anne of Austria tries to take the reins of government with Cardinal Mazarin by her side. But the old elites, the princes, the dukes, they don't want to have anything of that. They should be running the government as well. So they stage a battle, a civil war called the Fronde in France. And it gets to be so scary that at one point Anne takes the boys and just escapes the countryside to Saint Germain en Laye in the western parts of Paris. So a lot of people who have tried to look at the trauma of these two kids, these boys, see this is a quite dramatic moment in their upbringing, I think, because the front is.

[Greg Jenner]

Happening at the same time as the English Civil War.

[Tom Allen]

Well, I was going to say, was that around about the same time? We're talking the 1640s, aren't we?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, 1648. Exactly the same. So meanwhile in Britain, there's a horrible, violent civil war, but it's happening in France too, right?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And the dates really line up amazingly because just when the parlement and the rebellion is getting really, really strong, Charles I is executed, January of 1649. And that's, I think when the French monarchy says, you know, we gotta really consider what's going on here. And those are their very first cousins.

[Greg Jenner]

And there is a suggestion that the king will be seized, that, you know, Louis will be seized. Philippe falls ill at one point and he gets left behind.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, yeah. So another trauma on top of a trauma. The other character who's revolving around in the background that I think we shouldn't Forget is Louis XIII's younger brother. So there's another generation of all this. Gaston is still alive. Gaston is dashing and lovely. He's one of my favorites. But he is at the head of this rebellion.

[Tom Allen]

And not to put everything into popular culture, but is he the one in the Three Musketeers I'm actually not talking about?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He probably is, yeah.

[Tom Allen]

I'm not thinking of the novel. I'm actually thinking of the movies of the cartoon.

[Greg Jenner]

Are you thinking of Dogtagnion?

[Tom Allen]

Dogtagnion, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

A famous documentary.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. I don't know if that's one that. You're right.

[Greg Jenner]

There is a Gaston, isn't there?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, I'm aware of it, but I haven't seen him.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, it's dubbed in English as well, so.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So in the Three Musketeers stories, Queen Anne is running back and forth with Buckingham and the stolen diamonds and various things like that.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, yes.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And I think Gaston is tied up with that.

[Greg Jenner]

And Mazarin and Richelieu are the sort of chief advisors in those books, aren't they? So, Uncle Gaston. It's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle, even in the 17th century.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. Should we get into that?

[Greg Jenner]

So we've got little Philippe's life, beginning with tragically losing his father, experiencing a civil war, seeing a king of England being beheaded, seeing his brother being sort of hounded by their own uncle. It's quite a lot of drama for a little kid. And I suppose all the while he's having to go to school. Tom, what do you think he's learning at this age? You know, he's no longer a toddler.

[Tom Allen]

He's a bit older, I imagine, at that time very loosely, but I imagine that it's still probably learning about fighting and learning about how to be a good Catholic boy. And probably. Well, I'm always intrigued in how kind of ruling families were conditioned from an early age to be not just in control, but also kind of without fear of being judged. You know, being above judgment must have been kind of an early indoctrination, I guess.

[Greg Jenner]

It's an interesting point. It's the psychological training of power.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, very much so. And I think that's one of the really good things that Philippe does, is Philippe is the only person who can say no to Louis.

[Tom Allen]

Ah, right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And I think that's really important.

[Greg Jenner]

Is Philippe academic? Is he bookish? Is he.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, neither of them are. I think both of them study, both of them read their books. Both of them, especially Louis. The 14th becomes very. I read this in school, therefore it Must be. So that.

[Tom Allen]

That.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

That's his mentality, I think, in a nutshell. Philippe, I think, is a bit more fun, a bit more. Maybe I just am biased, but I like him a lot. But. But they certainly learn, you know, dancing, fencing, horsemanship. Being on a horse is an important part.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Bit of Latin. I mean, we know that Philip's handwriting is dreadful, right?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. I've seen some of his letters. They're basically a bunch of vertical stripes. And apparently there are references for his wife, who we'll get to later having to read his letters back to him because he didn't know what he'd written.

[Greg Jenner]

The one thing we do need to address, and I'm curious whether this is gossip, rumor, there is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl. Now, obviously, boys at this age wear dresses anyway, to the age of five.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Seven.

[Greg Jenner]

Seven. Okay, thank you. You know, Winston Churchill wore a dress until he was roughly that age. But there is this sense that the Queen treats Philippe as her little princess.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. Like you said, the common for all aristocratic boys is to wear a dress until you're breeched, which I think is a fun word. 7. You are breeched and put into trousers, given a male governor rather than a female governess who's been looking after you. But the stories are very much that Anne wanted to keep Philippe less threatening than Uncle Gaston. That's the common story. And so she took him with her on her visits to ladies, to convents, to other women dressed as a girl. And in particular, we have a memoir written by a guy called the Abbe de Choisy. In his memoir, he says, well, I met Philippe all the time when we were kids, and we were always both dressed as girls, and we spent all of our day, you know, putting on diamonds, doing our hair, really having such a great time. So he really liked it. And his story, in its own. Probably should have its own podcast, because he grows up to be an Abbe, and he's head of a church, and he transforms himself, dress by dress, week after week, from a cassock into a ball gown.

[Tom Allen]

It's like a Runway challenge.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And his parishioners don't seem to notice. But there is a caveat, which is that analysts and literary scholars have looked at the Abbe de Choisy's memoirs and have said, well, he was writing in an age when people really liked shocking. You know, they had to sell their books. It's not so different.

