Viking Women: wives, weavers and warriors

Summary

---

You're Dead to Me: Viking Women—Wives, Weavers and Warriors

Podcast: You're Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Eleanor Barraclough (Bath Spa University), comedian Chloe Petz
Date: August 29, 2025

Episode Overview

This engaging and comedic episode sails back to the Viking Age to explore the realities, myths, and nuances surrounding Viking women. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr. Eleanor Barraclough—whose research and recent book (“Embers of the Hidden Histories of the Viking Age”) centers on the medieval North—and first-time guest, comedian Chloe Petz. Together, they break down stereotypes of helmeted warriors and uncover the full spectrum of Viking women's lives as daughters, wives, weavers, healers, explorers, and, sometimes, warriors. The tone is lively, witty, and rich in historical detail, dispelling pop-culture myths while celebrating the complexity of the era.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Who Were the Vikings, Really?

• Viking Age Context:
  • Spanning late 8th century (c. 793) to around 1100 CE.
  • “Viking” originally meant “raider” or “pirate,” but not all Scandinavians of the era were raiding.
  • Geographic reach includes Scandinavia, British Isles, Iceland, Greenland, down Russian rivers, even to Baghdad.
  • Culture shifts from pagan to Christian around the year 1000 ([05:22], [07:45]).
  • The Viking Age is not a monolithic era—huge variation over time, place, and social class.

What Did Viking Women Actually Do?

• Central to Society:

  • Women essential to textile production—not just for clothing, but for making ship sails crucial to raids and trade ([09:31]).
  • Responsible for food prep, child-rearing, healthcare, and managing households during men’s absences.
  • “Take away the women and you've got nothing. Also, they're doing most of the food preparation… Take away the women and you've got some hungry naked men in a rowing boat.”
    —Dr. Barraclough ([10:15])

• Childhood and Upbringing:

  • Major class and status variation—lives of enslaved girls vastly different from elites.
  • Careers began young, learning textiles and domestic crafts. Some archaeological evidence of toys and play; doll found at Hedeby ([14:39]).
  • “You find evidence of children, young children, in the textile making spaces, you know, across the Norse world…” —Dr. Barraclough ([13:08])
  • High rates of female infanticide, likely due to family/social structures preferring male heirs ([14:27]).

Marriage, Relationships, and Agency

• Arranged Marriages:
  • Often arranged by parents, especially among the elite, for strategic alliances.
  • Some sagas depict resistance and even humor—e.g., Gudríd cuts her husband’s shirt to expose nipples, gets a divorce ([18:27]).
• Divorce & Rights:
  • Divorce socially and legally possible for both men and women; reasons included effeminacy, dissatisfaction in bed, or other causes ([25:37], [26:10]).
  • “There is, yeah, very much the sense of divorce is something that you can… you call witnesses and you say, ‘I'm divorced.’ And it can be all sorts of reasons…” —Dr. Barraclough ([25:53])
  • Widowhood could bring greater agency and control over property ([27:57]).

Notable Characters and Stories

• Gudríd:
  • Married four times with dramatic saga-worthy adventures, skillfully navigated her way through early Icelandic society ([18:27], [24:38]).
• Olga of Kyiv:
  • Avenged her husband's murder by burning ambassadors alive and entire settlements, later converted to Christianity and became a saint ([46:02]).
  • “She lures the noblemen... locks them in the sauna, and then she sets fire to them.” —Dr. Barraclough ([47:36])

Work, Magic & Power

• Women’s Work:
  • Ran large, complex households that could be economic enterprises.
  • Medicine and magic: Women practiced seidr (prophecy/magic) and healing—sometimes using notable folk tests (garlic for wounds) ([35:08]).
  • “Agency, yes. Power, it depends.” —Dr. Barraclough ([35:08])
• Dingja:
  • Special women’s quarters, often used for weaving but also for discussion and socializing—the “stitch and bitch” of the Viking world ([37:29]).
• Spiritual Agency:
  • Runes and magical practices for protection in childbirth and other life events; spells passed through runic inscriptions ([30:03], [32:52]).

Sexuality and Gender Fluidity

• Language:
  • Terms like “fanfluga” (dick deserter) for a woman who avoids men, or “foofluggi” (fanny flea) for men who avoid women ([33:11]).
• Gods and Gender:
  • Norse mythology is fluid about gender—Loki transforms for various purposes, including giving birth ([34:10]).
  • Female magic practitioners called “volva” (seeress/witch, etymological coincidence with "vulva") ([36:30]).

The Warrior Women Question

• Are Shieldmaidens Real?

  • Not just a Hollywood myth!
  • Birka burial (Sweden): Long assumed to be male due to warrior grave goods, in 2017 DNA analysis showed female ([48:45]).
  • The guest and host discuss how we project modern gender expectations onto history ([50:17]) and why we love to imagine female warriors, while acknowledging most Viking women’s agency didn’t derive from swordplay.

• Birka Warrior Burial Debate:

  • Remains suggest possibility of a female warrior, but could also imply diverse gender identities, inheritance customs, or symbolic burials.

Death, Enslavement, and Sacrifice

• Enslavement:
  • Significant role in society, including women and girls taken from raids or other populations ([41:12]).
  • Harrowing account from Ibn Fadlan describes ritual killing of a female slave at a Viking leader’s funeral ([41:16]).
• Elites in Death:
  • Oseberg ship burial: two elite women in Norway, one perhaps a religious specialist ("völva") ([43:27]).
  • Rich burials included lavish goods, animals, and even hallucinogenics (henbane or cannabis seeds)—pointing to status and possibly ritual roles ([44:43]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Take away the women and you've got some hungry naked men in a rowing boat.” —Dr. Barraclough ([10:15])
• “I hope a lot of intense lesbianism, if I’m honest. That must have been more scary.” —Chloe Petz ([08:19])
• “There’s a little doll from Hedeby… I went to see it and all the children in the museum were just gathered around it.” —Dr. Barraclough ([14:45])
• “My favourite one though, is if you're not satisfied in the bedroom… a witch cursed him with a knob so big it was unusable.” —Dr. Barraclough ([27:00])
  “Downstairs Pinocchio is the best thing I've ever... that's amazing.” —Chloe Petz ([27:30])
• “But yes, definitely… they're very much in charge of the household. The household isn't just immediate family… it's quite a community…” —Dr. Barraclough ([35:08])
• “You see one thing and you assume that's what it must be. Now that doesn’t mean she was a practicing warrior… There's all sorts of possibilities.” —Dr. Barraclough ([48:58])
• “Women could be all sorts of different things. And the evidence points in different directions.” —Greg Jenner ([51:04])
• The Nuance Window:
  “Women actually deserve better than that… their lives are so much more nuanced and multi-dimensional, more varied than these cartoon stereotypes.” —Dr. Barraclough ([52:45])

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Viking Age basics & context: [04:18]–[07:45]
• Women’s work—textiles, households, children: [09:31]–[10:29]
• Marriage, divorce, family structures: [16:14]–[28:17]
• Olga of Kyiv's bloody revenge: [46:02]–[47:39]
• The reality of shieldmaidens and the Birka warrior debate: [48:22]–[50:17]
• Sexuality and gender in language and legend: [33:11]–[34:10]
• Runes, magic, medicine: [30:03]–[32:44]
• Nuance Window—challenging stereotypes, finding the truth: [51:15]–[53:14]
• Quickfire Quiz—review and wrap-up: [54:03]–[56:32]

---

Conclusion & Final Thoughts

This episode offers a refreshingly complex look at Viking women, busting through simple images of shieldmaidens and docile housewives. The hosts and guests emphasize the diversity of experience—by class, geography, era, and even myth—using sources ranging from grave goods and runes to saga literature and cross-cultural encounters like that of Ibn Fadlan. The episode ends with the recognition that agency and power took many forms, sometimes subtle, sometimes spectacular—and that histories which embrace nuance are both richer and more accurate.

