Philippe, Duc d’Orléans (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me: Philippe, Duc d’Orléans (Radio Edit)

Podcast: BBC Radio 4
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Jonathan Spangler (historian), Tom Allen (comedian)
Date: May 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode throws open the extravagant doors of 17th-century France to explore the life of Philippe, Duc d’Orléans—Louis XIV’s dazzling, controversial, and often overlooked younger brother. Host Greg Jenner is joined by comedian Tom Allen and historian Dr. Jonathan Spangler to dissect the complicated roles and vibrant personal life of the “spare” prince. Through light-hearted banter and sharp historical insight, the episode reveals how Philippe embraced his role on the periphery of power—flamboyantly navigating court politics, defying expectations, and laying the groundwork for future generations of royals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Panel and the Subject

• Greg Jenner opens by setting the scene for 17th-century France, introducing Philippe d’Orléans as Louis XIV's lesser-known but much more fabulous brother (01:37).
• Tom Allen expresses his fascination with aristocratic life, humorously lamenting his comprehensive school education and lack of blue blood (02:41–03:19).
• Dr. Jonathan Spangler is introduced as the academic expert on second sons and French aristocracy.

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2. Early Life and Family Ties

• Birth and Parentage: Philippe was born in 1640 to King Louis XIII and Anne of Austria (who, despite her title, was Spanish royalty) (05:18).
  • “France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (05:21)
• Sibling Dynamics: Raised alongside elder brother Louis XIV, Philippe was the ‘spare’; his upbringing was prestigious but always subordinate (06:13).
  • “Their psychological relationship was set up from the very, very start.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (06:24)
• Childhood Loss: The brothers lost their father, Louis XIII, at a very young age, thrust into a turbulent period (07:28).

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3. Court Intrigue and Social Expectations

• Civil War - The Fronde: Arising tension saw the regency of Anne (mother) challenged, with Uncle Gaston (Louis XIII's brother) inspiring rebellion (07:32–08:22).
• Shaping Philippe: Stories suggest Philippe was raised differently to avoid rebellious tendencies seen in his uncle—fueling later myths about his sexuality, which Dr. Spangler critically examines (09:03–09:47).
  • “Victorian historians are to blame: they said, ‘Oh, well, they emasculated him. They made Philippe gay so that he couldn’t challenge the throne.’” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (09:19)
• Gender and Court Dress: Philippe and cousin La Grande Mademoiselle were famous for flamboyant dress, including attending balls as shepherdesses (10:24–11:04).
  • “She describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there’s an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses and they sort of parade around.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (11:04)
• Drag and Fashion: The panel notes cross-dressing’s history at court and discusses gendered fashion's shifting meanings (11:45–12:09).
  • “Particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine. Much more flamboyant than anybody would wear today.” — Tom Allen (11:45)

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4. Role of the ‘Spare’: Duty, Jealousy, and Relationships

• Always Prepared, Never King: Philippe was prepped to rule in case of Louis’ early death, commanded to defer at all times (06:58–07:08, 12:09–13:01).
• Romantic Life: The podcast dissects Philippe’s arranged marriage to Henrietta Anne of England (Henriette), describing both their surprising fertility and marital rivalries (13:20–14:35).
  • “So much to everybody’s surprise, probably they have a daughter… and another girl a bit later.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (14:21)
• Same-Sex Relationships and Scandal: Central to Philippe’s life was the Chevalier de Lorraine—a relationship lasting 40 years, which was unprecedented for its era (16:00).
  • “Other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (16:00)
• Triangular Tension: The trio of Philippe, Henriette, and Chevalier created both rivalry and drama, including scandal, political intrigue, and the eventual tragic death of Henriette under mysterious circumstances (17:00–17:42).

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5. Remarriage and Family Dynamics

• Marriage to Elizabeth Charlotte (‘Liselotte’) of the Palatinate: A robust, witty German princess, Liselotte’s thousands of letters provide key insights into court life; she was known for her humor and self-deprecation (19:25–20:26).
  • “‘My father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me badger nose and I laughed even harder.’” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (19:58)
• The Chevalier remained an integral, often disruptive, third presence in Philippe’s life and marriage (20:41 onwards).
• Shared Loss: Philippe and Liselotte bonded through personal tragedy but ultimately formed a workable partnership, living amicably, with Liselotte focusing on correspondence and her dogs (21:00–21:15).

