The Columbian Exchange (Radio Edit)

Summary

Podcast Summary: You're Dead to Me — The Columbian Exchange (Radio Edit)

Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock (Senior Lecturer in International History, University of Sheffield) & Desiree Burch (Comedian, Writer)
Release: 17 October 2025

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Main Theme and Purpose

In this episode, Greg Jenner, joined by historian Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock and comedian Desiree Burch, explores the Columbian Exchange—the profound global interchange of people, plants, animals, goods, and microbes following Columbus’s 1492 voyage. The episode balances historical depth with comedic moments, investigating how the world changed, what was exchanged, and the far-reaching consequences (both delicious and devastating) of this early globalization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is the Columbian Exchange?

[01:09-04:04]

• Definition: The exchange of animals, plants, foods, people, technology, and even microbes between the Americas ("New World") and Eurasia/Africa ("Old World") starting with Columbus’s arrival in 1492.
• Phrase origins: Coined by historian Alfred Crosby in the 1970s; a term criticized for its Eurocentrism.
• Significance: Often argued as the start of globalization, with the world's continents becoming interconnected through massive trade networks.
• Greg Jenner: “The consequences of 1492 shaped the modern world… People, animals, food, plants, eating, even microbes were all introduced to new lands where they are now considered so normal that we don’t even realize they are imports.” [03:24]

2. Columbus as a Figure and Central Myths

[02:27-05:17]

• Columbus was a Genoese (Italian), but he sailed under Spain’s flag after failing to get funding in Italy.
• In popular memory and pop culture, Columbus is mythologized as the 'discoverer' of America, though he landed in the Bahamas.
• Desiree Burch humorously frames Columbus as a historic freelancer: “Okay, he was working his hustle. So for that, we can give him credit.” [03:19]

3. Defining and Debating Globalization

[05:07-06:16]

• Desiree jokingly calls it a “global mosh pit”—a metaphor historian Caroline finds surprisingly apt, as it captures the sudden interconnectedness and turbulence of this era.
• Earlier global networks existed (like Silk Roads), but post-1492 networks became truly worldwide.

4. Historical Tragedy vs. Focus of the Episode

[06:16-06:59]

• Acknowledges the severe violence, pandemics, death (tens of millions of indigenous deaths), genocide, and disruption caused.
• The episode focuses on the “wider world” changed by the exchange, especially plants, foods, culture, with touches of humor.

5. Animals of the Columbian Exchange

[07:00-11:08]

• Pre-1492 Americas: Few large domestic animals; mainly small animals like dogs (Chihuahua), guinea pigs, birds (turkeys, parrots), some wild bison, jaguars.
• No draft animals = no plows; instead, planting was done by manual digging sticks.
• Europeans imported: Cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, horses, big dogs (for war), donkeys—resulting in ecological transformation and ranch economies, especially in Mexico and Hispaniola.
• Memorable moment:
  Desiree: "Guinea pigs, voles, and then a jaguar." [08:16]
• Social effects: The introduction of ranching led to the “arrival of cowboys.”

Animals returned to Europe:

• Primarily birds, especially colorful parrots, which became courtly curiosities and status symbols.
• Columbus brought back parrots as early as his first voyage.
  Dr. Caroline: "Columbus has parrots in October 1492 on his first voyage… 600 parrots that supposedly could all speak French.” [12:14]
• Other exports included insects with economic uses.

6. The Story of Cochineal: Bugs as Big Business

[13:00-14:26]

• Cochineal: A native American insect producing vibrant red dye (carmine), originally used by Maya and Aztecs.
• Became the second most valuable American export after silver—outstripping even gold at times due to ease of transport.
• Led to changes in indigenous economies, with some communities shifting to dye-production over traditional crops.
• Dr. Caroline: “Cochineal becomes such a huge thing that dyes are actually the second most valuable export from the Americas after silver…” [14:00]

7. Plants, Foods, and Culinary Transformations

[14:26-22:28]