[Tom Allen]

Can you imagine a world like that? Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So it's possible that it wasn't true, but we do have later stories of Philippe cross dressing, so. So the idea really is, is that while Gaston's still alive, Philippe needs to be trained how to be different. Because Gaston was involved in civil wars from the 1620s all the way to the 1650s, constantly rebelling. And they thought, well, let's do something different. So later historians, I think 19th century Victorian historians are to blame, said, oh, well, they emasculated him, they made Philippe gay so that he couldn't challenge the throne. And I think that's ridiculous because why would you do that?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, that wouldn't have served them well.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Particularly given that Louis XIV could have died at any moment and then suddenly you are stuck with, oh dear, what have we done?

[Greg Jenner]

He's the backup plan, right? He's the future of France if Louis gets a cold.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So logically, it really doesn't make sense, but I think the Victorians liked that idea.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. How do you imagine Philippe as a teenager? Tom, what were you like as a teenager?

[Tom Allen]

Well, that's a big question, but I can imagine if I was Philippe, he's frustrated, but he would also be. I mean, he's given opportunity to be a bit freer than his older brother, I imagine, so probably would be more flamboyant, would be more theatrical. I mean, I'm fairly. I'm sensing from the sense that you've booked me and yeah, we didn't get.

[Greg Jenner]

Ray Winston for this one.

[Tom Allen]

Danny Dyer didn't want to do this one.

[Greg Jenner]

And.

[Tom Allen]

And so I'm imagining maybe pushing the envelope of fashion and trying out different things and different. He's had a very alternative upbringing in some ways. I guess I'm imagining he would be kind of a theatrical to say the least.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, he's more interested in theater and we'll actually get into that in a bit with. With Moliere, there actually a quite close connection. So he is a bit freer and is a bit different. And I think his character, he's written about as much more energetic, much more fun, much more unpredictable. I think there is the cross dressing stories which do then have some element of truth. But sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough, not, you know, you're supposed to be the second man of France.

[Greg Jenner]

He's fun with his friends, he's having a laugh, but maybe he's not quite growing up fast enough.

[Tom Allen]

It's a tough one though, isn't it, being an understudy like that, always rehearsing for a gig. You're never gonna potentially never Gonna get.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely. And you've spoken there about. You've mentioned cross dressing or so on. I mean, there are stories of him showing up to court in a ball gown.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So one of the best memoirs we have of the time, which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what is La Grande Mademoiselle. Because she was the mademoiselle, but she was the older one, unmarried princess. And her memoirs are hilarious because she thinks she's the most important person in Europe and her memoirs start that way. They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them.

[Tom Allen]

That sort of sense of self importance, I think is so fascinating. In an age when we're encouraged to be quite meek and quite sort of muted, she was anything but. So she's Gaston's daughter, by the way, an Instagram influencer.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So she's Gaston's daughter and she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherdess.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, well, they did together. So they were often paired together to come to balls or dances as potential partners. You know, they may have gotten married, Even though she's 20 years older than he. But yes, she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there's an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses and they sort of parade around.

[Tom Allen]

They seem to love shepherdesses because later on. Marie Antoinette.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right.

[Tom Allen]

Good knowledge. Some like.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Tom Allen]

Thing in the French court. Like, what should we dress that like sort of tarts and vicars party or something.

[Greg Jenner]

It's.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So the upper class dressing as peasants and shepherds is quite funny. Ha ha ha.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, I see. That was the thing they did.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

The ultimate role reversal, isn't it, I suppose. The kind of uberbecolic, low status. The girl with the sheep.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

It's hilarious.

[Greg Jenner]

Unveiling your drag Persona, the shepherdess at your brother's party, if your brother is the king of France. It's quite a bold move, Tom.

[Tom Allen]

Well, but then again, I think, like in an age when they obviously had anything they wanted at their fingertips within the reason, why not? Like, I can imagine that that would be. I don't know how serious the court was, I guess because there's such opulence.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

That's the good next question, I think, because we have to remember that what everybody else was wearing at the time is men were wearing high heel shoes, were wearing lace, were wearing huge bows and giant curled wigs and lots of perfumed costumes. So being in drag then didn't mean what it does Now, Right.

[Tom Allen]

It's interesting to me that we talk about, like, drag or we talk about kind of people. Yeah. Wearing different clothes and then society might expect of them and it creates this uproar. But I kind of do think, well, for a long, long time, particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine. Much more flamboyant than anything anybody would wear today.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, we did an episode on the history of high heel shoes, which were first invented for men and.

[Tom Allen]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

And so, yeah, the history of the gendering of that type of shoe is really interesting. It goes back and forth, you know. But let's talk about Philippe as the spare. Right. So he's the understudy, which is awkward enough, but I suppose he has to be ready. Louis the King does feel he gets very, very unwell in 1658, and there is the possibility he's gonna die.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So this is one of the places where I think people thought Philippe might become like Gaston and would champion a rebellion. A court coup was kind of brewing because Louis X and Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to. There's a whole coterie of people gathering around his bed saying, now's the time, now's the time. And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much. And if Louis had died, of course, Philippe would have become king. But I think right away, it shows that Philippe is of a different character to Uncle Gaston in that he doesn't really want to seize power, but he also does his jobs. He has duties. He goes around occasionally opening convents or cutting ribbons or, you know, it's the same sort of. Royal families then aren't. Aren't that different from today.

[Tom Allen]

And to be seen.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, he has to be seen. He can introduce edicts into parliament, you know, he can do. If Louis is not available to do something clerical, Philippe can do it. So he does have a job. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So he can do sort of minor. Minor things, minor ruling duties, you know. But obviously, in 1661, King Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare, immediately he's no longer needed. Right, right. He's now the understudy to the understudy.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's kind of. He's had the Uncle Gaston treatment.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. He's been Gaston'd.

[Greg Jenner]

He's been Gaston'd.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, for somebody who's flamboyant, I imagine that was quite wounding.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

I think so. But on the other hand, he was able to focus in another direction.

[Tom Allen]

I do get the sense he's got a lot of directions.