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6. Military Glories (“Lover and a fighter”)

• Unexpected Heroics: Despite his reputation as frivolous and flamboyant, Philippe excelled militarily, winning at the Battle of Cassel against William III of Orange (22:02–22:36).
  • “Surprise, surprise, Philippe trounces him.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (22:29)
• Court Jealousy: His martial success earned him no praise from Louis XIV, who never gave Philippe high command again due to jealousy (23:19–23:41).
  • “Louis being a really, I think, awful brother… not treating him very well… He doesn’t give him another command ever again.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (23:19)

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7. Philippe the Entrepreneur: Wealth and Legacy

• Turning to Finance: With military ambitions blocked, Philippe became deeply involved in estate management, infrastructural projects, and doubled the income of his duchy (24:04).
• Independent Fortune: After the death of La Grande Mademoiselle, Philippe inherited her immense personal wealth, making him financially autonomous from the Crown (24:27–24:40).
  • “It’s his private money… that’s hugely different.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (24:39)

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8. Death and Aftermath

• Death by Stress: An explosive argument with Louis XIV is said to have triggered Philippe’s fatal heart attack (25:32–26:11).
  • “He goes to Versailles and argues with Louis about Chartres not being given a job… He’s so angry… and shouts at Louis, which is incredible if you think about it.” — Greg Jenner (25:36–26:07)
• Protecting the Family Name: Liselotte immediately burned Philippe’s private letters to shield their children from scandal (26:11–26:33).
• Chevalier’s Fate: Philippe’s son offered the Chevalier de Lorraine continued comfort and residence—“lived there happily… then died a year later.” — Dr. Jonathan Spangler (26:33–26:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On always being the understudy:
  “It’s a tough one, though, isn’t it, being an understudy like that? Always rehearsing for a gig you’re never gonna get.”
  — Tom Allen (10:13)

• On court fashion and drag:
  “For a long, long time, particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine. Much more flamboyant than anybody would wear today.”
  — Tom Allen (11:45)

• On courtly relationships:
  “The job is almost always… if you can keep this inside the court, that’s fine. Have your quiche and eat it.”
  — Dr. Jonathan Spangler and Tom Allen (15:24–15:32)

• On the triangle with Chevalier and Henriette:
  “Once it got too scandalous, he [Comte de Guiche] had to be sent away—sent off to war to hopefully get shot.”
  — Greg Jenner (16:55)

• On Philippe’s military priorities:
  “Do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle? He was adjusting his wig.”
  — Greg Jenner (22:53)

• On Philippe’s complex reputation:
  “History has remembered this prince as a fop and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times: a loyal supporter of his brother Louis XIV, a patron and a collector, and a savvy businessman.”
  — Dr. Jonathan Spangler, The Nuance Window (27:15–28:48)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:19 – Tom Allen’s aristocratic fantasies
• 05:18 – Philippe’s family background and parentage
• 09:03 – The “Philippe raised as a girl” myth debunked
• 10:24 – Cross-dressing at balls and court drag
• 13:20 – Marriage to Henrietta Anne and rivalry with Comte de Guiche
• 16:00 – The enduring love for Chevalier de Lorraine
• 19:25 – Second marriage to Liselotte, her wit, and humor
• 22:02 – Philippe’s military success at Cassel
• 24:04 – Estates, finances, and La Grande Mademoiselle’s bequest
• 25:32 – Philippe’s death following a heated argument
• 27:15 – The Nuance Window: Philippe’s complex legacy

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Final Reflections and Takeaways

The episode paints Philippe d’Orléans as much more than the king’s flamboyant brother. He was a man of contrasts: tender and tempestuous, loyal and fierce, lover and warrior, family man and devoted to lovers. He navigated a stifling role with humor and style, eventually achieving independence, building a powerful dynasty, and becoming a significant patron of the arts.

Tom Allen’s Final Advice:

“What an inspiring person…even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position, you can actually make a heck of a lot of what you get up to… My advice is buy antiques!” (28:52–29:15)

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Further Listening

For more on French royals or LGBTQ history:

• Catherine de Medici
• Marie Antoinette
• Benedetta Carlini (the “saucy sexy nun”)
• The Bloomsbury Group

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Hosts and guests brought Philippe d’Orléans’ world vividly to life—with wit, warmth, and a keen eye for the quirks that history forgot.