• Bananas: Not from the Americas; common misconception.
• Key exports: Brazilwood (valued for both wood and dye); later, rubber.
• Tobacco: Named after Jean Nicot (for nicotine); an indigenous cultural and ceremonial plant that became globally consumed and economically pivotal after being commercialized in Virginia. Dr. Caroline: "Whenever anybody is smoking or chewing tobacco, a pipe, cigarettes, it’s an indigenous practice that’s been exported around the world.” [16:06]
• Diplomacy & Gift-giving: Maya lords brought cacao, maize, chili, feathers, and more to the Spanish court in 1544, introducing the first recorded instance of drinking chocolate in Europe. In return, they received religious objects and bells to spread Catholicism. Desiree: "This is like when Homer gives Marge the bowling ball!" [18:42]

8. Foods Unknown to Europeans Before 1492

[20:09-22:28]

• None of these existed in Europe, Asia, or Africa pre-1492: tomatoes, potatoes, corn (maize), squash, chilies, avocados, pumpkins, papaya, blueberries, peanuts.
• Desiree marvels: “What were Italians eating before tomatoes?” [20:29]
• Dr. Caroline: “All beans, except soybeans, come from the Americas… Maize, beans and squash” are the "three sisters" of indigenous farming. [20:55]
• The spread of chili via Portuguese traders transformed Asian and African cuisines.

9. Luxury Foods and the Social Status of Pineapples

[22:28-23:55]

• Pineapples became the ultimate status symbol due to rarity and difficulty in growing them in Europe.
• People rented pineapples for parties; houses displayed sculpted pineapples as wealth symbols. Desiree: "…before TV happened, entertainment was sparse, was it not?" [23:28]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Desiree Burch (on Globalization):
  “It's global mosh pit.” [05:44]

• Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock (on indigenous diversity):
  “It’s a vast number of peoples with infinite different kinds of beliefs and attitudes… In Mexico alone, you still have more than 60 indigenous languages spoken today…” [09:11]

• Greg Jenner:
  “That’s why it’s called the Colombian Exchange. Stuff comes in, stuff goes out, and all these foods and all these plants and all these animals that are now everywhere in the world, they are being seeded into new lands, into new fields, into new cultures and societies.” [23:55]

• Desiree Burch (on tragedy and food):
  “It’s tragedy plus yummy food, which I think is the story of, like, all cultures.” [24:18]

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:09 | Introduction to the Columbian Exchange | | 04:17 | Origins and Eurocentric framing of the term "Columbian Exchange" | | 05:07 | What is globalization? “Global mosh pit” metaphor | | 06:16 | Podcast’s focus on exchange/culture vs. violence/pandemics | | 07:00 | Animals: pre-1492 Americas vs. post-1492 European imports | | 09:11 | Indigenous diversity and approaches to nature | | 13:00 | Cochineal insects and the red dye trade | | 14:26 | Plant exports (Brazilwood, rubber, tobacco), economic and cultural impacts | | 17:09 | Maya lords visit Spanish court; diplomatic gifts and the first drinking chocolate in Europe | | 20:09 | Quiz: Which foods were only post-1492 in the Old World (all listed = American origin) | | 22:28 | Pineapple as status symbol in Europe | | 24:26 | The Nuance Window: Dr. Caroline’s two-minute reflection on the human cost and indigenous roles| | 26:42 | Desiree’s response to the neglected history of indigenous people in Europe |

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The Nuance Window: Human Dimensions & Forgotten Histories

[24:26-26:36]

Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock offers a powerful reminder that the Columbian Exchange was not just an exchange of goods and microbes—it was a human story, often with tragedy and exploitation forgotten today. Tens of thousands of indigenous people came to Europe: as diplomats, workers, or, most often, enslaved people. Nearly five million indigenous people were enslaved before 1900, many forcibly shipped to Europe. She urges listeners to look for the stories and influence of indigenous people as architects—often invisible—of this global history.

“...what often gets forgotten, I think, is the human dimension in all of this. And when we do hear stories about the people involved, they're nearly always white men… indigenous people too were dragged into the brutal transatlantic slave trade… they're not always easily visible to us in these stories, but they are part of this global history and part of the Columbian Exchange…”
– Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock [24:41-26:36]

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Tone & Style

• Greg Jenner: Light, friendly, always keen to demystify and clarify, asking sharp questions and keeping the flow brisk.
• Desiree Burch: Wry, playful, and quick-witted, using humor to underscore both the absurdity of history and the horrors lurking just under the surface.
• Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock: Knowledgeable, nuanced, and thoughtful, pushing the conversation beyond surface narratives towards deeper understandings—especially about indigenous agency and suffering.