[Greg Jenner]

We haven't really mentioned romance and we haven't mentioned the obvious thing of surely a prince of the royal blood needs to marry someone so that, you know, you can start churning out kids as well. So, I mean, you mentioned the shepherdess. Does that work out?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So, yeah, there is a plan to marry monsieur with la grande mademoiselle because she has the largest fortune in Europe.

[Tom Allen]

Oh. So she is important.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

She has vastly wealth, and so it makes much more sense to just keep that in the family. And there is another cutting line from her where she says, having seen what he is like, I think I'd rather marry no one at all.

[Tom Allen]

No, I thought they were great friends.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, no, they were great friends, but, I mean, she's a smart woman and she realizes that his interests already are not in women.

[Greg Jenner]

So the shepherd love interest doesn't quite work out, which is a shame because Little Bo. Pip would have been his drag name.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, that would have been. You've been thinking of that for a long time.

[Greg Jenner]

Literally five minutes I've been thinking, how do I squeeze this in?

[Tom Allen]

I thought you'd gone quiet for a moment there, and you were just waiting for that moment, weren't you?

[Greg Jenner]

All right, so Philippe does marry.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. So Louis XIV has married to end war, as you often do if you're royal. And he marries the Infanta of Spain, Marie Therese arrives and they then have a Dauphin. And in 1660. 1661, France needed a new ally across the Channel. So Louis XIV looked to his cousin, Charles ii, who was the king of England and Scotland, and he arranges a marriage with Charles's sister, who's called Henrietta Anne, or Henriette in French.

[Greg Jenner]

So Philippe marries Henriette and is she happy about this? Is he happy about this?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

I think for both of them at first, it's kind of a relief because they've grown up together, they know each other very, very well, they know what each other's like. But I think the trouble does start almost immediately because she is very energetic and flamboyant and loves fashion and loves dresses.

[Tom Allen]

Uh. Oh, yeah, that's my thing.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Exactly.

[Tom Allen]

So.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So they clash almost immediately.

[Tom Allen]

Those are my shoes.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Because he wants to. He wants to shine at the ball.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, no, she wants to shine at the ball. This is a nightmare.

[Greg Jenner]

They've both got walk in closets and they're filled with gout. I mean, the other thing we should say, actually, he has been promoted. He's now a duke at this point because Gaston has died.

[Tom Allen]

Uncle Gaston.

[Greg Jenner]

Has gone, which means his title is up for grabs. And King Louis says, all right, you get to be the Duke of Orleans.

[Tom Allen]

And Uncle Gaston didn't have any kids.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He does, but they're all girls.

[Tom Allen]

Ah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

You can't pass on a duke into a girl.

[Tom Allen]

Very convenient.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So Philippe is now the Duke d', Orleans. Henriette is now the Duchess of Orleans. So Mr. And Mrs. Orleans, whatever the rules are. So they're married. And I mean, Philippe and Louis. Dad took 23 years to have kids. We know Philippe prefers men. So do they have kids?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, right away.

[Tom Allen]

Do they?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So much to everybody's surprise, probably they have a daughter called Marie Louise right away. And then there's a boy who doesn't live very long called the Duke of Valois and another girl a bit later called Marie Anne. So they do have children. And this, I think, is probably the most vicious part of Phillipe's story that I read about when I was studying all these things is that if Henriette was outshining him at court, he had a weapon at his disposal, which was making her pregnant.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, my.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Isn't that awful? So if she wanted to be at court, you want to be there at the winter, because the winter's when all the balls are. And so he would make her pregnant right in time so that she couldn't be there in the winter and had to go to the country house.

[Tom Allen]

That is such a gay thing to do.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

It's quite a sort of jealous move, isn't it, to scupper your wife?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And you can use the Bible to support it and say, I'm the husband. It's my right to make you pregnant whenever I want.

[Tom Allen]

True crime meets history with a twist.

[Greg Jenner]

In a new series of lady Killers. Join me as we travel back in time to investigate the most astonishing lady killers of the 19th and 20th centuries. We visit the scene of the crime.

[Tom Allen]

And we delve into deep into their.

[Greg Jenner]

Lives to ask, how did they do it? Why did they do it? What drove them to it? Watch Lady Killers with Lucy Worsley on.

[Tom Allen]

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[Greg Jenner]

So we get the scent. Henriette and Philippe. There's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jealousies. She cheats on him.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So we can go back to La grande Mademoiselle, who is a great source of information here. She's writing, writing, writing. And there's a guy called the Comte de Guiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in.

[Tom Allen]

Comte de Quiche de la Rein.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And Guiche is very violent and very. I think he's a top. And Philippe, I think, likes that. I mean, there's. There's stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Gish, which are a little weird. But Henriette sweeps in and takes him as her boyfriend. So, yeah, the tension mounts constantly.

[Greg Jenner]

So they're sharing a lover?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Not really, because Guiche, well, we don't really know, but I think he goes from him to her.

[Tom Allen]

Was again, I suppose, in our actually quite prudish post Victorian age, we don't really acknowledge that. I think love, free love, if you like, was. Was quite. Was much more the case in, in aristocratic circles. Is that fair to say that?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. And it comes and goes. So the 1660s, which is the decade we're in now, is very fun. Festivals, parties, drinking.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

They're all in their 20s.

[Greg Jenner]

The invention of champagne.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So Louis, his wife, Philippe, his wife, they're all in their 20s, they're having a really good time.

[Tom Allen]

And the idea of, I suppose, labeling is also not really happening there, that people aren't coming out.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right. So there was no concept really of homosexual. There was no concept of an identity that you would choose or not choose.

[Tom Allen]

Right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

A lot of it was just down to practice. What did you do? Yes, and of course, you know, there's always the Greek education and boys are meant to shag for a little while and then you eventually marry and have children. So putting a label on it is difficult. And I think a lot of things were much more fluid. And you could be married, but also having sex with a man on the side. And I don't think people really cared.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, I was gonna say.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Or they did care. And I think we should be clear to say this is, like you said, a very upper class thing. So middle class people, they're tutting away.