Transcript

[Tom Allen]

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historic historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are slipping into our ball gowns and sauntering over to 17th century France to learn all about Louis XIV's less famous but more fabulous brother, Philippe Duke d'. Orleans. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. He's a Senior Lecturer in History at Manchester Metropolitan University where he specializes in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbors. Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal courts and is the author of Monsieur Second Sons in the Monarchy of France. And it's Dr. Jonathan Spangler. Welcome, Jonathan. Hello.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Thanks. It's great to be here today.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, he's a top class comedian, writer and presenter. You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows as well as from Bake off and Extra Slice, the Apprentice you're fired. Maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs, no Shame and Too Much. Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, Like Minded Friends and Pottering. It's Tom Allen. Welcome to the show, Tom.

[Tom Allen]

Well, Greg, thank you for that lovely welcome. I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan, whose speciality is exactly what I'm interested in. Second sons in aristocracies across northern Europe. Actually, any kind of aristocratic life, I think, because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. Which is unfortunate considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley, so. But much to my family and friends chagrin. Chagrin. I've often tried to try to pretend I'm an aristocrat and I'm being very quickly knocked down. Maybe that'll change today.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, I mean, you dress beautifully, so I think you certainly. You've certainly passed muster on the. On the looks.

[Tom Allen]

We're going out on the BBC, aren't we?

[Greg Jenner]

We are.

[Tom Allen]

Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation, so I think I would like it if all Radio 4 presenters and announcers still wore a dinner jacket.

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[Greg Jenner]

I'm so sorry. Well, Greg, I wouldn't mind.

[Tom Allen]

Spoil it for the listener, I was going to say. I'm so glad you've stuck to that tradition, Greg.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And I'm in a bowl gown.

[Greg Jenner]

Y. Tom, are you a history lover? Do you enjoy history?

[Tom Allen]

I have always loved history. I almost did it at university but then rather precociously, like a second son of any French aristocrat, decided I didn't need it, so didn't go. But I nearly. I went to interview at Clare College in Cambridge. Oh, of course, applied there because I thought it was the nicest building, as any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there and did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected and that sort of put me off a bit and so I think I decided to pursue showbiz instead, which I think probably was the right thing.

[Greg Jenner]

So, what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother Louis, King Louis. In the film A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a suave Stanley Tucci. In the man in the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio. But my personal fave, of course, is the TV drama Versailles shown on the BBC Which I got to discuss every week as the co host of BBC2's Inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams. Bonjour. But was Philippe more than just King Louis? Chaotic little brother? What's it like to grow up as the spare? And how long can you really keep a menageritoire going? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Jonathan, let's start at the start. When little prince Philippe was born, who were his parents? Presumably kings, queens?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes, that's right. So if you're a prince, generally your parents are a king and a queen. And in this case France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis. So his father's name is Louis xiii. His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain, but the House of Austria governs in Spain and so that's the way they call her Anne Detritien in French. So Louis and Anne are his parents. He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the 17th century almost. And he had an older brother who was called Louis X. Eventually, by the time he's called the Dauphin, Philippe and Louis were both born after over 15 years of marriage for his parents. And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis XIV is born. And so they of course name him Le Dieu d', honne, which is the God given son.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, how lovely. That's what people said about me, actually.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

It's quite an entrance into the world, I think.

[Greg Jenner]

So even as a spare young prince Philippe, you know, the second son, but still a prince, he's having presumably a very prestigious upbringing. He's to be educated to be a king or does he get a different education?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, he's being educated to be a king because in the 17th century, infants often died after only a year or two or nine or 10. So Philippe was always called the spare, he was always the next one in line. So he had to be raised the same way. They had a governess, they had tutors, they had horse riding, fencing, military history, military strategy. At the same time there was always a bit of a limit in that Louis XIV was always the first and Philippe always had to defer to him no matter what. So their psychological relationship was set up from the very, very start.

[Tom Allen]

And when you say defer, what would that have meant on a day to day?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Well, it would have meant that if Louis XIV stood up, well, let's call him the Dauphin, Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up. I mean, that kind of thing.

[Tom Allen]

Right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

But we also have stories of them being boys and throwing things at each other and fighting on the floor. And then Philippe is chided because you can't strike your older brother and he is the dauphin of France.