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Takeaway

The Columbian Exchange irreversibly changed the world, making familiar plants, foods, and animals global; creating new economies and cuisines; and, for better and for worse, weaving cultures together. But it is built on stories of violence, colonization, and displacement that must also be remembered—especially the roles and lives of indigenous peoples, too often omitted from traditional tellings.

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For more from Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock, listen to the episode on the Aztecs (series one). For more Desiree Burch, “History of Timekeeping” is recommended. Subscribe and share if you enjoyed this enlightening, entertaining journey through one of history’s most world-altering turning points!

Transcript

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[Desiree Burch]

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[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to Me, a Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are journeying all the way back to 15th century America and Europe and Africa and Asia for that matter, because we are getting to grips with the Colombian exchange. It's an epoch making moment in history which has been described by some historians as the birth of globalization. And joining me to spin our big old globe are two very special guests in History Corner. She's Senior Lecturer in International History at the University of Sheffield. Not only is she a leading historian of the Aztecs, she has branched out across the Atlantic to explore how the indigenous peoples of the Americas traveled to and discovered inverted commas Europe in the 1500s. And of course, you will remember her from our aztecs episode. It's Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock. Welcome back, Caroline. Hello.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Thank you for having me back.

[Greg Jenner]

Pleasure. We're very excited to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, it wouldn't be a proper your're Dead to Me series without our star alumna. She's a comedian, actor, writer and host. You've seen her all over the TV On Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, the horn section. And you'll know her from multiple episodes of this very podc, including recent highlights History of Timekeeping and Paul Robeson, two of my faves. It's Desiree Burch. Welcome back, Desiree.

[Desiree Burch]

Thank you so much.

[Greg Jenner]

What do you know of the Colombian exchange? Is it a phrase you've heard before?

[Desiree Burch]

No. It sounds very sexy. But if it's about Columbus, like not sexy at all, you know as an American, you learn. It's like in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue and you find out that he actually landed in the Caribbean and called it India because he got real mixed up somewhere there about what direction he was heading. But, like, he's Italian, right?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Downy Rinse Advertiser]

So how did he get.

[Desiree Burch]

How did he. Like, I'm gonna leave my nation, go rock up in some other one and be like, hey, I'm gonna do all of this, like, bad stuff for you and bring back a lot of gold, and you're gonna love me and I'm gonna do it in your name. You're welcome. I'm out.

[Greg Jenner]

He was a freelancer. He was a jobbing freelancer. He was, you know.

[Desiree Burch]

Okay, he was working his hustle. So for that, we can give him credit.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is where I guess what our listener might know about today's subject. And I do not think the Columbian Exchange is a phrase people are knowing. But even if the phrase is unfamiliar, you will recognise the stuff that we're talking about today, because the consequences of 1492 shaped the modern world. And that's no understatement. We're talking people, animals, food, plants, eating, even microbes were all introduced to new lands, where they are now considered so normal that we don't even realize they are imports. So it's a massive moment in world history. And in terms of pop culture, the key player is Christopher Columbus himself, who you might recall from the Night at the Museum movie, which ironically, was produced by a man called Chris Columbus. But what do we need to know about the Columbian Exchange? Well, let's find out, shall we, Dr. Caroline? Let's start with the basics. Who was this Columbus fellow and why was he Italian?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

He was Genoese. He was Italian. And he leads expeditions funded by the Spanish crown that in history have been credited with discovering America, even though he actually arrived in the Bahamas. He has four expeditions in 1492, 1493, 1498 and 1502. And in the beginning, he certainly thinks he's discovered India, which is why we call it the Indies, or they called it the Indies. And the term the Columbian Exchange is invented in the 1970s by a scholar called Alfred Crosby to describe this big exchange, as Greg said, and it's a really Eurocentric term because, of course, it puts all the emphasis on Columbus as usual, and white men going out and exploring things as opposed to the exchange. But it's really important to realise that this is a reciprocal exchange.

[Greg Jenner]

Some historians would say 1492 is the beginning of Globalization. Some would say it starts earlier. Desiree, out of curiosity, how would you define the word globalization?

