Tim Spector (4:30)

And, Rich, can you tell me a bit about, I guess, what your diet looked like before you were climbing up those stairs? And then tell me, like, what did you change maybe at the, you know, over the next. I don't know whether this was a instantaneous or this was the year. What did it look like? By the end of the year, I.

Rich Roll (4:46)

Was on what you would call the window diet. Do you know what the window diet is?

Tim Spector (4:50)

Tell me about the window diet.

Rich Roll (4:50)

The window diet is when you drive up to a fine dining establishment, you roll the window down, and they hand you food into your car. That was the diet that I was on. So a lot of fast food, a lot of late night takeout in the law firm in which I was working as a lawyer, Pizza Hut, Domino's, McDonald's, Jack in the box, cheeseburgers, fries, you name it, you tried them all I tried them all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of greasy food. So it was a big shift to actually go fully plant based. And I did it almost as an experiment to prove to myself that it wouldn't work. So I could make peace with the fact that I just felt the way that I felt and this is the way I'm supposed to feel and was not expecting the sort of dramatic shift in how I felt.

Zoe Recap Host (5:35)

So.

Rich Roll (5:35)

But I tried a bunch of stuff. I dabbled in paleo, I tried vegetarian. I sort of checked a bunch of boxes. And the one thing that I hadn't done because I was reluctant to do it was to go entirely plant based because it sounded hard. It was like, who wants to do that? It just sounded difficult. And I couldn't imagine how I could ever be full or sated with anything that I was eating. So I did it kind of as a challenge again to prove that it wouldn't work. Cause I really didn't want it to work. That's the truth. So I was as surprised as anyone when it actually seemed to resuscitate me.

Zoe Recap Host (6:08)

If you're going to describe the key.

Tim Spector (6:10)

Components of that diet, because I think it's sort of quite powerful what you're describing about this shift so fast. What was the.

Rich Roll (6:16)

It was eating plant foods as close to their natural state as possible. So limiting exposure to processed foods, trying to reduce the oil intake and just grazing on as many varieties of plant foods as possible. Home cooked and nominally limited processing.

Tim Spector (6:41)

It wasn't raw particularly.

Rich Roll (6:42)

No, I didn't go. I never went totally raw. I ate a lot of raw foods, started doing a lot of smoothies, the base of which was always dark leafy greens, but keeping it pretty simple. A lot of legumes, a lot of beans, a lot of quinoa. And variety, I think making sure that I was getting a lot of variety on the plate.

Tim Spector (7:04)

When you're thinking about Rich's really dramatic change in diet, I love this from the window diet to the plant based diet. That's definitely two quite extreme shifts. How might that have impacted his microbiome and what were the implications from that for his health? And I guess what Rich was describing.

Tim Spector (7:20)

To us, when we see someone shifting from a really poor diet to a really good diet, there have been a number of small studies and population studies and some Zoe studies show you do see a really rapid change in the gut microbes. So probably you could see it imagine enrich within a week if we tested you at the time as you transitioned from the junk food diet to the plant based diet. And when we get ZOE members having their personalized nutrition program, those that are adhering to it are seeing effects within a few weeks on their gut microbes. And it all fits because those same people, although it takes for us to detect it several weeks to see it, probably the changes are earlier because mood and energy in all our ZOE studies also improve within a week. So if you ask them, you can see differences in mood and energy, whether it's just by shifting your diet or it's having some like prebiotics, you can see these changes. The mood and energy comes first actually before you see the actual changes in the gut microbes. Which again goes back to this idea of how important the gut and the brain are. And energy is the one thing that doctors don't ask about, but actually is perhaps the most important global feature of how you're feeling that I think needs much more medical attention. So yeah, in summary, these things can happen really fast, particularly if you're moving from a bad place to a good place. If you are on a really good diet and you just want to incrementally do, would be harder to see that and the differences would be more subtle. But anyone who's on a poor diet, really, they make that effort, they will see results very, very fast.

Tim Spector (9:11)

When is it too late, Tim? So, you know, here we're talking about making a change of 40. You're describing like a really dramatic change here, right? So that you're saying the microbiome changes rapidly, like in a big way, and then you're saying the health outcome changes in a big way. When's it too late?

Tim Spector (9:26)

There's no evidence that it's ever too late. Because what you're doing, Even if you're 90 and you suddenly say, you know, I've been lucky, maybe on the window diet, but I've. And there are these people that, you know, smoke and drink and have terrible food and they're lucky they get there but you know, they want to keep going. They can improve their gut microbe just as well as someone age 40 by making that change. And they will also see improvements in their mood and energy because we're talking about instant changes in these microbes producing chemicals. And these chemicals can instantly impact your brain and your immune system. So it's not like you've got to wait for vessels to rebuild or some major changes to structure to happen. This is what's so great about the microbiome and lifestyle is it all happens in real time. And that's why it's so much Nicer to talk about this than what I used to talk about genetics, because that really, really is slow. It's like, well, several generations on, they'll be really reaping the benefits here.

Zoe Recap Host (10:41)

And could you explain a little this.

