Robert Bruce (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You're Dead to Me" – Episode on Robert Bruce

Released on November 8, 2024, "You're Dead to Me" is a BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast hosted by Greg Jenner. The show uniquely blends humor with historical insight, featuring conversations with experts and comedians to explore significant historical figures and events. In this episode, Jenner delves into the life and legacy of medieval Scottish King Robert Bruce, also known as Robert the Bruce.

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Introduction to Robert Bruce

Greg Jenner opens the episode by introducing the central figure, Robert Bruce, setting the stage for an exploration of his role in medieval Scotland's quest for independence. He poses intriguing questions about Bruce's rise from outlaw to king and hints at legendary tales, such as receiving tactical advice from the animal kingdom.

"[...] Robert Bruce may have received tactical advice from the animal kingdom. Let's find out."
[02:10] Greg Jenner

Meet the Guests

Jenner introduces his guests:

• Dr. Ian McInnes, a senior lecturer at the Centre for History at the University of the Highlands and Ireland, specializing in medieval Scottish political and military history.
• Mary Elaine Robertson, a comedian and storyteller known for her performances at the Edinburgh Festival and appearances on shows like "Breaking the News" and "Rosie Jones Disability Comedy Extravaganza."

"It's great to have both a historian and a comedian on the show to provide depth and humor to Robert Bruce's story."
[02:51] Greg Jenner

The Bruce Lineage and Claims to the Throne

Dr. McInnes provides a detailed background of the Bruce family, tracing their Norman origins and their establishment in Scotland and England. He explains how Robert Bruce V had a distant claim to the Scottish throne through his ancestry but ultimately failed to secure it during the Great Cause, a legal process overseen by Edward I of England.

"Robert V was known as Robert the Competitor, but despite his claims, the throne went to John Balliol instead."
[06:04] Dr. Ian McInnes

Mary Elaine humorously expresses her initial skepticism about Bruce's loyalties, highlighting the complex political landscape of Northern Scotland during his time.

"In Shetland, if you get too big for your boots, you get ripped to pieces. Modesty reigns supreme."
[07:05] Mary Elaine Robertson

Robert Bruce’s Early Struggles and Alliances

As Greg Jenner outlines Bruce’s ascent to adulthood in the 1290s, Dr. McInnes discusses the tenuous peace following the Great Cause. However, Edward I's continuous demands strain this stability, leading to increased tensions and eventual conflict as Scotland seeks alliances with France against England.

"Edward I undermined Scottish sovereignty with constant demands, pushing Scotland towards rebellion."
[09:01] Dr. Ian McInnes

Mary Elaine notes the inconsistency in Robert Bruce’s alliances, questioning his loyalty as he fluctuates between supporting and opposing the English.

"Our fearless freedom fighter has fought for and against the English. Quite confusing."
[11:35] Mary Elaine Robertson

The Turning Point: Murder and Ascension

A pivotal moment occurs when Robert Bruce murders his rival, John Comyn, in the Church of Greyfriars, Dumfries. Dr. McInnes explains the political and personal motivations behind this act, including the pressure Bruce felt from Edward I and his desire to secure the Scottish throne.

"Robert Bruce kills John Comyn in a fit of betrayal, igniting his path to kingship."
[14:49] Dr. Ian McInnes

Mary Elaine humorously criticizes Bruce’s actions, highlighting the audacity of committing murder in a sacred space.

"Killing someone in a church? That's low, even for medieval standards."
[15:23] Mary Elaine Robertson

Escape, Rebellion, and Legendary Stories

Following his excommunication and defeat, Robert Bruce flees Scotland, leading to a dramatic escape narrative. Mary Elaine brings levity to the discussion with the famous (though likely apocryphal) tale of Bruce finding inspiration from a determined spider while hiding in a cave.

"He sees a spider struggling to build its web and thinks, if the spider can persevere, so can I."
[18:18] Mary Elaine Robertson

Dr. McInnes clarifies the mythological nature of this story, emphasizing Bruce's genuine resilience and strategic maneuvers upon his return to Scotland.