[Desiree Burch]

The way I think of globalization is that I hate to say one big happy family because loads of people are not happy about it, but that essentially we're no longer smaller, distinct cultures, countries, we're all sort of bleeding into one. Imperialism exported a lot of language and other stuff and then they were goods taken. But then suddenly Europe gets, I don't know, a banana or a pineapple or something and everyone's like, woo, I don't know. Mosh pit. It's global mosh pit.

[Greg Jenner]

Global mosh pit is a lovely line. I mean, Caroline, in a sentence, is global mosh pit a useful summary?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

It's not the one I would have gone for, but yeah, it's pretty fair. I think globalization is to do with the beginnings of global networks. And so some people locate it earlier with things like the Silk Roads, but if you look at 1492, networks tend to be within continents, even if they're quite big, or within Africa and Asia. And by the time you get to 100 years later, the trade networks absolutely span the entire world.

[Greg Jenner]

So today, I mean, we are a comedy show and we're looking here for laughs and a little bit of energy. Obviously, this story has a huge amount of cruelty and horror. When you look at the kind of grand scale of it, we're talking here about tens of millions of indigenous Americans dying. It's a story of colonial violence, of genocide, of devastating pandemics. It is not fun, it is not laugh out loud stuff. So we're deciding today not to focus on that. We're going to look instead on how the wider world was changed by the Colombian exchange. This sort of two way spread of animals, foods, plants coming in and out of the Americas. And we're going to start with the cutest of all, which is the animals. If you were running your own ethical zoo and we were going to call it Desiree's Menagerie, what lovely animals would you have in your little zoo?

[Desiree Burch]

Oh my goodness, that would be great. Okay, all the cats, giraffes, because I love giraffes. A bunch of different birds. Just as many birds as we could get to around all of the different colors, because I love birds. I mean, what else? I don't know. You want like a rhino there and you want like random things that you forget are animals like the aardvark and the capybara.

[Greg Jenner]

Caroline, Desiree's Menagerie sounds quite tricky to source, but in 1492 or rather pre 1492 in the Americas. How many of those animals are available on that landmass? I mean, birds. I'm guessing giraffes. No.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Well, if you think of the area that the Spanish arrive in, the Caribbean, lands controlled by the Aztec, Mexica, what's now Mexico, there are very few large animals that you would put in a zoo. You're talking about mostly small animals like dogs, guinea pigs, turkeys and parrots being domesticated. There's some wild game, some deer. There's bison in the north, what's often called the American buffalo, which is pretty big, but apart from that, it's mostly small animals. Small dogs like the Chihuahua, for example.

[Greg Jenner]

Lovely.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

You have little dogs, but not big dogs. But then, of course, things like jaguars, you do have. I'd completely.

[Desiree Burch]

Guinea pigs, voles, and then a jaguar.

[Greg Jenner]

Terrifying jungle cats. And in terms of agriculture, what animals are pulling the plows? You've talked about small animals, so I'm guessing Chihuahuas and guinea pigs are not the ones pulling the plows.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

They don't have ploughs. They use a digging stick is what would be the English translation. So you have mixed agriculture, where you have beans and corn and squash, things like that, together in water, one field. So instead you have a human digging around them. You use manpower, essentially. And if you want to move something, you don't use a large animal, you use water or people.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, when we talk about indigenous peoples, I mean, you've talked about the Mexica, who we might call the Aztecs, and then there's the Inca in Peru. Obviously, there are many indigenous peoples in what we might call North America who. We would also say Native Americans is a phrase sometimes used. They're all different from each other. It's not like this one great big body of people who agree on stuff.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Absolutely. I mean, it's a vast number of peoples with infinite different kinds of beliefs and attitudes. In Mexico alone, you still have more than 60 indigenous languages spoken today, and hundreds of languages have been wiped out. You have hundreds of tribes in North America and Canada. It's an infinite variety of people, but even though they're very different, they do tend to share a slightly different attitude to nature than Europeans do. They see themselves as more interdependent with nature, more alongside animals and other natural forces, rather than simply owning them and exploiting them.