[Tom Allen]

Yes.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

The job is almost always, if you can Keep this inside the court, that's fine. But once the general population of France starts talking about it, then you have to stop. Okay, so people like Guiche are sent away.

[Tom Allen]

Have your quiche. Have your quiche and eat it.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, we go from quiche to Lorraine because actually the next man is the Chevalier de Lorraine.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, my goodness. On ITV at 9am every day.

[Greg Jenner]

Have you ever heard of the Chevalier de Lorraine?

[Tom Allen]

The Horseman of Lorraine? No.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the Knight of Lorraine.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, the knight. Oh, yeah. Is that right? Yeah, No, I haven't actually, as I say, only his quiche.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a delightful quiche. Very nice. I mean, Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say, is Philippe's great love.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes, other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years.

[Tom Allen]

Really?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. Which I've never found an example like that in the 17th century of two men together like that. From everything I've read, people didn't mind that Philippe was having a boyfriend. What they didn't like was that he was being dominated because a prince, which is what I think the TV show Versailles got wrong, by the way. And so the Chevalier de Lorraine is a great character because he was good looking, he was charming, he was from a really old family, the oldest family in Europe, but he had no money at all, so he was totally dependent on Philippe. And they had this romantic made up. I think they'd known each other since boys because their mothers were great friends. But finally they're both sent off to war together in 1667. The chevalier gets wounded, Philippe nurses him back to health and it's very romantic, very sweet story. And then they're together for the next 40 years.

[Greg Jenner]

A 40 year relationship in some regards. Lovely, beautiful, wonderful. In other ways, he is married. How do you think Henriette, his wife, dealt with? Yeah, I know you did, yeah. How do you think she dealt with the Chevalier? How do you think she handled him?

[Tom Allen]

Wasn't. But she's still. Isn't she off with. What's his name?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Quiche.

[Tom Allen]

Quiche, yeah. She's having her quiche and eating it. She's so she's. Is he, is he still knocking around with her?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

No, they've sent him off to the front.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, God.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Once it got too scandalous, he had to be sent away.

[Greg Jenner]

Sent off to war to hopefully get shot. Hopefully, you know.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. Oh, so imagine she's furious then.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes, she's furious. And Chevalier and Henriette don't get along and they're always throwing barbs at Each other. But then the interesting twist comes along when she decides, really, that she wants to be a lot more politically active, which is unusual for a woman at the time, but if you've got the talent for it. And she did. And so Louis XIV needed more allies, so he sent her off to England to meet with her brother. And Henriette and Charles have a tete. A tete in Dover. They sign a treaty. A secret treaty. Right? Secret treaty. Well, parts of it are secret. Yeah. The Treaty of Dover. I mean, it's scandalous when it's revealed that Charles II basically says, I will take a massive bribe and become a Catholic.

[Tom Allen]

No, really, that's.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Really. That's why it was a secret.

[Tom Allen]

Big secret.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, big secret.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, wow. I didn't know he became.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, he didn't because his ministers found out.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, Big ish there.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Heads rolled. Henriette, or Henriette, was triumphant. She had succeeded in really changing the alliances in Europe. She comes back to France in triumph. Everyone is saying what a great job she's had. And this is June of 1670. She suddenly becomes very sick after drinking chicory, which is sort of like hot chocolate, and dies very soon after.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, no.

[Greg Jenner]

Was he poisoned?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, so she said, I'm poisoned, I'm poisoned. As people were gathering around her.

[Tom Allen]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

And so everyone presumably pointed a finger at Philippe.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Or the Chevalier.

[Greg Jenner]

Or the Chevalier. Right. Because she. I mean, she'd had a word with her brother and the Chevalier had been.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Turfed out for a bit, not in the country. So I don't think he poisoned her unless it was very complicated. He was in Rome. So Louis XIV thought that the Chevalier was too embarrassing in terms of global politics, and he wanted this alliance with England. And Charles II was saying, well, you've got to get rid of that guy.

[Greg Jenner]

So they did.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Because of the scandal.

[Tom Allen]

Because of the scandal, yeah. The idea that this debauched gay couple.

[Greg Jenner]

Were coming across the water. So Henriette tragically died, the Chevalier de Lorraine returned.

[Tom Allen]

I bet he did.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Tom Allen]

Straight on his horse, shows up for funeral. Yeah, I bet. Just the outfit, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And so, you know, we have now Philippe, the father of children, no longer married, with a stable boyfriend. There's no real reason for him to remarry.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Not necessarily, no. But Louis XIV only has one son. And even though the Dauphin is now 10, he still could die.

[Tom Allen]

Chicory happens.

[Greg Jenner]

Chicory happens.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And Louis XIV needs new allies. England turned out to not be a good ally at all. And so he looks to Germany and the German princely states. He can't marry Habsburg, cause they're the enemy. Who's second best? There's a state called the Palatinate which controls the middle Rhine. And so Louis XIV gets a girl from the Palatinate who is a wonderful character who we'll talk about a bit more now, called Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate. We call her Liselotte, which is not really correct, it's what the Germans say, Lizzie with a Z. Lizzie with a Z. She's called Madame Palatine by the French.

[Greg Jenner]

So she marries in from Germany, which means presumably she's a Protestant.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes, she is.

[Greg Jenner]

So this is all quite awkward, right, because the Catholic royal family of France are marrying a Protestant princess.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. But France being France and being the most powerful dynasty in Europe, the Bourbons, they can demand a lot.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And so the Elector Palatine pretends that he doesn't know about the marriage. It's really, he actually releases a statement that says, oh my goodness, my daughter has gotten married and I know nothing about it. And she travels to the frontier, she goes to Metz and within one day she does catechism, she renounces heresy, she becomes a Catholic. All in one day in a crash course. Yeah, crash course. So by the end of the day she's a good Catholic girl and they get married.