"While the spider story is likely a myth, it symbolizes Bruce's tenacity in reclaiming his throne."
[18:54] Dr. Ian McInnes

Battle of Bannockburn and Scottish Independence

The episode highlights the Battle of Bannockburn (1314), a monumental victory for Robert Bruce against the English forces led by Edward II. Dr. McInnes underscores the battle's significance as the first large-scale Scottish victory and its role in boosting Scottish morale and international standing.

"Bannockburn was a decisive victory that allowed Bruce to capture English prisoners and negotiate for the release of his family."
[21:45] Dr. Ian McInnes

Mary Elaine muses humorously on the logistics of Bruce’s unconventional battle tactics, such as disguising soldiers as cows to infiltrate castles.

"Sneaking into castles dressed as cows? That's some serious camouflage."
[20:30] Mary Elaine Robertson

Diplomacy and the Declaration of Arbroath

As the war continues, Bruce navigates complex diplomatic relations, culminating in the Declaration of Arbroath (1320). This document asserts Scottish independence and support for Bruce's kingship, despite his excommunication by the Pope.

"The Declaration emphasizes that the Scots are peace-loving yet resilient, standing firmly behind Robert as their rightful king."
[23:09] Dr. Ian McInnes

Final Years and Legacy

Robert Bruce’s later years are marked by poor health and political challenges, including treaties that attempt to secure peace with England. Dr. McInnes discusses Bruce's strategic marriages to secure alliances and heirs, despite personal tragedies such as the death of his wife in childbirth.

"Robert's marriage to Elizabeth de Bourgh was politically motivated, linking him to powerful English supporters."
[13:24] Dr. Ian McInnes

Mary Elaine humorously critiques Bruce’s personal decisions, adding levity to the serious historical narrative.

"Marrying off your four-year-old son to the English princess? That's not exactly a charming family moment."
[25:10] Mary Elaine Robertson

Bruce dies in 1329 under uncertain circumstances, leaving a young heir and a fragile peace that would soon be threatened by future conflicts, as elaborated in the "Nuance Window."

Nuance Window: The Aftermath of Robert Bruce’s Reign

In the concluding segment, Dr. McInnes reflects on Bruce's enduring legacy and the tumultuous period following his death. He explains how Robert’s efforts laid the groundwork for Scottish sovereignty, yet internal and external pressures continued to challenge the newly established peace. The emergence of Edward Balliol and ongoing disputes indicate that Bruce’s reign was just the beginning of a prolonged struggle for Scotland's independence.

"Robert’s death did not end the conflicts but set the stage for further wars, highlighting the fragile nature of medieval Scottish sovereignty."
[27:00] Dr. Ian McInnes

Closing Remarks

Greg Jenner thanks his guests, emphasizing the fascinating blend of historical scholarship and comedic insight that made the episode both informative and entertaining. He humorously concludes by referencing the mythical spider advice, tying back to the episode’s earlier anecdotes.

"Join me next time as we do battle with another historical heavyweight. But for now, I'm off to consult a spider for some career advice. Bye."
[29:16] Greg Jenner

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Notable Quotes:

• "Robert V was known as Robert the Competitor, but despite his claims, the throne went to John Balliol instead."
  [06:04] Dr. Ian McInnes

• "If the spider can go again, so can I."
  [18:18] Mary Elaine Robertson

• "Bannockburn was a decisive victory that allowed Bruce to capture English prisoners and negotiate for the release of his family."
  [21:45] Dr. Ian McInnes

• "Sneaking into castles dressed as cows? That's some serious camouflage."
  [20:30] Mary Elaine Robertson

• "Join me next time as we do battle with another historical heavyweight. But for now, I'm off to consult a spider for some career advice. Bye."
  [29:16] Greg Jenner