[Greg Jenner]

That's. I mean, can you imagine that? Mom, I told you, tragedy strikes very young for these two boys. France loses its king.

[Tom Allen]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

Louis XIII dies and the boys are four. Three.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right. So four years old and three years old. It's the middle of the 17th century. There are wars raging both with Germany and Spain. France has been at war for over 10 years. Their mother, Anne of Austria, tries to take the reins of government with Cardinal Mazarin by her side. But the old elites, the pr, the dukes, they don't want to have anything of that. They think they should be running the government as well. So they stage a battle, a civil war called the Fronde in France. And it gets to be so scary that at one point, Anne takes the boys and just escapes the countryside to Saint Germain en Laye in the western parts of Paris. The other character who's revolving around in the background that I think we shouldn't Forget is Louis XIII's younger brother. So there's another generation of all this. Gaston is still alive. Gaston is dashing and lovely. He's one of my favorites. But he is at the head of this rebellion.

[Tom Allen]

Not to put everything into popular culture, but is he the one in the Three Musketeers I'm actually not talking about?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He probably is.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. I'm not thinking of the novel. I'm actually thinking of the movies of the cartoon.

[Greg Jenner]

I think of Dogtagon.

[Tom Allen]

Dogtagnion. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

That famous documentary.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. I don't know if that's one that you. You're right.

[Greg Jenner]

There is a Gaston, isn't there?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, I'm aware of it, but I have to.

[Tom Allen]

It's dubbed in English as well.

[Greg Jenner]

So. Uncle Gaston. It's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle, even in the 17th century.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. Should we get into that?

[Greg Jenner]

The one thing we do need to address, and I'm curious whether this is gossip, rumor, there is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So the idea really is that while Gaston's still alive, Philippe needs to be trained how to be different. Because Gaston was involved in civil wars from the 1620s all the way to the 1650s, constantly rebelling. And they thought, well, let's do something different. So later historians, I think 19th century Victorian historians are to blame, said, oh, well, they emasculated him. They made Philippe gay. So that he couldn't challenge the throne. And I think that's ridiculous because why would you do that?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, that wouldn't have served them well.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Particularly given that Louis XIV could have died at any moment and then suddenly you are stuck with, oh, dear, what have we done?

[Greg Jenner]

He's the backup plan, right? He's the future of France if Louis gets a cold. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So logically, it really doesn't make sense, but I think the Victorians liked that idea. Okay, so he is a bit freer and is a bit different. And I think his character, he's written about as much more energetic, much more fun, much more unpredictable, I think. But sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough. Not, you know, you're supposed to be the.

[Greg Jenner]

He's fun with his friends, he's having a laugh. But maybe he's not quite growing up fast enough.

[Tom Allen]

It's a tough one though, isn't it, being an understudy like that, Always rehearsing for a gig you're never gonna get.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are stories of him showing up to court in a ball gown.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So one of the best memoirs we have at the time, which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what, is La Grande Mademoiselle. And her memoirs are hilarious because thinks she's the most important person in Europe and her memoirs start that way. They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them.

[Tom Allen]

That sort of sense of self importance, I think is so fascinating. In an age when we're encouraged to be quite meek and quite sort of muted, she was anything but.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So she's Gaston's daughter, by the way.

[Tom Allen]

She's an Instagram influencer.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So she's Gaston's daughter and she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherdess.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, well, they did together. So they were often paired together to come to balls or dances as potential partners. You know, they may have gotten married, Even though she's 20 years older than he. But yes, she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there's an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses and they sort of parade around.

[Tom Allen]

They seem to love shepherdesses. Cause later on, Marie Antoinette. That's right.

[Greg Jenner]

Good knowledge.

[Tom Allen]

There's some like, thing in the French court, like, what should we dress at? Like, sort of tarts and vicars party they go to. Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So the upper class dressing as peasants and shepherds is quite funny.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, I see that Was the thing they did.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

The ultimate role reversal, isn't it?

[Tom Allen]

It's interesting to me that we talk about, like, drag or we talk about kind of people wearing different clothes than society might expect of them, and it creates this uproar. But I kind of do think, well, for a long, long time, particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine. Much more flamboyant than anything anybody would wear today.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, we did an episode on the history of high heel shoes, which were first invented for men. And, you know.