Summary Quote:
“Women themselves are nuanced. When we look back in history and these hyper masculine periods... it's even more important to meet them on their own terms.” —Dr. Eleanor Barraclough ([52:45])

---

Recommended Episodes:

• Leif Ericson (for more on Viking exploration)
• Norse Literature
• Warrior Women: Njinga of Ndongo and Matamba

---

For further reading:

• “Embers of the Hidden Histories of the Viking Age” by Dr. Eleanor Barraclough

---

Listener Takeaway:
Viking women contributed far more than modern legend admits: they made sails for conquest, healed wounds, managed economies, crossed oceans, and even sometimes led communities and armies. History, like textiles, gets stronger the more threads (and voices) you include.

Transcript

[Chloe Petz]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

[Narrator (History's Heroes)]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Join me, Alex von Tanzelman for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, Greg here. Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of youf're Dead to Me are released on Fridays. Wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are loading our loom weights and launching our longship as we sail back to medieval Scandinavia to learn all about Viking women. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian, writer and broadcaster based at Bath Spa University where her research focuses on the cultures, literatures and languages of of the medieval North. You may have read her sensational new book, Embers of the Hidden Histories of the Viking Age. It's a wonderful book and you will definitely remember her from our episode on Leif Eriksson. It's Dr. Elena Barraclough. Welcome back, Eleanor.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yay. Thank you so much for having me back.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, they're an award winning. Sorry. And in Comedy Corner, they're an award nominated stand up comedian.

[Chloe Petz]

When it comes to awards, I am famously always the bridesmaid, never the bride. And what you just did. Your mouth typo just cut deep.

[Greg Jenner]

So sorry, gu. Okay. And in Comedy Corner, they're an award nominated stand up comedian. You might have seen them on TV on Celebrity Pointless, Richard Osmond's House of Games, Jonathan Ross Comedy Club, or commenting on the women's football Euros on Sky Sports. Maybe you caught their recent Stand up tour, how youw See Me, how youw Don't. Awesome. Supporting Ed Gamble. It's Chloe Petz. Welcome to the show, Chloe.

[Chloe Petz]

Thank you so much for having me. It was so beautiful as well because I get this is my first time meeting you and I get the impression that you're such a lovely man.

[Greg Jenner]

No Monster.

[Chloe Petz]

We really felt like your. Your mistake cut you to the core. Whereas that's probably the funniest thing that's gonna happen to me today.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm pretty sure you're gonna win an award anytime soon.

[Chloe Petz]

Okay. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Anyone listening? Please give Chloe an award. So I look like a prophet?

[Chloe Petz]

Manifestation.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. I put it out into the universe and it's coming back to you, Chloe. First time on the pod?

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

How are you with history? Did you like it at school? Are you comfort zone?

[Chloe Petz]

I did like it.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I think I did it for A level.

[Chloe Petz]

Did I do it for A level, you think?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Did I do it for you?

[Greg Jenner]

You're not that old.

[Chloe Petz]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

You did it for A level.

[Chloe Petz]

I think I must have because I really liked it.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Did I do it for A level?

[Chloe Petz]

Now I'm going to list my A levels. I definitely did English because I did that at uni. I did maths.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh.

[Chloe Petz]

History. Theatre studies. Oh, and then I did classics as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Double history. Double.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I did double history.

[Chloe Petz]

I forgot that I even did one History. Look, I loved history. It was probably like my top two subjects were English and theatre studies. And then history was like my subsidiary. And I had a great teacher. Two great teachers. Ms. Swinley, Dr. Gardner. Lovely people. Yeah. Shout out them. And, you know, it must be the classic. Like, it was a lot of Henry VIII, a lot of World War II. The area of history that I enjoy the most, because I really like consuming history via novels. So I'm a big fan of, like, the Victorian era and the Regents.

[Greg Jenner]

Gotcha. One of my areas of specialty. So if I say to you Vikings, did your brain just go? No.

[Chloe Petz]

Slightly. Yeah. I mean, I don't have any sort of context of really where they're located in history. They seem like kind of vacuum packed in their little. In their little section. So, yeah, getting a bit of, like, context of where they're located in human history will be really interesting for me today.

[Greg Jenner]

We can do that, can't we?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Definitely do that.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? Now, this is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I reckon when you hear Viking, you're probably thinking big hairy men in historically inaccurate horned helmets. No horns. But today we're horning. Ah, sorry. Honing in on the women. Now, you might be imagining fearsome warriors tossing axes while tossing their immaculate blond braids. And maybe you're thinking also of the mythological Valkyries made famous in Wagner's opera And the Marvel Thor movies. Of course, you might have seen the TV show Vikings with the scary shield maiden Lagertha and her bloody post divorce glow up. Or you've watched Skade, the sinister sorceress in the Last Kingdom. But what's the truth behind these pop culture portrayals? What was life really like for the average Viking gal about town? And how many people can you incinerate and still be made a saint? Let's find out. Right, Eleanor, let's start with the basics, because Chloe said vacuum packed them for it for us, so.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So get my scissors out.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, Scissors out.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's seal them up, put them in.

[Chloe Petz]

A nice water bath.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

They would like that. Let's give some dates. Okay, so we're talking first raids that we know about. We think of Vikings being sort of really raidy on the British Isles end of the 8th century. So like 793 classic raid on Lindsfarne, possibly a little bit before then. All right, and then how long the Viking Age goes on for sort of depends on how we're defining it, but let's say kind of up to 1100. Except a lot of the evidence actually comes from after that, so we're pushing it. So if you think of the year round, 1000, they're definitely hanging around then. And then like a few centuries either side. Yeah. And then that word Viking, there's an old Norse version of the word Vikingr, which means a raider or a pirate. But of course, not everyone in the Viking age is going to be a raider or a pirate. So it's sort of like, roughly speaking, the age in which that happens. Then, in terms of where we're talking geographically, the homelands of Scandinavia. So Denmark, Norway and Sweden, that's where it all starts. Except a really exciting thing about the Viking Age is that it's all about expansion, colonization, exploration. Quite a lot of sort of, you know, radies, sort of quite bloody invasiony type things as well, which we'll talk about. But, you know, this is sort of a very culturally sort of, you know, people are coming into contact with each other in. Across this vast area. So, you know, they expand across the North Atlantic. They make it all the way to Iceland and Greenland, even to the edge of the North American continent around the year 1000. They go east down the waterways of what's now sort of Russia, Ukraine. They end up in the Byzantine Empire, which is centered on what's now Istanbul in Turkey. And then they end up further east than that. They end up sort of around Baghdad. That sort of region so they're really far traveling, and that's a really important part of what they are. But also because it's over sort of several hundred years, there are big changes over that time. So, for example, they start pagan. You might have heard of the Viking sort of Norse pantheon of gods like Odin and Freyja and Thor and Loki. But then around the year 1000 or so, we see this sort of conversion to Christianity, roughly speaking. So it's a really interesting tipping point that the Viking Age exists. Is that sort of sufficiently un. Vacuum packed for you?

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, that's amazing. And I think what's so interesting about history and the way that we teach it in this country, I do think we're really bad at contextualizing and localizing where things sit because, like, the fact that you're like, the Vikings went to the Byzantine lands is like. It feels like a Marvel DC kind of crossover.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

They knew each other, like, they saw.

[Chloe Petz]

The big, hairy, ginger men.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Okay. So, Chloe, what do you imagine the Viking women were up to while the lads were on tour? You know, they're off doing all these gallivanting around half the world. What are the women up to?

[Chloe Petz]

I hope a lot of intense lesbianism, if I'm honest. That must have been more scary.

[Greg Jenner]

There's probably some. I mean, let's be honest, there's probably some.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Oh, yeah, there's. There's sort of later prohibitions against it, which suggests people are up to things. Yeah, definitely.