[Greg Jenner]

We do have the Spanish introducing new animals, though, so we're talking today about an exchange. So we have the Spanish arriving In the early 1500s, I suppose, after Columbus, and they're bringing Animals with them.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

So what you have is most of the large animals that we think of as things like cattle. So cows, sheep, goats, pigs, also big dogs, which they use for war donkeys, as you said. All of these domestic animals that are seen as essential to European society are imported really early on. Cows are really key and they make big changes to what happens in the landscape. You have reports as early as the 1520s of herds of like 500 cows on places like Hispaniola, maybe even 8,000. Then you have cattle ranches in Mexico from immediately after the conquest in 1521. And this has devastating effects on the landscape.

[Desiree Burch]

Well, of course, because they were putting all their cow farts into the air already.

[Greg Jenner]

And they're eating, aren't they? Sort of. I guess if you're grazing cattle, they're going to change the landscape and the ecology of an area. And the other thing, of course, is when you get that many cattle and you get ranches, what happens when you get ranches, Desiree, who shows up then?

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, people to rob the ranch, like, I. You know, like once you're there and you're stuck, you're sitting duck, you know.

[Greg Jenner]

It'S true what we get. This is the arrival of, I guess, chaps in chaps, by which I mean cowboys. Some ranches had 150,000 cattle.

[Desiree Burch]

What does that even look like or smell like?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, we've taken animals out into the Americas from Europe, but now let's do the reverse. So what other species, Desiree, are crossing back to Europe from the Americas?

[Desiree Burch]

Interesting. Maybe the bison. If there's anything else that we haven't named that plows, like the llama or that, like, will pull something, probably that. I can't imagine why you'd be like, let's get all these guinea pigs on a boat. Like, that is weirdest version of Noah's Ark I can fathom.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, Caroline, the most obvious one is birds, right? Very keen. I guess, because birds are small, you can put them in cages. But birds are a real hit in Europe, aren't they?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

That's right. A lot of the things that you mentioned to Zeri do get brought back just as curiosities, really, because they want to see these new animals. And it's a period of scientific interest. And one of the things that's most appealing in terms of its appearance is birds. And they have birds of amazing colours. They're thought really beautiful and vibrant and clever. You often see parrots, in particular, trained parrots. Parrots are also a big thing. And other kinds of bird like the Quetzal among indigenous people who use their feathers for clothing and for ritual decorations.

[Desiree Burch]

Is this how pirates got parrots?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

I cannot pretend to be an expert in the pirate parrot kind of conjunction, but. But, yeah, I imagine so, because parrots are being trained really early on and brought across the Atlantic, so they're among the first things to be traded. Columbus has parrots in October 1492 on his first voyage. They start appearing on maps in the 16th century and they start appearing Renaissance paintings. In 1532, a French ship seized by the Portuguese had a cargo that supposedly included all these monkeys and jaguar skins and 600 parrots that supposedly could all speak French.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, bonjour.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, worse than having the French mock you is having French parrots mock you, because they'll just keep at it.

[Greg Jenner]

But let's move to a much smaller animal. Have you heard of the humble cochineal?

[Desiree Burch]

No, but I can't wait to.

[Greg Jenner]

It makes a big impact, or rather a bug impact, because it's a little. It's a little insect sometimes called a beetle. I don't think it is a beetle, but, Caroline, what's a cochineal for?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Well, cochineal is a tiny insect that lives on a kind of cactus and it's native to the Americas. And if you squish it, it creates a red dye, a really vibrant red dye. Maya people and Aztec Mexica people have been using that from at least as early as the second century BCE that we know of it. Colour, colours, ceremonial textiles, things for special events. It's colours, maps, Aztec paintings. The people who draw them are called the painters in red and black, because red is such a big colour in the paintings. And the Spanish really admire it and so they start copying the usage. It's also known as carmine. In Europe, you might have heard it called carmine dye. And it sets really well on wool. So those two things together. Cochineal becomes such a huge thing that dyes are actually the second most valuable export from the Americas after silver, because, of course, they're very light, easy to transport. You can make a lot of money with them. And it transforms indigenous ways of life again because they start growing cacti rather than foodstuff. So we have records of indigenous councils complaining about this basically nouveau riche class of ordinary people who've started making a lot of money. And why aren't they growing the maize like they're supposed to?

[Greg Jenner]

Ah. Let's talk now about plants. Desiree, what do you think is the kind of number one plant exports for.