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Conclusion

This episode of "You're Dead to Me" masterfully intertwines historical analysis with comedic elements, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Robert Bruce's complex character and his pivotal role in Scotland's fight for independence. Through engaging dialogue and insightful commentary, Greg Jenner, Dr. Ian McInnes, and Mary Elaine Robertson bring to life the tumultuous era of medieval Scotland, making history both accessible and entertaining.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Greg Jenner]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're donning our kilts and daubing our faces blue to learn all about medieval Scottish King Robert Bruce. Robert the Bruce to some, but Robert Bruce to us. And to help us, we have two very special comrades in arms in history Corner. He's a senior lecturer in the Centre for History at the University of the Highlands and Irelands. He's an expert on medieval Scottish political and military history and the author of Scotland's Second war of Independence, 1332-1357. It's Dr. Ian McInnes. Welcome, Ian.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Thanks, Greg. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor and storyteller. She was a finalist at the BBC New Comedy Awards. You might have seen her at Edinburgh with her sellout shows or caught her on Breaking the News or Rosie Jones disability comedy extravaganza. It's Mary. Elaine Robertson. Welcome to the show. Mario Lane.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to learn.

[Greg Jenner]

I have to ask, do you like history?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Yes, well. And no. I suppose I have some beef with history. I studied archaeology, so I'm like, well, we have evidence you have written lies.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, my word. Ian, just. Let's keep it, you know, keep it calm. What do you know about Robert Bruce, better known to many probably as Robert the Bruce?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Yes. I'm a Shetlander, so Shetland was very, very busy at this point in time fighting with Norway and we really weren't so clued up with what you were doing down in Scotland and England. So I know you were having a lot of trouble between the two of you, but we are already very busy up north. Yes. So we became Scotland in part of Scotland in 1469, officially signed over in 1471 in lieu of a payment of a dowry. We're quite bitter about it because the dowry was meant to be 30,000 florins worth. So Denmark and Norway suggested the dowry would be Orkney, and Scotland reckoned that orkney was worth 22,000 florins. So they're like, can you bump it up by 8,000 florins? And they threw in the whole of Shetland, like, what, a third of their cost?

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? Okay, this is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. If you are from Scotland, then Robert Bruce is a household name national hero for winning medieval Scotland's independence from the English. Now, outside of Scotland, he's not quite as famous as William Wallace, but how did an outlaw manage to become King of Scots? And did Robbie Bruce really get tactical advice from the animal kingdom? Let's find out. Normally, we'd start with his childhood, Ian, but for some important reasons, we're going to start with his grandfather, who was Robert Bruce number five.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

So yeah, so if we start in the 13th century, the Bruce's hold lands in Scotland and in England. But Robert V, he also has a distant claim to the throne of Scotland, as his mother was the great granddaughter of King David I. And according to the Bruces, Robert V was promised the throne around 1238 by the then childless king Alexander II. And so in part because of this, Robert V is known as Robert the Competitor. However, even if he was promised it, and it seems unlikely, Alexander II does produce a son who reigns successfully until he falls off his horse and dies in 1286. And unfortunately, Alexander III is predeceased by all of his children and is succeeded then by a young 3 year old granddaughter, Margaret. She dies in Orkney on her way to Scotland. With Margaret's death, there is no clear successor to the Scottish throne. And in that context, the 70 year old Robert V resurrects his claim to the Scottish throne.

[Greg Jenner]

Does he get the throne, Ian? Because it sounds like no one else is around.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Because of the fact that there is no obvious successor, everyone in their ante throws their hat into the ring. And so to avoid Scotland slipping into civil war, the Scottish guardians who are controlling Scotland, in lieu of having a king look outside for help and they look to Edward I of England. Edward does think about pursuing his own claim to the Scottish throne, but instead he says, well, okay, I'll make the decision for you, but all the candidates have to acknowledge me as the superior king over Scotland. And so what follows is what's called the Great cause, which is a legal process. And in that process, Robert V is unsuccessful. Instead.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh no.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Yes, indeed. Instead the throne goes to his rival, John Belial.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's now pivot to our Robert Bruce. He's number seven. What do you think he's into back.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

In the late 1200s, early 1300s, just avoiding plagues and poxies, I don't know, and just trying really hard to stay alive.