[Chloe Petz]

Is that sort of the thing that I'm interested in? Why did the Christianity come in? Or is that something you'll get to?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, the Christianity. So it's like the whole. The whole of sort of Western Europe is Christianizing, in fact, sort of, as far as the Viking Age is concerned, they come to it quite late. And so, you know, Charlemagne 800, he's trying to sort of push north from what's now Germany, France, Christianize, going north, and then above them in Denmark, you've got a lot of contact, and then this spreads. And so sort of it gets to Denmark first and Norway, and then the Norwegian king is sort of like, all right, Iceland, you want to be thinking about this. Greenland, you want to be thinking. So it's just part of this. This big movement that's going on at the time.

[Greg Jenner]

We've spoken to a certain extent about men and kings and so on, but we need to talk about women. Right. So we're talking. We're trying to reframe the picture because I think it's quite easy to think of men in their longboats going off to pillage and to plunder and to settle. So how do, how did the women. What is their life like? How does it, how does it sort of fit into that story?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, there's no Viking age without the women for start, you know, so. So if you, if you. So for a start, it's things like that sound a little bit tedious or worthy if you're, if you're into Vikings because they're glittery and cool and fun and dramatic things like textile production, you need clothes, but you also need sails to. If you're going to go across the ocean, if you're looking to trade or to raid or to settle or to colonize, find new lands, you need wind power to actually get across that ocean without the women. You don't have sails, you don't have clothes. You also don't have children. And that's because obviously some people are having the children, but other people are also helping bring up the children, you know, so you need that next generation. So on a very, very basic level, take away the women and you've got nothing. Also, they're doing most of the food preparation. They're looking after the houses when. When all the long houses and the farms, when sort of the men might be on their hunting or their raiding expeditions, whatever it is. And so take away the women and you've got some hungry naked men in.

[Greg Jenner]

A Rowing, which is a Channel 4 documentary that I would watch.

[Chloe Petz]

Was there monogamy or did the men have multiple partners?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So it's not entirely clear, but it looks like, yeah, particularly if you're high status and male, you could have more than one woman. Maybe there's a sort of concubinage system, something like that. Certainly the sort of later written accounts, the sagas that are written later on. But look back to the Viking age, some of them. Again, the suggestion is there, would it.

[Chloe Petz]

Get to the point where like, the. The men were going and like pillaging and bringing women back and then was there like jealousy and stuff?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So, yeah, in the sagas again. So sagas just say they're written down in iceland in the 13th century, but there's a group of sagas called the Isleninger Sor, the sagas of Icelanders. And a lot of them look back to those first centuries of settlement in Iceland. So Iceland is settled that the sort of second half of the ninth century. All right, so we're sort of in the Viking age proper at this point and exactly that. So there's one where I think it's Luckstyler saga where someone basically goes abroad and he ends up in this slave market, essentially, where, you know, people are bidding for women. And he gets really excited because there's someone he really fancies and everyone's a little bit embarrassed. He's bidding huge amounts of money for her, gets her, brings her home to Iceland, and his wife is absolutely furious, as you would be, understandably. Exactly. Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

You didn't pay any money for me.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes, but this is it. And in fact, in that particular examples, the concubine, the enslaved person, whatever it is, who's brought back to Iceland, she turns out to be, according to the saga, because, of course, she's not going to be an ordinary person, turns out to be the daughter of an Irish king, and she, you know, has this child. And it's all very much so, but it gives us a sense that, yeah, British Isles and Ireland are very much the context for a lot of these women.

[Greg Jenner]

We need to start, I suppose, with the life of women, actually. Let's start with girlhood. Right. What would you expect of a Viking girl's upbringing? Chloe?

[Chloe Petz]

She's probably getting taught just to do the classic stuff, the food making.

[Greg Jenner]

Skateboarding. Yeah, yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

She's a couple of ollies. Yeah, yeah. I think probably skateboarding. Yeah. You took the words out of my mouth.

[Greg Jenner]

Sorry, I'm dead.

[Chloe Petz]

Is it skateboarding?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, skateboarding. Sorry. I ruined it there. You're making a very sensible point, and I ruined it.

[Chloe Petz]

No, I think it's important. I think it's important that we allow intrusive thoughts to win on this podcast.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Skateboarding. Eleanor. I mean, I think. I think Chloe's point about, you know, food preparation and, you know.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

Domestic chores.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Domestic chores, really? So it's really important to say up top. There's no such thing as an average experience. We've got to think, you know, we've already said the Viking age extends over hundreds of years. You've got your homelands, you've got this sort of Norse cultural sphere, but you've also, you've got a really big geographical area as well. And then within that, you've got lots and lots of different social strata. And so someone who is, say, you know, a young child who is enslaved is going to have a very different experience growing up compared to someone who is much further up that social pecking order. But exactly as you say. Yeah, a lot of it's going to be learning from a young age, domestic crafts and sort of textile manufacture. It's really interesting in. You find evidence of children, young children, in the textile making spaces, you know, across the. The Norse world, in the archaeological record. There's one from Norway. It's. It's little bits of sort of. I think it's birch sort of SAP or something. And some child has been using it as chewing gum. And it's so cute. And again, it's. It's in the context of textile production. So there's that. There's also slightly less pleasant stuff. So, for example, it looks like there's a higher rate of fever. Female infanticide.

[Chloe Petz]

I was wondering whether that might be the case.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, yeah, that. That seems likely. It's really hard to prove it.

[Greg Jenner]

So just to be clear, that that is the deliberate killing of little baby girls because you don't want a girl, you want a boy.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

Which is horrible. We know we're a comedy show, but that is, you know, we have to talk about this stuff. It's cruel toys.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, this is the lovely thing. So these are not many. And. But if we're talking about young female children, you know, it's. It's. Again, it's hard to say, okay, this definitely belonged to a little girl, but there is evidence of children's toys. My favourite is from Hedeby, sort of on the border between northern Germany and southern Denmark, as it is now. And this was a trading town, really early trading town. And there is this little doll made of probably sort of antler or bone, you know, and it's. I mean, it's adorable. I went to see it and all the children in the museum were just gathered around it. You could see, they just wanted to pick it up. And her little hands. It looks like a girl. I don't obviously know that it's a. It's a female doll, but the doll's little hands are sort of like splayed onto its tummy and it's got this little hair. It's. So you just. It just looks like a doll. Yeah, you know, that's what it is. But then there's other things. You get swords and you get boats and things like that, but the little dolls.

[Chloe Petz]

So was there any culture of play amongst kids?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

That's a really good question. Well, I think there's a very. I don't know what you think children play. Play is sort of a universal impulse, partly because it is. It helps you to sort of work out the society, the world in which you live in. You know, you're role playing to some extent, so you're sort of making sense of that imaginative world as well. The question is, at what point does that stop? And I think that certainly compared to today, you know, at the point where, yeah, children nowadays might be going out on their skateboards. You know, these girls are probably in there learning how to weave.

[Greg Jenner]

So they've already got a job at 8. So if you survive being murdered at birth as a girl, they're like, put you to work at 8.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

All right.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

That's great, isn't it? Does it improve for teenagers? Like, you know, is it. Is it fun?

[Chloe Petz]

You know the answer to that.

[Greg Jenner]

I don't know the answer.

[Chloe Petz]

It's not going to improve for teenagers if they're killing girls at birth and then putting them to work at 8. I don't think all of a sudden they're going to be like, okay, off you go into the world now you can go to university.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But can I tell you something nice that quite recent findings, right. Ice skates. Greg's great. People think those archaeologists have looked at evidence for ice skates from the Viking age made from bone, and they now think that it was probably older children and teenagers who were using those skates. So they had some fun, you know, which I just think is adorable.

[Greg Jenner]

That is charming.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But, yes. So again, I'm gonna say this. Basically, I'm just covering my ass up. It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell, right.

[Greg Jenner]

Otherwise, archaeologists, they'll write in, won't they?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

They'll get angry letters, red ink.

[Greg Jenner]

Dr. Barakat said, I heard it on the radio.

[Chloe Petz]

That's not red ink, that's blood.

[Greg Jenner]

There are very angry people, archaeologists.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

It's the Viking rain. So, yeah. So essentially, when you, when get to sort of be of childbearing age and pretty young, marriage is obviously on the cards. And that is an important part of teenagehood, as you sort of head towards the. The latter part of that, if you're lucky.