[Desiree Burch]

Me and my diet? I would say it's gotta be the banana. I certain that, that, that Europe I didn't have bananas because they're very to me associated with like Costa Rica, Central America, whatever. I imagine that's where they came from. But in my head that would be it because I find them so yummy. But I bet you it's something a lot more practical, like rice maybe? No. Did that come from China? I don't know. I just want it to be bananas.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

I don't think bananas are from the Americas. I think they're from Indonesian, the Malay kind of.

[Desiree Burch]

Ah, okay, makes sense, makes sense.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

In terms of plant exports, probably the most important is particular kinds of wood, especially Brazil wood in the early period and then rubber later. So Brazil wood, the fact is called Brazil wood tells you where it comes from. And it's exported partly because it's a very hard wood, but also it makes amazing red dye.

[Desiree Burch]

Again, we are really addicted to red dye.

[Greg Jenner]

I know.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

So the Spanish export cochineal and the French export Brazilwood.

[Greg Jenner]

But let's move on. What product is named after the 17th century French diplomat and scholar Jean Nicault Nicot?

[Desiree Burch]

I had no idea.

[Greg Jenner]

Man N I C O T Nico.

[Desiree Burch]

N I C O. Nicotine.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, there we go, nicotine. So tobacco, so it's a huge part of indigenous life in the Americas. And after the Colombian exchange, it is farmed and grown in the Virginia colony and it becomes one of the most consumed substances in the world. Caroline, doesn't it?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

That's absolutely right. And people, I think, forget that whenever anybody is smoking or chewing tobacco, a pipe, cigarettes. It's an indigenous practice that's been exported around the world. Tobacco in the Americas is seen by various indigenous cultures as essential to physical, social, spiritual, well being. The earliest archaeological evidence for the use of tobacco seeds is around 2500-1800 BCE in Peru. And it's used in really different ways by different indigenous communities in Mesoamerica in ceremonial practice, in an elite practice, you tended to inhale smoke through pipes and cigars. Workers chewed tobacco laced with lime, which alleviated tiredness and thirst and hunger. Supposedly you can use it in symbolic ceremonies. Europeans arriving were often made part of tobacco ceremonies. And it's one of the first indigenous things that Columbus encounters. He's presented with dried tobacco leaves in 1492, on the 12th of October, I think it is, and a ceremonial gift, and then he throws them away.

[Greg Jenner]

We've also got the diplomacy, history, gift giving, which is a really important part of this story, the exchange element. And we do know of, as you said, The Maya people coming to the Spanish court. What is that moment like? How are they speaking to the Spanish king?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Well, this is in 1544, when a group of Maya lords, led by a man who's become a great community hero among the Maya in his area, he leads an expedition to the Spanish court, and several Maya lords come along with Spanish priests who are local and community elders, and they bring all these gifts. They bring with them, though, in relation to the Colombian exchange, all this amazing stuff. So they bring whisk, chocolate, clay pots, chilies, beans, maize, quetzal feathers. Loads of quetzal feathers. And these gifts have really symbolic meanings as well as pranks, practical ones. They're not just showing the riches of where they come from, but also the fact they're making cocoa. And they're the first people to make drinking chocolate in Europe that we know of. There's an earlier record of someone bringing beans, but this is the first record of drinking chocolate, and it's brought by indigenous people made at the Spanish court. And presumably that means there were women who aren't mentioned in the party, because women are usually the people who make the chocolate.

[Greg Jenner]

Ah.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

They have this very successful expedition, and in return, the Spanish king gifts the delegation these huge silver bells for their church, as well as all these other objects, crosses and cloth and religious objects, to spread Catholicism in the Americas.

[Desiree Burch]

This is like when Homer gives Marge the bowling ball, right? Like, it's just like, we gave you all this, like, stuff that's important to us and useful and chocolate, and you're like, here's some Jesus stuff so we can wipe out your religion and your practices.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

There's a little bit more going on to it than that, because actually, our Pop Batz is supposedly the first Maya chief to voluntarily convert to Catholicism. And he does that because he's seen what happens to other communities around.

[Desiree Burch]

Is that voluntarily, then?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Well, that's the thing. Recorded as voluntarily is a careful phrasing. But it does seem like he deliberately realizes that if he acts in this particular way, it will protect his community. It's this amazing story of this incredible journey where they bring them, and the bells are so heavy, they sink into the ground on the way back. And one of them, supposedly, you can still hear ringing under the ground during storms and things, because they can't recover it. It's this amazing community history about that first connection.