[Greg Jenner]

What level of status do you think he's got?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I don't know what it's like doing in Scotland, but in Shetland if you get too big for your boots, you soon get ripped to pieces and modesty reigns supreme. Like if you were a prince, you wouldn't really speak about it. You know, people call you prince, like shut up. No, I'm no.

[Greg Jenner]

Ian. What's the family history?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

So he's certainly part of the Scottish elite. His father is an earl, the Earl of Carrick. The Bruce family are originally from Normandy and came to England in the 12th century. And so, yes, Robert would be raised to be a lord, to be a future earl. There is the possibility, too, that Robert spent time within the household of King Edward I of England.

[Greg Jenner]

But we haven't mentioned his dad, Robert Bruce number six. Doesn't he want to be king?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

While Robert V passes his claim to the Scottish throne onto his son, Robert vi, Robert VI passes his claim onto his earldom onto his son, Robert vii. So Robert VI retains the claim to be King of Scots, but can live off his estates in England and not have to give homage to the new law, the new king. Sorry, who is his enemy, John Bailey? Robert VII does. He has to go and give homage, and he will ultimately retain that claim to the Scottish throne.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Right now, Robert the Bruce doesn't win any favor from me. He sounds like they're just a family who are like, we will be friends with whoever in power will let us keep our land. When's he gonna redeem himself?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, well, this is the question, Mary Lane. When is he gonna become the hero? It's a fair question. I also have to ask, why are we not calling him Robert the Bruce? Where has the gone?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

It's probably just a corruption of the de Bruce name that they brought from France. It is an anachronism. It is just Robert Bruce, ultimately.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. Robbie, 7, has reached adulthood in the early 1290s. But this point, presumably, is where Scotland gets some peace and stability because the Great Cause is over. The decision's been made. John Bailey will rule. So all happy now, Ian?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

In part for a little bit. So, yes, King John is on the throne. He has an heir to succeed him. Things look reasonably straightforward for Scotland. But the bargain that Edward I struck during the Great Cause, when he extracted that oath from the competitors, he calls that in. And so Scotland faces a range of demands that Scottish kings never faced before. Right, so there's demands for taxation, demands to appear at English parliament, orders for military service in France, which the Scots don't want to do. So John is rather undermined at every turn by Edward I. But the Scots ultimately make a deal with the King of France, who Edward I has been at war with recently. So Edward I doesn't take this well. He starts to gather an army to invade Scotland. The Scots get their revenge in the first by raiding northern England. But Edward I then takes the opportunity to use that as an excuse to invade. He sacks Beric, he wins a battle at Dunbar, and he then proceeds to take the submissions of all Scots who come to him, including King John himself, who is stripped of his crown and led off into captivity. And Edward I also takes away every sign of Scottish royalty, including documents, including the Scottish Crown and the Stone of Scone, on which Scottish kings are inaugurated. The Bruce's are not part of the Scottish army, which loses at dunbar. Robert VII may actually have been part of Edward I's forces. And when Robert VI asks Edward I for the crown, Edward is meant to have said, have we nothing better to do than win kingdoms for you?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

The Bruces were fighting on Edward's side.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Yes. It's practical for them to do so.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

For us to now hold Robert the Bruce as a hero, they must have had one amazing, like, PR company. What is this shift? This is hidden from us. Like, if you ask at the start, what I didn't say about Robert the Bruce, I thought was too obvious. It was like, oh, yeah, he's a hero for Scotland and our freedom, isn't he? Is he?

[Greg Jenner]

Is he? But now, Ian, I can hear the Braveheart music, I can see the face paint. Here comes William Wallace. Here comes Robert the Bruce.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Freedom, right, yes. Although no blue paint and no Australian accents, but yes, Robert VII does join in a series of rebellions which break out across Scotland in 1297. So in the north, you have Andrew Murray rising in rebellion, purging influence from the Highlands. In the south, you've got William Wallace undertaking similar activity. Bruce does come out in rebellion himself, but may have submitted relatively quickly.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's quite confusing so far, because our fearless freedom fighter has sort of fought for the English, fought against the English, and then he's sort of back with the English again, is that right?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

He submits to Edward I about 1301, 1302. Yes. He does surrender and basically looks to try and protect himself.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I'm trying to work out if he knows where he's from at this point, because. Does he know which side he's meant to be on yet? Maybe he's just very confused.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

I suppose the point is that they don't necessarily feel Scottish or English or any of those things at this point, because they have a kind of cross border mentality.