[Greg Jenner]

Lisa Lotta is a fantastically enjoyable character. Her letters are incredible. They're so funny. She herself, how does she describe herself? Jonathan?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So we are so lucky as historians that she left behind thousands of letters almost every day. She wrote letters to relatives either in England or in Germany and they are hilariously funny. She puts a good foot forward at beginning. She loves hunting. Louis XIV loves hunting. They become really close right away. Let Philippe do his decorating at home.

[Tom Allen]

Yes, he's got things to. He's got a watercolor class to do.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And they have children. So at the first the marriage is going well, but she then gets larger and she herself in her letters says, oh, I've become very broad. And she even has a very funny letter where she says, you know, I've always made fun of my ugliness. Quote, my father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me badger nose and I laughed even harder.

[Tom Allen]

I mean, bless her, she sounds like a lot of fun.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

I have a lot of time for.

[Tom Allen]

Her and yes, it's quite self deprecating.

[Greg Jenner]

Then her kind of healthcare regime is great.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, that's really interesting to think of. It's very German.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So she's seeing that there are these royal and aristocratic children dying basically because French medicine is so weird. And so she says, nope, we need open windows, we need healthy fresh air. Crazy ideas like that.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, like Ronce Nightingale does.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's way ahead of time and.

[Greg Jenner]

She does a five mile walk every day in wind and rain. And she's sort of out there physical, you know, strong and hilariously funny. Her letters are fantastic. I think they're digitized. I'm not sure if they're.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, there's lots of different collections.

[Greg Jenner]

She's an absolute hoot. Lies a lotta.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

The most famous one maybe is about farting.

[Greg Jenner]

Very quickly, if you can.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, it's one of the etiquette moments where they're standing waiting for the king to walk into a room and two of her children fart. And then the father says, well, I can make music better than that. And he farts. And then Madame says, well. And she. And out farts them all.

[Greg Jenner]

She's Cecilia Emory.

[Tom Allen]

God, they had those windows open.

[Greg Jenner]

She was a fan of that. But we must talk about the Chevalier again because he came back into the.

[Tom Allen]

Picture, not leave the picture, will he?

[Greg Jenner]

He's not getting the memo. And 1672, he's back in the life and he, he sort of, you know, ruins the honeymoon period with lies a lotta.

[Tom Allen]

I bet he absolutely hates poor old lta. Yeah, maybe she sounds like she's funnier than him, which gays hate.

[Greg Jenner]

They suffer tragedy, the couple. Right. They lose a child.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So there is another boy that's born, but he only lives a year or so. And so they do suffer this tragedy which brings them together. And I think throughout all of it, even if he has this boyfriend and other boyfriends, they do feel like a really good couple for the rest of their lives. So it's a very strange kind of three way relationship. And they raise their children together and they're very, very proud of their children. Two more daughters? No, sorry, one more daughter. But then once the child rearing age kind of passes, I think the Chevalier decides now is my time again and I want to be really the head of this household.

[Tom Allen]

Really.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Tom Allen]

So he's quite ambitious.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He is very ambitious. And all the commentators say he runs Philippe's household, which is quite a lot of people, two or three hundred people, art collections. We haven't talked so much about these two houses. There's the Palais Royal in Paris and then there's a palace called Saint Cloud on the outskirts of Paris which is just as grand as Versailles. It has its own gilded chambers, its own hall of mirrors, spectacular gardens, amazing fountains and he's in charge, in a way, of all that.

[Tom Allen]

I bet he is.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

The children, we should mention their names. It's another Philippe. Little Philippe, Duke de Chartres and Elizabeth. Charlotte. Or Charlotte. So after 1677, their relationship is struggling, but we need to talk about something that might be a little surprising. We've talked about Philippe as a man of great flair and theater and culture and LAUGHTER.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, my goodness. Have we? Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

He's also a great warrior. Warrior or warrior? Oh, that's a good point. I mean, technically, probably a bit of both, but warrior, Warrior.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, he's a good fighter.

[Greg Jenner]

He's a good fighter. He's a lover and a fighter, Tom.

[Tom Allen]

A lover and a fighter. Goodness me. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

He goes to war.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. So that's one of the very interesting shocks of the life, is that they go to war. It's boringly called the Dutch War, in the middle of the 1670s. And Philippe has been sent off before, but usually as a sort of observer, or maybe he does a diversionary tactic one day and makes sure that Louis gets the glory. But at one point in 1677, he's in Flanders on his own and the King isn't there, and it's a small village called Cassel. And our good friend William iii, who's also in favor of boys.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. They face each other on the battlefield and surprise, surprise, Philippe trounces him.

[Greg Jenner]

So William III would, of course, be King William of England.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right, right. Not yet.

[Greg Jenner]

Not yet.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So in 1677, he's the stadtholder of the Netherlands, he's the Prince of Orange.

[Greg Jenner]

But he will be William, as in William and mary.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right. In 10 years time, he will become William and Mary in this country.

[Greg Jenner]

So Philip wins a huge victory at the Battle of Cassel. But do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle?

[Tom Allen]

His nails almost.

[Greg Jenner]

He was adjusting his wig. The battle had started, his men were fighting and he was still in his tent. Oh.

[Tom Allen]

Which I absolutely respect. And I think the men would have respected him for that as well.

[Greg Jenner]

You can't go to battle, you know, with a loose fringe.

[Tom Allen]

Absolutely, yes. And what would the wigs have been? I'm thinking they're dark, they're sort of brunette at this point, and quite long. Quite long.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Long in curls.