[Greg Jenner]

Just a little mini quiz for you, Desiree. Which of these foods were not in European or Asian or African cuisine prior to 1492? Okay. So I'm gonna list lots of foods here, and you tell me which of them was not available. Okay, so tomatoes, squashes, chilies, avocados, pumpkins, papaya, potatoes, blueberries, peanuts. Which of those not available do you.

[Desiree Burch]

Want to give me the list again?

[Greg Jenner]

I'm gonna put you out your misery. Instead, I'm gonna say we've basically cheated you here. Every single one of them is from the Americas.

[Desiree Burch]

I was gonna say, where the heck did you get a papaya?

[Greg Jenner]

So, you know, we think about tomatoes in Italian cuisine. We think about the importance of squash in African cooking. We think about avocados.

[Desiree Burch]

What were Italians eating before? Tomatoes.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Or potatoes. Imagine European food without potatoes or Indian food without potatoes or peanuts. I mean, these are all from the new world, as the Spanish are calling it. These are all from the Americas.

[Desiree Burch]

So the colonialism is so woven into their identity that, like, they wouldn't even have the foods we consider to be Italian without that.

[Greg Jenner]

Exactly that. So, I mean, Caroline, do you want to talk us through some of these? And are there any ones I've missed out?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Well, there are so many, really, that I could just list huge numbers. But some of the ones that we're less aware of Are actually the most valuable in terms of contemporary global trade. So peanut oil and sunflower oil are two of the biggest things to come out of the Colombian exchange, Massively used in terms of modern value. Chilies are introduced to South Asian cooking by the Portuguese, and that's the beginning of a network that leads it then, all across Africa and Asia. All beans, except soybeans come from the Americas. You have these three plants that are so central, don't you, to indigenous cuisine. Maize, beans, and squash called the three sisters that are grown together. Europeans are really, really skeptical of this kind of growing. But you remember, it's only 100 years or so later they realize that you need to do crop rotation because of the land becoming deprived of nutrients, where the beans are putting the nutrients back into the soil, the indigenous people are doing an amazing job of farming. Tomatoes are really, really popular. Of course. They grow, are getting all across Italy and Spain and places by the end of the 16th century. The word tomato is from the Nahuatl language, which is the Aztec language. They become really popular. Potatoes are variably introduced. Ordinary people are eating them quite early on. They recognize their potential. Plus, they're not listed as one of the things you might get taxed on. So, of course, these new things start being eaten more widely because they're not in the list of things where people come and say, give me 1/10 of your. Or corn or whatever it is.

[Desiree Burch]

I will say from personal experience that poverty really will diversify your diet.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's get onto one of my favourite foods, the fanciest of all the foodstuffs, the humble, or rather not humble, pineapple. Caroline, why is the pineapple so exciting for Europeans? And can you tell us about the history of the pineapple?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

It just seems really, really exotic, I think. And also it's very difficult to grow in Europe, which means that it's usually an import at the beginning. So it means you're rich enough to have one of. Basically, it's really, really tasty and unusual for Europeans. Walter Raleigh says no man can express in words the excellence of that fruit so far does it exceed all others. He says they were always very understated, but as they say, it was very hard to grow. So it remains a luxury. And then. So you get these amazing surviving things in European houses where they've sculpted pineapples in the. In the banisters and things, and it's. It's a symbol of wealth and of luxury and a. And also a conversation starter. You put it on your table and people go, oh, what's.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I mean, Desiree, you could actually rent a pineapple for your dinner party.

[Desiree Burch]

Well, I've heard about this. It wasn't until I moved to the uk, because I'm from California, there's pineapples. People will be having pineapples. It's just a sweet fruit. But like, that, that when the pineapple came, like, there were parties, like regal parties, and people be like, yo, Claire got a pineapple at her house. And people would all just be like, we gotta go and look at it. And, like. And I was just like. I mean, before TV happened, entertainment was sparse, was it not?

[Greg Jenner]

So that's a sort of huge global exchange. That's why it's called the Colombian exchange. Stuff comes in, stuff goes out, and all these foods and all these plants and all these animals that are now everywhere in the world, they are being seeded into new lands, into new fields, into new cultures and societies. It's an enormous transition. I mean, it's a really fascinating history, isn't it, Desiree?