[Tom Allen]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

And so, yeah, the history of the gendering of that type of shoe is really interesting. It goes back and forth, you know. But let's talk about Philippe as the spare. Right. So he's the understudy, which is awkward enough, but I suppose he has to be ready. Louis the king does feel he gets very, very unwell in 1658, and there is the possibility he's gonna die.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So this is one of the places where I think people thought Philippe might become like Gaston and would champion a rebellion. A court coup was kind of brewing because Louis X and Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to. There's a whole coterie of people gathering around his bed saying, now's the time, now's the time. And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much. And if Louis had died, of course, Philippe would have become king. But I think right away, it shows that Philippe is of a different character to Uncle Gaston in that he doesn't really want to seize power.

[Greg Jenner]

But obviously, in 1661, King Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare, immediately he's no longer needed.

[LinkedIn Ads Narrator]

Right, right.

[Greg Jenner]

He's now the understudy to the understudy.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So he's kind of. He's had the Uncle Gaston treatment.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. He's been Gaston'd.

[Greg Jenner]

He's been Gaston'd.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, no, we haven't really mentioned romance. I mean, you mentioned the shepherdess. Does that work out?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So, yeah, there is a plan to marry monsieur with la grande mademoiselle. And there is another cutting line from her where she says, having seen what he is like, I think I'd rather marry no one at all.

[Tom Allen]

No. I thought they were great friends.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

They were great friends. But, I mean, she's a smart woman and she realizes that his interests already are not in women. In 1660, 1661, France needed a new ally across the Channel. So Louis XIV looked to his cousin, Charles ii, who was the King of England. And Scotland. And he arranges a marriage with Charles sister, who's called Henrietta Anne or Henriette in French.

[Greg Jenner]

He has been promoted. He's now a duke at this point. Cause Gaston has died, Uncle Gaston has gone, which means his title is up for grabs. And King Louis says, all right, you get to be the Duke of Orleans. Henriette is now the Duchess of Orleans. So Mr. And Mrs. Orleans, whatever the rules are, do they have kids?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, right away.

[Tom Allen]

Do they?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Oh, so much to everybody's surprise, probably they have a daughter called Marie Louise right away. And then there's a boy who doesn't live very long called the Duke of Valois and another girl a bit later called Marie Anne. So they do have children.

[Greg Jenner]

So we get the scent. Henriette and Philippe, there's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jealousies.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

There's a guy called the Comte de Guiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in.

[Tom Allen]

Comte de Guiche.

[Greg Jenner]

Guiche Lorraine. What?

[Tom Allen]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And Guiche is very violent. There's stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Guiche, which are a little weird. But Henriette sweeps in and takes him as her boyfriend.

[Tom Allen]

And the idea of, I suppose, labeling is also not really happening there, that people aren't coming out.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right. So there was no concept really of a homosexual. There was no concept of an identity that you would choose or not choose.

[Tom Allen]

Right.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And I think we should be clear to say this is a very upper class thing. So middle class people, they're tutting away.

[Tom Allen]

Yes.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

The job is almost always. If you can keep this inside the court, that's fine.

[Tom Allen]

Have your quiche, have your quiche and eat it.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, we're going from quiche to Lorraine because actually the next man is the Chevalier de Lorraine.

[Tom Allen]

Oh my goodness. On ITV at 9am every day.

[Greg Jenner]

Have you ever heard of the Chevalier de Lorraine?

[Tom Allen]

The Horseman of Lorraine? No.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the knight.

[Tom Allen]

The knight. Oh, yeah. Is that right? No, I haven't actually. As I say, only his quiche.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a delightful gift. Very nice. I mean, Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say, is Philippe's great love.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes, other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years.

[Tom Allen]

Really?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Which I've never found an example like that in the 17th century of two men together like that. And so the Chevalier de Lorraine is a great character because he was good looking, he was charming. He was from a really old family, the oldest family in Europe, but he had no money at All. So he was totally dependent on Philippe.

[Greg Jenner]

A 40 year relationship. In some regards, lovely, beautiful, wonderful. In other ways, he is married. How do you think Henriette, his wife, dealt with. Yeah, I know. He did. Yeah. How do you think she dealt with the Chevalier? How do you think she handled him?