[Greg Jenner]

But this is Phillipe's shining military moment and he gets back to Paris, back to Versailles, and his brother the King says basically nothing.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Oh, no.

[Tom Allen]

After all he did for him, it.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Was a very frigid moment and we have A memoir later, who says, the king supposedly said, I would have really, really given millions to have won a battle. Because Louis XIV's never actually won a battle.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's jealous.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He's very jealous. And guess what happens after that?

[Tom Allen]

They go to battle with each other.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Good guess, though. I mean, that's the obvious thing.

[Tom Allen]

Not a lot of jewels.

[Greg Jenner]

Luckily, the love wins out, I suppose they never go to war with each other. But Louis strips him of military command. Right, Right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So I think in the history of their relationship between the brothers Louis and Philippe, this is really the high point of Louis being a really, I think, awful brother to Philippe and not treating him very well. And that carries on then for the next decade, he doesn't give him another command ever again. Cause I think he's embarrassed. And he doesn't like little brother having done so well in battle.

[Greg Jenner]

Cause Philippe had been, you know, he'd been shot, the bullet had bounced off his armor, his horse had been killed. Like, he's fighting in the middle of this. You know, he's not at the back, you know, adjusting his wig. The whole time he's there, he's in the. In the firing line. And so Louis is like, screw you.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And that ends his military. Ends his military career.

[Tom Allen]

And so at that time, kings were still going into battle. They weren't expected to be a figurehead.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

At the back, more or less. I mean, it's already moving towards that. You're right. Yes. So Louis XIV does go to battle, but generally stands on the white horse, poses for the painter, and then leaves.

[Greg Jenner]

So Louis XIV is the Sun King. And the sun shines very brightly. And Philippe is often in his shadow.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Literally. Right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. And he has to be.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So what do you think Philippe does to find a new path to independence from his brother? What's his new career move?

[Tom Allen]

Musicals or.

[Greg Jenner]

Crypto?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, crypto's big.

[Greg Jenner]

He sort of goes into finance and business and.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He.

[Greg Jenner]

He's suddenly very good with his pennies.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So the other rather surprising turn, you might say, for someone who was so frivolous in his 20s, now he's in his 30s and 40s. He develops his lands, his appanage, and he builds a canal. He builds agricultural systems. He makes the land that he's been given profitable, doubles its income. And then he gets a big windfall because guess what? La grande mademoiselle dies. Oh. Still unmarried. And he gets it all.

[Greg Jenner]

Really.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, so she did like him in the end.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, yeah. She gives him all the money, and it's not tied to the crown the way his other money is. So he becomes financially independent.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, so it's his private wealth.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Private money.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, lovely.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

That's hugely different.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, my. So what did he. What did he buy?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, they already had the house.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. The mortgage paid off.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Saint Cloud becomes even more amazing. Sadly, none of it's left.

[Tom Allen]

What do you mean? Oh, it all was.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. It was destroyed in the 1870s.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really? So post French Revolution Franco Prussian War. Okay, so we've got Philippe now as the sort of business mogul.

[Tom Allen]

Heaven.

[Greg Jenner]

Still married to Lisa Lotta, of course.

[Tom Allen]

Lisa with a Z. And Lisa Lotta. Lisa Load, sir, now. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So. And Chevalier's still knocking about in the background. Yeah, yeah. So the three of them.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, my God, there's three of us in this marriage.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes.

[Tom Allen]

My word. Yes, there is.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And by the 1680s or 90s, they do sort of have a modus operandi. They do kind of live together. It works happily.

[Greg Jenner]

They've sort of found a way of existing together at times.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

She's most interested in her letter writing and her dogs.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, fair enough. Understand that. What does he do all day?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

They still go to parties.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, okay. They still. They still living it up.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Eat a lot.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Tom Allen]

Okay. They're berry at this point.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And you mentioned Moliere, So Moliere, for those who don't know Moliere, is the great comic playwright of 17th century France. He's sort of France's Shakespeare. He's fantastically funny. And he comes to work for. Not the king, but.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

But Philippe. Philippe, yeah. So Philippe is given as his first residence the Palais Royale, which is right in the center of Paris. It's right across the street from the Louvre. And they build a theater in the Palais Royale.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, man.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And Moliere and his troupe actually live there and they do plays there. And it's called the Troupe de Monsieur. And so Moliere is Philippe's guy. He also has his own composer, his own painters, his own architects, often people that are out of favor with Louis xiv. So he's sort of the protector, I think, of artists who are not necessarily doing mainstream art. Philippe's much more interested in Chinese art long before anybody else is.

[Tom Allen]

That didn't come in in England until.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

This year, about 18, 20 or 30 years later. Philippe's already doing it. So I think he's become a bit of an avant garde collector patron with his artists, with his musicians and with his. This Chinese porcelains. Lacquers.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's a collector. Of interesting people and of interesting, beautiful things. Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

There's even a tour pamphlet, a tour guide booklet that comes out in 1689 that says if you're in Paris, you should go to the Palais Royale and visit Philippe's art collection.

[Tom Allen]

So, if anything, he's kind of got the best gig of all, having lost out on it originally.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And Louis never comes to Paris. He doesn't like Paris. He hates it.

[Tom Allen]

Just stays in Versailles.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He stays at Versailles and Philippe is in Paris having parties, collecting art.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, my God. His driver has been furious. Can you imagine?

[Greg Jenner]

So Philippe, by this point was a brother, a father, a husband and a grandfather. His kids have kids. So he's, you know. Does that mean he sort of mellows and, you know, at the end of his life is very. You know, he's doing the crossword and just walking the dogs and. And, you know. Or is it. Is it still quite.