[Greg Jenner]

And do the girls get to pick their hubbies or does dad go, I've chosen Sven, he's exactly what you need.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I think more to the point, exactly what I need, you know, is it. And I think that's it. And it depends. There's so many different contexts in which that could happen. And I'm sure there are some marriages where it's like, oh, look, they like each other. They live on neighboring farms. This makes sense. But of course, particularly if you are sort of socially elite, then you want to make good matches for your children because that is strategically advantageous to you. So there's going to be. Yes. And certainly once again, when you look at the Latest saga evidence. Bearing in mind sagas are not history, as we would think of history. They're stories. But they do sort of reflect something of that earlier time and the time in which they're written. But certainly, yes, it's. It's. It's. I have picked out. You're going to be marrying him whether you like it or not. When that happens, I should say, it doesn't usually end well. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Oh, there's one. Really? Again, like, stylistic. I mentioned that Guthrin, who's this badass woman who ends up with four husbands.

[Chloe Petz]

And I like to hear more about Guthrin, actually.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Oh, Guthrin's great. We can come back. We can just.

[Greg Jenner]

We'll get to her later. She's in.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But her first husband, again, it's. Her father chooses it. Him for her, and she absolutely can't stand him. And so she makes a shirt for him where she cuts it so low that his nipples poke out. And this is grounds for divorce because it's sort of effeminacy. It's like you can't be going around with your nipples.

[Greg Jenner]

You can't have your nips out.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

You can't have your nips out. Even back then.

[Chloe Petz]

Well, actually, men are allowed their nips out, aren't they?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But that.

[Chloe Petz]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Only on a hot day in England, not in Iceland.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

In the middle.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, okay, fine.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. So we. But we do have one source from Bergen where there's a sort of. There's a little evidence of a. I don't know, is it a dad saying, I found a guy for you, but you don't have to marry him? Like, it's kind of. It's like. It's real, like, dad energy. It's like, he's not. He's really nice, but you don't have to marry him. It's okay if you don't want to.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So I prefer your reading of her. I suspect she was not quite as happy as. That makes sense. So this is from. Again, I was saying, like, a lot of the source material is later and we. With this, we're talking around 1300. Okay. So this is like, pretty late. It's a runic inscription on a piece of wood. Right. And it's found in a stave church. So again, we're very much in a Christian context. So it's from someone called Hallvard. And he's proposing to someone and we only know that her name starts with a G and possibly a U. And he basically says, it is my full intention to marry you, but only if you don't want to marry Kolbein. And so there's some. But what I love about this is that it's found on the side of the church that probably the women sat in because they're, you know, separated. And someone, probably her gu. Has tried to scribble out these names and has dropped it between the floorboards.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, rejected.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, that's exactly. So it's like, I just want to know what was the tea?

[Chloe Petz]

You know, it's like, so, wait, sorry, what did she write on?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So Halvard writes it on a piece of wood in runes, and he basically says, I want to marry you, G. Whatever this woman's name is. But only if you don't want to marry Colbank.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's not a dad. That was me getting excited as a dad. It's a boyfriend saying, I want to marry you. Unless you fancy Colbey.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, we say boyfriend, but I mean, just the number of contexts. That could be just like some creep. And she's like, oh, God, this is so embarrassing. I don't want to find out.

[Chloe Petz]

Is it like that thing where, like, you pass a note in class, basically?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Passing a note, do you want to be my boyfriend? Yes.

[Chloe Petz]

No.

[Greg Jenner]

And she scribbles up, drops it down a hole. Perfect. Right, moving on. Wow. There's another lovely rune stick that I love. It tells us about what happened after a couple have got married. It's also in Bergen in Norway, which is a lovely place to go on holiday. It's great in it. Lovely, brilliant place to go. It's from a lady called Gyda. She's sending it to her husband. What do you think she's saying in the message?

[Chloe Petz]

Get home now, you're drunk.

[Greg Jenner]

Literally is. How did he know that?

[Chloe Petz]

Because it's a tale as old as mine. And do you know why I knew that is because when I was in Bergen, I was. I was there with my mate and she was like, do you want to go up this big hill and see a site? And I was like, no, I want to go pub, watch Man United game and get drunk. Taylor's oldest time.

[Greg Jenner]

Taylor's oldest time. That is literally what it is. That is literally it.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

That was it done. Right. On the other side, though, it looks like one of those drunk messages, you know, you send by text or something. Now, we don't know that they're married, we don't know that it was a pub, blah, blah, blah. But it's likely. So. But on the other side, someone has tried to reply, it looks like. But you can't read it. So I'm just imagining him down the pub, basically trying to be like, yeah, it's fine. She'll never know I'm down.

[Greg Jenner]

So she's saying, get home from the pub.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Get home.

[Greg Jenner]

And he writes, he's written back. I'm an important work lady.

[Chloe Petz]

How many like pieces of evidence do you think of, like flummoxed historians which are just drunk and rambling. People are like, there's a new language that's.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

There's loads of those from the Runestics in Bergen. Things like sort of what's it. Sit down and carve the runes, stand up and fart. That's a good.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

And there's. There's another one, probably from a pub. There's gonna be a big fight in here. I wish I could go to the pub more often. There's also.

[Chloe Petz]

I think I would have made such a good Viking. What was their alcohol of choice?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Ooh, beer mead.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. They're not wine drinkers really, are they, the Vikings? I mean, they. Later on after Christianity. Maybe they are in a religious context, but yeah, Ale and mead.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Isn't that like.

[Greg Jenner]

Ale and mead is made of honey. So it's a sort of.

[Chloe Petz]

Oh, God, I've never tried it, but.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I would love to. Oh, it's really good because I love.

[Chloe Petz]

Beer and I love honey.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, you'd probably like me.

[Chloe Petz]

Maybe I'll just do like a. A beer with a shot of honey. Like a Jaeger bomb. Oh, make my own meat.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Nice.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

You would make the best Viking.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. What else have we got that are giving us insights into relationships, primarily giving us, you know, look into lives of women in this era?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, so there are. We've got, again, we've got literary sources. As I mentioned, the sagas, those are actually quite important. I mentioned like stylist sagas. I mentioned Guthrin. Right. She's a great one. Again, she's. She's later on, there's all sorts of context for her. But when we just look at how she operates within a world that is very clearly frameworked around men. This is a great one. So I mentioned her first husband. She managed to get a divorce from him because she's cut the shirt with the nipples. The second one is brilliant. So the second one, Thur, the bloke, he's already married to someone called Euther or O. And basically Guthren says, oh, well, you know, I. I mean, I hear that she's a bit of a cross dresser. You know, she gets known as Britches Oddr. Around town. Well, it's even better. Right, so then this. That he. He divorces britches. Either marries Guthrin and is lying in bed one night and either is like, right, you're going to accuse me of this? Well, thank you very much. So she dresses up in britches and she takes a sword and she goes. And she basically cuts him across the nipples. Nipples again. Yep.

[Chloe Petz]

Oh, I don't like that. That made me upset.

[Greg Jenner]

That's gonna be very sore in the morning.

[Chloe Petz]

That made me upset. I didn't like that.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, but I mean. And then the next husband from there, she basically gets the most Icelandic thing. She meets this bloke in a hot spring, basically, and she falls in love with him, but then she ends up married to his foster brother and then she gets the foster brother to kill her original lover. So it gets.

[Chloe Petz]

Chill out.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah. So you have those sorts of sources, but you've got to think for that it's, you know, that's a literary weird way.

[Greg Jenner]

It's EastEnders, right. It's full on soap opera, so more drama than Love island or Love Iceland, I guess, maybe. Let's. Thank you. I did not write that one. So. So let's. Let's move on. Can a man divorce a woman easily? We've said that a woman can divorce a man if he's, you know, so can.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

There's divorce. Legally and culturally accepted.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

Can I ask, just to clarify, how does marriage and coupledom relate to what we know now? Because if. If they didn't have Christianity at this point, was marriage was still an institution.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

You marry, it's sort of like that. There will be a kind of social context for that. When we're talking about Guthrin, I should say they're on the cusp of Christianity. They're around the year 1000, in fact, Guthrin ends up becoming a nun or something, you know, so. And is then. Then very upset about the things. She.