[Tom Allen]

Wasn't. But she's still. Isn't she off with what's his name?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Kiche.

[Tom Allen]

Quiche.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Tom Allen]

She's having a quiche and eating it. She's so she's. Is he. Is he still knocking around with her?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

No, they've sent him off to the front.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, God.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Once it got too scandalous, he had to be sent away.

[Greg Jenner]

Sent off to war to hopefully get shot. Hopefully, you know.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah. Oh, so imagine she's furious then.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So she's furious and moves on.

[Tom Allen]

Here.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Chevalier and Henriette don't get along and they're always throwing barbs at each other. But then the interesting twist comes along when she decides really that she wants to be a lot more politically active. And so Louis XIV needed more allies, so he sent her off to England to meet with her brother. And Henriette and Charles have a tete. A tete in Dover. They sign a treaty, she comes back to France in triumph. Everyone is saying what a great job she's had. And this is June of 1670. She suddenly becomes very sick after drinking chicory, which is sort of like hot chocolate, and dies very soon after.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, no.

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[Greg Jenner]

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[Tom Allen]

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[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.

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[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

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Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Greg Jenner]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. We have now Phillipe, the father of children, no longer married, with a stable boyfriend. There's no real reason for him to remarry.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Not necessarily, no. But Louis XIV only has one son and even though the Dauphin is now 10, he still could die.

[Tom Allen]

Chicory happens.

[Greg Jenner]

Chicory happens.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And Louis XIV needs new allies. There's a state called the Palatinate which controls the Middle Rhine. And so Louis XIV gets a girl from the Palatinate who is a wonderful character who we'll talk about a bit more now called Elizabeth, Charlotte of the Palatinate. We call her Lieselotte which is not really correct. It's what the Germans. Lizzie with a Z. Lizzie with a Z. She's called Madame Palatine by the French.

[Greg Jenner]

Liselota is a fantastically enjoyable character. Her letters are incredible. They're so funny. She herself. How does she describe herself? Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So we are so lucky as historians that she left behind thousands of letters. Almost every day she wrote letters to relatives either in England or in Germany and they are hilariously funny and she even has a very funny letter where she says, you know, I've always made fun of my ugliness quote my father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me badger nose and I laughed even harder.

[Tom Allen]

I mean bless her, she sounds like a lot of fun.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

I have a lot of time for

[Tom Allen]

her and yes, it's quite self deprecating

[Greg Jenner]

then for her she's sort of out there physical, you know, strong and hilariously funny. Her letters are fantastic. But we must talk about the chevalier again because he came back into the

[Tom Allen]

picture, not leave the picture, will he?

[Greg Jenner]

He's not getting the memo. And 1672 he's back in the life and he sort of, you know, ruins the honeymoon period with lies. A lotta.

[Tom Allen]

I bet he absolutely hates poor old Liza Lotta. Yeah, maybe she sounds like she's funnier than him, which gays hate.

[Greg Jenner]

They suffer tragedy. The couple, right, they lose a child.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, so there is another boy that's born but he only lives a year or so and so they do suffer this tragedy which brings them together and I think throughout all of it, even if he has this boyfriend and other boyfriends, they do feel like a really good couple for the rest of their lives. So it's a very strange kind of three way relationship. But then once the child rearing age kind of passes, I think the chevalier Decides now is my time again and I want to be really the head of this household.

[Tom Allen]

Really?

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah.

[Tom Allen]

Ambitious.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

He is very ambitious. And all the commentators say he runs Philippe's household.

[Greg Jenner]

The children, we should mention their names. It's another Philippe. Little Philippe, Duke de Chartres and Elizabeth. Charlotte. Or Charlotte. So after 1677, their relationship is struggling, but we need to talk about something that might be a little surprising. We've talked about Philippe as a man of great flair and laughter.

[Tom Allen]

My goodness. Have we? Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

He's also a great warrior.

[Tom Allen]

Warrior or warrior?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, that's a good point. I mean, technically, probably a bit of both, but warrior, Warrior.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, he's a good fighter.

[Greg Jenner]

He's a good fighter. He's a lover and a fighter, Tom.