[Tom Allen]

It's very classic, the older gay couple that does at least open an antique shop.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, it's interesting. His son's marriage is complicated. The Duke de Chartres. That's a tricky one, right?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So the son who does live, is called Philippe and he's called the Duke of Chartres. He suffers somewhat from his father's dismissal from the army, basically, and as he gets older, he also wants a military career, and Louis XIV just won't give it to him because he's afraid of outshining the dauphin, his own son, who turns out to be a bit dull. The dauphin is sort of described as fat and indolent and doesn't really shine in any way, whereas Chartres is smart and talented, and so he's kept.

[Tom Allen]

That side of the family is doing really well. Yes, it's a problem against all the arts.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So this is where the conflict comes back in and Philippe and Louis fight a lot. About Louis lack of promotion of Shart.

[Greg Jenner]

Tom, given all, you know now about Philippe, how do you think he died? What do you think did him in the end?

[Tom Allen]

Ham sandwich.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Like Mama Cass?

[Tom Allen]

Yes, exactly. Or fell over, tripped up on one of his antiques.

[Greg Jenner]

No, it's quite sad. He had a big argument with Louis and the stress kills him. Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, that's one of the stories. Some people say maybe not, but it seems at least it contributed to it, because in the 1690s, he ate a lot and he sat around a lot and he gets redder and redder in the face. And there is a story that he goes to Versailles and argues with Louis about Chartres not giving. Being given a job, and then he's so angry and shouts at Louis, which is incredible if you think about it. Shouting at Louis. Nobody does that.

[Greg Jenner]

The most powerful man in Europe at this point, Louis XIV is unbelievably powerful.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And then goes back to Saint Cloud, his house has a heart attack and diesel. What we know about the death of Philippe is that the king can't be present. So he had left and gone back to Versailles. And Philippe dies at Saint Cloud. And the first thing that his wife does, as she later tells us, she walks straight into his rooms and burns all of his private letters, which are mostly from his male favorites, because that.

[Tom Allen]

Would have created further scandal for the children, presumably.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, yes. Is she protecting Philippe or is she protecting Petit Philippe herself? It's an interesting question. Right. Because obviously Queen Victoria's letters were edited and destroyed by her daughter, so. Oh, were they? Yeah, we don't have many of her love letters, you know, we know there's a big chunk missing, so that's why.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

My PhD shifted directions.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Because I was planning to do my PhD just on him and then I realized all of his letters were gone, so.

[Greg Jenner]

And when Louis XIV finally dies, it's his five year old great grandson who becomes the next King of France. So Louis been on the throne for so long, his great grandson is taken over. So it's extraordinary. Kind of two brothers just occupying power for a long time.

[Tom Allen]

Long time, yeah. And his great grandson, is that because the son and the grandson have died?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, that's right, yeah. So smallpox is a real Decimator. And 1710, 1711, the Dauphin and the Petit Dauphin die.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. But Philippe's son, the Duke de Chartres, does become the Regent of France.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He becomes the Duke of Orleans. So he succeeds his father in the Orleans title and becomes Regent of France, and a really good one too, for about 10 years. The other thing that happened right after Philippe died was that his son, who's the new Duke of Orleans, offered the Chevalier de Lorraine use of his apartments in the Palais Royal for as long as he wanted. And so he did live there happily not being turfed out. But he then died as well, a year later.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Tom, have we convinced you the Duke Philippe deserves his podcast?

[Tom Allen]

Oh, yes, I'm sure he would be very pleased to know that we are commemorating him here, but I feel like, given what we've learned, he probably would expect a little bit more. I think something more like an opera.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

What a great idea.

[Greg Jenner]

A bit more razzmatazz.

[Tom Allen]

Yes. I feel like someone like Rufus Wainwright would be penning it right now, the nuance window.

[Greg Jenner]

But it's the time now for the nuance window. This is where Tom and I sit quietly to plan our masquerade costumes. I'm going. Shepherdess, how about you for two minutes while Jonathan holds court and tells us something we need to know about Philippe, Duke d'. Orleans. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr. Jonathan. Okay.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Thank you. What we've been talking about today in a nutshell, really. Every royal dynasty in history has been faced with a similar conundrum. If you have too many heirs and you cause infighting over the succession, but if you have too few heirs, then your dynasty could go extinct. So you have an heir and a spare, which is good practice, but you then need to give the spare something to do. Otherwise, he. And in France, it's always a He could go rogue and try to carve out a niche for himself, potentially challenging the power of the older brother, the king. Philippe d' Orleans found himself in this position. If he did nothing, he was accused of being lazy and unworthy of his princely title. But if he was active in politics or the military, he was accused of being threatening. And so it was a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. So Philippe chose a different path to some of his more aggressive predecessors. He was fiercely loyal to the king and focused his energies away from politics and more into patronage of the arts, building up his palaces, his gardens, and generally being an additional ornament to the French monarchy. He did his duty in marrying to advance France's diplomatic affairs and in producing extra heirs for the Bourbon dynasty. But he also was a source of potential scandal and disrepute for the French monarchy in his fairly open affairs with men. History has remembered this prince as a fop and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times. A loyal supporter of his brother, Louis xiv, a patron and a collector, and a savvy businessman who laid the foundations for the powerful Orleans dynasty that endured for generations.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much, Tom. Final thoughts on Philippe, I suppose.

[Tom Allen]

What an inspiring person to teach you that even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position, you can actually make a heck of a lot of what you get up to. I mean, it helps, of course, if you are the second son of the most powerful dynasty in Europe at the time. But that aside, goes to show you can still do something. My advice is. Bianca, that's good advice. Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Or inherit your spinster cousin's vast fortune.

[Tom Allen]

It really helps if you've Got a spinster cousin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, absolutely.