[Greg Jenner]

Mary Lane, how do you think King Edward of England tries to woo Robert over to stay permanently on his team? What do you think he does?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Oh, he gaslights. I don't know how one would be wooed.

[Greg Jenner]

He did the classic medieval thing of offering Robert a young wife to marry. And unfortunately, because it's medieval history, I have to honk my problematic marriage. KLAXON this young wife is way too young. She is 13. Who is. Who is the young Wife that. Because he's already had a wife. Robert the Bruce. We haven't mentioned this. He's already.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Stop.

[Greg Jenner]

He's had a wife already. Right.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I hate him more and more.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

No, no, it's not that bad. So, yes, Robert. Robert has had a wife, Isabella of Mar.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Where did she go?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

She dies in childbirth. She dies giving birth to his daughter, Marjorie. So, yeah, that's one of the other things he has to think about, that he is a widow, he doesn't have a son. He again, has to think about his future. So when he's making these decisions about which side to support, he has to think about that, too. Because who's going to inherit his lands if he dies?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Oh, not his daughter, apparently.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Yeah, well, possibly, but perhaps not preferably.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

So surprised she's not called Roberta.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Greg Jenner]

Actually, yeah. The young. The very young child that he marries offered by the king, England, is Elizabeth. Is that right?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Yeah. So Elizabeth de Bourgh is the daughter of the powerful Earl of Ulster, who is also one of Edward I's chief supporters in Ireland. And, yes, she's 13 at the time of marriage. Robert is 28.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Can you imagine how disgusted Robert's daughter is? They're probably the same age as their bride.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so Robert now marries his second wife, who's not even an adult, Elizabeth de Bourgh, and now becomes Scotland's king.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

No, not yet. Because Edward doesn't want there to be another Scottish king. Robert, having surrendered a couple of years before, thinks he should have been rewarded by Edward by now. And so he perhaps starts thinking again. Well, actually, maybe I should be king. There are two possibilities. Ultimately, it's either going to be Robert Bruce, or it's going to be John Comyn of Badenoch. And it's kind of between the two of them, potentially, as to who might be the Scottish king in the future.

[Greg Jenner]

And these two rivals meet in a church. It's called the Church of the Greyfriars in Dumfries. And it's in February 1306. God is watching. What do you think Robert does in this meeting?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Do they know their rivals?

[Greg Jenner]

They do know their rivals.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

In a kirk.

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Yeah.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

The House of God it is. What do they do?

[Greg Jenner]

What does Robert do?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

So, yes.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Can he get any lower? What does he do in the church?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

So, yes, John Colin ends up dead. Bruce kills him and his. Or else he wounds him and his attendants, then come and finish him off in a church. Unsurprisingly, the English make a lot of this and say that, yes, it's premeditated. Bruce slew. Common Scottish propaganda would suggest otherwise. The idea that it's an argument that there is. There are accusations of betrayal, in fact, that Colin had actually betrayed Robert's planning to Edward I, and so he kills him in a fit of anger.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I'm sorry, but it's a bit rich for Robert the Bruce to be like, hey, you were on Edward's side. How dare you? That's my thing.

[Greg Jenner]

But also, Robert is married to the goddaughter of Edward, so he's, by marriage he's linked to the English king, and yet he's now. He now wants to be king again. So is he breaking the marriage? Is he. Is that a betrayal of sorts?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

It's certainly a betrayal of Edward I. Yes. And Edward takes it very personally. Okay. Edward then summons an army to go to Scotland. Bruce challenges it when it's based at Perth, but he doesn't go about things well, and the English essentially turn it into an ambush and defeat him. And one of his brothers is captured and is Somali executed. His wife, his daughter, his sisters are captured and are imprisoned. Two of the Bruce women, including one of his sisters, is put in a cage, which is suspended from the walls of a Scottish castle.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

He takes Bruce's rebellion and Bruce's betrayal very personally.