[Tom Allen]

A lover and a fighter. Goodness me. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

He goes to war.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. So that's one of the very interesting shocks of the life, is that they go to war. It's boringly called the Dutch War in the middle of the 1670s, but at one point in 1677, he's in Flanders on his own and the King isn't there and it's a small village called Cassel. And our good friend William iii, who's also in favor of boys.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yes. They face each other on the battlefield and surprise, surprise, Philippe trounces him. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So William III would, of course, be King William of England.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right, right. Not yet.

[Greg Jenner]

Not yet.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So in 1677, he's the stadtholder of the Netherlands, he's the Prince of Orange,

[Greg Jenner]

but he will be William, as in William and mary.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right. In 10 years time, he will become William and Mary in this country.

[Greg Jenner]

So Philip wins a huge victory at the Battle of Kassel. But do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle?

[Tom Allen]

His nails almost.

[Greg Jenner]

He was adjusting his wig. The battle had started, his men were fighting and he was still in his

[Tom Allen]

tent, which I absolutely respect, and I think the men would have respected him for that as well.

[Greg Jenner]

You can't go to battle with a loose fringe.

[Tom Allen]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

But this is Phillipe's shining military moment and he gets back to Paris, back to Versailles, and his brother the King says basically nothing. Oh, no.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

So I think in the history of their relationship, Louis, between the brothers Louis and Philippe, this is really the high point of Louis being a really, I think, awful brother to Philippe and not treating him very well. And that carries on then for the next decade, he doesn't give him another command ever again, because I think he's embarrassed and he doesn't like little Brother having done so well in a battle.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so what do you think Philippe does to find a new path to independence from his brother? What's his new career move?

[Tom Allen]

Musicals or

[Greg Jenner]

crypto.

[Tom Allen]

Yeah, crypto is me.

[Greg Jenner]

He sort of goes into finance and business and. Oh, okay. He's suddenly very good with his pennies.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah. So the other rather surprising turn, you might say, for someone who was so frivolous in his 20s, now he's in his 30s and 40s, he develops his lands, his appanage, and he builds a canal, he builds agricultural systems. He makes the land that he's been given profitable, doubles its income, and then he gets a big windfall because guess what? La grande mademoiselle dies.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Still unmarried. And he gets it all.

[Greg Jenner]

Really?

[Tom Allen]

So she did like him in the end.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, yeah. She gives him all the money and it's not tied to the crown the way his other money is, so he becomes financially independent.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, so it's his private wealth.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

It's his private money.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, lovely.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

That's hugely different.

[Tom Allen]

Heaven.

[Greg Jenner]

Still married to Lisa. Lotta, of course.

[Tom Allen]

Lisa with a Z. And Lisa. Lotta. Lisa loads her now. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So. And Chevalier's still knocking about in the background.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Allen]

So the three of them.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. There's three of us in this marriage. Yes.

[Tom Allen]

My word. Yes, there is.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

And by the 1680s or 90s, they do sort of have a modus operandi. They do kind of live together. It works happily.

[Greg Jenner]

They've sort of found a way of existing together at times.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

She's most interested in her letter writing and her dogs.

[Tom Allen]

Oh, fair enough.

[Greg Jenner]

Tom. Given all you know now about Philippe, how do you think he died? What? What do you think did him in the end?

[Tom Allen]

Ham sandwich

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

like Mama Cass.

[Tom Allen]

Yes, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

Or.

[Tom Allen]

Or fellow tripped up on one of his antiques.

[Greg Jenner]

No, it's quite sad. He had a big argument with Louis.

[Tom Allen]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

And the stress kills him, Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Yeah, that's one of the stories. Some people say maybe not, but it seems at least it contributed to it, because in the 1690s, he ate a lot and he sat around a lot and he gets redder and redder in the face. And there is a story that he goes to Versailles and argues with Louis about Chartres not being given a job. And then he's so angry and shouts at Louis, which is incredible if you think about it. Shouting at Louis. Nobody does that.