[Greg Jenner]

Gay. So.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But she. So. So there is. Yeah, very much the sense of divorce is something that you can. You call witnesses and you say, I'm divorced. And it can be all sorts of reasons. And this is true, I think, of the men and the women. So as far as the. The important thing is that women can do it too. So it can be things like, you know, if he's. If he's too effeminate. Hence why Guthrin is able to do it when she's cut this shirt. My favorite one, though, is if you're not satisfied in the bedroom. And so, yeah, there's one again. We're talking sagas but you know, you. Okay, let's. You know this is the eastenders version once again of it. But. But basically this woman has to go to her dad because he's the sort law giver and she's like, right, dad, this is really embarrassing. I don't know how to tell you this but essentially I want to divorce him because every time we try and I think they said come together, you know, which is like.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

His. A part of his body grows so big that he's not able to actually do anything with it. Turns out he's been cursed by witch. Of course he's been cursed by which. Who used to be his lover.

[Chloe Petz]

Right, Wait, hang on, hang on. He's been cursed by a witch with a knob so big. Yeah. It's unusable.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I'm assuming this is going the podcast, not the radio.

[Greg Jenner]

This is definitely not the Radio 4 edit. Is it the Viagra curse.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But like pretty much that.

[Greg Jenner]

Pinocchio. But like downstairs Pinocchio. Every time he lies with her, his knob gets bigger.

[Chloe Petz]

Downstairs Pinocchio is the best thing I've ever. That's amazing.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. So you could be dumped if you're not good enough in bed. You could be dumped if you're too impressive in bed or whatever.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that could be quite good for you as well. So if you're particularly sort of for widows, they seem to have. And we're talking again, if you've got the money and the sort of household.

[Greg Jenner]

To back it up, you've got.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Once you're a widow, you've got more agency.

[Greg Jenner]

I was gonna say. So the interesting thing about the Viking age, historians often say that women in the Viking era were better off than anywhere else in the Viking. Sorry, Anywhere else in the European Christian world. Like they had more rights, more laws, more freedoms. We've heard maybe that's not entirely true. There's quite a lot of pressure so on. But yeah, widowhood kind of is. That's kind of a quite.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

That's what you're aiming for.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the idea. Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But you have really. I mean. So for example, we mentioned ICELAND being settled second part of the 9th century. Some of the first settlers, the big settlers are women. There's one in particular, she's called either or unr. The deep minded. And it's only once she's a widow she able. She sort of gathers her family and her followers and her sort of like slaves at that point around her and takes them off to Iceland. Frees the enslaved people and sort of sets up this sort of matriarchy out there.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, this community of women. Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

She's the. I mean, she ends up. It's on the night.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

[Narrator (History's Heroes)]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Join me, Alex von Tanzelman for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I think it's her grandchild. On the night of her grandchild's wedding, she dies upright in bed, having basically just sor. Sorted everyone out. She's again. She's an EastEnders matriarch.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, exactly. Get out of my pub, Longhouse. Sorry. Okay, we should talk about a childbirth, which obviously, you know, you mentioned before that obviously in order to keep having Vikings going out into the world, you need children that grow up and we need. We need babies. I mean, obviously, childbirth is dangerous at any time in history. In the Viking world, there are. There are kind of rituals, routines, there's magical spells, there's all sorts of ways of trying to protect a woman in childbirth and a baby.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Can you talk us through some of those?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, so, I mean. Yeah, exactly as you say. So. So mortality rates were huge.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

You know, as they always have been. There's a really touching grave from Orkney, Rousey. And it's a woman, a very high status, again with a little brooch that seems to have once upon a time been sort of from the. The very beautiful blingy cover of a gospel book. So somewhere in the past. So she's from sort of the. I don't know, like 850 to 900, something like that. But somewhere in her sort of ancestry, someone was doing a raiding, you know, comes back with this. But she is. She's buried with an infant who's full term. And so the likelihood is that she. She's died in childbirth and so is the child. So exactly as you say that there has to be measures in place. One of these is called. They're called Bjag Runar, sort of helping runes, Runes of protection. Those seem to have been used. We've got like, sort of just evidence on the edge. Often with childbirth, with pregnancy, everything is on the edge because it's female histories and they don't, you know, they Just don't get recorded. But we have sort of a few little runic inscriptions that might sort of back that up. There's an amazing. Again, it's later. It's very much within a Christian context, but it's a rune stick. And it looks like basically the baby's gone over term and is still, you know, inside. And this runic inscription is to the baby, and it ends and it says, come out, hairless one. The Lord calls you into the light.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I love that one. Yeah. But then there's. Once Christianity comes, you know, so. So it's likely that there would have been sort of pagan goddesses and deities that you would pray to. Yeah, exactly. That's the light.

[Greg Jenner]

And then In Christianity, it's St. Margaret, famously.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

You know the story of St. Margaret?

[Chloe Petz]

I don't think so.

[Greg Jenner]

It's pretty cool. She cuts her way out from the inside of a dragon's tummy, like he's been swallowed. And then she's like, I'm not having this. And sort of bursts out the tummy like a chestburst or an alien. Hello, I'm here. So she's the patron saint of women in labor and pregnant women. She knows she's. And that's who you pray to. Right. In the medieval world.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

And they haven't.

[Chloe Petz]

He is so mental. That's the one that you're gonna choose is the woman that birthed.

[Greg Jenner]

She's badass.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But I always feel sorry for the dragon. I've got to say, having given birth, I'm looking at those pictures and the manuscripts of the dragon, who's just absolutely horrified. This thing bursts out. I'm like, mate, I hear you.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chloe Petz]

Okay, please, can we just clarify what a rune stick is?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes. Literally a little piece of wood with runes written on it. Runes are that spiky Alphabet, sort of. It's sort of a North Germanic Alphabet. It's not just Viking age, but they use particularly in the Viking age and the centuries before and afterwards.

[Greg Jenner]

Slightly magical, aren't they? Runes? Slightly. They have kind of.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Kind of associated with Odin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

So is it like a. Is it like a. Like a prayer thing? A manifestation thing? If I wanted to win an award, for example.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

I'd be able to write a rune stick.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Rune stick Inscription. Yeah. But you've seen. You know, it's also sort of like text messages. Come back from the pub, mate.

[Greg Jenner]

But not all women wanted to have kids. And we know this because we have some Viking words, old Norse words. Chloe, do you know what a fanfluga is.

[Chloe Petz]

I want this bit to be able to go on Radio 4. So I will not be hazarding a guess what a fan pfluger is.

[Greg Jenner]

The context would be a gentleman comes a calling and the fanflueger says.

[Chloe Petz]

The fanfluger says, do you want to go out with me?

[Greg Jenner]

No. The fan fluger says, no, thanks, and runs. It literally means what? Dick deserter. You know, someone who. Yeah. Someone who runs away from penises. Someone who just legs it away from the moment a penis appears.

[Chloe Petz]

So that's like. Like you go, you're a fan fluger.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

It wouldn't be a compliment.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But I think we should reclaim it.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah. I'm definitely claiming that I'm going clubbing on Saturday night and I'm gonna go around calling a lot of people some fan flugers and they'll be very glad.

[Greg Jenner]

And there's a. There's an equivalent for a chap who doesn't perhaps want to have fun times with a lady.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

A foothflogie.