[Greg Jenner]

I guess we've skipped a really important point here. Robert the Bruce is the King of Scotland. Like, he sort of. I don't know quite how he's managed it because he's just murdered John Comyn. Has he apologized? Has he. How does he, you know, how does he end up king?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

After the murder, Bruce acts very quickly, so he sends out messages, trying to control the narrative, obviously trying to put across the case that he wasn't the instigator, that he was betrayed, and so it was justified. He also goes to the Bishop of Glasgow to seek absolution from the bishop for the murder, and Bishop Wishart gives him that absolution. He actually forgives him, although the Pope, when he hears about this, does not, and excommunicates Robert altogether. So in the aftermath of that, though, he goes to Scone, he is inaugurated, and he leaves that as King Robert of Scotland.

[Greg Jenner]

He makes himself king. He gets excommunicated. He loses a major battle against Edward. His sisters and his wife are put in cages. His brother is killed. What do you think he does next? Mary Lane.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Sides of Edward again. If I was Robert the Bruce, which I'm thankful I'm not, and I don't think we're that alike, But I think he just goes on a total revenge mission against Edward with all its might.

[Greg Jenner]

He does the opposite. He runs away.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you want to sort of walk us through his escape plan?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

He flees into the west, possibly to the Western Highlands and Islands and. Or to Ireland. We don't know for definite.

[Greg Jenner]

And Mary Lane, there's a very famous story I don't know if you've heard, but at one point, Robert is sort of, you know, hiding in a cave and then finds some inspiration from an animal. Do you know what animal it is?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I do know this story. This was based off the true story of Charlotte's Web.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. A lot more violent, but yeah, yeah.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

He was sitting in a cave and he's ready to give up and he sees a spider and the spider is making its web in the cave and the spider's web fails and he's like, there, see, we're the same. But then the spider attempts again and he's like, oh. And then the web fails again, but then the spider goes again and again and he watches this determination of the spider and he's like, if the spider can go again, so can I. But is that true? Did that actually happen? Did he sit in a cave and watch a spider?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Probably not, no, that's not true. It's a nice story, but no. It's probably one of these things that enters into the kind of myth around Robert.

[Greg Jenner]

He's ready to come back. So what does that mean, Ian? What is the comeback, the Hollywood comeback?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

He plans to come back to Scotland. He sends two of his brothers, Thomas and Alexander, as an advance party to Scotland, but they are captured by his enemies and executed. So he only has one brother left. But despite that, he still sails for Scotland, makes landfall and is able to raise rebellion in the southwest of Scotland. And he wins a couple of victories relatively early on at Glentruell and at Loudon Hill.

[Greg Jenner]

We've got a new enemy to introduce the story. Mario Lane. Edward I comes up to face Robert again for the 19th time and he dies. Right, Ian. And so in comes his son, Edward ii.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

He dies just shy of the border and he orders his son to continue his campaign into Scotland. But Edward II only spends about two weeks in Scotland and then swans off home to start planning for his coronation. From around 1310 onwards, Robert starts raiding into northern England to put pressure on Edward ii. But as time goes on and the Scots repeat this over a longer period of time, they actually start to extract protection money and blackmail out of these communities.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a lovely sheep, you've got there. It'd be a shame if something happened to it. Yeah. I mean, Robert's also taking castles, he's taking English castles and he's doing it quite an interesting way. He's swimming across the moats. They're using fold up ladders, which is quite good. There's also one very fun technique they use Mary Lane. It's evolving. The cows that they've stolen, what do you think that is?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I feel like this is a play on what they did in Troy. But you can't hide an army in a cow. But you could hide in explosives. Did they send in exploding cows?