[Greg Jenner]

The most powerful man in Europe at this point, Louis XIV is unbelievably powerful,

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

and then goes back to Saint Cloud, his house, has a heart attack. And dies. What we know about the death of Philippe is that the King can't be present. So he had left and gone back to Versailles. And Philippe dies at Saint Cloud. And the first thing that his wife does, as she later tells us, she walks straight into his rooms and burns all of his private letters, which are mostly from his male favorites, because that

[Tom Allen]

would have created further scandal for the children, presumably.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Right? The other thing that happened right after Philippe died was that his son, who's the new Duke of Orleans, offered the Chevalier de use of his apartments in the Palais Royal for as long as he wanted. And so he did live there happily, not being turfed out. But he then died as well, a year later.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance window. Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Tom and I sit quietly to plan our masquerade costumes. I'm going. Shepherdess, how about you for two minutes while Jonathan holds court and tells us something we need to know about Philippe, Duc d'. Orleans. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr. Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Okay, thank you. What we've been talking about today in a nutshell, really. Every royal dynasty in history has been faced with a similar conundrum. If you have too many heirs and you cause infighting over the succession, but if you have too few heirs, then your dynasty could go extinct. So you have an heir and a spare, which is good practice, but you then need to give the spare something to do. Otherwise, he. And in France, it's always a He could go rogue and try to carve out a niche for himself, potentially challenging the power of the older brother, the king. Philippe d' Orleans found himself in this position. If he did nothing, he was accused of being lazy and unworthy of his princely title. But if he was active in politics of the military, he was accused of being threatening. And so it was a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. So Philippe chose a different path to some of his more aggressive predecessors. He was fiercely loyal to the King and focused his energies away from politics and more into patronage of the arts, building up his palaces, his gardens, and generally being an additional ornament to the French monarchy. He did his duty in marrying, to advance France's diplomatic affairs and in producing extra heirs for the Bourbon dynasty. But he also was a source of potential scandal and disrepute for the French monarchy in his fairly open affairs with men. History has remembered this prince as a fop and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times. A loyal Supporter of his brother Louis xiv, a patron and a collector and a savvy businessman who laid the foundations for the powerful Orleans dynasty that endured for generations.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing. Thank you so much, Tom. Final thoughts on Philippe, I suppose.

[Tom Allen]

What an inspiring person to teach you that even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position, you can actually make a heck of a lot of what you get up to. I mean, it helps, of course, if you are the second son of the most powerful dynasty in Europe at the time, but that aside, goes to show you can still do something. My advice is by antics.

[Greg Jenner]

That's good advice. Yeah.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Or inherit your spinster cousin's vast fortune.

[Tom Allen]

It really helps if you've got a spinster cousin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, absolutely.

[Tom Allen]

The richest woman in Europe.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Make sure to be a Nepo prince with a very connected family. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Tom, for coming on. An absolute pleasure. Thank you, Dr. Jonathan Listener. If you want more fascinating French royals, check out our episodes on Catherine de Medici or Mariannette. For more LGBTQ history, listen to our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy Sexy nun. And of course, the Bloomsbury Group with Susie Ruffle, your friend, Tom. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say, of course, a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner from Manchester Metropolitan University, we have the superb Dr. Jonathan Spangler. Thank you, Jonathan.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Thank you very much. It's been fun, has been fun.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the terrific Tom Allen. Nasi Beaucoup Tom Durian. Beautifully done. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we give another spare from history the attention they deserve. But for now, I'm off to go and buy a shepherdess costume. And awake. Bye. Hello, I'm Alan Davis and on BBC Radio 4, we're off into alternate realities mapped out by science. This is life without, where I pull one thread from the magnificent fabric of life and watch what unravels. Scientists around the world would be crying themselves to sleep. A bunch of mammals would be worrying about where their favourite snack was. And we bring it down to Earth. David Beckham, I can imagine him putting that on the socials. My bees of my girls have all disappeared. Sometimes we patch it up and crack on.

[Tom Allen]

We will survive.

[Greg Jenner]

We will survive.

[Tom Allen]

Humans are ingenious.

[Greg Jenner]

That is our Hallmark property we should

[Tom Allen]

prize above everything else.

[Greg Jenner]

But sometimes it's bigger than us.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Join me to find out just how

[Greg Jenner]

far the unraveling can go. Subscribe to Life without on BBC Sounds.

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[Greg Jenner]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

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Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Greg Jenner]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?

[Greg Jenner]

Really? I can get super specific with dealer

[Tom Allen]

listings and see cars based on my budget.

[Greg Jenner]

You can really have it delivered or pick it up.

[Dr. Jonathan Spangler]

Mommy's walking.

[Greg Jenner]

I think kid is walking up the slide. Really?

[Tom Allen]

Autotrader, Buy your car online?

[Greg Jenner]

Really?