[Greg Jenner]

So foofluggi would be what, Fanny flea? So the Vikings are very. They're very basic in their language. Right. And there's a poetry to it.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But the interesting thing about that is that, you know, we talked about sort of like pagan context and sort of gods. The gods are all sort of. I liked, you know, what's it, the. The drag queen. Bimni bonboullash, like gender bender, system offender. Right. Those are the Norse gods, particularly Loki.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

We've got Loki, who essentially is able to transform himself into a handmaiden to go and sort of rescue a hammer. Transforms himself into a mare.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

To lure away a giant stallion for a bit of sexy time. And ends up giving birth to an eight legged horse known as Sleipnir.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, Loan as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Sleipnir, the eight naked flying horse. So we're getting an idea here. In some ways, Viking gender, very, very fixed. In other ways, kind of fluid. So it's kind of interesting. Right. But let's get back to a woman's work. You know, the kind of daily domestic. She's not just obviously giving birth next generation. There's a lot she's got to look after in the house. Like she. There's quite a lot of responsibilities. Some would say agency and power.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

You said when we had our zoom call, you said responsibilities.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes, I think agency, yes. Power, it depends. So it's this idea of, you know, you. You have agency within the household, but it's whether that translates to outside. So. And it's not that it never does. It's just. It's always that thing of, like, you don't want to say, say. Yeah. Basically, the Viking age was a feminist utopia, because it's like, I don't think I would have wanted to be a woman there compared to what I can be now, you know. But, yes, definitely. So they're very much in charge of the household. The household isn't just sort of immediate family or relatives. You know, you've got. You've got quite a community, depending on how big this farmstead is. You've got responsibilities for making sure everyone stays alive throughout the winters. You've got to be able to cook, but you've got to be able to store food. You're going to be looking after the farmsteads, as I said before. You're going to be textile production, medicine. Exactly. So that's the other. And again, yeah. So there's a really interesting episode from Heimskringler, which is sort of a big group of king sagas, essentially, where there's a battle, someone's injured, and they go into the tent and there's a healing woman there, and she basically feeds them this mixture of sort of garlic and herbs and nasty stuff. Because the idea is that once you eat it, if you can sort of smell the garlic from the wound, you know it's gone through and it's sort of a fatal wound, essentially.

[Chloe Petz]

Because that's one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life. I think I'd rather just not know. But that is actually just die, not stink in a garden.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

That's what the character says. He's like, no, I'm cool, thanks very much. Nah, you keep your garlic suit. But the fact is, there's women in there doing that. There's also sort of religious aspect. There's a type of sort of magic called seidr. And again, we're back in sort of more pagan context here. That woman is particularly meant to practice. The old Norse word for a female practitioner of magic, or seeress, is a vulva. So there you go. Yes. So is that where we get that it's spelled differently? Really differently, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Probably just coincidence in it. But say the magic would be prophecy. Right. Predicting the future, seeing.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly. And what's interesting is that within a pagan God's context, who's it doing that? Odin. So once again, there's a lot of sort of fluidity there that we don't see. And then, of course, there's sort of textile production, which is just like. I know it sounds Boring to keep on going on about, but it's so important. Like, if we didn't have textile production, we would all be sitting here next naked.

[Greg Jenner]

Right?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

It's like we would. Nothing happens.

[Greg Jenner]

And we get a strongly worded email from hr, wouldn't we? But.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, but there's. There's a special sort of women's quarters called the dinghya. And the dinghya, it's. It's not necessarily just for textile production, but in the archaeological record all over the Norse world. So Greenland is a really good example of this. You see these sort of textile production spaces where you have women, where you have children. There's one, and this is from Norse Greenland, where you have this whole sort of knotted platform, piece of beautiful blonde hair, really long, that's basically like human hair. It's been made into sort of a necklace or something and tucked into the corner of this dinghy. Sagas again have episodes where, you know, women sit there talking about, for example, their former lovers, in one case, where one of the husbands hears. Doesn't go, well.

[Greg Jenner]

So the dinghy is a sort of. It's like a stitch and bitch session, but also. But a slightly. It's bit like sort of the ladies toilets, maybe on a night out where you're sort of.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, you go in there for private space. And in terms of weaving, it's not just humans who are doing the weaving. The gods weave, too. Do you know what the gods would weave with when they were determining people's futures? Oh, clouds. Oh, that's. Oh, that's charming.

[Chloe Petz]

That's beautiful.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, you're so wrong, but it's.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

No, I'm gonna say you're not so wrong.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Because you've got these supernatural beings called the norns, the Nornir. There's these three, and they're responsible for weaving the. The fates of humans, essentially. I like to think. Yeah, they're basically just like pulling down threads from the clouds. So I'm like, totally with you there.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, but that's a nastier one. Yeah. Come on.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's have the gory one.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Right, so the gory one, it's Valkyries this time, you know? Right. That's how we know Valkyries on their horses, blah, blah, blah. Right. And there is an episode from, again, it's in Yao Saga. It's where essentially, on the night before a battle, someone sees these women going into one of these dinghy, one of these weaving rooms. He peeps inside. Well, and he sees them and they're singing as they weave on this Big loom. But what it is is that the entrails of the dead and there's like kind of heads hanging from the.

[Greg Jenner]

So that's the loom weights are severed heads.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly. The loom weights. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

The thread is just guts. Yeah, just Viking guts.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah. That is his Viking. Do you still want to be a Viking?

[Chloe Petz]

Look for the beer. Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Chloe Petz]

For the using guts in a loom, I'm gonna say, no fair, I'm out on that.

[Greg Jenner]

Do women go out on the ships? Right, so we've heard them at home. They're doing the farming, they're doing the medicine, they're doing the weaving, they're looking after the kids. But like do they get on long ships and go and settle? Iceland and Greenland? Yeah, absolutely. They.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

This is really important. So Iceland, we've already talked about this like matriarch at the beginning. One of the widows who goes out there. Una, the deep minded. Greenland is a really interesting. So Greenland gets settled first of all from Iceland in sort of Eric the Red. It's kind of 985 or something. And there are women. Absolutely. Going out there to settle. There's a rune stick that they found in one of the graveyards from Greenland and it's not got a body in it but. But it says, you know, this woman, she died on the Greenland Sea. So basically she died on the journey over. You also then have women going even further west. So again, this is sort of sagas, but in the, in the sagas that talk about the voyages from Greenland to the edge of the North American continent, you have a woman called Gudridir giving birth to a child called Snorri out there. Yeah, exactly. Very much part of that cultural sphere.

[Greg Jenner]

You've mentioned enslavement already. And you know, I think, think throughout history there's going to be enslavement and so on. There are stories that we, I mean we have to sort of talk about them. They are horrible and you know, comedy podcasts and all that. But we just for a brief moment, if we could just sort of. If we can just hear the very, very nasty, horrible story about what Ibn Fadlan describes seeing. So he is a. I mean, he's an Arab diplomat who meets Vikings.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

He's a very important source for us. Yes, he describes a very horrible future funeral.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, exactly. So this is around 921, something like that. He's coming up from Baghdad with this diplomatic corps and they're on the Volga and they come across this group that are known as the Rus and the Rus are of Nordic heritage.

[Greg Jenner]

Swedish or Swedish heritage.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, for the most part. Exactly. So that's where they come. But then there's sort of very big Slavic populations that they very quickly assimilate with. So we can't say these are definite Vikings in that sort of what we might think of, or Norse, but certainly of that heritage. And one of their leaders has died and they're having a big funeral. And it's one of the very few sources that describe sort of a ship burning, you know, that kind of Hollywood idea of how Viking funerals go. But it is one of those. The problem is that what they also ask for is a volunteer with. With a lot of sort of air quotes. Air quotes, yeah. To join their master in paradise. And it's. It's. It's really horrible. So basically, this sort of young enslaved girl is. Is volunteers, and she's sort of ritually sort of raped and then stabbed and killed. And there's this horrible figure called the angel of Death, this woman who basically is responsible for that. And then finally she's placed on the pyre next to the dead man, together with all these sort of sacrificed animals and other things. And then it's set fire to. And Ibn Fadlan is. Is extraordinary. There's no other source like it. He doesn't just talk about that, but it's the. The level of detail. It's. It's really. It's. It's very disturbing to read.