[Greg Jenner]

I love the idea of exploding cows. It's very Monty Python. You're kind of right with the Trojan thing a little bit. They basically disguise themselves as cows, which I think we have to call camouflage. Right. It's. You're basically sneaking in, sneaking into the castle as a herd of cows, just going, nothing to see here. Moo. And then, yeah, they're really milking it.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

In fairness of English, though, they do do it at dusk, so it's relatively dark. And the English aren't expecting.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

No one's expecting. Expecting the army derby dressed as cows.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Well, no, it's not really as cows. They just throw a cloak over themselves and just kind of like shimmy forward.

[Greg Jenner]

But yeah, but I mean, come on, they're doing the move sound. Of course they are. You have to. You'd have to commit to it, wouldn't you? Okay, so we're now 13, 14, and I think. I think a lot of listeners will probably know that, know that year because of the Battle of Bannockburn. It's the sort of very iconic, famous military victory for Bruce and Ian. Why is Bannockburn a big win for him? What does he do that's so impressive?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

It is the first real large scale Scottish battlefield victory over an English army. And it'll probably be the last one for a while as well. It's also a victory against an English king in the field, which doesn't happen very often. It is a massive victory. You can perhaps say that it's overstated in terms of what it achieves in the long term because the war continues. Edward II doesn't give up. But what the battle does do is give the Scots, give Bruce a lot of English prisoners, and he's able to use them to exchange for various Scottish captives, including his wife, including his daughter, his sisters, and he's finally able to welcome them back to Scotland. And with the return of his wife, of course, he is able to Then look to the future and start trying to produce sons, which, of course, he has yet to do.

[Greg Jenner]

Meanwhile, Robert Bruce has been excommunicated by the Pope a second time. Hooray. Why?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

What did he do this time?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

I think the expansion of the war doesn't go down well. The papacy, let's face it, is all about trying to foment peace in Europe. And so Robert gets excommunicated again. Yes. For extending the war into Ireland.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. But then in 1320 we have the declaration of our broth, which is a big deal.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Yeah. So, but by 1320, not only has Bruce himself been excommunicated, but yes, Scotland as a whole is put under a papal interdict. So no religious ceremonies can take place, services can take place at all. No baptisms, no burials. That's what that censure ensures.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a big deal, right?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

It is. And what the Papacy allows is for Scots to break their oath to Robert I and so to reject him. And the idea there would be perhaps that he would be overthrown and replaced. But none of this effectively works in large part because the Scottish clergy on the whole is supportive of Bruce and supportive of keeping Scotland independent and keeping the Scottish church independent from the English church. Three letters are constructed to be sent to the papacy, only one of which survives today, and that is the famous Declaration of Arbroath. And it emphasizes that the Scots are the victims. It emphasizes that the English are the ones who started the war and that they invaded peace loving Scotland. And it emphasizes very clearly that the Scots support Bruce as the sole and legitimate king.

[Greg Jenner]

He's got his legitimate heir. In fact, he's got two. He's got John and David, who are twins. So he's got twin boys, an heir and a spare. And he's got three daughters, Margaret, Matilda and Elizabeth. So five kids. He's doing well in that regard. By this sort of mid-1320s or so, Robert's not in good health, which I think is important to know. There's a sort of quote saying that he can't move apart from his tongue. But things are also going bad in England because Edward II gets chucked off the throne and then murdered by his wife. So.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

And her lover.

[Greg Jenner]

And her lover. So Isabella, Queen of England, sort of basically does in and puts Edward III on the throne. Does Robert do a deal with the new English king, Edward III or Isabella? Even the mum?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Yes, with Isabella. So Edward III is not yet of age to rule in his own right, and so Isabella is essentially regent for her son. So yes, a series of Agreements are made that are known collectively as the treaties of Edinburgh and Northampton. And this arranges for a. A final peace between Scotland and England. In 1328, Scotland and England reform. A mutual alliance.

[Greg Jenner]

This is it. This is peace. This is Robert, King of Scotland. That's a big, big win. How do you think he celebrated Mary? Elaine?

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

I feel like if we're gonna go by a pattern of Robert's behavior, which is always the opposite of what you should do. I think he thinks when everything's laid on a plate and good, he's like, hey, Edward III is so young. He's just a baby. Let's invade England.