Tim Spector (10:44)

Mood and the food? Because I think a lot of people listening to this and I think they sort of understand that you can like somehow, you know, improve your heart and this makes sense. But the mood thing seems rather magical. Like, does science understand what's going on?

Tim Spector (11:00)

Well, we understand a little bit of it, but we're probably just scraping the surface of what these microbes can do, what the chemicals they can produce. But it basically comes from the chemicals they produce. As I said, they're chemical factories. They produce brain chemicals, for example, like serotonin, really important for brain and enjoyment and happiness and calm. They also produce things like gaba, which is equivalent of a Valium tablet. And body can't produce much of this stuff, so most of it comes from the gut microbes. So they will be producing these chemicals which then get passed over into and picked up by receptors in the brain which will change those moods. Similarly, the effect on the immune system, we would damp down inflammation and then the brain suddenly senses, oh, there's no inflammation going on here. I don't have to be in this rather depressed state thinking I'm ill. Because the brain is just like a giant program. It's predicting what's going on. It's not often it's wrong. We think the brain is always right, but actually it's just another organ in the body and sometimes it gets these algorithms wrong. So that's what I think that would explain these changes and why a change, getting rid of a terrible diet has such a profound rapid effect on people. And the brain is perhaps the first thing to pick it up because it's not getting those sickness signals from the rest of the body.

Tim Spector (12:34)

I'd love to talk about how do you find the motivation to start a change and how do you find the motivation to stick to a long term health chain?

Rich Roll (12:43)

I think the first thing I would say to that is to kind of challenge the presumption here, which is that you need motivation in order to take action. Like, how do I find the motivation? You mentioned willpower earlier. Like how do I find the willpower to do all these things that you're telling me to do? And I think that assumption that you need motivation or willpower and you're kind of sitting around waiting for it is something that keeps people paralyzed in bad habits. And I have a mantra that I use that I think is very helpful. And again, it's something I learned in recovery. And it goes like this. Mood follows action. So rather than waiting until you're struck with inspiration, what is the thing that you can do right now? And the mood that is the motivation is a product of taking the action. And this is something that's validated in neuroscience. Behavior, first thoughts, feelings, and emotions follow. So it's about kind of reversing that equation in your mind and breaking down again, everything into tiny, actionable items. So there's a wonderful book called Atomic Habits that you've probably heard of by James Clear. And he always says, habits are the compound interest of self improvement. So you always default to your habits, and if you want to make a habit change, break it down into its tiniest sort of elements. And so when you think of, oh, my God, I have to change my diet for the rest of my life, it's all very daunting and, like I said earlier, intimidating. So I'm always encouraging people to start with very easy lifts, like, lower the ceiling on your expectations, broaden your timeline, or forget about a timeline altogether and just take one tiny little thing, like maybe, Tim, you can get rid of the fermented dairy in your fridge and replace it with something else that might be a little bit healthier. And that's all you're doing. Just go into your pantry and you know what? All these chips in here, I'm just gonna take them out of the house. Maybe you didn't. That was all you did that day. But you chalked up an easy win. So I think it's about assembling a lot of easy wins. And when you just kind of focus on tiny little things that you can master, that does have a compounding effect. And when you teach yourself that you can do that and you make that one little change, you're like, oh, I did that. And now that's really not an issue for me anymore. What else can I do? Let's move on to the next thing. And you just kind of build on these things. I believe that that is really how you make change. So it's about the tiny little daily habits that you're almost reflexively or unconsciously kind of indulging every single day and drawing attention to those, rather than making dramatic, wide, sweeping statements like, yes, I went plant all that kind of stuff. But I don't think that's how it really works for most people. And I think kind of just gradually leaning into this as a process rather than a result. Driven by this day. I have to weigh this much. I think you're in better stead to then adopt habits with staying power because this is really all about sustainability and having it all kind of work in the construct of we all have busy lives and we're all kind of doing lots of different things, so how can you create an environment that's conducive to making the healthy choices and chalk up those little wins with small little habits that you can build upon?

Zoe Recap Host (16:28)

As you can imagine hosting this podcast, running Zoe, juggling family life. It all keeps me pretty busy. So I try as best I can to stay energized and show up well in all those parts of my life by fueling my body with the right food, by exercising, and by adding a scoop of daily 30 to my meals every day. If you haven't heard of Daily 30 yet, it's the gut supplement designed by our gut health scientists here at Zoe. It's made of over 30 high quality hand picked plants including seaweed, fungi and different types of fiber. Better yet, it contains ingredients that support gut health, digestion and energy, which is ideal for packed calendars and busy lives. Simply add one scoop a day to any meal for an extra boost of fiber and plant diversity. And because it tastes delicious on just about anything and adds a satisfying crunch, it quite quickly slots into your life, becoming a daily healthy habit you'll always have time for. By the way, whenever we talk about Daily 30 as a good source of fiber, we're required to say that it contains 4 grams of total fat per serving. Obviously that's all amazing healthy fats from plants, so order yours today@zoe.com daily30. Thanks for listening and see you next time.