[Tom Allen]

Richest woman in Europe.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Make sure to be a Nepo prince with a very connected family, but as you say, a really interesting person because he sort of defies expectations at quite a lot of the moments in that life story, isn't it? When people want him to sort of challenge his brother. He doesn't. It's intriguing.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He's, you know, and he sets the standard for how second sons are then for most of the 18th century.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And the second son problem is something we have seen all the way through the 20th century with the British royal family. Right. There are tensions there and I won't say any more. So what do you know now? Okay, well, it is time now for the so what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Tom to see how much you've learned today. Tom, are you a confident quizzer?

[Tom Allen]

Well, I am, but then I've done pub quizzes and I can't get anything right, so I don't know, I like to think I retain knowledge, but maybe I.

[Greg Jenner]

We've had a nice chat today, I think.

[Tom Allen]

Well, it's just, you know, what I love about history is the fact that it teaches you the things, but then it fires synapses.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

I.

[Tom Allen]

What about that? And where does that fit there? And how does that connect with that? And I suppose that means that that time was a bit like xyz, and.

[Greg Jenner]

You did that very well. You were very good at connecting it to other history.

[Tom Allen]

So I was kind of doing that to try and impress you both.

[Greg Jenner]

I feel very impressed, but I'm sure.

[Tom Allen]

It'Ll be very tedious for the listeners. I'm sorry.

[Greg Jenner]

Not at all. Okay, well, I've got 10 questions for you and these are all things we've discussed today, so let's see how you go. Okay. Question one. Who was Philippe's more famous older brother?

[Tom Allen]

King Louis xiv.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely an easy one to start with. Question two. What shocking costume did Philippe wear to a ball in 1659? A shepherdess. Yeah. Question three. With whom did Philippe begin a 40 year affair in 1667?

[Tom Allen]

Chevalier.

[Greg Jenner]

It was the Chevalier de Lorraine. Question four. What was the name of Philippe's problematic uncle?

[Tom Allen]

Gaston?

[Greg Jenner]

It was Gaston. Question 5. Name one of Philippe's two wives.

[Tom Allen]

Henrietta.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. Henriette and Liselotta. Question 6. Which battle did Philippe win against the Dutch in 1677?

[Tom Allen]

The batt of the Dutch. It begins with C. Oh, Castile, Cassel, Castel.

[Greg Jenner]

I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Question 7. How did Louis respond to Philippe's success.

[Tom Allen]

At Cassel by doing nothing? He just ignored it. And then stripped him of his future military title.

[Greg Jenner]

Jealous brother behavior.

[Tom Allen]

Did he let his son even become a Duke of Chartres?

[Greg Jenner]

That's right, yeah. Question eight, how did Philippe gain some independence from his brother all the same?

[Tom Allen]

Well, he farmed better and so made more money that way, but then inherited his farmer. That's it. Farmer Phil.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. That's quite a different vibe for him, isn't it?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. It happens, though, with a lot of gays. You know, when they get older, they like to get into, like, country file and gardening and things.

[Greg Jenner]

Why not? Question 9. What was Philippe allegedly doing right before he had a fatal stroke or heart attack?

[Tom Allen]

Arguing with his brother.

[Greg Jenner]

He was. And this for a perfect 10 out of 10. What did Liselotta burn immediately after Philippe's death?

[Tom Allen]

His emails. I mean letters.

[Greg Jenner]

His emails. A flawless run, Tom. Never in doubt. 10 out of 10. Well done.

[Tom Allen]

Well, I'm very proud of myself. It was qu. Quite nervous about that. How have other people done? How did Nish Kumar do? Nish did well, but I think. Did he get 10?

[Greg Jenner]

He might have got. I think he might have got 10.

[Tom Allen]

Damn it.

[Greg Jenner]

He got 11 out of 10, apparently, I'm told.

[Tom Allen]

I'm sure he did.

[Greg Jenner]

He got 10 out of 11 with a bonus question.

[Tom Allen]

I didn't rely on any notes. I want to point out, as well.

[Greg Jenner]

You have a blank page.

[Tom Allen]

All I wrote down was Lisa Lotta. And that wasn't even the answer I gave. And, yeah, she would have enjoyed that. She loved letters. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, well done. Cause most of the comedians who come on are making extensive notes, whereas you've done that entirely from your brain power.

[Tom Allen]

Well, they're probably thickos.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Tom, for coming on. An absolute pleasure. Thank you, Dr. Jonathan Listener. If you want more fascinating French royals, check out our episodes on Catherine de Medici or Marie Antoinette. For more LGBTQ history, listen to our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy sexy nun. And of course, the Bloomsbury Group with Susie Ruffle, your friend, Tom. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to your Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say, of course, a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner from Manchester Metropolitan University. We have the superb Dr. Jonathan Spangler. Thank you, Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Thank you very much. It's been fun, has been fun.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner we have the terrific Tom Allen. Nasi beaucoup Tom Durian. Beautifully done. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we give another spare from history the attention they deserve. But for now I'm off to go and buy a shepherdess costume and Open week. Bye. You're dead to me is a BBC studios audio production for BBC radio 4. This episode was researched by emma mitchell. It was written by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, Dr. Emma nagos and me. The audio producer was steve hanke and our production coordinator was jill huggett. It was produced by Dr. Emmy rose price goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma nagus. Our executive editor was philip sellers.

[Tom Allen]

Hello, I'm Robin Inch. Sat next to me is Brian Cox. But I don't want him saying anything yet because I am so excited by our new series of Infinite Monkey Cage where we're talking about timekeeping, brain computer interfaces, fusion, we're talking about the romantic and sexual behavior of monkeys and clouds. But most importantly, Brian, what else are we talking about?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Eels.

[Tom Allen]

We are, aren't we? Eels is one of the most fascinating programs, if not the most fascinating.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Fascinating Eels. I don't really want to talk about anything else, to be honest.

[Tom Allen]

So basically there's a new series of Infinite Monk Cage, but on Brian Cox's advice, don't listen to any of them. Apart from the episode about Eels. It's because we don't know much about them. Don't tell them that. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

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