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, it's delicious, for sure. It's tragedy plus yummy food, which I think is a story of, like, all cultures.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance window. This is where our expert, Dr. Caroline, talks to us for two whole uninterrupted minutes. And without much further ado. Can we have the nuance window, please, Caroline?

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

It's really easy thinking about this Topic to end up creating this picture of a jolly cosmopolitan world, a place where Europeans and indigenous peoples exchange thoughts and goods and where their cultures and ideas entangled and where we get the roots of all the tasty things that make up our modern world.

[Greg Jenner]

World.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

But what often gets forgotten, I think, is the human dimension in all of this. And when we do hear stories about the people involved, they're nearly always white men. Columbus, Magellan, Walter Raleigh with his tobacco and potatoes, even though he wasn't the first to bring either of those things to Europe. But indigenous people, as we've heard, also crossed the Atlantic from the very moment of first encounter. We heard about the Maya lords at the Spanish court, and it's really tempting to think of them as an exception. But what I want to point out is that in reality, tens of thousands of indigenous people came to Europe after 1492. These are the people who were smoking in the streets of Seville and preparing chocolate in family homes. They helped create the first indigenous alphabets. They demonstrated how to use Brazil wood canoes and hammocks. They transformed European languages and cultures. Some of these people, like the Maya lords, were elite ambassadors. Others were interpreters, traders, sailors, family members, servants. But the majority, and those people who most often get forgotten, were the tens of thousands of enslaved people who were sold into the slave markets of Europe after 1492. Close to 5 million indigenous people were enslaved before 1900, and many of them were shipped to Europe across the Atlantic in appalling conditions. Like many African and African descended peoples, indigenous peoples too were dragged into the brutal transatlantic slave trade. They're not always easily visible to us in these stories, but they are part of this global history and part of the Colombian exchange. And so I want people to remember to look for them when they're thinking about this story.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you so much. Beautifully said, Desiree. I mean, that's a really important final thought, isn't it, from Caroline.

[Desiree Burch]

It's huge. Thank you so much. Because I think we tend to oversimplify our history, obviously, as you well know as a historian, but you don't think about indigenous people being on all of those boats. Indigenous people working themselves into all of these European cultures as well. We don't hear about how important, not just the goods and the products, but the people have been to the formation of global culture and European culture.

[Greg Jenner]

So thank you, listener. If you want to Hear More from Dr. Caroline Dos Pennock, you can check out our episode on the Aztecs way back in series one, or if you're desperate for more Desiree of Course you are. Then you've got plenty to choose from. My personal fave, History of Timekeeping, because we had a lovely, nerdy time and I think you slightly lost your mind at one point about how timekeeping, like, rules the world.

[Desiree Burch]

Yeah, it's overwhelming when you realize it.

[Greg Jenner]

It's a good episode, but if you've enjoyed today's episode, please leave a review online. Tell your pals about the podcast. Share it around. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sound, so you never miss any future episodes, but I'd like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the brilliant Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock from the University of Sheffield. Thank Caroline.

[Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock]

Thank you for having me on again and listening to me ramble about all of these fascinating things.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, the Birch Queen herself, it is Desiree Burch. Thank you, Desiree.

[Desiree Burch]

I mean, it is always a pleasure. I've learned so, so much. So thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely. It's fascinating stuff. And yeah, global history is everyone's history, so, you know, it's all interconnected. But to you, lovely listener, join us next time as we sink our teeth into more tasty historical trouble treats. But for now, I'm off to go and see how much this pineapple is worth on ebay, because I reckon I can rent it out. Bye. You're Dead to me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4.

[Brian Cox]

Hello, I'm Brian Cox. I'm Robin Ince and we're back for a new series of the Infinite Monkey Caves. We have our 201st extravaganza where we're gonna talk about how animals emote when around trains and tunnels or something like that, I'm not entirely sure. Doing one on potatoes. Of course we're doing one on potatoes. You love potatoes. I know, but yeah, you love chips. I'll only enjoy it if it's got curry sauce on it. We've also got Techno Fossils, Moths versus Butterflies and A History of Light. That'll do, won't it? Listen first on BBC Sounds.

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