[Greg Jenner]

It's incredibly important source for us because he tells us all sorts of things about, you know, Viking washing customs and so on, which is very interesting. But that particular story is so upsetting. You know, I remember as a history student reading, going, oh, that's really, really troubling.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly. And the thing is, archaeologically that is then reflected. So there's Isle of Man, there's a. There's a Viking burial of man, but a woman appears to have been sort of like, killed and then put into the pyre with.

[Greg Jenner]

So, yeah, so sorry about that, Chloe. I know we're a comedy show.

[Chloe Petz]

I could have just sort of done some comedy sound effects throughout that. Would that have helped?

[Greg Jenner]

Probably not. Let's. Let's get back to sort of comedy mode. Let's talk about the lives of the rich Viking women, the elite. Elite.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I've got a favorite here. Okay, so this is Norway. Oseberg. So sort of southern Norway. Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

The classic.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

The classic. But it's. There's a reason it's an oldie and it's a goodie. Right. So this is one of the, the most sumptuous burials. It's a ship burial. It hasn't been burnt, but these two. A what?

[Chloe Petz]

Burial ship.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you. What did you hear?

[Chloe Petz]

Really bad burial. Absolutely rubbish burial burial.

[Greg Jenner]

One of the worst I've ever seen.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

These two women have been placed in it. One of them is really quite old, sort of over 70. The other sort of late middle age, kind of maybe in her 50s. But it's, there's nothing like it. You know, there's, there's wagons all like beautifully carved with cats and faces and possibly the cats, you know, that's that sort of the classically linked to Freyja, one of the goddesses. There's, there's wagons, there's, there's beautiful things like sort of buckets and like sacrificed horses and I mean it, there is nothing like it in terms of the amount of stuff that has been placed into it. They can even tell exactly what time of year this initial. Yeah. Crab apples have been found.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, beautiful.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But also talking of this sort of organic material, henbane seeds. I think either henbane or cannabis. One of there's basically sort of that have hallucinogenic properties.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So you start to think, okay, what's going on here? What, who were these women? And there's also this incredible tapestry. Beautiful. Look closely, you see the trees are full of hanging bodies.

[Greg Jenner]

Right. So sorry, these ladies sound terrified.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

You think, what a lovely granny. Hang on a minute. Cannabis. Hang on. Dead bodies. What?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

This is the woman I want to meet from the Viking age. I'm like, I could have fun with you.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

But that's it. They're so elite, high status. It used to be thought that one of the was a queen. The other one may be her. We could say handmaiden. She could be an enslaved person. A little bit of DNA evidence suggests that her ancestors, the younger one, might have come from somewhere around what's now Iran. But it's been quite hard to replicate that evidence because so little material left. But so it's very much this sense of these high status women possibly with some sort of magical position in society.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, the. See the thing maybe or the, you know, hallucinogenic medicine.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, obviously we have rich Christian widows who leave money to the church. They found nunneries and churches and monasteries and they build bridges and churches and roads. You know, they're kind of putting back into the community, which is amazing too. But we need to talk about Olga of Kyiv.

[Chloe Petz]

Of course we do. It's very important.

[Greg Jenner]

She's one of the Most.

[Chloe Petz]

I was getting antsy.

[Greg Jenner]

You were thinking, when are we getting to Olga of Kyiv? I mean, again, listeners might be thinking. Thinking Keeves in Ukraine.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, the Vikings really get very far afield. Olga of Keef, Chloe, how did she get revenge on the men who killed her husband?

[Chloe Petz]

I guess she killed him back. I'm thinking of a sort of. I'm thinking of a sort of John Wicks, right. Kind of scenario where I think she's. Yeah. She's gathered up all of her weapons.

[Greg Jenner]

Like ballerina, like.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, exactly like ballerina. Maybe she, like, kills them.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

What.

[Chloe Petz]

What did John Wick kill in, like, John Wick 3? He kills him with books or something like that.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I mean, it's not far off. I mean, if anything, she's more badass than that. Olga, by the way, sounds like a very sort of Slavic name. It's actually old Norse. Olga is helga.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

10Th century. And she is sort of. Her husband is called Igor. Again, very Norse name. Doesn't sound it, but Ingvar. Norse name.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

He is killed by sort of a local tribe called the Drevlian. They've got beef with them.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So Olga then says, oh, ambassadors, please come see me.

[Chloe Petz]

Did she make a pie?

[Greg Jenner]

Did she bake a pie?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

There are pies in Norse. Not this one. There are Norse. There are women who bake their children. Okay, we're not even gonna go there.

[Chloe Petz]

I'm still gonna get.

[Greg Jenner]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

No, no, stick with Olga. She's got Olga. Okay, so the first lot. Yeah. She basically buries the ambassadors alive. Okay.

[Chloe Petz]

How?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, it's all there in, I think, the sources from the sort of the 12th century. So it's maybe slightly exaggerated. But then the next lot, she lures the nobleman. She's like, oh, please come. Please come have a bath.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, have a sauna, isn't it? Come have a sauna. Come have a nice spiking sauna.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

And she locks them in the sauna, and then she sets fire to him.

[Greg Jenner]

Yep, yep.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

So that's the next lot. And then she just for good measure, burns the whole settlement to the ground, Escaping John Wick. Escaping John Wick.

[Greg Jenner]

And then she converts to Christianity and. And it's made a saint. So she.

[Chloe Petz]

Well, you know, if you're gonna get forgiven, if you like.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

If you're gonna.

[Chloe Petz]

If you're gonna convert to Christianity and get forgiven for all your sins, then I think I would just, like, really sin.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Do you know what I mean?

[Chloe Petz]

Like, I'm not just doing, like, you know, I've worn mixed Fabrics. I'm doing like, I've killed. I've killed all of my husband's murderers.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Okay. So Olga's bloody revenge leads us nicely to the. The warrior which women who we would have seen in TV shows. So I mentioned Vikings. I mentioned, you know, the last Kingdom. It's a bit of a trope. Yeah. Kind of shield maiden thing.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Is that pure Hollywood? Do we have any evidence for women going into battle?

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, it's not pure Hollywood. We've got some sort of later legendary mythological sources where you have this idea of shield maidens coming quite strong and they're really cool. So there's a skeleton found on the island of Birka in Sweden. Very important sort of trading settlement in that period. People always thought, oh, well, that's a man. Because it was buried with weapons. Weapons.

[Greg Jenner]

It was found in the 19th century.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

So for well over 100 years, we.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Were like, yeah, exactly. Then 2017, they look at the DNA and there's. It's female DNA. They're like, oh, okay. So but the question is then.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, no one checked.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, to be fair, I don't think they had DNA sampling in the 19th century. Yeah. To be fair to them. But it's the fact that, yeah, you see one thing and you assume that's what it must be. Yeah. Now that doesn't mean that. That a. She was a practicing warrior. There's all sorts of possibilities.

[Greg Jenner]

She's buried with swords and all the kind of accoutrement of a warrior.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly, exactly. And it's possible that she. What we would call the terms don't really apply, but we need to sort of fight. She. She was sort of non binary or she. She kind of presented as more male than, you know, there's, that's, there's sort of possibilities there.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

There's also the possibility that, yes, she was a warrior, but it's like there's no evidence of sort of healed injuries and there's no evidence. Sense of, you know, you often see sort of one arm is bigger than the other because they're used to wielding weapons. So you don't have that. It's possible that say her father was a warrior and she's the only surviving child or something. And so therefore she becomes the encapsulation of that warrior lineage. There's all sorts of possibilities.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

It doesn't make it. I think it makes it more exciting. Yeah. We don't.

[Greg Jenner]

We don't know. Right. We have this fascinating burial and we've got. And so science has gone. It's not what you think. And now we've got question marks. And question marks are exciting.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Exactly.

[Greg Jenner]

But we don't. We can't pin it down. There could be multiple identities to this person or, you know, one. But it's. It's really interesting. And that's how archaeological science is changing quite a lot of what we think of the Vikings in some ways.