[Greg Jenner]

Is that what he does on this occasion? He doesn't. He does the classic thing of a child wedding, which Ian has already alluded to. So he marries off the four year old son David to the seven year old sister of King Edward iii.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Not John. That's clever. No, so he doesn't marry off the eldest.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

He's dead by this point. So David's the only one left.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, okay, sorry. Right, yes.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

It's not funny.

[Greg Jenner]

It's not funny. But it is, it is funny. Robert, we've already said was in poor health. When did he die, Ian?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

So he dies eventually on the 7th June, 1329, aged 54. We don't really know what killed him. His Italian doctor apparently complained of him eating too many eels, but I don't think that's what killed him.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

That's only going to make you stronger, eating eels. You never get told to do that when you're a child. Finish your eels. That's the goal of Goodlung Arms.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so we don't know what killed him, but we think. Well, I think he died of an unknown illness. There you go, Classic pun. Sorry. Right, moving on.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

The Nuance Window.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Marie, Elaine and I relax with a cup of tea and a scone, or should that be scoon for two minutes while Ian tells us something we need to know about Robert Bruce. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Ian.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Robert is an impressive figure. His is a Hollywood story. Rising from the depths of defeat in 1306 to make himself king, molding a country from the war torn state in which it had sunk into an organized and functioning medieval kingdom. Again, no one would argue that. However, the popular imagination has grown around the belief that everything ended with the peace of 1328 and with Robert's death in 1329. And this isn't the case. Unfortunately, while the King does all he can, he nonetheless ends up leaving Scotland to his five year old heir, David. A long minority is likely to follow and minorities are insecure periods at the best of times, and these are not the best of times. There are those, as the souls conspiracy showed, who continue to not support Robert. They're biding their time and waiting to see what happens next. In England, there's Edward III who hates the peace treaties agreed in his name and is itching to exert his power over his mother and his kingdom. And there are individuals and families who are forced into exile and to abandon their claims to lands in Scotland because they refused to support Robert. And they are also out there waiting for their chance. And these disinherited lords have a figurehead in Edward Balliol, son of King John of Scotland and an alternative claimant to the throne. And so all of this is looming over the horizon as we look forward from Robert's death in 1329. And ultimately his death is not the end of things. Balliol and the disinherited invade Scotland in 1332 and recommenced the Bruce Balliol civil war that Robert I had arguably started himself when he murdered John Comyn in Dumfries. This extends a year later as the English joined the conflict. And so the wars of Independence recommence once more and continue for a further 25 years before the rights and independence that Robert I thought he'd won are arguably won for good. And even then, Scotland is not what it was in 1329. Parts of the borders are lost for decades, Beric upon Tweed, some periods in the 15th century apart is lost forever. And while this is not all Robert's fault, he certainly contributed to the context in which these events ultimately occurred and he set the scene for the years of conflict that followed.

[Greg Jenner]

I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Dr. Ian McInnes from the University of the Highlands and Ireland. Thank you, Ian Benny.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

Thanks, Greg. And thank you, Marielene. It's been lots of fun.

[Greg Jenner]

It has been fun. And in Comedy Corner we had the magnificent Mari Elaine Robertson. Thank you, Mario Lane.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Thank you. This is amazing. I learned a lot and had fun.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you very much. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we do battle with another historical heavyweight. But for now I'm off to go and consult a spider for some career advice. Bye.

[Kirsty Young]

Hi, I'm Kirsty Young and I'm happy to tell you that Young again, my podcast for BBC Radio 4 is back with more conversations with people who fascinate me. In the new series, we'll hear from the comedian Miranda Hart.

[Mary Elaine Robertson]

Part of being human is that we are vulnerable.

[Kirsty Young]

The writer Irvin Welsh.

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

It's quite a thing to be eight years old and then suddenly to have a criminal record.

[Kirsty Young]

And we'll begin with a conversation with the actor Minnie Driver. What do you wish you'd understood about the movie business?

[Dr. Ian McInnes]

It's all ephemera.

[Greg Jenner]

None of it is real.

[Kirsty Young]

Subscribe to Young Again on BBC Science.

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