[Chloe Petz]

I guess what's so interesting also about history is, like, we're always reading it through our own very partial lens. And I think we're in a moment now where, like, we probably want to go the other way and have women as, like, these dark, like, total independent badasses, because a. We're sort of like in a feminist rewriting of history. But also, I think there's also an element of, like, men find hot Viking women wielding swords titillating.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. It's definitely a niche corner of the Internet that's dedicated to that. Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

So it's simultaneously like an incre. Like a feminist reading of history, but also quite a patriarchal.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. The lads want blunt warriors. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah. With, like, sort of like shells over their boobs or something.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. But it's. I think what we've learned so far, you know, it's. Women could be all sorts of different things. Yeah, exactly. And the evidence points in different directions.

[Chloe Petz]

And we like that place on record that women can be all sorts of things.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance wind. Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Chloe and I weave in the dingy art for two minutes while Dr. Eleanor spins us a yarn about something we need to know about Viking women. My stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Elena.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Well, I think Chloe's pretty much done it for me because I want to pick up on exactly that last point that you've been talking about. And it ties us back also to the images that, you know, Greg, you conjured up at the beginning. It's sort of like Valkyrie shield maidens hotness, or not so hot. You know, it's like. It's feminine, and it's also sort of quite reductive. And that's. It's a really tricky thing because there's a reason we love that. Right. They're badass. I didn't go into Viking age history because I want to sort of look at textile production. I mean, don't get me wrong, plenty of people do, but I didn't. I like the badass stuff. Right. But there is an issue there which is when we look back in time, especially at this sort of like stereotypical hyper masculine eras, such as the Viking age, it's that idea that almost women are only exciting or interesting or worth talking about if they're aping male role models and sort of quite extreme ones at that. And what I'm trying to do in Embers of the Hands, this book, it's like meet ordinary humans on their own terms. And that's particularly true of the women. It's a way to find, you know, it's hard to bring their stories to life not by shoving swords or axes in their hands, but by. But, you know, although that does happen. In fact, there's one saga where a woman actually says, put an axe in my hand. Okay, so that, that does happen there. But I think historically speaking, women actually deserve better than that because their lives are so much more nuanced and multi dimensional, more varied than these cartoon stereotypes. And so for me, that is my nuance window. That women themselves are nuanced. And when we look back in history and these hyper masculine periods of history, from our perspective perspectives, it's even more important meet them on their own terms. Brilliantly.

[Greg Jenner]

Any final thoughts on that? Oh, applause, You've got a clap.

[Chloe Petz]

And you've got. I can see you've got 25 seconds left, so I'll do quite a long one.

[Greg Jenner]

Cook me do a really long one.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Yeah, there we go. I want those 25 seconds of clapping.

[Greg Jenner]

25. It's like a standing ovation at can. We're just like. Very good, very good nuance window. So what do you know now? It's time now for the so what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Chloe to see how much they've learned. Chloe, how are you feeling? Confident.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, I've been listening nicely. It's all been incredibly engaging. I think I've understood everything and I think it's committed to my short term memory.

[Greg Jenner]

If we did it, if we did.

[Chloe Petz]

This in a week, it would be a solid 0 out of 10.

[Greg Jenner]

That's a real caveat, that short term memory. Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

But at the moment, I'm an expert. For the next 10 minutes, I'm an expert.

[Greg Jenner]

You know what? I'll take it. That's absolutely fine. Okay, I got 10 questions for you. Good luck. Question one, what was done about unwanted female children in some Viking communities?

[Chloe Petz]

Is the first answer gonna be in fantasy?

[Greg Jenner]

It is, yeah. As I said, comedy show.

[Chloe Petz]

That's lovely, that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it is in fantasy. Charming. Yep. Question two, what passive aggressive message did cross Viking wife Gyda send her husband on a rune stick in Bergen?

[Chloe Petz]

You're drunk. Come home.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, it was very good. Come home from the pub. Question 3. Which Norse de associated with cats might pregnant women have prayed to during childbirth?

[Chloe Petz]

Freyja.

[Greg Jenner]

It was Freyja. And also Flig sometimes as well. Question 4. Name two everyday jobs that an average Viking woman, if such a thing existed, might have done.

[Chloe Petz]

Storing food and textiles.

[Greg Jenner]

Very good. Yes, absolutely. You could add cooking, healing, looking after the kids. Question 5. What was the dingja?

[Chloe Petz]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

What was the dinghy?

[Greg Jenner]

It was a space place for weaving. It was. And chatting and gossiping. Very good. Well done.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, it's women. It's always chatting and gossiping. Wherever there's women, there's chatting and gossiping as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Question 6. What unorthodox materials do the mythical valkyries in Njaldsaga weave with? It's not clouds.

[Chloe Petz]

It'S human entrails.

[Greg Jenner]

It was. Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

I loved.

[Chloe Petz]

I really love the word intros. I think it's one of the words that I love the most, but hate what it is the most. Do you see what I mean? Like, I like the sound.

[Greg Jenner]

You like the sound, and then you see it and go, no, thank you.

[Chloe Petz]

Fair enough. Yeah, I often see it and say, no, thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Question 7. What does the old Norse word fanfluga mean?

[Chloe Petz]

Like running away from a peniser.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Very good. A lady who legs it from penises. Yes, absolutely. Very good. Well done. Question 8. The two women interred in the Oseberg ship burial were buried with a wagon finely decorated with. Which animal?

[Chloe Petz]

Cats.

[Greg Jenner]

It was cats. Well done. How did Olga of Kyiv allegedly avenge the murder of her husband?

[Chloe Petz]

She lured all of the murderers to a sauna and burned them alive.

[Greg Jenner]

She did. And then became a saint, which is what a classic second act that is. And this for a perfect 10 out of 10.

[Chloe Petz]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

What is one theory about the person buried in the Birka grave?

[Chloe Petz]

Oh, no.

[Greg Jenner]

They were discovered in 19th century and thought to be a man, but they weren't.

[Chloe Petz]

They were a woman who might have been a warrior.

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. Very good. Yes, various. Various interpretations. Perfect 10 out of 10. Chloe. Oh, wow. We'll come back in a week and we'll check and we'll see.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, well, we won't be. What's a Viking? Who's Greg?

[Greg Jenner]

Who's Greg? What is this? What day is it? Well done. 10 out of 10. You feeling that you. You learned some stuff?

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, I am feeling really good about that. I also know that I'm too competitive as a person and I'm trying to really rehabilitate that. So I think the thing that I won most at was being a really chill guy.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I mean, you were great. If you've got eight out of 10, you probably would have, like come at us with a sword and.

[Chloe Petz]

Yeah, I would have flipped the table.

[Greg Jenner]

Lot of sin and burned it alive. Like older. Yeah.

[Chloe Petz]

Lovely stuff, as you deserve.

[Greg Jenner]

Thanks so much, Chloe. And also, of course, thank you Dr. Elena Barraclaf, listener. If you want more Vikings, check out our episode on Leif Ericson. Also we have one on Norse literature, which is lots of fun. K Curd. And for more warrior women, why not listen to our episode on Njinka of Ndomo and Matamba, which is good fun as well. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds to get the episodes 28 days earlier than on any other app, switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you. Thank you to our guests. In History Corner we have the excellent Dr. Eleanor Barraclough from Bath Spa University. Thank you, Eleanor.

[Dr. Eleanor Barraclough]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy corner we have the incredible Chloe pets. Thank you, Chloe.

[Chloe Petz]

That was amazing. Thank you so much to you both.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we unearth more buried historical secrets. But for now, I'm off the gun. Suggest entrail weaving as a fun craft activity for my daughter's school. Bye. You're detected me to BBC Strike Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Hello, my name is Alex von Tanselman and I want to introduce you to History's Heroes, the BBC's breathtaking high stakes story led podcast. Shining a light on extraordinary people and ordinary people who become extreme extraordinary, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers.

[Narrator (History's Heroes)]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sunny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

And the woman who created the international charity Save the Children. Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds. This is history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

[Narrator (History's Heroes)]

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Join me Alex von Tunzelman for History's Hero. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.